U11 Ultimate Epic HP Tank Guide (Dwarven THF Version/S&B Defender)

[Shade]

Work in Progress:
Not quite done this guide, but wanted to get it out there. Will hear suggestions and fixes to any errors, and do some more updates soon. But should be useful to get you started, enjoy.

THF Version allows slightly better hitpoints, and more sword and board DPS with dwarven axes.
TWF Version here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344635)

Intro:
Been getting a lot of requests for a Fighter build, and I'm starting one soon, this is my plan. Also setting this up as a recommended guide for other players wanting to make pretty much the ultimate endgame tank for the hardest content in the game - especially designed with Lord of Blades/Master Artificer Epic in mind.

Build goals - what this build is NOT:

Absolutely not a focus on being a "AC Tank". AC is utterly ineffective in the hardest endgame content, so building for it simply does not make sense on a character with these goals, even if the PrE selected does offer some bonuses. There are a ton of other considerations for a tank so this is one that will be skipped.
Not recommended for casual players. Arrmor class is useful in casual/normal dungeons, and by players who don't have the skill or time to learn other forms of damage mitigation, and as such this build is not recommended to those players. That said, the build will have be able to have a reasonable AC regardless for the lower lvls while your still learning.
Top DPS. While there will be as little as possible sacrifices to DPS, obviously a half orc kensai/berserker will do much better.
An easy to play build - playing a tank well is very difficult and require a ton of gear. This guide is aimed more at veterans or new players looking to put a lot of time and effort into there character.

Build goals - what this build is aiming for:

Ultimate hitpoints - 1200+ expected
Massive threat generation
Great Saves
Great DR
Functional, if not maxxed intimidate
Great THF DPS with any two hander (especially axes), and Very solid S&B DPS with Dwarven Axes


So yea, if you want a build that makes the easy content a joke cuz your AC is high enough to make things whiff - build is not for you. If you want to start building the ultimate tank for epic raids - make this character.

Race:
Dwarf:

+2 con, full racial toughness, dwarven spell resistance for up to +5 saves, higher balance skill (great for MA)
Top hitpoints, Top healing amp, exactly what a epic tank needs.

Ideal race for this.
Alternatives here are Human (Better healing amp, decent hp), Half-Orc (ultimate DPS with some defensive sacrifices). Guides gona cover dwarf, but you can adapt it to these races and they can certainly work. Halforc needs more gear to make up for the lower hp tho.

Alignment:
True Neutral. It's the only correct choice for a tank. You want to reduce your incoming damage as much as possible, and this is the only race with advantages in that - eg: Immune to anarchic, axiomatic, and can use superior stability items.

Stats
(36 point build - As thats what im planning for this, but 34/32 can work, see below for those)
(Stat - Amount - Build Point Cost during creation)
Str 17 - Cost: 13 points (All Level up points go here)
Dex 11 - Cost: 3 points
Con 20 - Cost: 16 points
Int 11 - Cost: 3 points
Wis 8 - None
Cha 7 - Cost: 1 point

34 point version (Has some sacrifices, but still works)
Str 17 - Cost: 13 points (All Level up points go here)
Dex 12 - Cost: 4 points
Con 19 - Cost: 13 points
Int 11 - Cost: 3 points
Wis 8 - None
Cha 7 - Cost: 1 point

32 point version (Still works, but I recommend you start off with one of my barbarian builds for first life, as the bbn PL is ultra useful to this build)
Str 17 - Cost: 13 points (All Level up points go here)
Dex 12 - Cost: 4 points
Con 18 - Cost: 10 points
Int 11 - Cost: 3 points
Wis 8 - None
Cha 8 - Cost: 2 points

Stat Analysis:
Str 17 = +5 level ups.. While I hate sacrifcing even a single point of strenght on a melee build, it's really neccesary here, as you otherwise have to lose too much hitpoints or skill points to max it.
lvl points: No brainer on all melee builds. If you want to tank, you need to build up threat and dps, you can't do that without great strength. Especially considering -2 to hit tower shield penalties for when you go sword and board.

Dex - Still have some points here because reflex save and balance skill is very important for a tank.
Con - Very important, fit everything we can in here. As every 2 con on a Defender is no longer just +20 hp, but now +24 hp with the +20% stance.
Int 11 - Skillpoints will be tight, but doable. Get that +2 int tome in at 7 to qualify for Improved trip (and combat expertise, but i dont recommend using that much)
Wis 8 - Will save can be important in a couple places, but unfortunately there's not many points to spread around.. And you can still attain a decent will save with good gear on a dwarf thanks to dwarven resistance.
Cha - 1-2 points here because ultimately a dead tank is not a good tank.. So getting silver flame potions and being able to help keep yourself alive is a huge asset.. This also helps with intimidate.

Ultimate Lvl20 Hit points (Includes crazy hard to get items as this is a TR build):
End Game Hit points since this is important:
200 - Pure Ftr lvl20
20 - Heroic Durability
10 - Draconic Vitality (Gianthold Favor)
10 - 1x Bbn PL free (36 pnt build could have 2x, but I'll just count 1 for now)
20 - Toughness enchantment from epic/minos
40 - Superior False Life (Epic Deneith Chain likely)
45 - Greensteel Item
260 - ~36 Con (Max geared, +4 tome)
= 605 Pre Feats
----- (Toughness Feats Selected 4x, bersker pl 1x)
108 - Toughness/PL Feats
80 - 8 Toughness Enhancements
= 793 Feated/Enhanced
----- (Maintainable situational Buffs)
40 - Yugoloth Potions* (20 from con and 20 from secret effect)
= 833 Over 800 Fairly easy to maintain HP.
Enter stance: +6 con +20%
= 1072 HP easily sustained.
---- (Artificer in the raid party!) ---
+10% from positive energy infusion
Grand total ultimate situational HP:
1180 Raidgroup Sustainable Hitpoints
----- (Unmaintainable situational Buffs)
40 - Madstone Single Con +4 (46) (Madstones here because it won't proc in stance)
40 - Madstone Double Con +4 (50) (You can double madstone, but must do it out of stance, then enter after)
40 - Hezrou Cookie
= 953 un stanced Situational
---- (Now lets enter our stance with the unmaintable buffs) ---
60 - +6 con from stance = 1013
+20% from Superior stance
1216 Hitpoints
---- +10% artificer buff:
1337 Burst hitpoints (Elite!)

(1400+ is possible from silly items like scourge choker, house d pots)

* Yugoloth +HP potions should not be used in general questing as it lowers your DPS by 5%. However for end game tanking I still recommend you drink them anytime your tanking, as you will not have trouble holding agro with the defender stances active.

Optimal Healing Amplification - Aside from hit points, shield mastery and saves, this is your foremost defense:
Finger Necklace - This is a hard to acquire high level item.. But a very good one, it provides another 10-12% healing, as it works in a strange way.
Actual "Healing Amp" There are 3 ranks, 10%, 20% and 30%. All 3 stack with each other, but 2 of the same will not stack (example leviks bracers + DT Tempest rune will not stack)
Ideal endgame gear to boost this:
DT Armor - source of 10% (wear this in the most critical deadly scenarios, otherwise wear epic deneith chain)
ToD Ring - source of 20%
Epic Gloves of the Claw - Source of 30%
Finger neck - equip this before the other 3 items.

With ship +10% and these 4 recommended items equiped you will have 207% effective healing amp. Full spec'd Heal scrolls can hit you for upwards of 450.

Recommended past lives to have:
Barbarian - +20 hp, +2 intimi, and the +10 free hp PL bonus are awesome things for a tank, Personally im going to have 2 PL bbn. But others work:
Ftr - +1 to hit and combat DCs are awesome
Pal - Extra healing amp makes you a better tank, plain and simple. Plus the active part is quite awesome: +3 hit/dmg for 6+ minutes

Feats (work in progress atm, some optimizations may happen):
1 - Stunning Blow
1 (Ftr) - Weapon Focus: Slashing
2 (Ftr) - Power attack
3 - Past Life: Berserkers Fury (Else: Pal PL, Else: Toughness)
4 (Ftr) - Shield Mastery
6 - Toughness (1)
6 (Ftr) - Two Handed Fighting
7 - +2 Int tome
8 (Ftr) - Combat Expertise (prereq for Improved Trip)
9 - Improved Trip
10 (Ftr) - Improved Shield Mastery
12 - Toughness (2)
12 (Ftr) - Improved Two Handed Fighting
14 - IC: Slashing
15 - Toughness (3)
16 (Ftr) - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Toughness (4) or Skill focus intim (if your short a few intim)
18 (Ftr) - Weapon Specialization: Slashing
20 (Ftr) - Greater Weapon Specialization

Also if at 20 you end up purely raiding on this build and not questing at all: Respec stunning blow with another toughness.. Can't stun bosses and it rarely comes into play in raid tanking I find.. Maybe stun the odd orthon that pops on you while tanking horoth, but thats it.

Feat Analysis:
Overall:
Solid THF DPS for when a shields not appropriate. (very high with ESoS)
Top hitpoints (+108 hp from feats)
Top dmg mitigation (Improved Shield Mastery = 25% reduction to all incoming physical damage, even when not blocking. Huge blocking DR as well. And great saves from dwarven spell resistance.)

lvl notes:
1 - Stun - Start with something useful
3 - Some quick hp, since its +20 hp at any level.
4 - Shield Mastery: pre req.. and useful too.
8 - Improved trip is far too useful to pass up and imo a big draw of the fighter class as none other can really fit it. Combat exp is a prereq. AC is not a focus of the build, so I'd say stay in power attack mode, but hey it couldnt hurt in certain scenarios.
12 + the main utility is done now, so rest is mostly hitpoints and dps
20 - More dps here, could change this around with some other things easily though.

Enhancement Order note: This is an endgame setup. It would be more ideal to spec less into hitpoints and more into tactics at lower levels.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1189/tankbuildenhancements.png

Text version:
Level 1 (AP: 4/4)
Fighter Haste Boost I
Dwarven Shield Mastery I
Dwarven Axe Damage I

Level 2 (AP: 8/8)
Dwarven Tactics I
Fighter Strength I

Level 3 (AP: 12/12)
Fighter Item Defense I
Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Improved Intimidate I
Fighter Toughness I

Level 4 (AP: 16/16)
Dwarven Spell Defense I
Racial Toughness I
Dwarven Constitution I

Level 5 (AP: 20/20)
Fighter Haste Boost II
Dwarven Shield Mastery II

Level 6 (AP: 23/24)
Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Improved Intimidate II

Level 7 (AP: 27/28)
Fighter Stalwart Defender I

Level 8 (AP: 32/32)
Dwarven Axe Attack I
Fighter Armor Class Boost III

Level 9 (AP: 34/36)
Fighter Item Defense II

Level 10 (AP: 40/40)
Dwarven Constitution II
Fighter Toughness II

Level 11 (AP: 43/44)
Fighter Toughness III

Level 12 (AP: 47/48)
Racial Toughness II
Fighter Stalwart Defender II

Level 13 (AP: 51/52)
Fighter Toughness IV

Level 14 (AP: 56/56)
Racial Toughness III
Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I

Level 15 (AP: 60/60)
Racial Toughness IV

Level 16 (AP: 64/64)
Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
Fighter Haste Boost III

Level 17 (AP: 68/68)
Dwarven Tactics II

Level 18 (AP: 72/72)
Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Dwarven Spell Defense II

Level 19 (AP: 75/76)
Dwarven Spell Defense III

Level 20 (AP: 80/80)
Dwarven Shield Mastery III
Fighter Weapon Alacrity

Used/Recommend this enhancement planner:
http://ddo.motd.ru/planner


Skills:

On character creation:
Max Balance
1 Rank of Tumble (cross class it costs 2 points, but 1 rank is all you need forever)
Leftovers in Intimidate, Spot and Jump
On level ups:
Intimidate (Max this always, tho its less important at the lower lvls, long as it's maxxed at 20 your good)
Balance (Max this always, if you can)
Jump (Get this to about ~10 ranks and stop. Basically your aiming for 40+ with a jump item on whilebuffed - without a jump buff as you can't always rely on buffs, as any more doesn't improve your jump height)
Spot (Cross class, but worth it - fit as many points as you can in here)

If you have more left, pop em in haggle to make some extra coin. (You likely wont unless you snaged a +3 int tome or something)

Skill overview: (Stolen from my bbn guide)

Balance: It's a very important skill, if situation skill, you generally want to aim for a score around 35 at endgame, you can do this easily with the right item. You may wish to carry a good set of balance boots/bracers.
U11 Notes: Balance is critical in master artificer. Recommend the Fabricators bracers as your balance item (effectively +15)

Intimidate? :
In the early game: Your a fast highly tactic spec dwarf killer, it won't be that neccesary.
In the late game:
Your the ultimate tank, you want to invest everything you can in here.. Epic raids need scores of 70ish.. Achievable even on this builds crappy charisma, but not easily. Either way tho, ultimately you should be holding agro via your +threat gear/stances, and only using intimdate for when you die/get incapped.. So if it takes a few rolls to get it to land, its not a big deal.. This is no longer a skill that needs to be "no fail".

Some notes on current issues:
Stalwart Defender stances prevent rage,, lowers hp a few unforunately. Madstone is semi prevented: It wont proc while in stance, but you can exit stance, use the clicky or get a proc, then re-enter stance and not lose it. Recommended for the hardest encounters.

Gear:
Will fill in some ideal gear loadouts here eventually.

Ultimate HP Disclaimer:
Obviously you can gimp your character a bit more and fit even more toughness feats, but this is the maximum I think you can fit without really making your character otherwise gimped.

[Shade]

quick adaptation of the TWF version.. Leme know if you spot any errors.

[Chauncey1]

This. Is. Awesome!

Thanks! I have a thf dwarf ftr, lvl 16 and I am pretty close to this build...as far as enhancements go anyway...
I will try this build when I reset enhancements tonight.
Again, thanks!!

[Chauncey1]

Of course...some of the items listed will be a bit more difficult to acquire, lol.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

^^^

[grodon9999]

Regarding gear . . . Stalwart set is a must as is Claw. We've seen many a stalwart have one but not the other and aggro gets wonky. Once you get both you'll hold aggro over the full-****** DPS builds AND even full-DPS sorcs.

I'm an AC-wh0re and I'm considering building something VERY similar for the LoB as since Shield Mastery and healing amp are really the only defense that works on higher difficulties.

Oh . .. and level-up/gear up as a Kensai, trust me :)

Your tactics DC with kinda suck.

[Boromirs]

Overall, a solid build as always Shade.

However, I would still recommend using the Epic Chim Fang (weapon seems to be solely designed for tankers) and go human or even dwarf + bast sword. feat. The extra fort/massive hate generation/damage (both base and disintegrate)/silver, seems pretty obvious, a maxed out alchemical T3 khopesh still wouldn't be able to come close.

Further, what would be the point of going Horc, the extra damage/DC from strength? The extra threat gen? Think horc would get killed due to their HP deficiency.

[Gumbolo]

"11 - +3 dex tome if you only started 14 dex" remains of twf version? Also what about horc version? Bit more dps, but yeah it would lose quite some hp (but at least for epics/raids I've tried, it should be enuff but it still doesn't include latest raids).

[aristarchus1000]

Nice, I have been planning a build like this.

I have been trying to balance the benefits of dwarf with that of Half-elf with monk dilly for healing amp. Still not sure which I like better.

[Shade]

"11 - +3 dex tome if you only started 14 dex" remains of twf version? Also what about horc version? Bit more dps, but yeah it would lose quite some hp (but at least for epics/raids I've tried, it should be enuff but it still doesn't include latest raids).

thx, fixed.

and yea h-orc version can work great, but the saves/balance/hp of dwarf make the better tank.

[noinfo]

I'm an AC-wh0re and I'm considering building something VERY similar for the LoB as since Shield Mastery and healing amp are really the only defense that works on higher difficulties.



And the fact that this would be better for current end game is just plain sad. What is especially sad is that some people think it should be this way. Can only hope devs actually see this thread and cringe in shame over it.

BTW the build is ablsolutely solid for current end game.

[Tirisha]

Can you give us a break down on your saves? My only concern is: with all the spell damage going around now I think your Reflex may be a bit low on this build. Have you considered splashing pally or monk/rogue for a save boost and or evasion?

[sigtrent]

Great build Shade :)

I like that it scales down well for newer players without too much fancy footwork.

[Shade]

Can you give us a break down on your saves? My only concern is: with all the spell damage going around now I think your Reflex may be a bit low on this build. Have you considered splashing pally or monk/rogue for a save boost and or evasion?

Saves should be quite good.

With +5 from dwarven spell resistance, that sures up the main weaknesses of a fighters poor base reflex and will.

They won't be exceptional and top DC epic artficers tossing tactical detonation in your face will occoasonally knock you down, but you'll be up fast with your good balance skill.

Gearset should have room to slot a +6 dex, fit +5 resistance item, or even get +6 resistance on the epic kundarak shield.

Could also consider the Occult slayer set for the +2 exceptional reflex/will saves.

With enough gear, they will hit the mark to make the saves on low rolls.

Tho the TWF variant will hit them easier and gain a cpl more points in reflex.

Will saves are rarely a big concern in engame atm... If you need to tank something that does nasty will save effects you otherwise cant ward against, best leave that to the barbarians or... ugh, favored souls heh.

But yea a 18/2 variant for slightly higher saves couldnt hurt. I dont recommend rogue for evasion tho, the BAB/HP loss are not worth it. Paladin perhaps for a bit more saves (tho youd have to change the alignment, and thus suffer unholy/anarchi dmg, not fun in epic DQ2 or some other spots). Bbn perhaps for extra hitpoints, run speed and sprint boosts.

[dubyprime]

If all you are doing is raid tanking, you could drop stun, CE, and Improved Trip for three more toughness without affecting DPS. Alternatively, you could put those feats into DPS.

Also, is Improved shield mastery is worth the 5%? Haven't really looked at the math myself.

[grodon9999]

But yea a 18/2 variant for slightly higher saves couldnt hurt. I dont recommend rogue for evasion tho, the BAB/HP loss are not worth it. Paladin perhaps for a bit more saves (tho youd have to change the alignment, and thus suffer unholy/anarchi dmg, not fun in epic DQ2 or some other spots). Bbn perhaps for extra hitpoints, run speed and sprint boosts.

Monk, even if you dump AC you can take two more toughnesses.

[Tirisha]

If all you are doing is raid tanking, you could drop stun, CE, and Improved Trip for three more toughness without affecting DPS. Alternatively, you could put those feats into DPS.

Also, is Improved shield mastery is worth the 5%? Haven't really looked at the math myself.

I believe the idea is to make a raid tank that is optimal/viable in other content. Though we all know only casters are viable/optimal in other content:p

IMO: 5% is worth it simply because there is no better feat option to replace it. Damage mitigation is what makes you a tank.

