Should 1h vs. 2h farming cost the same?

[etelan]

I'm not sure if this discussion has already been had, but its always seemed strange to me that THF builds have it so much easier in the gearing up department. If the new raids take 20-30 completions to build your weapons they cost 40-60 completions to build for a TWF or a S&B. If shroud takes 20 for lit2 it costs 40 runs. Want to use the Brigand's Cutlass? Double your time. Dual Epic Chaosblades? May as well give up now and TR as a barb.

Suggestion
-All crafting recipes for 1h weapons and shields cost at most 75% of the material cost of their 2h counterparts
-All 1h item drops (seals, scrolls, shards) have at least 50% higher drop rate than their 2h counterparts

Ideally, farming costs should be relative to the size and weight of an item. It should be cheaper to craft a finessable simple weapon like a dagger than to craft a khopesh. The current system was easier to accept when it was just limited to shroud, but now that crafting has exploded...

EDIT:
When determining the cost of two weapons within the same class some care has to be taken. The end result should be that when crafting a dps weapon, not a caster item, weapons with lower base damage and crit profiles should be cheaper.

Lots of replies here, so to clearly break this into two discussions:
Topic A) Breaking up costs between weapon classes. Why is s&b and twf exactly twice as expensive as thf, unarmed?
Topic B) Breaking up costs within a weapon class. Why are greatclubs the same cost as greataxes?

[dkyle]

I'd rather they just made sure the extra cost was worth it. TWF should have a clear advantage in single-target DPS, but it doesn't. I say, restore 100% off-hand procs with GTWF, and make doublestrike apply to both hands.

[somenewnoob]

My main is a twf.....and yes it's a huge grind to have all the weapons you need........but this is still a horrible idea.

[Hendrik]

Ever wish you could 'un-read' what you have just read?

:confused:

[Cyr]

Once upon a time there was a compelling advantage to TWF when it came to dps. This made the extra feat sacrifices and gearing up time a non-issue. Sadly the developers decided that THF, handwraps, and every other style needed to be so close together dps wise that you would be a fool to go with the style that cost more build resources and time to gear up if you were starting a new toon.

As for the OP's suggestion...Shrug why not. We have what we have and it seems unlikely the developers will change it anytime in the reasonable future.

[etelan]

I'd rather they just made sure the extra cost was worth it. TWF should have a clear advantage in single-target DPS, but it doesn't. I say, restore 100% off-hand procs with GTWF, and make doublestrike apply to both hands.

I don't think we will ever see a day when TWF has a clear advantage over a FB with an epic SoS. This needs another solution.

[Shade]

I'd rather they just made sure the extra cost was worth it. TWF should have a clear advantage in single-target DPS, but it doesn't. I say, restore 100% off-hand procs with GTWF, and make doublestrike apply to both hands.

I've never seen any verified/clear testing that says that doubletrike doesn't apply to both hands already. Infact ive seen some evidence to the opposite.

And yea I don't really agree with that in general.

TWF has other advantages then DPS:
Increased blocking DR
Ways to increase AC
More hits per second means weapons with good secondary effects str sapping, vorpal, disrupt, cursepewing, paralyzing etc, are more effective
Two weapon slots means twice as many bonus effects. Especially useful on epic weapons where you dont need to break DR, can slot 2 stats of your choice (And while some of the better THF epics do have 2 slots, not all of them do)

DPS is THE #1 concen in DDO, so if they put two handed too far behind, the imbalance is too harsh and the fun of the game is reduced. They should be VERY close in single target, and thats exactly where they are now. Atm THF tends to be superior at lvl1-6, while TWF tends to win at 7-20 except in the most extreme cases where the THF player has the maximum gear/stats in the game, and even then its within a very small margin.

So while TWF could get a boost, it should be in other areas:
EG:
-Combat tactics should be un-nerfed, TWF should get back there double stun/trip chances. (As should THF, but at a lower proc rate then TWF)
-More interesting and powerful weaposn with special effects should be added/improved to make non pure-DPS a better option.

[etelan]

My main is a twf.....and yes it's a huge grind to have all the weapons you need........but this is still a horrible idea.

I just tossed out the first suggestion that came to my head. I'm all ears, but I have yet to see someone post another.

[somenewnoob]

I just tossed out the first suggestion that came to my head. I'm all ears, but I have yet to see someone post another.

My suggestion is to leave it alone.

[dkyle]

I don't think we will ever see a day when TWF has a clear advantage over a FB with an epic SoS. This needs another solution.

Your suggestion seems far more farfetched to me than a buff to TWF reversing the U5 nerfs. Admittedly, my suggestion isn't likely either.

I'm not sure I understand why people are so derogatory to your suggestion, though. It makes plenty of sense, it just attacks the problem in a direction I don't like. I'd rather make the differences TWF has be worth something, than try to make TWF the same as THF. Do people just not see the problem with TWF costing twice as much as THF, and not having compelling advantages, except for Rogues?

[etelan]

DPS is THE #1 concen in DDO, so if they put two handed too far behind, the imbalance is too harsh and the fun of the game is reduced. They should be VERY close in single target, and thats exactly where they are now. Atm THF tends to be superior at lvl1-6, while TWF tends to win at 7-20 except in the most extreme cases where the THF player has the maximum gear/stats in the game, and even then its within a very small margin.

I agree with this. Which leads me back to the original question of why is TWF exactly twice as expensive to grind for?

[Dolphious]

I don't actually support the idea because it would almost certainly be implemented in a way to increase the grind for 2HF rather than decrease it for 2WF, but I don't see why people are being so nasty about it. It doesn't seem crazy that a large 2 hander that does vastly more damage (on it's own) than a 1 hander should cost more in mats.

[grodon9999]

Don't forget, with TWFing we now have twice as many changes to NOT get our crits confirmed against U11 bosses :)

THFing only catches up with an ESoS (all things being equal) which is a pain in the nuts to get and not always situationally ideal.

[etelan]

I don't actually support the idea because it would almost certainly be implemented in a way to increase the grind for 2HF rather than decrease it for 2WF, but I don't see why people are being so nasty about it. It doesn't seem crazy that a large 2 hander that does vastly more damage (on it's own) than a 1 hander should cost the same in mats.

Because 60 raids is very different from 30 raids.

[voodoogroves]

So while TWF could get a boost, it should be in other areas:
EG:
-Combat tactics should be un-nerfed, TWF should get back there double stun/trip chances. (As should THF, but at a lower proc rate then TWF)
-More interesting and powerful weaposn with special effects should be added/improved to make non pure-DPS a better option.

I'd like to see glancing blows not just proc weapon effects but also stun/trip/etc. for THF

[Dolphious]

Because 60 raids is very different from 30 raids.

Whops, I meant to say the opposite. Edited.

[Bodic]

Uhm I see it as this epic item should be even in drop chance. Adjusting for 1 handed weapons and shield would impact all epic items not just weapons. So you decrease Mchain Torc Sstore for the sake of an easier greenblade than whirlwind. uhm No.

as to GS production costs I get a lit2 and rad2 vs lit2 the juice IS worth the Sqeeze.

sans alchemical 1 earth3 & 1 air3 is better than 1 air3.

So my statement is flat out no changes required. they will bee dropping a fix soon and it may well increase that drops on alchemical as they admitted 30 days grind per weapon was not intended.

[Dolphious]

I've never seen any verified/clear testing that says that doubletrike doesn't apply to both hands already. Infact ive seen some evidence to the opposite.

And yea I don't really agree with that in general.

TWF has other advantages then DPS:
Increased blocking DR
Ways to increase AC
More hits per second means weapons with good secondary effects str sapping, vorpal, disrupt, cursepewing, paralyzing etc, are more effective
Two weapon slots means twice as many bonus effects. Especially useful on epic weapons where you dont need to break DR, can slot 2 stats of your choice (And while some of the better THF epics do have 2 slots, not all of them do)

DPS is THE #1 concen in DDO, so if they put two handed too far behind, the imbalance is too harsh and the fun of the game is reduced. They should be VERY close in single target, and thats exactly where they are now. Atm THF tends to be superior at lvl1-6, while TWF tends to win at 7-20 except in the most extreme cases where the THF player has the maximum gear/stats in the game, and even then its within a very small margin.

So while TWF could get a boost, it should be in other areas:
EG:
-Combat tactics should be un-nerfed, TWF should get back there double stun/trip chances. (As should THF, but at a lower proc rate then TWF)
-More interesting and powerful weaposn with special effects should be added/improved to make non pure-DPS a better option.

Translation: I oppose anything that would create a reason to make a melee other than a 2HF barbarian under any circumstance. Don't worry Shade, no one interested in DPS maximization makes anything other than a barbarian now, and the're no reason to think there is any chance of that changing. You win! Shade 1, game balance 0.

[MrLarone]

aside from DPS isn't one of the benifits of TWF the ability to have multiple diffent effects in play... not sure what a high end example would be but i know cursed and paralyse isn't something a THF can't do mid level...

yes TWF takes twice as long to grind for but it's not like your half as effective (other than in you head if you're of a particular mindset) whilst you make your second weapon...

or am i being dense?

[Yvonnel-1]

/headshake NOT handshake from me

[Khanyth]

No.

No.

And no.

How hard is it to understand that if want 2 of something, you have to work twice as hard to get it?
How hard is it to understand the concequences of the choice when you first started up your character?

