Move Silently used while not sneaking?

[charmor]

Simple question:
Is the Move Silently skill used when you're not sneaking?

For example, lets say I cast Invisibility and then bypass a mob. I believe the mob will not be able to see me, since I'm invisible, but he can still listen. In this case, will the mob roll against my Move Silently, even if I'm not sneaking?

(Lets say I'm particularly interested in how this works since I'm having a hard time with my Wizard trying to pacify the scorpions in the quest The Claw of Vulkoor (I can manage to bypass a few, but not all), and I would like to master the art of invisibility running on my Wizard.

[Syllph]

Move silently is used any time the mobs can "hear" the hot feet around you. So in the case of running while invis, no

[FrozenNova]

No - invisiblity does consider you 'sneaked', but nonetheless does not apply the 'move silently' modifier.
Listen is what prompts an enemy to investigate an area - they very rarely immediately go for the throat because they can hear you.
If you just run past, unless you collide with them, they should not follow.

[dkyle]

You must sneak to have any benefits from Hide and Move Silently. They do nothing when you're just running around. However, a lot of enemies don't notice even if you run by invisible. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but as long as you don't get too close, they'll tend to ignore you. I don't think this works on the Scorps in Vulkoor, though.

[Chauncey1]

I have never been able to get past the scorps in that quest.
Granted, I'm not the best rogue, but I tried...many times, had to kill everything. I know of only one person that ever got past them, and she's not been online in about a month.

[Gkar]

I have never been able to get past the scorps in that quest.
Granted, I'm not the best rogue, but I tried...many times, had to kill everything. I know of only one person that ever got past them, and she's not been online in about a month.

Scorps have tremor sense, you can't fool em.

[Mercureal]

Monsters have a definite listen range, and if you're invisible outside that range you can walk by them just fine. You might want to play around in a lower level quest or wilderness area to get a sense of the range.

However, it will be difficult to get through the quest with the stealth bonus if you have no MS skill, as there are narrow areas where it is difficult to pass by without being heard. On normal, you need somewhere between 15 and 25 MS skill to get by everything (that's the nearest I can gauge, based on characters that failed and succeeded). You have options to temporarily boost your MS skill though (Cat's Grace, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Voice of the Master) and MS gear on the auction house tends to be fairly cheap.



Edited to add: spiders have tremor sense, but scorpions don't, you can sneak past them just fine if your skill is high enough

[charmor]

I'm not sure exactly how that works, but as long as you don't get too close, they'll tend to ignore you. I don't think this works on the Scorps in Vulkoor, though.

I think that's the problem I'm having in that quest. As soon as I approach a scorpion, even invisible, the drow in my backpack says "you were spotted and will have to kill the scorpion". Maybe tremor sense really.

But also, Mr.Cow did the quest flawlessly with only invisibility.

Here's the link if someone want to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLoAyOgqSg4


PS: Of course, Mr.Cow is a robot, so I don't bother too much..

[dkyle]

PS: Of course, Mr.Cow is a robot, so I don't bother too much..

Very true.

I think the key to his approach is that you only generate noise while your feet are on the ground. He jumps past scorpions whenever they are close.

[charmor]

I think the key to his approach is that you only generate noise while your feet are on the ground. He jumps past scorpions whenever they are close.

That's possible. But if this is true, then the DDO system is amazing in relation to sneaking and mob awareness.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My stealthy chars can run through the Vale Invised with barely a look from monsters I pass....yet my armored cleric will have teleporting Orthons attacking her the entire way....

So ...something is going on IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

From reading a few more posts, I should point out that monsters have an auto-detect zone about three feat in front of their noses.

This is why people cannot sneak up to the last couple Guardians without being detected.

You have to find away to get to the platform, without entering their auto-detect zone.

[MaximusParthas]

I have never been able to get past the scorps in that quest.
Granted, I'm not the best rogue, but I tried...many times, had to kill everything. I know of only one person that ever got past them, and she's not been online in about a month.

I've solo'd it on epic. no hire, no help. just my rogue.
here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337058)

[Chauncey1]

I've solo'd it on epic. no hire, no help. just my rogue.
here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337058)

When I tried to do it, I was only lvl 10 or so, and as I said before, I suck at being a rogue.
I bow to your awesomeness though. That is pretty bad@$$.

[MaximusParthas]

ty

[charmor]

From reading a few more posts, I should point out that monsters have an auto-detect zone about three feat in front of their noses.

This is why people cannot sneak up to the last couple Guardians without being detected.

You have to find away to get to the platform, without entering their auto-detect zone.

Yep.

I just watched another video from a sorcerer, and the trick seems to be keep moving without ever entering the auto-defect zone of the scorpions. Make them move by listening to your footsteps, then jump around to the platform.

