U10/11 = WoW type add-on?

[Corwinsky]

Let's call it what it is.
This update is basically following the WoW model of a new expansion in a cheaper way.
A lot of DDO players I know don't like WoW because of that model.

1. Add new gear that makes the ones from previous updates obsolete
All these alchemical weapons and the special spells of artificers are going to greatly increase the DPS of the melees.
They already did it for casters in a previous update with the DOT spells.
These 2 changes by themselves would make any run of current content as is a walk in the park same as WoW new gear (and new levels limit) makes it easy to run the previous expansions.

2. Add new content that requires these new items to be beaten
That's where the cheap part comes from. WoW everytime adds ton of new areas/quests that comes with the new levels and items.
Instead DDO has decided to redesign a lot of older mobs from already existing quests to make them tougher (more HP, hit for more, spell enhancements, TS, etc).
Trying to make jokes around it (mobs becomes smarter from fighting time and again againts us...) doesn't change the fact of what it is.

Seems even golden gooses like us can once in a while see through the goodies we're being given... and move on.
In the past 2 weeks 90% of the players of my guild have pretty much stopped playing this game and moved to EQ2.
I joined just over 1 year ago and was thinking of moving to VIP but have changed my mind because of this update since I'm pretty sure I will have stopped playing this game within 6 months (just bought a few TP using the week-end bonus instead to buy me a few packs I've never done before).
It's boring logging-in and having to pug everything because no one else is there.

Turbine should focus on new quests and stop modifying the mechanics of the game every 4 months to unbalance the players/mobs/classes/weapon types/etc and disgust people that spend lot of time designing their character based on what worked well at the time.
All that for, I'm sure, the marketing goal of making people buy greater wood heart and redesign their characters for the new mechanics.

I was playing Evony and stopped that game just before moving to DDO when they decided to merge 2 servers on a bigger map all so that people spend more money to counteract the negative impact of this new beginning.
Loss of all 5/10 level farms, no man lands buffers, etc

[Feylina]

i get ****ed too about the changing mechanics. but you eventually realize that if these things didn't change then you would get bored pretty quick. these changes give you replayability on your toons. especially in ddo vs wow as the respec mechanism is a lot harder / more expansive than that in wow.

[Shade]

Sounds like your just a big fan of warcraft imo.

These are smart updates that match any good MMO. I've never played wow, but they definetely resemble good updates i've seen in most more generic mmos for sure.

Adding replay value to a mmo is not only a smart business decision, but also makes the game more fun for those who enjoy it for what it is, and want to enjoy it in the longterm..

Sure maybe these things are less interest to a gamer who just wants a short gameplay experience that they can "beat" quickly.. But if thats what ones is after, DDO nor any mmo was never very good for that.

Also your really generalizing a couple changes and over reacting.


Instead DDO has decided to redesign a lot of older mobs from already existing quests to make them tougher (more HP, hit for more, spell enhancements, TS, etc).

This change was very specificly stated to ONLY effect raid bosses, and "spell enhancements"? sounds like a plain old made up idea. the "hit for more" covers the fact some got maximize/empower now on hard/elite.

Normal raid bosses have changed so little very few players will even notice. This was more so to fix the fact too many endgame elite/epic raids were becoming trivial for the few players who actally ran and enjoyed them.

I mean are you someone who regular ran ToD elite before U11?
If not.. Why are you complaining about something that doesn't effect you that much.

[Chai]

This change was very specificly stated to ONLY effect raid bosses, and "spell enhancements"? sounds like a plain old made up idea. the "hit for more" covers the fact some got maximize/empower now on hard/elite.

Normal raid bosses have changed so little very few players will even notice. This was more so to fix the fact too many endgame elite/epic raids were becoming trivial for the few players who actally ran and enjoyed them.

I mean are you someone who regular ran ToD elite before U11?
If not.. Why are you complaining about something that doesn't effect you that much.

Why make adjustments to level 16 quests because overgeared level 20s steam roll them on normal simply to get completions? Then to top it off they leave the level on the quest the same.

They should make the harder difficulties tougher AND reward those who do harder difficulties. We shall see if this is the case in U11.

[Aaxeyu]

1. Add new gear that makes the ones from previous updates obsolete

Nope, they are not doing that.


2. Add new content that requires these new items to be beaten

Not doing that either.

So to answer your question; No this is not a "wow type add-on".

Have a good day.

[protokon]

Why make adjustments to level 16 quests because overgeared level 20s steam roll them on normal simply to get completions? Then to top it off they leave the level on the quest the same.


