Who put this feat on the Bonus list?

[Alyiakal]

So I was running a Crucible run today, and there was a Warforged Artificer in the group. I'm thinking that's great, because they have so many different ways to heal themselves. Until he drops this gem...

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c320/rtchin/artificerfort.jpg

In disbelief, I hop on the Wiki. Indeed, Improved Fort is listed there as an Arti Bonus feat.

My question is, what kind of cruel minded Dev would allow such a n00b trap to so totally gimp your character? Especially since this is a bonus feat. I realize the person in question is an obvious greenhorn (any meta is better, or heck, even SF:Swim), but why even make this an option?

[CountHenri]

Oh thats just too funny...

Of course now people will say its a WB conspiracy to sell more Lesser Hearts...

[tfangel]

I like how the one guy says "Don't say improved fort..." at about the same time as the other guy says it is. Like he knew what was coming. ;)

I'm far from a leet player, but even i know there are better ones that he could have taken.

[Jendrak]

Hmmmmm......WF arti is self healing so if he wants to heal him self all the time and never get healed by any one else who cares. It's not the newb/noob trap your making it out to be its just different than you would have done it. At least this guy knows enough to tell you before hand.

[Gorbadoc]

How did he get high enough to run Crucible without learning to ask around before taking random feats?

Wait, never mind; there is probably a good explanation, and it probably involves the foolishness of humankind. Old news.

[Qezuzu]

Honestly, improved fort should be removed from the game. It's the one feat that can actually RUIN a character so long as it's owned. SF:Swim is just a wasted feat; Improved fort is just a seriously very really not good idea. The benefits are copied by a mere moderate fort item (available at level 5 or something).

[sirdanile]

Only possible redemption for this feat would be for the warforged's racial pre requiring it, and then converting all divine healing taken after the second tier into repair healing or something...

[Sothary]

How did he get high enough to run Crucible without learning to ask around before taking random feats?

Wait, never mind; there is probably a good explanation, and it probably involves the foolishness of humankind. Old news.

How... simple, it is called the Turbine Easy Button.

[Purgatory]

This would be a nice feat if it added like a 25% incoming repair bonus modifier to make up the imunity to devine healing.

It would still kinda suck but atleast be somewhat useful for a soloist. mod fort is not worth a feat and imun to devine healing is just a silly limitation to put on yourself.

[Therigar]

You might want to rethink concerning Improved Fortification. I can think of some very good reasons to take the feat.

None of them relate to PuGs or guild groups that rely on fleshies.

But, I can still think of some very good reasons.

In fact, I'm considering it on my WF artificer just to get the healers to stop healing me. Even when I tell them not to waste their time or spell points on me they insist on it.

One characteristic of artificer is that it almost never needs to be in any real danger. For a WF that means self repair is certainly sufficient most of the time.

For a self-reliant character the feat saves the need for gear and frees one spot for something else that might be more useful.

Note that this has nothing to do with PuGs or fleshy groups. But, it does have a place.

In my case, I'm thinking of doing it just to annoy other players who insist that it is a bad thing. :D

[rimble]

One less health bar to watch...:p

[voodoogroves]

One less health bar to watch...:p

As long as we can shade it purple or something to see who we can't heal.

[MrPilgrim]

hmm I honestly thought that feat existed mainly for RP purposes or something, but wasn't too sure if people really take this one. Now I know :)

[Purgatory]

hmm I honestly thought that feat existed mainly for RP purposes or something, but wasn't too sure if people really take this one. Now I know :)

I have only ran into one person myself personaly that had this feat over the 6 years I have been playing and that was over 5 years ago.

So no people are not really takeing this one. But there has been a very very very small few who have.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Plenty of other bonus feats to take IMO.

Below lvl....7...or so. I think Improved Fort is useful. (but I would never take it)

But then, I try to play in a way that I take care of myself and do not depend on someone else to heal me.

Honestly, just because a Cleric cannot heal you does not suddenly make you a gimp.

Add the popularity of WF Wiz/Sorc.
Add that currently every party is half Artificers. :p

Not that bad IMO.


However....
Plenty of good bonus feats to take. That would be way better choice IMO.

And I think most people who take it do not have a good understanding of the game.
(which also most likely means they "CANNOT" take care of themselves. and actually do need a cleric.)

[Thrudh]

As long as we can shade it purple or something to see who we can't heal.

That's a pretty good idea. Maybe when PMs go into undead form, their bar could turn purple too?

