Cannith Crafting is NOT Fun. (A Silght Rant)

[Fejj]

I tried to keep it short and sweet ....

For those who hate rants - TL;DR - Crafting is not fun, please change it.

For anyone board at work ....
Cannith crafting is so poorly thought up, I really don't know what to say. Since removing the whole system is not an option, how about fixing it up a bit.

Your crafting XP should be BTA not BTC. Seriously. Its just not fun to have to continually swap back and forth to make items for your lowbies.

Passing all your loot to your crafting character is not fun. Wasting so much time on inventory management is just ridiculous.

Not being able to "build" on items is the worst decision in the history of crafting. I mean really, the option was in the game, people liked it, it was in NO WAY overpowering ... and you take to away.

Not being able to sort the list in the alter is really a failure in design.
Sort by Prefix - NO
Sort by Suffix - NO
Sort by (+) to enchantment - NO
Sort by ML - NO
Sort by Item slot - NO
Would it be that hard to make the system easy to use?!?!?!
As it stands now, the ONLY way to make an item without prior knowledge, or wasting lots of time reading all the descriptions is to use outside resources to filter your options better, then go to the alter and try to figure it out.

Not knowing what the shard will do to the ML of the item at the time I make the shard. Now, I go to shard alter, find a shard I want to add, go to creation alter, check to see what will happen to the ML if added. Then go back to the shard alter, make the shard. Put it in the bank. Log on other toon, get shard, add to item.

Making 1000's of useless shards for leveling is not fun. Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click ..... Click ...... Click ...... Click .......WAAAAHHHOOOO!!!!!

The LAG in the crafting hall is a joke, and not fun. You click on a device, sit for 4 min, and wait for the list to load. (would be great if I still partook in certain activities ... but alas i don't)

Now, no one forces me to use the system, but the benefits are outstanding. I just hate my time in the game while doing it.

This post turned out real negative, but that's just how I get thinking about cannith crafting. Sorry about that.

The overwhelming majority of people I play with feel similarly. Its not fun, so they don't do it.

To anyone who cares, make it better. Make it fun. Help me hate my time less while gaining crafting levels.

Thanks for your time

[firepowwer]

I totally agree with everything you posted. Its not fun at all, and is a big pain in the ass.

The crafting in the Crystal Cove and Mabar event were really fun and addicting in a good way. I wish the current system for crafting could be altered in a way that makes it more enjoyable and less irritating.

[mobrien316]

I am also not a big fan of crafting. I keep hoping it will get better as I go up in levels.

My TR'd wizard is my crafter and he is currently around level 50 in all three.

So far I have made him a couple of spell penetration IV items and some magnetism and combustion items (all for third level spells or less.)

That's about it. Everying I can craft at level 50 is stuff that I can find in chests or buy on the Auction House. All that time I spent crafting, along with the lost revenue from crunching items instead of selling them, and I have not yet crafted a single item that was any better than stuff I could easily find myself.

[morticianjohn]

I enjoy the crafting that is tied into gameplay. For example most of your time spent crafting epic items is spent questing. Same with shroud crafting, DT armor crafting and others. In otherwords I agree with you OP. I feel pigeonholed into this crafting system because of the major benefits bunt it takes away from the most important part of the game (questing)

[FastTaco]

Agreed!

If your still crafting though I would suggest not moving EVERY item to your crafter... just deconstruct on whatever toon your playing then send the essences to your crafter at your convenience, you don't get alot of XP from deconstruction anyway.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I tried to keep it short and sweet ....

For those who hate rants - TL;DR - Crafting is not fun, please change it.

For anyone board at work ....
Cannith crafting is so poorly thought up, I really don't know what to say. Since removing the whole system is not an option, how about fixing it up a bit.

Your crafting XP should be BTA not BTC. Seriously. Its just not fun to have to continually swap back and forth to make items for your lowbies.

Passing all your loot to your crafting character is not fun. Wasting so much time on inventory management is just ridiculous.

Not being able to "build" on items is the worst decision in the history of crafting. I mean really, the option was in the game, people liked it, it was in NO WAY overpowering ... and you take to away.

Not being able to sort the list in the alter is really a failure in design.
Sort by Prefix - NO
Sort by Suffix - NO
Sort by (+) to enchantment - NO
Sort by ML - NO
Sort by Item slot - NO
Would it be that hard to make the system easy to use?!?!?!
As it stands now, the ONLY way to make an item without prior knowledge, or wasting lots of time reading all the descriptions is to use outside resources to filter your options better, then go to the alter and try to figure it out.

Not knowing what the shard will do to the ML of the item at the time I make the shard. Now, I go to shard alter, find a shard I want to add, go to creation alter, check to see what will happen to the ML if added. Then go back to the shard alter, make the shard. Put it in the bank. Log on other toon, get shard, add to item.

Making 1000's of useless shards for leveling is not fun. Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click ..... Click ...... Click ...... Click .......WAAAAHHHOOOO!!!!!

The LAG in the crafting hall is a joke, and not fun. You click on a device, sit for 4 min, and wait for the list to load. (would be great if I still partook in certain activities ... but alas i don't)

Now, no one forces me to use the system, but the benefits are outstanding. I just hate my time in the game while doing it.

This post turned out real negative, but that's just how I get thinking about cannith crafting. Sorry about that.

The overwhelming majority of people I play with feel similarly. Its not fun, so they don't do it.

To anyone who cares, make it better. Make it fun. Help me hate my time less while gaining crafting levels.

Thanks for your time

Agreed. I honestly don't know what is the point of crafting if you cannot really get anything significantly better than you can loot straight from a chest. The whole idea of crafting is to, at high crafting levels, be able to craft things that you cannot find elsewhere, be it special heal potions, 1 minute haste pots/clickes, deconstruct Green Steel and so forth. But right now even at highest levels you can only craft things that are marginally better than random loot -- and it takes a whole lot of time to get to the 130's+ -- so there really is no point, currently. I say either improve the rewards of the crafting grind at lvls 125+ or just abandon it and let only the completionists bother.

[Cyr]

Agreed OP. I've done some of the crafting grind, but I certainly did not enjoy it. I think the whole system is pretty badly done.

[Memnir]

I very much agree that it's not fun. At all. I'd much rather be questing then standing in the Crafting Hall feeding the slots.


But... after doing some earnest crafting over the last two weeks, I have to say that for what it is - DDO's crafting is good at what it does. It allows for a sensible progression of ability that feels right to me even if it doesn't feel fun.

I'm not a total convert. I still hate it, even if I am putting up with it. I would love to see, as you would, a way to better sort the lists. The need to make/recycle shards in order to level is the very definition of a gerbil wheel, in my opinion.

I am not a fan of it - but I'd be hard pressed to find a way to make it fun. I see it as a total sink... plat-sink, points-sink, time-sink, fun-sink. And yet, I am trying to make it work. Not sure how much longer I'll keep up the pretense - but for now, I'll run on the gerbil wheel and see how far it takes me.

[Ague]

That's about it. Everying I can craft at level 50 is stuff that I can find in chests or buy on the Auction House. All that time I spent crafting, along with the lost revenue from crunching items instead of selling them, and I have not yet crafted a single item that was any better than stuff I could easily find myself.

Every time you "crunch" an item the system gives you some pp for excess materials, provided you take the essences or the enhancement spirit... the more things in the name of the item, the more pp you get... it's not as much as if you sold the item to a PB or a GV, but it's something... check your chat (by default it shows in the General Chat window)...

[JOTMON]

Speed up the crunch timer..

Wish the crafting alter was more like the vendor. Select a bunch of items.. sell all..give me the best value for the items i sold in essences.. done...

While you are at it.. fix the stone of change slow crunch delay.... I had 50,000 Siberys shards and had to crunch them 100 at a time...I couldnt even just put the stapler on the enter key and walk way..

click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..thats 1,000...
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..
click..click...click...click..click..click...click ..click...click...click..theres 1 stack, 4 more to go...

felt like i wasted my evening crunching these things..

Converting Epic Tokens is just as bad and have to be done 1 at a time...

[countfitz]

Agreed. I honestly don't know what is the point of crafting if you cannot really get anything significantly better than you can loot straight from a chest. The whole idea of crafting is to, at high crafting levels, be able to craft things that you cannot find elsewhere, be it special heal potions, 1 minute haste pots/clickes, deconstruct Green Steel and so forth. But right now even at highest levels you can only craft things that are marginally better than random loot -- and it takes a whole lot of time to get to the 130's+ -- so there really is no point, currently. I say either improve the rewards of the crafting grind at lvls 125+ or just abandon it and let only the completionists bother.

I haven't crafted since it started sucking (when they added all the extra ingredients like soul stones) but when I was, nothing I made was better than random loot. Have they changed something?

And to the OP, seriously, unless they changed something, it is way more economical to buy shroud ingredients with loot vendored trash and shroud runs than level up Cannith Crafting for twinked random loot. But, like I said, stopped a while ago, so maybe they fixed it. Doubt it.

[countfitz]

Every time you "crunch" an item the system gives you some pp for excess materials, provided you take the essences or the enhancement spirit... the more things in the name of the item, the more pp you get... it's not as much as if you sold the item to a PB or a GV, but it's something... check your chat (by default it shows in the General Chat window)...

Also, see my last post, I didn't know this. Is this also new? If so, does that mean my last post is wrong? Is it economical now to Cannith Craft vs. selling loot and buying stuff on the AH and shroud crafting? If so... I'm still doing it my way, shroud items are just better. And no, I don't care that a twinked holy burst silver falchion of greater outsider bane is better than a Min II GA, but I'm guessing a Lit II falchion with an artificer silvering it will be better.