2nd worst idea ever.

[dkyle]

I've never seen any verified/clear testing that says that doubletrike doesn't apply to both hands already. Infact ive seen some evidence to the opposite.

I'd be interested in seeing any such evidence, but as far as I can tell, the preponderance of publicly available information suggests that doublestrike is main-hand only.


TWF has other advantages then DPS:
Increased blocking DR
Ways to increase AC
More hits per second means weapons with good secondary effects str sapping, vorpal, disrupt, cursepewing, paralyzing etc, are more effective
Two weapon slots means twice as many bonus effects. Especially useful on epic weapons where you dont need to break DR, can slot 2 stats of your choice (And while some of the better THF epics do have 2 slots, not all of them do)

Compared to the AoE DPS THF gets, that's all meaningless BS. Maybe if they completely changed the game to make those other things worth a ****. Dual Vorpals/disruptions used to mean something, but not any more. But as you've said, DDO is not a single-target game. AoE DPS means something.


DPS is THE #1 concen in DDO, so if they put two handed too far behind, the imbalance is too harsh and the fun of the game is reduced.

Seems to me choosing between all-out, expensive, maximum single-target, and a moderate reduction in single-target DPS in exchange for AoE DPS, and cheaper gear, is an interesting choice. Interesting choices are fun.


-Combat tactics should be un-nerfed, TWF should get back there double stun/trip chances. (As should THF, but at a lower proc rate then TWF)
-More interesting and powerful weaposn with special effects should be added/improved to make non pure-DPS a better option.

The tactics would be great. Tactics in general would need to see a major boost in usefulness to make this a worthwhile advantage, though. Even on my Fighter/Monk with a 50 DC Stunning Fist, I've found it less useful than I'd like.

As for special effects, I'll believe it when I see it. The Devs have not shown any inclination towards making anything but DPS count, and in fact have given greater and greater emphasis to it over time.

[etelan]

How hard is it to understand that if want 2 of something, you have to work twice as hard to get it?

How hard is it to understand that it's more expensive to create a weapon with 15 pounds of metal than it is to create a weapon with 1 pound of metal?


2nd worst idea ever.

Lol, what's the worst?

[elraido]

Ever wish you could 'un-read' what you have just read?

:confused:

Take the red crayon, put it in your nose until you forget

[Yvonnel-1]

Lol, what's the worst?



im sure it has to do with PvP and some guy named same as a lvl3 spell (divine and arcane) that removes ongoing spells from the target^^

[Dolphious]

No.

No.

And no.

How hard is it to understand that if want 2 of something, you have to work twice as hard to get it?
How hard is it to understand the concequences of the choice when you first started up your character?

2nd worst idea ever.

Sure two item Xs should cost roughly twice one of item X, but that's not what he's talking about. Two apples don't cost twice that of one car.

[Chai]

I'm not sure if this discussion has already been had, but its always seemed strange to me that THF builds have it so much easier in the gearing up department. If the new raids take 20-30 completions to build your weapons they cost 40-60 completions to build for a TWF or a S&B. If shroud takes 20 for lit2 it costs 40 runs. Want to use the Brigand's Cutlass? Double your time. Dual Epic Chaosblades? May as well give up now and TR as a barb.

Suggestion
-All crafting recipes for 1h weapons and shields cost at most 75% of the material cost of their 2h counterparts
-All 1h item drops (seals, scrolls, shards) have at least 50% higher drop rate than their 2h counterparts

Ideally, farming costs should be relative to the size and weight of an item. It should be cheaper to craft a finessable simple weapon like a dagger than to craft a khopesh. The current system was easier to accept when it was just limited to shroud, but now that crafting has exploded...

No. Mother of god no. I hear this arguement alot when people debate twf -vs- thf, and I dont believe the "twice as many ingredients" stance.

Not counting bows and quivers, a THF has 13 slots to gear up while a TWF has 14. Last time I checked, 13x2 =/= 14. :p

And "crafting exploding" is advantageous, because stuff can be farmed side by side rather than having to wait 3 days to gather more ingredients for the only good way to make gear.

[Shade]

Translation: I oppose anything

You win at not reading.

I made no comment on the OP. I'm not really oppose to it, infact i've thought of similar solutions. I think the concept is good, but needs to be thought out more carefully as everything isn't plain cut and dry twice as hard or +50% as hrad to get. EG: Top DPS for TWF is dual lit2. top for THF is esos.. ESoS is massively harder to get then dual lit2.. So at least in terms of ultimately endgame, its tougher on the THF side of things atm. I mean yea epic chaosblade is retardedly hard o get, but its also not such a huge step above anything else that you have any troubles using lit2s instead. And i'd argue epic xuum is more then twice as hard as chasoblades as well.

On things like greensteel, yea some more difficulty on the THF side of things like having large horns be rare would be fine imo. But changing systems that have been engrained into the playerbase with thousands upon thousands of GS crafted is going to be unpopular, no matter what.

[Shade]

I'd be interested in seeing any such evidence, but as far as I can tell, the preponderance of publicly available information suggests that doublestrike is main-hand only.

Well thats what they devs said was intended. What actaully happens ingame vs whats intended rarely match up.

When they first added doublestrike, I do recall Eurytrikos showing me a video of him doing 4 touch of deaths in 1 strike.. Since then i dunno.

I do play my TWF bbn from time to time , and often get double strike via bard songs but anecdotal testing is just impossible with it since the numbers fly by so fast.. Someone would need to do a frame by frame analysys.

[etelan]

Not counting bows and quivers, a THF has 13 slots to gear up while a TWF has 14. Last time I checked, 13x2 =/= 14. :p

Only 1 of those 13 slots is available in the new raids which is why it does equal twice the grind. Also, it will always be the slot most worth farming for.

[Chai]

Only 1 of those 13 slots is available in the new raids which is why it does equal twice the grind. Also, it will always be the slot most worth farming for.

Somehow farming 2x lit2 khopesh is 2x as long as farming 1x eSOS? I know ALOT of people with 2x lit2 khopesh. They are far more numerous than players with eSOS.

Sorry, no it does NOT = twice as much.

[etelan]

I think the concept is good, but needs to be thought out more carefully as everything isn't plain cut and dry twice as hard or +50% as hrad to get.

Completely agreed. If only there was a place where one could post discussions so that members of the community could work together to think an idea out carefully. (not calling out names)

[Shade]

Only 1 of those 13 slots is available in the new raids which is why it does equal twice the grind. Also, it will always be the slot most worth farming for.

For casters sticks I think it makes perfect sense. Twice the grind is about twice the power for them.

For melee it's not twice the power. But it is twice the epic red slots vs a two hander, that is more power.

Not to mention the ability to get say both seeker +10, and stunning +10 or other strong combos.

So it shouldn't be half the cost.

If they seperate caster and melee tiers, and had caster tiers at full costs, and melee tiers at 75% cost, that would seem balanced.

[Cyr]

Somehow farming 2x lit2 khopesh is 2x as long as farming 1x eSOS? I know ALOT of people with 2x lit2 khopesh.

Sorry, no it does NOT = twice as much.

You are right. In the case of epic chaos blades it is more then twice.

Compare similar to similar. Lit 2 greataxe to 2 Lit 2 Khopeshes. Or in the new case 2 Alchemical Khophes to 1 Alchemical Greataxe.

[dkyle]

Well thats what they devs said was intended. What actaully happens ingame vs whats intended rarely match up.

Sure, but dev statements are at least something to support doublestrike being main-hand only. There's more to support that belief than the contrary. If you want to argue that TWF is fine because doublestrike applies to off-hand, you'd need to show some evidence that it does, indeed, apply.


When they first added doublestrike, I do recall Eurytrikos showing me a video of him doing 4 touch of deaths in 1 strike.. Since then i dunno.

I'm well aware of unarmed glitchiness with special attacks shortly after U5. I know that I sometimes got triple strikes out of my special attacks even when I shouldn't have any doublestrike at all (in Fire stance, for example). And it was more than 4 attacks; people were getting 5x ToDs. So that was a separate issue that, as far as I know, has been fixed.

[etelan]

Somehow farming 2x lit2 khopesh is 2x as long as farming 1x eSOS? I know ALOT of people with 2x lit2 khopesh. They are far more numerous than players with eSOS.

Sorry, no it does NOT = twice as much.

lit2 is a ML12 weapon. This is about farming an equilavant weapon only. Alchemical vs. Alchemical. Epic 2h vs epic 1h from the same quest. The fact that lit2 is the best 1h weapon is a seperate issue and IMO is broken.

[Tholar]

Somehow farming 2x lit2 khopesh is 2x as long as farming 1x eSOS? I know ALOT of people with 2x lit2 khopesh. They are far more numerous than players with eSOS.

Sorry, no it does NOT = twice as much.

I don't think it is fair to compare the grind for epic items and green steel in this instance.

I believe his intent may have been to compare making two green steel weapons vs one green steel weapon.

[Shade]

You are right. In the case of epic chaos blades it is more then twice.

Compare similar to similar. Lit 2 greataxe to 2 Lit 2 Khopeshes. Or in the new case 2 Alchemical Khophes to 1 Alchemical Greataxe.

similar to similar?
How about the two handers from the same raid?

Xuum or Whirlwind.

