Which is King of the U11 TWF'ers?

[Cold_Stele]

OK we've all seen that the best TWF DPS in mod 11 is going to be HElf.

Which is going to be best - the more common Ftr12/Rgr6/Monk2 or lesss traditional Ftr12/Pally6/Monk2?

Ftr12/Ranger6/Monk2 pros/cons -

+1 attack/damage from starting 18
+1 attack and +3 damage from Ram’s Might
+10% off hand proc (approx +5% DPS)
+2 attack +6 damage 2 Favored Enemies
Can get another +3 attack/damage from Divine Favor from active Pally PL
1 less feat (gets TWF and ITWF free but has to buy Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
Diehard
Manyshot, Rapidshot

And the best bit -

Ranger Sprint Boost :)


Ftr12/Pally6/Monk2 pros/cons - (Cha taken as being 24 - 14base +2tome +7item +1enh)

-1 attack/damage from 16 starting Str (6 build points into Cha)
+2 attack/damage from Divine Favor (only gains another +1 from active Pally PL feat)
1 extra feat
+10% Healing Amp or +1d6 Evil Outsider damage
+12HP
+7 Will/Fort save, +4 Reflex
Divine Might/Righteousness - 9-10 x 1 minute clickies of +2 damage or +100% hate
1-2 x LOH for 192HP
Immunity to Fear/Disease :rolleyes:
2 -4 x Exalted Smites (recharges) +24 to hit, +25 damage, +1 crit damage multiplier

And the best bit -

Constant spamming of Divine Sacrifice (3 second cooldown) +5d6 light damage (boosted by AoV), +1 crit damage multiplier (DOES THIS STILL PROC OFFHAND?)


Who wins? You decide.

[ainmosni]

20 fighter

-kicks a lot of ass
-gets all the women
-smell better than barbarian
-people who splash monk or pally must be lawful, and no one likes lawful people in an MMO
-splashes confuse me, how do i take 2 monk IRL

[Monkey_Archer]

-splashes confuse me, how do i take 2 monk IRL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigcXvcy1A

[grodon9999]

20 fighter


Not according to the DPS calcs so take that with a grain of salt. Helf monster/blitz FTW in U11.

For THF barbarian.

[Thrudh]

Can get another +3 attack/damage from Divine Favor from active Pally PL

This is the main reason to NOT splash Pally... You can get Divine Favor through a past-life instead. You can't get Ram's Might or Favored Enemies through past-life ranger.

Splashing Ranger also gets you a decent ranged option for those times when it's useful.


Ranger Sprint Boost

And I agree that I miss Sprint Boost when running my characters that don't have it.

[Thrudh]

Not according to the DPS calcs so take that with a grain of salt. Helf monster/blitz FTW in U11.

Heh, I've been playing a monster build all this time... And now it's going to be top-dog again?

[grodon9999]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigcXvcy1A

I feel 3% stupider for watching part of that. I made my save versus redneck and was able to stop the video.

[Meat-Head]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigcXvcy1A



lawlz

+1

[grodon9999]

Heh, I've been playing a monster build all this time... And now it's going to be top-dog again?

No, it's not. Horc pure-barbarians with ESoS will be (I think, will know for certain after U11 is live).

The monster needs to be helf to really see the advantages in U11. HV damage boost + haste Boost IV + 10% more off-hand attacks + 3d6 Sneak attack = win.

[grodon9999]

For what it's worth unless you put gobs of points in CHR I think the Monster build has about 5 more points of reflex save.

[Cold_Stele]

For what it's worth unless you put gobs of points in CHR I think the Monster build has about 5 more points of reflex save.

Like it says in the OP, 14 base Cha ends up at 24. Ranger 6 gets +3 reflex over Pally 6, but Pally adds +7 to all saves (so it's +4 reflex total, I'll edit OP).

Has anyone ever calculated DPS from Divine Sacrifice? It looks pretty potent...

[Thrudh]

Has anyone ever calculated DPS from Divine Sacrifice? It looks pretty potent...

3 second cooldown is kind of long.

[grodon9999]

Has anyone ever calculated DPS from Divine Sacrifice? It looks pretty potent...

The DPS calc does include this. how many smites will you have? Sustainable STR? What level Divine might?

[Therigar]

OK we've all seen that the best TWF DPS in mod 11 is going to be HElf.

Which is going to be best - the more common Ftr12/Rgr6/Monk2 or lesss traditional Ftr12/Pally6/Monk2?

Neither.

Best is going to be the build that can spam DoTs to augment TWF. The problem with all these discussions is simple -- they ignore damage caused by spells.

With the advent of DoTs, especially Divine Punishment, the best TWF will be the character that can spam and stack these on top of their melee damage.

[Dawnsfire]

Am I right to assume Blitz is going to take a big hit from the mods to the Barb past life?

[grodon9999]

Am I right to assume Blitz is going to take a big hit from the mods to the Barb past life?

The DPS hit is very small. The pain in the buttocks is the shorter rages.

[Thrudh]

The DPS hit is very small. The pain in the buttocks is the shorter rages.

Well, when they are out of rages completely (which will happen fairly quickly because of the shorter duration), they take a pretty big hit to DPS.

[grodon9999]

Well, when they are out of rages completely (which will happen fairly quickly because of the shorter duration), they take a pretty big hit to DPS.

hell all kensais do when they run out of boosts. I THINK you have enough rages to cover the amount of time you have power-surges.

That's the X-factor . . . how long will these fights post-U11 be? In the current game a 10-boost Kensai's got almost everything covered.

[Cold_Stele]

Neither.

Best is going to be the build that can spam DoTs to augment TWF. The problem with all these discussions is simple -- they ignore damage caused by spells.

With the advent of DoTs, especially Divine Punishment, the best TWF will be the character that can spam and stack these on top of their melee damage.

I don't know if you actually run one but FvS aren't the best melees by a longshot, they're just the most survivable.

I just leveled my WF FvS (Stelesoul of Ghallanda on myDDO). DPS is *mediocre* compared to pure melees. It takes *16 seconds* for DP to stack 3 times and start getting big numbers.