[Rockcrusher]

Remove all Lesser Essences!

Crunching 5 to 1 is what I end up spending a large amount of time doing.
Can't you just use the Greater Essences and leave it at that?

[patang01]

I understand that it's a pretty complex system, but I wiss it was made a little bit smarter.

Like being able to sort by prefix or suffix or that you could have two prefix by a slight increase in level for doing that. And no arbitrary limitation on where you put the ability.

I understand that acid damage on a shield doesn't make sense but there are so many limitations, so much grind and so many different materials needed that it's truly frustrating. Not to mentioning the waste. I've made shards before that I thought was a suffix just to find out it's a prefix and had to figure out something else.

You can figure it out; but you have to look it up in the machine that binds the power with your item first instead of finding that info when you're creating a shard.

Plus all crafted items remain BTC even if you disjunct them again which is silly.

[Alabore]

/agree.

Streamline, trim down.
The amount of micromanagement sometimes bothers me.

...

/minirant

Characters should not earn any Crafting XP.
They aren't doing any actual crafting.
Players are.
It's more like Crafting Credits.
Make it server-based, Bound-to-Account.

;)

[Robi3.0]

I am enjoying it a lot , I must be weird.

[Baahb3]

Passing all your loot to your crafting character is not fun. Wasting so much time on inventory management is just ridiculous.



While I am not heavily invested yet into this crafting this is one thing that is starting to irk me more and more.

I know we already have a shared bank, but that is usually filled up with items that you want to keep but just use between characters.

I would really like to see a 'Decon cache' instituted very similar to your shared bank interface. Just a cache that you can dump all your vendor trash into so your crafter can access it easier and you don't have to fill up valuable shared bank slots or run to the mailbox so often.

[Ague]

Also, see my last post, I didn't know this. Is this also new? If so, does that mean my last post is wrong? Is it economical now to Cannith Craft vs. selling loot and buying stuff on the AH and shroud crafting? If so... I'm still doing it my way, shroud items are just better. And no, I don't care that a twinked holy burst silver falchion of greater outsider bane is better than a Min II GA, but I'm guessing a Lit II falchion with an artificer silvering it will be better.

I'm not sure when it was changed (or even if it was changed), but ultimately, it is still more economical to just sell the items... I think Turbine just realized that people were /ragequitting crafting because there was no money involved in offing all your hard earned loot in the crafting hall...

And I'm in no way trying to plead the case of Cannith crafting vs greensteel, because each are good in their own respect... Cannith being good for most any level toon, where Shroud stuff can't even be attained until high levels, unless you are a TR that already got Shroud stuff in your previous life...

[Ague]

While I am not heavily invested yet into this crafting this is one thing that is starting to irk me more and more.

I know we already have a shared bank, but that is usually filled up with items that you want to keep but just use between characters.

I would really like to see a 'Decon cache' instituted very similar to your shared bank interface. Just a cache that you can dump all your vendor trash into so your crafter can access it easier and you don't have to fill up valuable shared bank slots or run to the mailbox so often.

While this isn't a good route for most people, but you have the option to buy portable deconstruction device from the DDO Store... I've never used it personally, but know people that have (they are serious crafters)...

[testing1234]

Passing all your loot to your crafting character is not fun. Wasting so much time on inventory management is just ridiculous.

Not being able to sort the list in the alter is really a failure in design.
Sort by Prefix - NO
Sort by Suffix - NO
Sort by (+) to enchantment - NO
Sort by ML - NO
Sort by Item slot - NO
Would it be that hard to make the system easy to use?!?!?!
As it stands now, the ONLY way to make an item without prior knowledge, or wasting lots of time reading all the descriptions is to use outside resources to filter your options better, then go to the alter and try to figure it out.

Not knowing what the shard will do to the ML of the item at the time I make the shard. Now, I go to shard alter, find a shard I want to add, go to creation alter, check to see what will happen to the ML if added. Then go back to the shard alter, make the shard. Put it in the bank. Log on other toon, get shard, add to item.

Making 1000's of useless shards for leveling is not fun. Click .... Click .... Click .... Click .... Click ..... Click ...... Click ...... Click .......WAAAAHHHOOOO!!!!!

The LAG in the crafting hall is a joke, and not fun. You click on a device, sit for 4 min, and wait for the list to load. (would be great if I still partook in certain activities ... but alas i don't)

Now, no one forces me to use the system, but the benefits are outstanding. I just hate my time in the game while doing it.

correct correct correct correct correct correct, typing correct 5 times is no fun feel the crafting have that design should just need to type it once nobody likes having to type it 5times in a row to get the very large carrot.

[HarveyMilk]

I will never craft Cannith anything in its current form. It's flawed. I completely agree, after a VERY short glance at it.

It's not worth it.

And here's the opportunity that they missed. NO PUZZLES! Why didn't they make crafting a fun puzzle game? It would've fit DDO's theme as the puzzle and mind-oriented MMO. It would've been FUN. They could have even made little 2v2 and 3v3 crafting puzzle matches where the winner receives more crafting xp than the others.

Wow, can't tell you how much they missed the boat here. All grind, no fun, no way. BIG thx to my friends in-game who make me the unbound shards so I can enjoy the benefits. And I'm happy to pay back with plat and drops. Shoot, I'd rather give shroud ingredients than waste my time on that Cannith ****.

[altrocks]

Agreed, OP.

Another point that was brought up by many people is the relative uselessness of all the craftable items. I've played in a few different MMOs with crafting systems. Some were quite robust and complex, others were simplistic. some are class-based and some are open to all. No matter what kind of system you have, though, if players can't make and sell some of the best gear in the game, it becomes a useless addition, a waste of resources.

Currently, the highest level crafters can make awesome boss beaters for themselves and decent ones for everyone else. But at an extremely high cost. Higher than most are willing to deal with (though some at the top-tier of the game will pay ANYTHING for that 0.1% DPS edge, even if it's several million plat and a few large shroud mats).

The system is not fun at all. In fact, no matter what class/race you play, it actually takes away from the fun of playing that toon because crafting is in no way related to what they do. It's just another way to grind gear (along with Raids, Epics, Shroud mats, etc). I'd rather be running raids and epics with friends than sitting in a crafting hall staring at a trade-in box and reloading the screen every few minutes while dealing with massive lag and an inelegant, overly complex system. One can be fun and challenging, the other is never either of those.

[mobrien316]

It would be nice if you could crunch greater essences into lesser essences by number, rather than individually.

My crafter will wait until he has a good stack of a lot of different essences before going through the mindless grind of crafting shards he will never use just so he can deconstruct them again. (Talk about fun!)

So, I often find myself with a stack of, for example, 250 greater fire essences and 20 lesser fire essences. I have to crunch each greater, one at a bloody time, until I get down to a number that will allow me to craft a few useless shards.

And it really wouldn't matter if I ran to the crafting hall every time I accumlated five greaters; the amount of time spent crunching greaters would remain the same, except it would be spread out instead of all at once.

However, I can craft a set of feather falling boots with ease. That's awesome, because we all know how hard it is to find feather falling boots in a chest or buy them from a vendor or from the Auction House.

And, of course, if you try to craft a single useful item for a low-leve character (such as a greater magnetism III dagger of power for a level 5 wizard, it winds up being a higher minimum level than you can use. By the time you get to the level you can use it, you have already found a dozen such items in various chests, or been able to buy one for relatively little money on the AH.

[Rumbaar]

It's said that it's moved out of BETA so quickly and still has yet to be finalized. Visually and mechanically.

Yes the sorting and finding of recipes is very user un-friendly. For the life of my try to find the new -2 level recipes without knowing their names ... for example.

[Xyfiel]

How I remove the grind feeling

1) play game
2) once a month send all essences to shared bank, log in crafter, get essences
3) spend an hour or two crafting
4) see if my levels allow me to craft something I can use, craft shards, send to char who needs it

Currently at 42 all, in no rush. There is nothing at high levels that will make or break my characters at this time. At some point my crafter who is also my main has to get a Artificer life. I can use store boosts, the Artificer boost, go human dragonmark, and craft some of the higher level stuff while on that life. I still haven't went thru my 2 accounts to deconstruct all my old random items. Nor do I bother deconstructing items after questing. Still isn't fun, but it's minimal time invested.

[Tsuarok]

Allow deconstruction of all shards placed in machine. Allow 50 stacks of 100 shards to be placed in the machine.

That said, I don't mind it that much. I don't deconstruct items. I just stick all accumulated essences in a large bag I keep in the shared bank. Once in a while, when I don't have time to actually quest, I'll spend a few minutes crafting shards.

[crestoftheknave]

.

I would really like to see a 'Decon cache' instituted very similar to your shared bank interface. Just a cache that you can dump all your vendor trash into so your crafter can access it easier and you don't have to fill up valuable shared bank slots or run to the mailbox so often.


THIS..... what a fantastic idea. +1 to you.

[cdr]

I agree crafting's boring, but it's been completely worth the couple million plat of materials and dozen hours I've invested in it. This might be because I level characters a lot, and crafting makes some bonkers twink gear. I'm certainly going to spend the next couple million plat necessary to get from the 70s to 90s.

[wyndzen]

A few points:

- I agree with the OP in general. All of the things you identify as not fun are true and unnecessary, as you say.

