How is epic raiding PuGs in Orien now? [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

WoD-IroN

09-13-2011, 09:40 AM

we did a pug evon6 yesterday after the update went live with a solid team (and 1 piker due to connection issues). with the increase to fort and hp, velah took way over 2x as long to kill, with only 2 healers we had to distribute some pots and im sure useage went over 10+ (i gave out 6 so it was at least 6).. its not so much any harder just it takes a **** lot longer than it did before, group formations will definatly have to change, id likly want at least 3 healers in party now. we completed in 18min (yey we set the orien post-u11 record) so its definatly going to depend now on the party makeup and player strengths.

however with the update to the UI, seems more people will get penalised for low hp, certainly low hp will likly cause MYDDO checks so perhaps pugs may start to shape up abit to cope with the new raids, either way expect many more pug wipes

Noopleh

09-13-2011, 10:07 AM

Where your healers clerics? How much SP did they have? 10+ pots a healer for evon6 is definitly harsh.
This will definitly make my healer redundant, and he is my main toon. No way I can afford that much pots.

WoD-IroN

09-13-2011, 11:29 AM

one was cleric, one was fvs. both had a good amount of sp and were knowledged players (at least one was anyway) but yeah it really is a long battle now, youll definatly need at least 3 healers to a party now unless the healers there have crazy sp, its still possible to solo heal the velah fight just it will be pot intensive, also it does feel that she hits harder this time round but cant be sure on that bit

Cauthey

09-13-2011, 11:34 AM

Woo. That's scary. And I still need some eVON stuff. :(

Solmage

09-13-2011, 12:18 PM

I can only emphasize that you pace yourselves. It is now more than ever important that almost no mana be used on the bases, and that all melees have adequate hitpoints so that a healer can use mass heal and heal scrolls in between, and that heals are perfectly coordinated amongst the 2-3 healers so no mana is wasted.

(Prolly 1 person using mass heals, the rest using heal scrolls as needed, and then switch roles)

To answer the OP, it will be rough for a small while, until people adapt to using actual mana conservation tactics and builds, instead of good ole brute force.

ChadB123

09-13-2011, 02:09 PM

Khumbaaba

09-13-2011, 02:50 PM

Crazyfruit

09-13-2011, 03:45 PM

You guys are over-reacting. I did an evon today with 2000 mana left after. Sure we had three healers but two would have been fine. Also...with a good group the raid doesn't take but 8min TOPS. 18min is def a longer and 10 pots is retarted. Pugging other raids now may have change...but as for evon6 its still a short cake-walk.

I think it's safe to say only a tiny minority of players think it's a cake walk - even the old one :)

Another post I saw here made it sound like it was 10x harder, any big changes besides more boringness?

ChadB123

09-13-2011, 03:55 PM

I think it's safe to say only a tiny minority of players think it's a cake walk - even the old one :)

Another post I saw here made it sound like it was 10x harder, any big changes besides more boringness?

I dont understand how people figure that its 10x harder. Its simple math. The raid took around 7min before the update (for pugs, much faster with good guilds)...so velah has twice the hp. Its just not adding up to me as to why its so much harder.

Besides the hp and damage increase everything else seemed the same.

SonilasFx

09-13-2011, 05:59 PM

I did a pug evon6 yesterday, it takes me 19 minutes xD
prefer now, more fun.
finished guild raid(evon,adq2,echronoscope,hard tod) today, everything worked without error or wipe, i believe that teamwork is a result of this update.
sales of Major Pots SP will increase... time for tubirne fix shard RSS...
the only problem is the new bar SP / HP with a small monitor ... this is terrible. they need to increase the size

Noopleh

09-14-2011, 03:20 AM

You guys are over-reacting. I did an evon today with 2000 mana left after. Sure we had three healers but two would have been fine. Also...with a good group the raid doesn't take but 8min TOPS. 18min is def a longer and 10 pots is retarted. Pugging other raids now may have change...but as for evon6 its still a short cake-walk.

the keyword is "puging" in my thread, as in PuGs, things that shouldn't happen in a "simple" raid can happen.

I am not trying to personally attack you, but most PuGs aren't as geared as OR's people are, and gear has an effect on how a raid goes.

So if you have nothing constructive to say, please leave the thread.

PuGs will have some awesome players, but to rely on those players alone is madness.

Isharah

09-14-2011, 03:52 AM

the keyword is "puging" in my thread, as in PuGs, things that shouldn't happen in a "simple" raid can happen.

