Remove critical accuracy pre-req for kensei

[Cetus]

Hey devs, can anything be done to make critical accuracy actually beneficial for kensei? Confirming critical hits is nearly a non-existant issue with the to-hit that fighters already achieve. Spending 6 action points on 3 tiers of an enhancement that literally provides no benefit other than just satisfying a pre-requisite is a little painstaking to do for the longest time now.

My suggestion:

a) Reduce the ap cost to 1 ap per tier if you absolutely feel that we need it.
b) Turn the bonus into a +1 seeker type effect per tier, so we have the confirm and the dmg aspect of it (stacking with item based seeker items of course) in addition to incentive to grab the 4th tier as well- which, as of right now, nobody does.
c) Rework critical hit confirmation in the game, make them slightly harder to do, so it bears usefulness to have an even higher confirm for fighters versus other classes and even provides usefulness for the feat: Power critical.


As someone who has been a loyal fighter for the past 5 years, seeing AP's wasted is really terrible. I definitely think this particular enhancement is just an action point sink on an already incredibly AP tight class.

-Cetusss

[Cold_Stele]

b) Turn the bonus into a +1 seeker type effect per tier, so we have the confirm and the dmg aspect of it (stacking with item based seeker items of course) in addition to incentive to grab the 4th tier as well- which, as of right now, nobody does.


Agree 100% with this.

The previously useless Frenzied Berserker prereq (Damage Boost) got a very nice buff, it would be nice if Fighters got to share the love too.

The cynical part of me thinks this was just to sweeten the blow for the Barb PL feat fix, especially given the way the news was drip fed. Not that my Humes/HElves are complaining mind you.

[Vellrad]

Well, each PrE in game got something useless in pre req, that you woudn't take if you didn't had to.
Who should kensai be only exception?

[Cold_Stele]

Well, each PrE in game got something useless in pre req, that you woudn't take if you didn't had to.
Who should kensai be only exception?

1. What useless prereqs do Frenzied Berserkers have now?

2. Kensai actually have TWO useless prereqs they have to take to tier III. They also have to take Ftr Attack Boost III (though for some reason I've never understood Kensai Power Surge uses an Attack Boost 'charge' each time it's activated).

[Astraghal]

Fighters have just gotten worse and worse over the past few updates. They need something otherwise they will just become a weaker Barbarian. The developers never really decided what should be the Fighters main strength and stick with it. If it's going to be tactics, make them worthwhile and powerful (for Fighters only), if it's going to be critical hits, make the enhancments meaningful, if it's going to be AC then make it useful. Make up your minds Turbine and move in a fixed direction, as it stands the Fighter class isn't exceptional in any area.

[Ystradmynach]

/signed

Even if critical accuracy wasn't a kensai pre-req it should stand on its own as something at least some builds should find useful to take. But fighters gain so many bonuses to hit anyway, that it isn't reasonable to believe any real fighter build would have any issue confirming criticals, and even if they did the enhancement wouldn't be worth the arithmetic progression assigned to it. If the skill enhancements boosts were made one point each, I don't see why critical confirmation on a fighter should be any different.

[QuantumFX]

Allow racial weapon enhancements to substitute for it.

[alexp80]

1. What useless prereqs do Frenzied Berserkers have now?

ever seen wf fvs pre-req? tons of ap towards something long worse than crit accuracy

[Alternative]

Well, each PrE in game got something useless in pre req, that you woudn't take if you didn't had to.
Who should kensai be only exception?

Frenzied Berserker in u11 as already stated, also Pale Master, Savants, possibly more that I haven't played or don't remember.

Prestige enhancements already have their cost in AP, none should require to take other useless enhancements on top of that, kensai or not. Kotc paladin's +1/2/3 to saves against fear is garbage too.

[Alternative]

ever seen wf fvs pre-req? tons of ap towards something long worse than crit accuracy

what pre-reqs does a WF fvs have? do tell.

Or do you mean the AoV fvs which happen to be a caster PrE and requires the caster smiting line, which is too costly but by no means useless to a CASTER fvs.

[Cold_Stele]

ever seen wf fvs pre-req? tons of ap towards something long worse than crit accuracy

AoV II only wastes 4AP on the faith enhancement (compared to 12AP Kensai wastes). The other differences are -

1. You certainly don't even need to take it (I only have AoV I on my WF FvS as does the original 'Soul Survivor').

2. It's a caster FvS PrE not a melee one. Whilst we all take it on our melee FvS right now (and get some benefit from it) it's not designed for us. The 6AP on Smiting III and Scion III aren't an issue for caster FvS.

[blkcat1028]

Well, each PrE in game got something useless in pre req, that you woudn't take if you didn't had to.
Who should kensai be only exception?

It shouldn't be the exception, but it would be a good place to start.

Like the OP I play a lot of fighter based toons. Critical accuracy is a waste of ap's as it stands.

[Vellrad]

also Pale Master

Energy of the scholar III

[Cetus]

Well, each PrE in game got something useless in pre req, that you woudn't take if you didn't had to.
Who should kensai be only exception?

Well, I absolutely agree that there are other classes that have unnecessary/useless pre reqs that they have to take (bards and their inspired bravery for instance) but as a proponant of fighters, this is the one thats kicking me in the jimmy the hardest, thus my creation of this thread- it is not to minimize the importance of reworking the PrE pre reqs on other classes as well.

Its not so much, "don't let fighters be an exception in an already handful of classes that are cheated" but "make fighters, as well as others, have more useful pre preqs that they should take to satisfy their PrE's."

I think that reworking the importance of critical hit confirmation would kill two birds with one stone as mentioned in the OP- give the enhancement line some appeal as well as the power critical feat.

[Varashad]

Just give us fighters a damage boost enhancement instead of attack and let that satisfy the Kensai requirement, and get rid of critical accuracy altogether and replace it with requiring one of the tactics enhancements that fighters have.

