Why do mnemonic potions need to be so rare?

[Qaliya]

Maybe this has been raised in some of the other threads about the buffing of raid bosses, but as a newbie I've never understood why mnemonic enhancement potions are so rare -- relative to demand -- and thus so expensive. Okay, you can argue that making them cheap would make casters very powerful, but we already have cheap healing potions and lots of other items that are quite cheap as well. It seems arbitrary to make these potions so pricey by restricting their supply severely. Making them more plentiful might be a somewhat easy way to reduce the impact of making bosses so hard.

[Xeraphim]

Mnemonics used to be a for-sale item back in the very early days of DDO. They may need to be sold in a shop again if the developers keep making Epic Raids more difficult, to keep up with newer player needs. Of course, in many cases, for Hard and Elite raids now the mnemonics are starting to become a problem for those without Epic level gear (whether they have actual Epic items or not).

I'm always focused on the new players. Many forum dwellers focus only on themselves and their friends, but I focus on those I may never meet. I want your game to be better.

For those with an abundance of monetary wealth (net income greater than $50/month), I strongly recommend that you try out a stack of 100 of the strongest Turbine Store Mnemonic potions with a Savant (Sorcerer) of your particular preference. It is tremendously liberating.

[dkyle]

SP pots are massively more powerful than HP pots. They should be rare.

They should be nerfed (add a long cooldown), not made more plentiful.

[lhidda]

Cash $$

[jaegarnel]

One word: money.
Sp pots are sold in the store, if Turbine made them more common as loot and in end rewards, they'd make less money selling them to casters who don't mind paying to win.

[Chai]

SP pots are massively more powerful than HP pots. They should be rare.

They should be nerfed (add a long cooldown), not made more plentiful.

I agree with this as long as the best players with the best gear can beat the high end stuff on the toughest difficulty with either no potion usage or small quantity potion usage.

I will not agree if a 12 person group has to collectively chug 60-80 potions just to beat that same content.

[Rubiconn]

I dont run a healer currently but am starting to level one up.

On my wizard I dont buy pots off the AH, i think it is more important to learn to use SP efficiently. Making pots cheaper will make people lazy, not worry about damage mitigation and just assume the healer can get some pots to fix it. Im not trying to flame you but there are lots of achievable mnemonic clickies to be had out there for planar shards, and other collectables. Until guild renown showed up I always took pots as an end reward and anytime now that I have to opportunity to grab a major on any toon I take it, transfer it to my caster(or my better half who runs a healer).

just my 2 cents, I wouldnt mind a higher drop rate but that has the feeling of an easy button. They are valuable and should remain as so.

[Splatterfart]

I don't personally see them as exceedingly rare. I have a stack of 100 major elixirs from chests on my raid healer now. I use a few here and there, but keep them replenished by funneling the potions I do receive on my alternate characters back to my healer. It's also been my experience that if you do "make the difference" in a raid by drinking a pot or two most folks are inclined to toss you one here and there. A lot of melees actually keep 2 or 3 major pots on hand to help replenish their raid healers.

Then again, were I a non-healer I may feel differently. I can see how a raiding arcane may need to drink some spell points from time to time with little to no thanks for their efforts and/or investment.

[Xeraphim]

SP pots are massively more powerful than HP pots. They should be rare.

They should be nerfed (add a long cooldown), not made more plentiful.

I would support this change if the content was deliberately balanced to avoid the usage of mnemonic potions altogether. Currently, some of the content is far more difficult than other content seemingly by sheer accident. The probability that there is simply a disagreement between developers on how challenging content should be is fairly low, considering Turbine has to work in a strong team environment for the level of expectation on them.

[dkyle]

I agree with this as long as the best players with the best gear can beat the high end stuff on the toughest difficulty with either no potion usage or small quantity potion usage.

I will not agree if a 12 person group has to collectively chug 60-80 potions just to beat that same content.

The best way to ensure this is to make it impossible to chug our way through Raids. If this makes a Raid impossible, there will be pressure to modify the Raid. After all, Titan and Abbot were "impossible" for a while, and they got fixed. But as long as we can chug our way through, there's a profit motive to make chugging pots necessary, since that is likely to mean more store sales.

I say, add a 2 minute cooldown, and make the pots only work if the user is under 200 SP currently (to mitigate pressure to drink preemptively). This would allow emergency use, but wouldn't allow a group to use them as a crutch.

[MrkGrismer]

I don't think it is so much that they are rare as demand is incredibly high. I don't use them very much myself, but I also don't raid very much.

Although there have been some times on my wizard where I could see how one could get quite addicted to those little blue bottles. I don't think it is much of an issue for non wiz/sor.

It would be nice if they could be bought from an in-game vendor, even if they where pretty pricey.

[Xeraphim]

The best way to ensure this is to make it impossible to chug our way through Raids. If this makes a Raid impossible, there will be pressure to modify the Raid. After all, Titan and Abbot were "impossible" for a while, and they got fixed. But as long as we can chug our way through, there's a profit motive to make chugging pots necessary, since that is likely to mean more store sales.

I say, add a 2 minute cooldown, and make the pots only work if the user is under 200 SP currently (to mitigate pressure to drink preemptively). This would allow emergency use, but wouldn't allow a group to use them as a crutch.


So you also identify the problem and propose a different solution that doesn't address the problem that causes the use of mnemonics and may result in additional healer or support distress.