While I would certainly agree with you on this point, except that even under-geared, at-level players have trivialized the content (I think your referring to reaver's fate). The only mechanic that adds any kind of challenge to it is the penalty box, which is pretty obsolete when the players just dont die. Does it need to be balanced for level 20's with epic equipment? absolutely not, that is ridiculous. Elite TOD, on the other hand, was much more appropriate to challenge end-game power gamers, although the rewards need to match the difficulty increase.

Reaver needed a makeover for sure - even a non-geared level 14 caster can solo it with a fair amount ease (might need some mario skillz to deal with air eles, but still).

I honestly think Reaver's fate needs to be re-done to be more like abbot-style, in which you divide up and have a small group deal with the stormreaver while the other group deals with the doomsday device - it would make the raid much more interesting and exciting, even at cap compared to the boring /afk fest it is now. Probably won't happen, but I can dream :) Throw some puzzles in there, throw some mini-bosses, there is a *lot* of room to improve on this one!

granted, I still would prefer seeing new content over older content being updated, but I think such major changes would make it much more enjoyable, even for long-time players (people still run it for boots, +3 tomes, ect..)

[Corwinsky]

I mean are you someone who regular ran ToD elite before U11?

Not regularly but a few times. Now this comments kind of suggest to me that you think that ToD elite is currently easy and this change is good because it will make it more challenging to end game players.

That's where I disagree, ToD elite before U11 is actually a very difficult quest to complete (I complete it barely 50% of the time) even with level 20s in epic gears.
The same people with which we complete eADQ2, eChrono or eVon6 100% of the time so I don't consider us to be too bad.
Even in normal I see a lot of ToD raids end up in failures (which hopefully I'm not in, just see the LFM repop 40mn later).
When pugging epic dungeons I hear a lot of other 20s that fail epic raids more often than not.

We don't realize these quests are hard because we run them with the same group of people that have well built toons, very good gears and leaders that optimize the group selection when completing with pugs. (Basically I'm lucky enough to be in some elitist guild even though I'm myself not that good, joined at the right time I guess)
Newer 20s or 20s in smaller guilds that have to pug these raids have much more difficulty completing them when playing with less than average healers, dps, hp characters, etc...

And this is not the issue here anyway.
Problem is that DDO changes the mechanic of this game all the time and to adapt and be able to complete the same quests we could do before we have to use TPs or TR to modify our toons accordingly, grind new gear, use new classes.
All this to artificially extend the duration of the game because it's easier to do than actually creating new fun quests.

I don't want the "impression" of new content by changing how a quest needs to be completed, I actually want real new content.
Making old quests harder or requiring a new strategy will not re-ignite the fun. After 1 week we'll all have adapted and do it in the new way.

[Thlargir]

Nope, they are not doing that.
Not doing that either.
So to answer your question; No this is not a "wow type add-on".
Have a good day.

Nice arguments, oh, my bad, you made no argument you simply stated the negative. If you are going to post, at least give the OP the courtesy of explaining your position!

[Corwinsky]

and "spell enhancements"? sounds like a plain old made up idea. the "hit for more" covers the fact some got maximize/empower now on hard/elite.

I was literraly speaking of habilities that enhance the power of spells so indeed maximize/empower not the narrow DDO definition of enhancement habilities from APs.
By hit for more I was only covering the physical damages of melee bosses.

So said differently but we agree the bosses get boosted in defense capabilities (didn't mention in original thread the extra fortification as well) and in offense capabilities.

We'd have to see how much people on real servers can still complete these quests without artificers and all the new special weaponries (including the change to some current epic items: eAGA, eChimeraFangs which become BBs for everyone with or w/o the appropriate augment).

[t0r012]

it isn't that these raid bosses are not getting beefed just to challenge well geared level 20's , I don't think that is the intention at all.

the power creep in the loot has had an effect on every part of the game from 1-20 and they need to make the bosses harder to keep people interested. compare the gear a level 16 has now compared to what was available when the vale came out. the difference is that big.

and that is just the gear not counting stuff like TRs and ship buffs that are now in game

so to keep the same level of challenge to keep new player interested and older players engaged they have to make the content more challenging or make lots more new content.
We already get lots of great new content at break-neck pace but why not grab the low hanging fruit and take the opportunity to strengthen the old content to provide the challenge that was intended and provided at its creation?
heck now that i put it that way , this makes me fell loved. I mean Turbine now wants to try and provide me with the same level of challenge the old,old school vets had , and I dig it.

[Carpone]

Let's call it what it is.
This update is basically following the WoW model of a new expansion in a cheaper way.
A lot of DDO players I know don't like WoW because of that model.

1. Add new gear that makes the ones from previous updates obsolete
All these alchemical weapons and the special spells of artificers are going to greatly increase the DPS of the melees.
They already did it for casters in a previous update with the DOT spells.
These 2 changes by themselves would make any run of current content as is a walk in the park same as WoW new gear (and new levels limit) makes it easy to run the previous expansions.