I am not trying to personally attack you, but most PuGs aren't as geared as OR's people are, and gear has an effect on how a raid goes.

So if you have nothing constructive to say, please leave the thread.

PuGs will have some awesome players, but to rely on those players alone is madness.

It was a semi-PuG.

Some PK people plus a handful of outsiders. I was there with my healer.

Anyway, with the new raid boss HPs, it's not that everyone has to get geared better, it's just that now, people really need to learn how to listen and be more efficient, especially when it comes to the healers. (Heal only when it's your turn, don't double-buff, don't rebuff until buffs are almost gone...)

TBH, I don't even blame raid boss HP for potential wipes, rather the new UI which makes party members' HP and SP bars look like flattened marbles... That sucked. XD

Noopleh

09-14-2011, 04:07 AM

It was a semi-PuG.

Some PK people plus a handful of outsiders. I was there with my healer.

Anyway, with the new raid boss HPs, it's not that everyone has to get geared better, it's just that now, people really need to learn how to listen and be more efficient, especially when it comes to the healers. (Heal only when it's your turn, don't double-buff, don't rebuff until buffs are almost gone...)

TBH, I don't even blame raid boss HP for potential wipes, rather the new UI which makes party members' HP and SP bars look like flattened marbles... That sucked. XD

Everyone should have adequate gear. I am not talking about eSoS, red armor and 5 ePC abishai, i am talking about shroud geared at least. Sure it's about co-op and skills but gear WILL help.

And yes, I assumed it was a bunch of experienced people in chad's evon. Thus making his statement void and off topic.

I have yet to see to see the new UI, the internet should be back in maybe 1 week, then I will see for myself how bad/good it is

Isharah

09-14-2011, 05:14 AM

And yes, I assumed it was a bunch of experienced people in chad's evon. Thus making his statement void and off topic.

You are underestimating the Orien pug community. :P

Noopleh

09-14-2011, 05:34 AM

You are underestimating the Orien pug community. :P

Speaking from personal experience. I have met players that I wonder how they aren't in a top raiding guild, seeing how boss they are and met players that makes me ask myself if they can even read or type.

I learned one thing in PuGing: "expect the worse to happen at any time"

On Topic:

I have been looking around the forums and it seems evon6, of most raids is achievable with mostly no SP pots usage. Co ordination with healers IS required.
Chrono seems to be rather *****y and so is elite ToD.

Has abbot changed? Is he even harder or did they fix the non scaling issues?

Forgeborn

09-14-2011, 07:08 AM

eChrono pug mostly
completed without to much hassle, no pots used, did use a small tactic at the end fight to extend sp bars though, which worked nicely, all 3 bosses in there seem to have lower AC, more HP, more fortification, at least that's my perception from it (or I might have been rolling a lot higher across the board constantly)

ChadB123

09-14-2011, 02:29 PM

the keyword is "puging" in my thread, as in PuGs, things that shouldn't happen in a "simple" raid can happen.

I am not trying to personally attack you, but most PuGs aren't as geared as OR's people are, and gear has an effect on how a raid goes.

So if you have nothing constructive to say, please leave the thread.

PuGs will have some awesome players, but to rely on those players alone is madness.

Ok ok........

#1. It was not OR. Sure no one in the group was stupid, but I wouldn't go as far to say they were all epiced geared.

#2. I pug echrono's all the time. 2 since the update which both went off without any problems.

#3. If you have less than 420hp~ i'd advise you to get more....there, something constructive.

So if by pugging you mean crappy geared toons that could complete epics with no problems before the update, then no they will have problems. But if by pug you mean a balanced party of nice built toons with moderate gear, then yes it can be a fine epic completion.

Corwinsky

09-14-2011, 03:01 PM

But if by pug you mean a balanced party of nice built toons with moderate gear, then yes it can be a fine epic completion.

With a real pug group (you didn't know players/toons before) even if they have nice built toons with moderate gear you should expect a wipe because gear (HPs, DPS) are not everything.
People need to listen and even more importantly play smartly.
The time when all melees rush from 1 fight to the next with auto-attack on is over or in pug you will initially accept some of those except if you're really really lucky.

I see mentions of healers that need to conserve SPs, not overheal, not cast mass cure between mass heals, not double buff/heal, whatever but really healers SP conservation is not the job of the healers only.