Consider being the healer and a rogue PuG you brought along to ToD dies 3 times at the end fight, filling Horoth's HP to full. You are going to want a second SP bar equal to your first just to keep up with demand. A 2 minute cooldown would result in that rogue ostracized from half the server for forgetting to bring heavy fortification (and a failed raid/angry group of people that rightly should have had a good night otherwise). This is not an event that actually occurred, and things like the Reckless song and Improved Sunder could likewise enable said hypothetical character to take far too much damage too fast (fort reduced below 100% for long enough to take 1-2 crits in a row before the healer can get to him/her). A cooldown is not going to be a good idea.

I'd appreciate your consideration of this point of view in another proposition.

[somenewnoob]

If they really want to make some money they should sell some cure potions in the store that recover all your hp for you when you chug one.

That way melee's can spend some real life $$$ too and not just the poor healers.

(I have both, I know how it is on each side)

[Lyzernn]

If SP pots were abundant, non-Spellcasting classes would be non-factors in a world of magic.

[Bodic]

Here are some stances on Memnonic.

They are plentifull, and easy to acquire so I(not me) expect you to use them to carry me(not me).

They are overpowering, and give blue bar classes an unfair advantage.

Now facts:

They are used to cure feeblmind. I have been hit by it in Wiz King for certain. I am sure it is used elsewhere.

They are not sold in a Vendor therefore not easy to acquire. The DDOstore is not a vendor that is a store.

If they where sold in a Vendor then they would become OVERPOWERED even if sold at a rate of 100kpp I personally would buy a 1000 stack the second they became available. not that I actually have 100Mpp but you get the idea.

[jaegarnel]

So you also identify the problem and propose a different solution that doesn't address the problem that causes the use of mnemonics and may result in additional healer or support distress.

Consider being the healer and a rogue PuG you brought along to ToD dies 3 times at the end fight, filling Horoth's HP to full. You are going to want a second SP bar equal to your first just to keep up with demand. A 2 minute cooldown would result in that rogue ostracized from half the server for forgetting to bring heavy fortification (and a failed raid/angry group of people that rightly should have had a good night otherwise). This is not an event that actually occurred, and things like the Reckless song and Improved Sunder could likewise enable said hypothetical character to take far too much damage too fast (fort reduced below 100% for long enough to take 1-2 crits in a row before the healer can get to him/her). A cooldown is not going to be a good idea.

I'd appreciate your consideration of this point of view in another proposition.

I see your point, but if the rogue PUG dies three time, then he wasn't ready for ToD, shouldn't have joined the LFM and probably deserves to be blacklisted from endgame until he proves he's become up to par.

I'd actually like a cooldown on sp pots (though 2 minutes is too long, somewhere around 30 sec would be enough) simply because it would force groups to use good tactics instead of simply using brute force and paying for completion.
If that made some content virtually impossible to complete (I've heard that the new raids on epic require a preposterous amount of resources atm for instance) then so be it.
People will just need to use the good old methods of wiping until you develop better tactics, or of whining on the forums until the content is made easier.

[thwart]

If they really want to make some money they should sell some cure potions in the store that recover all your hp for you when you chug one.

That way melee's can spend some real life $$$ too and not just the poor healers.

(I have both, I know how it is on each side)

or sell a potion that casts that spell on you that you get in the Grotto ... the spell that prevents you from dying. That could make them a few electrum pieces.

[dkyle]

Consider being the healer and a rogue PuG you brought along to ToD dies 3 times at the end fight, filling Horoth's HP to full. You are going to want a second SP bar equal to your first just to keep up with demand. A 2 minute cooldown would result in that rogue ostracized from half the server for forgetting to bring heavy fortification (and a failed raid/angry group of people that rightly should have had a good night otherwise). This is not an event that actually occurred, and things like the Reckless song and Improved Sunder could likewise enable said hypothetical character to take far too much damage too fast (fort reduced below 100% for long enough to take 1-2 crits in a row before the healer can get to him/her). A cooldown is not going to be a good idea.

Overall, sounds like a great thing. Poor playing should have consequences. Poorly executed Raids should fail. No challenge, no fun. And challenge means accepting that things are likely to fail sometimes.

If a character can't afford the -10% fortification, they shouldn't accept Recklessness. I don't think anything in ToD uses Improved Sunder, but even if it does, a Rogue should be able to take a couple crits without going down. If the Rogue is too squishy to survive, to the point that they die 3 times, they are simply not prepared to be running that Raid.

Ideally, I would hope that with genuine challenge (success vs. failure instead of just how many pots people are willing to spend), the droprates of Raid loot could be increased. If the average success rate is cut in half, and the droprate is doubled, the expected amount of Raid loot being given out over time remains the same, but the game is more exciting, and playing well is rewarded more. All good things, as far as I'm concerned.

[somenewnoob]

or sell a potion that casts that spell on you that you get in the Grotto ... the spell that prevents you from dying. That could make them a few electrum pieces.

Aye!! lol I'd buy it!

[susiedupfer]

I dont run a healer currently but am starting to level one up.

On my wizard I dont buy pots off the AH, i think it is more important to learn to use SP efficiently. Making pots cheaper will make people lazy, not worry about damage mitigation and just assume the healer can get some pots to fix it. Im not trying to flame you but there are lots of achievable mnemonic clickies to be had out there for planar shards, and other collectables. Until guild renown showed up I always took pots as an end reward and anytime now that I have to opportunity to grab a major on any toon I take it, transfer it to my caster(or my better half who runs a healer).

just my 2 cents, I wouldnt mind a higher drop rate but that has the feeling of an easy button. They are valuable and should remain as so.