[jkm]

1. What useless prereqs do Frenzied Berserkers have now?

2. Kensai actually have TWO useless prereqs they have to take to tier III. They also have to take Ftr Attack Boost III (though for some reason I've never understood Kensai Power Surge uses an Attack Boost 'charge' each time it's activated).

Have you ever looked at the rogue PrEs?

[Chai]

1. What useless prereqs do Frenzied Berserkers have now?

Cleave.

[Kinerd]

Have you ever looked at the rogue PrEs?Feel free to cite the rogue PrE that has 12 AP spent on useless enhancements.

[jkm]

Fighter Attack 3 isn't useless because you get it back via Power Surge which is +4 to hit +4 damage. Trading +4 to hit for 20 seconds for +4 to hit/damage for 1 minute is a great trade. Compare that to assassin which gets 1 minute of poisons that don't work. AWESOME!!

So critical accuracy = 6 APs

Assassin -> improved hide II, move silently II, Sneak attack accuracy 3 and 4 so that is 11 right there. The damage boost isn't as worthless but its still pretty bad

Mechanic -> Trap lore 1, disable 3, open lock 3, trap sense 2 (10)-> yep, all things you don't need

Acrobat -> Faster Sneaking 1, Balance 2, Tumble 2 (5) + Dex 3 depending on current dex score (6)

Please note, 2 levels of the last 2 no telling what the 3rd tier would require

[Kinerd]

Fighter Attack 3 isn't useless because you get it back via Power Surge which is +4 to hit +4 damage. Trading +4 to hit for 20 seconds for +4 to hit/damage for 1 minute is a great trade. Compare that to assassin which gets 1 minute of poisons that don't work. AWESOME!!Power Surge could just as easily be coded as its own type of boost, or the PrE could only require Fighter Attack 1, or etc.
Assassin -> improved hide II, move silently II, Sneak attack accuracy 3 and 4 so that is 11 right there. The damage boost isn't as worthless but its still pretty badHide and MS are generally useless, 4 AP.
Rogues have a much harder time with to-hit than fighters. Not useless.
Damage boost is a percentage multiplier of sneak attack damage. It is not in any way worthless.
Mechanic -> Trap lore 1, disable 3, open lock 3, trap sense 2 (10)-> yep, all things you don't need

Acrobat -> Faster Sneaking 1, Balance 2, Tumble 2 (5) + Dex 3 depending on current dex score (6)Outside of Balance, the requirements are no more useless than the prestiges themselves.

[hit_fido]

Fighter Attack 3 isn't useless because you get it back via Power Surge which is +4 to hit +4 damage. (snip) So critical accuracy = 6 APs

To be clear:

Kensai I costs 10 AP in all (Fighter Attack Boost II, Fighter Critical Accuracy II, and Kensai I itself), grants you some skill buffs, +1 tactics DC and +1 reflex save vs spells.

Kensai II costs another 2 AP (for Kensai II itself) and is what grants you Power Surge, plus another bump to the same set of skill/DC/save buffs

Kensai III costs another 8 AP (Fighter Attack Boost III, Fighter Critical Accuracy III, and Kensai III itself) and grants another bump to the same set of skill/DC/save buffs, and allows you to buy the +1 threat range for yet another 1 AP.

Fighter Attack III and Fighter Attack in general aren't "traded" for Power Surge, Power Surge unlocks with Kensai II and just uses the same number of boosts as you have for any other action like haste, armor, damage, attack, etc.

Judge whether the enhancement is "useless" or not by whether it's valuable to USE - does any fighter actually trigger Attack Boost? I should think, no. So for a Kensai III, it is 6 AP spent on an enhancement that is never used, therefore the enhancement is essentially useless. If it weren't required to unlock Kensai III, no kensai would take it.

Same is basically true of Critical Accuracy - no kensai would take all three tiers, probably not any, given the poor return on investment. It's taken strictly to unlock the PrE.

Put them together and you're spending 12 AP on two enhancement lines that no kensai would take apart from a pre-requisite. At least let us trade out 6 of those AP for something useful, like Haste Boost.

[Corwinsky]

Power Surge could just as easily be coded as its own type of boost, or the PrE could only require Fighter Attack 1, or etc.Hide and MS are generally useless, 4 AP.
Rogues have a much harder time with to-hit than fighters. Not useless.
Damage boost is a percentage multiplier of sneak attack damage. It is not in any way worthless.Outside of Balance, the requirements are no more useless than the prestiges themselves.

Agree for assassin accuracy. Not useless when you have only 15 BAB.
Damage boost is not a percentage multiplier or was it changed for U11? Will have to check tonight. It is useless if still as before. What is not useless is Haste boost but that's a different competency.

Agree for Mechanic and Acrobat lines, the competencies are in line with the prestiges so if you think they're worthless just don't take that particular prestige either.

[jkm]

Power Surge could just as easily be coded as its own type of boost, or the PrE could only require Fighter Attack 1, or etc.

They went this way with FBs - not tying frenzies to damage boost. Had they done that, then the change to damage boost would be an either or thing and semi-balanced. As it stands they just broke the **** out of it. I'm point out that the AP spend for Attack Boost 3 is fair, you are coming back with but but but


Rogues have a much harder time with to-hit than fighters. Not useless.

No they don't. Even without these 2 enhancements, rogues have +9 to hit while sneak attacking. Where they struggle to hit is when they don't get sneak attacks which isn't helped by adding 2 more enhancements to it.


Damage boost is a percentage multiplier of sneak attack damage. It is not in any way worthless

Rogues get Haste Boost AND Damage Boost which lock each other out. Since haste boost is better, this reduces the overall worth of the enhancement. Thus why I said its average.


Outside of Balance, the requirements are no more useless than the prestiges themselves.

Awesome, so since they suck you should pay more for them.

[jkm]

To be clear:

Kensai I costs 10 AP in all (Fighter Attack Boost II, Fighter Critical Accuracy II, and Kensai I itself), grants you some skill buffs, +1 tactics DC and +1 reflex save vs spells.