Xuum is insanely hard to get, id rate it as harder to get then 2 epic chaosblades. I think i know about 10 players who dual wield epic chaoslbades, another dozen who have 1. How many xuums are there on khyber? under 5 id bet.

Imbalances exist all over, they aren't always on the TWF side of things.

Greensteel i can kinda agree on.. But I can also say that any changes would result in so much outlash that they are not worth it.

[Dolphious]

No. Mother of god no. I hear this arguement alot when people debate twf -vs- thf, and I dont believe the "twice as many ingredients" stance.

Not counting bows and quivers, a THF has 13 slots to gear up while a TWF has 14. Last time I checked, 13x2 =/= 14. :p

And "crafting exploding" is advantageous, because stuff can be farmed side by side rather than having to wait 3 days to gather more ingredients for the only good way to make gear.

no but 12 +(1*2) =14 which would be the appropriate math, he's not saying 2HF should have to pay twice the mats for their gloves.

[edit] I'd note again that I'm pretty agnostic about the merits of the OP's idea, I just think it's elicited some strangely idiotic responses.

[etelan]

similar to similar?
How about the two handers from the same raid?

Xuum or Whirlwind.

Xuum is insanely hard to get, id rate it as harder to get then 2 epic chaosblades. I think i know about 10 players who dual wield epic chaoslbades, another dozen who have 1. How many xuums are there on khyber? under 5 id bet.

I wouldn't say that Xuum is from the same raid. Xuum is an outdoor item which has a different drop rate from DQ2 items. It would be more like comparing the Xuum drop rate with Sting. So the question is more like how many players do you know that dual wield epic sting? IMO the outdoor DQ epic items are broken.

[Cyr]

Greensteel i can kinda agree on.. But I can also say that any changes would result in so much outlash that they are not worth it.

It's hard to judge how people would respond. Clearly making THF components more rare would result in a backlash, but making TWF components more common would probably be less incendary.

[Chai]

You are right. In the case of epic chaos blades it is more then twice.

Compare similar to similar. Lit 2 greataxe to 2 Lit 2 Khopeshes. Or in the new case 2 Alchemical Khophes to 1 Alchemical Greataxe.

Ok, fine, then lets make sure that the same toon with a lit2 great ax and 3xTHF feats does the same damage as they would with 2x lit2 khopesh with 3x twf feats. Then you can have your double cost THF crafting. :p

You want to compare similar to similar, make them similar in contribution as well.

The eSOS -vs- 2x lit2 khopesh IS similar to similar comparison damage wise.

[maddmatt70]

The OP is correct in terms of the new raid. It is much easier to gear a thf vs. a twf or one hander and shield with the new raid materials. There is in game not much advantage to being a twf player in comparison to thf so what the devs should do is make two handers harder to make then one hander/shields from the new raid. The cost should be 75% or 50% less to make a one hander or shield then a two hander from the new raid. I would not worry about other raids/quests loot because the balance is better in those such as making an SOS vs. two ls2 one handers in terms of cost.

[LeLoric]

I've never seen any verified/clear testing that says that doubletrike doesn't apply to both hands already. Infact ive seen some evidence to the opposite.



Double strike does not work on offhand weapons. Hours of testing different double strike comparisons all using an epic smallbalde in offhand trying to confirm stacking etc for the different types and not once has the doublestrike come off the smallblade hit.

[etelan]

You want to compare similar to similar, make them similar in contribution as well.

The eSOS -vs- 2x lit2 khopesh IS similar to similar comparison damage wise.

Sure, but then what do we do when Turbine adds new content where the same level 1h, s&b, and 2h items actually are balanced? Should we continue to ask for unbalanced weapons? In that case, I want my epic 1hander that I can dual wield to have clear advantage over the eSoS. Go ahead and make it about as difficult to get each hand and give it a boost of a least 50% over the SoS DPS when using two of them.

[etelan]

The OP is correct in terms of the new raid. It is much easier to gear a thf vs. a twf or one hander and shield with the new raid materials. There is in game not much advantage to being a twf player in comparison to thf so what the devs should do is make two handers harder to make then one hander/shields from the new raid. The cost should be 75% or 50% less to make a one hander or shield then a two hander from the new raid. I would not worry about other raids/quests loot because the balance is better in those such as making an SOS vs. two ls2 one handers in terms of cost.

Thanks Norg. Definitely the U11 content is the primary culprit here. The issue exists in all content, but it is less clear what the proper balance is when comparing weapons across different quests.

[Chai]

Sure, but then what do we do when Turbine adds new content where the same level 1h, s&b, and 2h items actually are balanced? Should we continue to ask for unbalanced weapons? In that case, I want my epic 1hander that I can dual wield to have clear advantage over the eSoS. Go ahead and make it about as difficult to get each hand and give it a boost of a least 50% over the SoS DPS when using two of them.

Thats silly, since 13 to 14 is not a 50% increase in farming. The new raid may be 1 to 2 slots, but unless the rest of our toons are butt naked riding zebras, we dont farm 50% more for TWF toons.

[etelan]

Thats silly, since 13 to 14 is not a 50% increase in farming. The new raid may be 1 to 2 slots, but unless the rest of our toons are butt naked riding zebras, we dont farm 50% more for TWF toons.

Agreed, TWF does not farm all content in the game twice. TWF farms some content in the game twice. Some of that content is a real grind though.

[Tholar]

Thats silly, since 13 to 14 is not a 50% increase in farming. The new raid may be 1 to 2 slots, but unless the rest of our toons are butt naked riding zebras, we dont farm 50% more for TWF toons.

I think they are trying to compare weapons, maybe count shield since it takes a weapon slot. Not all the other items that a character wears.

[Adrian99]

Double strike does not work on offhand weapons. Hours of testing different double strike comparisons all using an epic smallbalde in offhand trying to confirm stacking etc for the different types and not once has the doublestrike come off the smallblade hit.

I am grateful that you cared enough to perform hours of testing. But I am also interested to know your theory on how my monk is able to throw a single ToD and get 4 hits out of it if double-strike does not work for offhand strikes.

[Dolphious]

I am grateful that you cared enough to perform hours of testing. But I am also interested to know your theory on how my monk is able to throw a single ToD and get 4 hits out of it if double-strike does not work for offhand strikes.

That's certainly interesting. I suppose it's possible there is a bug in monk's favor ;)

[Moonsickle]

These are just the ingredients for LitII GS Khopesh [x2] vs LitII GS Great Sword
Shock/Good Burst/Shocking Blast w/ Lightning Strike Guard


I removed Powers Cells as some can be bought and other can use +6/+8 weapons to be refilled and are not necessarily farmed... but I'm sure both TWF & THF could farm the vendor standing next to the Altar of Fecundity equally well.


Khopesh x 2 <--------------> Great Sword
------------------------ <--------------> ------------------------
4 Bitterscrub fungus <--------------> 1 Bitterscrub fungus
6 Chipmunk funk <--------------> 2 Chipmunk funk
4 Glistening pebbles <--------------> 3 Glistening pebbles
4 Green brier twig <--------------> 2 Green brier twig
2 Lily petal <--------------> 2 Lily petal
2 Locus husk <--------------> 2 Locus husk
2 Stone battle <--------------> 1 Stone battle
2 Stone foresight <--------------> 1 Stone foresight
2 Stone might <--------------> 1 Stone might
2 Stone strategy <--------------> 1 Stone strategy
2 Stone victory <--------------> 1 Stone victory

4 Small devil scales <--------------> 2 Small devil scales
4 Small glowing arrowhead <--------------> 2 Small glowing arrowhead
4 Small gnawed bone <--------------> 2 Small gnawed bone
2 Small infernal chain <--------------> 1 Small infernal chain
4 Small sulfurous stone <--------------> 2 Small sulfurous stone
6 Small twisted shrapnel <--------------> 3 Small twisted shrapnel
2 Shard of power <--------------> 1 Shard of power


6 Medium devil scales <--------------> 3 Medium devil scales
4 Medium glowing arrowhead <--------------> 2 Medium glowing arrowhead
4 Medium gnawed bone <--------------> 2 Medium gnawed bone
2 Medium infernal chain <--------------> 1 Medium infernal chain
4 Medium sulfurous stone <--------------> 2 Medium sulfurous stone
4 Medium twisted shrapnel <--------------> 2 Medium twisted shrapnel
2 Shard of great power <--------------> 1 Shard of great power


10 Large devil scales <--------------> 5 Large devil scales
8 Large glowing arrowhead <--------------> 4 Large glowing arrowhead
8 Large gnawed bone <--------------> 4 Large gnawed bone
4 Large infernal chain <--------------> 2 Large infernal chain
8 Large sulfurous stone <--------------> 4 Large sulfurous stone
10 Large twisted shrapnel <--------------> 5 Large twisted shrapnel
4 Shard of supreme power <--------------> 2 Shard of supreme power
------------------------------------ <--------------> ----------------------------------
136 items <--------------> 67 items

since you need 69 more ingredients for 2 LitII Khopesh over the LitII Great Sword... I think the theory of needing twice as many ingredients is blown and thus you would not need to farm twice as long to get them either...

I'd go with the 13 to 14 isn't 50% theory... although I'm a little cloudy on it though.. is that slots vs ingredients = farming items???



Add to all this... where's my Epic Khopesh??? I feel neglected not being able to spend 2 years of farming to get one... let alone getting two... and not to mention farming the 10 reds to buy the 2nd scroll when I finally lose my patience with farming it.