I play ALL healers. No arcane, no evasion, no melee. I use those SP pots to HEAL OTHER PEOPLE. Not for me. I can use RS to heal me. It is not me that needs to learn better sp management, but the rest of the party that needs to learn to fight in a single location so that I can make the best use of my sp while keeping everyone healed. Point made?

And, might I add, people assuming that the healers can and will use unlimited pots is a huge problem. Some raids I use 160k (Yes, 160,000)pp OR MORE trying to heal. Does any other class use as much pp PER RAID? I think not. The scarcity of major mnemonics is driving people away from playing healers. Just what we need...fewer healers. I am currently in the mood with the recent changes to the UI(making it far more difficult to heal groups) to just TR into something much easier and cheaper. And if I feel this way, many others do also.

So, you melee and arcane types, next time you think of talking about keeping major mnemonic pots so rare and so very expensive, remember who you are really hurting in the long run...yourself.

[dkyle]

And, might I add, people assuming that the healers can and will use unlimited pots is a huge problem. Some raids I use 160k (Yes, 160,000)pp OR MORE trying to heal. Does any other class use as much pp PER RAID? I think not. The scarcity of major mnemonics is driving people away from playing healers.

I say stop chugging them unless you're given assurances of reimbursement. Let the fools fail if they're playing that badly.

But I do wonder if you're healing as efficiently as possible. Do you use scrolls? They're dirt cheap, compared to pots, and could save you a lot. Do you put yourself with the melees so they get aura healing? Do you let them go down as far as safely possible before popping the mass heal? I see a lot of healers that frantically mass heal every time someone takes a sliver of damage...

[Qaliya]

I play ALL healers. No arcane, no evasion, no melee. I use those SP pots to HEAL OTHER PEOPLE. Not for me. I can use RS to heal me. It is not me that needs to learn better sp management, but the rest of the party that needs to learn to fight in a single location so that I can make the best use of my sp while keeping everyone healed. Point made?

I think this is really the crux of my point.

I'm a newb, only level 13 first life, only raids have been Chronoscope twice (and hated nearly every minute of them, a separate discussion). But I already have people telling me I "need" to buy stacks of heal scrolls because I'll "have" to use them. Um, I'm new enough that a stack of heal scrolls is a big chunk of my personal wealth. And those are only 160 pp or whatever. I can't even imagine being told I "need" to buy stacks of 20k potions.

I already see people in groups begging for healers. And when I try to answer those requests, I inevitably find it impossible to heal everyone because they run all over the place. Pumping up the bosses while not making it feasible for healers to do more healing without spending a fortune is pretty soon going to make life hard for everyone.

[Hokiewa]

So, you melee and arcane types, next time you think of talking about keeping major mnemonic pots so rare and so very expensive, remember who you are really hurting in the long run...yourself.

That's absurd. If I continually run with anyone that constantly needs to chug pots in non-epic quests, then yes I am hurting myself by running with people that don't manage spell points properly.

[Bodic]

The best way to ensure this is to make it impossible to chug our way through Raids. If this makes a Raid impossible, there will be pressure to modify the Raid. After all, Titan and Abbot were "impossible" for a while, and they got fixed. But as long as we can chug our way through, there's a profit motive to make chugging pots necessary, since that is likely to mean more store sales.

I say, add a 2 minute cooldown, and make the pots only work if the user is under 200 SP currently (to mitigate pressure to drink preemptively). This would allow emergency use, but wouldn't allow a group to use them as a crutch.


Please go READ the description of the potion in question. The dispels feeblemind part.
http://itemwiki.cubicleninja.com/images/items/item_91.png

The Titan I know for a fact was never a matter of SP for success. BCB back in 2006 when it was beaten first which by the way they used a mechanic that was fixed.
I know I beat it on Elite in Jan 2007 The issue was never about SP/HP my rogue could maintain himself pretty good. The Issue was with Aggro and moving the AI as in getting the pillars to drop correctly without bugging/missing him. To Abbot I have no honest clue I pretty much avoided that raid.

[dkyle]

I think this is really the crux of my point.

I'm a newb, only level 13 first life, only raids have been Chronoscope twice (and hated nearly every minute of them, a separate discussion). But I already have people telling me I "need" to buy stacks of heal scrolls because I'll "have" to use them. Um, I'm new enough that a stack of heal scrolls is a big chunk of my personal wealth. And those are only 160 pp or whatever. I can't even imagine being told I "need" to buy stacks of 20k potions.

They might be a bit expensive to you now, but once you get into heavy endgame Raiding, they'll be chump change. They're an enormously potent tool for a healer.

Anyone who tells you that you "need" to buy stacks of SP pots is a fool. Carry enough that you have some for occasional use, and so you can use them immediately when someone promises to reimburse you (so you don't need to pass pots in the middle of combat). I'd say about a dozen. But you should not be burning through them on a regular basis.

[dkyle]

Please go READ the description of the potion in question. The dispels feeblemind part.

Yeah, Feeblemind's a fair point. But that's hardly the main point of SP pots. I'd rather just make lesser restore pots cure it, than let that stand in the way of fixing SP pots.