2. Add new content that requires these new items to be beaten
That's where the cheap part comes from. WoW everytime adds ton of new areas/quests that comes with the new levels and items.
Instead DDO has decided to redesign a lot of older mobs from already existing quests to make them tougher (more HP, hit for more, spell enhancements, TS, etc).

If you're going to compare DDO to WoW, at least use the correct terminology. An add-on in WoW is a UI enhancement, like improved scrolling combat text or other graphical notifications. New content is called an expansion.

As discussed in numerous other threads in this forum, the weapon upgrades in U11 raids are incremental. Are they the best? You bet. It's just like when Shroud was first released. The weapons and accessories introduced were the best in the game. Then epic weapons came along and became the best. Then Cannith crafted weapons came along and claimed the title. Now we have epic alchemical crafting. Are Shroud weapons showing their age? Yes, and they should considering they're ML12 and were craftable when level 16 was the cap in the game. You'll still get plenty of mileage out of Shroud weapons for TRing, and for clicky effects like Raise Dead. None of us are suddenly going to delete our triple positive mauls when U11 arrives.

Also, this update is nothing like WoW or EverQuest where the five or ten new character levels that accompany a new expansion do more for mudflation than any new gear. The realities of the new raids and the new items on existing raid content:

People are still going to craft Shroud items for 45 hp, 150 sp and Concordant Opposition effects, and +3 tomes on their 20th.
People are still going to run Reaver's Fate for Madstone Boots and +3 tomes on their 20th.
People are still going to run Epic Chronoscope for 3pc Abishai.
People are still going to run Epic Vault of Night for Epic Sword of Shadows and Epic Red Dragonscale Armor and +4 tomes.
People are still going to run Epic Zawabi's Revenge for Epic Marilith Chain, Epic Demonscale Armor, Torcs and other misc items.
People are still going to run Tower of Despair for +4 tomes and the rings they want.
People are still going to run Ascension Chamber for Litany of the Dead, Vile Blasphemy and +3 tomes.
People are still going to run Vision of Destruction for Tharne's Goggles and +3 tomes.
People are still going to run Hound of Xoriat for +3 tomes.
People are still going to run Titan for their Chattering Ring and UMD gloves.

As far as adjusting older content, DDO isn't like other MMOs. World of Warcraft, EverQuest and others essentially have infinite character levels. Being based on D&D, there's a specific level range the developers have to work within. There is max character level, so everything has to be (re)designed based on that design limitation.

[Aaxeyu]

Nice arguments, oh, my bad, you made no argument you simply stated the negative. If you are going to post, at least give the OP the courtesy of explaining your position!

It's very simple really: Gear from previous updates will not be obsolete, and gear from this update will not be required to beat anything.

The OP is wrong.

[Caseas]

Sounds like your just a big fan of warcraft imo.

These are smart updates that match any good MMO. I've never played wow, but they definetely resemble good updates i've seen in most more generic mmos for sure.

Adding replay value to a mmo is not only a smart business decision, but also makes the game more fun for those who enjoy it for what it is, and want to enjoy it in the longterm..

Sure maybe these things are less interest to a gamer who just wants a short gameplay experience that they can "beat" quickly.. But if thats what ones is after, DDO nor any mmo was never very good for that.

Also your really generalizing a couple changes and over reacting.



This change was very specificly stated to ONLY effect raid bosses, and "spell enhancements"? sounds like a plain old made up idea. the "hit for more" covers the fact some got maximize/empower now on hard/elite.

Normal raid bosses have changed so little very few players will even notice. This was more so to fix the fact too many endgame elite/epic raids were becoming trivial for the few players who actally ran and enjoyed them.

I mean are you someone who regular ran ToD elite before U11?
If not.. Why are you complaining about something that doesn't effect you that much.

Agreed.

Also, Turbine has some pretty steep competition for player-base, and it's always possible DDO runs the way of Star Wars Galaxies which is officially cancelled and will only be available to play via the free-to-play emulator being reverse-engineered and pioneered by a very small group of dedicated SWG'ers on swgemu.com.

I don't really desire to DDO extinct; however, I do desire an electronic D&D experience closer to what I had with my monk in NWN2 all the way through to the epic levels. Also, NWN2 had some pretty tight PRE's, like Shadowdancer and Black Knight. And.. being able to make Evil characters was pretty good.

Still, a dead DDO would be sad to see. Guild Wars 2, The Old Republic, League of Legends: Dominion, DOTA 2, Diablo 3, and others are all competing for our time and money. I'm glad to see DDO moving in a, as I view it, positive direction.

[Caseas]

It's very simple really: Gear from previous updates will not be obsolete, and gear from this update will not be required to beat anything.

