Sarlona, what is with you?

[AMDarkwolf]

I am really getting sick of this, and it has to be said, although chances are the ones I am 'ranting' about are not forum goers, but still...

Sarlona has this new wave of people, many of them TRs(So have been around some time, the 'new' excuse don't fly) where they seem to purposely do exactly the opposite of whats said. Every pug I make, every quest I run, if there's someone in the group that I don't specifically know, that person WILL do this. Whether its 'do not kill X mob' (And he will go out of his way to target and attack THOSE first, even if that fails the quest) or 'please kill mob X before u finish quest(and this type of person will train 30 of them along behind him/her refusing to touch them.

Am really quit sick of it, the above are only 2 examples, but its enough to illustrate the issue. I'm sure a lot of the response will be 'so don't pug' but this is a MMO, meeting and cooperating with new people is the lifeblood of what the game is about. I suffer this occasionally before, and it was fine, but this TR, during this life, this is almost a constant.

In the past I've always strongly defended pugs in the 'don't know them, dont accept them' mentality of some of sarlonas 'elite' - I guess I'm just getting all of the bad apples thrown in my face all at once this life?

Oh and to the clown who suggested 'well don't say it then' tried that... if ppl don't know what to do, they will make mistakes, which is fine, but shorting the learning curve helps them out.

[Gempoult]

This is exactly why I don't pug on Sarlona much anymore, Shroud and thats about it :) TRed my caster and now I am back to 16 and 1/2 level while grouping less than 5 times, 3 of them duo or trio with friends, seems like next will be same, looks a little slower but is it really? :)
But I do get your point, socializing is cool thing and recently (after u11) very amusing to me :) For example solo healed Shroud where my first life divine had most hp, more than 4 barbs and 3 fighters (in part 5 where everybody was raged), then grouped at lower lvl with a barb that had almost twice less hp than my wizard, being one lvl higher :) yeah, fun stuff.

[KainLionheart]

I often wonder this.

One example I can think of is when you get that guy who hasnt said a word in VoN and then at thre end despite 2 or 3 players mentioning to not use any type of elly damage, someone does. Why? It was said out loud and typed in party chat. Why for the love of all that is holy (burst) did you still do it?

I can only imagine these people are griefers or complete ****ing idiots?

[destiny4405]

cursed crypt last night. was doing it for favor, and leader says, dont kill silver flame guys. not a minute vent by, a sorc started throwing firewalls :)

[Gempoult]

I often wonder this.

One example I can think of is when you get that guy who hasnt said a word in VoN and then at thre end despite 2 or 3 players mentioning to not use any type of elly damage, someone does. Why? It was said out loud and typed in party chat. Why for the love of all that is holy (burst) did you still do it?

I can only imagine these people are griefers or complete ****ing idiots?

Oh, yeah, don't start me on VoN... the completed/failed cause of some idiot going in too early VoN6s at lower lvl is like 1/20... No matter its typed 56 times, yelled 30 more, used CAPS several times and there is always this one guy activating dragon and locking party out. I thought its language barrier but now I think its plain stupidity :)

[bvermeul]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

[Arshan]

Since it happened to me to actually go kill a boss without conquest in your party Atma, i can tell u a super secret which works awesomely. When i assume something is important, i use CAPS LOCK (BECAUSE IM BIG). People tend to see it better. Or even insist on the point by repeating it each time someone joins, it's what people check the first after hi, or howdy. I know you want max xp for each quest. But when u told to me that u dint want to kill boss directly when we can, i only found it by scrolling up, though it wasnt an obvious *i want conquest* (it was clear the corridors before bosses).
Though what is happening to you is happening to me too. But if u assume something is important, let the puggers know it is for you. Be clear, be obvious, BE BIG <3

(and to be honnest in that blighted i didnt see where u said u didnt want to kill the boss asap. I didnt go for it cause i KNEW you wouldnt, but i guessed it.)

[Galeria]

Agree with the stupidity comment.

For some reason, normally simple Shroud 30-min runs are failing over and over this week. And it's not because of part 5-stronger Harry...

I don't usually vent about Shroud drama, but just since yesterday I've been in no less than 5 failed Shrouds. The first one got The Wall in part 3 with 3 puzzles left. The next two could not understand the concept of "kill them at the same time." The one after that resulted in the healing anchor running away from Harry in part 4, leaving the rest of the melees to die.

My very favorite though was last night when the leader filled in the last spot with a guildie cleric... 2 clerics and a FvS. Should be ok for healing, no?

Part 2 had to be redone 3 times. I don't know what happened in part 4 exactly, but my arcane and the other arcane and the cleric were the only ones standing at the end of part 4. Thank the dots. I think the other cleric was alive because he'd been hiding. Seriously, I took out all the gnolls while the other arcane finished off Harry for round 2, healing ourselves.

So, we have a long discussion with the dead people about who needs to be rezzed, because I don't have raise dead so that left the UMD sorc and the cleric to raise as many as possible. Most people were cool about it, said don't worry about me but it was decided that the casters needed to be raised so that they could shrine.

I ask if people are ready, tell them to prepare, I'm going to hit the altar. Confirm from the sorc, dead people all chime in ready. I hit the altar.

Then I see the cleric standing next to me. At the altar. Not in the room where the dead people are waiting. Ding! The sorc raises the wiz and everyone's dead again. As I ask the cleric why he wasn't raising people (he's been happily chatting on mic this whole time) he proceeds to loot the chests, then RUN AROUND THE ALTAR AND HIT THE PORTAL.

Ding.

I haven't looted (thank goodness I used the shrine while everyone was discussing rezing) but that's not a big deal... the big deal is that the sorc and the wiz he just rezzed are still in the arena and they die IN PART 4. They aren't close enough to the altar to be teleported to part 5. So they are stuck there.