Kensai II costs another 2 AP (for Kensai II itself) and is what grants you Power Surge, plus another bump to the same set of skill/DC/save buffs

Kensai III costs another 8 AP (Fighter Attack Boost III, Fighter Critical Accuracy III, and Kensai III itself) and grants another bump to the same set of skill/DC/save buffs, and allows you to buy the +1 threat range for yet another 1 AP.

Fighter Attack III and Fighter Attack in general aren't "traded" for Power Surge, Power Surge unlocks with Kensai II and just uses the same number of boosts as you have for any other action like haste, armor, damage, attack, etc.

Judge whether the enhancement is "useless" or not by whether it's valuable to USE - does any fighter actually trigger Attack Boost? I should think, no. So for a Kensai III, it is 6 AP spent on an enhancement that is never used, therefore the enhancement is essentially useless. If it weren't required to unlock Kensai III, no kensai would take it.

Same is basically true of Critical Accuracy - no kensai would take all three tiers, probably not any, given the poor return on investment. It's taken strictly to unlock the PrE.

Put them together and you're spending 12 AP on two enhancement lines that no kensai would take apart from a pre-requisite. At least let us trade out 6 of those AP for something useful, like Haste Boost.

I think you need to look again. When you click power surge, it takes away a fighter attack boost (I've had a kensai since they came out).

"You also gain the ability to expend a Fighter attack boost to focus your energy and spirit into a surge of power."

[jkm]

Agree for assassin accuracy. Not useless when you have only 15 BAB.
Damage boost is not a percentage multiplier or was it changed for U11? Will have to check tonight. It is useless if still as before. What is not useless is Haste boost but that's a different competency.

Agree for Mechanic and Acrobat lines, the competencies are in line with the prestiges so if you think they're worthless just don't take that particular prestige either.

Madstone/DP clickies aren't exactly rare. If you are sporting less than 20 BAB as a melee its by choice.

[jkm]

To be clear:

Kensai I costs 10 AP in all (Fighter Attack Boost II, Fighter Critical Accuracy II, and Kensai I itself), grants you some skill buffs, +1 tactics DC and +1 reflex save vs spells.

Kensai II costs another 2 AP (for Kensai II itself) and is what grants you Power Surge, plus another bump to the same set of skill/DC/save buffs

Kensai III costs another 8 AP (Fighter Attack Boost III, Fighter Critical Accuracy III, and Kensai III itself) and grants another bump to the same set of skill/DC/save buffs, and allows you to buy the +1 threat range for yet another 1 AP.

Fighter Attack III and Fighter Attack in general aren't "traded" for Power Surge, Power Surge unlocks with Kensai II and just uses the same number of boosts as you have for any other action like haste, armor, damage, attack, etc.

Judge whether the enhancement is "useless" or not by whether it's valuable to USE - does any fighter actually trigger Attack Boost? I should think, no. So for a Kensai III, it is 6 AP spent on an enhancement that is never used, therefore the enhancement is essentially useless. If it weren't required to unlock Kensai III, no kensai would take it.

Same is basically true of Critical Accuracy - no kensai would take all three tiers, probably not any, given the poor return on investment. It's taken strictly to unlock the PrE.

Put them together and you're spending 12 AP on two enhancement lines that no kensai would take apart from a pre-requisite. At least let us trade out 6 of those AP for something useful, like Haste Boost.

Look I've been down this road before with Rogues. They have to spend almost 1/2 of their action points for their PrEs (Fairly sure Acrobate will be over 1/2 when Tier 3 comes out). You should just thanks the stars that kensai didn't require Figther Jump 2 and Fighter Repair 2.

[hit_fido]

I think you need to look again. When you click power surge, it takes away a fighter attack boost (I've had a kensai since they came out).

They share the same counter pool, yes, but you don't spend on Attack Boost to "get it back via Power Surge". You take Attack Boost II to get Kensai I to get Kensai II which finally grants Power Surge. The point is, would a Kensai III ever hit Attack Boost? I say no, therefore Attack Boost is a useless enhancement line for kensai.

The fact that they share the same boost pool compounds the uselessness because if you do use Attack Boost you're losing valuable Power Surges.

[hit_fido]

Look I've been down this road before with Rogues. They have to spend almost 1/2 of their action points for their PrEs (Fairly sure Acrobate will be over 1/2 when Tier 3 comes out). You should just thanks the stars that kensai didn't require Figther Jump 2 and Fighter Repair 2.

Improving useless pre-req enhancement lines in one class (i.e. fighter) is not mutually exclusive with fixing useless pre-req enhancement lines in another class (i.e. rogue), is it? I'm certain this thread is about how to address the issue for fighters, not an opportunity for people to complain about how much worse some other class is.

[jkm]

Improving useless pre-req enhancement lines in one class (i.e. fighter) is not mutually exclusive with fixing useless pre-req enhancement lines in another class (i.e. rogue), is it? I'm certain this thread is about how to address the issue for fighters, not an opportunity for people to complain about how much worse some other class is.

This isn't complaining. This is to explain to you that the PrE is crazy well thought of compared with others. There is no downside to the PrE except for the flavor enhancements of critical accuracy (which are supposed to be the price you pay for the +1 critical range).

[Carpone]

The entire enhancement system needs an overhaul. Every Kensai looks like every other Kensai. The problem is not limited to Kensai. Every other <class prestige> is the same as every other <class prestige>.

[jkm]

They share the same counter pool, yes, but you don't spend on Attack Boost to "get it back via Power Surge". You take Attack Boost II to get Kensai I to get Kensai II which finally grants Power Surge. The point is, would a Kensai III ever hit Attack Boost? I say no, therefore Attack Boost is a useless enhancement line for kensai.

The fact that they share the same boost pool compounds the uselessness because if you do use Attack Boost you're losing valuable Power Surges.

How do I make you drink here.

Think about the difference between Attack Boost 1 and Attack Boost 2. If you put AB 1 on your hot bar when you have AB 2 you will only get the advantage of AB 1 even though it takes the counter away from AB 2 AND puts AB 2 on timer. You actively chose to use an inferior version instead of the superior version.

