Why is umd charisma based

[Hijikata]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.

So you need

a) knowledge abot device to use it. (int)
b) insight to use it. (wis)

Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.

But it only works on living creatures. Mechines and undeads are immune to its effects. Considering magical devices are not alive. There is not any reason to argue over this.

Higher charisma can might increase self confidence but they only blow them up while trying to use it. Even if u have a god like charisma it is useless.

To conclude umd is charisma based because of making game balance ; making bard , rogue more desireable.

[rest]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.

So you need

a) knowledge abot device to use it. (int)
b) insight to use it. (wis)

Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.

But it only works on living creatures. Mechines and undeads are immune to its effects. Considering magical devices are not alive. There is not any reason to argue over this.

Higher charisma can might increase self confidence but they only blow them up while trying to use it. Even if u have a god like charisma it is useless.

To conclude umd is charisma based because of making game balance ; making bard , rogue more desireable.



Oooooooooooooooor because that's how it works in the PnP game on which this particular MMO is based.

[cryptic]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.


Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.




It is the ability to bluff and act like another class or race so well that you even believe it yourself. it is the confidence that triggers the item.

[incineration]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.

So you need

a) knowledge abot device to use it. (int)
b) insight to use it. (wis)

Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.

But it only works on living creatures. Mechines and undeads are immune to its effects. Considering magical devices are not alive. There is not any reason to argue over this.

Higher charisma can might increase self confidence but they only blow them up while trying to use it. Even if u have a god like charisma it is useless.

To conclude umd is charisma based because of making game balance ; making bard , rogue more desireable.

or because maybe you are trying to immitate the class/race that it requires, and I'm pretty sure that any immitataion would fall into the Charisma Catagory (especially since many items would be considered intelligent by PnP standard)

[Ryiah]

Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.

I think the concept is you are attempting to emulate the requirements to use the item - link below gives the example of just waving an item around blindly hoping it activates. The best thing that comes to mind is the mimic in Acute Delirium that pulls out the scepter and just waves it around wildly in an attempt to use it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm

[GotSomeQuestions]

From the D&D rules:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.
It's not about tricking the item, or about knowing how it works. Use Magic Device is your character telling the item "you work for me now," and making it do what you want.

You can also make an analogy to the physical stats. Intelligence is your mental Dexterity, representing your ability to learn, think quickly, and adapt. Wisdom is your mental Constitution, representing your mental fortitude and resistance to mental attacks. Charisma is your mental Strength, just as it says in the quote. And just as you use Strength to force stuck or unresponsive levers, you use Charisma to force stuck or unresponsive items.

Edit: you can read more here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores

[Arnhelm]

Yep, that's how it works in PnP.

[Freeman]

Because it is just funnier to watch the bard trying to use an unknown magic item :)

Bard: "I roll a 15, does it do anything?"
DM: *Rolling lots of dice* "Yep. How many hit points did you have?" :D
Bard: *Sigh* "Time to roll up a new character."

[Therigar]

To be all intellectual about it we need to understand that CHA is more than just a pretty face. In fact, the face itself could be pretty ugly and CHA could still be high. CHA is about making others view you as if you had a pretty face -- whether you do or don't. And, it is about making others view you in a favorable, positive way in just about every other aspect of life as well.

And, we could get all speculative about why this is used for UMD. We need to fool ourselves into believing we can actually use the item. Or, we need to fool the somewhat intelligent item into belief.

But, really, it comes down to one simple explanation.

UMD is CHA based because that is how it is. No intellectual, rational or speculative reasons. It just is that way.

You can stay awake at nights raging against the D&D gods for their capriciousness or you can accept it and just go to sleep. Either way, it is still going to stay CHA based because that is the way it is. :D

[Therigar]

I just realized that my Mom used to tell me the reason why things were how they were was "Because." And, that's the answer I just wrote.

I'm turning into my mother. :eek:

Only my breasts are larger and my beard is heavier.... :rolleyes:

(And, yes, that is gender humor. Think about it and you'll get it. :D)

[Arnhelm]

I just realized that my Mom used to tell me the reason why things were how they were was "Because." And, that's the answer I just wrote.

I'm turning into my mother. :eek:

Only my breasts are larger and my beard is heavier.... :rolleyes:

(And, yes, that is gender humor. Think about it and you'll get it. :D)
This post is made on a Saturday morning, and I refuse to think! :p

[Ystradmynach]

Aside from what was said already, there are game balance reasons to have UMD be charisma based. Namely that charisma sucks as an attribute compared to other five stats, giving it UMD at least gives some advantage to charisma over other stats which all have non-class dependent advantages.