[azmodeus1]

nice looks solid, will be great for elite lob.

hurry and get that gear section done, im curious to see. :)

[LVSammy]

I'm actually in the proccess of getting a toon rdy to get their pl's for something like this. However, a few suggestions...

First off, i do not understand the choice of dorf. Imo it is one of the more useless races,but to each their own. In this type of build, human reigns sumpreme. They have the ultimate heal amp from enhancements, same hp (extra toughness and +1 con as opposed to +4con), and now with the changes to damage boost, haste and damage boost together is a wicked dps increase. Not to mention the extra skill pt per lvl and no negative to cha. Go human.

Secondly i disagree with the 3 pts in dex. Reflex save and balance aren't so terribly important that an extra 1 or 2 is gonna be a game changer, and though 1 more point in str may not be either, maxxing dps is more imp than a little reflex/balance.

Also, what is with the imp trip thing? Giving up 44 hp for that? On a tank? I just dont get it. The imp sunder i like, though i'm still thinking that i want to rely on the kensai's for that as they will have the better dc by far. I always take stunning blow now, as long as it can land as it is such a help to party cc/dps on trash (you're not always going to be tanking, but still want to be able to contribute). So i ask again, why the imp trip? With d. chain ur dc will be fine and it's still only cc and not any more dps. Get rid of CE and imp trip for 2 more toughness. If u notice the majority of kensai's u run with carrying sunder, drop that for toughness too.

Other than that, love the idea, cant wait to get tjrough the tr's and gear him up.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I have a lvl 10 set up just like this. 32 pt build, He was rolled up over 3 years ago, but I shelved him, and was only using him in situations to help guildies out. Other than the dwarven spell resistance I got it.

at lvl 10 he's at;
28
18
24
10
8
10
sound right compared to your build?

[Shade]

They have the ultimate heal amp from enhancements, same hp (extra toughness and +1 con as opposed to +4con),

Not the same.
-2 con = 20
-2 con enhance = 20 hp
racial toughnes 4 = 10 hp
+50 dwarf only

human:
1 con = 10 hp
1 feat = 22 hp
= 32 hp human only

http://ddowiki.com/page/Racial_Toughness

Biggest problem with your human:
You have -5 reflex save from no dwarf spell resist, along with your dumped dex means your a very poor tank versus anythign with spell casting, as where im saving 80% of the time, your failing 45% of the time.

Saves and balance skill are extremely important in the new raids, the fact your discounting them so heavily shows your inexperience in them.

re: Healing amp reaches 207% on this build (with no pl paladin). So any regular heal will fill you all the way up anyways. More is always nice, but not as huge an impact when your already over 200.

[cforce]

Solid build, as usual Shade!

One consideration: I know a lot of folks talk down Improved Shield Bash, but it is *some* DPS. In fact, the 20% proc rate with a (crafted) +5 Spiked+Bashing TS should be about the same DPS increase as adding/removing iCrit on the DAxe. I'd consider dropping one toughness to fit it in. The "easy" target of 1046 hitpoint vs. dropping 26 (toughness plus 1.2 stance) and "only" hitting 1020 easily seems like it would rarely make a difference, and more DPS is more DPS, even if its coming from the tank.

[LVSammy]

Just so u know, i am not inexperienced at all. I just have a diff view on the game. I dont believe in saves, only immunities and heals.

As for the heal amp, the point isnt to inc how much a heal spell hits u for it's to inc how much a heal SCROLL or fvs capstone hits u for. This statement either means you're the inexperienced one or dont care about using pots. In the new raid healer mana conservation is the toughest part of the game. When ur getting heal scrolled for 400 and capstoned for 200, you no longer require any mana to keep u topped off.

Tbh, i dont think ur build fully geared could hold agro vs. a fully geared human khop kensai. That's the reason i say more dps is better, though in my case, i'm a firm believer in more dps is always better.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Alignment:
True Neutral. It's the only correct choice for a tank. You want to reduce your incoming damage as much as possible, and this is the only race with advantages in that - eg: Immune to anarchic, axiomatic, and can use superior stability items.


It may already be too late, but I strongly suggest that you use Chaotic Neutral instead, for a couple of reasons:


* Lailat and her little sister in Bastion of Power use weapons of True Chaos, and you can negate the 1d6 times 6 swings of damage.

* Hezrou use the Chaos Hammer spell and you may commonly be tanking the one in epic Into the Deeps. This will make you immune to it.

* The only two mobs that use Order's Wrath are the VoN3 Marut and IQ1 + IQ2 casters. One you rarely have to tank and the others are just trash that can be cc'd or insta-killed. The spell isn't that devastating anyway, because while you can't move, you can still attack.

* You probably won't be using any Superior Stability items anyway. The only one I can think of is Light and Darkness, and it has inferior DR to Levik's Defender (best shield in the game for melee).

* Very few to no pvp players carry Axiomatic weapons and absolutely no mob carries them as far as I know.


I hope this helps!

[Correlan]

Nice Build Shade.

My only problem with it is this statement:

Your the ultimate tank, you want to invest everything you can in here.. Epic raids need scores of 70ish.. Achievable even on this builds crappy charisma, but not easily. Either way tho, ultimately you should be holding agro via your +threat gear/stances, and only using intimdate for when you die/get incapped.. So if it takes a few rolls to get it to land, its not a big deal.. This is no longer a skill that needs to be "no fail".


Although it may be me being picky ;) If you are the ultimate Tank, you should be using intimidate long before you die, preferably at the start of any epic encounter. Intimidate THEN dps-ing gives you ultimate aggro, The bosses attention is solely directed at you, you hit him once or twice and his aggro is unbreakable then, by any max ****** dps build who have just hit all their boosts to try and prove the build is incompetent ;) You should still be using intimidate when it is approriate for the tank to do so. Max intimidate isn't so important now but having 70+ would be better than having 60 ish IMO.

Other than that, the build is pretty solid. :D (especially with a 1000+ hps)

[Shade]

When ur getting heal scrolled for 400 and capstoned for 200, you no longer require any mana to keep u topped off.


Inexperienced and didnt read the thread, double whammy.

As i've said before heal scrolls hit for 450+ 464 iirc. As such by your own statement, the build has enough.

And thats also a really illogical statement anyways. No one needs that kind of heal scrolling per hit, even in the toughest raids. You can easily survive with less simply by having more people scroll healing.

[Shade]

* You probably won't be using any Superior Stability items anyway. The only one I can think of is Light and Darkness, and it has inferior DR to Levik's Defender (best shield in the game for melee).


Actaully I was thinking I certainly might and was gona put them in the gear section.
Lifeshield of Superior Stability armor could be quite ideal for tanking heavy caster type enemies, such as the conjoined abishhai devastator.

I can craft them on any slot its possible to fit em so theres other options too.

Was also thinking of ways to get some DR. Will really miss not having at dr at all when I put my shield away.. So have to find some source for it. I was thinking axeblock of superior stability, but aparently no there both suffixes so would need another way, epic ring of the mire perhaps for piercing.. Slash/blunt mmm.

The pros of chaotic are too minor imo atm. Lailat and hezrous certainly won't be killing this tank. d6 dmg from true chaos vs 1200+ hp? heh. The unholy burst ones certainly can start to hurt ,but the basic true chaos or true law are fine.

And they could become huge negatives if U12 or anything later adds monsters with axiomatic burst weapons. Neutral is more future proof.

[Boromirs]

A solid build once again Shade. But I have a question, why not go Epic Chim Fang. ECF seems to be THE tanker weapon at least from it's current incarnation, disintegrate+ base damage/massive stacking threat increase/increased Fort/more AC/glancing blows ... running just rough theoretical numbers it even kills the T3 alchemical crafted Khopesh. Your thoughts?

BTW, I like playing Horcs (since I kinda got them to play my barb) is there anyway to tune this build to a Horc. I see the advantages...more real damage/greater threat/glancing blows procs/HP induced damage bonuses (probably be seeing this a bit as a tanker)/more clickies. But does it make up for that spell resistance hit (and is there a way to compensate?)

[Shade]

A solid build once again Shade. But I have a question, why not go Epic Chim Fang. ECF seems to be THE tanker weapon at least from it's current incarnation, disintegrate+ base damage/massive stacking threat increase/increased Fort/more AC/glancing blows ... running just rough theoretical numbers it even kills the T3 alchemical crafted Khopesh. Your thoughts?

BTW, I like playing Horcs (since I kinda got them to play my barb) is there anyway to tune this build to a Horc. I see the advantages...more real damage/greater threat/glancing blows procs/HP induced damage bonuses (probably be seeing this a bit as a tanker)/more clickies. But does it make up for that spell resistance hit (and is there a way to compensate?)

fang: Would require a feat.
Not sure how far ahead it is vs a crafted hobglob DA for devils, or hobgcb DA for Lord of Blades. Not far im sure conting the builds axe dmg spec (think i fit +1 hit +2 dmg in there).

H-orc: yea like I said in the race section, would be easy enough to adapt the build ti horc or human and both would work well. Played with a few Horc defenders lately and they do quite well, tho there HPs are quite a bit less.

Less hp, less saves, less balance aren't good things.. But what humans and horc have to counter it are nice. I think dwarfs the best tank, but all 3 make solid choices with there own pros and cons, and all can certainly get the job done.

Low saves/balance in LoB specificly:
You get knockdowned by tactical detonation, you lose agro.. Someone else may pay the price with there lives. But theres always back up tanks and quick reflexes, so its not unsurmountable.

Lotsa **** hitting you at the end to save against as well. Nasty will save stuff from the quori mostly.

Balance score is huge in MA.. I barely get the 35 needed on my Dwarf, on my HO im a couple points off, I pay the price and get knocked around a bit.. My dwarf is solid as a rock. Being a stable tank can save the lives of your allies, you get knocked around, the titans spins, blood flies, its not pretty.

[Tirisha]

Not the same.
-2 con = 20
-2 con enhance = 20 hp
racial toughnes 4 = 10 hp
+50 dwarf only

human:
1 con = 10 hp
1 feat = 22 hp
= 32 hp human only

http://ddowiki.com/page/Racial_Toughness

Biggest problem with your human:
You have -5 reflex save from no dwarf spell resist, along with your dumped dex means your a very poor tank versus anythign with spell casting, as where im saving 80% of the time, your failing 45% of the time.

Saves and balance skill are extremely important in the new raids, the fact your discounting them so heavily shows your inexperience in them.

re: Healing amp reaches 207% on this build (with no pl paladin). So any regular heal will fill you all the way up anyways. More is always nice, but not as huge an impact when your already over 200.

This is true though I'm a sucker for the extra amp (sure a heal spell with get you topped but not a scroll or a mass cure), that's why I went Half elf (which is more amp than human for same AP cost with Monk dil) and splashed 2 pally for the saves, my saves are higher than the dwarf build but in light of MA I may need to figure out a way to work in a higher balance. It's really personal preference on this point though.

[sirgog]

Hard to pass up the Cavalry Plate.

5 DR for two-hander mode. Demonic Shield for an effective stacking 6 DR. Superior False Life - it's got a lot in one package. (As a side bonus, it's the highest AC armor in the game, which may help this build in TOD norm/hard depending upon the rest of your gearset)

Epic Red Dragonplate is also worth consideration as a threat booster - two guards and Eternal Fire add up, and while it's not so hot on LOB, 40 fire resist is amazing in devil content.

[Gumbolo]

Just random comments and thoughts



"3 - Personally I have a lot of nice dwarven axes and im kinda stubborn so id prolly get sunder.. But yea Khopesh are better, so get that feat and use em if you got some. Why sunder: Crit skeletons in Deleras! I do a lot of undead content lvling, so yea that would be nice."


Isn't it more beneficial to just run around with great axe (and from lvl4, with carnifex) while having dwarven axe damage enhancement for higher damage (most of time you should be 1-2 hitting mobs at really low lvls, if you're twinked) and higher to-hit instead of going for khopesh feat for twf/s&b?


A solid build once again Shade. But I have a question, why not go Epic Chim Fang. ECF seems to be THE tanker weapon at least from it's current incarnation, disintegrate+ base damage/massive stacking threat increase/increased Fort/more AC/glancing blows ... running just rough theoretical numbers it even kills the T3 alchemical crafted Khopesh. Your thoughts?

BTW, I like playing Horcs (since I kinda got them to play my barb) is there anyway to tune this build to a Horc. I see the advantages...more real damage/greater threat/glancing blows procs/HP induced damage bonuses (probably be seeing this a bit as a tanker)/more clickies. But does it make up for that spell resistance hit (and is there a way to compensate?)

ECF requires 3 feats to get everything out of it, also I thinked myself about that horc version, but it got problems such as -2 for int, you don't benefit from thf enhancements while tanking and miss those glancing blows from not using D axe (and if you want to grab it, you'll have to reduce your hp even more by using feat for profiency)

There's possibility of dropping one toughness enhancement (loss of 12hp with stance) and grab +4 intimidate for +20% chance to gain 12s +100% threat buff (while using shield)

Overall really solid build and currently thinking about rolling up one with a minor changes.

(bah "you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Shade again")

[Boromirs]

Hrm,torn between this and sirgogs plichard(human chim fang) SD. The thing I see with sirgogs build is changeability+ enormous damage due to the ECF and human damage boost(BE WARNED: the human versitilty is not yet live and can be changed,currently it does a stunning + 25 % damage to nearly all aspects of your dam except special effects).

So I guess it comes down to a massive increase in DPS or survivability. From what I've been hearing about LoB I'm starting to warm to Shade's survival build more... thoughts?

[weedf16]

I am working up a version of this build. I am heavily leaning towards Half-Elf with Pally Dilly. That would provide me +5 to all saves with minimal AP expenditures. Also, you get the bonus of Human healing amp. It's another option if you are interested in giving up 50-ish hps to significantly increase your survivability.

In regards to the ECF debate. I hesitate to EVER build a toon around a specific weapon. Just me though...I remember the wailing & gnashing of teeth after the WoP nerfs.

[Tarnoc]

Just so u know, i am not inexperienced at all. I just have a diff view on the game. I dont believe in saves, only immunities and heals.

As for the heal amp, the point isnt to inc how much a heal spell hits u for it's to inc how much a heal SCROLL or fvs capstone hits u for. This statement either means you're the inexperienced one or dont care about using pots. In the new raid healer mana conservation is the toughest part of the game. When ur getting heal scrolled for 400 and capstoned for 200, you no longer require any mana to keep u topped off.

Tbh, i dont think ur build fully geared could hold agro vs. a fully geared human khop kensai. That's the reason i say more dps is better, though in my case, i'm a firm believer in more dps is always better.

inexperienced you definately are.....

i have a build like this sword and board 32 point fighter 18 pali 2

my saves are all in the 40s obviously fort is like 50 something

i hit buffed 80 ac ..........my hps with out trying to get madstoned yugod and combat infused in stance is 827........ i have a 42 standing str 75 intimi and shield dr rocks;)

ive done hard LOB with soem of thelanuses strongest and the only way they took my agro was if i was not intiming in order to get more hate generated ( and that was just a spin around and then straight back to me as i intimed sometimes its a very good tactic as the boss spends his time spining instead of attacking) but theve not taken the agro from me before my intimi timer was up ever

btw you can smite and cleave while shield blocking and it does a proper hit not sheild bashing

so i say that saves matter huge because without massive healing amp i was 90% of the time being heal scrolled

to the poster ive outed lmao maybe you should get some experience in these things before you try and interject your ideas


P.S. thanks devs for making my build viable once again because the changes to intimi had messed him up but now with update 11 things seem to be working as intended.....


to the poster who said that the K Mart epic armour is the best ac in game im confused as wen i switched to that armour over my epic vambraces i lost ac????
ok i just redid the switching around it wasnt ac i lost my bad its the cha which ona an intimi isa difference but ill still say the the proc is useless as your goal is to not be hit so it wont proc

o and the cav plate is just **** ugly......


and finally a question to shade.... how are you getting your madstone clicky to work as i can go outta stance and even switch my ESOS hit the clicky and nothing the proc works wen outta stance but the clicky is not( atleast for me) and i have three and tried all three

[Shade]

So I guess it comes down to a massive increase in DPS or survivability. From what I've been hearing about LoB I'm starting to warm to Shade's survival build more... thoughts?

I dunno about massive.

IMO this build with a ESoS will FAR outdps the fang, and either build with one will be very close. And well you could use the ESoS on the fang build, just seems like a bit of waste to do so as youd have 3 feats not doing much.

Yea dmg boost is nice but it's not THAT ''massive''.

And on 100% fort targets, dwarf can use the epic antique for ideal 100% fort dps and take advantage of axe enhancements.

Or sword and board vs 80-100% fort targets, a nice alchemical/GS dwarven axe is up there with the fang.

Also, in LoB - a throwing weapon is KEY to tanking. The +1 to hit and dmg also applies to throwing axes. Just ran an epic last night, and tanking was flawless thanks to 2 top tanks with good throwers (and intimidate, and a lot of skill).

Edit: Just looked at his build: Pilchard build does not even have damage boost. He doesn't take human versatility. So expect some losses in other areas if you want to fit it.

[Gumbolo]

Just some suggestions, but well I'm not familiar with playing as s&b or fighter, so there could be quite a lot of flaws. >.<

Earlier missed out that you had taken few ranks of improved intimidate. Made some testing and dropping racial toughness IV and dwarven shield mastery I-III for intimidate III-IV and Haste boost IV could be useful mix unless you're going to hide behind the shield for the extra +3/- dr.

About Combat Expertise and Improved trip, are they really worth it? It would allow you to drop 1 point from int (but +3 int tomes wouldn't grant anymore extra skill points) and take one more toughness (or greater specialization) and maybe improved shield bashing.
This would make you lose 3dc out of trip (and +5s to cooldown), which isn't desirable but it would give you 20% chance to do some extra damage with shield (not much, but I tend to think that the extra damage is always good thing) and give you more hp or even more damage with your Daxe

Some optimization, which is going for thf and damage feats, with early toughness to open up enhancements while taking tanking (and utility...) feats at the end.



Level 1
Stunning Blow
(Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 2
(Bonus) Power Attack

Level 3
Toughness

Level 4
(Bonus) Two Handed Fighting

Level 6
Toughness
(Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 8
(Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 9
Combat Expertise

Level 10
(Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons

Level 12 (Fighter)
Toughness
(Bonus) Shield Mastery

Level 14
(Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill Focus: Intimidate

Level 16 (Fighter)
(Bonus) Improved Trip

Level 18
Toughness
(Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery

Level 20
(Bonus) Improved Sunder

[Shade]

About Combat Expertise and Improved trip, are they really worth it? It would allow you to drop 1 point from int (but +3 int tomes wouldn't grant anymore extra skill points) and take one more toughness (or greater specialization) and maybe improved shield bashing.
This would make you lose 3dc out of trip (and +5s to cooldown), which isn't desirable but it would give you 20% chance to do some extra damage with shield (not much, but I tend to think that the extra damage is always good thing) and give you more hp or even more damage with your Daxe

Absolutely improved trip is insanely awesome.
Epic Heavy Deneith thanks to my suggestion now has vertigo +15, and is also one of the best endgame tanking sets of armor in the game.