Kensai Power Surge is like Attack Boost 6. It is an upgraded version of AB 1/2/3.

Critical Accuracy is the Kensai "Flavor" spends (much like skill spends on other PrEs). It at least provides some sort of semi-useful always on active component compared with other PrEs (Inspire Bravery? Aura of Courage?).

So this means that you are complaining about 6 APs (IE 40% of the APs you have to spend).

[jkm]

The entire enhancement system needs an overhaul. Every Kensai looks like every other Kensai. The problem is not limited to Kensai. Every other <class prestige> is the same as every other <class prestige>.

While I totally agree with your statement, not every PM/Archmage look the same. Of course, they provided those PrEs millions of permutations which is why they look different. I just don't think the devs understand that creating character build permutations means they get more bang for their coding buck.

[Aaxeyu]

Kensai Power Surge is like Attack Boost 6. It is an upgraded version of AB 1/2/3.

No, it isn't. You can use PS and AB at the same time.

[jkm]

No, it isn't. You can use PS and AB at the same time.

I know it doesn't lock them out, there was some discussion about that when kensai went live that never got a dev response.

[hit_fido]

Kensai Power Surge is like Attack Boost 6. It is an upgraded version of AB 1 and 2.

By that logic do you consider Attack Boost III - which by your argument is an very inferior version of Power Surge - to be a useless enhancement? It's required for Kensai III, at which point you already have the far superior Power Surge. What is the point of Attack Boost III? Flavor?

Anyway, in the interest of advancing this toward the original goal of examining better options for fighter pre-reqs, you may be onto something here. Change "Fighter Attack Boost I/II" into "Fighter Power Surge I/II":

Fighter Power Surge I: 1 minute of +2 Strength, on its own boost pool
Fighter Power Surge II: 1 minute of +4 Strength, on its own boost pool
Kensai II: "Your power surge doubles in strength, to +8 Strength for 1 minute" - at that point it's working exactly as it is now.

Dump the requirement for a "Fighter Attack Boost III" from Kensai III. Instead require one of "Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II", "Fighter Strategy (Sunder) II", or "Fighter Strategy (Trip) II". Leave Critical Accuracy line as is for, as you say, flavor reasons.

Net result: Power Surge for a Kensai III operates exactly the same as now. Total AP requirements for Kensai III exactly the same as now. But up to Kensai II, the new Fighter Power Surge line actually does something useful instead of the useless Fighter Attack I/II. And Fighter Attack III - which I hope you agree is useless - is replaced by a choice of something that most - though perhaps not all - kensai would find useful.

[hit_fido]

The entire enhancement system needs an overhaul. Every Kensai looks like every other Kensai. The problem is not limited to Kensai. Every other <class prestige> is the same as every other <class prestige>.

Kensai isn't a real complicated PrE, and probably shouldn't be. It's about DPS, with a side of tactics. Different kensai choose to focus on different tactics and that decision point has actually gotten more interesting with Improved Sunder, but as far as the rest looking the same, I'd argue that's a function of gear and weapon characteristics. (Practically) everyone wants khopesh (TWF) or ESoS (THF). Everyone targets pretty much the same set of DPS gear. Provide more weapon choices, and more gear choices, you're likely to see more different looking kensai.

[Monkey_Archer]

I think both the critical accuracy enhancements and power critical feat should add to crit damage as well as confirm critical. The overall dps increase from this would be very small (especially with the new fortification numbers on bosses), but at least they would seem less useless.

Kensai III prereq should be changed to requires one of: Critical accuracy III or any fighter strategy III

[jkm]

By that logic do you consider Attack Boost III - which by your argument is an very inferior version of Power Surge - to be a useless enhancement? It's required for Kensai III, at which point you already have the far superior Power Surge. What is the point of Attack Boost III? Flavor?

Anyway, in the interest of advancing this toward the original goal of examining better options for fighter pre-reqs, you may be onto something here. Change "Fighter Attack Boost I/II" into "Fighter Power Surge I/II":

Fighter Power Surge I: 1 minute of +2 Strength, on its own boost pool
Fighter Power Surge II: 1 minute of +4 Strength, on its own boost pool
Kensai II: "Your power surge doubles in strength, to +8 Strength for 1 minute" - at that point it's working exactly as it is now.

Dump the requirement for a "Fighter Attack Boost III" from Kensai III. Instead require one of "Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II", "Fighter Strategy (Sunder) II", or "Fighter Strategy (Trip) II". Leave Critical Accuracy line as is for, as you say, flavor reasons.

Net result: Power Surge for a Kensai III operates exactly the same as now. Total AP requirements for Kensai III exactly the same as now. But up to Kensai II, the new Fighter Power Surge line actually does something useful instead of the useless Fighter Attack I/II. And Fighter Attack III - which I hope you agree is useless - is replaced by a choice of something that most - though perhaps not all - kensai would find useful.

Remember that the enhancement rules engine is simplistic. You can only have requires and one of [X,Y, Z]. So the ability to have variation is limited. CA3 + one of fighter strategy 2 or one of Fighter Strategy 3 would be the only way you could go.

[Cetus]

I'm not sure where the extra debate came from regarding other classes. If a poster is unsatisfied with, say, the rogues pre requisites for acquiring their respective prestige enhancements; by all means, start a thread as I did here concerning fighters.

First of all, Power surge and attack boost can be activated simultaneously. the argument that power surge is an "improved" version of attack boost is erroneous because they can be activated together.

Furthermore, a fighter can come along and say that sometimes he misses red named epic mobs and the attack boost is useful. This would immediately push the argument backward.

The thread here, specifically concerns the critical accuracy line. Principally because critical hit confirmation has been a parameter largely ignored in this game by ALL classes as they build their characters, not just fighters.

My suggestion entailed a minor change to critical accuracy so it provided actual damage improvements. Or to make confirming critical hits significantly more difficult to give fighters an edge in having a "higher" chance to confirm with also the added effect of acquiring a now useful "power critical" feat.