If they couldn't heal the rest of the party then no one would accept FvS melees into their groups - without multiple past lives they have the worst melee DPS, augmented by DOTS that are incredibly slow to build up. Sure, blade kiting is awesome, but it's not melee...

[maddmatt70]

I don't know if you actually run one but FvS aren't the best melees by a longshot, they're just the most survivable.

I just leveled my WF FvS (Stelesoul of Ghallanda on myDDO). DPS is *mediocre* compared to pure melees. It takes *16 seconds* for DP to stack 3 times and start getting big numbers.

If they couldn't heal the rest of the party then no one would accept FvS melees into their groups - without multiple past lives they have the worst melee DPS, augmented by DOTS that are incredibly slow to build up. Sure, blade kiting is awesome, but it's not melee...

So your biased opinion says when the real truth is dots do the most damage on bosses.

[ichigo911]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=319101&highlight=aurasurge


GOGOGOG Aurasurge :)

but in reality the 12 fighter 6 paladin 2 monk split is reccomended for 36 point builds and HELF Rogue Dilly

that way you dont get wat u say in your statistics starting with 16 str

[Talon_Oakenleaf]

20 fighter

-splashes confuse me, how do i take 2 monk IRL

Buy them dinner first?

[Cold_Stele]

So your biased opinion says when the real truth is dots do the most damage on bosses.

If I'm obviously biased (against what I'm not sure because I have two melee FvS and a bunch of melees - see sig) then please enlighten me with the 'truth' of how much DPS DP does. WF FvS is 350ish so it's 200 short of a top melee.

[LordPiglet]

Dot's matter most in raids. Because they're the only fights that last long enough (well epic end fights)

DoT's supplement your damage, and depending on how you're spec'd that's a fair amount of damage. My TR just dot's ranged targets and then melee's anything that survives the blade barrier. When stacked though, I know people getting crits over 1000 pts.

Same tactic I used first life, just more effective with my better gearing (torc and con-opp).

[Taimasan]

Monk

[Jendrak]

hell all kensais do when they run out of boosts. I THINK you have enough rages to cover the amount of time you have power-surges.

That's the X-factor . . . how long will these fights post-U11 be? In the current game a 10-boost Kensai's got almost everything covered.


Well, when they are out of rages completely (which will happen fairly quickly because of the shorter duration), they take a pretty big hit to DPS.

Having a non-TR build i can say from experience that the DPS drop after rages (and only rages) isnt as drastic as you would think. Since your loseing about 8 str your dropping 4dps per shot. Now while this can be huge for longer fights it really dosnt factor to badly for the shorter ones. So what does this mean????

Save your rages for the big fights. With 8mins of rage (4rages x 2min duration) this is more than enough to maintain your dps when it counts most. To facilitate this I have 12 boosts (power surge, haste, and dmg) on mine so that i can use different combinations to still do the job and still have plenty left for going balls out (rage + powersurge + haste boost) on bosses.

[CoasterHops]

Monk as above, half elf, 12 mnk,8 fighter u11 wraps, stunner, acid burst on second ring, rog dili, well at least for single mob targets anyways.

[Alkindus]

For twf it is clearly 20 fighter half elf.

Blitz used to hold its own against a fighter until now.
The nerf to the barb PL hit blitz hard, very hard.
The 4 str/con loss is definitely worth mentioning, but the buff to rage duration is what hurts them the most.
In order to have enough rages to last you through most content, people will have to pick up extend rage II probablly on arguably the most Ap-starved split.
Couple that with the extra aps it will cost to maximize dps on a half elf (HV IV and rogue Dil) and I see no way to pick up all of the enhancements that add to your dps.
If someone feels I am wrong, please do a breakdown of the enhancements a blitz half-elf would need and post it.

A couple of other things for discussion:
-With the incoming increase to raid boss fortification, a blitz is hurt less. I say that because a blitz, unlike a fighter,paladin, or barbarian has no inherent increase to critical threat or range ( with the exclusion of the +4 additional seeker). So, the increase to fort twists things slightly in favor to blitz. (but only slightly because a small portion of a blitz dps is due to 1d6 +3 sneak damage).
- As better items/buffs come into the game, a fighter will gradually pull ahead of a blitz build. I say that because as I mentioned above, a fighter recieves a bonus to critical threat range, as well as effectively a 5% bonus to double strike(10% mainhand proc). A blitz recieves nothing that would influence base damage. So, with the introduction of Deadly Weapons and the slightly better alchemical khopeshes from the new raids, a fighter gains a larger benefit.

They both are very solid builds I will say. But, Zeya (my blitz) will definitely become a fighter if the changes stay as they are.
Edit: Didn't include the other builds in my post because they don't come close to the top.

[grodon9999]

Not according to the DPS calcs so take that with a grain of salt. Helf monster/blitz FTW in U11.



Quoting myself, ran the numbers again in AO's calc (standard disclaimers . . .)

It's all too close to matter.

Pure fighter: 625.86 459.55

Blitz: 617.28 469.88

Monster: 628.71 472.19

This is with Lightning II khopeshes, 3 piece abishai (Charged Gauntlets instead of Claw), Ravager & Shintao, Seeker 6. Up the seeker to 12 and change Abishai to claw and the ratios stay about the same.

Whatever flavor of helf you want will be fine, play what you think will be the most fun.

[Thrudh]

Quoting myself, ran the numbers again in AO's calc (standard disclaimers . . .)

It's all too close to matter.

Pure fighter: 625.86 459.55

Blitz: 617.28 469.88

Monster: 628.71 472.19

This is with Lightning II khopeshes, 3 piece abishai (Charged Gauntlets instead of Claw), Ravager & Shintao, Seeker 6. Up the seeker to 12 and change Abishai to claw and the ratios stay about the same.

Whatever flavor of helf you want will be fine, play what you think will be the most fun.

Can I ask a big favor? What are the numbers for a halfling monster with no Damage Boost, and no half-elf rogue dilly (But with 3 ranks of Guile - so +6 sneak damage)?

[grodon9999]

Can I ask a big favor? What are the numbers for a halfling monster with no Damage Boost, and no half-elf rogue dilly (But with 3 ranks of Guile - so +6 sneak damage)?