The Titan I know for a fact was never a matter of SP for success. BCB back in 2006 when it was beaten first which by the way they used a mechanic that was fixed.
I know I beat it on Elite in Jan 2007 The issue was never about SP/HP my rogue could maintain himself pretty good. The Issue was with Aggro and moving the AI as in getting the pillars to drop correctly without bugging/missing him. To Abbot I have no honest clue I pretty much avoided that raid.

Wasn't claiming otherwise. Just pointing out that impossible Raids get fixed.

[Hokiewa]

Yeah, Feeblemind's a fair point. But that's hardly the main point of SP pots. I'd rather just make lesser restore pots cure it, than let that stand in the way of fixing SP pots.



Wasn't claiming otherwise. Just pointing out that impossible Raids get fixed.

The availability of lesser/minor sp pots as rewards during the lower level grind makes the use of feeblemind removal easy.

[Chai]

The best way to ensure this is to make it impossible to chug our way through Raids. If this makes a Raid impossible, there will be pressure to modify the Raid. After all, Titan and Abbot were "impossible" for a while, and they got fixed. But as long as we can chug our way through, there's a profit motive to make chugging pots necessary, since that is likely to mean more store sales.

I say, add a 2 minute cooldown, and make the pots only work if the user is under 200 SP currently (to mitigate pressure to drink preemptively). This would allow emergency use, but wouldn't allow a group to use them as a crutch.

I think they would have to give more mana than they do if theres a 2 min cooldown with a threshold where they can even be drank. You are basically limiting each person on the raid to 1 potion per encounter at that point.

If it is expected that players have such a hard limit to their resource consumption, then I feel it is equally expected that the content is beatable sans mana potion usage, regularly by say the top 10% of each server population, in the very least.

This also comes down to what people feel "using mana potions as a crutch" entails. Most people agree that at some point there is a distinction between powering a group through with a few pots, -vs- people that should have failed beating it due to crutch mana potion usage. Where does the majority draw the line? 0 pots? 2 pots? 5? 10? Back up the truck? :p

[dkyle]

The availability of lesser/minor sp pots as rewards during the lower level grind makes the use of feeblemind removal easy.

Yes, it does, currently. But I suggested adding a long cooldown. I think SP recovery should have a long cooldown. Removal of feeblemind shouldn't.

[Satinavian]

I play ALL healers. No arcane, no evasion, no melee. I use those SP pots to HEAL OTHER PEOPLE. Not for me. I can use RS to heal me. It is not me that needs to learn better sp management, but the rest of the party that needs to learn to fight in a single location so that I can make the best use of my sp while keeping everyone healed. Point made?

And, might I add, people assuming that the healers can and will use unlimited pots is a huge problem. Some raids I use 160k (Yes, 160,000)pp OR MORE trying to heal. Does any other class use as much pp PER RAID? I think not. The scarcity of major mnemonics is driving people away from playing healers. Just what we need...fewer healers. I am currently in the mood with the recent changes to the UI(making it far more difficult to heal groups) to just TR into something much easier and cheaper. And if I feel this way, many others do also.

So, you melee and arcane types, next time you think of talking about keeping major mnemonic pots so rare and so very expensive, remember who you are really hurting in the long run...yourself.
Also love playing healers - but that doesn't mean using pots in quests. Pots are for situations, where things go seriously wrong and you should fail, but somehow really really want to succeed.

If i don't like the group very much, ore need the completion very badly (rarely the case) i never use a pot and accept failure like i should.

If the new quests require pots, i will fail them and don't bother until they become easier. And they will become easier if no one runs them.

[Bodic]

The feeblemind is there they would need to change up a few peices of coding for that I know not how it would work easy to complicated.

I agree that is not the main point I carry the baby pots for feeblemind like a10 stack or what ever and use Majors for SP refresh it is not often that they are used I can say when trying to push content low manned yes, as common use I will say never more than 1 in anything. I would rather use none. I just don't like the Idea of a timer as that leads into you MUST HAVE a Bauble and Epic Spell Store. Now if I had an Epic Spell storing ring I dont think I would ever drink Mnemonic Enhancer for any reason other than to cure feeblemind as rare as that is, but placing a timer on the pot would that also place timers on the items.

[grodon9999]

I think they would have to give more mana than they do if theres a 2 min cooldown with a threshold where they can even be drank. You are basically limiting each person on the raid to 1 potion per encounter at that point.



No, they need to design the encounters with this limited SP in mind.

[dkyle]

I think they would have to give more mana than they do if theres a 2 min cooldown with a threshold where they can even be drank. You are basically limiting each person on the raid to 1 potion per encounter at that point.

One per encounter sounds entirely reasonable to me. A pot to eek things through if the situation gets a little hairy.


If it is expected that players have such a hard limit to their resource consumption, then I feel it is equally expected that the content is beatable sans mana potion usage, regularly by say the top 10% of each server population, in the very least.

That seems reasonable.


This also comes down to what people feel "using mana potions as a crutch" entails. Most people agree that at some point there is a distinction between powering a group through with a few pots, -vs- people that should have failed beating it due to crutch mana potion usage. Where does the majority draw the line? 0 pots? 2 pots? 5? 10? Back up the truck? :p

Can't speak to the majority, but more than 2 pots in a boss fight starts to get excessive, to me. But in my experience, a run tends to be either very few pots (a run with a minor hiccup), or a ton of them (a run where things went very badly, and probably should've failed). The distinction is usually pretty clear, in context.