I apologize for the the jumble of ingredients... was in nice straight columns my message box 8(

[BlackSteel]

with the exception of barbarians and some half orc multiclass variants, almost everyone else does much better DPS with TWF than with THF when you exclude the eSoS.

doesnt help that the endgame has become over saturated with barbarians atm.

[Bunker]

Players choose to wield 1 weapon or 2. The Shroud has been out for years and it has never been an issue making 2 weapons over 1. Yes, I understand that the game changes, dps tables change, ect ect ect.....But if you want to duel wield, you have known since lvl 1 that you would be equipping 2 weapons all the way to end game content.

So get out there and farm.

/cheers

-Bunk

[justagame]

I don't see the current problem. TWF is considerably better than THF (ignoring one weapon that a miniscule percentage of the gaming population has).

Secondly, a huge amount of the base benefit, greater @ of attacks, can be had with a mere +5 weapon in the offhand, something trivial to acquire. With that, you get all your divine mights, bard bonuses, divine favor, STR bonus, kensai bonus, PA bonus, weapon spec, what have you, on that weapon. And it costs nothing.

Everything else that can be crafted or added to a looted weapon-- holy damage, lightning strikes, vorpal, stat damage, you name it -- are thingsw you get twice the benefit of. Twice the lightning strikes. Twice the chance to vorpal or disrupt. Twice the holy damage. You SHOULD have to grind twice as much to find/make those things.

[oradafu]

I don't see the current problem. TWF is considerably better than THF (ignoring one weapon that a miniscule percentage of the gaming population has).

Secondly, a huge amount of the base benefit, greater @ of attacks, can be had with a mere +5 weapon in the offhand, something trivial to acquire. With that, you get all your divine mights, bard bonuses, divine favor, STR bonus, kensai bonus, PA bonus, weapon spec, what have you, on that weapon. And it costs nothing.

Everything else that can be crafted or added to a looted weapon-- holy damage, lightning strikes, vorpal, stat damage, you name it -- are thingsw you get twice the benefit of. Twice the lightning strikes. Twice the chance to vorpal or disrupt. Twice the holy damage. You SHOULD have to grind twice as much to find/make those things.

^ This.

A moderately geared TWF will have twice the chances of effects on their weapons going off than a THF. I might be in the minority, but I would like to see named two-handed weapons get a minimum of three effects, since most TWF usually have a minimum of four effects that can procc. Heck, a TWF wielding two Epic Chimera's Fangs has a chance of 8 or 9 effects proccing before it gets slotted with a Red Crystal (Destruction won't stack, and I'm unsure if Sunder works on both hands), something that I believe is completely unheard of for any two handed weapon in the game.

[~Glimrac]

A moderately geared TWF will have twice the chances of effects on their weapons going off than a THF.

So, twice the damage = twice the farming. Status quo makes sense to me.

[dkyle]

So, twice the damage = twice the farming. Status quo makes sense to me.

Completely absurd... TWF is nowhere near twice as much damage as THF.

The double weapon effects help TWF, but it's just one part of damage. It helps make up THF's superior base damage, but it by no means makes it clearly superior.

The above three posts are vastly over-exaggerating the value of "double the weapon effects".

[Alex301]

The new damage boosts do not affect extra weapon affects, which is more beneficial for THF, and off hand attacks only receive half the extra damage from your strength as well.

The lead twf has on thf isn't as great as you might think.

[oradafu]

Completely absurd... TWF is nowhere near twice as much damage as THF.

The double weapon effects help TWF, but it's just one part of damage. It helps make up THF's superior base damage, but it by no means makes it clearly superior.

The above three posts are vastly over-exaggerating the value of "double the weapon effects".

I believe only two of the three above posts were stating that TWF receives usually twice, sometimes four to five times, the benefit of THF when it comes to different effects from weapons...not necessarily more damage. But let's look at the new Alchemical weapons at Tier III... A THF will have 7 different effects and a red slot, while a TWF will have the possibility of 14 different effects and two red slots. To me that seems about balanced for the costs of making the weapons.

[etelan]

So, twice the damage = twice the farming. Status quo makes sense to me.

Since when does twice the effects (which is not even true) = twice the damage? I don't want to completely derail here to talk about THF vs TWF dps, but anyone who thinks that TWF dps is clearly greater than THF (-eSoS) at cap is comparing a subpar THF build to a max TWF build. Twice the damage??? Really??? Someone better go tell a dev that half-orcs need more 2h damage bonuses because the game balance is busted.

[etelan]

But let's look at the new Alchemical weapons at Tier III... A THF will have 7 different effects and a red slot, while a TWF will have the possibility of 14 different effects and two red slots.

Again, DPS is king in this game and x2 effects is not even close to the same as x2 damage. Let's say that because you can get double the effects by making things helpless you are contributing much more to the overall party dps. It's too bad then that none of that matters on a boss mob, because trash is called trash for a reason. The devs just gave a giant boost to raid boss hp and your not going to make that up by getting lots of cool weapons effects that they are all immune to.

[Ugumagre]

How hard is it to understand that it's more expensive to create a weapon with 15 pounds of metal than it is to create a weapon with 1 pound of metal?

Lol, what's the worst?

Two handed swords weighted normally not more than 5 pounds.

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/weights.htm

[etelan]

Two handed swords weighted normally not more than 5 pounds.

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/weights.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons

Greatsword: 8
Greataxe: 12
Dagger: 1

And I'm not asking for 12x less components

[Ugumagre]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons

Greatsword: 8
Greataxe: 12
Dagger: 1

And I'm not asking for 12x less components

Why comparing with a dagger? Why not with a needle?
Longsword weights 4 pounds, not 1 pound.
And after your logic, it is easier / cheaper to craft a samurai sword than to craft a two handed troll maul.

[etelan]

Why comparing with a dagger? Why not with a needle?
Longsword weights 4 pounds, not 1 pound.
And after your logic, it is easier / cheaper to craft a samurai sword than to craft a two handed troll maul.

Compare it with whatever item you like. The OP asks for 75% components. So as long as the 1h weapon you choose is less than 9 pounds it's fair. A katana is made with different materials than a piece of a tree. Compare a longsword and a greatsword if it makes more sense to you that way. I figured most people could read past my hyperbole. Either way I don't expect to ever see a change like this make it into the game, but it would be certainly be interesting if more casual players had an incentive to build on less sought after base items because it was cheaper.

It's no coincidence that the most sought after weapons in DDO are also the heaviest, metal, weapons.

[dkyle]

Compare it with whatever item you like. The OP asks for 75% components. So as long as the 1h weapon you choose is less than 9 pounds it's fair. A katana is made with different materials than a piece of a tree. Compare a longsword and a greatsword if it makes more sense to you that way.

I've been sorta with you, but this is just silly. Heavier weapons do tend to cost more. The base weapons. But the vast majority of the cost is from magic. There's no reason to believe that magic costs should scale with the base weapon's weight.

Or maybe you think magic should scale with weight; whatever, it's lore. Anyone can invent whatever they want there, and there's little reason why any particular person's notion of what the lore is should be "right". That's why lore arguments are largely futile.

Weight is a negligible factor for gameplay, and gameplay is real. Something that can be argued. Your original argument is about gameplay; TWF costing twice as much, but not getting significant benefits. That is a good argument. This weight argument is just fluff.

[Ugumagre]

Compare it with whatever item you like. The OP asks for 75% components. So as long as the 1h weapon you choose is less than 9 pounds it's fair. A katana is made with different materials than a piece of a tree. Compare a longsword and a greatsword if it makes more sense to you that way.

For sure it is fair. I just don´t like it when people state things like "15 pounds to 1 pound" and uses strange logic.
So we come down to the discussion: S&B, TWF, THF, pew-pew.
So there was a time where Vorpal was OP, and if you didn´t have a vorpal you were a gimp, or khopeshes, or great axe, or donowhat. It is changing all the time. I think TWF and THF do extremly good DPS and thats all.

[etelan]

Or maybe you think magic should scale with weight; whatever, it's lore. Anyone can invent whatever they want there, and there's little reason why any particular person's notion of what the lore is should be "right". That's why lore arguments are largely futile.

Sure, anyone can invent whatever they want. Wouldn't it be nice if the devs invented something that was more balanced? Edited above post and added this, "Either way I don't expect to ever see a change like this make it into the game, but it would be certainly be interesting if more casual players had an incentive to build on less sought after base items because it was cheaper."

[etelan]

So there was a time where Vorpal was OP, and if you didn´t have a vorpal you were a gimp, or khopeshes, or great axe, or donowhat. It is changing all the time.

Exactly this, unless battleaxes, longswords, etc... become cheaper to craft than khopeshs and dwarven axes they will always be useless weapons. Keeping in mind this discussion, balancing weapon cost within a particular weapon class, is only half of the discussion. The other half is comparing cost of twf to thf. I would prefer to invite someone who has crafted a lit2 greensteel greatclub than someone who has half the ingredients for a lit2 greensteel greataxe. Granted it will still be referred to as a gimp weapon, but at least casual players or players that have a new toon addiction will find a way to cut out some grind.

[dkyle]

Sure, anyone can invent whatever they want. Wouldn't it be nice if the devs invented something that was more balanced?