The OP is wrong.

From a min/max powergamer point of view -- anything that isn't the #1, 101% effecient, uber powerful and up-to-date method is obsolete. You know who I mean.

Truthfully, 'old' gear is gonna have it's uses. Greensteel will be seen in the new content and it'll be fine.

The goal, of course, will still be to attain the highest upgrades possible, sure, but you're right; gear from this update is not required to beat anything added in. At least not yet.

Edit: On the other hand, "DR breakers" weren't and are not "necessary" to beat down bosses with said DR. They just make it easier; but, you will find raids that require DR breakers or you get declined, and there will be requirements like that in the future for players to have the new gear or get left in the dust.

[Carpone]

Edit: On the other hand, "DR breakers" weren't and are not "necessary" to beat down bosses with said DR. They just make it easier; but, you will find raids that require DR breakers or you get declined, and there will be requirements like that in the future for players to have the new gear or get left in the dust.
People who are at risk of being 'left in the dust' aren't trying one bit to be helpful. Metalline of Pure Good and Metalline of Righteousness are cheap and very accessible in the game now. For a modest investment of time and plat, anyone can craft a Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane that's pretty darn good.

[Tsuarok]

Here's the thing: in order to keep people interested (playing), an mmo needs to always provide progression. Your character must always be getting better. At level cap, one of the few ways to do that is through gear. Once people have all the gear they want on a character, there is little reason to play him/her anymore.

The solution? Add new gear.

But that comes with it's own problem. If your gear gets better and better, content becomes trivial. Games such as WoW deal with this problem by adding new levels and quests. For a variety of reasons, not all of which I understand, turbine has not chosen this route in a long time. Turbine must instead adjust current content to match the level of power characters can have. And of course, release new content.

If you don't like a game that never ends and always has a way for you to improve your character, MMOs are not for you.

[sephiroth1084]

Why make adjustments to level 16 quests because overgeared level 20s steam roll them on normal simply to get completions? Then to top it off they leave the level on the quest the same.

They should make the harder difficulties tougher AND reward those who do harder difficulties. We shall see if this is the case in U11.
Yeah. There need to be greater incentives to running raids on higher difficulties. The Shroud especially as it has zero incentive. That, or remove the reason for rerunning them when past their level.

[Shade]

Why make adjustments to level 16 quests because overgeared level 20s steam roll them on normal simply to get completions? Then to top it off they leave the level on the quest the same.


Who cares what some arbitrary CR rating says. It's a endgame raid, it should be challenging, I could care less what kind of arbitrary number is assigned to it.

If the game was all numbers a joke of a quest like the snitch or bargain of blood, which are 25 would be a hell of a lot harder then say hound or vod which are 18.. Thats not how it works. CRs are very arbitrary and not meant to suggest nearly as much as youd like to read into them. The main purpose is XP adjustment vs player more then anything else.

And it's because no matter how grizzled and jaded you and I may become, Shroud is not always steam rolled over on normal with overpowered 20s. Many groups get challenged, and enjoy the challenge it presents. The minor increases it gets on normal won't be causing any particular issues for those types of groups.. But the bigger changes on hard and elite will give them somethign to work towards, a REAL goal.

And yes yes better loot on hard/elite is fun.. But it's not neccesary, loot is a subset of the game that just plain isn't and never has to be the reason to play it. The reason to play it is for fun.. And for some players, a challenge worthy of 12 players work together as a team is fun, Turbine gets this and is just brining the raids up to the level that the players have been brought up too.

And no not purely in levels - thats just a small part of it. I guarentee Shroud will still be beatable at lvl16 as it always was.. More so in terms of things available at 16 that simply weren't when it launched - EG shipbuffs, Tr bonuses, stronger loot, etc.

I lead the first succesful shroud elite gamewide.. It was an incredible challenge that tested the best of the best our server had to offer, and we all had a blast. Many players in that group regard it as one of the most fun quests they've ever run in DDO, I certainly rate it as such. It took a incredible effort and ton of practice to get to the level were we stood a chance.. I just don't feel that kind of dedication, teamwork, comitment to a goal is required anymore for Shroud elite, or any other elite endgame raid - and that just prevents players who enjoy that kind of things to enjoy the same sort of feeling of acomplishment and fun that we had in that group in that one moment.. And I think thats something every player deserves a shot at.

We got stronger. The monsters need to get stronger to keep up with us.

Or as Madfloyd says, No challenge, no fun.

And I think for U11, they are really delivering on that aspect of the game well, while not causing any pains to players that prefer to keep things easy and focus mainly on the story line. The normal version of the new raids (and old raids, with the minor upgrades) are quite tame and most ungeared pugs will be able to beat them given some practice, and get nearly the top end rewards as well.. So its well done in such a way that players of all types can have there own types of fun, in different modes.