- People who dont think that you can make super-ultra powerful items when crafting don't have monk splashes that use handwraps, as my characters tend to. For handwraps specifically, Cannith crafting ***EXCEPT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOTALLY BUGGED FOR FIVE MONTHS*** results in damage PER HANDWRAP HIT that is 15-30 higher against many bosses, compared with Devout Handwraps or compared to very rare lucky wraps such as a pair I have that are +5 vicious GEOB. But, except for the fact that they are totally bugged to heck, silver holy GLOB handwraps or Adam holy/vicious GCB are so far better than anything random, it is massive.

- Separately, especially if you TR a lot, which I do, crafting is pretty awesome. Two reasons: 1) just the right gear in just the right slot at just the right level, and 2) Guild augment slots. For a sorc, you are looking at 160 mana, for example, from a large slot item. Add to that superior inferno 7 for del blast fireball (which then does almost 600 dam at lvl 14 to each mob in a huge radius), a +3,4, and 5 heavy mithral shield of superior stability along with casting dex gloves, 20 hps from another guild slot, and you are significantly more powerful. And if you dont think a sorc with 57 ac at lvl 15 is useful, you haven't tried it. You essentially dont lose any mana or damage by gearing up that way (with parasitic breastplate and elf enhancements), and basically nothing hits you, meaning you no longer need to be a warforged or [wizard of course] pale master to heal yourself so much.

- The real scandal, worse than the crappy search and bad overall design of crafting, is that all handwrap users (except maybe high level light monks with top-of-the-line random wraps) are suffering through horribly bugged crafted wraps for months, literally reducing their hit by 5-10 and their dam by numbers ranging from 10 to 30 or more. Anybody who experiences this is enraged and horrified. Imagine the outcry if all barbs did 60 less dam a hit (the thf equivalent) for 5 months because of a bug that Turbine couldnt be bothered to fix.

[Kmnh]

Don't try to level up your crafter as you go, it's too painful. The whole "decosntruct" system is a joke.


Buy giant stacks of essnces and level up from 1 to 71 (greater construct bane) in one go. Sure, it's a few hours of pain, but so is running the shroud over and over, and the crafting rewards are worth it. I won't ever make a min2 for my new characters.

[Fejj]

Talk about painful .... I forgot the worst part. Sitting there making lesser essences.

With a need for 80 to 1 ratio, (worse as you are higher level) grinding up larges to make smaller ones is the MOST TEDIOUS process yet.

How hard would it be to add a button, "grind all"??? This way, I keep 100 greater, and grind up the rest. One click .... not thousands and thousands. Or better yet, just eliminate the lessers all together from the higher recipes.

I really don't think a single developer actually plays the game, otherwise none of these systems would be in place. "hmm, I'd like to try out lvl 100 crafting ..... /setcraftinglevel,100,100,100. There we go, now, /setessences,5000*.ess Nice, 5000 of each essence. WOW - this system is amazing, i can craft up all sorts of goodies .... why are people so mad about it?"

[jsaving]

Your crafting XP should be BTA not BTC. Seriously. Its just not fun to have to continually swap back and forth to make items for your lowbies.
Passing all your loot to your crafting character is not fun. Wasting so much time on inventory management is just ridiculous.
If you're on the fence about whether to do any crafting at all, BtA crafting XP might cut down on the time investment enough to push people over the edge and get them interested in Cannith crafting. And on the other side of the coin, BtA crafting XP would help those who did a lot of crafting before the latest update and feel a bait-and-switch was pulled with regard to the artificer class and marks of making, perhaps encouraging them to more fully participate in Cannith crafting going forward. So at least as far as I can tell, letting crafting XP be BtA would get the player base more involved in the system without really hurting anybody.

You do sometimes hear the argument that store sales would go down if crafting XP became BtA, because so many people are buying the shared bank just to pass shards from one character to another. I don't know how true this argument is -- seems to me that most people who put a huge amount of time into the game would want the shared bank anyway -- but I do suspect you'd see increased sales for some of the per-character store offerings (bags, Kundarak storage, inventory panels) if crafting XP were made BtA. I also wouldn't be surprised if players would spend somewhat more time adventuring if this were done, which would drive up sales of "questing" items to some degree too. I'm not sure how the scales would balance out at the end of the day, but it would certainly be a shame if a perception of lower store sales were to keep crafting XP BtC.

[Elixxer]

It's to much of a boring grind, and hard to use.
Even with two other players giving me their essences I'm not leveling all that fast. I refuse to buy essences, I'm broke lol. And why cant 5 lessers = 1 greater?

/signed.

[laurawilder]

I also think it should be limited even more. BTA is silly and just dumbs down the game again for all mental midgets. They should make crafting only able to be done by characters with an Int of 16 or greater in my opinion. It is a luxury and a speciality and many act like they should raise 150 levels in two evenings. lol. Better yet lets make it a barbarian with an Int of 8 and get him maxed in one day even though he should not even comprehend what an essence is let alone what it can be used for.

Also its not meant to be fun per se its a job in a make believe world and thats what will make some ableto make things and others mooching off them.

Personally I like that I can now make underwater action/featherfall rings BTA at will. Its great to make rings that have reflex+4 on the same as a +5 dd for low alts. I mean whats more boring grinding Lordsmarch over and again on all alts for the Sora Kell set you may need

or having one alt that can just make +6 items at will...think about it I know most of you can figure out that one.

[Daedalis]

My only grip for the crafting is that weapons created are one level higher than a randomly generated item.

+1 acid (halfling or weapon of your choice) of pure good at vendor is ML 4
+1 acid (halfling or weapon of your choice) of pure good that has been crafted is ML 5

Why create an item that is higher that one you can get at the AH or Vendor. Something just doesn't add up lol....1+2+1+1....no its 1+2+2+1....no its 1+1+2+1....wait......just too many numbers :eek:

I don't understand why something I can get at lvl 2 (pure good) is so high on the XP list for crafting. +1 halfling of pure good is lvl 2. Needs a little tlc on weapons....but I think that has been brought up before.

[Fejj]

Also its not meant to be fun per se its a job in a make believe world

Sorry, but I have a Job, and don't feel that any aspect of a game should feel like work. The devs have made all the other grinds in the game, somewhat enjoyable. Even The Shroud .... sure I've run it 100's of times, but each time is still enjoyable for me. I still have yet to try moterboating on a 5x5, so it seems I still have some things to experience.

I am glad you enjoy the mindless button clicking that is crafting. I however, do not.

Your ideas of limiting it more go against the one tenant that was good, (before U11). Turbine said that they would not force us to create "crafting characters" and go ahead and craft on our mains, cause "trust us", we'll never give out buffs to other classes for crafting.......

When I read your post, I think of Ultima Online, where you had "jobs" .... do you really want ddo to go in that direction? People cutting down trees, shaving branches, making shafts, raising chickens, plucking feathers, making shafts with feathers, mining ore, forming arrowheads, adding arrow heads to shafts with feathers to make arrows? No thanks.

[BoBo2020]

I craft a lot and I like it.

All of my characters are outfitted to the gills.

When artificer came out, I walked over the crafting hall and made a unbalancing docent of superior stability for my dog (ML7) - good luck finding that on the auction house.

Robe of invulnerabilty for my monk (ML1) done.

BTA feather fall ring (ML1) - easy, run Stand your Ground and get a BTA ring and craft away. No need to farm Shan-To-Kor for a ring of feathers.

Ranged alacrity for my runearm (making runearm ML5 ) done.

Going to Delera's? Holy quarterstaff of Undead Bane - done.

Need to do Church and the Cult - 2 minutes in the crafting hall and I have a decent and relatively inexpensive silver/good weapon.

VON3 ? - let me grab my anarchic handwraps. A few levels later I need Shroud portal beaters - ok, just add construct bane.


Does it take awhile to level up, maybe, but not really. Take a few risks on recipes and you will level up faster. no risk = less reward. But once you've leveled - you never have to do it again and the rewards are pretty great so far.

[Alabore]

Also its not meant to be fun per se its a job in a make believe world and thats what will make some ableto make things and others mooching off them.

In a sense, this is true.
Given its potential impact, Cannith Crafting is relatively easy to master, given enough time and resources.

As you mentioned, it doesn't even require you to devote - sacrifice...? - a character to it.
Even the Int 6 Horc Barb can not only learn it, but even master it to full proficiency.
And craft usable things for others to mooch off.

The point of making crafting XP shared is this: make the results of disjointing apply on an account-basis.
Turn them into server-specific crafting credits.
Allow for extra shared space for essences.
Make it so the boring part becomes transparent - more or less as it used to be hitting brokers to sell loot.

And rework the critical part, the actual crafting, so you have to devote resources of some kind to produce anything of lasting value.
The idea of using rare loot for some recipes had some merit - too bad they arbitrarily chose valuable items for not so valuable recipes.

If you had to sacrifice a token from a devil-themed quest, to craft an outsider-bane weapon, it would make sense.
After all, you first need to beat Muck to get a Muckbane.
Or you have to fork some plat out, and get it from somebody who beat it first.

They tried to offset the potential lack of balance in Cannith Crafting by adding speedbumps: somewhat clunky UI and mechanics.
But you could join a guild, become their dedicated crafter, crunch and decrunch shards on their behalf, eventually become capable of churning out holy of greater outsider bane, while still running a lvl 1 Int 6 Horc Barb.

We already have tokens to unlock items.
Cannith Crafting could be tweaked along those lines.
I'd rather have a quest drop a token that allows me to do some special crafting, than having to stop questing, mail essences and junk around, disjoint them, rinse and repeat.

BtA crafting credits are just a tiny part in a larger picture, with tweaked Cannith Crafting being the real subject.

