Rogue skills?

[Sealaminx]

ok so building a new Rogue, ive chosen my race and stats.. but what to do about skills?
I see sooo many topics out there about rogues and what builds to do.. but absolutely nothing comprehensive for a new player about how to pick skills and how many points to put into skills :3

any links or advice would be greatly appreciated :)

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Max out:
Open Lock (well, you can get by with less, but you have the skill points, and some few locks require a high score here)
Disable Device
Search
Spot (some people will claim to just memorize the locations instead, but there are a few instances of random traps, and you should max this as a new rogue anyway. if you're comfortable later with memory you can LR it out or skip it on future rogues)
UMD (its a class skill, and its amazingly useful)

Put points into anything else you'd like.
A half dozen points into Jump is useful.
You might be asked to do the swim in Crucible, so having points into Swim (or a good +Swim item) can help here, but isn't necessary. Makes the Shadow Guard tomb a little bit faster as well.
Tumble can be fun: you'll want 1 point here regardless to allow the action of tumbling.
Balance is a must have unless you're going Acrobat.

[Chaos000]

So long as you're wearing the highest skill item +3 +5 +7 etc. you shouldn't have any issues with traps.

To compensate for low stats, +int items help... if you put ranks into umd at low levels tote a foxes cunning wand and heroism potions, later levels greater heroism scrolls can be helpful (unless you want to farm the belt from xorian cypher and/or the necklace from bastion of power)

Search is more important than Spot. (if someone dies from the trap you can have an idea there's a trap ahead but if you don't have a high enough modifier for search you won't be able to find the box)

Disable is likely more important than open locks. If your modifier is high enough you will still disable on a roll of a 1 and/or won't blow the box.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Here is a good thread to start with and it has links to others with good information about rogues

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274155&highlight=rogue

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=295525&highlight=rogue

[Sealaminx]

:D awesome, thanks for the help ^_^

[katz]

bluff can be VERY USEFUL.

if you have the points for it, i would say don't neglect it.
or move silent

[rayworks]

A rogue gets 8 skill points every level (plus any INT modifiers and +1 if Human) and you should be able to get full ranks in the important skills with no problems. You basically have a few you need to get to full ranks and some you can spend just a few points on.

Need them full -

UMD - need it for scrolls, wands, etc. One of the best parts of rogue.
Search - gotta find the traps or you can't disable them
Spot - tells you when a trap is near so you can Search for it (some people don't get full spot because they already know where the traps are - prob not a good thing to short if you don't know where they are)
Disable Device - well, yeah, if you wanna disable the traps you find

Can take less than full -

Hide - if you solo a lot and want to sneak around and kill stuff, get some. If you party up a lot, you probably won't use it as much.
Move Silently - goes with Hide. They are added together to get an aggregate score. If you increase Hide at all, also increase this
(would note that Hide and Move Silently tend to work well at lower levels but as you advance the monsters tend to see you anyway)
Open Lock - you can short this a little since locks won't blow up in your face on a 1 - I would still try to get full ranks here just because I hate trying to pick a lock a dozen times before I get it.
Jump - get a couple here, but anything over 10 is unnecessary (there are spells and items that will increase your jump)
Balance - yes, you need this so you can get back up faster when you get knocked down (and you will get knocked down) (I would put any leftover points here)
Tumble - most builds only need 1 rank of it. More if you're an acrobat toon.
Diplomacy and Bluff - I used Bluff once. Yeah, once. If you solo a lot Bluff can be useful, but in most parties you never get a chance to use it. Diplomacy can be useful though.
Listen - I never spent any points there, don't think it hurt anything not to.

Wouldn't waste a point -

Swim - probably the most unnecessary skill in the game
Heal - 2nd to swim
Repair - tied with Heal (unless you're a Mechanic build and then you'll want a couple here)

[Sealaminx]

:) thanks.. I chose all my skills.. now for feats.. and can only choose 1 so im thinking of going for weapon proficiency, is that wise? Or would I be better off going for something else?

EDIT* nevermind >.< just realised I get proficiency in rapiers already lol

[WirelessJoe]

This is how I play my rogue, I like a high INT so I have plenty of points to spend.

My only "for sure" max outs are Disable Device and Search.

UMD is also required, especially with the wand/scroll mastry enhancements. I highly recommend being able to wield heal, GH, raise dead, etc. scrolls, buff wands, etc.

Almost as required to do "rogue things" are Hide, Move Silently, and Balance. You cant get any sneak damage if you're flat on your back, or if you get spotted by mobs easily. Next come Open Lock and Spot. Open Lock doesn't need to be maxed, as you auto-succeed on a 20. Spot can be maxed if you're new, but doesn't have to be if you've run things a few times and know where the boxes are. The only exception is the new Schemes of the enemy, which (as far as I know) has the only randomly-placed spottable items in game.


Skills like Jump have a maximum; any point over 40 is wasted. So if you know you're going to be able to slot a +jump item, you can take some of those points and put them somewhere else, like Diplomacy, which is handy for shedding aggro in parties and bypassing some hard fights. Bluff is also good, but I like Diplomacy for the dual purpose.