People need to stop
- attacking tough mobs from the front if they don't have agro (well for Velah there is no choice but all others)
- take agro if they don't have very high HPs (yes remove your incite gear including claw gloves if needed)
- play for themselves or to show-off. I.e attacking trash mob to increase their kill count while they should be attacking some specific mobs: (casters), armorers as soon as they pop, bloodplate in eChrono for example
- spread themselves outside of the range of mass spells when specific people have been named on who the mass will be centered on
- Even without enough UMD you can aleviate healer job, if you have less hp than the average hp of melees in the party be ready to chug 1 or 2 serious cure potions between each mass heals (your DPS will suffer more if you're dead)
etc

Some people won't be kicked because they have low HP but they will soon wonder why they get declined from epic raids although they meet the new HP threashold and have good DPS.

Sorry to be frank but people want to complete pug raids, healers don't want to drink more than a few pots to complete epic/elite raids and the blacklist lenghts are going to increase once people have been "bucketezied" as not capable of playing efficiently....

PNellesen

09-14-2011, 04:08 PM

I see mentions of healers that need to conserve SPs, not overheal, not cast mass cure between mass heals, not double buff/heal, whatever but really healers SP conservation is not the job of the healers only.

It doesn't matter WHAT you do as a healer in pugs, you are going to get grief. The one Elite VoD I've healed, I used Burst/Aura/scrolls as much as possible, stayed with the melees (and let aura/burst hit tank as well), and shield blocked to get SP back with Torc/Conc. Opp. Party seldom got below 80% because other healer apparently was spamming every cure spell they had (every time I was about to cast a cure, party got topped off, so I didn't bother unless there was a big spike in damage.) End result: I get yelled at by the leader to "heal party and stop fighting" and to "quit healing tank and concentrate on party!" :p (There was only 1 death, a rogue who apparently didn't drink their remove curse pot fast enough)

This one experience alone is what keeps me from pugging any Epic raid unless it's people I know or who I've run with before. Epic Last Stand is fun enough when all 5 other players go their own separate directions when the 2nd round starts, and attack the mudmen first - I cannot even imagine what a Pug EChrono is like for healers :p

ChadB123

09-14-2011, 05:59 PM

I cannot even imagine what a Pug EChrono is like for healers :p

It was fun. I actually had to keep an eye on the party instead of watching tv/clicking mass heal pre u11.

As for elite vod, i would only run that if you were well geared and had a good party. Elite is now elite after all! D:

Noopleh

09-15-2011, 03:16 AM

Cheers Chad and Valy. Excatly the info I was looking for.

So eChrono is still do-able as PuGs... but SP conserve and intelligence is recommanded.

Chad, did you use any different tactic at the conjoined abishai or is still tank grabs aggro pull in corner then melee beatdown?

fyrst.grok

09-15-2011, 03:48 AM

It doesn't matter WHAT you do as a healer in pugs, you are going to get grief. The one Elite VoD I've healed, I used Burst/Aura/scrolls as much as possible, stayed with the melees (and let aura/burst hit tank as well), and shield blocked to get SP back with Torc/Conc. Opp. Party seldom got below 80% because other healer apparently was spamming every cure spell they had (every time I was about to cast a cure, party got topped off, so I didn't bother unless there was a big spike in damage.) End result: I get yelled at by the leader to "heal party and stop fighting" and to "quit healing tank and concentrate on party!" :p (There was only 1 death, a rogue who apparently didn't drink their remove curse pot fast enough)

This one experience alone is what keeps me from pugging any Epic raid unless it's people I know or who I've run with before. Epic Last Stand is fun enough when all 5 other players go their own separate directions when the 2nd round starts, and attack the mudmen first - I cannot even imagine what a Pug EChrono is like for healers :p

I know the feeling.. I never join pugs as healer anymore since I usually spend more time arguing with so called vets about having a melee fvs and using same sp regeneration tactics as you. So.. join my lfm's and I will never yell at you :)

Another thing in regard to the raids.. Did rogues become useless now with the increase in fortification?

Noopleh

09-15-2011, 04:13 AM

I know the feeling.. I never join pugs as healer anymore since I usually spend more time arguing with so called vets about having a melee fvs and using same sp regeneration tactics as you. So.. join my lfm's and I will never yell at you :)

Another thing in regard to the raids.. Did rogues become useless now with the increase in fortification?

Might want to ask Krimsonrane

Forgeborn

09-15-2011, 04:25 AM

...did you use any different tactic at the conjoined abishai or is still tank grabs aggro pull in corner then melee beatdown?