Yes, it would be. But it should be for gameplay reasons. My point is that weight is a very weak argument, that distracts from the reasonable argument you made in the OP.


Either way I don't expect to ever see a change like this make it into the game, but it would be certainly be interesting if more casual players had an incentive to build on less sought after base items because it was cheaper.

Maybe. But weight is a pretty poor measure of how "sought-after" a weapon is. Rapiers and Light Hammers weigh the same, for example. And Handwraps weigh very little, but are among the most sought-after weapon types.

[etelan]

Maybe. But weight is a pretty poor measure of how "sought-after" a weapon is. Rapiers and Light Hammers weigh the same, for example. And Handwraps weigh very little, but are among the most sought-after weapon types.

I agree that a fully designed system would need to be more complex than simple item weight. Perhaps the best method is just to create a table per weapon type. I do feel that weight and material type are two influential parameters to create such a table. Rapiers and light hammers being a perfect example of where the material type comes into play. For me, weight was simply a way kick things off. Handwraps should definitively be as expensive as the most expensive 2 hander.

[dkyle]

I agree that a fully designed system would need to be more complex than simple item weight. Perhaps the best method is just to create a table per weapon type. I do feel that weight and material type are the two most influential parameters to create such a table. Rapiers and light hammers being a perfect example of where the material type comes into play. For me, weight was simply a way kick things off.

Both Rapiers and Light Hammers are typically made of steel. Neither weight nor basic material type (steel vs. wood) are significant factors in how useful a weapon is.

If they wanted to make lesser weapon types cheaper, it would basically need to be the Devs judgement. Similar to how Cannith crafting shards are assigned their CL and cost based on how useful the Devs think they are, not any set formula.

However, ultimately I think it's better to improve the lesser-used weapon types, and make them more desirable, than to try to set values to them that scale the cost of crafting them.

[etelan]

However, ultimately I think it's better to improve the lesser-used weapon types, and make them more desirable, than to try to set values to them that scale the cost of crafting them.

There are too many weapons types and not enough ways to make them uniquely useful for this to work. DnD or RL for that matter was never meant for each weapon to be comparable to every other weapon, but that's why things have cost. The basic rules of supply and demand will handle this just fine for all weapon types on the AH, but right now crafting ingredients and chest tables do not care.

[Jay203]

remove GS items :)

[oradafu]

Again, DPS is king in this game and x2 effects is not even close to the same as x2 damage. Let's say that because you can get double the effects by making things helpless you are contributing much more to the overall party dps. It's too bad then that none of that matters on a boss mob, because trash is called trash for a reason. The devs just gave a giant boost to raid boss hp and your not going to make that up by getting lots of cool weapons effects that they are all immune to.

I might be wrong but I don't know of any THF that contains more than one of these effects: Corrosive salt, Disintegration, Lightning strike, Steam, Crushing waves, Incineration. Most of those work on most of the bosses and TWF can use weapons with a chance of two of those effects going off at the same time. You can't tell me that Lightning Strike going off twice as often from a TWF wielding LitIIs or Epic Chimera's Fangs isn't contributing to the DPS of most raid bosses, for example.

[dkyle]

I might be wrong but I don't know of any THF that contains more than one of these effects: Corrosive salt, Disintegration, Lightning strike, Steam, Crushing waves, Incineration. Most of those work on most of the bosses and TWF can use weapons with a chance of two of those effects going off at the same time. You can't tell me that Lightning Strike going off twice as often from a TWF wielding LitIIs or Epic Chimera's Fangs isn't contributing to the DPS of most raid bosses, for example.

Of course it contributes.

But it's just another source of damage. It gets factored into the DPS calculations. And TWF shows little, if any, advantage in DPS vs. THF, even accounting for dual lightning strikes.

TWF gets better mileage out of extra effects, THF gets more out of STR and base damage. Overall, they end up being about the same, as far as single target DPS. And then THF gets AoE DPS, less stat requirements, and better to-hit, while TWF gets a bunch of mostly useless fluff from extra non-DPS effects.

[TBot1234]

Quoted from an earlier post: "Overall, they end up being about the same, as far as single target DPS"

So, is TWF more than a "flavor" thing?

My choice of build might require that I have multiple sets of robes (or armor, or boots...), so does that mean I should get to farm robe ingredients cheaper/faster?

Arcanes can have a legitimate need for two or more green-steel weapons, depending on their build, should we make it easier/cheaper for them to build/farm items?

I just don't see how you can make it easier for one type of character or player to get gear, but not others. That said, perhaps rare/named item drops need to be more balanced throughout the game.

[justagame]

Completely absurd... TWF is nowhere near twice as much damage as THF.

The double weapon effects help TWF, but it's just one part of damage. It helps make up THF's superior base damage, but it by no means makes it clearly superior.

The above three posts are vastly over-exaggerating the value of "double the weapon effects".

You're missing the point. No one is exaggerating the value of weapon effects -- it's that those effects are the only things that actually cost you something. A +5 khopesh doesn't require anything to obtain, and as you point out, you get a lot of value from TWF just by having that.

[dkyle]

Quoted from an earlier post: "Overall, they end up being about the same, as far as single target DPS"

So, is TWF more than a "flavor" thing?

It certainly used to have major advantages over THF. But it got nerfed. I would certainly hope it would be more than a "flavor" option. If it is, it should be fixed.


My choice of build might require that I have multiple sets of robes (or armor, or boots...), so does that mean I should get to farm robe ingredients cheaper/faster?

Very bizarre analogy. Having multiple robes to swap between is nothing like needing an extra weapon to equip.

In order to be as effective as THF, a TWF needs twice as many weapons. That's not true of other gear.


Arcanes can have a legitimate need for two or more green-steel weapons, depending on their build, should we make it easier/cheaper for them to build/farm items?

Arcanes? Green-steel weapons? Waste of larges...

And dual-caster-sticks on an Arcane is very different from TWF vs. THF. For caster sticks, the extra effects are everything. Double effects legitimately does mean double effectiveness, and hence double cost. A single one-handed caster stick is basically as effective as a single two-handed caster staff. This is not the case with TWF. TWF needs both weapon just to be comparable to THF.


I just don't see how you can make it easier for one type of character or player to get gear, but not others. That said, perhaps rare/named item drops need to be more balanced throughout the game.

Well, I don't think it should be cheaper. I'm more interested in making it worth the extra cost.

[dkyle]

You're missing the point. No one is exaggerating the value of weapon effects -- it's that those effects are the only things that actually cost you something. A +5 khopesh doesn't require anything to obtain, and as you point out, you get a lot of value from TWF just by having that.

I don't think I've pointed out anything of the sort.

TWF with a LitII and a plain +5 is as expensive as a THF LitII and horribly gimped in comparison. It's just another way of pointing out the same problem. TWF spending twice as much to be equal in effectiveness, or TWF spending as much while being massively less effective, are the same problem from different perspectives. TWF spends more for a given level of effectiveness. That's a game balance problem.

[etelan]

I might be wrong but I don't know of any THF that contains more than one of these effects: Corrosive salt, Disintegration, Lightning strike, Steam, Crushing waves, Incineration.

Sure. Adding an extra effect helps to bring twf in line with thf. It does not however create a dps advantage anywhere close to the amount of extra grinding it requires. These effects are only a percentage of your dps and unlike the base damage numbers of a big fat axe these numbers can often pop up as immune.

[stille_nacht]

overall i do think it is sorta justified, as TWF does have a pretty good edge over THF in terms of DPS when eSOS and maxed out STR are not in the equation. An average first life TWF ftr will outpds an average first life THF barb by a fair margin, and i think turbine is more geared towards "average" players.

then again, the new crafting lines in cannith are probably not for more average players... so might stand to have a bit of tweaking.

overall im unsure about this one.

[gloopygloop]

Well, I don't think it should be cheaper. I'm more interested in making it worth the extra cost.

Just to add on to what dkyle said here, I don't think that anyone here (especially dkyle) is asking for TWF to do double the DPS that THF does. Just that there be some moderate, measureable DPS advantage to going TWF instead of THF to make up for the extra costs involved.

[countfitz]

I'm a THF, my wife is a TWF, and yeah, it sucks a little more for her, but not noticably. When it's all said and done, it's not even the cost that is the biggest problem for her, but backpack space. I have 4 weapons in my TRs bag, muckbane, a triple pos maul, a Lit II falchion, and a Min II Great Axe. I could dump the Min II to be honest, and be just fine, or Muck, or even both. She has craploads of different weapons, I think 16 in total, in different mix and matches for different situations, all of which are a jumble. She has a magi for SP, some paralyzers, WoP, 1 Lit II, some DR breakers of various sorts, True Chaos of Smiters, etc. etc., 2 mucks, 2 skely beaters. That's the biggest drawback.

[oradafu]

Just to add on to what dkyle said here, I don't think that anyone here (especially dkyle) is asking for TWF to do double the DPS that THF does. Just that there be some moderate, measureable DPS advantage to going TWF instead of THF to make up for the extra costs involved.