With it on, on my bbn without Improved trip, I can now trip pretty much every monster in the game, even epic ones. This build should have a very similar DC.

Taking a monster out of the fight for 60 seconds every 10 seconds is extremely powerful. Well worth the 2 feats. Sure while tanking a lot of stuff is red named, but generally there are things to trip in most boss fights, and without improved you can indeed be 4 points short of where you want to be (and yea its 4DC).
Horoth: Orthon gets you on, make him lay down.
LoB: Several trash waves here, taking down the artificers fast can make a huge diffference and prevent deaths.
MA: Again artificers, tho only on the lead up waves.

I use tactics like crazy so I want to fit as much as possible, every ftr I make wil have improved trip, its that good.

I do want to fit in improved shield bash tho, so im considering the options on waht to drop.
Perhaps improved sunder, perhaps a toughness. Well see.

Either way, this spec is best for leveling, as yea youll be using a two hander 99% of the time while lvling. Shields are only for endgame raids or when **** hits the fan and you need to recover imo.

PS: Int. Everyone point of int now more mean skills points, due to the tomes min lvls..
In this case, at lvl3, youd eat a +1 int tome, for 12, and be getting +1 skill point per level up until level7 vs if you had started 10. So +4 skill points for 1 int.

[NoidRoid]

I would prefer human as well but dwarf isn't the worst choice and I know you have a certain affinity for them. Note that, in addition to the power of eFang and several nice AP lines, human with all 3 sentinal DMs gives +6 intim(2 from first tier, 4 for 4 APs) and the use of Epic Chimera's crown for stacking HP.

One glaring omission is greater weapon spec, +2 damage for a single feat. I actually like improved trip, it is reliable CC and I think you could safely drop stunning blow with that in mind.

[Shade]

I would prefer human as well but dwarf isn't the worst choice and I know you have a certain affinity for them. Note that, in addition to the power of eFang and several nice AP lines, human with all 3 sentinal DMs gives +6 intim(2 from first tier, 4 for 4 APs) and the use of Epic Chimera's crown for stacking HP.


yea human can work.. I think human should prolly splash 2 paladin for saves tho.. Just going pure fighter with no way to boost saves is just not very tankish vs bosses with heavy spell casting like horoth, arraetrikos, abbot, abishai, hell most of em have some strong spells mainly with reflex/fort saves. Dwarves saves bonus is something that you should never underestimate. I mean in pnp its only +2, and by most accounts the races are balanced.. Humans dont exactly get enhancements for more bonus feats.. I think it gives Dwarves the tanking edge. Humans do have the dps edge now with dmg boost which I think is dumb, but oh well, these arent dps builds anyways.

Don't really like the fang build myself. Too much investment for one weapon. But if you have an affinity for bastard swords anyways, its not too bad.

I do think Dwarf deserves a boost in overall power tho since humans have been getting so many over the years.

One major one i've asked for many times is really a bug fix more then a boost:
Give dwarves there proper stability bonuses.. +4 versus all knockdown effects, not just titan hammers aoe and balance checks as it is now. (titan hammer direct strikes are Strength, tho the save DCs are impossible anyways atm, and would still be with +4, its actaully possible to block them tho with skilled timing, but the balance check still applies to blocked slams)

[Boromirs]

Depending on how the eFang works I may try human as my first life tank (then go with Shade's dwarf build). From what Sirgog is saying I think the bonuses to incite stack (confirmation?) meaning the +10/+15/+20 would equal a total of 45% incite for human while for a non-human it would equal +25% incite. 45% incite increase from just the weapon alone is pretty nuts... but then again so is 3 feats for one weapon.

I know with human or halforc keeping aggro is guaranteed even against a full blown decked out barb as the game currently stands. The only question then becomes...

Due to the insane amount of investment (you would need a fully epic'd out/whatever T3 crafted gear toon). Is it really worth it to make a TRUE tank? We all know DPS is neccesary for end-game and so are healers... but are tanks FINALLY a crucial component with the new content... or has the attempt to make tanks mainstream failed once again. Comments?

[lugoman]

Thought about splashing 2 monk or rogue for evasion? How much of LoB's damage is evadable and what saves are needed?

[Shade]

Due to the insane amount of investment (you would need a fully epic'd out/whatever T3 crafted gear toon). Is it really worth it to make a TRUE tank? We all know DPS is neccesary for end-game and so are healers... but are tanks FINALLY a crucial component with the new content... or has the attempt to make tanks mainstream failed once again. Comments?

For Epic LoB and Epic MA - absoutely.

We did use a halforc stalwart with quite a bit less hp on last nights Epic LoB.. But he was otherwise a straight tank build with top gear.

Backup tank was my latest half orc barbarian - I respeced him a bit for max hitpoints and shield mastery. Shield mastery really saves a ton of SP during moments its better to block - eg while hounds/trash are fought, during stun attempts, during whirlwind, during rain of blades.

For easier content.. Not really. My bbn can tank elite as main tank - its extremely hard, but he certianly can and has done so. And with his far superior DPS, I think hes really better in some ways. End the raid faster, and save that much more resources. Sure I take quite a bit more dmg (much of which is self inflicted heh), but I got shield mastery, that 20% + top healing amp gear + skill/experience are the main things that make a tank in there, not so much the build.

I do hope they continue the trend in U12 and beyond tho of making content hard enough to REALLY warrant having tank builds like this, at least on epic.

And really for 95% of players, even hard/elite, tanking it with a Barbarian is beyond most players abilities, doing it with this build would enable a much larger variety of players to beat the raids without too SP potion use.

Though I also think Barbarians ARE tanks and they need to get our our tanking PrE ASAP. (Occult Slayer).

Dwarf Defender Berserker would be awesome too.. and turn off the stupid supressed rage thing, loweirng AC should be a choice, not a restriction.. If its for balance reasons, just say that AC penalties double while in stance. so power rage IV is -12 AC.

[Shade]

Thought about splashing 2 monk or rogue for evasion? How much of LoB's damage is evadable and what saves are needed?

I'd say less then 1% of his damage. He does like his blade barriers and cometfalls. But the blade barriers hurt the dps going in and out more, and the cometfalls generally dont target the tank either (uses em a lot on the healers i find, likes to knock them down to slow the healing)

His most devastating spell is tactical detonation as it will knock you down, and you could lose agro while down as it has a rather long duration and no re-curing save iirc. And yea evasion doesnt matter much on that, the dmg isnt bad, its the knockdown.. So a failed save is a failed save either way. Cometfall takes you down too, but like I said, hits the tank less often, and does have a re-curring balance save to get up.

He's 90% melee, 10% caster. And his melee hits HARD, while his casting is just standard maxizmzed + empowered stuff (on epic, dont think he has all metas on normal)

With power of the forge ive had him hit me with regular swings for 290... Without, he's swinging in the 200 range, sometimes double strikes.

[Grenada]

Though I also think Barbarians ARE tanks and they need to get our our tanking PrE ASAP. (Occult Slayer).

Dwarf Defender Berserker would be awesome too.. and turn off the stupid supressed rage thing, loweirng AC should be a choice, not a restriction.. If its for balance reasons, just say that AC penalties double while in stance. so power rage IV is -12 AC.

O.o

Occult slayer dorf defender.

Sounds like fun.

[wolflordnexus]

Dwarf Defender Berserker would be awesome too.. and turn off the stupid supressed rage thing, loweirng AC should be a choice, not a restriction.. If its for balance reasons, just say that AC penalties double while in stance. so power rage IV is -12 AC.

Honestly the dwarven racial pre could make be enough to put dwarfs back in prime time Cleric FVS and Barbarian defender builds relay open up a lot of nice choices.

[lugoman]

Depending on how the eFang works I may try human as my first life tank (then go with Shade's dwarf build). From what Sirgog is saying I think the bonuses to incite stack (confirmation?) meaning the +10/+15/+20 would equal a total of 45% incite for human while for a non-human it would equal +25% incite. 45% incite increase from just the weapon alone is pretty nuts... but then again so is 3 feats for one weapon.



I would wait for a dev to say for sure the incite stacks before committing. Also I am not sure how much incite is actually needed with the new change is Stalwart Defender. I dont have any problems with holding agro, but no mari chained/esos barbs in my guild yet.

If the efang incite does stack you could ditch skill focus intim for one of the dragonmarks.

[Boromirs]

I would wait for a dev to say for sure the incite stacks before committing. Also I am not sure how much incite is actually needed with the new change is Stalwart Defender. I dont have any problems with holding agro, but no mari chained/esos barbs in my guild yet.

If the efang incite does stack you could ditch skill focus intim for one of the dragonmarks.

If it doesn't stack, you can go horc and recoup the lost incite through hate fighting enhancements. So you could still theoretically get it to 40% (25% hate from horc racial enhancment and 15% from the weapon). Not sure if it stacks or not though, can anyone in Lam with a eFang confirm this?

[Astraghal]

I've been considering TR'ing my 32-point Dwarf Kensai into a Stalwart Defender. I was looking at TWF but this is an interesting concept and I haven't played SD since the changes. If I was going to go the THF route, I don't have an ESoS yet but I have the makings of an EGA.

Using that and the gear I have I'd go with something like:



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 544
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 6
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 27
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 18 21
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 11 13
Charisma 9 11

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0 15
Bluff -1 0
Concentration 4 5
Diplomacy -1 0
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 0
Heal 0 1
Hide -1 0
Intimidate 3 33
Jump 4 20
Listen 0 1
Move Silently -1 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 3
Spot 0 1
Swim 4 8
Tumble 0 1
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV





GEAR

Head: Pirate Hat (Seeker +6, Balance +15)
Eyes: Greensteel Goggles (+45 HP, Lightning Storm Guard)
Neck: Stalwart Necklace
Trinket: Epic Brawn's Spirits (Luck +2)
Back: Epic Cloak of Night
Waist: Knost's Belt
Arms: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Hands: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Ring: Cinder's Band (exceptional STR +2)
Ring: Encrusted Ring (20% healing amplification)
Boots: Madstone Boots
Armor: Epic Cavalry Plate (Toughness)
Weapon: Epic Antique Greataxe (+7, DEX +6)


ABILITY SCORES

STR: 42 (+6)
DEX: 16
CON: 36 (+6)
INT: 11 (-1)
WIS: 12 (-1)
CHA: 11


HITPOINTS

544 character planner
100 constitution
060 superior defensive stance
045 greensteel hp item
040 superior false life
020 toughness
010 draconic vitality
-----
819 x 20% = 982 total unbuffed HP


HEALING AMPLIFICATION

30% epic gloves of the claw
20% tod ring
-----
56% unbuffed


DAMAGE REDUCTION

DR 6/- passive

-20% active


SAVES

Fortitude: 40 (unbuffed)
Reflex: 19 (unbuffed)
Will: 17 (unbuffed)


THREAT

75% superior defensive stance
20% epic claw set
15% stalwart set
10% epic brawn's spirits
-----
265% multiplicative/120% additive


AC

Probably not bad but who cares right?


INTIMIDATE

23 ranks
20 competence
06 stalwart defender III
05 enhancement
04 improved intimidate
02 favor
02 luck
-----
62 unbuffed


I tended towards high Strength, Constitution, Hitpoints, DPS and Threat while marginalizing saves and skills.

I don't think I can get saves much higher anyway, though an Insight +4 item would help. Intimidate isn't maximized but I get it decently high just through items. Over 1000 HP buffed, high healing amp, good DR and theoretically enough threat to hold aggro against melee who aren't using incite gear.

Whether I'd actually go to the trouble of making an SD without knowing for a fact that Intimidate is usable and that all threat modifiers are working correctly is another thing.

I added SWF: Slashing as the last feat just for the option of going Kensai III.

[Feithlin]

Nobody mentioned it I think, but I would make some observations on the feats:

* Greater weapon specialization: you didn't include it (no need for gWF, but I suppose you know that), and imo it is worth droping a toughness for it (even if you fall a bit below 1,000 HP, but maybe it is a the psychologicaly important number :)).

* Imp. shield bash: not that great, but it still adds some damage when tanking (and thus some threat). You could even craft a +5 holy burst adamantine tower shield of greater construct bane for some nice additional dps (also remember that you keep full str bonus on shield damage).

You may well be right about ignoring AC and focusing on DR and Healing amp in the actual state of high end game.

*Edit: saw your comment about gWS after the feats list. I would take it in addition to imp. sunder though.

[Feithlin]

Dwarf Defender Berserker would be awesome too.. and turn off the stupid supressed rage thing, loweirng AC should be a choice, not a restriction.. If its for balance reasons, just say that AC penalties double while in stance. so power rage IV is -12 AC.

FvS dwarf defender is more appealing to me :)

[sweez]

Quick question - why do you prefer the eChain over eCavalry plate? Does the colorless slot outweigh the other CP advantages?

[Shade]

Quick question - why do you prefer the eChain over eCavalry plate? Does the colorless slot outweigh the other CP advantages?

not sure what your asking.
Epic marilith versus walmart epic?

[sirgog]

Quick question - why do you prefer the eChain over eCavalry plate? Does the colorless slot outweigh the other CP advantages?

Shatter 10 is good. Helps make the Seeker 10 on the Marichain useful again.

Still, eCP is better for this sort of build in most situations. It's sad, but it's flat-out the best defensive armor in the game against bosses that mostly melee.

[Shade]

Still, eCP is better for this sort of build in most situations. It's sad, but it's flat-out the best defensive armor in the game against bosses that mostly melee.

mm deneith chains better for this build.

Lifeshield > Demonic Shield (Demonic shield procrate sucks)
2 slots > 1. Can slot toughness + int , both very important to this build and not easy to fit in other slots. (int for sf pots, except perhaps charisma +1 if your stats are all >10 anyways)
Vertigo +15 > nothing

So alls left is AC and resist 5.. Resist 5 should be on Epic Envenomed cloak. AC is irrelevant to the builds purpose.

I mean yea the cavlary plate is a good starter "welfare" epic armor, but you should work towards the deneith chain for ultimate tank armor for this build. (well in some raids where its mainly SP healing, for heavy heavy scroll healing raids like Epic LoB, id recommend DT armor with +10% healing amp to max it out)

Mari Chain is ultimate dps armor for when the hp/lifeshield/inti isn't critical.

Tho cav plate does have 5 dr, maybe good tank armor for low dps stuff when going two hander i guess.

Id prolly carry em all. I have the cav plate and deneith chain on the guy im gona tr anyways, marilith i prolly wont get as id rather trade the scroll at this point heh.

[Habreno]

Both have SFL?

If so, then ya, the Cove plate is a bit short in the tanking department.

[Shade]

Both have SFL?


Yar.. as of U11. (Thx to sirgogs suggestion actually, and mine for the +15 vert)

[sirgog]

mm deneith chains better for this build.

Lifeshield > Demonic Shield (Demonic shield procrate sucks)
2 slots > 1. Can slot toughness + int , both very important to this build and not easy to fit in other slots. (int for sf pots, except perhaps charisma +1 if your stats are all >10 anyways)
Vertigo +15 > nothing

So alls left is AC and resist 5.. Resist 5 should be on Epic Envenomed cloak. AC is irrelevant to the builds purpose.

I mean yea the cavlary plate is a good starter "welfare" epic armor, but you should work towards the deneith chain for ultimate tank armor for this build. (well in some raids where its mainly SP healing, for heavy heavy scroll healing raids like Epic LoB, id recommend DT armor with +10% healing amp to max it out)

Mari Chain is ultimate dps armor for when the hp/lifeshield/inti isn't critical.

Tho cav plate does have 5 dr, maybe good tank armor for low dps stuff when going two hander i guess.

Id prolly carry em all. I have the cav plate and deneith chain on the guy im gona tr anyways, marilith i prolly wont get as id rather trade the scroll at this point heh.

Heard the opposite on Demonic Shield, and the identically named ability on the Demon Consort Bracers is insane (20% proc rate*). Will need to test this, if the Cav Plate doesn't have the same proc rate then yeah it's not so hot.

Other armor to seriously consider is the Madness chain armor (Fleshmaker healing amp, Disintegration guard, option to craft any one of +10 non-stacking Reflex save or various aggro effects).


Oh and interested to see your gear layout plans. 5pc Abashai isn't going to work as you pretty clearly need the Claw gloves (even though 5Abashai has +3 Con you can't get elsewhere). Assuming you want Ravager for both DPS and the DOT that continues through aggro resets.


* Edit: This is a DDO wiki claim only. Later testing is inconclusive, but 15% looks more likely.

[Shade]

Heard the opposite on Demonic Shield, and the identically named ability on the Demon Consort Bracers is insane (20% proc rate). Will need to test this, if the Cav Plate doesn't have the same proc rate then yeah it's not so hot.

Not making up. almost never procs.
Identically named ability? Nope. The demon consort bracers dont have the effect even listed.. It's a hidden effect on those, so could very well be coded different. Tho my testing of the bracers showed the hp proc is rather **** too. Sure they may have 20% chance of doing "something" but that something is rarely the hitpoints, and often the inflict wounds procs.

and yea wouldnt include 5pc abishai, 3 piece: Helm, Cloak, Boots.

Most likely my ideal gear would exactly match my barbarians gear except I might drop berserker belt, and make a greensteel belt with +charisma for intimidate.

quick rundown on what that'd be to:
google: GS +45 hp concordant op for tanking boss, earthgrab for trash.
helm: abishai - slot featherfall (tho can change, more of a gameplay preference)
cloak: abishai (slot +1 con)
boots: abishai - Slot dex
bracers: Claw, swapable to fabricators for MA when balance is needed, and glacial for heavy fire damage tanking
Glove: claw
belt: GS +6 charisma skilled (cleansed)
neck: Finger for tanking, Shintao cord for dps
ring1: Shintao +20% healing amp
ring2: Encrusted +1 +2 strength
Trinket: Epic Brawns Spirit: Slot int or cha depending. Swap to epic gem of many facets for when intims not important for more DPS with fabricators

Armor1: deneith chain, toughness +6 int
armor2: cav plate, slot: hvy fort (for when fabricators bracers on)
armor3: epic mari (tho id never get it since i already have on 2 other chars and thats enough for now)

Can also swap helm to minos for fabricators just losing 3 str.
Would also swap boots of corrosion for madstone while tanking Ronny (anti magic, need some striding and attack speed buff)

fairly optimized no-ac tank setup imo.