[TekkenDevil]

Must suck to be a Powergamer.

Meanwhile I still play the game for its variety and the RP. I play through every single quest with every single character I make, and the only comment I have to the whole additional named gear is: Keep them coming. This is a good thing. Add variety. So next time I play the game, with another character, I can have different gear! I keep hearing about people complaining of imbalance this, imbalance that, and I have no idea what they mean by that. It's a co-op game. Who cares? It's not like you're going up against these unbalanced classes. So the Artificers are better at some things. Why is this a problem? Go play Artificers then!

Seriously, are ALL these complaints based on "Boo hoo now my *X class* character wont be accepted to teh uber 1337 end game PuG's because the *Y class* characters are more widely accepted at the same basic role they play." ?? Because if thats all that matters to you in DDO, then yeah, you're right, you should go play something else.

[Shade]

Must suck to be a Powergamer.


Think your a little confused.

It's a great time to be a power gamer..

The complaints are coming from the average/casual players that are of the mindset "give me everything for me me me, other types of players be *!#!ed"
Powergamers are defending the changes already implemented and coming in U11.

It's typical turbine style anyways. Back and forth each major update.

U9: Massively made the game a ton easier in nearly every way.
U11: Tougher, but only in select ways.

U13 or maybe 12 will be easy peesy again so dont worry.

[sephiroth1084]

The level for quests isn't arbitrary or irrelevant, Axer. If nothing else, sub-19 quests have to be tuned to the crowd in their level range in order to provide XP for growing characters while still being accessible to them.

[budalic]

Game needed to be made harder, but not because of u11 - because there was power creep with each update. I started playing a bit before u7; but, looking at release notes, there were no DoTs; no Kensai; no Frenzied Berzerker, no Tempest II/III (such as it is currently), no Artificers, ... hell, no Racial Toughness stuff for non-dwarves... when things like Gianthold and Shroud got released. There should be increase in difficulty to adress that.

That stuff was around when ToD got released, true, but there were no epic items (ToD is lvl 20 raid, right?) that most of lvl 20 players have now - no claw set, for example. Also, no dots and arties.

So, yeah, increases in difficulty should follow slight power creep that happens constantly.

[xandariant]

Let's call it what it is.
This update is basically following the WoW model of a new expansion in a cheaper way.
A lot of DDO players I know don't like WoW because of that model.

1. Add new gear that makes the ones from previous updates obsolete
All these alchemical weapons and the special spells of artificers are going to greatly increase the DPS of the melees.
They already did it for casters in a previous update with the DOT spells.
These 2 changes by themselves would make any run of current content as is a walk in the park same as WoW new gear (and new levels limit) makes it easy to run the previous expansions.

2. Add new content that requires these new items to be beaten
That's where the cheap part comes from. WoW everytime adds ton of new areas/quests that comes with the new levels and items.
Instead DDO has decided to redesign a lot of older mobs from already existing quests to make them tougher (more HP, hit for more, spell enhancements, TS, etc).
Trying to make jokes around it (mobs becomes smarter from fighting time and again againts us...) doesn't change the fact of what it is.

Seems even golden gooses like us can once in a while see through the goodies we're being given... and move on.
In the past 2 weeks 90% of the players of my guild have pretty much stopped playing this game and moved to EQ2.
I joined just over 1 year ago and was thinking of moving to VIP but have changed my mind because of this update since I'm pretty sure I will have stopped playing this game within 6 months (just bought a few TP using the week-end bonus instead to buy me a few packs I've never done before).
It's boring logging-in and having to pug everything because no one else is there.

Turbine should focus on new quests and stop modifying the mechanics of the game every 4 months to unbalance the players/mobs/classes/weapon types/etc and disgust people that spend lot of time designing their character based on what worked well at the time.
All that for, I'm sure, the marketing goal of making people buy greater wood heart and redesign their characters for the new mechanics.

I was playing Evony and stopped that game just before moving to DDO when they decided to merge 2 servers on a bigger map all so that people spend more money to counteract the negative impact of this new beginning.
Loss of all 5/10 level farms, no man lands buffers, etc

1. Totally agree, my topic about this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4049354&posted=1#post4049354

2. I'm also sick of seeing modified mobs like armored beholders, pirate hats on hobgoblins and such.
I think that changes in mechanics were OK in name of "balance" and they threw that balance with new gear to trash. Way to go. I'm angry lately a lot...

3. Hardening bosses... Well its for all those bored old ppl who can only scream "give us challenges i want to fell macho". Yet it kills new ppls chances to join cause they are undergeared cause its hard to gear on challenging stuff etc.
So in the end non-challanging players just run form the game, i see little new ppl and they move on fast.

