Battle engineer vs Master mechanic

[Quetzacoala]

Would an artificer specializing in repeaters out dps a master mechanic?

[Alex301]

With rogue sneak attack damage, I very much doubt it.

[Quetzacoala]

With rogue sneak attack damage, I very much doubt it.

True... however, I was thinking that the artificer buffs and also the ability to not have to reload for six seconds would make it interesting, something I would be able to calculate anyway.

[Jaid314]

note that the battle engineer will also get his rune arm damage.

[altrocks]

Artificer will win.

Rogue Subtle Backstabbing does not work on ranged attacks. So you might get your sneak dice on the first volly with a repeater, but after that it's nothing but aggro. Melee rogues do MUCH better because of that enhancement.

Now, Artificers on the other hand. They have Endless Fusilade, weapon imbues, Rune Arm imbues and other spells to augment their abilities, not to mention a pet that is always with them and which can trip, intimidate and be healed by the Artificer.

So yeah. I'm gonna have to go with the well built Arty for this one. Repeater rogues have been a pretty lousy choice for a long, long time.

[ThePrincipal]

repeater rogues know how to handle aggro to maximize sneak attack situations by the time they leave the harbor

also haste boost IV works fine with repeaters

[Tsuarok]

Artificer will win.

Rogue Subtle Backstabbing does not work on ranged attacks. So you might get your sneak dice on the first volly with a repeater, but after that it's nothing but aggro. Melee rogues do MUCH better because of that enhancement.

Now, Artificers on the other hand. They have Endless Fusilade, weapon imbues, Rune Arm imbues and other spells to augment their abilities, not to mention a pet that is always with them and which can trip, intimidate and be healed by the Artificer.

So yeah. I'm gonna have to go with the well built Arty for this one. Repeater rogues have been a pretty lousy choice for a long, long time.

Rad II

[Tsuarok]

hmm.... maybe a 14/6 split?

[Memnir]

Having played both - Battle Engineer wins out in terms of fun to play.
For me at least, your mileage may vary.

[Jaid314]

against stuff that can be sneak attacked, probably mechanics will come out ahead. against anything that can't be critted, probably the artificer.

[Jay203]

repeater rogue + bluff = massive death counts >_>

[Malison]

Against anything with a modicum of fortification, the artificer. Your rune arm is not just 1-2d6 bonus damage on your weapon. It IS your weapon. The crossbow is just a distraction.

[Jay203]

Against anything with a modicum of fortification, the artificer. Your rune arm is not just 1-2d6 bonus damage on your weapon. It IS your weapon. The crossbow is just a distraction.

true enough :p
curse the fortification! :D:D:D:D

[altrocks]

Rad II

And while you're waiting for a RadII proc while running for your life, the Arty had unloaded several rouds of DPs already as well as his rune arm and the mob has died.

[PestWulf]

A blend of the two is the best damage, (I'm going Halfling Rogue 10 / Art 9 / Fighter 1). If only you could count on the Rogue sneak, the rogue would win it hands down in damage. Without that, it's definitely the Arty.

The differences between the two in terms of the crossbow are
-2STR per sneak from the rogue and of course the juicy 10d6 + 12 from level and enhancements.
Everything else an Arty can cover.

On the flip side, the arty gets (again, pertaining to crossbows, not the other groovie things)
a changing 1d6 of elemental,
a whopping +4hit/+2dam/+2crit damage and confrim from enhancements and prestige
The bonus damage from a high end rune arm, like Toven's http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm which is an additional 2d8 damage and the chance to proc the lightning strike on ranged, or switch in an arm to bypass silver DR, etc. very versatile
Endless Fussilade for those Oh SH*T moments.
And of course the Rune Arm damage is simultaneous with the crossbow damage.

If conditions are right the rogue has about 10d6 of damage on the Arty (plus the -2str per hit which is enormous for putting mobs into the temporary 50% bonus damage even though it won't increase sneak, it's still a big boost to the physical PBS range damage).

The best the Arty can do to cover this, is knock it down to about a 10d6 + (str damage) gap. With Halfling or Half-elf as race you can about knock off another approximate 3d6 of that (assuming the arty to can take advantage of sneak). So a 7d6 gap (minus actual rune arm damage) that can't be closed without better rune arms being discovered or more spells/feats

If sneak isn't an option, all that goes away and the rogue is at a significant disadvantage.

Other things to note on this is WHEN the damage comes into play. Atrificers ramp up much, much faster than rogue mechanics. Both by having the spells as well as in feats. While a Rogue at level 6 has toughness, rapid reload and Point Blank Shot, the ARtificer has all that and two more feats to play with.