[Shade]

Assuming you want Ravager for both DPS and the DOT that continues through aggro resets.

The one spot i'd like such a dot would be LoB.. But he's rather immune to ravager.

Thrower works better.

[azmodeus1]

Due to the insane amount of investment (you would need a fully epic'd out/whatever T3 crafted gear toon). Is it really worth it to make a TRUE tank? We all know DPS is neccesary for end-game and so are healers... but are tanks FINALLY a crucial component with the new content... or has the attempt to make tanks mainstream failed once again. Comments?

well im not totally convinced, as a high hp/high amp dps can still tank everything but epic lob, and even that can be done, but for that one raid resource conservation is key, so i'd say a pure tank build would be necessary.

honestly i'd rather have more dps tank in any other raid i can think of, although epic MA would also really benefit from a tank for marggie. i have yet to run it on epic, so im not sure if a high amp/hp dps would still be functional. i mean sure you'll take more dmg, but you'll be doing more dmg while they beat down ronnie, so im not sure on how that would work out, probably the tank build would be more effective.

...still epic lob needs to be done, and there is definatly a high demand for skilled players that could run this build effectively.

[Xyfiel]

Was considering a 12 fighter(kensai II)/6 paladin(defender)/2 monk Human myself

Epic fang/leviks/damage boost
less hps but much better saves/dps/threat/healing amp/evasion
points in con instead of str, lose 9 str but gain 8 from power surge

hp change
-66 toughness feats
-10 racial toughness
+20 con difference(gain 5 lose 3)
+1 class(way of the tortoise +2 monk = 21, 2 fighter = 20)
75-20 = 55 base hp loss
40 stance con hp loss
811(your number) -55 = 756 + stance = 854

Not seeing how 190 hit points are worth losing everything gained. How can a defender build be listed as top dps anyway?:p

[Ninety]

Not making up. almost never procs.

It proc's constantly. I got about a 33% proc rate on it. It will proc, and get the damage taken off the temp hp from the same hit, which makes it appear to not proc at all.

also, why aren't you taking the barb active past life feat at 3 instead of toughness? barb active past life feat gives access to toughness enhancements, gives more HP at the level, and the rage sooner for easier leveling.

[cdemeritt]

Nice build... I GR'd my first life fighter into this... and you are right, very tight in points for a 32pt build... Thankfully I had a couple +3 tomes in the bank while I decided if this toon was going to TR or just be a 1 lifer... since he is sitting at just shy of 2700 favor, he's going to be my account Elite opener... Being a first lifer, and short some gear, his HP was a much more modest 900HP, but this has still been enough to make some barbarians jealous. I might tweak a few things more for my liking, but all in all looks good... I can't imagine what it will be like with a 3tr life....

[Astraghal]

Epic Cavalry Plate is the best armor for this type of build. I wore it for months tanking raids and epics and Demonic Shield procs constantly and is a lifesaver. One thing you'll want to check is that if 1 rank of tumble will be enough with armor check penalties. You don't really want to wait for buffs to be able to tumble. Same with jump to a degree, you want to be able to jump over stuff without waiting for buffs. It all helps when you've just been raised from a death and lost aggro and need to get it back ASAP.

[Shade]

It proc's constantly. I got about a 33% proc rate on it. It will proc, and get the damage taken off the temp hp from the same hit, which makes it appear to not proc at all.

Was more like 1-2% when I tested. With such a huge divergence even in just our casual obervations I have to wonder if they maybe upgraded it. I did test it the very first patch the armor came out, quite a while ago.. So it's possible. (And yea I know a lil bit about ddo, I can look at a combat log and see when its procing, I dont look at my hitpoints to test.)

I'll try it again soon.

Either way, our simple guesses at procrate based on random obervation aren't that useful to people. We need to do a proper test.

re: other note. Yea like I said, work in progres... Fixed.

[Monkey_Archer]

Either way, our simple guesses at procrate based on random obervation aren't that useful to people. We need to do a proper test.


Did a quick test of both the bracers and the plate...
Its a small sample size so nothing conclusive, but oddly enough both proc'd 12 times in 87 hits (~14%). Seems to suggest they are at least 10%, but probably not 20% like many people think.

Demon consort bracers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVeY3iLHU8)

Cavalry plate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29KZEdhKfJA)

[Elaril]

Not making up. almost never procs.
Identically named ability? Nope. The demon consort bracers dont have the effect even listed.. It's a hidden effect on those, so could very well be coded different. Tho my testing of the bracers showed the hp proc is rather **** too. Sure they may have 20% chance of doing "something" but that something is rarely the hitpoints, and often the inflict wounds procs.


Quoted to future proof this gem.;)

Looks like a cool build. Hope you have fun with it.

[Shade]

Quoted to future proof this gem.;)

Proof of what? That DDO constantly gets many undocumented changes every update?

Not exactly news.

Based on monkeys video i'd guess the proc was up to 10% now to match lifeshield. Likely after the devs read complaints about the armor and other CC items proc effects not working well. Doesn't really change my opinion of the item, Deneith chain still has the edge.

U11 got a ton of undocumented changes.. Unrelated but some other cool ones:
Fireball, Frost lance, Firestorm and many other spells have upgraded graphical effects.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I actually looked into the exact same build idea about a week ago, but scrapped the idea when the HP wasn't nearly as much as I had hoped.

It is a solid build though, however, I would go human instead - lose about 40ish hp but gain Human Versatility which is far more useful, imo.

[Elaril]

Proof of what? That DDO constantly gets many undocumented changes every update?

Not exactly news.

Based on monkeys video i'd guess the proc was up to 10% now to match lifeshield. Likely after the devs read complaints about the armor and other CC items proc effects not working well. Doesn't really change my opinion of the item, Deneith chain still has the edge.


That's not what I was talking about.

[sirgog]

Did a quick test of both the bracers and the plate...
Its a small sample size so nothing conclusive, but oddly enough both proc'd 12 times in 87 hits (~14%). Seems to suggest they are at least 10%, but probably not 20% like many people think.

Demon consort bracers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVeY3iLHU8)

Cavalry plate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29KZEdhKfJA)

I had 20% in my head thinking it was from a reliable source. It is not, it's just the DDO wiki.

From your data, all of 10%, 15%, 20% and 25% are statistically plausible for each item, as are all sorts of numbers in between.

Still, even if it's only 10%, that's 150% better than Concordant Opposition, and is very significant in any raid situation where trash is attacking you in addition to bosses. At 15%, it's 275% better than Conc-Opp.

[aerendhil]

with the improved fortification of bosses, is "IC: Slashing" still a must-have ?

[Nephilia]

Nice build shade, really :)
I'm thinking about running one of this instead of the AC build I was building (fortunately I did not TRed yet :P).
I just I would like to run a human one (personal flavor!)!!!
The gear set up seems very nice and a lot easier to farm that an AC build one!!!
Again, great build :)

Just 1 doubt... is skill focus: intimidate really needed?
With +5 enhancement from gloves, +20 from epic brawn and full skill those 3 point are really so effective?

[Boromirs]

Would recommend human as well unless you are only building the tank for LoB. General purpose wise for raids,bosses,epics,and dual dose/tanking roles human is probably themore optimal choice..

[Battlehawke]

Very solid build!

[Varashad]

People who tell me that multiple ranks of toughness is dumb will now be referred to this build.

Your lack of Greater Weapon Specialization, yet use of Imp Trip make me sad however. +4 to DC on trip checks are, although useful, they're not nearly as good as Stunning Blows. At least take Combat Expertise early(at like level 4) so it's useful. Personally I would replace those points used on intelligence with more strength(max it) and Combat Expertise and Imp Trip with Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization.

I would also turn SF:Intim into Toughness. +3 to intimidate isn't as good as 22 more hp in my opinion. Pop a +1/+3 cha tome to partially make up for the lost SF:Intim. Even without the tome, -3 to intimidate isn't a huge deal if you're running a 60+ intimidate DC.

Ditch the +2 int tome and pop a +2 str and con tome at level 7.

Drop dex to 8 and put the points into Cha(Start with 9) for better intimidates. Dwarves gain +4 to their dodge checks, and as such don't need any points in dex to keep their balance checks high. A +6 dex item, ship buffs, and +2 dex tome will knock out any penalties and give you significant bonuses to your reflex saves.

All in all though, aside from these little teensy issues, none of which will have any significant effect on your build, I like this idea and concept.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

I had 20% in my head thinking it was from a reliable source. It is not, it's just the DDO wiki.

From your data, all of 10%, 15%, 20% and 25% are statistically plausible for each item, as are all sorts of numbers in between.

Still, even if it's only 10%, that's 150% better than Concordant Opposition, and is very significant in any raid situation where trash is attacking you in addition to bosses. At 15%, it's 275% better than Conc-Opp.

Does it matter? I believe that the lifeshield from Conc-Opp is a different effect. It should be correctly stacking with either armor. What's the harm in wearing both? More HP % procs will only increase your survivability in critical boss-tanking situations.

[Shade]

Your lack of Greater Weapon Specialization, yet use of Imp Trip make me sad however. +4 to DC on trip checks are, although useful, they're not nearly as good as Stunning Blows.
The int is required regardless. Without the int you could not properly max balance and intimidate - 2 UTTERLY critical skills to this build.

And why are you comparing stunning blow and trip? The build has both, and you know what in DDO? You almost always fight more then 1 monster.

Thus proper strategy: Trip one (He will stay down for a full minute), Stun the next, kill that stuned one, maybe sunder another, by this time you 10 second cooldown is over on improved trip (Thats the HUGE thing about the feat, not the +4 DC, the faster cooldown), and you can trip another.

Anyways, only proficienti n tactics knows that Improved trip is an ultra useful feat, esecpially at mid levels. Should you wish to drop it for another toughness, then drop combat exp for greater weapon spec at endgame, that won't hurt anything.. As like I said, the int is required, and feats are flexible on a build that gets so many. I do highly recommend it pre endgame tho, and even then if you running a lot of non raids stills, its ultra useful. In raids its limited to a few monsters, but still nice.


At least take Combat Expertise early(at like level 4) so it's useful.
lol.. You use power attack at low lvls.. not AC junk. Power attack +canifex at lvl4 = everythings dead in 1 swing, maybe 2-3 tell u get a crit on a boss.


I would also turn SF:Intim into Toughness. +3 to intimidate isn't as good as 22 more hp in my opinion.
Yea i think i'll change that, will make the build look nicer on paper anyways. Depends on my overall endgame score tho if id get it or not.


running a 60+ intimidate DC.
Way too low for this build. The goal is 70+. But we'll see how it works out, depends a lot on gear. (Epic LoB no fail intim is 78 i believe, tho no fail isn't critical on him.)


Ditch the +2 int tome and pop a +2 str and con tome at level 7.
Thats rather illogical. Why wouldn't one just eat all 3, or hell all 6.. Every stat is useful to this build.


Drop dex to 8 and put the points into Cha(Start with 9) for better intimidates.
Ok this is when you lost all credibility. Anyone who says dex is a dump stat on a tank build really has no idea. Get more experience in the game, then start making suggestions.


Dwarves gain +4 to their dodge checks, and as such don't need any points in dex to keep their balance checks high. A +6 dex item, ship buffs, and +2 dex tome will knock out any penalties and give you significant bonuses to your reflex saves.
You simply will not hit the balance marks wanted if you dump it.
Here's a breakdown:
10 Ranks (max crossclass)
15 Item (Fabricators bracers is all that fits into my tank gear setup above)
4 Dwarven Bonus
=
29 without dex.
Score needed to properly tank Ronny or Margie in MA without getting knocked around like a noob: 35. We will also be wearing a shield - probably we will have leviks (-6) and not lorriks, but lets say we got lucky enough to get both and are wearing loriks, only -1 balance = 28.
So we need 6 from dex.
8 dex +6 item +2 tome +2ship = 18, +4 mod
32 = not enough.
Bard song = 34, not enough.
Dont dump dex?
Hit the mark, stable as a rock.
(and no, we can't rely on GH, or other buffs. Ronny disables all buffs remember)

Ideally we can hit the mark with a tower shield like leviks tho for the top damage mitigation, and thats another +5 balance required.. Not easy if you dump dex. We could do it by putting on a +15 balance ring tho (at a cost of -3 strength, really negates that extra 1 build does doesnt it?) (makes +20 from item since fab bracers partially stack)

Oh ya, this also assumes your wearing a robe.. If you wanna wear a nice tank set like deneith chain or cav plate, youll need a bunch more balance.

I've played the game 5+ years, tanked everything there is to tank and thought these things out quite well. Dumping dex is an utterly horrible idea on a tank. Not for AC reasons. But for balance and reflex save reasons.

And want to know how many tanks i've seen lose agro/die/screw up my raids because there balance was too low in master artiificer?
Way too many.

Regarding low lvl effeciency anyways: I will mostly likely be taking a barbarian level or 2, focusing more on dmg feats/enahncmeents (maybe even kensai) and sprinting around like a full blow bbn to lvl fast, then doing a lesser TR at lvl20 into this spec. Thats just my preference tho, theres nothing wrong with playing more tankish throughout the whole game.

[Seager52]

I dont know if this was mentioned being that there are alot of responses to be read thru, and frankly I just dont care enough to read every line of them....I did skim them however

The thing is Rage and Madstone rage do not work while in Defencive Stance, so dont add those into your "Max HP". If you hit your madstone boots no icon shows up and no effects gained. This was quite frustrating due to the fact that I had 3 sets on my now Defender.

Again disregard if this statment was already made.

[Varashad]

Ok this is when you lost all credibility. Anyone who says dex is a dump stat on a tank build really has no idea. Get more experience in the game, then start making suggestions.


Fair enough, although if I'm not mistaken a healing amp or incite DT robe would be better than anything else for a tank, but then, I'm a newb. Regardless, I like your builds and guides.

One thing regarding balance checks, you might try to stick two levels of rogue on your build for Evasion and class skill balance. You'll still need intelligence, but you'll be able to achieve a much higher base score, and thus negate the need for a +15 item(maybe).

[Habreno]

Fair enough, although if I'm not mistaken a healing amp or incite DT robe would be better than anything else for a tank, but then, I'm a newb. Regardless, I like your builds and guides.

One thing regarding balance checks, you might try to stick two levels of rogue on your build for Evasion and class skill balance. You'll still need intelligence, but you'll be able to achieve a much higher base score, and thus negate the need for a +15 item(maybe).


:O


No comment. I'll let Shade rip this apart.

[Shade]

I dont know if this was mentioned being that there are alot of responses to be read thru, and frankly I just dont care enough to read every line of them....I did skim them however

The thing is Rage and Madstone rage do not work while in Defencive Stance, so dont add those into your "Max HP". If you hit your madstone boots no icon shows up and no effects gained. This was quite frustrating due to the fact that I had 3 sets on my now Defender.

Again disregard if this statment was already made.

It's already been made and replied to, but I'll repeat it:

The madstone is put into a seperate non-sustainable section for a reason:
You can get it, but not sustain it.

How:
Unstance.
Madstone click.
Get hit for madstone2.
Stance.
It will work for the ~1:50ish left to go, but won't reproc.

I'll make some further refinements to the HP breakdowns later to make this more clear. Prolly fairer to put the artificer buff into sustainable section, 10min with extend is certainly sustainable.

[Shade]

slight update..
4th toughness at 18.. SF: Intim still listed as option ,depends on gear.. I'll break it down later but i think we can hit a reasonable score without it.

Improved sunder changed to greater weapon spec..

Improved sunder kinda sucks on THF/S&B.. Works well for TWF as they get a double proc, but so slow and thf/s&b.

That and 10% fort just isn't a big enough amount to warrant a feat. (and for AC purposes we can still use regular sunder)
And we wont be wearing marilith chain on this guy much, mainly deneith chain or DT armor for healing amp.

Let the DPS build fighters with mari chain do it, they'll get DCs 10-15 points higher.

[Astraghal]

Just looking over this thread again. Maybe with gear you could go:


Head: Pirate Hat (Seeker +6, Balance +15)
Eyes: Greensteel Goggles (+45 HP, +6 DEX skills, Air Guard)/Tharne's
Neck: Finger Necklace/Shintao Cord
Trinket: Epic Brawn's Spirits (Luck +2)/Pale Lavender/Cove trinket/Litany
Back: Epic Envenomed Cloak (Toughness)/Epic Cloak of Night
Waist: Belt of the Defenders of Siberys
Arms: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Hands: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Ring: Band of Siberys (exceptional STR +2)
Ring: Kyosho's Ring (20% healing amplification)
Boots: Madstone Boots/Epic Boots of Corrosion (Green Slot) (Colorless Slot)
Armor: Epic Cavalry Plate (Blue Slot)
Weapon: +5 Holy Burst Adamantine Dwarven Axe of Greater Construct Bane/Smiting
Shield: Levik's Defender (or crafted options)


Swapping in the DoS set for the 15% threat set bonus frees up the neck slot for a Finger Necklace, if the healing amp is worth it.

If you can incorporate an Insight item into your gear then that's +4 to skills/saves. Epic Swashbuckler is perfect for this in addition to the 6% doublestrike, but it's light so you absorb 10% less damage.

I don't know if you can stack any more Intimidate without losing in other areas, you could have either +6 to DEX or CHA skills using goggles. Should be able to hit low 70's Intimidate without too much trouble.

You can incorporate Epic Ring of Baphomet or Epic Cape of the Roc for exceptional STR/CON, but I think ToD rings offer the best combinations.

Could swap back in Stalwart set and free belt slot too for Epic Mroranon, while cloak slot remains open for possible Epic Envenomed (+1 CON) or Epic Cloak of Night (deathblock, blur, ghost touch).

You can drop the Epic Cavalry Plate for Epic Deneith Heavy Chain and gain a Colorless Slot but the inferior nature of the HP guard and the lack of Resistance +5 on the EDHC would require more gear rearranging (ie: Epic Envenomed).

With this gear you could have major buffs like True Seeing, Freedom of Movement, Deathblock and Blur in place upon ressurrection, allowing you to get back into the action again as quickly as possible.

Lots of slots available for +2 Luck, Toughness, +6 ability, +1 exceptional ability etc.

[Seager52]

It's already been made and replied to, but I'll repeat it:

The madstone is put into a seperate non-sustainable section for a reason:
You can get it, but not sustain it.

How:
Unstance.
Madstone click.
Get hit for madstone2.
Stance.
It will work for the ~1:50ish left to go, but won't reproc.

I'll make some further refinements to the HP breakdowns later to make this more clear. Prolly fairer to put the artificer buff into sustainable section, 10min with extend is certainly sustainable.