However, this thread is about crafting weapons, not the DPS of weapons. I haven't seen a good argument for making the cost of crafting THF weapons more expensive or TWF weapons less expensive. Since all blanks receive the exact same number of effects no matter what the style or type of weapon, I don't see why the grind should be less or more either way. If you want two items (GS, Alchemic, Epic), you should grind double the ingredients of a single item. Maybe the named THF weapon has more effects than the named TWF weapon, but usually it's the named TWF weapon that has more effects on it. But removing Epic and crafted items out of the equation, there shouldn't be an added or reduced cost to either weapons, since you are adding effects to the weapon and the effects will always be twice as many on a TWF weapon than a THF weapon. I could maybe see the argument if THF weapons got three effects per weapon vs the two effects per TWF weapons...but that's not the case currently in the game.

[Dragavon]

I do not agree with the OP at all.

When you make a new melee character you choose either TWF or THF build.

If you choose TWF then you choose the grind. If you don't like the grind choose THF.

You made the choice, don't come crying when you realise you do not like the grind.

[Synnestar35791]

There is a clear dislike by Devs for the single Die weapons, whole weapon classes become a waste simply because the die count isn't fairly matched,
3d6 vs. 1d4 Hmm.
Slash V.s Bludgeon
I totally releate to the complaint.
Ultimately , aperson is going to go higher die damage output, but truly, crafting is even gimped to a degree.
Green Steel still dominates the "I want" list,
Metalline & Aligned crafting level over 60 BTC
the topic is right on.
two handers are the predominate push.
clearly Daggers & the like are just Vendor fodder...

[etelan]

I do not agree with the OP at all.

When you make a new melee character you choose either TWF or THF build.

If you choose TWF then you choose the grind. If you don't like the grind choose THF.

You made the choice, don't come crying when you realise you do not like the grind.

When I choose TWF the most advanced grinding you could do in the entire game is to scroll through the broker NPC inventory. This post is in response to new content enforced onto existing characters. Although I would still favor these changes even for the small percentage of players that knew exactly where they were doing on character creation.

[gloopygloop]

I do not agree with the OP at all.

When you make a new melee character you choose either TWF or THF build.

If you choose TWF then you choose the grind. If you don't like the grind choose THF.

You made the choice, don't come crying when you realise you do not like the grind.

What do you actually get for that grind, though?

When your choices are a) grind more and don't actually get anything for it or b) grind less and get something just as good - then why would anyone choose a) unless they were just duped into that choice?

It's exactly the same problem (in reverse) as when people used to ask why anyone would choose THF when TWF was so obviously the superior DPS choice? And they obviously "fixed" that "problem".

[gloopygloop]

However, this thread is about crafting weapons, not the DPS of weapons.

Actually, this thread is about the disparity in cost/grind between TWF and THF. There are two obvious solutions to that disparity - decrease the cost/grind for TWF or increase the effectiveness. Either solution would be fine with me.

[etelan]

There are two obvious solutions to that disparity - decrease the cost/grind for TWF or increase the effectiveness.

Several players here are asking for increased effectiveness. No offense, but I think the idea that twf should be increased to have a clear and significant advantage over both THF and handwraps (yes, don't forget these have a 1 item cost) is absurd. Such a change would without a doubt and with good reason upset THF users while adjusting item costs down would upset virtually no one.

In fact, looking at the history of handwraps prices on the AH and handwraps as craftable weapons in the game it's easy to see the issue of cost vs effectiveness. If the devs hadn't already said their official goodbyes to the idea with monk then they certainly did when they designed half-orcs. In addition, while 90% of players (down from 99% pre-U11) would just assume abandon S&B on a doorstep such a solution would leave them back at the starting line. Finally, giving a boost to twf would break quest balance.

[dkyle]

Several players here are asking for increased effectiveness. No offense, but I think the idea that twf should be increased to have a clear and significant advantage over both THF and handwraps (yes, don't forget these have a 1 item cost) is absurd.

Why is it absurd? What's absurd about expecting more expensive gearing to produce more effective results?


In fact, looking at the history of handwraps prices on the AH and handwraps as craftable weapons in the game it's easy to see the issue of cost vs effectiveness. If the devs hadn't already said their official goodbyes to the idea with monk then they certainly did when they designed half-orcs.

I honestly don't understand what point you're making here.


In addition, while 90% of players (down from 99% pre-U11) would just assume abandon S&B on a doorstep such a solution would leave them back at the starting line.

S&B should absolutely be made more effective.


Finally, giving a boost to twf would break quest balance.

I doubt it. Was the game broken before U5?

[etelan]

Why is it absurd? What's absurd about expecting more expensive gearing to produce more effective results?

Because large weapons used with two arms should do a lot more damage than a small weapon used with one arm. There are several more whys in this post and the one you quoted. I also added the bit about how one approach would upset half the player base and the other change should not upset anyone.



I honestly don't understand what point you're making here.

Handwraps are the most expensive item on the auction house. Players are willing to pay more for these weapons because it's similar to a buy one get one free TWF deal. In addition, the devs have and will continue to tip-toe around including this weapons as high level base craftable weapons and as epic raid loot for balance reasons. In other words, the devs need a relative cost system for chest and craftable loot to balance handwraps with the results seen on the AH.



I doubt it. Was the game broken before U5?

No, but it has been re-balanced since then and making such a change would break hundreds of character builds created since that time.

[baletraeger]

Life isn't fair or balanced, and neither is DDO. Accept that, and thrive as I do.

[Slorgs]

Why not make it based on the dice and critical multiplier as well? Or the color?

TWF has the advantage that you can have multiple effects in one combat chain. So lightning strike one hand, radiance the other.

S&B is not used because the only thing people care about in this game is DPS due to the absurd HP of mobs. You trade DPS for AC and DR, it is a good trade if you want to survive a prolonged beatdown... BUT...

... quickened mass heal on a single point and the abundance of SP makes most "beat the boss down" situations trivial. There is little need for a single AC/DR tank in any quest. Players choose not to S&B.

A good offense is better than a good defense in most cases in the game and in life as well. In no scenario should S&B become viable by giving a toon AC, DR and DPS... might as well give them spells and songs as well.

Farming two scrolls instead of one, yes, that sucks. My toons need more sp, or more hitdice, or critical multiplier.

It's not fair!!!!

[Philibusta]

I really dont get how people could not understand that when youre talking about enchanting an item, it takes twice as many ingredients to enchant 2 items as it does to enchant 1. The math's pretty simple.

[etelan]

I really dont get how people could not understand that when youre talking about enchanting an item, it takes twice as many ingredients to enchant 2 items as it does to enchant 1. The math's pretty simple.

It's about game balance. One build runs 30 LoB to gear up, another character runs 60 LoB to gear up. The character who ran 60 does equal or lesser dps to the character that ran 30. Also pretty simple math eh?

[etelan]

Why not make it based on the dice and critical multiplier as well? Or the color?

TWF has the advantage that you can have multiple effects in one combat chain. So lightning strike one hand, radiance the other.

These have both been discussed earlier. Dice and crit multiplier are a great way to determine the cost of an item. The 'advantage' of multiple effects is minor for raid boss dps. For some trash mob these effects can be more significant, but trash mobs are hardly worth mentioning when considering dps. If this thread was about trash mob dps I would rather just run exclusively with a group full of spell casting classes.

[Xionanx]

Frankly, I find it hard to care about the poor pitiful 2WF and 2HF DPS when BOW USERS have been screwed for years.:rolleyes:

[etelan]

Frankly, I find it hard to care about the poor pitiful 2WF and 2HF DPS when BOW USERS have been screwed for years.:rolleyes:

Heh, well at least bow users get away with 2h crafting cost. You are definitely correct that there are other balance concerns and this may not be the greatest of them :)

[dkyle]

Because large weapons used with two arms should do a lot more damage than a small weapon used with one arm.

But the issue is TWF, which is two weapons being used together. Shouldn't twice as many attacks (approximately) be quite effective?

And besides, you're giving a lore reason. There's little point arguing that. In gameplay, TWF costs significantly more than THF (and would continue to even with your proposal). More cost should mean more effective.


There are several more whys in this post and the one you quoted. I also added the bit about how one approach would upset half the player base and the other change should not upset anyone.

You're dreaming if you think noone would be upset by one-handers getting a new price reduction.


Handwraps are the most expensive item on the auction house. Players are willing to pay more for these weapons because it's similar to a buy one get one free TWF deal.

Handwraps are special in a lot of ways. For one, they're basically the only real weapon choice for an entire, rather popular, class. They also don't have a GS option, so random ones have a much greater demand.


In addition, the devs have and will continue to tip-toe around including this weapons as high level base craftable weapons and as epic raid loot for balance reasons.

Handwraps are quite potent. Their higher cost/rarity does reflect this. In the case of Monks, TWF has huge advantages over THF, so the cost is justified.


In other words, the devs need a relative cost system for chest and craftable loot to balance handwraps with the results seen on the AH.

If we want to balance crafted items with AH prices, Khopeshes would be more expensive to make than Greataxes, not less. Which is rather the opposite of your OP.


No, but it has been re-balanced since then and making such a change would break hundreds of character builds created since that time.

You're vastly over-exaggerating the effects buffing TWF would have. The game has changed in far more radical ways over its lifetime. Nerfs and buffs come and go. It's a part of the game.

[grodon9999]

It's about game balance. One build runs 30 LoB to gear up, another character runs 60 LoB to gear up. The character who ran 60 does equal or lesser dps to the character that ran 30. Also pretty simple math eh?

Don't forget the 100+ dragons to get an ESoS.