[Templarion]

I disagree.

Mnemonics are not rare. I find them quite plentiful.

[Qaliya]

I disagree.

Mnemonics are not rare. I find them quite plentiful.

The people saying this are being obtuse. I specifically said they are rare relative to demand. There aren't any other potions in the game that sell for 10,000 to 20,000 pp that I'm aware of. When replenishing mana costs 100 times more than replenishing health, and there's no way to even buy them in-game in quantity, that's deliberately-imposed rarity. Some people may think that is a good thing, but you cannot deny that they are rare compared to most other consumables.

[jaegarnel]

I play ALL healers. No arcane, no evasion, no melee. I use those SP pots to HEAL OTHER PEOPLE. Not for me. I can use RS to heal me. It is not me that needs to learn better sp management, but the rest of the party that needs to learn to fight in a single location so that I can make the best use of my sp while keeping everyone healed. Point made?

And, might I add, people assuming that the healers can and will use unlimited pots is a huge problem. Some raids I use 160k (Yes, 160,000)pp OR MORE trying to heal. Does any other class use as much pp PER RAID? I think not. The scarcity of major mnemonics is driving people away from playing healers. Just what we need...fewer healers. I am currently in the mood with the recent changes to the UI(making it far more difficult to heal groups) to just TR into something much easier and cheaper. And if I feel this way, many others do also.

So, you melee and arcane types, next time you think of talking about keeping major mnemonic pots so rare and so very expensive, remember who you are really hurting in the long run...yourself.

I've recently capped a first-life cleric on another server than my main, so 28 point build and no twink gear. Despite doing some rather tough content for an ungeared character (elite VoN at level, elite Amrath quests), I have yet to use a major sp pot, and that's despite using most of my sp in many quests to cast offensive spells.
I have used a few greaters after they were given to me by a guildie and some heal scrolls, most of which were drops or gifts.

If you're using lots of sp pots outside of tough elite/epic raids, then either you're paying for the completion of groups who don't deserve to complete or you should learn better sp conservation skills, imo.

Either way, don't blame it on other people, if there are stupid players in your group who can't keep in range of your heals, just let them die.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

I'd be snarky and say "so you buy em from teh TP store", but the other non-xp/loot boosting stuff is buyable in game. It's already easy enough for anyone with plat to buy stacks of them off the AH; making them common would provide an unlimited source of nuking and healing, and make the game even more easy mode than it is. (Tho i haven't played the higher level stuff tjhey just buffed.)



If you're using lots of sp pots outside of tough elite/epic raids, then either you're paying for the completion of groups who don't deserve to complete or you should learn better sp conservation skills, imo.

Either way, don't blame it on other people, if there are stupid players in your group who can't keep in range of your heals, just let them die.

/this. totally agree, get in da chahpa if you want to live. or just run away from the heals and die;) Choice and free will!

[Callavan]

It seems to me they're actually a lot less rare now than they were a couple of years ago. When I first started playing in '09 it was nearly a miracle to find any at all; I am now finding them on a somewhat regular basis. Still not often enough to use them all the time, but more often than I used to.

Of course, I'm now seeing them come up as end-of-quest rewards sometimes. That may have something to do with it...

[Miow]

Personally i think they should be removed from the game instead of injecting more hp and fort into end bosses.

[Kalari]

As a player who would say about 75 percent of my alts are spell point users I will say this pots are not supposed to be the way to get threw content.

When things are in a pinch during hard/elite/epic raids sure its nice to have them. But if your running threw normal content and feel the need to chug a potion then something is wrong with the group your in.

On top of that there are certain areas (Orchard and Gianthold) for sure that give mana pots in chest and as end rewards and are a great place to build your stock pile. If you have an alt who does not use a spell point bar start saving on them to. My method is to keep one put one to the side to give to a divine or arcane who is in a raid with me who really needed them. That way I contribute to a party member who helped me complete a tough challenge yet have my own stock pile to pass out to my mana users as well.

For new players the challenge of stockpiling is hard but not impossible, it just takes learning how to heal your own way if your a divine, learning you should not go beyond your capabilities to keep bad players up. If they are not close enough for a heal or spread out you are not at fault if they die period. It is not your job as a divine to keep up those who do not think about the group in whole and think they can act invincible since someone is babysitting their health bars.

As for store potions yes they can be nice but Id hate for new players to believe that they have to use real money to play this game effectively. SP management is the best way to avoid ever having to feel the need to "chug" threw content and with the exception of new raids till a strategy is developed I just do not see any need to ever over saturate with mana potions. That is just my opinion on this granted I have been around for awhile I remember feeling the same way as the OP though in my early days playing a cleric now that I have learned the ins and out of it trust me when I say once you find your comfort point in playing the class you will find these issues fade away and that mana potions become a non issue for sure.

[Foxhound3857]

Raid encounters and whether a team succeeds or fails at it should be determined by that teams SKILL and DISCIPLINE in working together, NOT by how many resources they can afford to burn through in record time. The whole point of SP pots is to give a spellcasters the ability to carry on the fight if a Rest shrine isn't available, or cannot be used at the moment. It's not meant to take the place of a group wipe in the face of failure.