[Galeria]

I agree with the sundering essences UI... I need 200 lesser essences I don't want to click the button 40 times. I want to be able to ctrl-click and put in how many essences to sunder, just like when I purchase multiple items.

I also would have a whole lot more enthusiasm for the grind if I could put qualities on non-standard slot items. Dexterity on my robe? Why not? Strength on my hat? Hardly overpowered.

I don't mind paying more essences for non-standard slots, as long as it was possible. It would allow me to craft useful items for slots where I may not need the standard suffix/prefix.

Love the idea of a decon cache- you could even make it a store-purchaseable item and limit it so that nothing you put in can be taken out, only deconstructed. But you know what? They want you to pay for that... 50 TP for 2 minutes of remote decon. Every time you want to use it, another 50 tp. I imagine they won't consider any sort of permanent decon cache.

[Terminus-Est]

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment.

On my main character (which just hit level 20 a few weeks ago) I spent levels 1-15 breaking down about 80% of the loot I got out of chests, selling the really expensive ones. I didn't break anything down after I started raiding/shroud/etc but just sold it because I needed the plat.

Once I got 32 builds, I made my second character (an Artificer), transfered all my essences over to him and tried to gear him out as best I could. I didn't have alot of twink gear, just random things here and there. But with 15 levels worth of essences in his pocket, my dude was able to build specific items at low levels to help him get the job done; like his screaming bleeding crossbow, his item of +7 search and another one of +7 disable, his docent of lifeshield etc;

Now I could have ground all those items up for him, but I've never seen a screaming bleeding crossbow that wasn't crafted and I've never had lifeshield drop on a random item that wasn't a min level 12 weapon (bows mostly, too).

So for -me-, it let me skip grinding for gear on my second character. I likely will not have the resources to do this for every single character, but hopefully I'll have enough 'proper' twink gear that it wont be as much of a concern.

[tinyelvis]

I don't have an issue here, but It seems I use a different approach.

1. Accumulate items while questing
2. Pop into hall deconstruct (Takes, little more time than selling)
Repeat step 1 and 2
3. At end of week or whenever, craft shards to boost XP. Don't care what shard, just so long as it has high XP. I'll set my bag to filter say lesser's then pull a stack out and slap in machine. Craft with them until I run out, then clear and move on to next lesser stack. It takes maybe ten minutes to burn through them all. Occasionally, I look at greaters and go break them down if necessary.

I've crafted superior clickies that are very useful when TR'n. You can never buy what you need when you need. I don't put a lot of time into thinking about The perfect thing to craft. I browsed the wiki once, looking at items and know what I eventually want. I don't spend time shipping things back and forth between toons. Overall, when you consider that I would be selling or auctioning the loot, I spend about the same amount of time as before.

One more thing, I usually craft whatever will get me highest XP for recourses. Most of the time 50-65% success stuff. I have never had the interest or time to sit down and figure out if this is the best approach. I discard pretty much all shards created.

[kcru]

If you had to sacrifice a token from a devil-themed quest, to craft an outsider-bane weapon, it would make sense.


Devil scales... it's in there.



That said, by the time I got halfway competant at crafting I was running shroud, etc. The Prefix/Suffix problem basically makes virtually everything I can currently craft inferior to named loot or greensteel, and there's just not that much random loot that I have left (and nothing I'd want.. since I'm not at top crafting yet.)


Until such time as there's a mechanism to add a second Prefix and Suffix to an item, convert a prefix to a suffix and vice versa, etc, the limitations make it mostly pointless past say level 15 unless you're willing to invest a LOT into the system.

For the time being I've decided to suspend crafting and building up a banking warchest so that I can afford to buy some GS ingrediants, tomes and Greater Reincarn. I've just got far too far to go to make anything awesome via Cannith (where awesome = high level shard, not multiple low level shards) when I have other routes to make awesome things more easily.


My level 10 appreciates the sacrifice though.

[Cogdoc]

I am enjoying it a lot , I must be weird.

I also enjoy crafting. Its not like you _have_ to do it. Its an addition to what you could also do before it was introduced.

I dont do it as a campaign for a whole day or so, I just carry my inventory what I have gathered in the past few quests there once in a while, deconstruct and make some shards if I need anything I can craft. Previously I was vendoring them, now I am deconstructing them.

Surely with this method you cannot craft better items what you could otherwise find, but what if you didnt find them at all due to evil RNG? What if the AH is empty? Crafting is just another option, an alternate route you can take.

Cogdoc

[aiastelmon]

I also think it should be limited even more. BTA is silly and just dumbs down the game again for all mental midgets. They should make crafting only able to be done by characters with an Int of 16 or greater in my opinion.

What they really need to do is make posting on these forums require an Int of 16 or greater.

[Marewood]

Absoluteley agree with the OP! +1rep.

The only thing i wonder is why it is always the player base who comes up with such good ideas and why it is not there by design.

Every few weeks we see new content which is only half way done. Why not stop for a second and really really spend some tome to make the content you spend actually enjoyable Turbine?

Isnt it enough that you ruin whole builds and countless hours invested in building up toons with the flick of a switch with the lame excuse for game balance?

I once enjoyed this game, but over the last few weeks I spend less and less time playing and it seems I am not the only one as the high level raid LFMs seem to be pretty dried out on Argo.

So plz Turbine - invest some time and make this game fun again (fixing canith crafting and fort/sneak damage on raid bosses would be a good start).Why not skip one content update and instead implement some simple changes and bugfixes that would add alot to gameplay? Like U13: Rise of the bugfixes. This would be a good way to continue on this road. The forums are full of good suggestions on where to start.

[patang01]

Hopefully in the future Turbine will offer a marketplace separate fom auction and trade tells where people can go to one spot, click and see all the stuff people have for sale in the marketplace. With a good function to sort.

And that Turbine figure out that being forced to waste demon blood, large devil scale PLUS a truck ton of essences and other stuff is a silly way of destroying what crafting should be about.

Think about it; who in their right mind would craft to sell a good item if they first have to waste material that sells for a truck load in the AH. Imagine the cost of that item in ingame money. Now why would anyone bother becoming level 150 in crafting just to make those items unbound to sell when it's much easier for anyone else (and cheaper) to hit level 100 themselves and make their own similar item. Why would anyone want to buy a silver holy burst of greater evil outsider bane, when the cost to make that item FAR outstrips the time it takes for someone to invest in their own crafting.

If Turbine wanted to create a system where no one actually craft for other peoples consumption then this is a 'success'.

Who in their right mind creates high end items for consumption when the people who can buy them probably have their own high crafting toons?

Don't know - but someone got this whole crafting dead wrong.

[wyndzen]

Absoluteley agree with the OP! +1rep.

The only thing i wonder is why it is always the player base who comes up with such good ideas and why it is not there by design.

Every few weeks we see new content which is only half way done. Why not stop for a second and really really spend some tome to make the content you spend actually enjoyable Turbine?

Isnt it enough that you ruin whole builds and countless hours invested in building up toons with the flick of a switch with the lame excuse for game balance?

I once enjoyed this game, but over the last few weeks I spend less and less time playing and it seems I am not the only one as the high level raid LFMs seem to be pretty dried out on Argo.

So plz Turbine - invest some time and make this game fun again (fixing canith crafting and fort/sneak damage on raid bosses would be a good start).Why not skip one content update and instead implement some simple changes and bugfixes that would add alot to gameplay? Like U13: Rise of the bugfixes. This would be a good way to continue on this road. The forums are full of good suggestions on where to start.

Amen.

Turbine management doesn't seem to have any idea the anger and annoyance they cause when they kick us in the nuts with bugs AFTER we have invested in the game.

The seem to think that fixing the Cove is an emergency, but nobody loses any investment when the Cove isnt up when scheduled. People might want it up, and some might really be looking forward to it, but at least nobody invested hundreds of hours and then had that essentially erased (except for people screwed by the crash bug that Cove recently had, but that is a separate thing).

Priority number one should be to fix all the bugs with items and abilities that people have based characters (often hundreds of real life hours) on. Not new content that itself has a zillion bugs since Turbine management cant seem to either hire competent coders, or else they dont give their coders the right environment.

It isnt good for business to have customers who deeply despise and resent your company, and that is what you are creating.

I said nearly the same exact line as the poster I quoted after I saw "Secrets of the Artificers." I said, how about "the Decline of the Bugs?"

I see less LFM's for high level raids also, on Khyber. I'd love to see Turbine crash and burn, and I play the game for a few hours each day. I'll play it still, since I have some rl friends who play, but I despise them so much at this point, I'd love to see all the players walk away in disgust.

People get very upset if they work on a project such as a term paper for 10 hours and have it erased. We work on characters for 100's of hours and have them screwed to heck by either bugs or constant capricious rule changes... how much more angry do you think we feel towards you, Turbine?

[MrTops]

I've found the crafting useful.

It meant I could make things like holy silver of EOB and holy cold iron of COB for far less than AH prices.

Also greater spell focus items. Between rings, bracers, trinkets and weapons you can easily have two or three on at once.

And stability / reinforced plating / natural armour meant I could get meaningful AC on my WF sorc up to Gianthold without to much effort.

Plus other stuff ...

The interminable button clicking is a pain though.

I'd like to be able mark a load of items as trash and dump them all into the machine (like selling to a vendor) and have it deconstruct whatever gave the most essences. Or rank essence types in order of what you wanted and have it preferentially choose the highest ranked essences.

Also dump in all you leveling shards and deconstruct them all in one go.

And have the option to keep making this shard until I've made X of them, or I run out of materials.

