Con has become a dump stat for Paladins!

[butlerfamilywa]

And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Take a Paladin for example.. level 20.. Defender of Siberys III...

8 Base + 2 Tome + 6 Item + 3 Exceptional (+2 on your DoS ToD ring) + 1 Human = 20 Yup, 20 Con.

HP:
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitallity
200 Paladin level 20
100 Con Bonus
22 Toughness (Feat)
30 Greater False Life
45 GS Hp Item
20 Class Toughness (Enhancement, Pre-Req to DoS)
10 Human Toughness (Enhancements, 1 AP Point)
22 Toughness (Item)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
479 Hit Points...

Now here is where that Con Stat becomes a dump Stat..

479 Hit Points, then add +6 Con from DoS III Stance, = 539 Hit points,+20% maximum hit points from the DoS III stance = 646 Hit Points in stance, with just a -10% movement Penality..

Oh, Boat Buff of +2 con = 670 Hit Points when in stance! ... add a Yugo pot and you got 718 Hit Points in stance... hahahahaha

Paladins can now call Con a dump stat! WOOT!

[Forzah]

That's pretty cool. But I'd probably only go 8 con after LR'ing...

[butlerfamilywa]

That's pretty cool. But I'd probably only go 8 con after LR'ing...

My thoughts exactly.. but it's rather strange that a main stay tank.. be it fighter or paladin (since both get the +6 con and +20% hitpoints), can do this...

Oh.. and add in the fabricators bracers proc... +4 Con there as well... for max con of 759.. well.. then theres the 3 con from abashai set, but what paladin in their right mind is gonna wear 5 pieces of gear for 3 con?

[Bechtinger]

Dont do it, dont go DoS if you dont want to be a tank. You threat will be off the hook and if you can achieve reasonable dps, you might or will grab aggro off the tank. That is NOT what you or your party wants.

I was afraid of this going to happen!

Youn have to heavily invest in threat reduction if you plan on a build like his, otherwise youre endangering success in lets say ToD or VoD. Mind that plz!

[nivarch]

My thoughts exactly.. but it's rather strange that a main stay tank.. be it fighter or paladin (since both get the +6 con and +20% hitpoints), can do this...

Oh.. and add in the fabricators bracers proc... +4 Con there as well... for max con of 759.. well.. then theres the 3 con from abashai set, but what paladin in their right mind is gonna wear 5 pieces of gear for 3 con?

More HP is still more HP, it will allow healer to save SP cause they won't need to cast a quickened heal on you after you get hit by a disint and will be able to try and top you up with just scrolls.

Unless you can gain a lot, I'd still take some more HP. Of course that doesn't mean you need 16 con, but 12 or 14 would be nice !

[FrozenNova]

That's just it - DoS paladins provide appalling dps. No melee with the intent to deal damage goes DoS, and if they intend to tank, 650hp is not sufficient.
Anyway - I'd probably drop toughness instead of dumping con.

[butlerfamilywa]

Cant drop toughness and be a DoS..

and since when did 650 hps become useless? 90% of tanks pre-update 11 were 500 to 600...

hitting 700 as a non barbarian with no barbarian past life was reserved for epic geared toons...


just wow.

You can get 80+ Ac with power attack, 700ish Hit Points, Full Threat with a ECF, and still crank up your strength to do damage... just wow people.. no your not swinging a esos.. but you still have plenty of hps for anything you need to do.

You missed the total point of the post... 8 con paladins can hit 700 hit points with a little investment... meaning they can crank their dex/str/cha instead of spreading it over 4 stats, they just have 3... making it easier to get your str up.. and your ac up.. making them a better tank :) and still qualify for divine might 4, exhaulted smite 4 ect ect ect

[krogyy]

Cant drop toughness and be a DoS..

and since when did 650 hps become useless? 90% of tanks pre-update 11 were 500 to 600...

hitting 700 as a non barbarian with no barbarian past life was reserved for epic geared toons...


just wow.

You can get 80+ Ac with power attack, 700ish Hit Points, Full Threat with a ECF, and still crank up your strength to do damage... just wow people.. no your not swinging a esos.. but you still have plenty of hps for anything you need to do.