Part 5 kicks off with no mana for the other healers and 2 arcanes stuck in part 4. The clueless cleric does not answer any questions about why he hit the portal. Someone asks if he's ever run shroud before. I repeat over and over in text and voice DO NOT KILL FIRE. Thank goodness the ranger handled fire so we could get mana.

So, while buffing the remaining party members for the last fight, someone asks for blur. The party leader explains it's a waste of mana because Harry has true seeing. Clueless cleric pipes up, "Blur please."

Dude, no. We just explained why.

After about 5 deaths and Harry only at 70% most of us start to give up because our death penalties have us down so far there's no point in rezzing again.

Good times, good times.

[Chai]

TR wings are nothing more than a reward for doing the same thing you just described, all the way to 20 successfully, at least once.

Remember 2 years ago during the barrage of " zomg!! froobs are ruining the game!!" threads, when myself and a few others were rambling on about investing in the PUG quality of our server and teaching the newbies how to play, rather than just zerging ahead and completing the quest. Alot of these players have run this content 15 times over now and still dont know a thing about it. Its hilarious to read these rants nowdays where people have the expectation that they should know how to communicate, when they havent been communicated with since they began playing. They are so used to just doing what they do that they likely dont read the chat you are talking about, especially when they are in combat and half the group is 5 rooms ahead. In fact, they have been trained not to.

Now this dog is old, and it still craps on the livingroom carpet, right in front of you as it has done all these years. Its also a helluva lot harder to train it now than it would have been when it was a puppy, heh. Youll also notice the "told you so" card is outside the deck, laying on the end table, face up. :p

[slothinator]

I've been in a lot of "pear-shaped" shrouds lately on Sarlona. I think it has a lot to do with the pack being on sale recently and big influx of newcomers and first-timers. It is always the same issues; can't understand separate and kill in part 2, can't do their puzzles or don't ask for help, jumping into part 4 without group (don't get me started on this), and a whole list of other problems.

I just do not understand the reluctance to say "hey, it's my first time". Especially when people are asking before each part "Any first timers?" or "Does everyone know what to do or does anyone need help?". I have yet to see a first-timer in the shroud get griefed. People want to help, all you have to do is ask.

[dragon2fire]

I feel ya man i do, and for you to be commenting on it really says something.You have always been wiling to run with anyone. I have seen some bad pugs recently but i think you are having a string of bad luck as well.

[Munesai]

It is my custom to be a good courteous driver, and I give the right away very often.
However, I still get cut off by these **** drivers in Japan all the time, probably because they can see I'm a foreigner.
Although it makes me mad when I get cut off, or my right of way gets stepped on, I won't return that kind of base treatment.
I will always drive my, better, safer, and courteous way.
And thus, I prevail, integrity intact.

[jaegarnel]

I don't have quite as many bad PUG experiences as you do.
I PUG all my Shrouds and have only one failure out of 16 runs. I PUG every single quest for that matter, and very rarely wipe. Idiots, pikers and other assorted useless players are not that common, and it takes more than one of those to wipe most quests (the exceptions being the quests where you need to not kill some stuff) provided the rest of the group is competent.

And yes there are people who don't read chat for some reason.
I had one straight out admit it a few weeks ago after he asked a question I had already typed the answer to twice. There are plenty more, especially at low levels, who just seem to do their thing while ignoring every instruction. When it comes to those, just /squelch and move on.

I don't quite understand what makes these players think ignoring communication from other players is a good idea, but they're a small minority, in my experience. There's no reason to claim they're representative of most PUGers.

[Ilindith]

Been PUGing for 11 lives and yes, people can be ********.

[Tobril]

Don't PUG, it's scary.


Remi setup a new TR channel, here's the link for those who haven't seen it:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=327960

[Seikojin]

Ya know Atma, I have seen it too. Maybe a guild should be formed. The stormreach tour guide. They can offer first runs to newbs at any level. Get their training wheels worked off per se. LOL

On the very rare occasion that I lead, I look for newbs so I can help them understand why we want to do X, Y, Z, and skip A, B, C. All in tells unless people actually will openly admit their newbness.

I dunno. I run into some pretty zany situations where I question the players ability to live until their level. But people make it there sometimes without experiencing much of the game and therefore don't have that run-through experience.

But yeah, I have seen an influx of the newness.

[Sethus]

Ya know Atma, I have seen it too. Maybe a guild should be formed. The stormreach tour guide. They can offer first runs to newbs at any level. Get their training wheels worked off per se. LOL

On the very rare occasion that I lead, I look for newbs so I can help them understand why we want to do X, Y, Z, and skip A, B, C. All in tells unless people actually will openly admit their newbness.

I dunno. I run into some pretty zany situations where I question the players ability to live until their level. But people make it there sometimes without experiencing much of the game and therefore don't have that run-through experience.

But yeah, I have seen an influx of the newness.

Not going to lie, i kinda like this idea.

There are a few people who play the game that simply take their time or don't play as hardcore as a lot of us because they like the "story" or "experience" of the game. I can dig it and these people won't want to be taught anything. However, since most new peeps are like us, this could be just what the doctor ordered to help teach people the ins and outs of things. Maybe they'd even be open to some help with their builds.

Oh.... wishful thinking, how i love you.

[Galeria]

I like the idea of it too.

If someone puts it together, I'll volunteer some time toward it.

[slothinator]

I had an idea recently (go ahead, get it out of your system) along the lines of what you are talking about. 1 or 2 established players go to Korthos and put up an LFM that says "Advice for New Players" or something similar. The best time to get build advice is at the beginning; makes re-rolling less painful. I realize it will probably just turn into "hey, that's great; can I haz sum $$$$ plz!!!", but I'd be willing to dedicate some time to this if there is enough interest from other established players.