[gloopygloop]

Don't forget the 100+ dragons to get an ESoS.

Yikes. Could you even imagine the epic grind if a useful TWF weapon dropped in VoN?

[Khanyth]

I'm confused...... what is the issue? I'm lost?

1) that TWF should be better than THF because you have two weapons to fight with?
2) that TWFers should be compensated because it takes longer to grind for 2 weapons than 1?
3) something different?


I'm not complaining or attacking; I'm just confused as what the issue is

[Chai]

I still feel that the comparisons need to be "same DPS class comparisons" and not "same raid comparisons" when making this type of decision.

Comparing the farming of say, a lit2 great ax -vs- 2x lit2 khopesh might support those in favor of this suggestion, but it doesnt for me, because a lit2 THF doesnt do the same damage as a lit2 TWF build.

Comparing eSOS farming to 2x lit2 khopesh is a more sound comparison, because they are more similar in DPS class.

If we are going to make it take as long (or similar lengths of time) to farm 1 highest tier alchemical two hander than it would take to farm two highest tier khopesh, then they need to be relatively similar DPS class on relatively similar builds, excepting 3x THF feats for 3x TWF feats. They should be the same level of utility as well.

What isnt being bantered by those in support of this are the clear advantages of having two weapons. I see gripes about the ingredient cost, but I dont see any gripes about being able to have stunning 10 on a weapon that is more powerful than a lit2 in many circumstances, then have a different effect on the other weapon. I dont see any gripes about linear buffs having more benefits to TWF. I dont see any gripes about being able to swap in a utility weapon into the offhand when certain utility is an advantage and lose far less DPS than if a THFer has to swap one in. Take the bad with the good, or build a THF.

More advantages, more time to farm. /shrug. The players arguing these points clearly understand this, which is why they have TWF characters. The points being argued here while many are accurate, are incomplete. A complete understanding of the utilitarian advantages of TWF, along with the fact that Turbine had to create a THF weapon which hits for 5d6 base and has a threat of 18-20 x3 just to COMPARE to the output of lit2 TWF, tells us exactly why its justifiable to keep the ingredient farming rate as it stands now. The alternative is that every alchemical great ax and great sword user should be similar DPS and similar utility as the same alchemical TWF build, excepting 3x THF feats for 3x TWF feats.

[Khanyth]

Agreed.... the different effects on 2 weapons is quite a sound balance for having to grind for mats for 2 weapons.

[dkyle]

I'm confused...... what is the issue? I'm lost?

1) that TWF should be better than THF because you have two weapons to fight with?
2) that TWFers should be compensated because it takes longer to grind for 2 weapons than 1?
3) something different?

1) No. That's lore, and thus largely arbitrary, and inarguable. Some might think a big axe "should" do more damage, some might think more weapons means more attacks and "should" do more damage. From a historical perspective, TWF probably shouldn't even exist as an option, at least not in any way resembling what it is in DDO. But it's a fantasy game, and TWF is cool. The important thing is whether TWF is well designed, in terms of game mechanics.

2) Essentially, yes. If two weapon styles have basically the same effectiveness, yet one costs twice as much, that's a pretty blatant game design problem. And I'm not even sure TWF has the same effectiveness, since THF gets similar single-target DPS, and useful AoE DPS. Whereas TWF gets some marginally useful extra effects.

[etelan]

You're dreaming if you think noone would be upset by one-handers getting a new price reduction.

Let's ask. Everyone read the following bullet points from two future imaginary release notes and answer a few questions.

*TWF (handwraps not included) now grant addition attacks to bring their dps significantly higher than their THF counterparts. This is because TWF is more costly and should therefore be more effective.
---------------------------------
*1-handed melee weapons that drop from the Master Artificer raid now require significantly less components to upgrade. In the future that may be expanded to include other crafting devices such as shroud and cannith.

1) Which would you prefer to see in the release notes?
2) Which seems like it will be most likely to turn players away from the game?
3) Which seems more offensive in a way that will cause a major war on the forums?
4) Which is most likely to cause unforeseen issues in game balance?

The answers seems obvious to me, but I would like to get more opinions.

[etelan]

Comparing eSOS farming to 2x lit2 khopesh is a more sound comparison, because they are more similar in DPS class.

Why is it always a khopesh? Oh yeah, because khopesh is the highest dps option and costs the same ingredients as all the other options. Fail. Comparing from across quests is more complicated and should only be done after the basic foundations are in place. Don't build a skyscaper starting at the 50th floor, because that will cause a serious problem when it comes time to expand the building.

[grodon9999]

Why is it always a khopesh? Oh yeah, because khopesh is the highest dps option and costs the same ingredients as all the other options. Fail. Comparing from across quests is more complicated and should only be done after the basic foundations are in place. Don't build a skyscaper starting at the 50th floor, because that will cause a serious problem when it comes time to expand the building.

it doesn't matter if it's a Khopesh, D-axe, or rapier the cost is the same.

TWFing has many advantages and really there only is 1 ubber THFing weapon. if you don't want to build two of each weapon go THFing, nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you have to be TWFing.

[etelan]

it doesn't matter if it's a Khopesh, D-axe, or rapier the cost is the same.

Sure, but don't you think it would be great for the game if there was a reason for players to use the other dozen weapon types? Don't you get tired of the wall between min/max and gimp?

[etelan]

TWFing has many advantages and really there only is 1 ubber THFing weapon. if you don't want to build two of each weapon go THFing, nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you have to be TWFing.

Well no, but the devs recently just told us all if you want to keep up if you have to work harder than everyone else. I'm okay with a bit of unfairness. The question I have is is there a better way?

[Khanyth]

1) 2) Essentially, yes. If two weapon styles have basically the same effectiveness, yet one costs twice as much, that's a pretty blatant game design problem. And I'm not even sure TWF has the same effectiveness, since THF gets similar single-target DPS, and useful AoE DPS. Whereas TWF gets some marginally useful extra effects.


This is where I'm getting confused again.

By using the 2wf, you are able to equip 2 weapons with 2 different effects... say, a LitII weapon and a Radience Weapon.....
By using the 2hf, you have to make a choice: litII or radience.
That is why it costs more. That is why you get the benefit of two different weapon effects.

Again.... unless I'm missing the boat on this one.

[grodon9999]

Sure, but don't you think it would be great for the game if there was a reason for players to use the other dozen weapon types? Don't you get tired of the wall between min/max and gimp?

Despite the pure BS spread on these forums there is quite a large divide between mini-max and gimp.

[etelan]

This is where I'm getting confused again.

By using the 2wf, you are able to equip 2 weapons with 2 different effects... say, a LitII weapon and a Radience Weapon.....
By using the 2hf, you have to make a choice: litII or radience.
That is why it costs more. That is why you get the benefit of two different weapon effects.

Again.... unless I'm missing the boat on this one.

As discussed several times in this tread x2 effects is not even close to the same as x2 effectiveness. I measure effectiveness by total dps.

[Khanyth]

Sure, but don't you think it would be great for the game if there was a reason for players to use the other dozen weapon types? Don't you get tired of the wall between min/max and gimp?

This I completely agree with.

I'd love to see more class/racial elements/restrictions to the game: dwarves only using Axes and hammers, halfings only 1 handers, Elves only scimitars and falchions, clerics/divines only blunt weapons, monks only handwraps or kuris.... etc etc etc

I know that's a very unpopular opinion, because people love their flavah builds, but hey... I think it's cool

[Chai]

Why is it always a khopesh? Oh yeah, because khopesh is the highest dps option and costs the same ingredients as all the other options. Fail. Comparing from across quests is more complicated and should only be done after the basic foundations are in place. Don't build a skyscaper starting at the 50th floor, because that will cause a serious problem when it comes time to expand the building.

Why is it only eSOS that compares, and everything else falls behind. Your arguement while accurate, is incomplete. Once we see it as a two way street, you begin to understand the merrits of my stance.

If the best of TWF = the best of THF in DPS and utility, id have no issue farming for the same amount of ingredients. I am outlining how this is clearly not the case, and in order to understand the issue, it needs to be seen from every angle. Those in favor of this are only presenting the cons of being TWF. They obviously understand the pros far outweigh the cons, or their character wouldnt be twf, heh.

[Khanyth]

As discussed several times in this tread x2 effects is not even close to the same as x2 effectiveness. I measure effectiveness by total dps.

*shrug*

Some of the best killing machine fighter/barbs I've seen were/are 2 weapon fighters.

I guess I'll just have to disagree with everyone....

[etelan]

Despite the pure BS spread on these forums there is quite a large divide between mini-max and gimp.

Maybe not everyone agrees with me, but I'm pretty tired of seeing the same three weapon types used by every decent level 20 melee. I would gladly take someone that crafted a greensteel greatclub because it meant they could get away with running less shroud. In a lot of quests it's not even a significantly worse off weapon.

[Chai]

Sure, but don't you think it would be great for the game if there was a reason for players to use the other dozen weapon types? Don't you get tired of the wall between min/max and gimp?

Thats not a wall, its a HUGE gray area, larger in size than min max or gimp could occupy. There are some who banter on the forums that if its not the best its gimp, but this is simply not true.

[etelan]

*shrug*

Some of the best killing machine fighter/barbs I've seen were/are 2 weapon fighters.

I guess I'll just have to disagree with everyone....

Can you honestly say they clearly out damage any maxed out THF build?