The problem is this: If that Rogue died 3 times within one encounter, then yes, he or she is not ready to run this particular raid yet, and should work on improving his or her skill and equipment. However, if the healers/spellcasters are relying on a mountain of SP pots to get them through the fight, then essentially, they are not ready to be running that raid either. Being on par with a specific raid, in my mind, means being able to work as a team, do your job, having the correct gear, and CAREFULLY MANAGING YOUR AVAILABLE RESOURCES.

If you need two or three SP pots to get through the rest of the fight, that's fine, that's what they're there for. If you're chugging them by the dozens simply because you have the money to afford them, whether you need them or not, shows a serious lack of skill and discipline to your class. They're meant to be used in an emergency, not as a replacement for skill and knowledge.

So shame on you fighters and monks for holding on to such a precious resource that would benefit you in the long run by donating to your fellow healers, but shame on you healers for having to rely on them so much because you don't know how to play your class. You're essentially biting the hand that feeds.

[Airgeadlam]

Raid encounters and whether a team succeeds or fails at it should be determined by that teams SKILL and DISCIPLINE in working together, NOT by how many resources they can afford to burn through in record time. The whole point of SP pots is to give a spellcasters the ability to carry on the fight if a Rest shrine isn't available, or cannot be used at the moment. It's not meant to take the place of a group wipe in the face of failure.

The problem is this: If that Rogue died 3 times within one encounter, then yes, he or she is not ready to run this particular raid yet, and should work on improving his or her skill and equipment. However, if the healers/spellcasters are relying on a mountain of SP pots to get them through the fight, then essentially, they are not ready to be running that raid either. Being on par with a specific raid, in my mind, means being able to work as a team, do your job, having the correct gear, and CAREFULLY MANAGING YOUR AVAILABLE RESOURCES.

If you need two or three SP pots to get through the rest of the fight, that's fine, that's what they're there for. If you're chugging them by the dozens simply because you have the money to afford them, whether you need them or not, shows a serious lack of skill and discipline to your class. They're meant to be used in an emergency, not as a replacement for skill and knowledge.

So shame on you fighters and monks for holding on to such a precious resource that would benefit you in the long run by donating to your fellow healers, but shame on you healers for having to rely on them so much because you don't know how to play your class. You're essentially biting the hand that feeds.

+1 to you for being able to see the two sides of the same coin.

Now, talking from my personal experience: I play (mostly) four toons. Two of them are melee, two are healers. All of them have a stack of SP potions in their inventory. All. Even the melees. Granted, the melee's one is smaller, usually 5 major sp potions. The other 2 have like... 20 and 30 potions. Whenever I needed to drink a potion, I got another waiting on end chest. So drop rate for them is fairly high (at least, I say this again, in my gaming experience: when running vale quests for stones/ings I have a major pot on end reward list at least 80% of time).

And I also agree with the idea that chugging 20 potions on a raid to complete is not the way to go. If your potion consumption is too high, then either you are not prepared as healer, or the rest of the party is not doing their job. And I'm not saying this as if I'm an uber player with epic geared and multiTR toons, but someone with 1st life toons who tries to rationally evaluate all situations. As an example, after reading multiple posts about it, the first time I healed the Horoth's tank in ToD (normal run, btw) I was so afraid of the feared disintegrate, with the idea of "never let the tank go under 2/3 of his life, is too risky" that I had to use, in the end.. maybe 5 pots + using the bauble + Heal Scrolls. Later I knew that the party's DPS on Sully was not as good as it should be, just because they recognized that, but I also knew I was doing something wrong and there was place for improvement on my performance, so yeah, I used potions because I did it wrong, so even when potions were offered I rejected them. Was MY fault, not theirs. And I've also been in other raids where, trying to do my job, people didn't follow instructions, acted on their own and (since I wanted the completion) I drank potions as well. Then I did fine my job (cept in the part of giving them a completion via potions) and they did not. Now I am a bit more "mean" while healing. Out of range? no heals. Headless chicken running? no heals. No mobs nearby + player at 10%hp + not a single cure potion used within minutes? Ooooh man, backpack run in process. Too low hp on a boss fight? Better have evasion, be ranged or assume you're gonna be dead till the fight is over (adjusting casting times to the lowest hp member in a party, when the hp difference is too much is a suicidal sp use).

[Vormaerin]

Spell pots have been relatively rare almost since the beginning. Certainly long before the store existed.

Players come to DDO thinking that our mana pots are like those in Diablo 2 or other such games: something you are expected to use. They never played in the era when shrines didn't reset, there was no "echoes of power", no Korthos necklace, and no eternal wands.

So its hard to expect that they'd realize that characters are expected to get from shrine to shrine without using any potions, including during raids. What results is players who don't learn to be efficient, who don't think about when to use metamagics and when not to, etc.

There is all this talk about "what if I need a bazillion pots to get through the content?", but that is really just a way of saying "what if I am not ready for the content, but want to do it anyway?" Frankly, I'm fine with those players paying cash to support my gaming, though I'd rather they learned how to play without the potions.

[hecate355]

I play ALL healers. No arcane, no evasion, no melee. I use those SP pots to HEAL OTHER PEOPLE. Not for me. I can use RS to heal me. It is not me that needs to learn better sp management, but the rest of the party that needs to learn to fight in a single location so that I can make the best use of my sp while keeping everyone healed. Point made?