Assuming the same gear:

578.41 435.15

[Cold_Stele]

@ Grodon +1 thanks for the updated numbers.

Can you run 6 Pally version there too? As it says in OP - 32pt would start 16Str not 18, Divine Might 1, max 4 Exalted Smites, 5d6 Divine Sacrifice.

[grodon9999]

@ Grodon +1 thanks for the updated numbers.

Can you run 6 Pally version there too? As it says in OP - 32pt would start 16Str not 18, Divine Might 1, max 4 Exalted Smites, 5d6 Divine Sacrifice.

EDIT: Figured it out. 595.48 447.57

[Letrii]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigcXvcy1A

"Don't go ninj'n nobody don't need ninj'n"

[Nick_RC]

Depends on the content and assuming we are talking melee dps. There will be two distinct 'categories' of dpsers in my mind judging from llama.

1. Easy stuff. Helf dual bursters will rule the roost in easy stuff. If tod elite and the 2 new epic raids go live as they stand now then those same helf bursters will be weak.
2. Hard Stuff. Its about sustained dps right at the very hardest level from what i can guage. Im sure after all the people who cry because they cant run elite anymore when they should be sticking too normal winge on the forums the devs will tone it down a little. I hope they dont - at this point on llama there is a very nice jump from lower difficulties.

My picks will be in no particular order

1. 18 barb/2 ftr (essentially double boosts is nice for very long fights)
2. 20 barb for (even greater sustained dmg potential than the 18/2 altho less for the duration of HB1)
3. Monks pure or 12monk/8 ftr
4. cerain ranger mixes. (6 splash with eo and constructs is about ideal as that second FE is now very obvious)


Dual helf bursters will make easy content easier but when the going gets tough(namely those 3 raids on highest difficulties) I will take one of the 4 above. Horc. Not warforged. Honestly on a lightly specced for healing fvs I have no problem keeping a raid group of fleshies up but WF and especially wf with no amp are just a pain. Very inefficient. . Curses are non issue jsut need to have half a brain and chug a pot when you get hit.


Regarding FVS DPS.

In the new raids and tod elite you will not have the sp to maintain DP on the live servers. Mana pot consumption will be rough especially in MA even without dping. The AC is somewhat high on the epic raids - if you are 2wf(or non esos 2 handers) you better get some nice too hit gear else ur mediocre damage will be next to nonexistant.

N

Edit: Oh and glass cannon tanks should jsut gtfo of raid groups now. They will be useless next mod with the death penalty count. Build for saves(reflex), hp and sustained dps if you want to compete at the highest levels. I couldnt care less about what calcualtions say. If you arnt fat you arnt fighting at the highest levels next mod. Rangers and rogs dont cry ur evasion will help some.

[DragonTroy]

i would say the human 20 rogue would be very nice

haste boost IV + damage boost IV +17d6+20 sneak attack damage + rogue past life = godmode

and you have UMD, so can scroll heal yourself very effectively, especially with the new scroll enhancements

oh, to stop what i would expect to be the argument to this, absolutely no raid bosses have 100% fortification, and most are expected to not have more than 50%

[Nick_RC]

i would say the human 20 rogue would be very nice

haste boost IV + damage boost IV +17d6+20 sneak attack damage + rogue past life = godmode

and you have UMD, so can scroll heal yourself very effectively, especially with the new scroll enhancements

oh, to stop what i would expect to be the argument to this, absolutely no raid bosses have 100% fortification, and most are expected to not have more than 50%

Yup absolutely sorry forgot to put that above. Melees that can take care of themselves will be a boon in any run. Wrack construct has no save on llama release notes now so bring the rogs on I say.

N

[grodon9999]

i would say the human 20 rogue would be very nice

haste boost IV + damage boost IV +17d6+20 sneak attack damage + rogue past life = godmode

and you have UMD, so can scroll heal yourself very effectively, especially with the new scroll enhancements

oh, to stop what i would expect to be the argument to this, absolutely no raid bosses have 100% fortification, and most are expected to not have more than 50%

Rogues are their own separate animal, the OP was asking specifically about two different 12/6/2 splits.

And I agree with Nick, the best stuff for LONG fights is going to be Horc barbs. Anything Boost-based is gonna be gasping for air when the boosts run out. But he was asking specifically about TWFers.

[grodon9999]

. . . Not warforged. Honestly on a lightly specced for healing fvs I have no problem keeping a raid group of fleshies up but WF and especially wf with no amp are just a pain. Very inefficient. . Curses are non issue jsut need to have half a brain and chug a pot when you get hit.
. . .

Who are you and what have you done with Nick?

[Nick_RC]

Who are you and what have you done with Nick?

I started playing a healer again. :D Cant fit empower heal in my book and dont have mass heal on my build.... makes for me personally a rough task healing wf sadly. Better specced healers will have an easier time of it.

[maddmatt70]

Melees that can take care of themselves will be a boon in any run.
N

Well you see the Khyber response has never been toward melee that take care of themselves unfortunately but instead to throw more barbarians and clerics at a problem like this. More hit points and more heals.

It is too bad that paladins do poor dps otherwise they might have a good time this mod because their defense as a defender of siberysis is pretty solid with 800+ hp, great saves, self healing and buffing. They sound great but their dps is just so shoddy.

My guess is more ranger discrimination because of their hp issues unless of course there is advantages to being a ranged character in the new raids. Rangers do have more sustained dps then barbarians, but it is almost never that they get the opportunity to show that strength.

My little knowledge of the new raids notwithstanding but ac tanks or super amp builds are really good in Tower Elite currently so that is something to keep in mind. Anyway looking forward to next mod like so many other folks should be fun.

[grodon9999]

I started playing a healer :D

LOL! I'm hysterically laughing at my desk right now. it's SO true though. I can keep a raid group up in Elite ToD part 1, EVelah, etc . . . with with nothing but MCLW unless there's a robot there. As a Cleric though Empower Heal'd Mass huge does do the job nicely.

[grodon9999]

. . . Rangers do have more sustained dps then barbarians, but it is almost never that they get the opportunity to show that strength . . .