Awww I didnt try that, thank you for the re post on that information. I assume this works on standard rage as well, or just is it just mad stone? Regardless I will give it a try when I get off work.

Arty buff is definatly sustainable, given that you have an artificer in group that is.

As per balance I am really going to have to work on getting my penlty down. I have been thinking about using the swashbuckler so I can hit the 35 mark for MA. The only other question I have is does anyone know if Improved Shield Mastery uses the light shield % or the heavy. I know it says light shield but it is the properties of a heavy shield. Would love some feedback on this.

[NovaNZ]

Am trying this out - lvl 7 presently 1st life 32 point dwarf.
Carnifex/maul mainly. Tower shield with Daxe. Have put in Brutal Throw for improved versitility.
Over 200HP lvl 7. BAB seems a bit loose (even without PA on). Trip works well enough.

[~SyZoRe]

I wonder if going 18 fighter and 2 monk will also work, u get evasion and more feats and you basically lose only the capstone..

any thoughts?

[Arshan]

I wonder if going 18 fighter and 2 monk will also work, u get evasion and more feats and you basically lose only the capstone..

any thoughts?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344637

Looks solid too imo

[Shade]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344637

Looks solid too imo

850 hp fully buffed. Looks squishy to me. Too much focus on AC. Probably good for normal, poor for epic.

That said a 18/2 variant of my build should be fine. Can actaully get an extra toughness doing that. Just sacrifices some dps, so threat may be an issue.

[Astraghal]

Can anyone confirm that the threat from items like Epic Brawns Spirits and Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys is working correctly?

I've stacked Epic Claw set, Epic Brawns Spirits, Stalwart Set, GTWF, 40 unbuffed STR, ship buffs, Gloves of the Titans Grip, Kensai Power Surge, Madstone Rage and Fighter Haste Boost IV and still lose aggro sometimes. That would seem impossible if these items were working correctly and noone else is using them too.

I've started using the Epic Cloak of Night as well and while it doesn't cause you to lose aggro on an Invisibility Guard proc, it does seem to cause the mob lose sight of you and stop hitting for a second to look around again.

But I still see mobs turning when I use all that gear so I wonder..

[Shade]

Can anyone confirm that the threat from items like Epic Brawns Spirits and Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys is working correctly?

I've stacked Epic Claw set, Epic Brawns Spirits, Stalwart Set, GTWF, 40 unbuffed STR, ship buffs, Gloves of the Titans Grip, Kensai Power Surge, Madstone Rage and Fighter Haste Boost IV and still lose aggro sometimes. That would seem impossible if these items were working correctly and noone else is using them too.

I've started using the Epic Cloak of Night as well and while it doesn't cause you to lose aggro on an Invisibility Guard proc, it does seem to cause the mob lose sight of you and stop hitting for a second to look around again.

But I still see mobs turning when I use all that gear so I wonder..

Pretty sure it all works fine.

Had nicks stalwart with pretty sure all the same gear u listed tank epic LoB tonight.

I took power of the forge on my max DPS half orb bbn, and went full on at him, with brute fighting enabled. Dmg boost and I crit him for 1080 (no bards so thats why it was weak ;p). ~250-300 total non crit per swing. I was doing thousands and thousands of damage. He even started to sheild block so I could take over tanking when he got - LoB stayed firmly on the defender. Defenders get AWESOME threat. He is half orc with 80+ intim tho, so he has MASSIVE threat potential.

I did manage to pull agro later on after really trying (at a moment when it was safe to do so), power of forge + dmg boost again, and didnt give him much of a headstart, 5 or so swings. But with a ~6 seconds headstart and a intim, I cant match his threat.

Tho vice versa works too, If I build up and he doesnt intim, i can hold him too. The intim makes a big difference in threat, but not so much thats its actaully required imo - just VERY useful.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Solid as always Shade,

I have a question.
I have my SD III, Human, Bastie spec (that wont change) thats very close to this build you have.
I'm going to TR him into the same thing. (I want the points for cha)

1) Stay human?

2) I really dont see the need to stay w/ SD to cap . If I splash something. Whats the best choice, and when do I take the splash.

[Boromirs]

Pretty sure it all works fine.

Had nicks stalwart with pretty sure all the same gear u listed tank epic LoB tonight.

I took power of the forge on my max DPS half orb bbn, and went full on at him, with brute fighting enabled. Dmg boost and I crit him for 1080 (no bards so thats why it was weak ;p). ~250-300 total non crit per swing. I was doing thousands and thousands of damage. He even started to sheild block so I could take over tanking when he got - LoB stayed firmly on the defender. Defenders get AWESOME threat. He is half orc with 80+ intim tho, so he has MASSIVE threat potential.

I did manage to pull agro later on after really trying (at a moment when it was safe to do so), power of forge + dmg boost again, and didnt give him much of a headstart, 5 or so swings. But with a ~6 seconds headstart and a intim, I cant match his threat.

Tho vice versa works too, If I build up and he doesnt intim, i can hold him too. The intim makes a big difference in threat, but not so much thats its actaully required imo - just VERY useful.

Was nick using an epic chim fang, with one equipped there would be no way in tartarus that you would be able to come close to his threat. The damage is significantly more then any crafted DA and then you throw on top of that the +25% threat (on top of all existing threat)... hrmm... although come to think of it just getting enough threat to get aggro is really all thats needed, getting anymore is kinda a waste.

[azmodeus1]

cmon....lets see some gear listings already. ^

[Astraghal]

cmon....lets see some gear listings already. ^

Question is, how much threat do you really need (when the adults in the raid are actually cooperating)?

Need to find out in practice and work back from there.

Would be awesome if eClaw set was the only incite item you'd need.

[Boromirs]

Think the game is beginning to shift focus... threat is now just as important as actual damage... and as the game gets harder especially at the upper levels if you don't have someone tomaintain consistent aggro you may very well fail the raid.

[bigtaff]

Have my toon at level 14 atm and loving it

[Shade]

Was nick using an epic chim fang,
mm crafted khopesh or bsword i think.

[Nephilia]

I'm trying to do a mix from AC tank and Meatshield Tank and it looks nice imho!
Human 65% healing amp, 87 AC standing and 46 str (this last with yugo and boat, anyway)!
What I'm thinking now is try to improve my health a bit!
I'm sitting now at 900-930 hp and I would like to beat the 1000+ hp-edge!
To this purpose my only hope is to drop sentinel feats and chimera's stuffs (I know.. I will lost 20 hp from crown but with 3 feats free I will easily regain that)!

By you, shade, which weapon would be a nice threat generated?
U don't have sentinels and chimera's things too so I was wondering what are u planning to use!
Some Lit II GS? MIN II? Some epic weapon? Something else?
Help me please :D
(remember that I'm a human so I can't use neither dwarven axe nor kophesh assuming I wont spend a feat for 'em :\)

[CaptainPurge]

Does this build have a name besides "Ultimate Epic HP Tank"? I like how it so strongly leverages the dwarven bonuses that so many players disregard as being less than important. My PL barb + PL fighter is looking for a new life, longtime overdue, perhaps a quick pally PL first then this. Not much item grinding needed, just would have to finish 2 epic items which I can do on alts anyway. Yes, yes I think I will be seeing the Heart of Wind soon....

[Epitome]

yea human can work.. I think human should prolly splash 2 paladin for saves tho.. Just going pure fighter with no way to boost saves is just not very tankish vs bosses with heavy spell casting like horoth, arraetrikos, abbot, abishai, hell most of em have some strong spells mainly with reflex/fort saves. Dwarves saves bonus is something that you should never underestimate. I mean in pnp its only +2, and by most accounts the races are balanced.. Humans dont exactly get enhancements for more bonus feats.. I think it gives Dwarves the tanking edge. Humans do have the dps edge now with dmg boost which I think is dumb, but oh well, these arent dps builds anyways.

Don't really like the fang build myself. Too much investment for one weapon. But if you have an affinity for bastard swords anyways, its not too bad.

I do think Dwarf deserves a boost in overall power tho since humans have been getting so many over the years.

One major one i've asked for many times is really a bug fix more then a boost:
Give dwarves there proper stability bonuses.. +4 versus all knockdown effects, not just titan hammers aoe and balance checks as it is now. (titan hammer direct strikes are Strength, tho the save DCs are impossible anyways atm, and would still be with +4, its actaully possible to block them tho with skilled timing, but the balance check still applies to blocked slams)


I transferred a tank from thelanis to khyber and geared him out (mid 80's self AC) with ESoS, although the feats are expensive for chimera's fang full potential the 395% hate during intims are sick. The saves with GH / Stance on the human, all-be-it a very geared toon, float between mid 30's to low 40's depending on buffs which works well in eLob (AC actually work in ToD but worthless in epic of course). Hard/Elite ToDs the build doesn't actually need a healer looking over them which is nice.

I was trying to be a bit creative with mine and did 18 ftr, 1 rogue, 1 monk (only because 19 ftr did not net me anything great, 1 monk for a little better saves out of the flexible level). The reason was simply hamstring. This feat is so overpowered in controlling raid bosses I simply had to have it. I'm not thoroughly impressed with the level on constraint hamstring places on LoB's attacks but in ToDs, Shrouds, etc it is plain disgusting. THF feats with provide for great synergy switching between eFang and eSoS. Improved sunder with eFang is a total of 14% fortification debuff which works quite well (when tanking, eSoS when not). Improved shield bash's 20% offhand attack chance actually seems to fire off more than 20% of the time. Depending on the level of cannith crafting I recommend custom raid shields. At 395% hate (assuming it stacks like heal amp) during the 12ish seconds after intim a +5 Adamantine Holyburst Shield of Greater Construct Bane greatly assists in hate generation. Using human dmg boost, ftr haste boost, and custom raid boss shield I sometimes believe my dps is higher than twitching eSoS but I have not data to prove this.

At least these builds are more fun/challenging in high dps groups than they used to be. You actually have to work and play intelligently or sh*t falls apart. Trying to talk some guildies into rolling some so I make take my dps toons and pull some spirits, lol. This seems like a great layout for all people to hop into and make. Two of these builds in eLoB almost ensures a quicker win.

[Nephilia]

Shade... I'm almost sure I would build this toon (soon I'll respec my fighter).
What equip are u planning to use?
Can u please help me with a gear-out?
TY :)

[Shade]

At 395% hate (assuming it stacks like heal amp) during the 12ish seconds after intim a +5 Adamantine Holyburst Shield of Greater Construct Bane greatly assists in hate generation.

Been pulling agro from max geared stalwarts with e-fang plenty on my bbn (wearing no threat gear cept claw set).. So quite sure it doesn't stack like that. It stacks in the worst possible way im sure - additively, and like amoutns dont stack.

So threat would be something like:
100% - base
10% - fang
15% - fang
20% - fang (no set threats, non stacking)
= 145%
pre:
+50% - defender in sword and board mode bonus
+75% - defender 3 stance bonus
=
195 + 75=
270%

vs say nicks build assuming if he had half-orc brute 4:
100% - base
10% - Epic Brawns
15% - Stalwart set
20% - Claw set
= 145%
pre:
+50% - defender in sword and board mode bonus
=195%
+75% - defender 3 stance bonus
=
195 + 75=
270%
+25% - halforc brute IV
= 295%

So if the stacking works this way, which I believe it does.. The chimera builds actaully behind a similar half orc build.. Or just tied with this build with optimal gear. Its threat bonuses probably only help those who otherwise are missing other threat gear.

Yours notes about shield bashing dps do make sense tho. I'll prolly pick it up and give it at least a bit of testing. With alchemical shields fixed, one loaded with stuff like doublestrike might be quite ideal for top dps/threat.

[Shadowaras]

I do agree that stalwart takes the lead by far on tankin things like elob ..Still after couple painfull tries with my pally at start going blind in elob to tank him i did a lr to him made him max intim 80 self buffd ,948 hp self buffd (1010 if arti is around ) , i didnt bother with ac at all since my aim was to prep fast an elob tank.

Equippd him with a fleshaper's brigandine with obsession upgrade (dbl.hate),madstone tower(had to,feats starvation :) ) ,20+30+10+20 heal amp.

Agreed that i did strugle to manage the feats and agreed it did cut down my dps as i had to make many corpromises but still is an easy build to make ( had useless past lifes 2xranger) and he does complete the raid each time with no pressure on the heals or the melees .

Tricky part is with correct buff usage (div.rights etc) and need something to boost your to hit (used +4 attack crafted googles ,with large slot for xtra hp).But if u have a noxius fang also +9 to aatck so u ok with the difficult ranged attacks also u set .

I do say these cause main thing ppl ask when we say lets do elob is "where is the tank" :) and actually is not that hard to make an epic rdy tank for him( also good for any tanking situation imo chrono ,edq etc) ...assuming u know the raid ,tanking tactics and have some skilled party members along .

I must admit though that im also in the process of making a 18/2 stalwart sentinel as its the best choice for this type of job ... Was just greedy with past lifes wanted 3xmonk,2pal,1bbn at least (gave up on more ) so finishin last now to make him since i gathered all gear also . :)

[Tirisha]

Been pulling agro from max geared stalwarts with e-fang plenty on my bbn (wearing no threat gear cept claw set)..



I've lost aggro the most in LOB than any other quest and at first I didn't get it, my Stalwart has ridiculous threat, but I later realized that the DR the dogs give the Lord slices my threat down hard while being something that an ESOS barb wouldn't even notice.

[sirgog]

I've lost aggro the most in LOB than any other quest and at first I didn't get it, my Stalwart has ridiculous threat, but I later realized that the DR the dogs give the Lord slices my threat down hard while being something that an ESOS barb wouldn't even notice.

Isn't that DR 25%/- (like Radiant Forcefield) per stack? I need to pay more attention next run, and deliberately let LOB get that buff once to check.

[Shadowaras]

Isn't that DR 25%/- (like Radiant Forcefield) per stack? I need to pay more attention next run, and deliberately let LOB get that buff once to check.

not sure about exact dr amount ..but im pretty sure it does raise his saves intim check etc.

[Tirisha]

Isn't that DR 25%/- (like Radiant Forcefield) per stack? I need to pay more attention next run, and deliberately let LOB get that buff once to check.

Hmm my gut tells me it would be just static 25 dr/- but I can't be for sure. It brings my AC monks swings down to almost nothing and cripples the threat of my SD who hits for about 50 base damage a swing with her scimmy.

I've been meaning to test it though I am pretty sure the buff stays on the lord for about 10-20 seconds even after the dogs are no longer in range. From my experience on my tanks I think it's a bit odd how often people ask me why we don't just kite the dogs when I lead a pug.

[Shade]

Isn't that DR 25%/- (like Radiant Forcefield) per stack? I need to pay more attention next run, and deliberately let LOB get that buff once to check.

Yea exactly like radiant forcefield cept it can double stack (1 from each hound).

It's -25% from ALL incoming damage (50% double stacked), so not technically damge reduction ,as it applies to spells too..
It does not affect him in any other way.

The dogs pulse out the buff every once in a while, not constantly. It affects all monsters in a large aoe - rougly double the standard aoe, including wf and quori trash if they are around.

The only damage type unaffected is untyped.. So a barbarians frenzy dmg continues to do full damage which is nice and would let them get slightly less affected by it. But other then that it affects everyone equally.

But I run the raid with a proper strategy... so the LoB never gets the buff unless he gets lucky and jumps directly by a hound.. and I pull agro from efang tanks no problem regardless.

[Faent]

850 hp fully buffed. Looks squishy to me. Too much focus on AC. Probably good for normal, poor for epic.

That said a 18/2 variant of my build should be fine. Can actaully get an extra toughness doing that. Just sacrifices some dps, so threat may be an issue.

I don't understand these sorts of comments, which pop up all over the place. If you're running 150%+ incite on a decent DPS build with intimidate, you aren't going to lose aggro to anyone by sacrificing a little DPS (unless they are morons who are using all *their* threat-gen gear). You don't need to be max-DPS to hold aggro. Seriously. Threat will NOT be an issue.

[smithj_2020]

Currently doing this build just lil different.

PL Barb: Dwarf build
STR:17
DEX:10
CON:19
INT:12
WIS:8
CHA:8

FEATS:
Toughness X 6
Beserkers Fury
Combat EXP
Improve Sunder
Improve Trip
SF:Intim
THF
ITHF
GTHF
SF:UMD
IC:Slashing
WF:Slashing

level 7: W/ ship buffs
262 hps (stalwart mode I)(no false life item as of yet)
STR:30 (+2 tome) (all level ups of course)
DEX: 15 (+2 tome)
CON: 31 (I think, +3 tome waiting)
INT: 15 (+1 tome)
WIS: 12
CHA: 12 (+2 tome)

GEAR at 20:
Epic Denieth Heavy Chain
Epic Antique GA
Fabricators Bracers
Epic Gloves of Claw
GS HP Cloak
Epic Belt of Mroranon
Epic Red Dragon Helm
GS Str skill Goggles
Encrusted Ring +2 str
Cinders Band 20% heal AMP
Epic Brawns Spirits or Bloodstone
GS CHA skill Item to swap for goggles also (for scroll use)

should have few more HPs then shades build, just from the extra toughness feats, but same thing all in all. Very cool build so far.
Iam wrecking quests at level 7, currently holding level 8, and im running level 8 quests on elite and have no problems killing mobs; Trip Land almost every time (havent taken improved trip yet), Improve sunder always hits. Dont use hirelings most times.

Combo Trip--->improve Sunder
even tho not an AC build, when I throw Combat Exp on i think AC is somewhere around 37-40...pretty fun, this is also my first TR....most say im actually loving it

[Clayness]

I just wanted to add that you *can* do 18 Fighter/2 Monk just fine, your DPS won't be as good as a THF pure fighter, but your threat should be roughly the same since you can abuse mountain stance. You gain evasion and one more bonus feat than you would have going pure fighter, and loose some DPS when not tanking, so you have to think about the trade.

This is a screenshot of my 18 Fighter/2 Monk tank while fully buffed (well, not entirely buffed, still have some buffs missing that I could have used to further boost HP).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Clay_More/HP3.png

[smithj_2020]

**** 1435? and still had buffs...wow how long could you maintain that for? what gear, buffs were you using....

im hoping to maintain 1150 regularly....

[hockeyrama]

first that screenshot is not fully buffed as mentioned but does include very short term buffs (if i remember like double madstone in stalwart stance).

Second, shade I ahve an 18 fighter 2 monk dual wield chimera fang user and wanted to add that one of the big benefits I have found for it over the horc is the fortification 50% bonus that was thrown in for having the marks. In Echrono there is a 50% debuff that happens sometimes so you will always have 100% fort. I only found out about it when i took aggro on another toon and tanked for awhile and since i tank alot I know how much damage to expect and knew somethign was wrong and then started noting it and found that others noticed it the odd time (it may be a fort save so may not matter for the tank but just a note).