[vampiregoat69]

I am really getting sick of this, and it has to be said, although chances are the ones I am 'ranting' about are not forum goers, but still...

Sarlona has this new wave of people, many of them TRs(So have been around some time, the 'new' excuse don't fly) where they seem to purposely do exactly the opposite of whats said. Every pug I make, every quest I run, if there's someone in the group that I don't specifically know, that person WILL do this. Whether its 'do not kill X mob' (And he will go out of his way to target and attack THOSE first, even if that fails the quest) or 'please kill mob X before u finish quest(and this type of person will train 30 of them along behind him/her refusing to touch them.

Am really quit sick of it, the above are only 2 examples, but its enough to illustrate the issue. I'm sure a lot of the response will be 'so don't pug' but this is a MMO, meeting and cooperating with new people is the lifeblood of what the game is about. I suffer this occasionally before, and it was fine, but this TR, during this life, this is almost a constant.

In the past I've always strongly defended pugs in the 'don't know them, dont accept them' mentality of some of sarlonas 'elite' - I guess I'm just getting all of the bad apples thrown in my face all at once this life?

Oh and to the clown who suggested 'well don't say it then' tried that... if ppl don't know what to do, they will make mistakes, which is fine, but shorting the learning curve helps them out.

This would get annoying fast your the type of person I would love to group with. I find it REAL hard to PUG as some people are so ARRRGH I figure why bother. Look me up sometime I play Timelocked

[vampiregoat69]

Ya know Atma, I have seen it too. Maybe a guild should be formed. The stormreach tour guide. They can offer first runs to newbs at any level. Get their training wheels worked off per se. LOL

On the very rare occasion that I lead, I look for newbs so I can help them understand why we want to do X, Y, Z, and skip A, B, C. All in tells unless people actually will openly admit their newbness.

I dunno. I run into some pretty zany situations where I question the players ability to live until their level. But people make it there sometimes without experiencing much of the game and therefore don't have that run-through experience.

But yeah, I have seen an influx of the newness.

PLEASE for the love of GOD someone do this I and my friends do not know where alot of the old or new quests are and WANT to learn where to go to do them. PLEASE someone teach us so we don't get into a group just to get kicked for not knowing or have to hear some flame about not knowing the quests

[Kages]

There are actually several guild dedicated to helping new players learn and gain experience. The sad part is there aren't enough people willing to put in the time floating around to make any of them worth it.

[Munkenmo]

Been PUGing for 11 lives and yes, people can be ********.

dont call people ********, it nets you warnings and 3 day bans.. :(

[Kages]

dont call people ********, it nets you warnings and 3 day bans.. :(
In all honesty he didn't really call anyone ********. Just said people "could" be.

[Munkenmo]

In all honesty he didn't really call anyone ********. Just said people "could" be.

Point taken, I'll try phrasing that more carefully next time and see how it works out for me :D


BTW atma reading this thread makes me remember an elite rainbow in the dark fail, and then another last life.. :p

[Kages]

Point taken, I'll try phrasing that more carefully next time and see how it works out for me :D


BTW atma reading this thread makes me remember an elite rainbow in the dark fail, and then another last life.. :p
Yes, rainbow is definately one I prefer to go solo over having pugs in party.

[moops]

There is one guild in general that I avoid because they are always the ones who seem to start swinging at trash on the bases, kill the dogs in HOX, stand where the main tank is supposed to stand, run out in the middle of the shadow room, etc.

At the beginning of any complicated run I do a sound check--most players, even VETS play with their sound too high, and can't hear the party leader or any other pertinent information. If someone does not respond, I dismiss them. I Don't care if people are new or have no gear, give me a group that can listen and I can get them thru anything.

[Havok.cry]

Lately I have been running into more and more people who completely ignore party chat and stay in guild chat the whole time, also turning their sound off... I squelch them and reform without the idiots.

[Yan_PL]

couple of words from me.
1. Some people dislike in-game voice chat. seriously, I sometimes have trouble understanding someones words due to low quality sound transmission, and going "say again?" 3 times and then "please write" is annoying to me... And I expect it to be even more annoying to the person who has to repeat himself over and over.

2. Some people learn through mistakes. On first couple evons I didn't know what's going on, and my barb was swinging at everything. Now, I've lead successful at level von6 elite with 6 or so firsttimers, or soloed a base in evon6 with caster, or melee. My evolution as a player had it's bumps, but look at me now, soloing some easier epics, and letting pug people loot partycrashers chests without actually killing a thing (I still check my friends list/guild chat first, tho). I still have ways to go; but if I wasn't given a second chance, I'd be still a total newb in many situations.

3. Disappointment with pugs isn't just Sarlona thing. I believe it happens to everyone, on every server - if you pug, sometimes things indeed go "pear-shaped". Yet sometimes when people you know are not in your level range and you need XP, pug is only viable option (other than hireling, which are more frustrating if you fail - if you fail when running with hireling, it means that you made some kind of mistake; and you only have yourself to blame for it).

4. Party chat isn't the first thing people check in combat situations, and you can't really blame them for not having attention span reaching party chat all the time.

5. Some people don't like being told what to do. I don't. If I know a method to do something, which worked for me before, I'll try to run it with my method; prolly telling others to play accordingly. I don't talk in voice chat usually, so explaining why it works and specifying every detail on my plan often is too much for me to write; yet on the other hand, when I'm told to do something I like to know why and how. I would have a lot of trouble grouping with person like myself, unless we were already using the same method for quite some time before. On the other hand, if someone was nice enough to supply everyone with a plan that works, I'll play along. Gee, I might be even thankful, as it means that I don't have to write my own plan or feel very responsible for failure of someone else's plan.