Dude, the fight has to go more than 30 minutes for that to matter. The barb literally needs to run out of rages, i've never been in a fight that long.

[maddmatt70]

Dude, the fight has to go more than 30 minutes for that to matter. The barb literally needs to run out of rages, i've never been in a fight that long.

Well yeah we are due for a 45-60 minute quest without shrines. Would be an interesting challenge.

Edit: this actually did occur the whole barbarian running out of rages back in the days when we were first beating Shroud Elite at level 16 cap. The barbs had to have the longer rage and number of rages maxed enhancements.

[LeLoric]

My guess is more ranger discrimination because of their hp issues unless of course there is advantages to being a ranged character in the new raids. Rangers do have more sustained dps then barbarians, but it is almost never that they get the opportunity to show that strength.



Ranged has some merits in both of the two raids.

[Monkey_Archer]

Depends on the content and assuming we are talking melee dps. There will be two distinct 'categories' of dpsers in my mind judging from llama.

1. Easy stuff. Helf dual bursters will rule the roost in easy stuff. If tod elite and the 2 new epic raids go live as they stand now then those same helf bursters will be weak.
2. Hard Stuff. Its about sustained dps right at the very hardest level from what i can guage. Im sure after all the people who cry because they cant run elite anymore when they should be sticking too normal winge on the forums the devs will tone it down a little. I hope they dont - at this point on llama there is a very nice jump from lower difficulties.

My picks will be in no particular order

1. 18 barb/2 ftr (essentially double boosts is nice for very long fights)
2. 20 barb for (even greater sustained dmg potential than the 18/2 altho less for the duration of HB1)
3. Monks pure or 12monk/8 ftr
4. cerain ranger mixes. (6 splash with eo and constructs is about ideal as that second FE is now very obvious)


Dual helf bursters will make easy content easier but when the going gets tough(namely those 3 raids on highest difficulties) I will take one of the 4 above. Horc. Not warforged. Honestly on a lightly specced for healing fvs I have no problem keeping a raid group of fleshies up but WF and especially wf with no amp are just a pain. Very inefficient. . Curses are non issue jsut need to have half a brain and chug a pot when you get hit.


Regarding FVS DPS.

In the new raids and tod elite you will not have the sp to maintain DP on the live servers. Mana pot consumption will be rough especially in MA even without dping. The AC is somewhat high on the epic raids - if you are 2wf(or non esos 2 handers) you better get some nice too hit gear else ur mediocre damage will be next to nonexistant.

N

Edit: Oh and glass cannon tanks should jsut gtfo of raid groups now. They will be useless next mod with the death penalty count. Build for saves(reflex), hp and sustained dps if you want to compete at the highest levels. I couldnt care less about what calcualtions say. If you arnt fat you arnt fighting at the highest levels next mod. Rangers and rogs dont cry ur evasion will help some.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well...

I'm sure smart players of boost based classes will still do well, they just may need a few tweaks. Fighters will definitely want to switch to kensai set over shintao for longer raids. Horcs with extra boosts will be that much more important (which is why I'm still not convinced in the merits of a helf THF fighter) Even with the barb PL nerf I still like the blitz builds (12/7/1 for DB III might actually be a better option now) They are affected less then most builds by increased fort and now have ~10 damage boosts to use when haste boosts runs out. They may want to wear FB instead of ravager now though...

[DragonTroy]

Rogues are their own separate animal, the OP was asking specifically about two different 12/6/2 splits.

And I agree with Nick, the best stuff for LONG fights is going to be Horc barbs. Anything Boost-based is gonna be gasping for air when the boosts run out. But he was asking specifically about TWFers.

the title of the thread does say "Which is King of the U11 TWF'ers?" if he is going for the for great dps boost that is utilizing the new quite nice damage boost, i felt my suggestion trumped the others suggested

although, to be fair, i think the monk would kick mine's rear end in dps vs the abbot

[ainmosni]

Quoting myself, ran the numbers again in AO's calc (standard disclaimers . . .)

It's all too close to matter.

Pure fighter: 625.86 459.55

Blitz: 617.28 469.88

Monster: 628.71 472.19

This is with Lightning II khopeshes, 3 piece abishai (Charged Gauntlets instead of Claw), Ravager & Shintao, Seeker 6. Up the seeker to 12 and change Abishai to claw and the ratios stay about the same.

Whatever flavor of helf you want will be fine, play what you think will be the most fun.

sooooo


we're looking at a difference of about 10 dps lol

[Alex301]

2 rogue is still going to better than 2 monk btw. The rogue sneak attack training enhancements will stack so that's another +3 SA damage.

And while the DPS numbers around 0% fort are similar for fighters/ blitz/ monster, the fighter is going to lose out the most against targets with higher fort. The ability to extend the paladin past life for the monster is another big bonus for it imo too.

[Dark-Star]

Dude, the fight has to go more than 30 minutes for that to matter. The barb literally needs to run out of rages, i've never been in a fight that long.

Every time a barb dies he loses that rage, so fights do not need to last 30+ minutes for a barb to be rageless. And yes, barbs will die a lot on Epic TMA (The Master Artificer raid).

I agree with Nick for the most part, however only as it applies to the two new raids and ToD on elite/epic. For other content, lower HP burst builds will excel.

A build like the Helves Angel (12ftr/6ranger/2monk) will have double base damage from Point Blank Shot within 45 feat, 25% increased damage from the new Damage Boost, and Improved Precise Shot will be great for the new content. The boosts (Haste and Damage) can be either stacked for maximum burst DPS, or stretched out over the duration of the fight, 16+ boosts, depending on what is best. Many Shot is sustained, and ranged damage/ kiting damage will have an avantage in survivability and pillar popping. If self healing turns out to be requisite, the build can take the Cleric Dilettante. For TWF builds, this is my vote for max DPS when you have multiple mobs spread out.

Straight DPS on a single target the nod has to go to a strength-based Assasin 19rogue/1monk using the new alchemical handwraps. If one goes half elf, the boosts again can be stacked or stretched, and that build will have even more boosts to use as Rogue Damage Boost is needed for Assasin, and that boost works on sneak attacks. All of the base sneak attack damage is sustained and, as noted above, they usually have great self healing, especially with the changes to their scroll mastery enhancements.