[Cetus]

Kensai III prereq should be changed to requires one of: Critical accuracy III or any fighter strategy III

I like this suggestion way more from the flavor side than "crit confirmation," since its actually tactics were dealing with here now.

[Emili]

Well, each PrE in game got something useless in pre req, that you woudn't take if you didn't had to.
Who should kensai be only exception?

Well not really true anymore... most PrE utilize one to two feats and really fall in sway to 4ap on average which normally they would not take given state of thier character...

i.e. spell singer requires 2ap in concentration bards would not normally take but the rest of the prerequisites actually have value for the class.

i.e. berzerkers used to complain about cleave... however the fix on cleave months back made it a "Must Have" for mighty cleave which is in scope one of the most powerful melee attacks in game currently - it's just that good. Barb's always complained about 10ap wasted in damage boost which of course is now one of the most sought after enhancements on a DPS character.

There are no useless AP nor feat listed here for a barb currently - it's all great if not the epitome of what every barb would take at the moment - totally enhances the PrE.

Berzerker I - Barb damage boost II, Barb power rage I, Barb Power Attack I, feat Power Attack, Cleave
Berzerker II - Barb damage boost III, Barb power rage II, Barb Power Attack II
Berzerker III - Barb damage boost IV, Barb power rage III, Barb Power Attack III



The entire PrE including prereqs are now not only useful but highly desired.

In comparison now....

Kensie I - fighter attack boost I (1ap), fighter critical accuracy I (1ap), feat: fighter weapon specialization
Kensie I - fighter attack boost II (2ap), fighter critical accuracy II (2ap), feat: fighter greater weapon specialization
Kensie I - fighter attack boost III (3ap), fighter critical accuracy III (3ap), feat: fighter Superior weapon focus


Nobody I know who builds a fighter right utilizes the fighter Attack boosts that I know of... and fighters accuracy for crits are normally +12 to +16 due every real melee uses seeker (for the damage) ...

You roll to confirm critical, you roll a 1(+82) critical confirmed. (<- the bloody thing gets the same +15 from the attack seq stacking too)

That is 32 above Malicia's 68ac (possibly the highest boss ac in game at the moment)... I have never got a crit fail on her from my kensei.

Kensei itself adds so much "to-hit" it's bloody ridiculas... In a raid buffed party My fighter is running around with a "to-hit" higher than most the barbs possessing 20+ strength higher than her...

two feats (which every fighter would normally take) and 12ap (no fighter would touch outside the PrE), and one feat (one feat noone would take if not for the pre)

Now I am not saying it needs to be changed ... but these people have a point all 12 ap and a feat of the pre-reqs possess next to no value to the class... when we examine other PrE every single other have at most 6 worthless AP and very few have a useless feat to the PrE, then when we get berzerker - the whole dang thing is great.

I remember when the dev's discussed what thier idea of a Kensei was... how many of you do?

[Cetus]

[COLOR="plum"]

You roll to confirm critical, you roll a 1(+82) critical confirmed. (<- the bloody thing gets the same +15 from the attack seq stacking too)

That is 32 above Malicia's 68ac (possibly the highest boss ac in game at the moment)... I have never got a crit fail on her from my kensei.

Kensei itself adds so much "to-hit" it's bloody ridiculas... In a raid buffed party My fighter is running around with a "to-hit" higher than most the barbs possessing 20+ strength higher than her...

I remember when the dev's discussed what thier idea of a Kensei was... how many of you do?

Yea- you pretty much hit it on the head. I'm not sure why critical accuracy is called an "enhancement" when it effectively enhances nothing. Its like beating a dead dog in terms of gain.

[eulogy098]

not signed.

the primary weakness of the Kensei fighter is the lack of enhancement flexibility, it should remain that way and by forcing fighters to waste AP on attack boost and crit accuracy it works out.

Fighters have room to play around with feats, they dont get room to play around with AP. As opposed to barbs who have room to play around with enhancements (well not much..) and have no room to play around with feats.


Just be grateful that you're not a Paladin, who has no room to play around with either feats or enhancements.

[Bladedge]

I think both the critical accuracy enhancements and power critical feat should add to crit damage as well as confirm critical. The overall dps increase from this would be very small (especially with the new fortification numbers on bosses), but at least they would seem less useless.


This is how I always pictured how both enhancement and feat should be.

But until that time it falls under my useless feat/enhancement category.

[hit_fido]

the primary weakness of the Kensei fighter is the lack of enhancement flexibility, it should remain that way and by forcing fighters to waste AP on attack boost and crit accuracy it works out.

The proposal wasn't to increase flexibility by removing pre-requisites altogether. The proposal is to make the pre-requisites not a complete waste of AP. You could still force Critical Accuracy III for all pure kensai and deny them the flexibility of choosing something else. But as op suggests, make Critical Accuracy III return at least some value.

[Cetus]

not signed.

the primary weakness of the Kensei fighter is the lack of enhancement flexibility, it should remain that way and by forcing fighters to waste AP on attack boost and crit accuracy it works out.

Fighters have room to play around with feats, they dont get room to play around with AP. As opposed to barbs who have room to play around with enhancements (well not much..) and have no room to play around with feats.


Just be grateful that you're not a Paladin, who has no room to play around with either feats or enhancements.

This is not a question of flexibility- although granted, more flexibility would correct this issue by simply just NOT taking these useless enhancemnts.

This is, however, an issue of an enhancement actually enhancing an aspect of your character. Critical accuracy is entirely, utterly, and completely worthless in the complete sense of the word. Why should there be a waste of ap on thin air to satify a PrE?

[Habreno]

Kinda like Improved Turning for Clerics?

Answer is because they can- though I would be opposed to a +1 seeker effect per tier. How about:

Critical Accuracy I: Your critical threats gain an extra 2 on the confirmation roll.
Critical Accuracy II: Your critical threats gain an extra point of seeker damage.
Critical Accuracy III: Your critical threats gain an extra 2 on the confirmation roll. This stacks with Critical Accuracy I.
Critical Accuracy IV: Your critical threats gain an extra 2 point of seeker damage, and an extra 2 on the confirmation roll. These bonuses stack with the previous Critical Accuracy tiers.

*Hidden bonus effect coupled with capstone*

Critical Accuracy IV: Bonus Effect: You have a 50% chance to confirm a critical on a die roll one below your critical threat range. If confirmed, this critical gains an extra multiplier- as does any natural 20 critical.

EX: If your critical threat roll is 13-20 X2, a roll of 13 through 20 would crit for X2, and a roll of 12 has a 50% chance to crit for X3. A 20 also crits for X3.


If that is too OP, then add Critical Accuracy V- which is also 4 AP, and is available after grabbing the fighter capstone- and have the bonus effect be Critical Accuracy V.

[voodoogroves]

I'm in agreement with others who say that some of these are a tax - pure and simple.

Let me take haste boost instead of damage boost on my assassin ... and let me not take the turning enhancements on my radiant servant ... and let me not take energy of the whatever.

Remove it from one, remove it from all. Otherwise, no.

[Cetus]

I'm in agreement with others who say that some of these are a tax - pure and simple.

Let me take haste boost instead of damage boost on my assassin ... and let me not take the turning enhancements on my radiant servant ... and let me not take energy of the whatever.

Remove it from one, remove it from all. Otherwise, no.

When PrE were introduced, they weren't applied to *evryone* either. Some classes *still* don't have theirs finished. And what, you're ok with that but not the usefulness of a single enhancement leading to a PrE on a class this thread concerns?

[Emili]

The proposal wasn't to increase flexibility by removing pre-requisites altogether. The proposal is to make the pre-requisites not a complete waste of AP. You could still force Critical Accuracy III for all pure kensai and deny them the flexibility of choosing something else. But as op suggests, make Critical Accuracy III return at least some value.

Except every feat and enhancement on a berzerker is total payoff in the class... On a fighter it's 50/50 ... people always toss out explaination as the fighter bonus feats to be something compared to AP enhancements like this and it's just not true.

The fighter bonus feats are the equal of another class' built in feat abilities - nothing more. Had fighters the option of feating in other class' abilities like "fast movement", "DR", "Mighty Rage" instead of four or five toughness ... then maybe you may compare scoff enhancements within. Even then you would not end up with a comparable barb... You'd run out of feat space.

When power rage or damage boost on berzerker mean the same as crit accuracy on a kensei then is par.

[licho]

My suggestion:

a) Reduce the ap cost to 1 ap per tier if you absolutely feel that we need it.
This is what i agree with, there is a lot of enchantments which are ridoculous overpriced.
b) Turn the bonus into a +1 seeker type effect per tier, so we have the confirm and the dmg aspect of it (stacking with item based seeker items of course) in addition to incentive to grab the 4th tier as well- which, as of right now, nobody does.
This also sounds sane.
c) Rework critical hit confirmation in the game, make them slightly harder to do, so it bears usefulness to have an even higher confirm for fighters versus other classes and even provides usefulness for the feat: Power critical.
This one i dont like, its bad practice to modify whole game system to fit single PrE


Comment in bold.
Generally i agree that something should be done with confirm criticals.
There is no reason to force players to spend AP for crappy enchantments which they have no use from.
We play for fun, and buying trash is not fun.
Even with fixing that issue there will be still underdog in shape of Attack Boost so the AP selecion stil be not perfect.



The fighter bonus feats are the equal of another class' built in feat abilities - nothing more. Had fighters the option of feating "fast movement", "DR", "Mighty Rage" instead of four or five toughness ... then maybe you may compare scoff enhancements within.


I like this. The DDO fighters always look for me as sad as limited. I like the vision of fighter class as template "make your own fighter from cubes"

[Cetus]

Comment in bold.
Generally i agree that something should be done with confirm criticals.
There is no reason to force players to spend AP for crappy enchantments which they have no use from.
We play for fun, and buying trash is not fun.
Even with fixing that issue there will be still underdog in shape of Attack Boost so the AP selecion stil be not perfect.



I like this. The DDO fighters always look for me as sad as limited. I like the vision of fighter class as template "make your own fighter from cubes"

Yea thats a fair evaluation of my third point.

Also- buying trash is not fun is a great summary of this thread.

+1

[voodoogroves]

I'd rather they made the tax-APs more useful rather than removing it.

It's still a tax - so it doesn't have to be something as crazy good as haste boost ... but still, better than what they are. I'm staring at Bladesworn too ...

[gwenniez]

a lot of pre's needs a useless thing..

barbariens need to take a crappy feat to flag for frenzied berserker and they are
a lot more feat starved then fighters are.

bards need to get inspired bravery III . Like +3 to fear means anything end game\
once you get gh.. and can play song of gh.. useless

clerics need improved turning... useless

paladin knight of the chalice courage of good and energy of the templar II at 3 you need to take a
4 ap enh to flag for kotc III wich is borderline useless too.

stalwart item defense II lol ? and ac boost..

paladin hunter of the dead improved turning III and extra turning III thats 12 ap..

rogue mechanic.. lol dont get me started on this one.. useless pre altogether..

wizard archmage energy of the scholar 4..

so yea.. you see fighters with there countless feats.. and actually working pre don't
have it that bad compared to other classes. Most pre needs a useless ap enh.. some
don't. but try not to be tunnelvisioned on your class alone. I have a 20 kensai fighter
too, was a ticked off that i had to take that useless feat.. yea but i played enough other
classes to know that its a common thing to expect.. so i picked it and moved on.

if i rememebr right the kensai set has a crit enh too.. thats just what kensais do
they hit hard and fast and never miss a crit.. roll wise.. not that the last thing is special..
but still..

[Ghibly]

/signed

[Soleran]

Kensei seem to get double dipped for pre requirements being feat heavy and ap heavy as compared to other classes, pre's.

It would be nice if they allowed for tactics lines to be the enhancements required rather then confirm crits.

[Brennie]

I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I believe every PrE should be balanced in that it forces you to take something that you may not have normally chosen as "optimal", but still confers *some* kind of benefit to a character (Especially if it helps bolster the strengths and shore up the weaknesses of a particular PrE).

Look at battle engineer: Requires One of: Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons, Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons, Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons, Weapon Focus: Thrown Weapons
Requires All of: Artificer Damage Boost II, Artificer Crossbow Attack I, Artificer Crossbow Damage I

Not only are the requirements broad and light, they are *ALL* things a crossbow focused artificer (which, i remind you, is the focus of this PrE) would take *anyway*. Granted, this is only the first tier, and the next 2 might become more onerous... but frankly, this PrE seems like the dream for PRE pre-reqs.

To the OP - I'd rather the Kensai prereqs than the Tempest prereqs any day. For a non-AC focused tempest (Aka most of them. Pretty much any Tempest that doesn't have a monk splash) you have three of your seven feats used up on complete and utter junk. Mobility especially irks me, since tumble isn't even a ranger class skill (not that it would matter if it was, because it is just that bad, but still...). Tier 2 requires ranger dex 2. That's 6 AP for +1 reflex saves, +1 ac, and +1 to balance/tumble/sneaking. Whoopededoo. Tier 3 requires you to spend your ANOTHER feat! That's 4 of 7 feats, leaving you only 3 to use at your discretion! Now, for an AC focused ranger, some of these prereqs aren't terrible, and mesh well with the shield bonuses form Tempest... but it seems ridiculous to me that a prestige line should *only* work when multiclassed!

To sum up - Prestige Pre-reqs may need some revamping, either by changing the necessary prerequisites, or by changing what the pre-reqs actually *do* (Much the same way cleave and damage boost have been changed for the better).

On a side note, i vote for critical accuracy being +1 stacking seeker per tier. I also think the Power Critical feat should be a seeker bonus as well (which is unrelated to the topic, but geez... how useless is taht feat?!)

[Emili]

a lot of pre's needs a useless thing..

barbariens need to take a crappy feat to flag for frenzied berserker and they are
a lot more feat starved then fighters are.

..

Two feats ... Power Attack (which every melee takes) and Cleave (which was a poor choice at one time ) but is now a feat leads to supreme cleave which is awesome DPS wise today, and every frenzied concerned with real DPS loves it now.

Kensei also requires feats ... weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization and superior weapon focus (all of which require two other feats - weapon focus and greater weapon focus) ... so a total of five Two of these five feats are good and the other three are marginal to bad for the costing the feat slots they take up... then 12 of (attack boost + critical accuracy) of taxed (wasted) ap.

So, Berzerker costs - two good feats, Kensei costs - five feats (two good, three meh)...

Kensei is far more costly to the fighter than berzerker is to a barbarian by far... all of the prereq feats for berzerker have pay-off towards being a good berzerker, all the ap used for berzerker all have pay-off towards being a good berzerker. We cannot say the same about kensei at all. Yes some other PrE's have tax in them and I tallied 4ap to 8 ap and or a feat you would normally not take but Kensei get taxed three feats and 12ap... then of course everyone say "but fighters are feat rich" <- which is a falacy and I'll show you why.

The fighter "bonus feats" are what they get in place of other classes "granted abilities" - things like "mighty rage" are called abilities but are really are in escence "feats" - "evasion", "rage", "fast movement", "bow strength", "DR" are what should be compared to a fighter's "bonus feats"... So sure a fighter get eleven bonus feat slots but you're suppose to compare those to granted abilities whereas a ranger gets fiffteen or barbarian gets eleven granted abilities.

So... set those "bonus feats" aside... those really are a fighter's "granted abilities" yes they're selectable but those are par one to one with "DR" and "Tireless Rage" ... A fighter gets seven feats just like everyone else.

I know other PrE's have some unusable mundane AP and feat expenditure, kensei though imho is double taxed in comaprison to them all... and so you may know the names in the signature below really are: level 20 warchanter, level 20 AoV, level 20 AA, level 20 kotc, level 20 tempest, level 20 kensei, level 20cleric, level 20 monk, level 20 berzerker, level 20 tempest, level 20 assasin, level 20 spell singer and level 20 pale master.

[Cold_Stele]

not signed.

the primary weakness of the Kensei fighter is the lack of enhancement flexibility.

Wrong.

Kensai has two primary weaknesses -

1. It relies on short term boosts.

2. Kensai III increases DPS thru crits.


Both got nerfed in U11.

[Soleran]

[B][COLOR="Lime"]To the OP - I'd rather the Kensai prereqs than the Tempest prereqs any day. For a non-AC focused tempest (Aka most of them. Pretty much any Tempest that doesn't have a monk splash) you have three of your seven feats used up on complete and utter junk. Mobility especially irks me, since tumble isn't even a ranger class skill (not that it would matter if it was, because it is just that bad, but still...). Tier 2 requires ranger dex 2. That's 6 AP for +1 reflex saves, +1 ac, and +1 to balance/tumble/sneaking. Whoopededoo. Tier 3 requires you to spend your ANOTHER feat! That's 4 of 7 feats, leaving you only 3 to use at your discretion! Now, for an AC focused ranger, some of these prereqs aren't terrible, and mesh well with the shield bonuses form Tempest... but it seems ridiculous to me that a prestige line should *only* work when multiclassed!


Let's at least be fair when you look at Tempest you get to twf free with no dex requirements as well as archery bonuses that while isn't making you look good with a bow 90% of the time you can drop a manyshot in a room and throw some pain.

Tempest take dodge, mobility and spring attack in exchange for twf, itwf and gtwf pretty even steven there.

The way kensei works anyway I would like to see them being able to take tactics instead of the crit line makes more sense imo plus it would work well with the new improved sunder etc.

[Cetus]

Two feats ... Power Attack (which every melee takes) and Cleave (which was a poor choice at one time ) but is now a feat leads to supreme cleave which is awesome DPS wise today, and every frenzied concerned with real DPS loves it now.

Kensei also requires feats ... weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization and superior weapon focus (all of which require two other feats - weapon focus and greater weapon focus) ... so a total of five Two of these five feats are good and the other three are marginal to bad for the costing the feat slots they take up... then 12 of (attack boost + critical accuracy) of taxed (wasted) ap.

Kensei is far more costly to the fighter than berzerker is to a barbarian by far... all of the prereq feats for berzerker have pay-off towards being a good berzerker, all the ap used for berzerker all have pay-off towards being a good berzerker. We cannot say the same about kensei at all. Yes some other PrE's have tax in them and I tallied 4ap to 8 ap and or a feat you would normally not take but Kensei get taxed three feats and 12ap... but of course everyone say "fighters are feat rich" <-falacy.

Berzerker costs - two good feats, Kensei costs - five feats (two good, three meh) and all the bunk about a fighter being "feat rich" is **** they get seven like everyone else ...

The fighter "bonus feats" are what they get in place of other classes "granted abilities" - things like "mighty rage" are called abilities but are really are in escence "feats" - "evasion", "rage", "fast movement", "bow strength", "DR" are what should be compared to a fighter's "bonus feats"... So sure a fighter get eleven bonus feat slots but you're suppose to compare those to granted abilities whereas a ranger gets fiffteen or barbarian gets eleven granted abilities.

I know other PrE's have some unusable mundane AP and feat expenditure, kensei though imho is double taxed in comaprison to them all... and so you may know the names in the signature below really are: level 20 warchanter, level 20 AoV, level 20 AA, level 20 kotc, level 20 tempest, level 20 kensei, level 20cleric, level 20 monk, level 20 berzerker, level 20 tempest, level 20 assasin, level 20 spell singer and level 20 pale master.



I completely agree with this evaluation

I've been disputing the actual benefit of all the feats fighters have in light of all the free sh*t every other class gets for a while. Barbs and their rage, uncanny dodges etc...rangers and al lthe twf and ranger related stuff, monks get tons of granted feats every level...etc

The kensai pre req requires 3 weapon foci, 2 weapon specs right off the bat.

Each weapon focus adds 1 measly to hit per FEAT. This, in of itself, is completely lackluster for a FEAT.

[Emili]

To the OP - I'd rather the Kensai prereqs than the Tempest prereqs any day. For a non-AC focused tempest (Aka most of them. Pretty much any Tempest that doesn't have a monk splash) you have three of your seven feats used up on complete and utter junk. Mobility especially irks me, since tumble isn't even a ranger class skill (not that it would matter if it was, because it is just that bad, but still...). Tier 2 requires ranger dex 2. That's 6 AP for +1 reflex saves, +1 ac, and +1 to balance/tumble/sneaking. Whoopededoo. Tier 3 requires you to spend your ANOTHER feat! That's 4 of 7 feats, leaving you only 3 to use at your discretion! Now, for an AC focused ranger, some of these prereqs aren't terrible, and mesh well with the shield bonuses form Tempest... but it seems ridiculous to me that a prestige line should *only* work when multiclassed!

Dodge and mobility are lack-luster but are a feat requirement for Spring Attack... which actually have some use, especially in epics at times when you have to chase some mob... If their is one thing I cannot stand it's missing the mob on a swing (even while running). In an epic to a melee "to-hit" is everything.

You see rangers have this unfortunate scope of generally lower str and with that (to-hit) and with fewer ways to compensate...

My Einin (18/2 rgr/fgt) for example is feated: Khopesh, , Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, toughness, Oversized, Ic: Slash, Power Attack, Ic: ranged,

Now then she stands at 38 str pre-buffed (she's only human what may I say)... stacking boat then, rams, rage, she may attain 52 at peak but most the time she's only running around at 46str. In some ways spring attack and oversized help the tempests some.

... as for dex, well all my rangers use a bow and melee weapons so I aim for bout 30 in dex and it helps the bow some and we use a reflex save for "evasion", every class with evasion should have a good reflex save... 36+ buffed is what I shoot for otherwise is no point to it.

[Zillee]

a) Reduce the ap cost to 1 ap per tier if you absolutely feel that we need it.
b) Turn the bonus into a +1 seeker type effect per tier, so we have the confirm and the dmg aspect of it (stacking with item based seeker items of course) in addition to incentive to grab the 4th tier as well- which, as of right now, nobody does.
c) Rework critical hit confirmation in the game, make them slightly harder to do, so it bears usefulness to have an even higher confirm for fighters versus other classes and even provides usefulness for the feat: Power critical.



/signed

I would see the first two suggestions as being alternate ways forward, rather than the last.

[jkm]

I completely agree with this evaluation

I've been disputing the actual benefit of all the feats fighters have in light of all the free sh*t every other class gets for a while. Barbs and their rage, uncanny dodges etc...rangers and al lthe twf and ranger related stuff, monks get tons of granted feats every level...etc

The kensai pre req requires 3 weapon foci, 2 weapon specs right off the bat.

Each weapon focus adds 1 measly to hit per FEAT. This, in of itself, is completely lackluster for a FEAT.

A lot of this is because they don't exploit the enhancement system like they should. Fighters should have 100s of enhancements by now that would created millions of build permutations. If GWF/SWF opened up enhancements that made them more powerful, it wouldn't be as big of an issue taking them.

[Cetus]

A lot of this is because they don't exploit the enhancement system like they should. Fighters should have 100s of enhancements by now that would created millions of build permutations. If GWF/SWF opened up enhancements that made them more powerful, it wouldn't be as big of an issue taking them.

Thats definitely one avenue for improving it. Create more enhancement lines spinning off the feats.

[Astraghal]

Look I've been down this road before with Rogues. They have to spend almost 1/2 of their action points for their PrEs (Fairly sure Acrobate will be over 1/2 when Tier 3 comes out). You should just thanks the stars that kensai didn't require Figther Jump 2 and Fighter Repair 2.

Fighters don't get to insta-kill Epic mobs or do the most melee DPS in the game though at the end when they've spend ALL their enhancement points.