[kinar]

...the DDO system is amazing in relation to sneaking and mob awareness.
This is true all by itself.
Try just shooting a arrow (or throwing something) at the floor near a mob that can't see you sometime and watch what happens (not specifically in claw).

When I first started playing DDO (oh so many years ago) I was at first let down by the agro management when initially encountering mobs (I came from WoW where I had mastered the art of pulling). However, after I found out how intricate and delicate the system is here, I was amazed and inspired. Unfortunately, it is rarely required or even beneficial to understand these mechanics in DDO.

[FrozenNova]

My stealthy chars can run through the Vale Invised with barely a look from monsters I pass....yet my armored cleric will have teleporting Orthons attacking her the entire way....

So ...something is going on IMO.

Invis is a +20 to hide. Your cleric can be spotted even with +20 hide. Your sneaker cannot.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is true all by itself.
Try just shooting a arrow (or throwing something) at the floor near a mob that can't see you sometime and watch what happens (not specifically in claw).

When I first started playing DDO (oh so many years ago) I was at first let down by the agro management when initially encountering mobs (I came from WoW where I had mastered the art of pulling). However, after I found out how intricate and delicate the system is here, I was amazed and inspired. Unfortunately, it is rarely required or even beneficial to understand these mechanics in DDO.

I think it is beneficial to understand how things work in DDO.

But some of the ways it is beneficial are hard to explain.


When I watched Ghoste's videos, and got inspired with stealth, I really started paying attention to how a whole lot of things worked in the game.

From Ghoste, I then became aware of MrCow and his super scientific experiments in DDO. ;) Other people too, but those two really gave me a lot of insight into how things work in the game.

From stealth I started to understand how agro worked. And how spells worked..especially when related to agro.

Started playing an Assassin and learned a lot of tricks there too.

The more I learn about one part of the game, the more I see ways to apply that knowledge to another part.

I no longer see one part, like stealth, as being seperate from other tactics. I see them as highely related.

I combine things I have learned from various parts of the game. And in some cases, have committed them to motor-memory. Or at least they have become a standard tactic of mine.

the more you know, the more you find ways to use what you know.

This game really is pretty cool. The attention to detail is very good.
Sometimes they change something because of how players have used certain knowlege, but I can usually find a way to use my knowledge of the new change to some advantage too.

[parowan]

From reading a few more posts, I should point out that monsters have an auto-detect zone about three feat in front of their noses.

This is why people cannot sneak up to the last couple Guardians without being detected.

You have to find away to get to the platform, without entering their auto-detect zone.

The common methods are to hit the wall or floor with a throwing weapon and go to the platform while the scorp investigates the noise. Or use a noisemaker, which doesn't require you to go out of sneak mode.

Krimsonrane has indeed soloed epic claw - something I aspire to but unfortunately I'm not tough enough to solo the named giant. Maybe if I had two dozen epic big tops to keep him dancing.

As for the rest, sneaking past the scorps isn't too hard once you know how - it just takes practice and patience.

Back to the OP, the hide and move silently skills are only engaged when a player is in sneak mode. Outside of sneak mode those scores aren't even checked. Monsters just have a really limited hearing range, and hearing something doesn't actually engage their aggro, just their curiosity. This is why running past them when invisible is possible.

[MyHumps]

Just curious, I just tested it and it I don't see my hide skill improve whatsoever when I give myself invisibility.

[Philibusta]

I have never been able to get past the scorps in that quest.
Granted, I'm not the best rogue, but I tried...many times, had to kill everything. I know of only one person that ever got past them, and she's not been online in about a month.

I recently soloed Claw with my rogue 10...came *this* close to getting the stealth bonus.

The only reason I didn't get it was cause the very last Guardian scorp was literally sitting right on top of the hexagon thing where you have to put the staff. Talk about ticked off..well not really. I didnt rage quit or anything, but it was like.."Well ain't that about a beeotch!"

[charmor]

Just curious, I just tested it and it I don't see my hide skill improve whatsoever when I give myself invisibility.

I'm curious too.

Some people say invisibility gives you +20 hide. Others say it instead makes you into some sort of automatic sneak mode with a score of 20.

I'll go with the second, since invisibility really makes you auto-hide without sneaking. And if this is true, then this means your hide skill simply does not matter when you're invisible, unless of course you're actively sneaking and your skill is higher than 20. In other words, invisibility seems to be useless for someone who is actively sneaking and has a 20+ hide skill, but in the other hand allows you to hide with average success (score 20) without the need to sneak.

[Mercureal]

I recently soloed Claw with my rogue 10...came *this* close to getting the stealth bonus.