Having a 6 pali splash in a DPS discussion laughable. Can be a great tanking splash, but not DPS.

[DrNuegebauer]

The boosts (Haste and Damage) can be either stacked for maximum burst DPS, or stretched out over the duration of the fight, 16+ boosts, depending on what is best.

That's what I was looking at with the 18|2 (barb|fighter) or Blizt type builds. They simply can't stack their damage and haste boosts, and so will be forced to have extra boosts over the duration of a quest/raid.

Sure, it might be only a 15% damage boost for the Blizt, but those extra boosts might well be handy!

[Alex301]

The boosts (Haste and Damage) can be either stacked for maximum burst DPS, or stretched out over the duration of the fight, 16+ boosts, depending on what is best.

Wouldn't it always be better to combine the two? With haste boost and damage boost going your going to get more attacks with the 25% extra damage and you should average a higher dps. I guess if you're saving them for many shot it would be better though.

[Dark-Star]

I almost always stack them currently, but there will be times where spreading them out might be better, as you will need sustained DPS. Raids like TMA Epic are an endurance fest.

[Cold_Stele]

Having a 6 pali splash in a DPS discussion laughable. Can be a great tanking splash, but not DPS.

Pally splash come in at 595.48, not sure if that can be described as laughable? Certainly lower than the other options.

Discussing various options for builds is good, and what keeps these forums alive...

*edit* Pally version is 5% below Monster which would appear to be identical to HElves Angel as it doesn't have Tempest I.

[Monkey_Archer]

Wouldn't it always be better to combine the two?

Yes.

Assuming you do 100 dps, damage boost adds 10% and hasteboost adds 20%:

Over the course of 1 minute double stacking would be 132 dps for 30 seconds and 100 dps for 30 seconds. Total 116 dps.
Using boosts separately would only be 110 dps for 30 seconds and 120 dps for 30 seconds. Total 115 dps.

[Cold_Stele]

Yes.

Assuming you do 100 dps, damage boost adds 10% and hasteboost adds 20%:

Over the course of 1 minute double stacking would be 132 dps for 30 seconds and 100 dps for 30 seconds. Total 232 dps.
Using boosts separately would only be 110 dps for 30 seconds and 120 dps for 30 seconds. Total 230 dps.

Hmmm, I'm wondering if single boosting is going to be better for protracted boss fights.

All that burst DPS means you risk pullling aggo and losing your SA damage.

Single boosts might well be best way to maintain your SA and not pull boss aggro from the tank.

Will have to wait until U12 is live I guess.

[grodon9999]

Hmmm, I'm wondering if single boosting is going to be better for protracted boss fights.

All that burst DPS means you'll be pullling aggo, and losing your SA damage during your bursts.

Single boosts might well be best way to maintain your SA and not pull boss aggro from the tank.

Will have to wait until U12 is live I guess.

Your probably better off spreading out the boosts so you don't pull aggro in a quest like Elite ToD, well built defenders will be able to hold aggro but they will run out of boosts much sooner than kensais. What i'm thinking for Sulu on Elite tower is give the defender tank a full minute headstart and tell him not to use boosts until he's half-dead, DPSers spread them out and spam bluff (which gives you a small threat decrease even if it fails). It's a marathon now and not a sprint.

[grodon9999]

Pally splash come in at 595.48, not sure if that can be described as laughable? Certainly lower than the other options.

Discussing various options for builds is good, and what keeps these forums alive...

*edit* Pally version is 5% below Monster which would appear to be identical to HElves Angel as it doesn't have Tempest I.

"Laughable" is too strong of a word, but it's not an ideal split. It is excellent for tanking as dark-star said but if you're looking for a DPS build for U11 Pally ain't it.

Regarding the Helves Angel a smart player who knows when to put down the bow and when to hose down a room with manyshot will do more damage than any those. This does require a little more smartz than just standing on a boss and using auto-attack though.

[Cold_Stele]

Yeh, I was keen to look at other options now that Tempest I has lost it's lustre somewhat. From the numbers you came up with though it's still up ahead even without the alacrity boost...

It's interesting though that we've got so much power creep now that we're dismissing a build that comes in at just under 600 in the DPS stakes.

[grodon9999]

Yeh, I was keen to look at other options now that Tempest I has lost it's lustre somewhat. From the numbers you came up with though it's still up ahead even without the alacrity boost...

. . . against favored enemies (EOs and probably Constructs). Against non-FEs it is behind pure and Blitz but not that far. The Blitz and Pure will have better tactics and better to-hit so it's all very close, pick whichever would be the most fun for you.




It's interesting though that we've got so much power creep now that we're dismissing a build that comes in at just under 600 in the DPS stakes.

My 500ish DPS toons pull aggro over most of the fighters and barbs I encounter outside of the ubber-guilds. So few have all the equipment needed to get to these benchmarks.

[Therigar]

Yes.

Assuming you do 100 dps, damage boost adds 10% and hasteboost adds 20%:

Over the course of 1 minute double stacking would be 132 dps for 30 seconds and 100 dps for 30 seconds. Total 232 dps.
Using boosts separately would only be 110 dps for 30 seconds and 120 dps for 30 seconds. Total 230 dps.

If only your math worked....

132 DPS for 30 seconds is 132*30=3960. 100 DPS for 30 seconds is 100*30=3000. Together it gives 6960 DPM (damage per minute).

110 DPS for 30 seconds is 110*30=3300. 120 DPS for 30 seconds is 120*30=3600. Together it gives 6900 DPM. The difference is 60 DPM or 1 DPS.

Stacking is still better, but trivially so in this example.

And, because it is just an example and does not take into account a number of other factors it is not possible to say with total certainty that one method is better than the other.

Bottom line is, use whichever is available to you and whichever you are able to trigger given your set up (hot keys, keyboard, mouse, w/e).

[Monkey_Archer]

If only your math worked....

132 DPS for 30 seconds is 132*30=3960. 100 DPS for 30 seconds is 100*30=3000. Together it gives 6960 DPM (damage per minute).