Conjoined Abishai Devastator = CAD

Run I was in was pretty much standard as far as Echrono goes; Abishai come down, person takes aggro of all 5 and runs them around the pillar were suulomades pops up, then abishai get pulled to the dps pack one by one to be slaughtered. When all Abishai are dead, huddle up for a moment to get a few last minute buffs in, and a refresh on haste/rage, tank (in this case me) runs over to where the CAD drops down, sucks a set of Yugo pots to raise strength and hp, and pops the madstone rage clicky when the white flash appears. Tank after that proceeds to poke the CAD and then pull it to the corner which is relatively close to where you enter, takes 10 seconds to build up some initial aggro, and then calls in the rest of the DPS to start attackin it.

At white and black dragon forms DPS backs up for a little to prevent getting cursed/blown to bit by ice, before getting back to their jobs. Fast forward some minutes and the abishai is dead.

Another thing in regard to the raids.. Did rogues become useless now with the increase in fortification?
Fortification I'd guess at around ~60% to 75% for the eChrono bosses, they seemed to be resisting my monk's critical threats a lot more then they were doing pre u11, so as a rogue you'll definately will feel the loss of DPS, but you will still have some DPS, just not as much as before.

TL;DR: Tank grabs CAD aggro, pulls CAD to corner, commence CAD beatdown

fyrst.grok

09-15-2011, 04:56 AM

Might want to ask Krimsonrane

Don't think Krimson will ever be useless.. Was thinking of the rest of us mortals :p

Conjoined Abishai Devastator = CAD

Run I was in was pretty much standard as far as Echrono goes; Abishai come down, person takes aggro of all 5 and runs them around the pillar were suulomades pops up, then abishai get pulled to the dps pack one by one to be slaughtered. When all Abishai are dead, huddle up for a moment to get a few last minute buffs in, and a refresh on haste/rage, tank (in this case me) runs over to where the CAD drops down, sucks a set of Yugo pots to raise strength and hp, and pops the madstone rage clicky when the white flash appears. Tank after that proceeds to poke the CAD and then pull it to the corner which is relatively close to where you enter, takes 10 seconds to build up some initial aggro, and then calls in the rest of the DPS to start attackin it.

At white and black dragon forms DPS backs up for a little to prevent getting cursed/blown to bit by ice, before getting back to their jobs. Fast forward some minutes and the abishai is dead.

Fortification I'd guess at around ~60% to 75% for the eChrono bosses, they seemed to be resisting my monk's critical threats a lot more then they were doing pre u11, so as a rogue you'll definately will feel the loss of DPS, but you will still have some DPS, just not as much as before.

TL;DR: Tank grabs CAD aggro, pulls CAD to corner, commence CAD beatdown

Pretty much what it used to be then concerning tactics.

Oh well.. some dps is betterthan none.. Haven't had a chance to run those raids since the update yet, so it's nice to know.. I guess fvs fort debuff just got a lot more awesome.

Noopleh

09-15-2011, 04:58 AM

Don't think Krimson will ever be useless..

QFT

So it seems the update has brought a new key-skill to the game... communication. I like that

Forgeborn

09-15-2011, 05:19 AM

QFT

So it seems the update has brought a new key-skill to the game... communication. I like that

Just for the healers/casters, I could pretty much go AFK except that I had to suck curse pots after each black dragon, granted, rotating elemental strikes had my preference....

The upgrade on fort/HP hurt casters/healers the most, a DPS still has pretty much the same tasks as before, they just need to stand still/twitch longer then they had before. A healer/caster on the other hands needs to start managing his SP bar a lot more thoroughly, because where melee dps has unlimited swings, a cleric's healing is directly tied to that ever decreasing blue bar, Scrolls can help to a certain extend, but the cooldown on those is to lengthy to work on most tanks.

I do foresee, for raid healers, that they will need to learn to manage SP a lot more... thoroughly, think someone said it before, pay attention to double buffing, try to make sure you're not overhealing, but also keep the designated tank alive and relatively 'safe' [my run, I dropped down to around 50 HP before getting the talon of a mass cure]. At first of course this will require some pots regretfully.

also, who is 'valy'?

Noopleh

09-15-2011, 05:25 AM

Just for the healers/casters, I could pretty much go AFK except that I had to suck curse pots after each black dragon, granted, rotating elemental strikes had my preference....