And, might I add, people assuming that the healers can and will use unlimited pots is a huge problem. Some raids I use 160k (Yes, 160,000)pp OR MORE trying to heal. Does any other class use as much pp PER RAID? I think not. The scarcity of major mnemonics is driving people away from playing healers. Just what we need...fewer healers. I am currently in the mood with the recent changes to the UI(making it far more difficult to heal groups) to just TR into something much easier and cheaper. And if I feel this way, many others do also.

So, you melee and arcane types, next time you think of talking about keeping major mnemonic pots so rare and so very expensive, remember who you are really hurting in the long run...yourself.

dont go down that pathway, no1 has never had any power over your actions as cleric, they have no means or whatsoever to make you chug the pots, its really that simple.

if anyone feels their clerics being huge drain on the wallet, please go read this thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202343

its in slightly humorous setting, but there is fundamental truth to be found

[Vanquishedfo]

Since raiding is the least active part of DDO with maybe 5% of people focussing on raid and epic content there is about as much reason to nerf SP pots as there is to nerf anything connected with PVP as both equal about as pointless a use of dev time as we can get.

I say stop making/tweeking raids entirely as they always end up being a huge waste of development time as the DDO devs still have 0 clue how to actually make a good game beyond what they got from the PnP rule books and left out most of that stuff to boot.

All you have to do is look at any other MMO even the sub par ones with **** combat systems tend to outshine DDO on every other level. Be it customizing a characters looks to more flexible and forgiving character rebuilding to make it ALOT more enjoyable to play new character styles. DDO has one thing and thats its combat sure combat is abot 80% of a game which is what keeps ddo going in its dark times. but it will come to an end soon if they cant figure out that challenge and grind are not even remotely connected. A game can still be very fun and feel very challenging without all the huge punishments devs heap on us with thier constant cheating content.

A good example is AC it takes far to much for it to matter making many just forsake it entirely leading right to the must heal to win state we have. Well I for one have started a habit and seen it spread to others. No AC equals no healing from me or the clerics I know.

If AC doesnt seem to matter to you then report it as a bug because AC even low numbers should help. If content is full of mobs who can easily hit an AC above 30 the DEVs cheated you there pure and simple. Same with dmg I wont heal anyone with above 300 HP anymore as those guys are obvious exploiter/cheaters as well who ruined the game balance.

I say remove toughness feats and enhancments all together. Make mob dmg and to hit ALOT lower, make playing a cleric about playing the game and not watching others play while you keep them on thier feet.

Content actually should always be balanced around the idea of a solo powerful cleric. A lvl 20 cleric or wizard is as close to a diety as the DDO verse can see and as such should be the end game standard of power pure and simple. THere is nothing in PnP either one couldnt lay waste to with a thought. At least not and still be seen as a fair and balanced encounter for the rest in a group.

A good example of why you cant beat a lvl 20 cleric in PnP ever. Harm+creeping doom. thats it. All it has taken since at least 2nd Ed to proove the power of the divine over the power of a sword.

Oh look a elder dragon... HARM... oh thank the gods he failed his SR check and his save... 1-4 is all he can have left so I cast creeping doom.. dead....soooo dead. like bloody cow in a river full of pirahna dead.

Oh and no such thing as a melee class if your warrior cant range and melee they are so gimp.

[kierg10]

I think at lvl 15-20 they should make weak man pots more common(You know the ones that give 10-75 SP) or something that only gives 5-20 SP and give it a 5-10 second cooldown. This way the healers and other casters wont be using them as a crutch cuase they give barely any SPs and will truly be for emergency situations, and since they have a cooldown (short though it is) they will still be limited in the number of pots they can use. People wont waitfor their cooldown to be over if they are trying to do a quest efficiently, so that would make it so that casters wouldnt chug them to top their SP off. I think make them drop 10-15% of the time, and keep the stronger pots at their low drop rate. This way everyone can have what they want. No chugging as a crutch. Being able to afford them. It would be Win-Win 3:)

[Uska]

I think they are to common and they need to be taken out of the ddo store as well then maybe people wouldnt rely on them as a crutch.

[Uska]

Mnemonics used to be a for-sale item back in the very early days of DDO. They may need to be sold in a shop again if the developers keep making Epic Raids more difficult, to keep up with newer player needs. Of course, in many cases, for Hard and Elite raids now the mnemonics are starting to become a problem for those without Epic level gear (whether they have actual Epic items or not).

I'm always focused on the new players. Many forum dwellers focus only on themselves and their friends, but I focus on those I may never meet. I want your game to be better.

For those with an abundance of monetary wealth (net income greater than $50/month), I strongly recommend that you try out a stack of 100 of the strongest Turbine Store Mnemonic potions with a Savant (Sorcerer) of your particular preference. It is tremendously liberating.

They were never for sale in shops I dont know where you ever got that idea. and they should be removed from the store as well they are a crutch that needs to be gone

[azrael4h]

Running around Gianthold/Orchard and Vale on up, I get a major out of nearly every end reward; I pulled 3 last night running vale quests with my guildies. We ran three quests.

I don't always carry them on my Ranger, but then she hasn't hit any raids yet. I do keep a stack in the shared bank, as well as one on my FvS and Sorc each.

They are not particularly rare once you start getting up into the raiding levels. However, trying to drown yourself in them will greatly outstrip how many you can generally pull in a day. I cannot recall the last time I used one myself.

[gloopygloop]

I think this is really the crux of my point.