6. Language barrier. Let's face it - it's sometimes hard to communicate with other people. Example? I'm not native English speaker; I am aware of my commonly failing grammar, and sometimes lacking vocabulary. Yet, sometimes, when I join PUG groups with lot of Asians in them, I feel forced to perform twohanded facepalm while reading their "Engrish". And that's only if they decide to write in party chat - it's actually even worse when they start talking in language unknown to me over voice chat. Especially if they repeatedly yell some word/sentence I can't guess the meaning of.

7. Technical difficulties, real life situations and other things affecting someones performance happen from time to time. It's possible that due to such under-performance, you might be dumping otherwise pretty cool guy(gal) hwo kills mobs and doesn't afraid of anything.

8. Squelch list. If your squelch list is 25+ppl long, how much time do you need to forget why did you blacklisted someone? How often do you clear this list? Do you ever give people a second chance, or you're just too awesome to be forgiving?

9. Taking the game too seriously. I have such issue, which was brought to my mind only recently (and I know who I should thank for bringing it to my mind). I ramble and rant about it all the time, I am upset about failures in it, and I'm overly excited about my plans or upcoming changes that I believe I will like. Gee, I even post on forums, arguing some points or expressing opinions. Relevant opinion: sometimes in situations where you go "/rant on", you should instead realize that this is just a game you're playing for your entertainment. This might change your attitude towards other players (frankly, just send me some free frds :) - I would approve this).

[AMDarkwolf]

Just gonna make this clear so people know that its not miss-communication or mistranslation, or anything like that.

In many cases(not all, admit sometimes I feel a 'blarg de blarg' once after a person joins is enough) but I can be regularly telling./explaining, getting responses, 'chatting' with someone(Example being the 'Do not kill silver flame please, don't kill silver flame, Stay back so u don't kill silver flame, hide over there, I'll bring u mobs to kill' and just about any other variation of 'how to do cursed crypt') And i get afirm's over voice, in chat, the guys NOT a child(sounds like hes my age or even into the 40's) etc, as in im prett sure its clear(he's still trying to hump my leg as I was checking rooms in the west cloisters for sf, but lucky for me none were present...)


Anyways managed a perfect run, all silver flame rescued, none dead, at final room, I CAREFULLY (WITH CAPS) Explain how i want him to hide, then drop down south into the back wall.

Well.. mistakes happen and he ends up north, fine. I'm south, and manage to get vamp on me, and am dealing with him....


Little pop-up '4 silver flame remaining...3 silver flame remaining...2 silver flame remaining...1 silver flame remaining... '


And im just sitting there with that sinking feeling in stomach, and here's his cheerful voice shouting over voice 'I ALMOST GOT THEM ALL!'

Anyways this is an example of what I've been facing these last 2 weeks or so. I share THIS example because its amusing and not so much me trying to milk every last bit of xp, and more about how the flawless plan can end up as a thin, paste on the walls.

And no I'm sure its not communication, unless u can figure out a good way to explain how 'this is not opposite world, don't say 'OK, gotcha' unless u REALLY understand whats just been said'

Also people have to get that I am not against pugging, I myself, as long as 'this' doesn't become the norm, will be pugging throughout, I meet some very interesting people, some really fun people, and some people I just flat out 'enjoy' that I would never have met if I stuck to the 'tr only' chan or something similar. If I only stayed with guilds I know, names I know, etc, you are missing out.

Yes, 3/10 times (And this life 9/10 times) the people u will meet are the 'fish u toss back', but sarlona has some amazing 'unknowns' out there.

[Munkenmo]

aww i feel for you atma

Honestly though my mind keeps going back to a trap in elite rainbow with a Run against the wall.

wipe

rince

repeat

I wouldn't be too critical of pugs, even us vets can will and do, do dumb stuff often :D

... hmm i think taking a break from Tring and skiing are starting to make me go soft.

[AMDarkwolf]

aww i feel for you atma

Honestly though my mind keeps going back to a trap in elite rainbow with a Run against the wall.

wipe

rince

repeat

I wouldn't be too critical of pugs, even us vets can will and do, do dumb stuff often :D

... hmm i think taking a break from Tring and skiing are starting to make me go soft.


SSSHHH its important I get my shinies.

[Terebinthia]

Oh, yeah, don't start me on VoN... the completed/failed cause of some idiot going in too early VoN6s at lower lvl is like 1/20... No matter its typed 56 times, yelled 30 more, used CAPS several times and there is always this one guy activating dragon and locking party out. I thought its language barrier but now I think its plain stupidity :)

Yes, this.

I lost it in a guild run in a previous guild, which was like herding cats in raids at the best of times, when some ... person just charged the dragon despite me having said to wait on the dirt about 5 times and typed it 3 times (the... person could hear voice).

The first thing I see when half the party is locked out and she's throwing her cometfall is LOL in party chat. No, it's not (expletive of your choice) LOL. You have just wasted an hour of my life herding cats through VON5 because you are too much of a .... person to follow the most basic instructions.

As you can tell, this makes me stabbity ;)

[Postumus]

I am really getting sick of this, and it has to be said, although chances are the ones I am 'ranting' about are not forum goers, but still...

Sarlona has this new wave of people, many of them TRs(So have been around some time, the 'new' excuse don't fly) where they seem to purposely do exactly the opposite of whats said. Every pug I make, every quest I run, if there's someone in the group that I don't specifically know, that person WILL do this. Whether its 'do not kill X mob' (And he will go out of his way to target and attack THOSE first, even if that fails the quest) or 'please kill mob X before u finish quest(and this type of person will train 30 of them along behind him/her refusing to touch them.

Am really quit sick of it, the above are only 2 examples, but its enough to illustrate the issue.

Whaaaaat? C'mon man, my gimp TR ran with atma on a Stealer of Souls and an Enter the Kobold and I did exactly what you said every time.