You missed the total point of the post... 8 con paladins can hit 700 hit points with a little investment... meaning they can crank their dex/str/cha instead of spreading it over 4 stats, they just have 3... making it easier to get your str up.. and your ac up.. making them a better tank :) and still qualify for divine might 4, exhaulted smite 4 ect ect ect

the problem is you will not always be the tank.

and when you are not you have the choice either of keeping in stance with 75% bonus threat and be a liability for your group, or leave stance and lower your hp to substandard levels and be a liability for your group.

[ZzpxpzZ]

Heh? Which tank was running 500-600 HP?

My paladin/monk/rogue had 545 unbuffed HP last life without any epic gear. You would have to have a pretty rough tank build to have been that low.

[Bechtinger]

This!

The pug Tanks for normal VoD were 500-600hp before the update yes. 500 hp, still being able to be one-shot by normal horoths disintegrate? No thanks.

Even with AC, try to go past 800 hp, better 900 or more now that bosses have metamagics and hit for more physical damage. 80AC? No, 90+ AC must be the goal. All in all, you'll want a perfectly balanced toon for tanking purposes, you wont get that from dumping con.

[butlerfamilywa]

the problem is you will not always be the tank.

and when you are not you have the choice either of keeping in stance with 75% bonus threat and be a liability for your group, or leave stance and lower your hp to substandard levels and be a liability for your group.

You're right, at which point you pick up a 2h weapon, dump stance, and run rages... you're still hitting over 500hps, and doing decent damage :)

[alexp80]

and since when did 650 hps become useless? 90% of tanks pre-update 11 were 500 to 600...


a tank with 500 hp? /reroll

[butlerfamilywa]

This!

The pug Tanks for normal VoD were 500-600hp before the update yes. 500 hp, still being able to be one-shot by normal horoths disintegrate? No thanks.

Even with AC, try to go past 800 hp, better 900 or more now that bosses have metamagics and hit for more physical damage. 80AC? No, 90+ AC must be the goal. All in all, you'll want a perfectly balanced toon for tanking purposes, you wont get that from dumping con.

And you won't get that from 99% of your current players either.

Enjoy your dream?

[ZzpxpzZ]

And you won't get that from 99% of your current players either.

Enjoy your dream?

This is why 90% of pug TODs are tanked by the barbarian. At least the healer can make up for low AC, there is nothing they can do about low HP.

[grodon9999]

And you won't get that from 99% of your current players either.

Enjoy your dream?

900-1000 HP is the new standard for defender (DoS, Stalwart) builds. The changed raids are absolutely brutal on elite.

[butlerfamilywa]

900-1000 HP is the new standard for defender (DoS, Stalwart) builds. The changed raids are absolutely brutal on elite.

And you won't be seeing many Defenders running 900 to 1000 hitpoints.. fighters, MAYBE.. if they dump all their feats into toughnesses and are dwarf...

Paladins? highly doubtful.. even a 42 con paladin isn't going to see 1,000 hitpoints.. maybe 900 to 950, but it won't break 1,000 without severly gimping any type of damage it can do.

[butlerfamilywa]

This is why 90% of pug TODs are tanked by the barbarian. At least the healer can make up for low AC, there is nothing they can do about low HP.

And this is why you hit 80+ ac.. 650 hit points, 80+ ac, your healer won't be doing much healing unless the paladin rolls a 1.

[gloopygloop]

718 HP is nice.

790 HP is better. I agree that you probably *can* make Con a dump stat, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should when 14 Con will take you up another 72 HP.

[Miow]

You're right, at which point you pick up a 2h weapon, dump stance, and run rages... you're still hitting over 500hps, and doing decent damage :)

that is my plan when i tr...

[grodon9999]

And this is why you hit 80+ ac.. 650 hit points, 80+ ac, your healer won't be doing much healing unless the paladin rolls a 1.

You are a corpse if you try to tank anything above normal with that. I'm not sure about hard (haven't run anything on hard yet) but elite will kill you.