Features like this should help ease some of the pain.

[Alabore]

The interminable button clicking is a pain though.
I'd like to be able mark a load of items as trash and dump them all into the machine (like selling to a vendor).
...
Also dump in all you leveling shards and deconstruct them all in one go.
....
Features like this should help ease some of the pain.

^^^
This.

Mentioned before.
Warrants being stressed again: streamline and trim down.
Do away with clunky mechanics/UI.
Clunky is not balanced against power players.
It's just a speedbump.

[Viisari]

What? Can't craft good stuff? Minimum level 5 +4 to hit goggles and +4 protection necklace have been pretty awesome for me...

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Banes are nice too.

And +6 stat items with minimum lvl 9.

That's just some of the stuff, crafted TR gear is ridiculously powerful currently, and it's not possible to loot things like that.

I just wish they'd fix handwraps :|

[kcru]

What? Can't craft good stuff? Minimum level 5 +4 to hit goggles and +4 protection necklace have been pretty awesome for me...


+2 to hit at moderate levels, not +4. I already had a cove trinket that's +1... so 1 better. Not bad, but not OMG!

+4 I'm nowhere close to making, and then it's a question... Greensteel goggles with many effects vs +4 attack and blindness ward?






+5 Holy Burst of Greater Banes are nice too.


At really high skill levels. Sure, and noted that weapons are an exception since you can make weapons dedicated to a single foe.





And +6 stat items with minimum lvl 9.


At really high skill levels, if you're twinking. If you're not twinking by the time you get anywhere close to +6 it's not worthwhile. And even if you're twinking, it's much cheaper to just buy a stat item.



They really need to impliment a way to get more effects onto an item and/or a way to get a shard to bind in a non-traditional spot. It's still going to be subject to Potential and minimum levels, it would just make it useful to higher level characters. Cannith crafting needs flexibility to be really appealing.

[Viisari]

+2 to hit at moderate levels, not +4. I already had a cove trinket that's +1... so 1 better. Not bad, but not OMG!

+4 I'm nowhere close to making, and then it's a question... Greensteel goggles with many effects vs +4 attack and blindness ward?

Since when have you been able to use greensteel goggles since lvl 5? Also, making other than HP GS goggles for tanking, GS goggles for a melee are silly because of Tharne's and some other good goggles.


At really high skill levels. Sure, and noted that weapons are an exception since you can make weapons dedicated to a single foe.

At really high skill levels, if you're twinking. If you're not twinking by the time you get anywhere close to +6 it's not worthwhile. And even if you're twinking, it's much cheaper to just buy a stat item.

Obviously the good stuff is going to be very high level, what point would there be to high levels otherwise? Crafting is a long term investment, you won't get the really good stuff out of it overnight, overnight you'll get the pretty nice stuff like cheap boss beaters and some minor twinking gear.

And it's just fine that way.


They really need to impliment a way to get more effects onto an item and/or a way to get a shard to bind in a non-traditional spot. It's still going to be subject to Potential and minimum levels, it would just make it useful to higher level characters. Cannith crafting needs flexibility to be really appealing.

Cannith crafting is already very powerful and flexible, having just prefix and suffix is fine. If we can start adding even more stuff to them they'll start overshadowing raid loot which is a no no.

Sure it's not without its problems like long loading times for recipies and too much clicking, but saying you can't make really, really good items with it is just false.

[kcru]

Since when have you been able to use greensteel goggles since lvl 5?

We're talking past each other. You keep saying "Cannith crafting is awesome for twinkers!" I keep saying, "Cannith Crafting sucks for end game." (except the solitary exception of boss-beaters.)




Also, making other than HP GS goggles for tanking, GS goggles for a melee are silly because of Tharne's and some other good goggles.


So you won't be using your +4 attack goggles either.





Cannith crafting is already very powerful and flexible, having just prefix and suffix is fine. If we can start adding even more stuff to them they'll start overshadowing raid loot which is a no no.


Very funny. Canith Crafting is totally INFLEXIBLE. And yes, if you get something up to Potential +15, then it SHOULD overshadow raid loot or at least be comparable. That's a lot of effort directed into a single item. To add multiple prefix/suffixes they could even require raid elements like they did with Devil Scales, etc.




Sure it's not without its problems like long loading times for recipies and too much clicking, but saying you can't make really, really good items with it is just false.

Why am I going to add Heavy Fort to a cannith item (1 of 2 effects) when I can get Heavy Fort as one of 4/5 effects on something else? Basically Cannith is a dead end for end game. Yeah sure, a twinkers paradise. That's not what it was billed as though, and basically why I'm canning development for the time being. I have better uses for the money.

[andbr22]

I just want them to repair handwarps crafting (it is not fun that best crafed handwarps are so weak that I on normal use old "none DR breaking" warps).

[Exar_Jun]

/signed did not read the whole thread but crafting is very boring and takes forever to be real useful beyond level 8 character items.

Why not have shard drop in chest that are BTA. It would be a nice feature to find one every once in a while that is useful.

Also, drop lessers and just have on essence.

Too much clicking, reduce the need for many clicks.

[Viisari]

We're talking past each other. You keep saying "Cannith crafting is awesome for twinkers!" I keep saying, "Cannith Crafting sucks for end game." (except the solitary exception of boss-beaters.)

Why should you be able to craft better things than raid most raid loot?


So you won't be using your +4 attack goggles either.

During my current life, no I don't plan on using them after I'm lvl 20, because I will be using Epic Raven's Sights or Tharne's. You know, gear that's much more difficult to come by.

But in my previous life I did use them quite a bit while tanking, Bloodstone was in trinket slot so no Raven set, and I had no hp GS so no hp item either. The extra hit is quite good against epic bosses.

<edit> And if I ever actually get goggles with a large guild slot I probably won't bother crafting the GS either unless I have nothing else to craft at the time.


Very funny. Canith Crafting is totally INFLEXIBLE. And yes, if you get something up to Potential +15, then it SHOULD overshadow raid loot or at least be comparable. That's a lot of effort directed into a single item. To add multiple prefix/suffixes they could even require raid elements like they did with Devil Scales, etc.

It's not a lot of effort, it's a lot of value for a single item. The only effort in Cannith crafting comes from getting levels, and unless you want to do it very quickly it's not bad. Once you have the levels there's no grind at all.

And do you know why Cannith crafting for endgame is good? Because you can indeed craft items that overshadow raid loot, but only in a very specific niche use. It's a good balance like that. If we start adding more effects then they become good in a more general use and truly start overshadowing raid loot.

And even then they're not the best there is.


Why am I going to add Heavy Fort to a cannith item (1 of 2 effects) when I can get Heavy Fort as one of 4/5 effects on something else? Basically Cannith is a dead end for end game. Yeah sure, a twinkers paradise. That's not what it was billed as though, and basically why I'm canning development for the time being. I have better uses for the money.

Because not everyone has the time or the patience to gear all their toons with greensteel or other raid loot. I know people who mainly focus on their main toons as far as gear goes, and for them Cannith crafting is very good, even for endgame, because they can just craft some fairly powerful items for their alts without having to run raids etc for them.

There're also things that are not dead for endgame either way, like vampirisim, many of the greater focuses, dodge bonuses etc. One of the reason is that some of them are extremely difficult to obtain elsewhere , other is that they might fit gear layouts better when crafted.

But again, why should Cannith crafting be better than most endgame loot? That makes no sense. Epics are where the endgame is at along with high level raids, it's silly to suggest that you should be able to easily craft more or equally powerful gear with Cannith crafting. The ONLY effort that Cannith crafting has is the leveling part, after leveling is done you can craft basically anything at your leisure. Lessers and greaters aren't that hard to come by, most of them go to leveling anyway.

Getting raid loot and epic loot is much more difficult, thus they should be more powerful for general use.

[kcru]

But again, why should Cannith crafting be better than most endgame loot? That makes no sense. Epics are where the endgame is at along with high level raids, it's silly to suggest that you should be able to easily craft more or equally powerful gear with Cannith crafting. The ONLY effort that Cannith crafting has is the leveling part, after leveling is done you can craft basically anything at your leisure. Lessers and greaters aren't that hard to come by, most of them go to leveling anyway.


The "Good" stuff requires items from adventure packs, raid items, etc. Tell me why I shouldn't be able to craft things as good as a raid item if I'm using items from raids?

Aquiring those things to allow multiple shards is the "effort." The same effort as running them for the other ****. You keep blowing past this, pretending that I'm asking for an unlimited number of prefixes and suffixes for no effort. Not the case. However, there is no way to do this WITH effort, and that's why it's an utter failure in my opinion.




Getting raid loot and epic loot is much more difficult, thus they should be more powerful for general use.

So there's no reason to level crafting on high level toons with the exception of boss beaters (if you care). This is what I was saying. We agree.

[Viisari]

The "Good" stuff requires items from adventure packs, raid items, etc. Tell me why I shouldn't be able to craft things as good as a raid item if I'm using items from raids?

What are you smoking? There are no shards that require any raid loot, and there are, if I remember right, *FIVE* shards that require you to have specific adventure packs, and that's it. And considering those shards are one of the best one, it's not really unreasonable, plus atleast two of the items are from packs people are very likely to have anyway.

Seems like you don't even really know much about crafting...


So there's no reason to level crafting on high level toons with the exception of boss beaters (if you care). This is what I was saying. We agree.

Then again, I don't remember the devs ever stating that Cannith crafting is here to replace end game gear, and doing so would be stupid in my opinion. Cannith crafting is an excellent supplement for toons that do not yet have their raid loot or other gear, in addition to some more specific end game uses and TR twinking. And it's very good for all of those.