[Chai]

It's about game balance. One build runs 30 LoB to gear up, another character runs 60 LoB to gear up. The character who ran 60 does equal or lesser dps to the character that ran 30. Also pretty simple math eh?

13 slots -vs- 14 slots. last time I checked 13x2 =/= 14. Math is simple indeed.

How many players have 2 lit2 khopesh -vs- how many have eSOS? It is a fair comparison because it puts both on the same playing field DPS wise.

If I could farm 1x epic alchemical THF weapon and be on par with the DPS and utility of the same build as a TWF (excepting 3x THF feats for 3x TWF feats), then yes, I would say that I should pay the same for 2 TWF weapon as 1 THF weapon. Since this isnt the case, I dont expect to pay just as much.

[grodon9999]

Can you honestly say they clearly out damage any maxed out THF build?

What's the target?

[Khanyth]

Can you honestly say they clearly out damage any maxed out THF build?

I dunno their stats, but they did a fine job of handing out a$$whoopings to every mob, and boss that stood in their way.

[ThePrincipal]

I think twf should do more damage than it does since it requires more gear and more stats (dex/str vs str).

I would like to see more crafting similar to lordsmarch where blade of fury + staff of shadow + 2 marks = TWO vamp fury shortswords

To me adding the additional mark to create a second weapon is a very fair deal to the TWF figther.

I think it would be fair to add more situations where you can make pairs of weapons like long/short sword, heavy/light pick, heavy/light hammer, etc from a single crafting session.

[etelan]

Why is it only eSOS that compares, and everything else falls behind. Your arguement while accurate, is incomplete. Once we see it as a two way street, you begin to understand the merrits of my stance.

Because I believe 'only eSoS that compares' is completely untrue and I don't wish to argue dps of every named weapon in this tread just to show something so simple. I'm sure you can find some threads for that if you like. Even if it was true comparing specific items like this will only resolve the issue with respect to these two weapons which I have no interest in doing. If you want to compare weapons from cross-quest I can give you several examples of imbalance for every example of balance.

[Chai]

How hard is it to understand that it's more expensive to create a weapon with 15 pounds of metal than it is to create a weapon with 1 pound of metal?

2 handed weapons IRL generally are ~5-6 LBS. longswords are generally 4 ish.

The ones I am experienced with are Hanewi forged weapons, which will cut through a roll of carpet diagonally with a simple twist of the waist and downward motion of the arm.

In any case, in D&D its not the amount of steel that matters, but the magical enchantment, which only needs to be placed on one weapon rather than two. You can make a 30 pound greatsword if you want, it only needs to be enchanted once. Price out enchanting a two hander to +5 -vs- enchanting a one hander to +5 in the DMG. They will be equal save for the cost of the base weapon, which may differ by ~10 gold or so. :p

[Chai]

Because I believe 'only eSoS that compares' is completely untrue and I don't wish to argue dps of every named weapon in this tread just to show something so simple. I'm sure you can find some threads for that if you like. Even if it was true comparing specific items like this will only resolve the issue with respect to these two weapons which I have no interest in doing. If you want to compare weapons from cross-quest I can give you several examples of imbalance for every example of balance.

Double lit2 khopesh builds slaughter lit2 greatsword or great ax builds on single target DPS (which is what the min maxers build for). Changing 3x TWF feats to THF feats and equipping a lit2 greatsowrd loses the build considerable single target damage. Its not until the THFer gets an eSOS that they start to compare again. The level of utility of TWF is better as well. We are comparing the best of TWF -vs- the best of THF when we compare eSOS to 2x lit2 khopesh.

[etelan]

13 slots -vs- 14 slots. last time I checked 13x2 =/= 14. Math is simple indeed.

Really? I very clearly mentioned LoB. Think that over again.

[etelan]

Its not until the THFer gets an eSOS that they start to compare again.

I will not argue this in this tread.

[etelan]

I dunno their stats, but they did a fine job of handing out a$$whoopings to every mob, and boss that stood in their way.

Sure, I know lots of badass TWFers too. I love em, but they don't any more than you can get from a maxed out THF and that's perfectly alright with me.

[Philibusta]

It's about game balance. One build runs 30 LoB to gear up, another character runs 60 LoB to gear up. The character who ran 60 does equal or lesser dps to the character that ran 30. Also pretty simple math eh?

No, it's about logic. You want to enchant ONE weapon, you need X amount of ingredients. You want to enchant TWO weapons, you need 2X amount of ingredients.

Sort of like..it takes twice the ingredients to bake TWO pies that takes to bake ONE. Not sure if I can find a simpler way to say it.

[gloopygloop]

No, it's about logic. You want to enchant ONE weapon, you need X amount of ingredients. You want to enchant TWO weapons, you need 2X amount of ingredients.

Sort of like..it takes twice the ingredients to bake TWO pies that takes to bake ONE. Not sure if I can find a simpler way to say it.

And at the end of the process a baker who made two pies can sell twice as many as the baker who baked one pie.

...but in DDO, the baker who bakes one pie can still sell just as much as the baker who made two pies.

[etelan]

What's the target?

This is extremely difficult to answer, but for those interested in the THF vs TWF dps discussion there are plenty of treads with useful data. Try this for example:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

[grodon9999]

This is extremely difficult to answer, but for those interested in the THF vs TWF dps discussion there are plenty of treads with useful data. Try this for example:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

Look at the new one . . . do any of the THFers NOT have an ESoS?

[etelan]

Look at the new one . . . do any of the THFers NOT have an ESoS?

Ummm.... yes? I must not be looking at the same link. I would read you back what my link says, but I promised not to argue it in this thread.

[Philibusta]

And at the end of the process a baker who made two pies can sell twice as many as the baker who baked one pie.

...but in DDO, the baker who bakes one pie can still sell just as much as the baker who made two pies.

*foreheadslap*

I can see that my simple explanation was apparently not simple enough. I cant think of a simpler way to say it.

[gloopygloop]

*foreheadslap*

I can see that my simple explanation was apparently not simple enough. I cant think of a simpler way to say it.

I just think that this is a situation where analogies don't work very well. Any time you try to compare TWF crafting and THF crafting to real world situations, the metaphor is going to fail because TWF crafting and THF crafting honestly don't make a whole lot of sense in DDO the way they are now.

[Chai]

Really? I very clearly mentioned LoB. Think that over again.

When you talk about farming gear to be effective, youre not talking about just LoB, sorry. The "twice as much" arguement doesnt apply. Its actually a ratio of: 14/13 (1.077)

So TWF farms 7.7% more items, not 2x more, to slot out one toon. This is the price for the gain in utility TWF brings to the table alone.

[gloopygloop]

When you talk about farming gear to be effective, youre not talking about just LoB, sorry. The "twice as much" arguement doesnt apply. Its actually a ratio of: 14/13 (1.077)

So TWF farms 7.7% more items, not 2x more, to slot out one toon. This is the price for the gain in utility TWF brings to the table alone.

I don't know if you've noticed, but weapons are often significantly harder to make than accessories/armor with very few exceptions (RoSS in particular).

[etelan]

When you talk about farming gear to be effective, youre not talking about just LoB, sorry. The "twice as much" arguement doesnt apply. Its actually a ratio of: 14/13 (1.077)

I made very clear in a previous post (Pg.3) that there was never a claim to a global 'twice as much'. There is no such argument in this tread. I will gladly agree with you that the non-existent argument doesn't apply. I try hard to choose my battles with existing issues.

[pasterqb]

Finally a thread asking this! I'm been thinking about the required 30 runs per fully upgraded weapon from the new raids and i cant imagine waiting 60 runs to get some good weapons on my TWF toons. Having to spend an extra 2 or 3 months seems a little insane.

Personally i believe there needs to be a change for balancing reasons and not have TWF cost more just cause it does more damage.

-Either Double the cost for making THF(Bad choice IMO cause once you have something changes for the worse are hard to swallow)

-Halve or decrease by a fair amount the Ingredients it takes to make a Single Handed Weapon(Good choice IMO similar to decreasing scale/relic requirements which people loved)

-Increase the cost for making THF BECAUSE it now can have 2 Prefixes or Suffixes(Great Choice cause it even out some of the damage/cost with an actual cause for the increase)

All in all they need to make it easier to obtain the weapons though out of the new raids 60 runs for a pair of weapons is insane. Thinking about making Devil and Demon beaters? Good luck in the next year.

[Philibusta]

2 handed weapons IRL generally are ~5-6 LBS. longswords are generally 4 ish.

The ones I am experienced with are Hanewi forged weapons, which will cut through a roll of carpet diagonally with a simple twist of the waist and downward motion of the arm.

In any case, in D&D its not the amount of steel that matters, but the magical enchantment, which only needs to be placed on one weapon rather than two. You can make a 30 pound greatsword if you want, it only needs to be enchanted once. Price out enchanting a two hander to +5 -vs- enchanting a one hander to +5 in the DMG. They will be equal save for the cost of the base weapon, which may differ by ~10 gold or so. :p

THANK you!! Someone else with some sense. Finally.

[etelan]

Finally a thread asking this! I'm been thinking about the required 30 runs per fully upgraded weapon from the new raids and i cant imagine waiting 60 runs to get some good weapons on my TWF toons. Having to spend an extra 2 or 3 months seems a little insane.

Indeed.