Another huge benefit is that the efang gives it all on one item. Where the horc has to take a bunch of other items so will have more hate but might have less dps (horcs have more str from being horc but may have to say use brawns instead of a epic bloodstone or some other item -just an example). The more slots free you avhe the more options to put better gear.

The hate is additive and that was confirmed a long time ago.


I love your build and thinking of how to change one of my tanks into something along these lines ( have 3 a pure dps high hp hate, the 18firghter 2 monk and the emerald phoenix 2 but this one is better at damage reduction with the hps to survive the elob).

One question i had for you though was since evasion says it works as long as you don't have armor (so it does work with a shield) then do you think it might have been better to go 2 monk or 2 rogue and change the armor and gear to have evasion. Just thinking with the shield damage mitagition, and then add in evasion to eliminate alot of the spell damage from bosses like echrono, edq..... My main thinking is that you should be able to get everything you currently have but would just be adding evasions to further reduce your damage and doing it without changing your dps at all.

I would say go 18 fighter 2 monk for an extra feat for more hps :)

Anyway just curious to your thoughts.

[Shade]

I just wanted to add that you *can* do 18 Fighter/2 Monk just fine, your DPS won't be as good as a THF pure fighter, but your threat should be roughly the same since you can abuse mountain stance. You gain evasion and one more bonus feat than you would have going pure fighter, and loose some DPS when not tanking, so you have to think about the trade.

This is a screenshot of my 18 Fighter/2 Monk tank while fully buffed (well, not entirely buffed, still have some buffs missing that I could have used to further boost HP).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Clay_More/HP3.png

How do you abuse mountain stance?
Thought it didn't work with shields, which is kind of a big part of this build, or any top stalwart tank.

I'm considering a monk lvl for that xtra toughness feat and misc stuff..

Though also considering 18/1/1 ftr/bbn/rogue. Sprints, Hamstring...

Course id have to actually finish lvling him.. On his third/final life now, but sitting at 6 and cant get in the mood to grind xp.

[Clayness]

I use Mountain Stance quite alot actually, when tanking anything besides the hardest content. Its only on really tough fights I switch to sword n'board

[Shade]

I use Mountain Stance quite alot actually, when tanking anything besides the hardest content. Its only on really tough fights I switch to sword n'board

With what weaponry though?

[Clayness]

You mean what weapons I use while in mountain stance, or when I'm sword n' board?

[Faent]

You mean what weapons I use while in mountain stance, or when I'm sword n' board?

Why not just answer both questions and get it over with, instead of dragging the thread out?

[Clayness]

Both in sword n' board mode and in unarmed mode I rely almost exlusively on crafted weapons.

Sword n' board I have crafted longswords (anarchic burst silver of GEOB, axiomatic burst cold iron of GEOB, holy burst of GCB) and Levik's Defender.

Unarmed I use virtually the same, anarchic burst silver of GEOB, axiomatic burst cold iron of GEOB, vicious of GBC.

What I use depends alot on raid.

TOD I often tank exlusively unarmed. Horoth I use unarmed until Suulo spawns, since there's often more healer attention on the tank until one healer needs to break off to heal the Suulo tank. At that point I use sword n' board.

VOD I tank unarmed

HOX i tank with sword n' board

MA i tank with sword n' board

LoTB I tank with sword n' board

Chronoscope I tank unarmed

DQ/VON I naturally stick to unarmed

[Lighti]

AC is utterly ineffective in the hardest endgame content, so building for it simply does not make sense on a character with these goals, even if the PrE selected does offer some bonuses.

Already proven AC works in epics. Would appreciate it if people would research and find out 1st rather than talking nonsense that they have not even tested. AC even works against Elite Lord of Blades. Although i do agree that on Epic Raid Bosses you are better going DPS and Healing Amp.




Top DPS. While there will be as little as possible sacrifices to DPS, obviously a half orc kensai/berserker will do much better.

You are missing:
1 Stregnth (17 base)
Fighter Stregnth III
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Fighter Dwarevn Waraxe Specialization II

This adds up to 3 damage a hit. Thats more than a ToD set. Same as 3 PL monk. Nearly an Epic Claw set.

Fighter Stregnth III i agree is not really worth it for 6 AP. But tier II of the Weapon Damage stuff is not expensive and should be taken.
Important thing about a tank is to remember that you are not always tanking, you must be able to do DPS aswell.



Str 17 = +5 level ups.. While I hate sacrifcing even a single point of strenght on a melee build, it's really neccesary here, as you otherwise have to lose too much hitpoints or skill points to max it.


Oh no, you loose 24 hp (Sarcasm). When you are on 1000 hp, 24 hp is nothing. You can tank epic LoB on 850 hp easily with out any resource usage.



Dex - Still have some points here because reflex save and balance skill is very important for a tank.


Saves are nice yes, but its a waste when there are better places to put build points. You use 3 build points to gain 2 more reflex. These points could go into stregnth. Every bit of damage counts and is always used.


The build is good yes. But it is not Ultimate.

[mcgee80]

im lookin for a build class drow or human must be epic Self reliant paladin that able to do epic quest witout strugling im tr'in from a cleric so want the build to be cleric past life my email is yank1981@hotmail.co.uk or toon name mrsemperfi on khyber server plz can anyone help me out plz

[Shade]

Already proven AC works in epics. Would appreciate it if people would research and find out 1st rather than talking nonsense that they have not even tested. AC even works against Elite Lord of Blades. Although i do agree that on Epic Raid Bosses you are better going DPS and Healing Amp.


And what you quoted never said "all epics"
It said "hardest content in the game"

Which is 100% true and you know that as well as me.

Thanks to some anon players we happen to know lob exact stats, and thus exactly what he'd do on elite far as AC goes.
He has a +91 to hit, and 12d20+17 damage..
Thus on elite, if you had 95 AC, youd reduce 20% of the hits down. If you had 112 AC, youd reduce 30% of the hits to none, and the rest down a whole 17 points to his massive base dmg of 12d20 (grazing hits)..

Thats how well it works - terribly as is intended. If it worked much better it could trivalize the raid as it does with other content like vod. And anyone with suche an AC, made such huge sacrifices in other areas that hes a plain inferior tank compared to one who didnt.

The rest of your comments are silly nickpicking over a whole 1-3 stat points. If you feel they are best spent elsewhere, do so.. Trying to demeen the build over it is a pretty silly.

[Lighti]

And what you quoted never said "all epics"
It said "hardest content in the game"


Your quote was 'AC is utterly ineffective in the hardest endgame content'

End game content is 20 and upwards, the hardest of this being Epic wich is lvl 25. You never specified it was a tank for just eLoB.




He has a +91 to hit, and 12d20+17 damage..
Thus on elite, if you had 95 AC, youd reduce 20% of the hits down. If you had 112 AC, youd reduce 30% of the hits to none, and the rest down a whole 17 points to his massive base dmg of 12d20 (grazing hits)..


He does grazing hits on 13-19. Grazing hits do not proc mournlands debuff. Mournlands is a major limiting factor in the raid.

If you reach 101 AC. He can only hit you on 11 and upwards. That is a 50% miss chance. 50% is an enourmous benefit. 100 AC is reasonable to hit with buffs and debuffs on the boss.


The rest of your comments are silly nickpicking over a whole 1-3 stat points. If you feel they are best spent elsewhere, do so.. Trying to demeen the build over it is a pretty silly.

I was picking over 3 damage per swing. 3 damage is a huge difference.
The build is good yes, but not ultimate.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

I was picking over 3 damage per swing. 3 damage is a huge difference.
The build is good yes, but not ultimate.

Seriously...?

Since when is 3 damage a "huge" difference? I've soloed elite A New Invasion while drinking SF potions the entire time and it didn't take me any longer to kill trash than it normally does. When you deal something like +60 base damage minimum, 3 extra points of damage becomes worth less than 5% of the overall output. It's not crippling to the build in any way whatsoever.

Last time I checked, the most important feature about a tank is staying alive. Your job isn't to deal the maximum amount of damage possible, it's to keep the boss off the rest of the group. This is why we use things like Yugoloth Essence of Desire to add more HP at the cost of melee attack speed. Yes, dealing damage is very important for holding aggro and helping to lower the boss's HP, but it's not the main focus of the tank. Tradeoffs have to be made.

[Lighti]

Think about how many times you attack in a boss fight then multiply that by the damage you loose. People go to no end of work just to gain 1 point of damage, let alone 3.

Something as simple as spending 6 AP to gain 2 damage per swing is basic and should be done. Take off the last tier of each Toughness line. You loose 24 hp. Gain 2 damage per swing and 2 AP still left over.

[smithj_2020]

I think the build is ultimate in the ultimate total of hps that can be obtained, and also the build is a monster tank and has a ton of dps...

doesn say ultimate DPS...Ultimate HP tank

[BDS]

Work in Progress:

----- (Toughness Feats Selected 3x, bersker pl 1x)
108 - Toughness/PL Feats
80 - 8 Toughness Enhancements
= 793 Feated/Enhanced


Not sure if someone brought this up before but how are you getting 108 from 3 toughness feats/pl? Should be 86 no?

[Shade]

100 AC is reasonable to hit with buffs and debuffs on the boss.


lol.. reasonable.. lol.

Enough improbable talk taht would never ever happen ever in the real game.

Lets see your video of your 100 AC tank on elite lob.

Your just too caught up on the fact you made a character around a stat that has no impact in the hardest endgame content. Sorry for you wasting your time, but it's a fact that any smart player understood.

I figured it out on my AC tank about 6 years ago when I realized I was pretty much always using power attack and my two hander because anywhere my AC worked, the game was too easy anyways, so i might as well go dps mode an do it faster.. Even back then, getting an AC that worked on the hardest content was so difficult and required so many other character sacrifices that it wasn't worth it.

Some take a bit longer to get it I guess.

[Shade]

Not sure if someone brought this up before but how are you getting 108 from 3 toughness feats/pl? Should be 86 no?

thanks, fixed. Build has 4 feats in it.

[Lighti]

90 AC + 4 Bard + 1 Haste + 3 Ship + 2 Recitation + 2 Arti + 2 Paladin = 104

Cursespewing Weapon + Improved Cursespewing Weapon + Curse + Crushing Dispair = 14

Thats effectively 118 AC. 100 is Reasonable.

You just stated your error there shade. 6 Years ago you played an AC tank. Game has changed. AC tank's are the best anywhere bar epic, and even then that is what alternate set ups are for. Elite Tod, you use under 1 healers mana bar (no scrolls involved). Elite Tod and VoD Sullomdes can not curse you a single time due to not being able to hit.

I think its you that needs to learn Shade. Barbs are not the be all and end all of the game.


Also explain to me what Charecter Sacrifices AC tanks have to make.
All i have lost is damaging ToD sets. I can equip them easily when i do not require AC so that is not a loss.
There is no need to sit on 1000 hp or over. I can tank eChrono and eLoB with my 800 hp easily so that is not a loss.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

90 AC + 4 Bard + 1 Haste + 3 Ship + 2 Recitation + 2 Arti + 2 Paladin = 104

Cursespewing Weapon + Improved Cursespewing Weapon + Curse + Crushing Dispair = 14



And how exactly are you doing that? Are you dual wielding a Cursespewing and Improved Cursespewing weapon in each hand? The wiki specifically says:



Improved Cursespewing

The curse is the same as the one bestowed by a non-improved Cursespewing weapon, however, so it will not stack with it. http://ddowiki.com/page/Cursespewing


No wait, wait I got another one: How are you constantly maintaining recitation on yourself? I would really like to know how you can convince an average PuG group to constantly maintain all of those debuffs on the LoB. They just aren't capable of that kind of attention span.

The numbers you're proposing are non-realistic and would only appear under ideal circumstances or when running with the same people over and over again.

[Shade]

The numbers you're proposing are non-realistic and would only appear under ideal circumstances or when running with the same people over and over again.

Yep lol, and not only would that never happen ever.. The funnier part is, you know how many people have run an elite lob in the last couple months? Pretty close to zero i'd say.

Because its not only foolish to try, but it's illogical to run it. Because it's a TON harder then hard, yet the reward doesn't really change.

99% of runs are norm/hard/epic, elite is skiped for very obvious reaosns. So the one place where his made up unrealistic numbers might help him, never get run. As hard is easy enough to tank on no-ac barbarian - and preferable since its faster and done with zero resources very frequently, and epic his AC even with all that unrealistic stuff would still do nothing.

[Lighti]

Curse, Cursepwewing, and Improved Cursespewing do stack.

I never suggested using all those buffs. I showed a way of reaching 118 AC.
This shows reaching 101 AC is reasonable for a 50% miss chance.

Shade, the debate was you thinking that AC would not work on elite. I have proven you wrong. You are now just looking for random excuses to make yourself look big and clever, kind of like a child.

[Faent]

The DEVs have really screwed the pooch here in trying to make real tanks valuable. Front-loading all the Lord of Blades damage is utter garbage. They already screwed the pooch with the grazing hit mechanic. Now they've introduced grazing hits that are effectively total hits. If anyone had any hope that Turbine was going to do anything to make AC matter, they should give it up now.

A "grazing hit" of 12d20 on a mob that does 12d20 + 17 damage is moronic, and it's a joke to call it a grazing hit. What's next? Is Turbine going to frontload 99% of all future damage now so that AC becomes worthless in N/H/E content?

Frankly, an AC build isn't ideal in LoB. Yes, AC is useful, even in Elite. Nerfing over 50% of the damage is useful in some runs, but it'd be better to run Normal and Hard with a high-HP high-healing AMP toon, and way better to run epic with such a toon.

I'm not sure Shade's build is ideal either. A helf monk-dilly 18 FTR / 2 PAL has way better healing amp and awesome saves. I suspect that build will dominate this one in all LoB content.

[Hobgoblin]

yo shade -

I didnt look through every post, so im not sure if this was asked or not-

would this build work with multiclassing or not?

(im thinking not)

2 rogue = evasion with decent saves - you lose 2? feats and gain umd for self heals other then sf pots
2 monk = evasion/saves/boost/ 2 more toughness feats

6 pally doesnt seem worth it but would give you the cha bonus to saves and divine right for more threat.

blue bar splashes - dont make me laugh

6 ranger - you get the same 10% double strike as capstone and have to spend it on worthless feats

arti- umd bonus and rune arm use? might be interesting

just some random thoughts while i am on pain pills

Im leaning towards the pure build being the best for this though

Hob

[Faent]

yo shade -

I didnt look through every post, so im not sure if this was asked or not-

would this build work with multiclassing or not?

(im thinking not)

2 rogue = evasion with decent saves - you lose 2? feats and gain umd for self heals other then sf pots
2 monk = evasion/saves/boost/ 2 more toughness feats

6 pally doesnt seem worth it but would give you the cha bonus to saves and divine right for more threat.

18/2 will work just fine with double splashes of rogue, monk or paladin. You don't need more threat, so 6 PAL is silly. 18/2 Monk beats 18/2 Rogue by far if you're focused on tanking. More feats beats the ability to scroll-heal in these situations. If you can't rely on your healers even when you have Silver Flame pots, you have a serious problem with your healers. Why are you trying to run Epic Lord of Blade with them?

18/2 Paladin is an excellent choice. But if you want to make the most of that, you should consider a half-elf with a monk dilly for the insane healing amplification available. You'll also want to revisit the stat distribution, since you'll be adding your CHA bonus to your saves.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Curse, Cursepwewing, and Improved Cursespewing do stack.

This one line I tested for myself and by my findings I agree with you. I have edited that same wiki page to account for this (sorry if my image is too big, it's my first upload to a wiki).

[Lillou]

Thinking of TR my brainless dps fighter into your build… I don't have all the equipment but don't plan on tanking eLoB either (because you do it so well anyway, why would I do it !).


So I put your build in the planner… and found couple little errors ;)

lvl 11 : you can't take "Fighter extra Action Boost I" Requires: Any of Fighter Action Boost IV (we are at III max and not enough point to take IV)
lvl 15 : fighter dwarven waraxe specialization I : Requires : Feat : Weapon Specialization : Slashing Weapon (which you offer at 18) so can be taken at that moment

so as I couldn't take the Extra Action Boost… I have 2 point left… which is not enough for Haste Boost IV...
I was thinking of dropping dwarven waraxe specialization to get 3 points and put them in one of those ?

improved intimidate III
crit accuracy I and II
strategy Trip I and II
item defense III


questions :

Spot (Cross class, but worth it - fit as many points as you can in here) --> why do I need spot ? ?
I have only 3 fighters past life on this toon… is it worth taking the fighter past life feat… or better taking greater Weapon Focus Slashing


ty a lot for your build :) looking forward to try it, I just hope it will work on a brainless dwarf :eek: (I'm sure your dwarf is a smart one) :p

[smithj_2020]

I think 18/2 fighter/monk is the way to go:

Currently level 18 on this build(16/2) 800+ HPS saves around or above 20.

However I ran all vale quests elite solo an made saves and evaded almost everything! (wearing garments or equilibrium).

Hoping to get to 20 by the weekend see how good I can evade in epic chrono and so on, also I have been putting point in UMD with gear and such should be upwards or 34-36 before raid buffs. Loving the build so far

[Astraghal]

I'm still on the fence about what to do with my Fighter. I have most of the relevant gear for a solid tanking build (no ESoS or Alchemical). I'd want maximum build points and to use +3 tomes in some abilities. Which would mean a double TR and using the tomes on my last life. I bought the Monk class when it was on special over Christmas so that adds other possible dimensions. I'm just not sure if Dwarf is the right choice. Getting glancing blows off Dwarven Axe's is very appealing. I already have a few of those crafted.

[grodon9999]

I'm still on the fence about what to do with my Fighter. I have most of the relevant gear for a solid tanking build (no ESoS or Alchemical). I'd want maximum build points and to use +3 tomes in some abilities. Which would mean a double TR and using the tomes on my last life. I bought the Monk class when it was on special over Christmas so that adds other possible dimensions. I'm just not sure if Dwarf is the right choice. Getting glancing blows off Dwarven Axe's is very appealing. I already have a few of those crafted.

I like dorfs as tanks, I really do. What I'd really like is a compelling reason to stay a dorf on my tank. Hopefully we see some ENH love that makes this more optimal.

You do not need 1000+ HP to tank anything in this game. That little extra you get going dorf over human/helf is inconsequential. The additional 30-40% healing amp from human/helf is better.

Glancing blows on dorf axes is very nice. The Epic Chimera's fang is better.

Dorfs get saves bonuses, 40+ reflex save (modified and buffed of course) and evasion means my dorf gets missed by almost every AoE. Even in ELoB rain was missing me a lot and the comet falls in ELOB and EDQ all missed.