[Alabore]

Charisma is your mental Strength, just as it says in the quote.


^^^
Loved how you put it.
Green Cookies because I love it when people play along the game background.

...

Charisma is exactly that: your capability to bind a magical item's will and force it to do your bidding, following your orders against its original conditioning.

In a world of magic, with sentient yet non-living beings, it makes sense.
Your personal aura is strong enough you can influence both people and... well... appliance.

:D

...

Think about it, folks, whenever your computer hangs up; did you guys perchance dump Cha to get a higher Str/Con...?

;)

[Arctik]

You must be able to persuade the scroll to use itself?

[Therigar]

Think about it, folks, whenever your computer hangs up; did you guys perchance dump Cha to get a higher Str/Con...?

My computer never hangs up. If it ever did I'd beat on it until it gave up and started working again! :eek:

You don't think Chuck Norris has problems with computers hanging up on him do you?

Proof that STR & CON beat CHA! :D

Then again, he's Chuck Norris.... :cool:

[ainmosni]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.



you have to diplo the scroll to use it.

[Alabore]

You don't think Chuck Norris has problems with computers hanging up on him do you?

Chuck Norris is overpowered.

[SirShen]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.

So you need

a) knowledge abot device to use it. (int)
b) insight to use it. (wis)

Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.

But it only works on living creatures. Mechines and undeads are immune to its effects. Considering magical devices are not alive. There is not any reason to argue over this.

Higher charisma can might increase self confidence but they only blow them up while trying to use it. Even if u have a god like charisma it is useless.

To conclude umd is charisma based because of making game balance ; making bard , rogue more desireable.

When i use to play pen and paper alot of high level magic items were like living things. They would talk and someone with umd could trick it into thinking that you were the original owner or sweet talk it into letting you use it.

[Afyndax]

Aside from what was said already, there are game balance reasons to have UMD be charisma based. Namely that charisma sucks as an attribute compared to other five stats, giving it UMD at least gives some advantage to charisma over other stats which all have non-class dependent advantages.

I think this is more the correct answer. In the early days of PnP.. Chr was the dump stat. They probably felt that adding a new ability as powerful as UMD would overpower clerics and wizards if they used wis or int.. so they stuck it as CHR. All you PnP historians, I would love to know which came first, the implementation of the UMD-chr or Sorcs? my bet is UMD

[Aesop]

You are imposing your Will on the item though your Force of Personality.



Wisdom is your understanding and defense where Charisma is your aggressive force of personality

Aesop

[Jaid314]

I think this is more the correct answer. In the early days of PnP.. Chr was the dump stat. They probably felt that adding a new ability as powerful as UMD would overpower clerics and wizards if they used wis or int.. so they stuck it as CHR. All you PnP historians, I would love to know which came first, the implementation of the UMD-chr or Sorcs? my bet is UMD

probably sorcerers, though not necessarily by that name. i think it was a kit back in 2nd edition. or do you mean sorcerers using charisma as a casting stat? because in that case, they both go back to the 3.0 PHB, and came into the game at the same time (well, possibly the designers of the game had it at different times, but from the player perspective same time).

UMD was previously a thief (now called rogue) class ability that they gained at level 10 to attempt to use any scroll. bards actually didn't get it at all.

[Emili]

Charisma

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, to suface inner strengths, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting but draws out the abilities within themselves as well as their environment.

Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks.

Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead.

Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores.

The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

Now do you know why Bards, FvS and Sorcerers use Cha instead of Int or Wis for spell levels and magical potential? Their magic is within them - not studied nor reasoned.


UMD was previously a thief (now called rogue) class ability that they gained at level 10 to attempt to use any scroll. bards actually didn't get it at all.

Bards became a class in AD&D and you do realize they had to have rogues levels before they became "a bard".

... and back to Charisma, this is as stated the force of personality is your assertiveness, drive to attain and scope of depth in doing so. This is why UMD is driven off it and not Int nor Wis. IN AD&D another stat - Comeliness - existed: which quantified your actual atractiveness... it was separate and later they added that stats meaning back into Cha.

[Ravoc-DDO]

CHA and UMD
sitting in a tree
K
I
S
S
I
N
G

[Therigar]

Chuck Norris is overpowered.

Nerf Chuck Norris! <Runs and hides under a rock. Like that will help. :(>

[cryptic]

Chuck Norris is overpowered.

So over powered that when Chuck Norris falls in the ocean he doesn't get wet.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The ocean gets Chuck Norrised

[gloopygloop]

Charisma is also your force of personality. Imposing your will on a magical device makes sense to come from Cha. Additionally, your ability to persuade someone/something that you are something that you are not would come from Cha. Thinking Lawful thoughts as you equip an item that requires a Lawful alignment would absolutely fall under Cha.