****...Not sure who I think is the better one now :( But since the rogue damage is situational, i'd have to give it to the Arty. If we add in versatility and other factors, definitely the Arty.

[Kakow]

I have a 19 pure arty and a 20 pure mechanic. The mechanic is older and has an assortment of nice repeaters, but given the same repeater as my arty, he'll still do less damage. The imbues for your crossbow attacks don't seem like much, but remember, folks are paying scads of plat to add 1 single point of force dmg from Stone of Change. Thought Spike starts off better than that (and you can still add the SoC force dmg rit if you're rich).

Say my rogue rolls 6s on every single SA die he has. Using the numbers shown already above, we can assume a max amount of SA dmg of 72 (ignoring any buffs or other special conditions). Per bolt. That's not too shabby, and in many cases, is quite sufficient to destroy trash fairly quickly.

My arty doesn't have innate SA (but can benefit from something "of backstabbing" like anyone else, but I won't count that). What he does have is a miniature nuclear reactor strapped to his left arm.

Let's just assume, that like the rogue, he's gone full ****** maxing out his capital attack (that'd be his rune shots). I'll even use a fairly easily farmed rune arm as well, Glorious Obscenity from the Reign of Madness pack. We'll also assume he's attacking normal trash just like the rogue is. I've recorded on my bio my best critical off one of the acid orbs it fires....1,080. That's not theoretical max. And that is only on 1 of 5 orbs it fires. Also, that record hit was at level 17, and rune arms increase in damage per level. Even if I half that...hell, I'll quarter it....it's so far above what my mechanic can do I've barely touched him as a viable repeater user since arties came onto the stage. He'll TR into assassin and never look back. Someday. When I'm not laughing my arse off at the latest blast of nearly 5k damage from a lvl 17 gun.

An artie not firing their gun is like a melee TWF using nothing in their offhand, and it makes me sad when I see so many of them not fire it, and sadly, even a few who don't have a clue how to.

Also, and this has nothing to do with your original question (sorry)...if you are a WF artie...use the construct buffs we get please. It's so sad to see a WF artie die over and over again because they won't cast two simple spells that only work on non-fleshbags.

[oweieie]

Against anything with a modicum of fortification, the artificer. Your rune arm is not just 1-2d6 bonus damage on your weapon. It IS your weapon. The crossbow is just a distraction.

The only time your rune arm will be putting out more than your crossbow is when you can stand still all the time and use AE on multilpe targets which is... Devil Assault and... maybe Kobold Assault? Beyond that your crossbow or blade barrier will be doing much more damage.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

A blend of the two is the best damage, (I'm going Halfling Rogue 10 / Art 9 / Fighter 1). If only you could count on the Rogue sneak, the rogue would win it hands down in damage. Without that, it's definitely the Arty.

The differences between the two in terms of the crossbow are
-2STR per sneak from the rogue and of course the juicy 10d6 + 12 from level and enhancements.
Everything else an Arty can cover.

On the flip side, the arty gets (again, pertaining to crossbows, not the other groovie things)
a changing 1d6 of elemental,
a whopping +4hit/+2dam/+2crit damage and confrim from enhancements and prestige
The bonus damage from a high end rune arm, like Toven's http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm which is an additional 2d8 damage and the chance to proc the lightning strike on ranged, or switch in an arm to bypass silver DR, etc. very versatile
Endless Fussilade for those Oh SH*T moments.
And of course the Rune Arm damage is simultaneous with the crossbow damage.

If conditions are right the rogue has about 10d6 of damage on the Arty (plus the -2str per hit which is enormous for putting mobs into the temporary 50% bonus damage even though it won't increase sneak, it's still a big boost to the physical PBS range damage).

The best the Arty can do to cover this, is knock it down to about a 10d6 + (str damage) gap. With Halfling or Half-elf as race you can about knock off another approximate 3d6 of that (assuming the arty to can take advantage of sneak). So a 7d6 gap (minus actual rune arm damage) that can't be closed without better rune arms being discovered or more spells/feats

If sneak isn't an option, all that goes away and the rogue is at a significant disadvantage.

Other things to note on this is WHEN the damage comes into play. Atrificers ramp up much, much faster than rogue mechanics. Both by having the spells as well as in feats. While a Rogue at level 6 has toughness, rapid reload and Point Blank Shot, the ARtificer has all that and two more feats to play with.

****...Not sure who I think is the better one now :( But since the rogue damage is situational, i'd have to give it to the Arty. If we add in versatility and other factors, definitely the Arty.

Don't forget that arty is buffing the rest of the group for much more damage, done at a higher rate, assuming you're the only arti, which may not be the case at lower levels of course:)