This isn't even mentioning all the balance issues that could rise from lifting the prefix & suffix restriction and item slot restriction for shards, devs can't account for all the combinations and it could allow for too powerful gear combinations. Raid loot is specificly designed with all this in mind so you have to make decisions about what which items you can use and where. It's a can of worms you don't want to touch.

[kcru]

What are you smoking? There are no shards that require any raid loot, and there are, if I remember right, *FIVE* shards that require you to have specific adventure packs, and that's it. And considering those shards are one of the best one, it's not really unreasonable, plus atleast two of the items are from packs people are very likely to have anyway.


Large Devil shards are now required for Greater X Outsider Bane.
Medium I believe are requited for X Outsider Bane.


For a while, they were actually requiring gear like Dreamspitter.
http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/showthread.php?p=3911760


As of 10.2 they changed that to high favor, aquired in raids.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_10_Patch_2_Official


http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/showthread.php?p=4001025


1x Large Devil Scales, 1x Mystical Plant, and 5x Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Lawful Outsider Bane shard
1x Mystical Plant and 3 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Plant Bane shard
1x Demon's Blood, 1x Mystical Goblet, and 5x Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane shard
50x Adamantine Ore and 4x Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Construct Bane shard
20x Greater Elemental Bane Arrows, 20x Elemental Slaying Arrows, and 5x Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Elemental Bane shard
1x Flawless Siberys Dragonshard, 5x Blood of Dragons, and 5x Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Dragon Bane shard
1x Demon's Blood, 1x Large Devil Scales, and 5x Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments for Greater Evil Outsider Bane shard



Absolutely nothing preventing them from adding additional items as prerequisites for joining shards like GS does, etc.






Seems like you don't even really know much about crafting...


Seems like you haven't looked at these recipes since they were easy.






Cannith crafting is an excellent supplement for toons that do not yet have their raid loot or other gear, in addition to some more specific end game uses and TR twinking. And it's very good for all of those.


If you happen to have a million plat to buy all of your essences to hit crafting 100 at level 10. If not, it's a very limited lifespan investment. For most people, best to just skip it and do raids. It takes less time than levelling crafting "normally" (ie. deconstructing what you earn.)







This isn't even mentioning all the balance issues that could rise from lifting the prefix & suffix restriction and item slot restriction for shards, devs can't account for all the combinations and it could allow for too powerful gear combinations. Raid loot is specificly designed with all this in mind so you have to make decisions about what which items you can use and where. It's a can of worms you don't want to touch.

So they're going to stop releasing new content soon because that will give people too many options? *eyeroll*


If they want Cannith to remain the realm of twink gear, it can stay as it is. I don't have any need for that, so will be avoiding it. It's not worth the extra couple million plat for me to make a boss beater at this time. Maybe later.

[Viisari]

Large Devil shards are now required for Greater X Outsider Bane.
Medium I believe are requited for X Outsider Bane.

Absolutely nothing preventing them from adding additional items as prerequisites for joining shards like GS does, etc.

Turbine themselves admitted it was pretty much a screwup on their part to require any raidloot in crafting. Large devil scales, while they drop in a raid not really *raid loot*, they're crafting components, and pretty much *the* in-game currency along with red scales.

And on top of that large devil scales are not bound at all, they can be traded. The thing with raid loot is that they can't be traded. There are currently only 5 shards that require bound to account components, 8 if we count the ones that need favor.

<edit> And yes while Purified shards are BtA, you can get them from several sources that are not, Blood of Dragons is BtA though, and I don't really agree with the shards requiring so many of them. Arrows and ores etc. have nothing at all to do with raid loot.

With all this in mind, I very much doubt Turbine will ever again add bound to character raid loot to Cannith crafting.


Seems like you haven't looked at these recipes since they were easy.

Sure I have, and with the exception of Greater Dragon Bane, all of them all completely reasonable for their usefulness.


If you happen to have a million plat to buy all of your essences to hit crafting 100 at level 10. If not, it's a very limited lifespan investment. For most people, best to just skip it and do raids. It takes less time than levelling crafting "normally" (ie. deconstructing what you earn.)

Million plat for crafting level 100? Dude, you'll need tens of millions of plat to go from 0 -> 100, maybe even hundreds of millions. It's not supposed to be easy to do that, and it's not. Even I don't have any schoold at 100 yet.

I said before that high levels of Cannith crafting are a long term investment. Mid levels already give you some pretty good stuff and you can get to those rather easily.


So they're going to stop releasing new content soon because that will give people too many options? *eyeroll*

Eh? No, they will design any new raid loot in such ways that we are forced to make difficult choices with our gear layouts, you know, stuff like do I want to use Epic Spectral Gloves with Raven's Sight set for even moar to hit, or do I want to use Epic Gloves of the Claw for awesome healing amp and more damage.

With all the shards in Cannith crafting there has to be limits, I doubt the devs can account for all the silly combinations players would come up with if they just removed many of those limitations. DDO is already a monty haul, no need to make it even more so without careful planning.


If they want Cannith to remain the realm of twink gear, it can stay as it is. I don't have any need for that, so will be avoiding it. It's not worth the extra couple million plat for me to make a boss beater at this time. Maybe later.

That's your choice. I have rather high crafting levels and I'm very happy that I do, I get to craft twinking gear and the occasional stuff for high levels, like dual +5 khopesh with destruction and improved destruction. For party buffing. Elemental absorbtion shards are pretty nice too, and there's probably more, but those are just the ones I've crafted or plan on crafting.

<edit> Oh, and none of the Marks of favor require you to do any raids at all...

[kcru]

Turbine themselves admitted it was pretty much a screwup on their part to require any raidloot in crafting. Large devil scales, while they drop in a raid not really *raid loot*, they're crafting components, and pretty much *the* in-game currency along with red scales.


For the Vale they're THE raid loot that people are doing the raid for. Call it what you like.




And on top of that large devil scales are not bound at all, they can be traded.

Yes. And I can buy enough of them with cash that except for 4 Shards, I have a top notch GS item. How is that "challenging?" Barring the end fights, you can have a tier 2 GS item that's pretty trivial to get.

Why is it outrageous to be able to craft something equivilent to Tier 2 GS again? Or even something that I get as a named from from one of the Orchards of the Macbre quests (ie. Temple of Vol, etc.. not abbot) Boots of the Innocent... Belt of Contemplation (or something like that.) 3+ effects make Cannith gear just look sad.




With all this in mind, I very much doubt Turbine will ever again add bound to character raid loot to Cannith crafting.


I never said "bound to account." I said "raid loot" ie. things you get from a raid.





Million plat for crafting level 100? Dude, you'll need tens of millions of plat to go from 0 -> 100, maybe even hundreds of millions. It's not supposed to be easy to do that, and it's not. Even I don't have any schoold at 100 yet.


If it's not supposed to be easy to get lackluster gear, then I'll choose the easy way and just buy items and ingrediants from the AH + quest. :) A couple dozen devil scales, etc, etc, so that you can get the GS stuff quickly. If I hadn't done crafting, I'd be there already... have the shards, just need the materials.








. Mid levels already give you some pretty good stuff and you can get to those rather easily.

Define easily? Crafting sucked away 5 character level's worth of drops and rewards and the only crafted item that I'm using is a +4 Holy silver of Bleed that's only marginally better than a random drop I'd picked up at level 14 and +2 attack goggles.

I keep looking for other places to slot items... "Maybe I can put something on my cloak... no... already have +6 there and can't replicate +6 yet... Upgrade my armor? No, I can't do +5 enhancement yet, and that's the whole point, etc, etc, etc."

It's not until relatively HIGH levels that it becomes marginally interesting, but at this point I'm level 20. I can run content for the best items out there. Pretty soon the couple of things I'm using won't be used at all and will never displace what I have even if I were to get up to crafting 120.







Eh? No, they will design any new raid loot in such ways that we are forced to make difficult choices with our gear layouts, you know, stuff like do I want to use Epic Spectral Gloves with Raven's Sight set for even moar to hit, or do I want to use Epic Gloves of the Claw for awesome healing amp and more damage.


And if Cannith crafting was viable, then it'd be "Do I want Epic Gloves of the Claw, or Feather Falling, Striding 20%, and Jumping +15?" What's so different? Chances are you're STILL not chosing the cannith item, but at least it's not as totally a laughable option.








<edit> Oh, and none of the Marks of favor require you to do any raids at all...

Not sure that you can get 400 favor without doing the raids, can you? OR are you talking about a ridiculously rare drop?

[Xionanx]

The crafting system needs a complete overhaul, period. Will Turbine do it? No. Think long and hard about the history of Turbine and flawed/incomplete in game systems.
Collectibles - We were promised that "one day" we could use them to do something usefull.... still waiting
Stone of Change - Was supposed to be a "crafting" system that used those collectibles... still waiting
SoS armor crafting - Took them what.. 4 years before they finally made it so you can see the effects on the runes after YEARS of players complaining.
So on and so forth.

I dont know who or why Turbine developers seem dead set on implementing poor systems and then never changing them... but its what they do, we should all be used to it by now and expect it.

I really wish they had used the idea I proposed for crafting almost 2 years ago:

A. Find random drop item
B. Strip either the "Prefix" "Suffix" or "+" from the item, destroying the item in the process
C. Buy a "MASTERWORK" weapon from one of the many vendors already in game who sell them.
D. Apply the "prefix" or "Suffix" you stripped off the old item onto the new item.
E. Repeat to add "+" "Suffix" and "Prefix".