[Lyzernn]

I love* it when people say a certain mechanic is a wow copy just because wow did it as well.

*Sarcasm

[Tid12]

And again, they are not making old items obsolete as you claim, NEW items SHOULD be better than old ones.
Whats the point in having new stuff if the new items were like a +1 Flaming burst quarterstaff?

I'm a caster and personally, i'vent stopped using my spells just to use DOT's. BETTER, im using a LOT more spells with the spell pass of U9 and not just FW, Hold and Polar. I've never been disgusted with their updates.

They are giving us not 1 but 2 END game raids + 3 dungeons + rewieving the old bosses to make them less boring (because you know, even with the new raids you will still run shroud, vod and tod every 3 day).

Go play EQ2 with your friends if you dont like this game. Can i haz your stuff?

[Nospheratus]

From the title I thought the OP was going to mention the looks of things, more and more cartoonish with every update (Party crashers HUGE room/stairs, stupidly HUGE weapons, too bright colours). Personally I prefer a more sober look to it, but I don't think the players will ever have a word about how the game looks and most people don't really care - probably.

In any case, these items WILL replace existing ones, but they are not for everyone (because not every will be able/bother to farm them) and you don't need them to complete anything that is available at this moment or in U11.

[Caseas]

People who are at risk of being 'left in the dust' aren't trying one bit to be helpful. Metalline of Pure Good and Metalline of Righteousness are cheap and very accessible in the game now. For a modest investment of time and plat, anyone can craft a Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane that's pretty darn good.

Except handwraps.

[Caseas]

Who cares what some arbitrary CR rating says. It's a endgame raid, it should be challenging, I could care less what kind of arbitrary number is assigned to it.First, the only raid that really is 'end game' is ToD, because it's at the end of the game. Just like epics. Vod/hound/shroud and all other raids at even lower levels are mid-game. Level 16 is not endgame, and should not be tuned for end-game. It should be run, on elite, by level 16's just like it was when it first launched.

If the game was all numbers a joke of a quest like the snitch or bargain of blood, which are 25 would be a hell of a lot harder then say hound or vod which are 18.. Thats not how it works. CRs are very arbitrary and not meant to suggest nearly as much as youd like to read into them. The main purpose is XP adjustment vs player more then anything else.

And it's because no matter how grizzled and jaded you and I may become, Shroud is not always steam rolled over on normal with overpowered 20s. Many groups get challenged, and enjoy the challenge it presents. The minor increases it gets on normal won't be causing any particular issues for those types of groups.. But the bigger changes on hard and elite will give them somethign to work towards, a REAL goal.

And yes yes better loot on hard/elite is fun.. But it's not neccesary, loot is a subset of the game that just plain isn't and never has to be the reason to play it. The reason to play it is for fun.. And for some players, a challenge worthy of 12 players work together as a team is fun, Turbine gets this and is just brining the raids up to the level that the players have been brought up too. Gotta disagree with you here, Mr. Shade. Materialism is the primary driving factor in retaining players once they've explored the game and it's available content. Shinier carrots on shinier sticks are hung in front of the player to keep them going forward.

And no not purely in levels - thats just a small part of it. I guarentee Shroud will still be beatable at lvl16 as it always was.. More so in terms of things available at 16 that simply weren't when it launched - EG shipbuffs, Tr bonuses, stronger loot, etc.

I lead the first succesful shroud elite gamewide.. It was an incredible challenge that tested the best of the best our server had to offer, and we all had a blast. Many players in that group regard it as one of the most fun quests they've ever run in DDO, I certainly rate it as such. It took a incredible effort and ton of practice to get to the level were we stood a chance.. I just don't feel that kind of dedication, teamwork, comitment to a goal is required anymore for Shroud elite, or any other elite endgame raid - and that just prevents players who enjoy that kind of things to enjoy the same sort of feeling of acomplishment and fun that we had in that group in that one moment.. And I think thats something every player deserves a shot at. I don't want to contradict my earlier statement; however, I must agree that the 'feeling of accomplishment' is nice, and desire others players to share in it. Perhaps quest-tuning should be related to the Average Character Level of a group in a quest. Mostly 20's in shroud would make it more difficult than mostly 16's, while mostly 16's would have appropriate enemy health and damage numbers. Ya know what I'm sayin'?

We got stronger. The monsters need to get stronger to keep up with us.

Or as Madfloyd says, No challenge, no fun.

And I think for U11, they are really delivering on that aspect of the game well, while not causing any pains to players that prefer to keep things easy and focus mainly on the story line. The normal version of the new raids (and old raids, with the minor upgrades) are quite tame and most ungeared pugs will be able to beat them given some practice, and get nearly the top end rewards as well.. So its well done in such a way that players of all types can have there own types of fun, in different modes. Mmhmm, I hope the reality of it surpasses any current description.