The only reason I didn't get it was cause the very last Guardian scorp was literally sitting right on top of the hexagon thing where you have to put the staff. Talk about ticked off..well not really. I didnt rage quit or anything, but it was like.."Well ain't that about a beeotch!"

The trick I use is Invisibility mixed with sneaking:

- go invisible just before you get to the last guardian
- move up to him, run backwards when he hears you and you see him start to move
- go into sneak mode, keep moving back and away from the guardian
- move forward in sneak mode, in a wide circle around the guardian, move towards the octagon
- you're done!

[wgperi]

... Ive maxxed move silently once, and my perspective is, somehow even while running, mobs used to take much more time to realize me approaching than any other classes Ive played(without MS at all). This considering running solo and/or alone in the room... same quests, without any threat reduction.

[parowan]

I recently soloed Claw with my rogue 10...came *this* close to getting the stealth bonus.

The only reason I didn't get it was cause the very last Guardian scorp was literally sitting right on top of the hexagon thing where you have to put the staff. Talk about ticked off..well not really. I didnt rage quit or anything, but it was like.."Well ain't that about a beeotch!"

Noisemakers are min.lvl.2, very cheap to make, and the most surefire way to get a mob to move to a different position without noticing you. Too lazy to make them? Stand around the corner and hit the wall a few paces to the left of this last guardian. Then immediately go back into sneak/invisible. Guardian inspects noise, you go hit the pedestal.

[MaximusParthas]

The common methods are to hit the wall or floor with a throwing weapon and go to the platform while the scorp investigates the noise. Or use a noisemaker, which doesn't require you to go out of sneak mode.

Krimsonrane has indeed soloed epic claw - something I aspire to but unfortunately I'm not tough enough to solo the named giant. Maybe if I had two dozen epic big tops to keep him dancing.

As for the rest, sneaking past the scorps isn't too hard once you know how - it just takes practice and patience.

Back to the OP, the hide and move silently skills are only engaged when a player is in sneak mode. Outside of sneak mode those scores aren't even checked. Monsters just have a really limited hearing range, and hearing something doesn't actually engage their aggro, just their curiosity. This is why running past them when invisible is possible.

lol the big tops are too short for that job. my tactic was a constant sleet storm while using delvers boots and a whole ****load of heal/restoration scrolls. took a while but it worked. The epic maul from the new event seemed to stun sometimes but i found my chimeras fangs did way more damage. Plus i could stun him myself periodically. Another method is mind fog with decent paralyzers.

[Arel]

I think my warforged wiz has a built-in, hypersonic ping that activates whenever I cast Invisibility, because even when I go fairly wide around a mob and/or leap over their heads, they ALWAYS detect me, then find me (even though I've moved away by this point), and I start getting hit by arrows... WHILE STILL INVISIBLE! UNERRINGLY! GAH!

*grumblegrumble*

I think arrows might be magnetically attracted to me as well, but that's a different matter. Sort of.

[MrCow]

Just curious, I just tested it and it I don't see my hide skill improve whatsoever when I give myself invisibility.

The situational +20 bonus to hide does not show in the skill section of the character sheet because it doesn't directly add to your hide score at all times. Instead, it grants the situation +20 bonus against creatures that can not see invisible targets while you are sneaking.

Camouflage, however, will show its +10 bonus to hide because that bonus applies in all situations.

Although, after Module 9 when invisibility no longer allowed monsters to make spot checks on you (if they couldn't see invisibility) the bonus to hide granted by invisibility became obsolete, as they can't make a spot check against your hide score.

[Philibusta]

I think my warforged wiz has a built-in, hypersonic ping that activates whenever I cast Invisibility, because even when I go fairly wide around a mob and/or leap over their heads, they ALWAYS detect me, then find me (even though I've moved away by this point), and I start getting hit by arrows... WHILE STILL INVISIBLE! UNERRINGLY! GAH!

*grumblegrumble*

I think arrows might be magnetically attracted to me as well, but that's a different matter. Sort of.

It's not a hypersonic ping. They can hear your robot's gears whirring and its hard drive spinning. :D

[MyHumps]

The situational +20 bonus to hide does not show in the skill section of the character sheet because it doesn't directly add to your hide score at all times. Instead, it grants the situation +20 bonus against creatures that can not see invisible targets while you are sneaking.

Camouflage, however, will show its +10 bonus to hide because that bonus applies in all situations.

Although, after Module 9 when invisibility no longer allowed monsters to make spot checks on you (if they couldn't see invisibility) the bonus to hide granted by invisibility became obsolete, as they can't make a spot check against your hide score.

Neat, I got a MrCow response. Thanks for the info.