Of course it got me killed every time. (Thanks btw, that lava in SoS was not 'just like a hot tub.')

[LadyAerys]

He'll claim he can solo it, then you'll have to form a rescue party. and Enmo, you ARE getting soft o.O it's..surreal.

[AMDarkwolf]

Whaaaaat? C'mon man, my gimp TR ran with atma on a Stealer of Souls and an Enter the Kobold and I did exactly what you said every time.

Of course it got me killed every time. (Thanks btw, that lava in SoS was not 'just like a hot tub.')

But the dead mean there are less mobs :D

[Kages]

There is one guild in general that I avoid because they are always the ones who seem to start swinging at trash on the bases, kill the dogs in HOX, stand where the main tank is supposed to stand, run out in the middle of the shadow room, etc.

At the beginning of any complicated run I do a sound check--most players, even VETS play with their sound too high, and can't hear the party leader or any other pertinent information. If someone does not respond, I dismiss them. I Don't care if people are new or have no gear, give me a group that can listen and I can get them thru anything.
Are you saying that if I'm having a bathroom emergency when I join your group, my pain and suffering will win me a boot for no compliance?

[LordPiglet]

Lately I have been running into more and more people who completely ignore party chat and stay in guild chat the whole time, also turning their sound off... I squelch them and reform without the idiots.

I actually just undock guild chat, and run it (and channels) in a seperate window so I can see both.


Are you saying that if I'm having a bathroom emergency when I join your group, my pain and suffering will win me a boot for no compliance?

I'd advise her to boot you just on principle. :D

[Hendrik]

I actually just undock guild chat, and run it (and channels) in a seperate window so I can see both.



I'd advise her to boot you just on principle. :D

/signed!

:p

[AMDarkwolf]

heh i got neg rep for my rant :D

That musta been someone who can't listen :D

[moops]

Are you saying that if I'm having a bathroom emergency when I join your group, my pain and suffering will win me a boot for no compliance?


Well chances are that if you are having an emergency you wont be back anyway:)

Hey, Ive locked my own guildies out of Shroud and TOD for being too slow and not responding:)

[SEMPER]

Well chances are that if you are having an emergency you wont be back anyway:)

Hey, Ive locked my own guildies out of Shroud and TOD for being too slow and not responding:)

<----------------

[Unreliable]

If you pug you always have to assume the worst possible results.. such as..

-You will loose your 10% exp

-Any auto-fail mechanics will happen, so for those auto-fail quests; either be prepared to fail or dont pug them

-You will not be able to window farm because some lame pug is afk in the quest for an hour after completion... thats why I dont pug quests that I have to rely window farming

-You will have to pick up extra work... dont pug if you feel like its not worth you personally having to do the 60% extra effort from dungeon scaling.. you cant assume the pugs will do this work for you, you have to be prepared to do it yourself

-Any loot your after, just assume a pug will take it and that you will get what you get (AKA: your loot is your loot, and no matter what you say/do/or tell the pugs, you cant rely to get anything from anyones loot tables except ur own).. Even if you put whatever in the lfm, be prepared for the worst... becuase lets face it, 50-75% of all pugs dont read lfms and just click on whats brightly colored for their levels for some quick exp in the LFM pannel.

-Assume that you will have to explain what to do, where to go, and how to do/get to the quest... Again, because most pugs dont read the lfm system

The list goes on, I havent even begun... But yeah be prepared for the worst when pugging...

But then why PuG? The only real reasons are to make things more interesting (at least for me), bring smore challenge to the quest (Yes more challenge; you heard me; not less lol), people to talk to, people to laugh at, funny quotes to add to ur bio, etc... and dont forget theres always that rare chance you meet that one in a billion pug thats actally.... well... good. O_O And when you PuG enough and meet enough good people, then you can eventually stop pugging and group with just those good people :D

Anyway, thats kind of my 101 info on pugging...

[jaegarnel]

If you pug you always have to assume the worst possible results.. such as..

-You will loose your 10% exp

-Any auto-fail mechanics will happen, so for those auto-fail quests; either be prepared to fail or dont pug them

-You will not be able to window farm because some lame pug is afk in the quest for an hour after completion... thats why I dont pug quests that I have to rely window farming

-You will have to pick up extra work... dont pug if you feel like its not worth you personally having to do the 60% extra effort from dungeon scaling.. you cant assume the pugs will do this work for you, you have to be prepared to do it yourself

-Any loot your after, just assume a pug will take it and that you will get what you get (AKA: your loot is your loot, and no matter what you say/do/or tell the pugs, you cant rely to get anything from anyones loot tables except ur own).. Even if you put whatever in the lfm, be prepared for the worst... becuase lets face it, 50-75% of all pugs dont read lfms and just click on whats brightly colored for their levels for some quick exp in the LFM pannel.

-Assume that you will have to explain what to do, where to go, and how to do/get to the quest... Again, because most pugs dont read the lfm system

The list goes on, I havent even begun... But yeah be prepared for the worst when pugging...

But then why PuG? The only real reasons are to make things more interesting (at least for me), bring smore challenge to the quest (Yes more challenge; you heard me; not less lol), people to talk to, people to laugh at, funny quotes to add to ur bio, etc... and dont forget theres always that rare chance you meet that one in a billion pug thats actally.... well... good. O_O And when you PuG enough and meet enough good people, then you can eventually stop pugging and group with just those good people :D

Anyway, thats kind of my 101 info on pugging...

Please tell me you're being sarcastic...

FYI, I PUG almost all the time, and usually, people know what to do, more or less pull their weight, and don't die in my groups.
I've also done a lot of quests with an auto-fail condition. To take an example, I've done Sleeping Dust 9 times according to the number of stones in my bag, all in PUGs, and I've never failed it.