No LEVELING involved
No GRINDING for mats
No need for a special feat
You can only move what you find, making item hunting for specific prefix's and suffix's still worthwhile.

[LOOON375]

Your crafting XP should be BTA not BTC. That I can go with and is why I haven't even tried to start crafting.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

The crafting system needs a complete overhaul, period. Will Turbine do it? No. Think long and hard about the history of Turbine and flawed/incomplete in game systems.
Collectibles - We were promised that "one day" we could use them to do something usefull.... still waiting
Stone of Change - Was supposed to be a "crafting" system that used those collectibles... still waiting
SoS armor crafting - Took them what.. 4 years before they finally made it so you can see the effects on the runes after YEARS of players complaining.
So on and so forth.


You forgot about a couple of years of players asking Turbine to have some form of Green Steel deconstruction. But .... nope.

[Grimdiegn]

Unfortunately I have to agree. I'm not a fan of the crafting system as it stands. To much waste in both time and resources. I stopped after hitting 50 lvls each during beta. I know not making some items will "gimp" a char, but I just can't put in the time needed standing in a lag fest.

[MadDruid]

I agree the system is majorly flawed, I would prefer a system that requires more componants per item but gives you much more craft xp per item. To go with this I'd also like the option to deconstruct multi items at once so you dont have to click click click this would probebly mean losing the option of choosing the type of essence u get but if it means I can deconstruct ten items at once and saves on tedium I can live with that.

and why shards anyway? it adds unneccesary complexity....could they not give us a system where u just choose the prefix and suffix and + from a list and it tells you what essences u need and crafting lvl and if u got the reqs its one click to accept.

[Viisari]

For the Vale they're THE raid loot that people are doing the raid for. Call it what you like.

They also drop from several other places, so using large scales for *ONE* shard, a very powerful shard, is not unreasonable at all. A +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane is a better devil beater than min II is. Lit II is only better if you have an artificier cast silver weapons on it. And those crafted devil beaters are much cheaper too than making two min II's, you can't always rely on having an artifier around, so it's cheaper to make Lit II for trash beating and a seperate devil beater for bosses.


Yes. And I can buy enough of them with cash that except for 4 Shards, I have a top notch GS item. How is that "challenging?" Barring the end fights, you can have a tier 2 GS item that's pretty trivial to get.

Well sure, if you want to use several million plat for just one shroud item go right ahead, though unless you're some old geezer (which you really don't seem to be) who's been around since the start, it's unlikely you have enough plat (or other valuables) lying around to just buy your shroud gear.


Why is it outrageous to be able to craft something equivilent to Tier 2 GS again? Or even something that I get as a named from from one of the Orchards of the Macbre quests (ie. Temple of Vol, etc.. not abbot) Boots of the Innocent... Belt of Contemplation (or something like that.) 3+ effects make Cannith gear just look sad.

Because Cannith crafting is not here to replace raid gear. It's not designed for that, you want it to do something that it was at no point designed to do. What you CAN do with is build items for specific purposes, or items with effects that are rare or non-existant from other sources, or they are otherwise just extremely difficult to acquire, you know, like vampirism.


I never said "bound to account." I said "raid loot" ie. things you get from a raid.

Otherwise good, but large scales aren't exclusive to shroud, I'd actually go as far as to say that if you run eDA daily you'll end up getting more of them from there than from shroud. They also drop from Shavarath quests.

So actually, there is currently no loot used in Cannith crafting that you can only acquire from a raid.


Not sure that you can get 400 favor without doing the raids, can you? OR are you talking about a ridiculously rare drop?

The raids? Only Silver Flame needs 400 favor, and there's only one raid there. And no, you don't need to run it, just run everything else on elite.

For Yugoloth you need 3 of the quests on elite and one on hard if I remember right.

Cannith is quests on elite.

So no raids.

Basically, the issue you have with Cannith crafting, is that you want it to be something it is not, and was never designed to be. It was never supposed to replace any raid loot, the idea was to allow us to craft us items that could in theory come out of the RNG, and they've even added all kinds of stuff that isn't included in random loot, like vampirism, dodge bonuses etc.

And in my opinion, it's very good for that, I get to craft all kinds of items that would be ridiculously rare if they were just random loot drops. Plus unlike with raid gear, if I roll a new toon I can immediately craft all kinds of shiny stuff for it, for raid loot I'd have to run the raids for several months if I'm unlucky.

<edit>



It's not until relatively HIGH levels that it becomes marginally interesting, but at this point I'm level 20. I can run content for the best items out there. Pretty soon the couple of things I'm using won't be used at all and will never displace what I have even if I were to get up to crafting 120.


Firstly, no, if anyone happens to be screening who gets into any difficult raid, you're not on that list. You need better gear before you're ready for the more difficult content in this game. These days there's not much room for gimps in places like eChrono, eVoN6, eDQ2 and especially not the new raids, even on normal. Incidentaly, those are the places where the best gear in this game drops, but your cleric is nowhere near ready to run them, your hp pool is very low, you have no fortification, your wisdom is low, you have no spell point items etc.

Just because you've capped doesn't mean you're ready for difficult stuff, and cannith crafting is one of the things that helps you to get ready for that. Getting raid loot you want can easily take 40 completions or even more if you're unlucky, in that time you can by casually leveling your crafting get to very high levels. Unless MyDDO is horribly outdated (though it says last update was today...), you have pretty close to zero raiding experience in this game, let alone endgame content experience, getting the good stuff isn't anywhere near as easy as you're making it out to be, and while you're getting that stuff, Cannith crafting is a great help.

And actually, most of the good stuff in crafting is on the lower levels, like holy, banes, greater focuses weren't probably too high (not sure about that one), immunities aren't high either iirc, it's only the really good or really specialized stuff that's on the high levels.

[wyndzen]

Just because you've capped doesn't mean you're ready for difficult stuff, and cannith crafting is one of the things that helps you to get ready for that. Getting raid loot you want can easily take 40 completions or even more if you're unlucky, in that time you can by casually leveling your crafting get to very high levels. Unless MyDDO is horribly outdated (though it says last update was today...), you have pretty close to zero raiding experience in this game, let alone endgame content experience, getting the good stuff isn't anywhere near as easy as you're making it out to be, and while you're getting that stuff, Cannith crafting is a great help.

And actually, most of the good stuff in crafting is on the lower levels, like holy, banes, greater focuses weren't probably too high (not sure about that one), immunities aren't high either iirc, it's only the really good or really specialized stuff that's on the high levels.

Agree. Just to be helpful to anybody who isn't doing Cannith crafting because they don't think it is worth it, Cannith crafting is a HUGE plus to nearly any char's power, and it is ultimately easier and less effort, in my opinion, than getting most raid loot.

Even if you use Can Crafting for just 2 major items, such as an adamantine vic gcb and silver holy geob, I believe that those do FAR FAR more dam than a Min2. Damage has to be more than 10 higher per swing, in general. That is like 2 1/2 epic claw sets, or 5 shintao sets, or 10 monk past lives (yeah I know they stack max 3, of course). I say this just so you know that even if not fun, the power is probably worth the investment.

People also seem to not fully realize about guild augment slots, either. 20 stacking hps, and/or 160 stacking mana, on an item that could have something like gr necro focus and heavy fort, or 6 dex and 5 resistance, or 6 cha and 13 concentration or balance. Or you can put 2 dodge on one trinket and 4 hit on another, and switch for epics. Maybe when you get 3 parts of the abishai set you may run out of room, but for the many months that is taking you to make, your char is much stronger.

Somebody mentioned that Boots of Innocent are much better than what you can craft. Not sure about that. I have several pairs of Innos, but they are min lvl 11. At min lvl 9 you can have 5 resist on boots with a large slot giving you 20 hps or 160 mana.

[kcru]

you have pretty close to zero raiding experience in this game, let alone endgame content experience, getting the good stuff isn't anywhere near as easy as you're making it out to be, and while you're getting that stuff, Cannith crafting is a great help.


5 vale completions down, a hound of xoriat. Just got flagged for Lord of Blades, still have more flagging to do for abbot and ToD.

Somehow people got end-game gear without cannith. And I can't seem to find room for any singifigant amount of cannith gear in my equipment as the cannith craftable gear is inferior to named items. I'll have 40 vales done long before I could craft a greater bane weapon. How is it supposed to be a great help?


I'm saying that Cannith was flawed design from the get go. If it was only intended to remove randomization factors, then it's WAAAAY too expensive to level. The only justification for the expense is if you can make items comparable to named loot that you'd pull out of a chest. Doesn't have to be "raid loot", just good loot with 3-5 elements or loot that lets me consolidate multiple slots into a single slot.

Until such time as that happens, cannith crafting is good for outfitting my level 10 character. By the time that character hits level 16, probably will have very little cannith gear as named drops and end-chain rewards replace them.

Cannith was billed as "in development." I'm waiting for the development that makes it worthwhile. So far, in my appraisal, it's not.





And actually, most of the good stuff in crafting is on the lower levels, like holy, banes, greater focuses weren't probably too high (not sure about that one), immunities aren't high either iirc, it's only the really good or really specialized stuff that's on the high levels.

It's the specialized stuff that you aren't likely to just run across in a chest, quest reward, or on the AH/vendor.


Holy was level 40 to hit if I recall.. I know I was working a long time on divine levels trying to get there. No one makes goblinoid banes,etc... outsider, dragon, construct, and undead are the only ones useful and those are higher than holy. Greater Focus is higher yet. +1 DC wasn't bad, but finding an item to give +1 DC isn't hard at all... I got a random drop that has +1 Enchantment, +1 Conjuration, and +x repair a couple of weeks ago... that's an item that can't be replicated in Cannith crafting even though it's "random."