[Darkrok]

That's a pretty good idea. Maybe when PMs go into undead form, their bar could turn purple too?

Would be a great change. I've grouped with some PM's that don't stay in form (this is below level 18 of course). They would go into form when appropriate but if big damage started coming in they would drop form. Would be nice to know when they were heal-able and when they were not.

[JOTMON]

As long as we can shade it purple or something to see who we can't heal.

Oohh, I like this..
Think it deserves its own thread..

Do the same with Necro Wizzies, make their life bar change from red to purple.
Then everyone in the party can see they are no longer healable by conventional means.

[Jaid314]

Honestly, just because a Cleric cannot heal you does not suddenly make you a gimp.

Add the popularity of WF Wiz/Sorc.
Add that currently every party is half Artificers. :p

Not that bad IMO.

oh, you mean those people who aren't watching anyone else's health bar?

it can work somewhat, a very little bit, when you are a self-healing character. it could be less crippling if you have a static group with someone actually designated for repair duties. but it will never remotely compare to what you get as a benefit to being able to heal from positive energy, unless you get something equivalent to the pale master aura which pretty much means you never need healing from elsewhere (and if you do, on rare occasions, you can simply return to fleshy form, an option not available to people with improved fortification).

[Alyiakal]

Plenty of other bonus feats to take IMO.

Below lvl....7...or so. I think Improved Fort is useful. (but I would never take it)

But then, I try to play in a way that I take care of myself and do not depend on someone else to heal me.

Honestly, just because a Cleric cannot heal you does not suddenly make you a gimp.

Add the popularity of WF Wiz/Sorc.
Add that currently every party is half Artificers. :p

Not that bad IMO.


However....
Plenty of good bonus feats to take. That would be way better choice IMO.

And I think most people who take it do not have a good understanding of the game.
(which also most likely means they "CANNOT" take care of themselves. and actually do need a cleric.)

Not being able to be healed by divine healing certainly does not make you gimp in and of itself; just look at Palemasters. Their trade of divine healing comes with huge benefits. The problem is you are basically slapping a gigantic malus on your character with the tiny positive aspect that you don't need to find a Moderate or Heavy Fort item.

It has been touted, by some, as a benefit that Warforged can receive healing from both arcane and divine sources, why would you want to eliminate one of these avenues? It happens to be the reason (along with nuking their own spellcasting) that no one uses Bladesworn Transformation, even though AoV bound WF FvS are forced to take it.

I can understand wanting to not be reliant on others. I can even (it's a stretch) understand those who want to annoy others. It still does not seem to be a very good tactical decision in either case.

[Cyr]

Agreed OP. It is a cruel joke on new players that this feat is still in the game let alone that they put it on the bonus feat list of the new class.

[Therigar]

I can understand wanting to not be reliant on others. I can even (it's a stretch) understand those who want to annoy others. It still does not seem to be a very good tactical decision in either case.

Some reasons to take the feat (other than annoying others):

1. All WF static party. Actually, almost no reason NOT to take the feat unless you are feat starved.
2. Solo build. Again, unless feat starved almost no reason NOT to take the feat.
3. Entirely self sufficient. The PM analogy is actually very good. But, it fails in one respect because PM can choose to drop out of form.

The first two are, IMO, completely reasonable and good reasons to take the feat. The third is a bit less so because most players, eventually, rely on other players to some extent.

Edit: A variation on the items above is this: If you duo with a wizard/sorcerer who provides your healing and the two of you routinely PuG in the same group. My son and I are sometimes in this situation when he's able to game (much less now that school is back in session). Having the other as a personal healbot lets whichever of us is running the gonzo toon do whatever we want w/o worrying the healer.

[Kilnedric]

The other funny part here is he said "nothing better to take". Artificer bonus feat list has all the good ranged stuff theyd want, all metamagics, shoot even skill focus: umd might be better. Was this guy building a melee Artificer? I cant imagine why you would, but thats the only way I can see not considering one of the other feats better.

I think the only feats that I'd want on mine that are NOT on the bonus list are Toughness and Insightful Reflexes.
Edit: Maybe also Spell Foci.

[Qezuzu]

Some reasons to take the feat (other than annoying others):

1. All WF static party. Actually, almost no reason NOT to take the feat unless you are feat starved.
2. Solo build. Again, unless feat starved almost no reason NOT to take the feat.
3. Entirely self sufficient. The PM analogy is actually very good. But, it fails in one respect because PM can choose to drop out of form.