Frankly I'm astonished at how low a rep PUGs have in the minds of most vets/people in big guilds. Have you even tried it or are you just going on horror stories repeated ad nauseam by your small circle of friends? Maybe they forgot to mention that for every bad PUG, there were 20 groups that went without a hitch?

Since no one's ever replied to my posts on the subject, it seems to me that you WANT to believe PUGs are horrible (maybe in order to make your guild runs or yourself look better, I don't know) and ignore any protest to the contrary.
Instead of believing that PUGs are only made up of completely clueless noobs, maybe you should take into account that:
newbies pretty much have to PUG unless they can get people from RL to join them. If vets refuse to join PUGs, then you pretty much only have yourself to blame if said newbie messes up in your raid group later, since no one took the time to join his groups and try to teach him the ropes.
people who don't want to join guilds or are in small ones and don't like soloing much have to PUG. Those are not the scum of the game, there are plenty of valid reasons not to join big guilds after all.

Feel free to neg rep me for this, but I'm getting really sick of the attitude of veteran forum posters about PUGs, when it's quite clear you don't know what you're talking about.
Repeat after me: one bad or even horrible group every once in a while does not mean most PUGs are bad...

[Lavek]

last few byoh/zerg pug groups I ran was this:

which house?
cher pls? -> ya here you go
http://www.armenianweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/cher.jpg
ppl having so little hp/no fort its awful(doesnt mean much if you know that player knows his stuff, most of the guys that join dont and end up dead in 4 hits)
not having their pots, get low on hp and stay on the back through whole quest
not zerging like they should - I mean, common atleast try a little bit


or maybe we should start writing full words in lfms: bring your own heals and know the quest good because we are gonna do it fast

:/

all the risks you have to get through to group up with people that have same goals, oh well

[ulticleo]

I swore off pugs for a long while. I would only solo or invite guildies. It became a running joke with my guild that if they want to mess with me, they should join me for a quest, get the star, and get some pugs...

Something happened (won't discuss what here), and I decided to be nicer to my fellow ddo'ers. I swore "on" pugs. Every quest that I run now is up on the lfm. every one has byoh in the description, and I take whoever hits the lfm and never boot (even when it is painfully obvious they did not bring their own H). I try my best to be patient. make sure stones are picked up (and ressed, when I can), explain game/quest mechanics when asked, and even share quest.

That being said...

Either I've been lucky, pugs in general have improved, or maybe the "elite, byoh" scares off the newbs. Almost every group I've ran have been great. people are keeping up with me (and once I was the one trying to catch up to the rest of them lol), generally doing their jobs, follow instructions when they don't know the quest, and generally lending themselves to provide the almighty yours truly with a pleasant experience. Sure, there are deaths, and with the elite bravery streak going, a death can easily cost 2k+ xp, but oh well.

So here is a shout out to some memorable pugs who have joined my runs (some names may have changed in my stupor):
battledrow
indigoeyes
sumiki
holycripper
critters
and you, atma :D

cheers,

cornth, corrnth, kornth, clornth, cornthia, and some other ornths (but definitely not corncob :P)

[AMDarkwolf]

tbh i will always defend pugs. Yes, very very *VERY* rarely you will hear me ragin on some pugger, but for the most part, I love teaching, I enjoy meeting new people, and most of all, I love watching others die doing silly things...

And this is, regardless of my posts above, because pugs, for the most part, are a positive experience. Unfortunately, it seems lately many have this 'oh if i die fast they will carry me to the end' mentality. unfortunately sometimes when you 'die' u tak others with you.

[KanedaEX]

Of course it has its flaws, but still. Its an awesome play to settle your toons and make friends with all the great people out there. Even when the language barrier arrives, due to the mass numbers of Chinese players, you still get groups 24/7 for shrouds, epics and etc.

[Unreliable]

Please tell me you're being sarcastic...

FYI, I PUG almost all the time, and usually, people know what to do, more or less pull their weight, and don't die in my groups.
I've also done a lot of quests with an auto-fail condition. To take an example, I've done Sleeping Dust 9 times according to the number of stones in my bag, all in PUGs, and I've never failed it.

Frankly I'm astonished at how low a rep PUGs have in the minds of most vets/people in big guilds. Have you even tried it or are you just going on horror stories repeated ad nauseam by your small circle of friends? Maybe they forgot to mention that for every bad PUG, there were 20 groups that went without a hitch?

Since no one's ever replied to my posts on the subject, it seems to me that you WANT to believe PUGs are horrible (maybe in order to make your guild runs or yourself look better, I don't know) and ignore any protest to the contrary.
Instead of believing that PUGs are only made up of completely clueless noobs, maybe you should take into account that:
newbies pretty much have to PUG unless they can get people from RL to join them. If vets refuse to join PUGs, then you pretty much only have yourself to blame if said newbie messes up in your raid group later, since no one took the time to join his groups and try to teach him the ropes.
people who don't want to join guilds or are in small ones and don't like soloing much have to PUG. Those are not the scum of the game, there are plenty of valid reasons not to join big guilds after all.

Feel free to neg rep me for this, but I'm getting really sick of the attitude of veteran forum posters about PUGs, when it's quite clear you don't know what you're talking about.
Repeat after me: one bad or even horrible group every once in a while does not mean most PUGs are bad...

You obviously dont play on the same level as me, and/or have much different standards.

[ballsz]

It happens from time to time, you occasionally get all the idiots at once. Been there.... it sucks... your turn my friend. :D

[jaegarnel]

You obviously dont play on the same level as me, and/or have much different standards.

Right.
What "standards" do you need exactly other than the group being able to complete the quest in a decent amount of time? It's not rocket science really.

And yes, if you expect the average PUGer to be able to zerg quests fast enough to get more than 1k/xp min, you're bound to be disappointed in most cases, that's true. We usually don't have the gear or the knowledge to zerg efficiently, and we'll probably contribute much less than if you just took another of your multi Tred overgeared friends who completely overpowers whatever content you're running.