So, money down the tubes and all... not too bitter, but won't be developing it much further until adjustments are made to make it useful to me. They did just introduce the -2 ML shards, so there's always a chance that more is in the horizon. We'll wait and see.

[Viisari]

5 vale completions down, a hound of xoriat. Just got flagged for Lord of Blades, still have more flagging to do for abbot and ToD.

Yes, that's amounts to pretty much zero end game experience.


Somehow people got end-game gear without cannith. And I can't seem to find room for any singifigant amount of cannith gear in my equipment as the cannith craftable gear is inferior to named items. I'll have 40 vales done long before I could craft a greater bane weapon. How is it supposed to be a great help?

Nobody was implying that you *need* cannith crafting for anything, it merely makes obtaining some items easier. And do you really have any idea how long it'll take you to do shroud 40 times?



I'm saying that Cannith was flawed design from the get go. If it was only intended to remove randomization factors, then it's WAAAAY too expensive to level. The only justification for the expense is if you can make items comparable to named loot that you'd pull out of a chest. Doesn't have to be "raid loot", just good loot with 3-5 elements.

It's flawed in your opinion, yet I know tons of people who've gotten much use out of it (myself included), even for end game gear, there are some effects you can't get from named loot, like bracers with greater conju focus. Sure, leveling it is expensive, but once you have the levels you never have to do it again. With other loot you have to farm for it, with Cannith once you've got the levels you can basically craft any gear you happen to need at your leisure.


Cannith was billed as "in development." I'm waiting for the development that makes it worthwhile. So far, in my appraisal, it's not.

Well there are plenty of people who have deemed it worth it to level to levels well over 100, pity you don't see the benefits in it.


It's the specialized stuff that you aren't likely to just run across in a chest, quest reward, or on the AH/vendor.

Yes, and for that reason it's so awesome we can now craft that stuff, before you could, if you were lucky, find it in AH, but for ridiculous prices.


So, money down the tubes and all... not too bitter, but won't be developing it much further until adjustments are made to make it useful to me. They did just introduce the -2 ML shards, so there's always a chance that more is in the horizon. We'll wait and see.

Again, that's your choice, and just because you don't find it worthwhile currently doesn't mean others don't, I'm quite happy with the stuff I've been able to craft, and I know plenty of people who are likewise happy with it.

Sure my two main characters only use cannith crafted weapons when they're capped, but that's because they've got tons of epic and raid loot which is superior to most cannith crafted stuff. Just like it should be. You haven't run epics so you have absolutely no clue how difficult some of the epic gear can be to obtain, and you haven't really done much raiding either so you have no clue how long it can take to get all the raid gear you want.

I said it before and I will say it again, high levels of cannith crafting are not something you'll just get, you have to work for them, and when you do you can get quite nice stuff out of it. And then nice thing about is that it's pretty much a one time investment, once you've got your levels, nobody is taking them away from you.

You think that the whole premise was flawed, well, I don't, I think it's working quite nicely currently and see no reason to change the basic idea behind it.

[Ague]

How about this to assist in making crafting a wee bit more user friendly. Enable the shard machine to automatically convert greater essences to lessers and vice versa... there is nothing more annoying than being on a crafting roll and running out of lessers when I've got over a hundred of the greater counterparts sitting in my bag... so i have to run over to the merchant and spend time switching...

i do buy crafting xp pots from time to time (if I have tons of stuff to craft and get rid of), and they don't last all that long... spending even 2 minutes having to rework my essences sucks because i have the pot running... save the merchant for buying materials and converting one essence into another (i.e. arcane to body...)

:eek:just an idea...:eek:

[GoMeansGreen]

eliminate greater/lesser distinction... just essenses

one step at a time

it is a time waster... like a coin-eater, old school arcade games like 'gauntlet', 'tekken'

or...

it is a meditative interlude (except for the ridiculous noise the machines make)

leveling is stupid, anyways... whatever... grindgrind... just make it cost more money for better stuff

epic crafting (different tiers of crafting)
-like chrono gear... sets... make your own 'set', completely from scratch, not preset recipies

that would be interesting

regarding sorting the list... you are supposed to memorize the list and what ingredients you need, etc.

it is completely optional, for when you can't find something in the ah, or your alt doesn't want to grind for it

it should be class based... warriors don't need to have the ability to make wizard stuff, unless they are also wizards, and you should only be able to make stuff based on your level, stuff you can actually use/equip

#1, change the stupid noise the machines make... reminds me of facebook games (bleh!)

[chung_kuel]

Just wanting to clear up a misconception about the true cost of levelling. My primary crafter is nearing the 150 mark in all 3 categories - this has been hideously expensive.

On the other hand my brother only wants to be able to make BTA stuff. I recently asssisted him in grinding/levelling his crafter.

He only needs to achieve level 90 as at that level he can attempt to make any shard he may desire. He has not used any % boosters and only the 1 free potion of greater crafting.

He has almost made it to about level 80 in all 3 categories now and will achieve level 90 with one more grinding seessions. To achieve this has taken 3x half hour grinding sessions and approximately 2 million plat worth of essences will have been used by the time we have finished. This expense has been offset though by selling items crafted along the way and about half a million of this has been recouped.

The addtion of arrows/bolts in U11 has dramatically reduced the cost of grinding initial levels (he was able to get to 40 something divine on just the spare law essences I had laying around) and the comparatively small cost to get to levels capable of making whatever you desire (about the same as a T3 GS item and a lot less work to achieve) is highly worthwhile.

[kcru]

Nobody was implying that you *need* cannith crafting for anything, it merely makes obtaining some items easier. And do you really have any idea how long it'll take you to do shroud 40 times?


About 8 times longer than it's taken me so far? Do you have any idea how long it will take me to get to skill level 100? :) Assuming you don't have a huge bankroll just sitting there waiting to buy and grind essences, it will take many months of questing/decon/questing/decon based on what I've seen so far. Maybe I'm just not a grinding machine like some people, but levelling crafting takes forever, and it's only at the top end where it becomes interesting.


If it offered increased flexibility, that's a different issue... ability to get Heavy Fort not on armor? Yeah, might be worthwhile. Healing Lore on a ring? Sure. As is, it just replaces looking on the AH. And while the AH prices might be "ridiculous", it's much lower than the cumulative costs of levelling crafting.


For an item or two? eh. Maybe eventually when I have nothing better to spend money on.

[Viisari]

Do you have any idea how long it will take me to get to skill level 100? :) Assuming you don't have a huge bankroll just sitting there waiting to buy and grind essences, it will take many months of questing/decon/questing/decon. For an item or two? eh.

Yes, it will take less time than running any raid in the game 40 times. Much less.

Item or two you say? My TR is currently using 7 cannith crafted items, most of them are so good that if I didn't have anything better I'd still use them when capped. That's not counting all the weapons I've made and will make. I think you said something about Boots of the Innocent at some point? I'm currently wearing Boots of Resistance +5, with a large guild slot for +20hp and a minimum level of 7. You don't get stuff like that anywhere else.

A friend made a Superior Stability item yesterday. Minimum level 5. 5. Can be lowered to ML 3. Resistance & protection +6 at level 3 is so powerful it's not even funny, and it's not bad when capped either. Unless you have something better. Like raid loot, which the system was not designed to replace, and in my opinion should *NEVER* go to that direction.

Just because you lack imagination and don't have the patience to get some levels doesn't make it a bad system, get over it.

[kcru]

Yes, it will take less time than running any raid in the game 40 times. Much less.

Item or two you say? My TR is currently using 7 cannith crafted items, most of them are so good that if I didn't have anything better I'd still use them when capped.

Here we go with the twink arguement again... I really though we'd moved past this.

"IF I DIDN"T HAVE ANYTHING BETTER" Well yeah.. of course you will. But you WILL have better things when you're capped so most of those items are likely to sit in your bank, waiting for your next TR.






That's not counting all the weapons I've made and will make. I think you said something about Boots of the Innocent at some point? I'm currently wearing Boots of Resistance +5, with a large guild slot for +20hp and a minimum level of 7. You don't get stuff like that anywhere else.


That presupposes that I can use a large guild slot. I'm also not level 7.




Just because you lack imagination and don't have the patience to get some levels doesn't make it a bad system, get over it.

And i'm not worried about outfitting a low level character. Your experiance is not everyone. Frankly, I doubt that it's most people. This thread was about how crafting wasn't fun and my postings added that it's also not really worthwhile. I am expressing why this is so FOR ME. You're NOT going to convince me that I'm wrong. If other people are in my shoes, they can read why I don't see the point, and if it saves them time, effort, and plat then that was why I posted. The fact that you think Cannith is the greatest thing since sliced bread is rather irrelevant to my posting.

I don't have anything else to add and won't bother posting on the thread again. This doesn't mean that "you win" the arguement, just noting that there's nothing left to say. We've both said the same thing 4 times now and it's obvious that we're just going around in circles.

Happy crafting. Maybe I'll buy something from you one day.

[GoMeansGreen]

that it is not true to original old school dnd

wizards made magic items, that is it...

warriors had castles, thieves had guilds... and so on, monks had orders, clerics had churches, druids had groves... wizards had towers... wouldn't you rather have a tower than a craftinghall?

a warrior should be able to make warrior items, but need to take them to a wizard to enchant them, a cleric to bless them, a rogue to poison them, and so on...

just another number crunching whackamole game?