The first two are, IMO, completely reasonable and good reasons to take the feat. The third is a bit less so because most players, eventually, rely on other players to some extent.

Edit: A variation on the items above is this: If you duo with a wizard/sorcerer who provides your healing and the two of you routinely PuG in the same group. My son and I are sometimes in this situation when he's able to game (much less now that school is back in session). Having the other as a personal healbot lets whichever of us is running the gonzo toon do whatever we want w/o worrying the healer.

Remember that the benefits of this feat are duplicated by a moderate/heavy fort item, which is NOT hard to fit in. I could only see taking this feat at low levels when you're using repair pots to heal yourself. Above level 5 or something, there are better options for that slot.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

oh, you mean those people who aren't watching anyone else's health bar?

it can work somewhat, a very little bit, when you are a self-healing character. it could be less crippling if you have a static group with someone actually designated for repair duties. but it will never remotely compare to what you get as a benefit to being able to heal from positive energy, unless you get something equivalent to the pale master aura which pretty much means you never need healing from elsewhere (and if you do, on rare occasions, you can simply return to fleshy form, an option not available to people with improved fortification).

You are absolutely correct! And you have hit upon one of my pet peaves. :p

Why?! Is everyone so oblivious to the status of other players in your group?
Why do they not see the health bars. SP bars? (or lack thereof)
Why do they not see the blue map dots?

But they don't.
And typically only the cleric makes any attempt to help anyone else out.


So yeah.....

Improved Fort is a death sentence.
Cause the only guy who will ever attempt to help you out cannot do so.
(and because for some reason there are a large number of people who can self heal......but don't.)

[mahiro37]

The funny thing is that one of the early runearms (TRG I believe) has mod fort on it so why would you bother? Granted, you'll switch that RA out soon enough but honestly, my Arty rarely gets hit anyway.

[ddoplayer064]

Quite a while ago, maybe a year, I ran into a WF fighter with the Imp Fort feat...needless to say, he spent quite a lot of time in someone's backpack...

[LordArkan]

This would be a nice feat if it added like a 25% incoming repair bonus modifier to make up the imunity to devine healing.

It would still kinda suck but atleast be somewhat useful for a soloist. mod fort is not worth a feat and imun to devine healing is just a silly limitation to put on yourself.


A change to the feat would be nice. Something like +75% fort, +25% repair amp, -25% healing amp, and available to fleshies with construct essence. Still wouldn't be a great feat, but at least it wouldn't be an automatic death sentence.

[jonqrandom]

for self-healers, this feat is only a serious issue when incapacitated, so my main question is: how often do you find yourself merely incapacitated? at low levels, it can happen quite a lot, but when mobs are routinely chucking 50s and over at you, how likely are you to find yourself between 0 and -9 health? this is a genuine question, as i only have one mid-lvl toon, at 14, and although my limited experience with her tells me the answer is "rarely", i'd love to hear some input.

i do think it's fair to say that many healers do NOT expect to have to chuck heals at arcane WF (or their dogs), and certainly when i play either of mine i expect to look after myself as far as repairs go.

[MsEricka]

No it's not a good feat, but my reply is more towards the incap issue.

If someone is incapacitated there are many ways to revive them. One that would work around the improved fortification feat would be to give the incap player Greater heroism. GH comes on clickies and is scrollable.

Essentially anything that gives temp HP would do the trick like aid, mass aid, virtue, song of Heroism and as already stated, GH.

This tip is often missed by newer players as they watch party members go from -1 to death standing there wondering what to do. A simple set of korthos bracers of aid could prevent some groups from wiping.

[sebastianosmith]

Oohh, I like this..
Think it deserves its own thread..

Do the same with Necro Wizzies, make their life bar change from red to purple.
Then everyone in the party can see they are no longer healable by conventional means.


Can't be "red to purple" as the colour blind wouldn't be able to distinguish the two. Make it white text over a black background. Much more dramatic.

[andreascott89]

Oohh, I like this..
Think it deserves its own thread..

Do the same with Necro Wizzies, make their life bar change from red to purple.
Then everyone in the party can see they are no longer healable by conventional means.

This sounds awesome. My ideal would be to have a color graduation that told you the impact of positive healing.

WF with improved fort and Pale masters would be color coded at one end for 0% impact of positive healing (dark red?)

Normal +100% would have a color (normal red?)

Even getting up to massive healing amp +300% (bright red?)

way cool if the healer knew the healing amp value that applied...

J