That being said, I'm taking my first life, 28 point build, mostly ungeared lvl 14 cleric through GH right now, and through luck of the draw I've mostly joined farming groups by TRs in there. I haven't heard any complaints from them about my performance. I don't believe most PUGers would be an actual hindrance to farming runs.


That is not what you were complaining about, though.
You specifically said that any PUG would mean an auto-fail in quests that can be auto-failed, that death was pretty much guaranteed to happen, that window farming would be impossible, etc...

To which I replied that all of that is completely opposite of my experience, I've completed plenty of quests with failure conditions, I rarely have deaths in my groups, and I've window farmed plenty of quests.


And about your lame retort about being on a "different level", we all play the same game FYI, and it's the same difficulty for everyone. There is no special difficulty for vets only.
No, I haven't played much epics yet. OTOH, I've done pretty much every quest in the game that's available to me (nearly all of the high and mid level packs except sands, inspired quarter and dreaming dark) on elite, either solo or in PUGs.

I'm playing the game at my own pace, I enjoy meeting new people, and I don't care at all about fitting whatever definition of "elite" players you may have, thank you.
If that places us on a "different level", then I think I'm quite happy about that, because something tells me I wouldn't enjoy grouping with you.

[Thaxlsillyia]

There is one guild in general that I avoid because they are always the ones who seem to start swinging at trash on the bases, kill the dogs in HOX, stand where the main tank is supposed to stand, run out in the middle of the shadow room, etc.

At the beginning of any complicated run I do a sound check--most players, even VETS play with their sound too high, and can't hear the party leader or any other pertinent information. If someone does not respond, I dismiss them. I Don't care if people are new or have no gear, give me a group that can listen and I can get them thru anything.

I see idiots from lvl 75+ guild as often as i run into ones from random PUGS. All my toons were leveled exclusively through pugs and to be honest i had more fun running harbor pugs than any other area. They definitely had better attitides and were MUCH more friendly than any of the "elite" guilds/multiple trs. I have characters in 3 different guilds and get different treatments with each. most memorable is when i was rejected from a raid on my melee only to be accepted on my rogue by a raid leader and then told there was some random dood from XXX guild who hit the lfm before you. and we all know how their toons are under geared and have no fortification(giggles everywhere) :D

[Unreliable]

Right.

And yes, if you expect the average PUGer to be able to zerg quests fast enough to get more than 1k/xp min, you're bound to be disappointed in most cases, that's true. \through GH right now, and through luck of the draw

Um, those are my standards.

Like I said... I have high standards, and I dont really care if people think pugs are good learners or nice and friendly people (thats great and when I am in a mood for teaching people or being nice and letting people pike some quick exp then I will let them join), if they are slowing me down to the point I am getting less then 1k/min then they are not my type of people.

Im sorry if that offends you, but like i said... my high standards.

[Ilindith]

and we'll probably contribute much less than if you just took another of your multi Tred overgeared friends who completely overpowers whatever content you're running.


You don't need gear nor many TRs to overpower any content you are running.

[Unreliable]

You obviously dont play on the same level as me, and/or have much different standards.

Neg rep makes me sad :(

[division]

Neg rep makes me sad :(

oh, kinda seemed like you were on a level there where something as insignificant as neg rep wouldn't bother you much.

[Unreliable]

oh, kinda seemed like you were on a level there where something as insignificant as neg rep wouldn't bother you much.

true, but when someone neg reps me for simply expressing my opinion on the matter, it kind of upsets me.

[MorningStarSE]

@OP
.. Aww, but there is something worst then pugger... BLIND/RANDOM INVITE !!! =)

Though between guild group, solo, pickup group and random invite, I can tell you the latter as been the worst experience (and it didn't occurred a lot either). Pug would be 80/20 on good/bad experience. Solo and guild group talk by themselves.

About Shroudage, well it is sure 50% off the pack and increasing raid bosses difficulty didn't help but overall I only got 1 bad pug over.. I don't know, I stopped to count all these runs..

[jaegarnel]

Neg rep makes me sad :(


Well it wasn't me if that's what you're worried about. I can't neg rep anyone, and wouldn't do it anyway to anyone except spammers.


to Ilindith: I agree. I can overpower early content on my first-life alts with just some twink gear and good quest knowledge.

To get more than 1k xp/min in most quests where TRs can get that (i.e. not easy ones to zerg like Litany), however, you need to know the quest by heart, be able to be completely self-sufficient and move fast enough not to be slowed down by red alert.
All I'm saying is that this is probably out of reach for most PUGers.

OTOH, the same people will be perfectly capable on average of completing the quests at a slower pace, which is my point when I say that people are exaggerating how bad PUGs are.

Frankly, my problem is not with vets not joining PUGs. If soloing is more efficient for you, it's fine by me.
My problem is that by exaggerating how bad PUGs are, you're probably scaring away some of your less experienced guildies or forum goers from joining PUGs, which means it's harder for other people to find groups.

[Arsont]

I pug all the time, and almost never have problems with it. I love me some good pugs. Anymore it gets to the point that I pug first and ask guildies last (Even though Cornth, among others, has a toon in my range :O ). Not because I don't like the guild, or I don't like quick easy completions. But hey, someone has to help the pugs, or they'll stay pugs forever. Might as well do my part. Besides, I like a good laugh when I run.

That being said...I have run with a few just HORRIBLE pugs. I don't know if they were trolling, facerolling the keyboard or just total idiots, but they couldn't do well in my groups to save their lives-literally. I'm talking the 0 fort, 100 hp casters trying to run GH quests. I'm not exclusive, and I don't MyDDO people; Everyone that joins has a chance to prove themselves. And most do (Or at least don't make me quadruple facepalm when running with them).