The upgrade on fort/HP hurt casters/healers the most, a DPS still has pretty much the same tasks as before, they just need to stand still/twitch longer then they had before. A healer/caster on the other hands needs to start managing his SP bar a lot more thoroughly, because where melee dps has unlimited swings, a cleric's healing is directly tied to that ever decreasing blue bar, Scrolls can help to a certain extend, but the cooldown on those is to lengthy to work on most tanks.

I do foresee, for raid healers, that they will need to learn to manage SP a lot more... thoroughly, think someone said it before, pay attention to double buffing, try to make sure you're not overhealing, but also keep the designated tank alive and relatively 'safe' [my run, I dropped down to around 50 HP before getting the talon of a mass cure]. At first of course this will require some pots regretfully.

SP conserve and a massive SP pool will help alot I guess.

I trully need to use a Heart on Searth and fix the mistake of making him a Evoker instead of a Healbot. When I DO fix it, i should roughly have 3200 something SP

Edit: Valy is valy

Forgeborn

09-15-2011, 05:33 AM

SP conserve and a massive SP pool will help alot I guess.

I trully need to use a Heart on Searth and fix the mistake of making him a Evoker instead of a Healbot. When I DO fix it, i should roughly have 3200 something SP

Ehh, Massive SP pool is nice on a caster, but smart use of SP > ton of SP. Of course, a combination of the two works especially nice. My FvS will remain a LoB, will need to think about making him ex SP gear though, even though I most likely won't run him much anyways.

Edit: Valy is valy
didn't see any valy post in this tread, works for me though, curiosity stays at a peak.

ChadB123

09-15-2011, 08:52 AM

Chad, did you use any different tactic at the conjoined abishai or is still tank grabs aggro pull in corner then melee beatdown?

Same thing pretty much. Have a tank and a bunch of support melee to hit it. Its pretty important now to make sure the tank has the fvs crown for the debuff though. We took out the trash both times they came out just because they were annoying. Besides that it is standard.

Angelz_Fire

09-15-2011, 08:56 AM

It doesn't matter WHAT you do as a healer in pugs, you are going to get grief. The one Elite VoD I've healed, I used Burst/Aura/scrolls as much as possible, stayed with the melees (and let aura/burst hit tank as well), and shield blocked to get SP back with Torc/Conc. Opp. Party seldom got below 80% because other healer apparently was spamming every cure spell they had (every time I was about to cast a cure, party got topped off, so I didn't bother unless there was a big spike in damage.) End result: I get yelled at by the leader to "heal party and stop fighting" and to "quit healing tank and concentrate on party!" :p (There was only 1 death, a rogue who apparently didn't drink their remove curse pot fast enough)

This one experience alone is what keeps me from pugging any Epic raid unless it's people I know or who I've run with before. Epic Last Stand is fun enough when all 5 other players go their own separate directions when the 2nd round starts, and attack the mudmen first - I cannot even imagine what a Pug EChrono is like for healers :p

LOL this had to have been before U11 VOD elite now 1 death is long gone!

PNellesen

09-15-2011, 09:00 AM

Keep the designated tank alive and relatively 'safe' My run, I dropped down to around 50 HP before getting the talon of a mass cure.

This is the biggest problem I'm having with the new UI - depending on where in the party list the designated tank is, it can be a real problem for me if I glance away for a second to see what's happening around me on screen, then try to focus again on the tank's health bar. I didn't have this problem at all with the old UI, even an hour after I started healing my very first raid. (I consider myself reasonably good at SP conservation, to the point I get comments about "why aren't you healing?" because I have "too much" SP left after a given fight or raid, even though nobody has died.)

LOL this had to have been before U11 VOD elite now 1 death is long gone!

So I'm hearing ;)

I like a challenge, but there's "challenging" and there's "this is just a stupid waste of my resources for no reward". So far, I haven't read or heard anything that makes me think that the rewards for Epic/Elite content has changed in accordance with the change in difficulty. I get tired of running Elite Raids/Quests and not seeing a single named item drop for anyone in the group (such as Weapons Shipment) then running on Normal and seeing 2 Baubles and an Arrowhead (true story, that's how the guy in my sig got his Bauble). I know "random is random", but I see that sort of thing A LOT. Have seen no Torc in 18 Elite ADQ2s on one character, but saw it drop at least 3 times in Norm/Hard runs on my other Cleric. Why bother with Elite once you've done it 1 time for the favor? (Unless you're doing it for guild reknown, but then it's not usually going to be a PUG run...)