[butlerfamilywa]

Just for S&G's.. here's a basic run down for you

HP:
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitallity
200 Paladin level 20
22 Toughness (Feat)
30 Greater False Life
45 GS Hp Item
20 Class Toughness (Enhancement, Pre-Req to DoS)
10 Human Toughness (Enhancements, 1 AP Point)
22 Toughness (Item)
20 Boat +2 Con
----------------------------
+379 Hit Points

2 Tome + 6 Item + 3 Exceptional + 1 Human = +12 to base stat for Con.

08 Con + Mods = 20 Con = 100 Hps = 479 / 646 Hps Stanced
10 Con + Mods = 22 Con = 120 Hps = 499 / 670 Hps Stanced
12 Con + Mods = 24 Con = 140 Hps = 519 / 694 Hps Stanced
14 Con + Mods = 26 Con = 160 Hps = 539 / 718 Hps Stanced
16 Con + Mods = 28 Con = 180 Hps = 559 / 742 Hps Stanced
18 Con + Mods = 30 Con = 200 Hps = 579 / 766 Hps Stanced

Yes, you can easily get your Con score higher than 30 with gear.. and you can raise your hp's even more than what I have listed.. but that shows you exactly how little it really increases from your Con Score..

If you look at a difference of 8 con vs 18 con, which btw, is an insane amount of build points, yes, its 120 hit points... but for the investment, it's not worth it, i could see going 14... maybe 16... but these 800, 900 numbers i'm seeing folks talk about, you're only going to get there if you crank your toughness feats, a lot of AP points into toughness enhancements... and a major investment into your AP's, which is going to cause you to do diddly squat for damage. It isn't worth it.


And I you're so right, I've never seen a 400 to 600 hit point monk ever tank anything... on hard, elite, or epic.. nope, never.. evasion or not. Keep in mind, it gets done on a daily basis.. even rogues can tank, if they are played well :)

[Bechtinger]

My tank is currently running with 895 hp in stance, most likely im gonna improve this, while AC is about 87-91 (no Paladin, halfling companion). I'd not run with anything less than this.

[Vallin]

Paladins have always been about sacrificing one thing to achieve another - it is probably one of the most stat dependent, enhancement dependent, and gear dependent classes in the game.

There is balance to be achieved in all this and now there seems to be some more options. Maybe I can drop a toughness feat and pick up more damage ability, etc. - but the bottom line is that now DoS in my opinion are a strong tank option for raids and boss fights. I am just so happy that paladins with S&B got a little attention. Loooooong overdue and MUCH APPRECIATED.

Vallin.

[ZzpxpzZ]

The problem is on long fights your paladin WILL roll 1s, and if one of those is on a disintegrate...

[grodon9999]

The problem is on long fights your paladin WILL roll 1s, and if one of those is on a disintegrate...

It took us a full 10 minutes to kill Sulu last night in Elite Tower, the HP is just stupid high right now. In that time our Stalwart on Horoth rolled three 1s and lived because he had over 1000 HP.

[Dexxaan]

It took us a full 10 minutes to kill Sulu last night in Elite Tower, the HP is just stupid high right now. In that time our Stalwart on Horoth rolled three 1s and lived because he had over 1000 HP.


1000+ HP's you say ?

- I believe you, but please place Toon name (PM me to avoid Forum rules issue) so I can MyDDO him.... theres a Gimp-Factor screaming to be known....


3 1's ey? ------- He needs new dice. :D





.

[Ungood]

And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Take a Paladin for example.. level 20.. Defender of Siberys III...

8 Base + 2 Tome + 6 Item + 3 Exceptional (+2 on your DoS ToD ring) + 1 Human = 20 Yup, 20 Con.

HP:
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitallity
200 Paladin level 20
100 Con Bonus
22 Toughness (Feat)
30 Greater False Life
45 GS Hp Item
20 Class Toughness (Enhancement, Pre-Req to DoS)
10 Human Toughness (Enhancements, 1 AP Point)
22 Toughness (Item)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
479 Hit Points...

Now here is where that Con Stat becomes a dump Stat..

479 Hit Points, then add +6 Con from DoS III Stance, = 539 Hit points,+20% maximum hit points from the DoS III stance = 646 Hit Points in stance, with just a -10% movement Penality..

Oh, Boat Buff of +2 con = 670 Hit Points when in stance! ... add a Yugo pot and you got 718 Hit Points in stance... hahahahaha

Paladins can now call Con a dump stat! WOOT!

Good to know and well thought out! I might try this sometime just to see how it plays!

Kudos!:D