Stuff.

[Aaxeyu]

From a min/max powergamer point of view -- anything that isn't the #1, 101% effecient, uber powerful and up-to-date method is obsolete. You know who I mean.

Truthfully, 'old' gear is gonna have it's uses. Greensteel will be seen in the new content and it'll be fine.

The goal, of course, will still be to attain the highest upgrades possible, sure, but you're right; gear from this update is not required to beat anything added in. At least not yet.

Edit: On the other hand, "DR breakers" weren't and are not "necessary" to beat down bosses with said DR. They just make it easier; but, you will find raids that require DR breakers or you get declined, and there will be requirements like that in the future for players to have the new gear or get left in the dust.

Greensteel is still better than alchemical weapons in some situations.

In a "wow add on" that the OP is talking about, every single piece of gear, every ring, clothing, armor and weapon, become obsolete. Is that happening now? No, not by a longshot. not by any stretch of the imagination.

[Carpone]

Except handwraps.
Yes, handwraps are the red-headed stepchild of DDO. While they are less DPS than handwraps, there are other options for monks for boss beaters (quarterstaff, kama, short sword for dark monks, long sword for WSS monks, etc). My point is that you have to either be ignorant about the game to not have a DR breaker, or just lazy. Most people are willing to help educate the former; I have no sympathy for the latter.

[pie2655]

While I would certainly agree with you on this point, except that even under-geared, at-level players have trivialized the content (I think your referring to reaver's fate). The only mechanic that adds any kind of challenge to it is the penalty box, which is pretty obsolete when the players just dont die. Does it need to be balanced for level 20's with epic equipment? absolutely not, that is ridiculous. Elite TOD, on the other hand, was much more appropriate to challenge end-game power gamers, although the rewards need to match the difficulty increase.

Reaver needed a makeover for sure - even a non-geared level 14 caster can solo it with a fair amount ease (might need some mario skillz to deal with air eles, but still).

I honestly think Reaver's fate needs to be re-done to be more like abbot-style, in which you divide up and have a small group deal with the stormreaver while the other group deals with the doomsday device - it would make the raid much more interesting and exciting, even at cap compared to the boring /afk fest it is now. Probably won't happen, but I can dream :) Throw some puzzles in there, throw some mini-bosses, there is a *lot* of room to improve on this one!

granted, I still would prefer seeing new content over older content being updated, but I think such major changes would make it much more enjoyable, even for long-time players (people still run it for boots, +3 tomes, ect..)

A fantastic idea!

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The level for quests isn't arbitrary or irrelevant, Axer. If nothing else, sub-19 quests have to be tuned to the crowd in their level range in order to provide XP for growing characters while still being accessible to them.

The level of quests is infact arbitrary.
Exp wise: There are level 9 quests that gives more than any endgame raid / quest in the game.
Challange wise: Elite tod (level 23 or 24 raid) is a lot harder than all of the epic raids (level 25 raids). Same goes for a lot of quests, level 12 quest (relic) is a lot harder than other high level quests (orchard, gh, vale, you name it).

So, there is no necessary relation between the challange / exp given by the quest and the quest level it has been given, hence it is arbitrary.

[Thar]

Turbine should focus on new quests and stop modifying the mechanics of the game every 4 months to unbalance the players/mobs/classes/weapon types/etc and disgust people that spend lot of time designing their character based on what worked well at the time.
All that for, I'm sure, the marketing goal of making people buy greater wood heart and redesign their characters for the new mechanics.


I feel exactly the same way from wop changes to spell redesign to twf "rebalancing". Stop changing the game, just put out more content.

[Cyr]

Couple things...

The dps of the new weapons....well they are a point or two a hit above other competitive weapons. That is NOT impressive. In fact, it is very unimpressive. Cannith crafting changed things from a dps perspective and these weapons are not blowing those out of the water.

Utility wise and caster wise the new weapons are very good. They will be helpful against trash mobs while mantaining near top dps and that is very nice, but hardly needed since trash is just that and with the gimping of epics trash in epics is again truly trash.

The levels of quests is fairly arbitrary. I don't think this is a good thing, but it is certainly a part of the game we play. Higher level quests often have junk xp, elite quests can scale drastically or almost not at all (and in the drastic case make them much harder then what their level is), epic quests have a randomly assigned static number of 25 although we all know some are much tougher then others...

Having arbitrary quest levels does not mean that lower level junk should be redone 20 times. Old stuff should be left alone unless there is an absolute need to change something. The devs are far too eager to tinker with anything and everything, but it is like pulling teeth to have them put out the PrE's in a timely fashion (ie new stuff). Instead it's like they want to put out new stuff in the smallest increments possible and then tinker with everything else in the game in some shadow puppet show of balancing.