Finally, if you're a TR+++ or somehow have any skill points to spend after all that, I like Listen and Concentration. Concentration is good when you're UMD'ing scrolls.

[katz]

ok, let me start again. what skills you take to some degree depend on what kind of rogue you plan to build. MAX points in UMD, search, spot, and disable are no question. open lock if you can manage it. put at least 1 point into tumble. here is where things start to differ.

if you want to go assassin, take bluff, hide and move silent. being sneaky is slow, and takes skill, but it is very useful when used properly. you can sneak up to most mobs and assassinate them before they know you are there (note, you cannot sneak around spiders and most scorpions, nor can you assassinate most undead). bluff can be used to single pull, or dump agro off yourself so you can get backstab damage again, or even assassinate something if you're fast (bluff, hide, assassinate)

if you want to go mechanic repair is moderately useful. but again, bluff can help you shed aggro. what's better? hitting something for small damage while it's facing you, or killing it fast when it's back is to you? ^_^

if you want to go acrobat tumble is your friend. i unfortunately don't know much about acrobats, perhaps someone can fill in more?

and just to mess with your minds, even intimidate is a class skill for a rogue. :D

[katz]

...now For Feats..

TOUGHNESS

your future pugs will thank you

[Sealaminx]

:D thanks everyone for the help ~waves the newb flag high~ fingers crossed I wont be asking more later hehe

[katz]

no please, ask ^_^ asking is good. someone will answer :D

[dkyle]

Almost as required to do "rogue things" are Hide, Move Silently, and Balance. You cant get any sneak damage if you're flat on your back, or if you get spotted by mobs easily.

Yes on Balance, no on Hide/Move Silently. You don't need those things to get sneak damage. You only need them to sneak around and avoid being noticed. You don't even need them to assassinate. As long as you don't have aggro, and are in "sneak" mode, you can use the AssassinII's Assassinate ability. One useful method is to jump towards the enemy, hit Sneak in the air, and use Assassinate as you land, then cancel Sneak.

And even for sneaking around, enemies frequently don't have very good spot/listen. And Invisibility (clicky, or UMD'd wand) obviates the need for Hide.

[WirelessJoe]

Yes on Balance, no on Hide/Move Silently. You don't need those things to get sneak damage. You only need them to sneak around and avoid being noticed. You don't even need them to assassinate. As long as you don't have aggro, and are in "sneak" mode, you can use the AssassinII's Assassinate ability. One useful method is to jump towards the enemy, hit Sneak in the air, and use Assassinate as you land, then cancel Sneak.

And even for sneaking around, enemies frequently don't have very good spot/listen. And Invisibility (clicky, or UMD'd wand) obviates the need for Hide.

My playstyle uses hide and move silently to sneak past mobs to get to the casters in back, or just bypass them completely. I mentioned sneak damage because you don't get any if you're detected.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The solo / teaming distinction alters the value of different skills by quite a bit.

Spot goes up in its value quite a bit when you primarily solo; even if you know the location of every trap in the game, the ability to spot hidden mobs will save you from quite a few unpleasant surprises, and lead to you taking a lot less damage.

Also, bluff is much more valuable to a soloing rogue, while diplomacy is much more valuable to a rogue that regularly operates in teams.

Bluff affects one mob, allowing single mob pulls, which is very helpful when soloing. It stops the accumulation of aggro for the mob on which you use it, but does not shed aggro already generated; thus, it is not as effective for dumping aggro as diplomacy. But, bluff does make mobs susceptible to it temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks, even if they don't switch their aggro to allies or pets, which is the other primary gain from using bluff.

Diplomacy sheds aggro from multiple mobs at one time (an AOE aggro dump), moving you temporarily to the bottom of the aggro priority list. Dumping aggro on others allows you free sneak attacks, while on teams; on a related note, if you take the "subtle backstabbing" enhancements, you can do even better at avoiding aggro, while on teams.

However, when soloing, you're usually the only thing a mob can target, which means you can't dump aggro, by using diplomacy; thus, when soloing you can't make a mob vulnerable to a sneak attack, by using diplomacy, which brings the value of diplomacy down to almost zero, when soloing.

At least, this is my understanding of these two skills, and if I'm wrong then I hope (and believe) that a more experienced player will correct my errors.

[CThruTheEgo]

For a new rogue, must have skills are: spot, search, disable device, open locks, UMD

I say max all of those because rogues get plenty of skill points to be able to max them, and as a new rogue, you will have very little trouble with any of these skills as long as you keep them each maxed. After your first life, you will learn how to maximize these and cut corners, as well as what upper limits you actually need for each of them throughout the game. Then you can lower them a bit. But on a new rogue, max these for ease of trap skills.

As others have said, some in balance and jump. Full ranks in a skill is 23 ranks. You can split this and put 10 points into jump and 13 into balance, this is enough for both.