I'm a newb, only level 13 first life, only raids have been Chronoscope twice (and hated nearly every minute of them, a separate discussion). But I already have people telling me I "need" to buy stacks of heal scrolls because I'll "have" to use them. Um, I'm new enough that a stack of heal scrolls is a big chunk of my personal wealth. And those are only 160 pp or whatever. I can't even imagine being told I "need" to buy stacks of 20k potions.

I already see people in groups begging for healers. And when I try to answer those requests, I inevitably find it impossible to heal everyone because they run all over the place. Pumping up the bosses while not making it feasible for healers to do more healing without spending a fortune is pretty soon going to make life hard for everyone.

In higher level quests/raids, you will need to have stacks of Heal scrolls on hand. You won't need to use them most of the time, though.

In regular quests, there are *plenty* of shrines to complete the quest without using pots. The heal scrolls give you a buffer in those quests in order to make sure that you have SP left over when you reach the next shrine even if you happen to have some troubles along the way. Heal scrolls let you stretch your spell points without having to dip into your Mnemonic potion stack.

In raids, you will often have to heal an entire group of 12 people. You can't heal 12 people with Heal scrolls even if you were willing to do so because of the 6 second cooldown on those scrolls. That means you will want to save the scrolls either for the main tank (if there is one - many raids don't/can't have a main tank) or you won't use them in the first place.

If you need to use a Mnemonic potion in *ANY* raid on Normal, then something has gone seriously wrong. If you have to use a Mnemonic potion in epic Chronoscope, epic Zawabi's Revenge or epic VoN6 and it's not your first or second run through those raids, then either you or the party that you're with are not ready for those epic raids. I fully expect to drink a couple of pots whenever I go into a raid for the first time because I'll need to get used to the pace of healing. Outside of those first couple of times, however, my pot use is very infrequent.

I have a stack of 50+ major mnemonic potions. I have that stack because I take them for end rewards when they show up and I don't spend any of them most of the time.

The first raid that you'll end up healing (aside from Chronoscope and Tempest's Spine which don't really count) is the Shroud. In the big fights (parts 4 and 5), you should only need a Superior Potency VI item, the Life Magic IV enhancement, Empower Healing metamagic turned ON, Quicken turned OFF and your regular number of spell points with a Power X item.

Cycle between Quickened Mass Heal (turn Quicken on for that specific spell) each time it comes off of cooldown and throw a non-Quickened Mass Cure Moderate (level 6, so it will be boosted by the Superior Potency VI item) when the Mass Heal is half way done its cooldown. If you can manage to stagger your Mass Heals so that they're going off out of synch with the other healer in the raid, that will be helpful, but don't freak out if you can't make that happen. Turn Maximise and Empower off when you're raid healing because they'll just suck your spell points dry when you're casting any of the Mass Cures and they don't work on Heal/Mass Heal.

If any party member dies with you throwing Mass Heal every seven seconds and Mass Cure Moderate every seven seconds in between the Mass Heal to keep them topped off, then they deserved to die. I'm a bit more stingy. I throw a Mass Heal every seven seconds without the Mass Cure Moderate and if anyone dies, then I just tell them to eat some concrete and harden up.

Carry pots. Carry stacks of Heal scrolls. You'll need them if something goes wrong. But don't spend them if people are being stupid and don't be afraid to let people die occasionally (unless they're the main tank for specific raids - Hound of Xoriat, Vision of Destruction, Tower of Despair, Lord of Blades). You'll chug a pot every once in a while, but you shouldn't be consuming more than you find after you've healed that raid a couple of times and gotten used to the pace of healing that is needed.

[KillEveryone]

They are used to cure feeblmind. I have been hit by it in Wiz King for certain. I am sure it is used elsewhere.


I'd like to either see a Menomonic pot sold for plat that only gives back 1 sp. This would just be for countering feeblmind or have one of the other cures in a pot take care of that problem.

I don't have many minors. Bunch of majors. I don't want to drink a major just to cure feeblmind though.

They are somewhat rare. Scoop them off the end reward list and they are not too rare. It helps to have non blue bar characters take that reward and bank them for your blue bars.

[Aashrym]

Blowing wads of plat on SP pots for healing is simply a bad way of doing it.

SP healing in runs that drop them as rewards, scroll healing to supplement SP healing in long runs or some raids, and profit for scrolls while stockpiling pots for when needed.

Throwing away money on SP pots is a choice, not a requirement, and if it does become necessary the run failed. Let it fail without costing you more.

I have never bought an SP pot and I still manage to succeed. If I can do it that has got to be positive proof it's possible for just about anyone. ;)

EDIT: I almost forgot... I would prefer to see more limitations on SP pot usage and lower drop rates. For those healers complaining about the impact to them the solution I mentioned before was to add heal and mass heal scrolls in their place in the drop rates. To prevent mass purchase on the AH and putting us back at a cost factor BtA scrolls would prevent that.

[Aaxeyu]

Maybe this has been raised in some of the other threads about the buffing of raid bosses, but as a newbie I've never understood why mnemonic enhancement potions are so rare -- relative to demand -- and thus so expensive. Okay, you can argue that making them cheap would make casters very powerful, but we already have cheap healing potions and lots of other items that are quite cheap as well. It seems arbitrary to make these potions so pricey by restricting their supply severely. Making them more plentiful might be a somewhat easy way to reduce the impact of making bosses so hard.

Now that just backwards. Why do you think they had to buff the bosses in the first place?