110 DPS for 30 seconds is 110*30=3300. 120 DPS for 30 seconds is 120*30=3600. Together it gives 6900 DPM. The difference is 60 DPM or 1 DPS.

Stacking is still better, but trivially so in this example.

And, because it is just an example and does not take into account a number of other factors it is not possible to say with total certainty that one method is better than the other.

Bottom line is, use whichever is available to you and whichever you are able to trigger given your set up (hot keys, keyboard, mouse, w/e).

meh... divide by 2 error... the point I was trying to make worked though .. i think... fixing it...

[Therigar]

meh... divide by 2 error... the point I was trying to make worked though .. i think... fixing it...

I think that you are ignoring the "its only 1 DPS and thus trivial" piece. And, you are also missing the "that fight is over, time for the next one" piece.

In a prolonged fight against an end boss even trivial damage maybe does matter. I happen to think that it shouldn't and that when the final blow is struck there is likely to be enough over kill to have made it irrelevant. But, more importantly, if it matters that much to success then the group probably was over reaching. Anything that kept the "stars from aligning" would put the quest at risk.

Also, if the fight isn't prolonged then having used the boosts earlier might leave you unable to use them when you most need them. I get that in a perfect world this isn't an issue. I also get that things seldom run perfectly.

So, when there is only a 1 DPS difference (or 2 or 5) it might make good sense to avoid stacking and instead run the boosts sequentially.

My personal view is that running them sequentially and having the ability to stack when a final push to the end goal is needed -- well, that is probably the best general strategy.

[lopter]

ok i need to say first off im new to the dps calc im sure i made a mistake or 7

heres a 12ftr/8mnk dps with

gloves claw
trinket epic many facets
Neck Shintao Cord - Necklace: Set Bonus: +2 Exceptional Bonus to To-Hit and Damage
head seeker 6
tod rings Kyosho's Ring holy burst
tod ring Encrusted Ring cold or acid burst
belt Knost's Belt Set Bonus: addition 2 points of damage per swing
bracers Fabricator bracers
Goggles Tharnes
Cloak Epic Cape of the Roc Str +2
Boots Madstone
Armor Garments of Equilibrium

Wraps
Air: Shocking Burst, Stunning +10, Awareness 4
Air: Exceptional Dexterity +2, Lightning Strike, Doublestrike 6%
Air: +6 Enhancement Bonus, Electrifying Blast, Empty Red Augment Slot
+7 in the red slot

past life
rogue
mnk
pal

helf rogue dilly

12.5 doublestrike (6 weapon 5 bracers 2.5 windstance)

die step for fists is 2d8
+7 enhancement

ok so i figured out it out looks like hulked out its 586.15
and babied (str 44 no boosts\double madstone\guild +2 etc) its 533.70


also did a 12 ftr 6 pal 2 rog build
same gear except new crafted khopeshes

hulked out 670.67
Babied with 44(same as before no non sustainables) 623.12


I would GREATLY appreciate someone checking out these numbers as again i am new to this calc.
link for the 2 build is here
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0yLP5L-XfuOMTZhNTYxODMtMWU2YS00MjFiLTkwN2YtZmRmYzg2MmIyN2 Fk&hl=en_US

[Monkey_Archer]

I think that you are ignoring the "its only 1 DPS and thus trivial" piece. And, you are also missing the "that fight is over, time for the next one" piece.

In a prolonged fight against an end boss even trivial damage maybe does matter. I happen to think that it shouldn't and that when the final blow is struck there is likely to be enough over kill to have made it irrelevant. But, more importantly, if it matters that much to success then the group probably was over reaching. Anything that kept the "stars from aligning" would put the quest at risk.

Also, if the fight isn't prolonged then having used the boosts earlier might leave you unable to use them when you most need them. I get that in a perfect world this isn't an issue. I also get that things seldom run perfectly.

So, when there is only a 1 DPS difference (or 2 or 5) it might make good sense to avoid stacking and instead run the boosts sequentially.

My personal view is that running them sequentially and having the ability to stack when a final push to the end goal is needed -- well, that is probably the best general strategy.

Well, its 1 dps on a 100 dps base (1%), so it would actually be 3-6 dps depending on the character. All dps is trivial in isolation... FB set may only be 7 dps, fighter weapon mastery may only be 4 dps, double boosting vs staggering may only be 5 dps... but it all adds up. The point is that 5 minutes of double boosting (or however long you can boost for) followed by any amount of time without boosts is always going to be more dps then staggering boosts. More dps > less dps, no matter how trival it may seem.

The only 2 situations I can think of where double boosting first may not be a good idea is if you may steal agro from the tank initially, or the boss you're fighting has regen or self healing activate when low on health and you do need a push at the end. In either case, it would still make more sense just to not boost for 5 minutes (or however long is required) then double boost for the remaining time.

[LeLoric]

Yes.

Assuming you do 100 dps, damage boost adds 10% and hasteboost adds 20%:

Over the course of 1 minute double stacking would be 132 dps for 30 seconds and 100 dps for 30 seconds. Total 116 dps.
Using boosts separately would only be 110 dps for 30 seconds and 120 dps for 30 seconds. Total 115 dps.

How do you get 30 second boosts? I want this feat/enhancement.

[PsychoJester]

How do you get 30 second boosts? I want this feat/enhancement.LOL, I was thinkin the same :D

[lopter]

How do you get 30 second boosts? I want this feat/enhancement.

sarcasm fail

You use 1 15 second boost wait 15 seconds for cooldown then use another for 15 seconds and wait another 15 second cooldown

Critical thinking before off the hip snarky reply ftwl

[Crann]

sarcasm fail

You use 1 15 second boost wait 15 seconds for cooldown then use another for 15 seconds and wait another 15 second cooldown

Check DDOWiki before off the hip snarky reply ftwl

Fixed that for you

Which ones are 15 sec?

[lopter]

(
Fixed that for you

Which ones are 15 sec?