Hide/move silently are not required to get sneak attack damage. Sneak attack damage is obtained whenever you don't have agro, meaning you don't have the mobs attention. If you let others rush in first and take agro, then you can run to whichever mob you want right in plain sight, drop into stealth mode and assassinate, then drop out of stealth and start swinging at the next closest mob getting your sneak attack damage. Sneaking around during combat takes a long time, even with the speed enhancements. You will do much more dps if you can learn to utilize your party members agro and simply run from mob to mob in plain sight. If you are caught one-on-one with a mob, bluff is invaluable. Hide/move silently are nice for some quest objectives and stealth missions are a great challenge.

Regarding bluff/diplo, EnjoyTheJourney's analysis is exactly correct. Rogues get so many skills though, take both for the versatility and for the few quest objectives where these skills are useful.

All that being said, if your a human 32 point build starting with 14 int, you'll get 11 full skills: spot, search, disable, open locks, UMD, hide, move silently, bluff, diplomacy, concentration (for UMDing scrolls), then split balance/jump as stated above. What else do you really need?

Regarding feats, for a max dps assassin: twf, imp twf, gr twf, imp crit: slash, power attack, proficiency: khopesh, toughness, 1 extra if human (maybe skill focus: UMD, or a 2nd toughness). For your bonus rogue feats: improved evasion, opportunist, skill master X2. At end game you wont use your will save because you will have ways to bypass them altogether, so slippery mind becomes obsolete. Defensive roll is one of those abilities that gives you a boost when your low on health, which its better to avoid getting there in the first place. As far as crippling strike, when a mobs stat reaches 0, it goes into a helpless state, meaning it takes 50% more damage from all sources. BUT, if your strength based, most mobs will be dead before they become helpless anyway; and if your dex based, most mobs will also be dead by then, but if they're not, they will be in another few swings. So it also seems a little useless to me.

Hope that helps. Good luck and have fun. Don't be afraid to ask for more help. Rogues can be very versatile and fun, but a bit tricky to master at first.

[nibel]

Open Lock doesn't need to be maxed, as you auto-succeed on a 20.

You do not always succeed with a 20. Many people priorize Disable and Search because both are all or nothing skills (Search you need to reach the mark, and disable you mess things up if you blow up the box rolling 5 points lower than DC), while Open Lock you have the full dice range to try.

So, with (lets say) 60 disable, if you try to disable any DC 66 or higher box, you are risking to blow up the box, but if you have 60 OL, you can open even DC 80 locks with a bit of patience (to roll a 20).

As for feats, rogues dont have much to play around. Toughness at 1, TWF at 3 or 6, ITWF at 9, Improved Critical at 12, Greater TWF at 15, and 2 feats to play around (at 18 and 3 or 6). Khopesh proficiecy, power attack, weapon finesse, oversized TWF, skill focus UMD, and an extra toughness or two, are all valid choices.

[Uska]

These skills are the most important some others are nice to have but not absolutely required
must have for sure
1. Search cant find the trap cant disarm it

2. Disable device

the following are the nice to have if you have the points
3. UMD

4. OPen lock

5. Spot

anything else you might decide to have such as

6. Diplomacy

7. Bluff

8. tumble

9. whatever

[DarkAlchemist]

Tell you what my level 14 trapmonkey rogue failed on an open door and on an open lock 4-6 times in Chains of Flame on Elite. I finally got them but that was when the group said I would never get them as they are the hardest in the game to open. I dunno about that but the chest was a DC of ~51 and the door was ~58 that lead to the chest. Thank goodness I had raised my OL (I have no +OL item unlike DD) because the door to the chest I had to roll an 18 to open (16 + 40 fail but 18 + 40 was CLICK!).

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I do notice a few not mentioning balance or jump. I find them both very handy in combat; you can't fight while knocked down, and it's sometimes very helpful to be able to jump over all the melee fighters to get to that spellcaster in the back.

Everybody's mileage may vary, of course. But, with rogues having quite a few skill points anyways, I'd want at least some points in both jump and balance.

[Uska]

I do notice a few not mentioning balance or jump. I find them both very handy in combat; you can't fight while knocked down, and it's sometimes very helpful to be able to jump over all the melee fighters to get to that spellcaster in the back.

Everybody's mileage may vary, of course. But, with rogues having quite a few skill points anyways, I'd want at least some points in both jump and balance.

if you got the points a few in jump and some in balance are fun and for the first level of the rogue I usually put 4 in both since you usually have more skill points then you know what to do with.

[Mercureal]

For what it's worth, back on the Open Lock question, you can get the vast majority of locks in the game without putting max skill points into OL. Here's a quick overview of what you could have at level 10 with very little difficulty:

Level 10 Character Open Lock Skill

- 7 ranks (4 at creation, plus 1 every other level up to 7)
- 6 from +4 Thieves Tools (available for purchase at the Free Agent vendor once you have 150 favour)
- 5 from 20 Dex (which you should have by level 10 with the stat gear available and Rogue enhancements)
- 1 from Voice of the Master trinket from Delera's Tomb
- 2 from Heroism (potion or clickie item)
- 3 from rogue/ranger/human skill boost enhancement
- 7 from Open Locks skill boost item

= 31 base, plus results of d20 roll
= 32-52 OL ability

That on it's own is enough for most locks in the game, and that can easily be made higher simply with various other buffs and pieces of equipment.