[Hambo]

Back in the good ole days you could pick up a weapon that had a higher CHA than you did.

Result? Posession and possible change of goal (revenge, genocide, etc.), Alignment Change, instant new NPC for the DM, etc.

"Force of will" means exactly that... The strongest will takes control. Charisma may not have been the obvious name for the trait but probably the only single word description that comes close.

[Edit]
I just thought of an example in literature. In Terry Pratchett's Diskworld series a character named Rincewind is a Wizard, spelled on his hat "Wizzard". He seems, to me, to be a CHA-dumped character. On a dare, he takes a look into the Octavion, the book that holds the most powerful 8 spells in the world.

These spells are semi sentient. As Rincewind reads one it enters his mind. Rincewind fails his save vs CHA. The spell disappears from the book, settles in Rincewind's brain, and being semi sentient and very powerful, scares all the other spells out and goes dormant, it's presence preventing him from learning new spells as well.

To me it seemed that this forces Rincewind, who always wanted to be a wizard, to adapt to a different way of life, almost Rogue-like. But that's not the point of this thread.

Remember, this is a world of magic, and although there are battles of physical might, there are also those of will. Isn't CHA a factor in spells like "Charm Monster" (I ask because I seldomly play casters)? Same effect as that described above.

[Kmnh]

UMD isn't about knowledge, it's about impersonating.

When you do a UMD check, you are trying to act like a member of a particular class or race so you can use an item. See how all race restricted items have a UMD dc on their description :)

[sephiroth1084]

Last I checked, deception and fooling were the province of Cha (Bluff).

Remember, you don't actually need to know how something works to use it, you just have to be brazen enough to try.

[Aashrym]

Nerf Chuck Norris! <Runs and hides under a rock. Like that will help. :(>

The bat never nerfs Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris nerfs the bat. ;)

[Beethoven]

You are imposing your Will on the item though your Force of Personality ...

This.

You less impersonating something as using the force of your personality to unleash the powers stored within a magical device, much like a Sorcerer uses Charisma to invoke the forces of the universe or a Favored Soul uses Charisma to call upon the divine forces of the gods.

Divine magic has nothing to do with Intelligence and Arcane magic nothing with Wisdom. There is both an Arcane and Divine class using Charisma as main spell-casting Attribute and UMD is based on how they work their craft. However, substituting UMD for being a Favored Soul or Sorcerer means you are limited to the ability of unleashing magics already present in objects as opposed to being able and invoke mystical forces at will.

[Chai]

UMD is about deceiving and fooling magical items, emulating other classes and alignments.

So you need

a) knowledge abot device to use it. (int)
b) insight to use it. (wis)

Charisma is manipulating others, adjusting their opinion and actions. Whether with convincing lies, honeyed words, or effective threats, you make other people act like you want them to act.

But it only works on living creatures. Mechines and undeads are immune to its effects. Considering magical devices are not alive. There is not any reason to argue over this.

Higher charisma can might increase self confidence but they only blow them up while trying to use it. Even if u have a god like charisma it is useless.

To conclude umd is charisma based because of making game balance ; making bard , rogue more desireable.

The term charisma (pl. charismata, adj. charismatic; from the Greek χαρισμα, meaning "favor given" or "gift of grace") has two senses: 1) compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others, 2) a divinely conferred power or talent.

UMD is drawing off the second part of the definition, a divinely conferred power or talent.

[Letrii]

I just realized that my Mom used to tell me the reason why things were how they were was "Because." And, that's the answer I just wrote.

I'm turning into my mother. :eek:

Only my breasts are larger and my beard is heavier.... :rolleyes:

(And, yes, that is gender humor. Think about it and you'll get it. :D)

It's a female dwarf.

[Chai]

Edit: woops double post.

[donfilibuster]

Charisma is correct, of rogue, bards, warlocks and artificers, only the artificers actually know the intrincacies of operating the magic item, the rest just attempt to cheat the trigger by mimickry or sheer personal power.

There's likewise other charisma usage like this, such as that monsters use cha as DC modifier.
Undead for example, use cha for deflection AC, and deities has this deflection as well.
It is a bit unclear exactly how the menacing pressence of a ghost veers off your attacks, but clearly it becomes a matter of imposing yourself against that. It is fairly more clear with deities since mere mortals can't will themselves to strike a god, so in the bottom the undead's deflection would be similar.
Turning Undead using charisma, and the Paladin's grace and using cha for other divine abilities are on the same lines.