Early here same concept though
20 on 20 off 20 on


Min 1 20 on 20 off 20 on
Min 2 20 off 20 on 20 off

That equals an avg of 30 seconds per min

Thanks for coming out :)

[Crann]

20 on 10 off. Easier to just call it what it is than exercise so much critical thinking.

[lopter]

20 oncheck wiki off. Easier to just call it what it is than exercise so much critical thinking.

Says 30 whch means

20 on 30 off 10 on min 1
10 on 30 off 20 on min 2

Guess we both failed the early morning reading test eh?

And what's easy generally isn't accurate

[Ehllie]

Have you ever used a haste boost ? :confused:

[Consumer]

Have you ever used a haste boost ? :confused:

Clearly he hasn't, you can use 2 per minute, every minute while they last Lopter.

A 30% haste boost which is on 2/3rds of the time = a 20% boost over the 30 seconds. I assume what M_A was originally going for with the weird comparison.This is simplified and incorrect though.

Personally I would just go ahead and use some proper numbers though.

[lopter]

Hm I forgot they were concurrent :/

So it should be figured for 40 seconds on 20 off for a 1 min ratio

So its 132 for 40 and 100 for 20 = 7280 \ 60 =121.33 dps

Vs

120 dps for 40 + 110 dps for 20= 7000 \ 60 = 116.66 dps
Hb > db > hb

3.85% difference?

[goodspeed]

that video would be funny if it wasn't so very sad. It's like making fun of a special Olympics person.

And of course monks are the best 2wf'ers.

[Crann]

Says 30 whch means

20 on 30 off 10 on min 1 No
10 on 30 off 20 on min 2 No

Guess we both failed the early morning reading test eh? No

And what's easy generally isn't accurate

The haste boost, among others, has a 20 second duration, and a 30 second cooldown.

They run simultaneously.

Aside from the activation time, which is decreased by the feat Quickdraw, that means you get 20 seconds of boost, followed by 10 seconds of the remainder of the cooldown ticking down.

[grodon9999]

And of course monks are the best 2wf'ers.

based on what? I haven't seen math, video, or anything in game that backs this. it's possible I just haven't seen the right monks.

if you're talking about total package and not just raw DPS you have a very valid point. Monks are friggin awesome and the utility they bring to any quest makes them so. if you're talking raw DPS I don't but it.

[lopter]

used 150 second time frame (5 boosts each)

if you start your db 10 seconds into your haste boost each time

Hb = 50 * 120 6000
Db = 50 * 110 5500
Hb+db = 50 *132 = 6600

18100 / 150 = 120.66


vesus stacking immediately

Hb+db = 100 * 132 =13200
None = 50 * 100 = 5000

18200 / 150 = 121.33


so virtually no dps lost 0.56% and still the tank is generating more upfront hate with the doublestacking
assuming same damage of course your hate wont catch up to his until the end of the 30 second period at which time he double boosts and regains a hate edge

[LeLoric]

based on what? I haven't seen math, video, or anything in game that backs this. it's possible I just haven't seen the right monks.

if you're talking about total package and not just raw DPS you have a very valid point. Monks are friggin awesome and the utility they bring to any quest makes them so. if you're talking raw DPS I don't but it.

Monks are already a lot higher than most people's perception of them (including most people who play them). Alchem crafting will move them into top tier end game dps.

[LeLoric]

used 150 second time frame (5 boosts each)

if you start your db 10 seconds into your haste boost each time

Hb = 50 * 120 6000
Db = 50 * 110 5500
Hb+db = 50 *132 = 6600

18100 / 150 = 120.66


vesus stacking immediately

Hb+db = 100 * 132 =13200
None = 50 * 100 = 5000

18200 / 150 = 121.33


so virtually no dps lost 0.56% and still the tank is generating more upfront hate with the doublestacking
assuming same damage of course your hate wont catch up to his until the end of the 30 second period at which time he double boosts and regains a hate edge

This is actually a bad idea as it wastes part of your haste boost for activation time on db. Activating both at same time you can essentially get both boosts for just barely more than the activation time of one versus two full activation times.

[jandhaer]

Maybe this should be on another page but I saw a couple people mention this earlier here.

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?

It seems like it should put out some serious dps (and higher across the board then average rogue as fortification isnt as much of an issue) and with stunning fist going off all your levels iirc then should even be helpful with Epic CC.

[lopter]

Swapped so db took the hit

.6 x 5 = 3sec

47 x 110 = 5170

Total 17770 \ 150. 118.46
0r 2.36%

Hmm not as good gonna play around with other second sequences for offtanks

[Alex301]

Maybe this should be on another page but I saw a couple people mention this earlier here.

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?

It seems like it should put out some serious dps (and higher across the board then average rogue as fortification isnt as much of an issue) and with stunning fist going off all your levels iirc then should even be helpful with Epic CC.

There's the black lotus build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292529) it needs updating for update 11 but the basic build idea is there.

[Indoran]

come u11 Blitz will say: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"

Idk If it will still be the top dog in TWF, but very possibly...

[jandhaer]

Nice think Ive ran into that one before but couldn't remember the name. TY.

[Coldest]

Ranged has some merits in both of the two raids.

As long as you don't run out of arrows on going for a server first and let a bunch of @#$holes steal your thunder. LMAO.

[grodon9999]

Monks are already a lot higher than most people's perception of them (including most people who play them).

I know about where they sit based on the ones I've run with going by aggro pulls and kill-counts and they are good DPS for sure, I'm just disputed the word "best."



Alchem crafting will move them into top tier end game dps.

I can see this.

[elg582]

based on what? I haven't seen math, video, or anything in game that backs this. it's possible I just haven't seen the right monks.

if you're talking about total package and not just raw DPS you have a very valid point. Monks are friggin awesome and the utility they bring to any quest makes them so. if you're talking raw DPS I don't but it.

You haven't seen the right monks.

[Alex301]

Monks can do very nice dps but I wouldn't say they're the best nor should they be imo. They get ton of advantages other classes don't receive, if they were top dps too they're be no reason to play another melee class.

[elg582]

Monks can do very nice dps but I wouldn't say they're the best nor should they be imo. They get ton of advantages other classes don't receive, if they were top dps too they're be no reason to play another melee class.