Poor Atma...looks like you're just being a magnet to all the bad pugs lately. Trust in the pugs! You'll find some decent ones...eventually.

[UrbanPyro]

Deleted.

[cdr]

Was in a Shroud PUG yesterday. "Leader" is clearly clueless, but that happens often enough and usually the rest just carry the leader since even most puggers know what to do in the Shroud.

Start part 1. Two arcanes in the group and three divines, and not a single one of them is killing trash. Also, only one of the divines is even attempting to heal as the trash piles up on the melees trying to beat down the portals.

Portal keeper spawn message happens, I think fine, surely the arcanes know enough to at least go find and kill it. Second portal keeper message happens, and I'm the only one the least bit concerned. "Leader": "Oh, it's no problem, keepers are squishy." I give up at this point. A few seconds later, third portal keeper message. Part 1 failure.

But 19 out of 20 Shroud PUGs are fine, even if it takes twice as long to complete than a zerg.

[Original]

I am really getting sick of this, and it has to be said, although chances are the ones I am 'ranting' about are not forum goers, but still...

Sarlona has this new wave of people, many of them TRs(So have been around some time, the 'new' excuse don't fly) where they seem to purposely do exactly the opposite of whats said. Every pug I make, every quest I run, if there's someone in the group that I don't specifically know, that person WILL do this. Whether its 'do not kill X mob' (And he will go out of his way to target and attack THOSE first, even if that fails the quest) or 'please kill mob X before u finish quest(and this type of person will train 30 of them along behind him/her refusing to touch them.

Am really quit sick of it, the above are only 2 examples, but its enough to illustrate the issue. I'm sure a lot of the response will be 'so don't pug' but this is a MMO, meeting and cooperating with new people is the lifeblood of what the game is about. I suffer this occasionally before, and it was fine, but this TR, during this life, this is almost a constant.

In the past I've always strongly defended pugs in the 'don't know them, dont accept them' mentality of some of sarlonas 'elite' - I guess I'm just getting all of the bad apples thrown in my face all at once this life?

Oh and to the clown who suggested 'well don't say it then' tried that... if ppl don't know what to do, they will make mistakes, which is fine, but shorting the learning curve helps them out.

This may shock the people who know me but I am going to say something nice o.O!
I have been gone almost 6 months. And have been doing nothing but pugging since ive comeback.
I still notice the noobs, froobs, etc... but everyone seems to listen, stick together as group even thou there gear and brains is lacking... minus the Hound I ran :P. It almost reminds me of the good ol days when the cap was 10!

[GrayScioto]

I like the OP have noticed that the quality of the pugs I join are somewhat lacking compared to the those I joined early in my time in DDO. When my cleric first got to the Shroud, I went many runs without a wipe. Granted, I have only completed the Shroud nine with another 20-30 DDoor exits, but that has been over a long enough period of time to see a trend. Now I would say it is 50/50 on finishing and this was before U11. I can't honest say that I can put my finger on the cause of the decline.

Given the "decline in pug quality" and the changes in U11, I was very leery of joining a Shroud raid after the update. On Friday I gave it a shot and joined a Shroud. As far as I could tell we had the perfect group with three healers ( me being the backup) and enough DPS. I think we were missing a bard so maybe we were just sub-perfect. The players were mostly vets some of whom I have heard of. We started on hard and it went textbook 1-4. Harry was just too hard. The two main healers did everything perfectly as far as I could tell. Their heals were staggered and I has spot healing and mass curing when the red bars got at 50%. Harry just lasted too long. Maybe we need more DPS but since we had a fighter, barb, monk and a couple of rogues and the fact that I couldn't eve get a second DP on the portals in section one before then went down you would think we should have been fine.

We reformed and got ready to try it again. In the entrance many of us noticed that an infamous player on Sarlona had joined us. We all had doubts that the run would be successful even with five healers. ( Maybe because of five healers) But, we went on. Part one went fine but in part two, SOMEONE started a red named parade in the middle of the zone and 1, 2, 3 wipe. We all had a laugh, booted the guy and restarted.

The last try was on normal with a perfect group minus a bard. One each caster, three healers and assorted melee types. The run went perfectly and was fun. Like the leaders said, it was not the fastest run he had ever had but it was the most fun. We were still giggling about the previous two wipe and the better players had time to crack jokes. Me being a gimp healer had my hands full keeping up with my more skilled peers.

Point is if folks are good humored, just the experience of playing can be a win and eventually the group can make it through if they are willing to go at it at normal. I think the buffs to the bosses were a bridge too far for most of the population and I hope that the Devs find a better way to provide the powergamers a challenge while keeping the moderately skilled players in the mix.

Regardless, there are still some good, solid veterans out there who are willing to pug with folks and just laugh and try again when they come up fifteen cents short.

[Tembyr]

I would think I am they kind of guy that makes the PUG fail the raid, but to be honest I cannot remember the last time I have failed a raid. Shroud, ToD, etc: I click a random PUG and everything works out. Perhaps I am just lucky.

Hmm, to be honest I do remember the last raid I failed. "So who got the lever before we killed the Reaver?".

[drewrayder]

so glad i solo everything til about 14, or my wife plays healer with me, either way, i dont deal with this problem each tr i do.

[Munesai]

I blame myself..

I leave the LFM open not caring who joins, and by the time someone does, I'm well in progress.
I don't care when they come in and I don't wait either, I just go about my business, leaving the LFM open brings a change of pace and some excitement. When people die, I might not bother..I know they will soon rez out and leave group.
When people catch up, usually they are great and we go about destroying the dungeon.

I'm far too aloof to be an effective leader...

However, If I join a group, I do all the good things that people in groups need to do. Like pay attention, do things the leader wants to do and not touch anything.