Is this worth the healing amp? In most content I'm gonna have to say no. ELOB is the "big" raid right now and that's all about damage absorption and scroll-healing (a stupid dynamic, but it's what we have) with damage mitigation not working. Healing amp from the other races pays off more at this time than what a dorf brings to the table.

Of course dorfs can tank the ELOB right now, we do it with our existing toons. But if i was going to TR or build something specifically for this it wouldn't be a dorf.

[Astraghal]

I like dorfs as tanks, I really do. What I'd really like is a compelling reason to stay a dorf on my tank. Hopefully we see some ENH love that makes this more optimal.

You do not need 1000+ HP to tank anything in this game. That little extra you get going dorf over human/helf is inconsequential. The additional 30-40% healing amp from human/helf is better.

Glancing blows on dorf axes is very nice. The Epic Chimera's fang is better.

Dorfs get saves bonuses, 40+ reflex save (modified and buffed of course) and evasion means my dorf gets missed by almost every AoE. Even in ELoB rain was missing me a lot and the comet falls in ELOB and EDQ all missed.

Is this worth the healing amp? In most content I'm gonna have to say no. ELOB is the "big" raid right now and that's all about damage absorption and scroll-healing (a stupid dynamic, but it's what we have) with damage mitigation not working. Healing amp from the other races pays off more at this time than what a dorf brings to the table.

Of course dorfs can tank the ELOB right now, we do it with our existing toons. But if i was going to TR or build something specifically for this it wouldn't be a dorf.

I agree.

[Shade]

I like dorfs as tanks, I really do. What I'd really like is a compelling reason to stay a dorf on my tank. Hopefully we see some ENH love that makes this more optimal.

You do not need 1000+ HP to tank anything in this game. That little extra you get going dorf over human/helf is inconsequential. The additional 30-40% healing amp from human/helf is better.

Glancing blows on dorf axes is very nice. The Epic Chimera's fang is better.

Dorfs get saves bonuses, 40+ reflex save (modified and buffed of course) and evasion means my dorf gets missed by almost every AoE. Even in ELoB rain was missing me a lot and the comet falls in ELOB and EDQ all missed.

Is this worth the healing amp? In most content I'm gonna have to say no. ELOB is the "big" raid right now and that's all about damage absorption and scroll-healing (a stupid dynamic, but it's what we have) with damage mitigation not working. Healing amp from the other races pays off more at this time than what a dorf brings to the table.

Of course dorfs can tank the ELOB right now, we do it with our existing toons. But if i was going to TR or build something specifically for this it wouldn't be a dorf.

Heavily disagree.

When your at full healing amp (207% on a dwarf), scrolls are hitting you for 400+ from bards, 500+ from artis. In ELoB you generally have several players scroll healing you at once.

More amp is imo inconsequential in proper scroll healing in this scenario. Deaths NEVER occur because the amount of healing wasn't enough. They occur because the frequency wasnt fast enough, something the slow 6s CD of scrolls wont help with, but a quicken heal will - of which my clr friends tend to hit my non-human tanks for i dunno, 800+...

More hp provides a bigger buffer for players to make mistakes and delay longer in throwing the scroll.

More amp can help more in cases where your not doing huge heals in the 400+ range sure, but proper scroll healing in an epic raid on a epicly geared tank - no.

Also the Chimeras fang is only an illusion of being good as we discussed, really it's not that great of a weapon versus the lord of blades. The +threat doesnt stack with most other sources as already discussed, so a human fang tank actaully has worse threat then a dwarf with a DA, or a Halforc with either. I've seen this in personal experiane too, the 100% geared human fang tanks can NEVER hold agro against my bbn going 100% dps. The Half-orc crafted Bsword guys can, tho barely.

Then consider the annoying fact you need an Arti to constantly hit you with adamantine weps to break DR.. (or planar if ur put adam)

And all that work, for a weapon that does a fair bit worse DPS then a +5 HBGCB Dwarven Axe.

Some quick barrage numbers to verify:
Base Dmg mod 60 - 62 for the DA (+2 dwarf axe dmg) 61 for the fang, +9 vs +10.
Fort 75% (Barrage doesnt support 80% yet, close enough)
HGBCB:
Final Averaged Swing
86.275 = 68.25(Weapon) + 18.025(Bonus)

Fang (+10 on a human ver):
Final Averaged Swing
81.683 = 73(Weapon) + 8.683(Bonus)

Dwarf - the master race. Has always been.

U14 Ultimate Tank btw:
Dwarf 20bbn/4ftr/1rog:
PrEs:
Occult Slayer (bbn tank pre), Dwarven Defender (dwarf racial pre)
Feats:
As this build + more hp + more dps + hamstring

[-Zyxas-]

Shade....
Do you spell maxed with 2 Xs on purpose because for some reason it seems awesome, or have you really never learned correctly?

However, the build DOES succeed as having a ridiculous amount of hit points. I agree that it's really good, and we all know you are amazing, but some parts just seem too braggy. The build should be able to speak for itself.

[Arshan]

When your at full healing amp (207% on a dwarf), scrolls are hitting you for 400+ from bards, 500+ from artis. In ELoB you generally have several players scroll healing you at once.



200% agreed on that, however, this requires some gear, that new players, or first lifers, may not be able to afford. I'm not speaking of hard things to get like Epic Marilith chain before U10, just that i know that affording the epic gloves of the claw isnt for everyone (i dont have that kind of issues), and may require some grind (this game is still about it after all =) ).

Human or half-elf are more friendly for first lifers than dorves, assuming these don't have some gear ready at 20. The reachable HP are still real decent (I guess 1,1 or 1,2k is pretty easily reachable) and not that co****l (just like in your dorf build actually).

Only point i see with more healing amp, is if you want to be capstone-healed by a favored soul. Not sure of how well it would work.

[Dartwick]

Shade....

.............................................but some parts just seem too braggy. The build should be able to speak for itself.

So you are new here?

[grodon9999]

Heavily disagree.

When your at full healing amp (207% on a dwarf), scrolls are hitting you for 400+ from bards, 500+ from artis. In ELoB you generally have several players scroll healing you at once.

But to get that it requires finger necklace and DT (right? correct me if wrong). Finger necklace means no Stalwart set which means a loss in action boosts and a loss of 15% threat. That 15% threat loss is noticeable and IMHO not an acceptable sacrifice. A tank must hold aggro over full retards, dropping threat gear isn't smart.

There are better armors than DT, to get that other 10% means sacrificing something else.

Our dorf-tanks that we use for ELoB have 30% (Claw) + 20% (ToD ring)+10% (ship buff) and it's okay, two guys scrolling gets the job done for the most part but more amp would make keeping us alive easier.

Now I've seen some ridiculous healing amp people (hit a guy for over 500 from a scroll cast by my ranger) from multiple pally PLs and stuff like that and that gets to the point of being excessive as it just leads to over-healing. But the extra 20-40% from human/helf which still wearing all the best in slot items is still worth it.



More amp is imo inconsequential in proper scroll healing in this scenario. Deaths NEVER occur because the amount of healing wasn't enough. They occur because the frequency wasnt fast enough, something the slow 6s CD of scrolls wont help with, but a quicken heal will - of which my clr friends tend to hit my non-human tanks for i dunno, 800+...

More hp provides a bigger buffer for players to make mistakes and delay longer in throwing the scroll.

30 HP. That's what you get going dorf over human/helf. And on a 1000 HP build you've got to be kidding me if you're claiming that's consequential.



More amp can help more in cases where your not doing huge heals in the 400+ range sure, but proper scroll healing in an epic raid on a epicly geared tank - no.

As mentioned above, you sacrifice a few best-in-slot items to get that healing amp on a dorf, a human/helf doesn't need to do that.



Also the Chimeras fang is only an illusion of being good as we discussed, really it's not that great of a weapon versus the lord of blades. The +threat doesnt stack with most other sources as already discussed, so a human fang tank actaully has worse threat then a dwarf with a DA, or a Halforc with either. I've seen this in personal experiane too, the 100% geared human fang tanks can NEVER hold agro against my bbn going 100% dps. The Half-orc crafted Bsword guys can, tho barely.

Then consider the annoying fact you need an Arti to constantly hit you with adamantine weps to break DR.. (or planar if ur put adam)

And all that work, for a weapon that does a fair bit worse DPS then a +5 HBGCB Dwarven Axe.

Some quick barrage numbers to verify:
Base Dmg mod 60 - 62 for the DA (+2 dwarf axe dmg) 61 for the fang, +9 vs +10.
Fort 75% (Barrage doesnt support 80% yet, close enough)
HGBCB:
Final Averaged Swing
86.275 = 68.25(Weapon) + 18.025(Bonus)

Fang (+10 on a human ver):
Final Averaged Swing
81.683 = 73(Weapon) + 8.683(Bonus)

You're probably right. But I'm sitting on 4 eFang scrolls right now so I have to hype it up so I can dump them on the market :)



Dwarf - the master race. Has always been.

At a lot of things, but not for your build. What a dorf brings to the table for this type of build isn't as strong as what human brings.

We can't let our love of certain toons/classes/races blind us to the realities of the game. I love my dorf stalwart defender and he's fantastic at what he does. But with the current realities of the game, in eLOB at least, he'd be better off as a human.



U14 Ultimate Tank btw:
Dwarf 20bbn/4ftr/1rog:
PrEs:
Occult Slayer (bbn tank pre), Dwarven Defender (dwarf racial pre)
Feats:
As this build + more hp + more dps + hamstring

LOLz, we'll see what the ENH pass makes possible.

[Astraghal]

Another thing I don't have to work with is Cannith crafted weapons. I find the sheer expense or having to gather the essences for crafters daunting. I'd just hate to double TR and gear out my Fighter, only to find that eClaw set + Stalwart Set + Epic Brawn's won't hold aggro using a LitII/MinII against eSoS/eClaw/eMarilith Barbarians. I haven't bothered getting HBSoGLOB/HBCIoGCO/HBAoGCB for the amount of time I spend on my Fighter now.

Edit - Does the DoS set bonus give anyone the extra threat, or just Paladins?

[grodon9999]

Edit - Does the DoS set bonus give anyone the extra threat, or just Paladins?

Anyone.

[-Zyxas-]

So you are new here?

Forums... there is a join date.
Thread... first post but I've been looking at this since it's been out.
--------------------

My point is it's harder to accept Shade and his work when he tries to make himself look even better, rather than giving us facts and neutral statements that can help us see what he's saying.

Ex: In race selection, "Top hitpoints, Top healing amp, exactly what a epic tank needs." Top healing amp is a blatant lie, Top hitpoints is true, but having a few more from the race when you already have tons doesn't help much, exactly what "a" epic tank needs is very opinionated and is telling people what to think rather than letting them make their (completely) own decision about the build (I'm not saying epic tanks don't need HP, but to those who are interested in epic tanking this should be obvious, and "the max" is not completely necessary, just "enough", whatever that number may be).

"True Neutral. It's the only correct choice for a tank."
Opinion. "It is the best alignment to choose as a tank if you want to mitigate incoming alignment damage to survive better" is a truth. "It is my opinion that it's the only correct choice for a tank" is also better, as it is not saying your way/opinion is the only way/opinion that is right. People can succeed and have fun without choosing the "best" choice - paladin tanks still work (sure, maybe not all situations), you don't need the "perfect" party, there can be alterations in gear choice...

[smithj_2020]

I dont know I think Top healing amp is a big thing to have for a tank...specially since its some many hps...

ok maybe not top healing amp but def more than enough to get buy, just incase say someone has to resort to a quick scroll heal.

[Shade]

Forums... there is a join date.
Thread... first post but I've been looking at this since it's been out.
--------------------

My point is it's harder to accept Shade and his work when he tries to make himself look even better, rather than giving us facts and neutral statements that can help us see what he's saying.

Ex: In race selection, "Top hitpoints, Top healing amp, exactly what a epic tank needs." Top healing amp is a blatant lie, Top hitpoints is true, but having a few more from the race when you already have tons doesn't help much, exactly what "a" epic tank needs is very opinionated and is telling people what to think rather than letting them make their (completely) own decision about the build (I'm not saying epic tanks don't need HP, but to those who are interested in epic tanking this should be obvious, and "the max" is not completely necessary, just "enough", whatever that number may be).

"True Neutral. It's the only correct choice for a tank."
Opinion. "It is the best alignment to choose as a tank if you want to mitigate incoming alignment damage to survive better" is a truth. "It is my opinion that it's the only correct choice for a tank" is also better, as it is not saying your way/opinion is the only way/opinion that is right. People can succeed and have fun without choosing the "best" choice - paladin tanks still work (sure, maybe not all situations), you don't need the "perfect" party, there can be alterations in gear choice...

You seem to be very against opinions.

I'm against writing "in my opinion" after every thing I write.

And also against robotic people who lack opinions.

Yea everything I write is my opinion ofcourse.

It's up the reader to decide if he wants to trust my opinion or not and use this build or a similar one. And far as that goes, I've had a couple ppl use this build and lvl there chars already past what my own is at heh, and they are enjoying it. Gota get around to finishing mine up.

I'm not gona dumb it down into some boring pile of numbers. I like to put some substance into my posts.
Check the wiki if you want neutrality, I try to remain mostly neutral there. My posts are gona be filled with my opinions weather you like it or not!

to the MAXXXX! :D

[Shade]

I dont know I think Top healing amp is a big thing to have for a tank...specially since its some many hps...

ok maybe not top healing amp but def more than enough to get buy, just incase say someone has to resort to a quick scroll heal.

Yea a tanks healing amp comes primarily from gear anyways. This build is set up well to use the ideal healing amp gear - thus the "top"

It's "top" in that other builds may for example sacrifice their neck slot as you said, for extra threat. Indeed a human build with a bit less dps/threat may need that, this one shouldn't.

Or an AC build may go for the top AC armor, while this build will just use any old DT armor, even a robe, long as it's got healing amp 10% on it. I'd actaully avoid fullplate to skip the ACP penalties.

Thats how it's "top".
It's not "ultimate". But it's up there.

PS: Could actally avoid losing your neck slot and still maintain max heal amp tho now:
Armor: Fleshapers brigadine (has fleshmaker)
Shield: VoD one (10% amp)
Ring1: 20% tod amp
Glove: claw 30% amp
+10% ship
= 207%

Do lose 5% mitigation droppin down to the heavy shield from tower.. But should be fine for most scenarios anyways.

[maddmatt70]

Yea a tanks healing amp comes primarily from gear anyways. This build is set up well to use the ideal healing amp gear - thus the "top"

It's "top" in that other builds may for example sacrifice their neck slot as you said, for extra threat. Indeed a human build with a bit less dps/threat may need that, this one shouldn't.

Or an AC build may go for the top AC armor, while this build will just use any old DT armor, even a robe, long as it's got healing amp 10% on it. I'd actaully avoid fullplate to skip the ACP penalties.

Thats how it's "top".
It's not "ultimate". But it's up there.

PS: Could actally avoid losing your neck slot and still maintain max heal amp tho now:
Armor: Fleshapers brigadine (has fleshmaker)
Shield: VoD one (10% amp)
Ring1: 20% tod amp
Glove: claw 30% amp
+10% ship
= 207%

Do lose 5% mitigation droppin down to the heavy shield from tower.. But should be fine for most scenarios anyways.

I have a dwarven stalwart defender and Human pally and the human pally is noticeable easier to heal in epic lob. There is also the circle of hatred now so even more hate options

[Faent]

I honestly don't see how this build beats a half-elf 18/2 FTR/MNK with pally-dilly. You get two intimidate timers. This is huge. You get up to +5 CHA to saves from pally-dilly. This beats dwarven saves. You get Balance as a class skill. You get 20% more healing amp from Human Improved Recovery II. You get Evasion. And you get more feats. You get more AC, if you want it.

Frankly, I'd seriously consider dropping Stalwart III and splashing more deeply for extra MNK heal amp. A deeper MNK splash would grant quite a bit beyond that. Or you could just role a human, and splash both PAL and MNK. This build looks like a quick way to get a reasonably competent epic tank, but it's not close to the best.

[Arshan]

I honestly don't see how this build beats a half-elf 18/2 FTR/MNK with pally-dilly. You get two intimidate timers

Having one, paly dilly brang my reflex saves to 75+ raid buffed... i'd rather take monk dilly for the 20% extra heal amp. As far as heal amp is not THAT useful when you reach so much, it's not that useless compared to a +5 to all saves when you already are sitting on insane saves.

The two intimidate timers are awesome, i can't deny it. Playing it, loving it.

But this is just in the *ultimate* point of view. If we are just after a lob tank, anything with more than 750 HP and a good DR and intimi can do it with some skills

[Astraghal]

We really need some named Dwarven Axes or race specific items to entice us into wanting to build Dwarven tanks. Something that grants an increased bonus to hate or HP when wielded by a Dwarf. Or a Dwarven Axe that does high base damage, has an inherently better critical profile, as well as extra goodies like 30% incite, Flametouched Iron, Metalline, Empty Red Slot, Empty Colorless Slot, Vampirism, 10% doublestrike etc.

[grodon9999]

PS: Could actally avoid losing your neck slot and still maintain max heal amp tho now:
Armor: Fleshapers brigadine (has fleshmaker)
Shield: VoD one (10% amp)
Ring1: 20% tod amp
Glove: claw 30% amp
+10% ship
= 207%

Do lose 5% mitigation droppin down to the heavy shield from tower.. But should be fine for most scenarios anyways.

That's not a bad idea, I'll look into that. But if that's medium armor there goes evasion which pays off a lot when you have a high (raid buffed) reflex save.

Though regarding the shield the only time I EVER need/use on is Epic LOB. but 10% amp is probably worth more than 5% damage mitigation. issue is I'm gonna need an LGA on my shield to get my Intim that high.

[-Zyxas-]

You seem to be very against opinions.

I'm against writing "in my opinion" after every thing I write.

And also against robotic people who lack opinions.

Yea everything I write is my opinion ofcourse.

It's up the reader to decide if he wants to trust my opinion or not and use this build or a similar one. And far as that goes, I've had a couple ppl use this build and lvl there chars already past what my own is at heh, and they are enjoying it. Gota get around to finishing mine up.

I'm not gona dumb it down into some boring pile of numbers. I like to put some substance into my posts.
Check the wiki if you want neutrality, I try to remain mostly neutral there. My posts are gona be filled with my opinions weather you like it or not!

to the MAXXXX! :D

Shade, I do enjoy what you do... but I do not agree when you try to lie. Opinions are opinions, which can influence some people or slide off others, but proposing that your scale of values is the truth is not true and not necessary - and perhaps rude when everything else you do is good. "I think having insane HP is very near the top of the goodness scale for a tank" is quite different from "Maxx hp is the only way if you want to tank".
I do not question the quality of the build, only your portrayal of it. I'm perfectly fine with you saying that it's good, or this or that is good because, but not "you have to" do certain things to make it work out, even though people still have the decision to make for themselves.
[I tried to type this clearly but you (general audience) may have to change around the order of some things for it to make sense.]