On the contrary, the trade off is not getting any threat enhancements; barbarians, fighters, and paladins all get additional threat and intimidate as a class skill.

The fact is that a properly geared DPS monk has the same problem that a STR rogue has; not doing so much damage that they pull aggro.

[grodon9999]

On the contrary, the trade off is not getting any threat enhancements; barbarians, fighters, and paladins all get additional threat and intimidate as a class skill.

The fact is that a properly geared DPS monk has the same problem that a STR rogue has; not doing so much damage that they pull aggro.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Chette]

I know the helves are going to be top tier DPS come Monday, but I don't care. I'd rather play my cute as a button, 7% less DPS halflings any day than one of those genderless monstrosities. One of my mains is an 18 fighter 2 rogue while I have an up and coming 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue. Both halfling. I'll be interested to see how they compare once they're similarly geared.

[grodon9999]

I know the helves are going to be top tier DPS come Monday, but I don't care. I'd rather play my cute as a button, 7% less DPS halflings any day than one of those genderless monstrosities. One of my mains is an 18 fighter 2 rogue while I have an up and coming 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue. Both halfling. I'll be interested to see how they compare once they're similarly geared.

They'll be fine, we're parsing minutia.

[Alex301]

On the contrary, the trade off is not getting any threat enhancements; barbarians, fighters, and paladins all get additional threat and intimidate as a class skill.

The fact is that a properly geared DPS monk has the same problem that a STR rogue has; not doing so much damage that they pull aggro.

Threat enhancements and indimidate for all the abilities monks get is a trade i'd make any day.

I've played with some exceptionally well geared monks and while they've always performed very well the equally well geared barbarians/fighters were still able to pull aggro and lead the kill count without much trouble. The only time i've seen monks lead in kills is when enemies have so little health the monk can kill them before the rest of the group can catch up :P

[elg582]

I'll believe it when I see it.

12 monk/8 fighter helf Earth 3 ninja with rogue dilly is pushing 500 DPS (489, but I haven't figured up the extra damage from ToD rings, etc) on the calculator without adding in ki strikes or the new damage boost. Touch of Death is 60 DPS (conservatively), and I'm sure we get a few more from other strikes.

The monster is listed at 565.

[grodon9999]

12 monk/8 fighter helf Earth 3 ninja with rogue dilly is pushing 500 DPS (489, but I haven't figured up the extra damage from ToD rings, etc) on the calculator without adding in ki strikes or the new damage boost. Touch of Death is 60 DPS (conservatively), and I'm sure we get a few more from other strikes.

The monster is listed at 565.

And as a helf breaks 600 against non-FEs*. As does the Helf-blitz and Pure fighter.

Full-****** barbs will break 650 with ESoS, redscale and all the trimmings as long as they have damage boost available.

500 "spread sheet" DPS isn't that hot. It's good and it's more than most of the "real" DPSers on any given server are putting out who are under-geared. But it comes up short compared to what the barbs, kensais, and rogues can put out when they are well built and properly equipped.

You absolutely can complete and quest/raid in the game with the DPSers capping out at 500ish DPS. We did and elite ToD with our third-stringers last night (our third in a row so we'd already used most of our good toons) with maybe one toon who broke 500 DPS and we still completed just fine.

If you're pulling aggro and majorly out-killing fighters/barbs with a 500ish DPS toon it means you're not running with the right fighters/barbs :)

* as long as boosts are available.

[elg582]

And as a helf breaks 600 against non-FEs*. As does the Helf-blitz and Pure fighter.

Full-****** barbs will break 650 with ESoS, redscale and all the trimmings as long as they have damage boost available.

500 "spread sheet" DPS isn't that hot. It's good and it's more than most of the "real" DPSers on any given server are putting out who are under-geared. But it comes up short compared to what the barbs, kensais, and rogues can put out when they are well built and properly equipped.

You absolutely can complete and quest/raid in the game with the DPSers capping out at 500ish DPS. We did and elite ToD with our third-stringers last night (our third in a row so we'd already used most of our good toons) with maybe one toon who broke 500 DPS and we still completed just fine.

If you're pulling aggro and majorly out-killing fighters/barbs with a 500ish DPS toon it means you're not running with the right fighters/barbs :)

* as long as boosts are available.

Ah, so the spreadsheet dps (biased heavily towards fighters and barbs to begin with) is apparently just fine for calculating dps for monks (even though it doesn't include ki strikes) but is not good enough for other builds as it apparently does not take into account some mysterious damage bonus exclusive to builds that do not have more than 2 monk levels?

We're talking apples to apples, here; put your eSoS barbarian up against a ninja with, say, +5 (alignment burst) (appropriate metal) handwraps of (greater bane) and dual ToD rings. Sure, the barb will probably have more DPS, and he'll almost certainly hold aggro, but if the monk is still going to have to be careful not to pull aggro in many situations, especially with the u11 changes to fortification on raid bosses.

Frankly, for pretty much anything that matters, any of the mainline melee classes can dish out roughly equivalent damage, depending on how much you want to give up in terms of other abilities, and monks get a lot of very tempting abilities, so they usually sacrifice some dps.

[lopter]

We're talking apples to apples, here; put your eSoS barbarian up against a ninja with, say, +7 Air: Shocking Burst, Stunning +10, Awareness 4 (appropriate metal) handwraps of Air: Exceptional Dexterity +2, Lightning Strike, Doublestrike 6% and Air: +6 Enhancement Bonus, Electrifying Blast, Empty Red Augment Slot Air: +6 Enhancement Bonus, Electrifying Blast, Empty Red Augment Slot and dual ToD rings Holy Burst + Axiomatic burst( or elemental burst). Sure, the barb will probably have more DPS, and he'll almost certainly hold aggro, but if the monk is still going to have to be careful not to pull aggro in many situations, especially with the u11 changes to fortification on raid bosses.


Fixed that for you

Forgot to mention..

and break dr on everything which an ESOS is hard pressed to do. Which is NOT taken into effect in that nifty calculator

[sirgog]

Fixed that for you

Forgot to mention..

and break dr on everything which an ESOS is hard pressed to do. