12 Monk/7 Rogue/1 X - advice needed

[Lithandor]

I want to make a build with 12 monk/7 Rogue/1 Fighter or Ranger. The goal of the build is to be a good soloing build, while still doing adequate dps in a group. I want to for the dark path and ninja spy enhancements. Most of the time will likely be spent in earth stance while soloing or air stance while in a group.


I have a couple of things I'm not certain about though:

-> STR vs DEX vs WIS
Because of MAD, the build will balance the 3 stats upon creation. But where to put the level ups? My first idea was making the build a halfling DEX build aiming for good AC.



I then started thinking, what if I go for WIS instead. That would also boost my AC, but it would increase the difficulties for my offensive abilities. Stunning fist and ToD are a no-brainers, but as a dark monk you also get the finishers that can be saved against and even unbalancing strike sounds like it could be nice to enable my sneak attacks on something else than a Fort save.
So onto my question: With only 12 levels of monk, would I still be able to get meaningful DC's for my spell like abilities?
What I am also uncertain about: as a WIS based monk, will I have trouble hitting?



The third option would be the default one, aim for STR. That would allow me to replace weapon finesse with stunning blow. In that case, halfling doesn't seem that attractive as a race choice. So what to go for then?

- human: extra skill points and feat don't seem needed on this build. Damage boost (U11) is covered by rogue levels. More healing amp seems nice though

- half-elf: same as human, except for dilletante feats. Fighter could be useful for stun DC's and +1 STR or barbarian for 20 extra HP.

- WF: this is what I'm currently leaning towards. Mainly for the immunities, but tactics and power attack enhancements seem like a nice treat, too. I'm just a little worried about the healing disabilities of WF.

- half-orc: the strong, the bad and the ugly, all in one package. Seems like a no-brainer option for a STR build, but I'm not really a huge fan of them tbh.



Finally there's fighter vs ranger. Fighter would give 34 extra HP (toughness feat and enhancement) while ranger gives +3 dmg vs evil outsiders and sprint boost. The level would be taken very late in the progression so the decision can be postponed.

[Hurak]

With only 12 levels of monk, would I still be able to get meaningful DC's for my spell like abilities?
No. Most of the monk skills include your level in the dc modifier. At the higher levels and difficulties, you'll miss most times.

What I am also uncertain about: as a WIS based monk, will I have trouble hitting?
My current TR monk has a starting str of 16 and wis 13, but I can still get a stunning fist dc of 40 which works in epics moderately well and my str is about 32. If your soloing, you'll most likely be running normal quests and hitting isn't a problem. When grouped for harder content, you can rely on you SA bonus and positioning to get the job done.

Most of the time will likely be spent in earth stance while soloing or air stance while in a group.
Forget Air Stance. Earth 3 gives you bonus crit modifiers and when in a group you'll be hasted.

Ranger V Fighter last level
On mine, I took Fighter for the extra feat. If you playing end game a lot, the +2 damage bonus for a favored enemy would be a good choice.

Race.
My first build was a Halfling 12 Monk/7Rogue/1Fighter and was a lot of fun to play. The real restriction to the halfling was the enhancement costs. This build uses a lot of points and I found the halfling enhancements too expensive. If I was to build this toon again, I'd probably go Helf, but I have 3 Helfs now, so im biased to the race.

Summary
Loved this toon for my first play through but found that my dps would plummet on high fort toons or when soloing/tanking. The lack of ranged options was also annoying. So I TR'd it to a Helf 12 Monk/6Ranger/2Fighter and it resolved those weaknesses perfectly.

Some food for thought for you
7 Rogue + 2 dark monk = 7d6 + 9 (8d6 if you take assassin but its expensive on the points)
vrs
Helf Rogue + 2 dark monk = 6d6

[wax_on_wax_off]

Why 12 monk / 7 rogue / 1 x?

I never did manage to figure out what is better but it's definitely worth considering the options:

10 rogue / 9 monk / 1 x (gets opportunist but still with most monk goodies, hopefully opportunist will be fixed soon).
13 rogue / 7 monk (a popular choice but not my preference)
18 rogue / 1-2 monk / 0-1 x (my favourite choice)
20 monk (dark monk with helf rogue dilettante gets similar sneak to 12/7)

The 18 rogue build is getting a boost soon (U11.1, 12?) by getting vorpal damage on enemies over 1000 HP and is especially attractive now compared to a pure rogue as has an easier time fitting in improved sunder (which is a great feat in U11).

[Adrian99]

It's true that 12 monk levels will be a problem for your special attack DCs. And half-elf damage boost isn't merely covered by rogue haste boost, it stacks with it. So hit both at once and let your enemies suffer big time. Personally I think the real unarmed monster is 12 fighter / 7 rogue / 1 monk. With half-elf cleric dilettante, it's a tough survivor, and will hit a very high stunning fist DC even with low wisdom.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It's true that 12 monk levels will be a problem for your special attack DCs. And half-elf damage boost isn't merely covered by rogue haste boost, it stacks with it. So hit both at once and let your enemies suffer big time. Personally I think the real unarmed monster is 12 fighter / 7 rogue / 1 monk. With half-elf cleric dilettante, it's a tough survivor, and will hit a very high stunning fist DC even with low wisdom.

Or 12 ranger / 7 rogue / 1 monk. Less on the stunning fist but about the highest attacks/second possible of any build (~4.8 attacks/second when using haste boost).

[Hurak]

Why 12 monk / 7 rogue / 1 x?

2d8 (with Jitz) handwraps with Solid (7d6/8d6 +9) SA Damage at handwrap attack speed. TOD, Imp evasion, stances, step etc...
7 Rogue is a good choice when you want a quality trapper but dont want to play a full rogue (At 7 with an Int of 12, you can max out 6 skills easily). Attack speed boosts and damage boosts complement the handwrap attack speed as well.
Both 13 monk and 8 rogue are fizzer levels for each class so why not go a 1x for a feat or +2 dam mod.

[wax_on_wax_off]

2d8 (with Jitz) handwraps with Solid (7d6/8d6 +9) SA Damage at handwrap attack speed. TOD, Imp evasion, stances, step etc...
7 Rogue is a good choice when you want a quality trapper but dont want to play a full rogue (At 7 with an Int of 12, you can max out 6 skills easily). Attack speed boosts and damage boosts complement the handwrap attack speed as well.
Both 13 monk and 8 rogue are fizzer levels for each class so why not go a 1x for a feat or +2 dam mod.

It was a why x and not y or z question, not why x :)

It's a nice build but I'd like the 18 rogue build now more for:
1. vorpal fists (which will do 100 bonus damage on 20s vs enemies with over 1000 HP in 11.1 I think),
2. decent assassinate DC (maybe only on a TR though),
3. still decent numbers possible on stunning fist (as it isn't dependent on monk level),
4. opportunist (which I hope will be fixed now that it has been flagged as an issue),
5. lots of sneak attack (12d6+12) and
6. extra action boost II to go along with haste (and damage) boost IV (and possibly versatility: damage IV too)