[Silvias]

no offense to shade but is this really needed lol.

Why not just myddo Darkmalice from Argo? .........or any one of the limitless ELOB tanks that exist? Just know that this build is only recquired for elob, u do not need a tank for MA at all........ SO you will be making a char for one quest in the entire game. Can it be used in other spots, yes of course it can. But not say in echrono, anyone with high evasion and decent dps is all thats needed for echrono. Hlob can b done with AC easily, and very, very easy if u got a bard in party.

Also u can tank elob on just about any char that can hit 800 hp with ease if u got intim/some DR and know how to read his attacks. Stun buff helps rookie tanks and also artis can infuse the tank if he is not kiting or if he got good hp to start. Also u can use Radiant Forcefield scrolls as much as you want, they have the same cooldown as other scrolls, just the casting timer is extra long.

I tank hlob with ease on a 12 dark monk 6 stalwart 2 rogue AC build 2nd life DROW that can do epic traps(lmao did it simply to show people they know nothing about the game when cry about drow, not a drow fanboy I just got all else done in game now im left to make what people perceive as gimp into uberness-yes final life is helf of course possibly dwarf or wf when they release the expansion with new enhances-new enhancement system is not 100% to be launched with the expansion). I do not need a bard to buff me, i have a friend cast adam weapons on cursespew of greater constuct bane flametouced wraps so I can use seal of earth and silver concord rings. If there is a bard I can use tod rings for extra dps(not needed really but why not get the 7 per hit)

[Silvias]

Ty for your time in making the post and trying to help people as much as possible...the build would certainly work, but certainly it is not the best tank BUT it will work for elob easily, not as hard as this guy is making it sound tho. That char Darkmalice has 1073 hp standing when he tanking he gets to over 1500 with double infusion or somewhere in the 1300s with one infusion. never seen him die or lose aggro, he has great amp for a WF he has 35 ac. His amp as wf is 150% and it is fine to be scroll healed with by arti or anyone with scroll line bumped up.

also you can myddo Limdur from argo he is a dwarven build, slightly diff than this guys build (a lot more flexible as well)

[Silvias]

wattaf just finished reading some of these posts...Ya he said it is for the hardest content in the game which recquires a tank...which would be only.....ELOB..........you guys talk about tanking vod and stuff are insane..I have solod vod with ease on Shadowkind so really no big deal there, sorcs fvs dotwiz --anything with ac and decent threat or intim or both can tank everything but ELOB. I can easily self heal on horoth hard..but alas I can not tank elob, my hp is only 680 without yugo or infusion( i dont need either for holob) ELOB tanking is about 5 things and that's it HP, DR, HAMP, INTIM (if got), being able to read his tells for beserk. That's it. I kind of give shade a hard time here reading my post in retrospect, was not my intention. This build would work great in ELOB, imo he is going a little overboard on what u need tho cause I have never had a tank with those HP and all that hamp but also never failed an Elob and i was in the 36 minute elob on my AA's barb past life amazon as junk dps/umder.

This is the only quest in the game that recquires a tank like this, AT THE MOMENT. But as you can tell there will never be an epic raid boss that can be ac tanked....ac tank makes quests a joke, ac is not able to overcome by mobs...So one can assume this build will have other uses when expansion hits hopefully. If not, you make a tank, collect all the spirits/shards/cells u need, build your isht then TR into what u wanna be........nothing wrong with a fighter past life for any melee or ranged in case you didn't know.

[Shade]

Thanks for the feedback Silvias.

And nah don't worry at all about "giving me a hard time".

I welcome that, Without critical feedback I'll never get the opportunity to better my build here, and that's always a very important part of what the feedback is for, so please, keep it coming.

And for the most part I agree, a tank build such as this is not one that tends to be the most fun or most useful in the majority of content, but mainly one that you really want in those very difficult raids like eLob or Elite ToD.

It's just a "too bad" fact of the game. Other mmos make tanks really fun by making nearly ALL content require a tank to complete period... DDO just doesn't do that, 99.9% of content is just plain more fun and a lot faster with zero typical mmo-tanking such as this build is mostly designed to offer.

I mean I've personally tanked eLob on a Barbarian, a class the developers seems fairly intent on not making a "primary tank" class per say... But it's still quite reasonably doable, It's just the nature of the game.

One can only hope the upcoming new difficulty settings and new raid will be set up in such a way to again encourage such a very defensive build to be required, or at least very useful.

[Faent]

OMG. Shade sighting!

[PurpleTimb]

Pardon the necro.

Been looking for a dwarven melee build to TR my first life barbarian into. I'm curious how well this build holds up to the changes in U14. Is there use for a true tank in the new quests and raids?

[smithj_2020]

Pardon the necro.

Been looking for a dwarven melee build to TR my first life barbarian into. I'm curious how well this build holds up to the changes in U14. Is there use for a true tank in the new quests and raids?

Yes actually there is, I have this build tweeked a little different, has very good healing amp and a pretty good ac over a 100 in CE mode, and I have found with my intim + ac + healing amp + loads of hps I keep aggro off all of my party in the new quests I really dont take an overwhelming amount of damage and no one else gets hurt.

Boss fights I do get hit pretty good but its easy to keep me up and going, so yes its worth it to have a tank....



ps. not sure of new raid have not done yet.

[Shade]

Yea this is still an awesome build.

After I logged him in after the update (finally got him capped) he had around 100 PRR, and 120 AC.. And I haven't even finished putting together his epic gear yet.

Stalwarts are extremely durable after the update, more so then ever in fact.

While a stalwarts not really required for epic elite questing (tanked every boss on my tank-barbarian, though it was not easy), it certainly would help a ton. Those bosses can hit VERY hard.

And for it's kind of primary purpose as a raid-tank, it's still unmatched.

Still does not make sense to BUILD for armor class. As you will get a ton of it just from wearing a good set of armor now in U14, and the few xtra points you can squeze out by spending extra enhancements/gear slots/etc are not going to have much impact.

Ultimately the only major difference is you should try to wear a high AC set of heavy armor, and tower shield now, where before even a robe was fine. Maybe consider a prot +6 item at the most aside from armor/shield, but dont sacrifice other important stats to do it, its also on some of the better armor sets anyways, or a cleric can toss you a shield of faith.

Max your PRR, max your hitpoints, get your saves to a decent point, get SF pots, get healing amp gear and your essentially invincible on this build.

Rough estimation of lvl25 endgame mostly geared stats on this build in sentinel raid mode:
~160 PRR
~1800 HP
~120 AC
~Fort save in the 60+ range (buffed)
Will and reflex in the 40+ range (buffed)

Plus sword and board DPS is higher on the charts then ever due to some changes:
-Shield mastery and improved now gives some double strike
-Cleaves now deal more damage, and activate faster on sword and board then any other style
-Shields were not subject to the [w] weapon nerf, thus benefit greatly from certain +W effects

Far as what to do at lvl21-25 on this:
21 - Cleave (Required for some of the nice stuff in Dreadnaught)
24 - Epic Toughness
I'd probably also swap some weapon specialization for Greatcleave too if your questing a lot lvling this up to speed up DPS. Could change it back once re-capped and mainly raiding.

Epic Destiny:
Probably go Dreadnaught - Grandmaster - Sentinel. Sentinel for raid tanking, Dreadnaught for general questing, as even epic elites your defense would be more then enough without sentinel.

I'll have a more complete update on the build in the coming weeks/months. No guarentees on time as I got a lot of requests for updates to my bbn builds too im working on.

[MagicalDad]

Given the giant HP pool from Sentinel + Epic Toughness, would it make more sense to drop a toughness (or two) to grab Cleave and Improved Sunder early? W/ multiple Dwarven Tactics + twisting Dreadnought DC boosts + Spare Hand should be able to sunder just about anything ..


Yea this is still an awesome build.
Rough estimation of lvl25 endgame mostly geared stats on this build in sentinel raid mode:
~160 PRR
~1800 HP
~120 AC
~Fort save in the 60+ range (buffed)
Will and reflex in the 40+ range (buffed)

Plus sword and board DPS is higher on the charts then ever due to some changes:
-Shield mastery and improved now gives some double strike
-Cleaves now deal more damage, and activate faster on sword and board then any other style
-Shields were not subject to the [w] weapon nerf, thus benefit greatly from certain +W effects

Far as what to do at lvl21-25 on this:
21 - Cleave (Required for some of the nice stuff in Dreadnaught)
24 - Epic Toughness
I'd probably also swap some weapon specialization for Greatcleave too if your questing a lot lvling this up to speed up DPS. Could change it back once re-capped and mainly raiding.

Epic Destiny:
Probably go Dreadnaught - Grandmaster - Sentinel. Sentinel for raid tanking, Dreadnaught for general questing, as even epic elites your defense would be more then enough without sentinel.

I'll have a more complete update on the build in the coming weeks/months. No guarentees on time as I got a lot of requests for updates to my bbn builds too im working on.

[Shade]

Given the giant HP pool from Sentinel + Epic Toughness, would it make more sense to drop a toughness (or two) to grab Cleave and Improved Sunder early? W/ multiple Dwarven Tactics + twisting Dreadnought DC boosts + Spare Hand should be able to sunder just about anything ..

Yea it would..

Personally I have way too many toughnesses, jus cuz I want a screenshot at 2000 hp as just some silly arbitrary goal of mine heh.

Id eventaully drop some for more dps/threat.. Thats my main issue atm. Thinking shield bash and cleave+greatcleave tho, let the dps'es do teh sunders, as this builds str/sunder dc kinda pales in comparison to a real tactics build.

Anyways Tankaxer is still in progress.. He's changed a lot from the initial build. I'll have build update evntually, just want to get him more finalized.. Stay tuned.

Here's a fun screenshot of him in action for the mean time:
lvl2 bbn/rogue? ToD Elite tanking (http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3638/tankaxertodelite.jpg)

[Lighti]

Interesting that your still saying its not worth buidling for AC but then in your screenshot your using CE and hitting Armour Class Boost. Give in, admit your wrong and say AC is worth it.

[PurpleTimb]

If you can build a character for DPS and still achieve an AC of 123, why would you 'build for AC?'. Do you really think a 140 AC is going to be a huge improvement?

[Shade]

Interesting that your still saying its not worth buidling for AC but then in your screenshot your using CE and hitting Armour Class Boost. Give in, admit your wrong and say AC is worth it.

I am not wrong.

I have NOT built at all for armor class.

It's pretty simple stuff:
-Combat expertwise is required for improved trip. Improved trip is an awesome feat. Had it not been, I'd not have it. I do not use it 99% the time (I use power attack). It was just for the silly screenshot purposes while shieldblocking waiting on the suulo kill.
-Armor class boost, as you can see in the shot, isn't at it maximum rank. Its rank 3 - the minimum required to get Stalwart III. I actually use it all the time after my haste boots run out .. Not because it makes any noticable different to the damage I take, but because I increase the damage I deal (Was in dreadnaught as you can see.. Combat Brute: +1W while any action boost is active - also meant to be +50% helpless dmg, tho that part is currently bugged.)

And I did not say "Ac is not worth it". I said its not worth it to build for it. I still firmly believe that. I just recommend wearing decent AC armor and a tower. Thought even on that front, id give up some points for better enchantments. EG: I'd use the slightly lesser AC Cormarian Redplate over a set of 30AC planeforged plate, as its enchantments are quite good.


If you can build a character for DPS and still achieve an AC of 123, why would you 'build for AC?'. Do you really think a 140 AC is going to be a huge improvement?
Exactly. Wasting additional action points on what will amount to - at the most - 5% potential random chance of less damage? Very poor build choice when it could go towards far more critical areas such as:
DPS/Threat - which can make all the difference. A tank without enough threat to hold agro isnt a very good tank.
HP - HP unlike AC, ALWAYS works. Against everything.
Saves - 1 point in saves is still 5% better. 1 point in AC? does nothing. You generally need another 10-15 points of AC to have any effect now in serious elite content, due to the rounding to the d20.

Given they took out all the feats that add to AC aside from combat exp.. They at least preventing players from falling for that.. Was a pretty bad trap before.

Course now many are falling for the "i can get +3%! dodge" trap feats now. Imo they are equally as worthless as they were pre patch.

Hallmarks of a great tank:
1. Strong reliable defense:
-- First and foremost thats always going to be hitpoints. A close second: PRR. Third: Saves. AC and Dodge: Like I said, get what you can without sacrificing other areas. As I've shown an armor class well over 100 is quite possible with zero build points towards it, and thus zero item sacrifice aside from dedicating my armor and shield slot to it.
2. Enough threat to keep the boss where he needs to be.
3. Skill and game knowledge.

These are the three most important things about being a skilled and respected tank.

Worrying about having some high number on your character sheet?
Not a great strategy.

PS: At that ~100-128 AC, Horoth still hit me over 70% of the time. The "73% chance thing, only applies to heroic normal difficulty, versus trash monsters"

[Lighti]

Your not even built for DPS though, your built for hp. You dont have Cleave and Great Cleave on your bars which means you dont have Overwhelming Critical aswell as the rest of the things you didnt takein your build break down.

I agree its not worth maxing out AC anymore ect. But putting simple things such as Protection, Natural Armour, Parrying ect do help.

The best way to build a tank now is go max DPS, by max i mean max, every ability and item you can find that ups your damage. Then shove in any AC and PRR stuff you can find and fit. Hp come easy enough by accident, its just common sense to take a few toughness enhancments and put on GS hp ect.

[Ape_Man]

Stuff . . .

Shade is 100% right about everything he said above.

And this is exactly what's dumb about the new AC/Defense system.

[Shade]

Tankaxer complete:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8332/2402hp.jpg

Build update coming soon :)

[Captain_Wizbang]

Nice.

[Shade]

Your not even built for DPS though, your built for hp. You dont have Cleave and Great Cleave on your bars which means you dont have Overwhelming Critical

It's pretty foolish to make such inane assumptions. I do have both cleave feats. It's actaully possible to take a feat at level24 and the screenshot was pre 24.

I also don't take broken feats which do nothing like you do. It's really bad advice to call me out on something you don't really know about. Overwhelming critical doesn't even work.

It's also boring to make exact like characters for every class. Being I already have a max dps barbarian tank (and guide ..) that has tanked evey raid in the game I think I have the whole DPS-Tank thing well under control, so having a defense-tank in my arsenal for runs where we want to go slower and save some resources certainly isn't a bad strategy. I do run my ultra high dps thf tank most of the time, but swapping into the sword and board ultra defense tank here and there is a nice change of pace.

It's too bad the build lost a lot of purpose given how badly they messed up the LoB loot tables. But theres also the future. There could be another ultra-difficult to tank raid with desireable loot looming, so tankaxer may yet have a solid purpose.

For now, he'll serve well in my upcoming EE LoB run, even if its only for fun.

[Skavenaps]

Tankaxer complete:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8332/2402hp.jpg

Build update coming soon :)

yep funny screenshoot, that image shows nothing but char buffed by bards song, arti's +hp spell bla bla.

[Shade]

yep funny screenshoot, that image shows nothing but char buffed by bards song, arti's +hp spell bla bla.

Bard songs don't increase defender hp/str, as they don't stack with stance sadly.

There was no artificer used in the making of this screenshot. Though an arti scroll was used.

I disagree it shows nothing. It shows some crazy potential of this build + several maxxed destinies.

The pic is obviously just for fun to display my maximum potential, and not at all sustainable.. More realistic, sustainable raid-buffed stats:
-1800 hp
-123-163 prr (depends if I go combat expertise + unbreakable which i rarely do, usually power attack + vigor. tho unbreakable makes sense in some cases)
-Bout same saves as seen in ss minus 2-3

[Skavenaps]

Bard songs don't increase defender hp/str, as they don't stack with stance sadly.

i know, but as u mentioned, pretty sure it was used to buff will save, wich seems low in my opinion.

[Shade]

i know, but as u mentioned, pretty sure it was used to buff will save, wich seems low in my opinion.

It was not. Except maybe the +will saves vs fear from courage, which doesnt display in the character sheet. Think they only way for a bard to buff those directly is with fatesinger stuff, which we didnt use.

And a very high will save is not that important to a tank imo. 99% of will saves in the game you can become immune to via the correct buff. Aside from that, hitting a functional score for hard content like EE, is essentially impossible for this build. That and I can't think of a single relevant one in current content anyways. Common ones are greater command, fear and hold monster, all of which you can immune to with the correct buff.

If its a weird special willsave-heavy content, well thats what paladins are for, ill bring one along =) They deserve a spot in my grps if only for 1 outa 1000 quests heh.

Reflex and fort are important, and as you can see I have reasonable scores in those.

[Nephilia]

I'm really impressed by your SS.
How could u hit so much cos and dex? O____O

Did u rebuild your gear set-up a bit to fit something new whit all the new goodies in eveningstar? :)

[SealedInSong]

Tankaxer complete:
[image]

Build update coming soon :)

Even not sustainable, those are wonderful numbers.

Highly anticipating your post-MoTU update gear selection and destiny twists, etc.

Have you ever made an eChimera's Fang build before, Shade? I'd also be interested in your thoughts on those.

[Dulvalius]

Tankaxer complete:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8332/2402hp.jpg

Build update coming soon :)

No thanks...

We dont need a gimp build. Your fort is horrid, ac is **** as well. Looks like you sacrificed your stats to show off 2400hps.

My dwrf 18/2 fighter/monk build on argon server has 2250 hps, 160 ac, with 209 prr, and 234% fort. All my resists are around where your screenshot is. My str is a little gimped at 39, but all stats above are with just ship buffs.

Now you can insert <build coming soon>

[JOTMON]

No thanks...

We dont need a gimp build. Your fort is horrid, ac is **** as well. Looks like you sacrificed your stats to show off 2400hps.

My dwrf 18/2 fighter/monk build on argon server has 2250 hps, 160 ac, with 209 prr, and 234% fort. All my resists are around where your screenshot is. My str is a little gimped at 39, but all stats above are with just ship buffs.

Now you can insert <build coming soon>

you realize you just hijacked a 3 year old thread with your arrogant insulting post.
besides..HP was the point of this thread way back then. hence the title..

Comparing your current build is completely irrelevant considering everything previously posted here is at least 2 years out of date..

At the time this was posted you were asking questions like...


Unyeilding sentinel ED stance question.
Does the stance stack with stalwarts defender? Or should I ask can they both be active at the same time?