So no, the new weapons are certainly not going to destroy the game...particularly where it concerns melee being too powerful. On the other hand the side discussions in this thread I find much more interesting as they deal with the wider scope of design in DDO and do so in a more realistic manner.

[Dendrix]

We got stronger. The monsters need to get stronger to keep up with us.


Older players are stronger.

New players aren't stronger.

New players weren't level locked @10, 12 and 14 and farmed those for gear new players will often have much weaker gear @16 then you had. New players will NOT be able to complete the Shroud @ 16 on Elite as you were able to do so, because it is much harder for them now that it was for you then.

So now new players will only be able to do shroud normal @ 16, the other difficulty levels will be to hard for them. New players won't get to have the fun and challenge of doing shroud elite @ 16 like you had.

Without new players DDO will die - slowly but surely.

Existing raids should not be made more difficult. Newer raids should be introduced that are more difficult with commensurate rewards.

[Thlargir]

Existing raids should not be made more difficult. Newer raids should be introduced that are more difficult with commensurate rewards.

Furthermore, a side effect of this approach would be to reduce the need to nerf existing skills/abilities.

[bashemgud]

The way I see it now is that there are many, many options to gear your toon. And that is always good.
This is what makes DDO the game that it is and everybody loves: being able to fully customize your character, be it by playing hundred of hours to grind said loot or by focusing on specific adventure packs.

At least we don't get new gear with Improved Nimbleness on it. Who wants an other carnival pack? Not I (quests were nice, gear awful). Let them release uber gear so that we're ready for epic lvls!

[mahiro37]

Aaxeyu said - "In a "wow add on" that the OP is talking about, every single piece of gear, every ring, clothing, armor and weapon, become obsolete. Is that happening now? No, not by a longshot. not by any stretch of the imagination."

Agreed 100%. I played WOW for years, through every expansion.

Every expansion was the same (BC, Wrath, Cat). Gear from starter quests in new zones was replacing tier gear that you had raided for for months to acquire. Every...single...piece.

This is nothing like that. Not even close.

[Corwinsky]

The dps of the new weapons....well they are a point or two a hit above other competitive weapons. That is NOT impressive. In fact, it is very unimpressive. Cannith crafting changed things from a dps perspective and these weapons are not blowing those out of the water.

Was thinking of overall changes not just the specific weapons added in U11.
Right now 2HF melees in most epic raids and for elite ToD swap their eSOS for another BB for the boss fight.
With U11 artificer capabilities a eSOS can break the DR in a Elite ToD. That's not 1 or 2 dmg points more by hit.

It is going to be a game changer for barbarians and fighters DPS.

[Corwinsky]

The way I see it now is that there are many, many options to gear your toon. And that is always good.
This is what makes DDO the game that it is and everybody loves: being able to fully customize your character, be it by playing hundred of hours to grind said loot or by focusing on specific adventure packs.

At least we don't get new gear with Improved Nimbleness on it. Who wants an other carnival pack? Not I (quests were nice, gear awful). Let them release uber gear so that we're ready for epic lvls!

True gear wasn't top but they're upgrading it. Check the new upgrades with U11.
I can assure you I see a lot more house P quests LFM on my server these days than a month ago (although some house P quests have always been popular for the fast tokens).
I easily see 2 or 3 small problems lfm every evening.

And if gear was bad at least these quests are original and fun.
- First time you see the end dialogue in partycrashers. Don't know anyone who didn't find it funny.
- Or Roderik's taunts and perpetual pursuit of him.
- Even Big Top has some fun trash mobs dialogues if you go through the full quest (when you test your strength, negotiate with the tiefling magician, etc)

New epic quests with items that have true epic values would be more fun than warming up some old dishes.

[Yan_PL]

wow - An interjection used to express amazement
that said, I think u11 is wow type too.

[xandariant]

True gear wasn't top but they're upgrading it. Check the new upgrades with U11.
I can assure you I see a lot more house P quests LFM on my server these days than a month ago (although some house P quests have always been popular for the fast tokens).
I easily see 2 or 3 small problems lfm every evening.

And if gear was bad at least these quests are original and fun.
- First time you see the end dialogue in partycrashers. Don't know anyone who didn't find it funny.
- Or Roderik's taunts and perpetual pursuit of him.
- Even Big Top has some fun trash mobs dialogues if you go through the full quest (when you test your strength, negotiate with the tiefling magician, etc)

New epic quests with items that have true epic values would be more fun than warming up some old dishes.
Yep its all true.
Only the problem is that renewed weapons stay a lot behind Alchemical weapons: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=339260&page=1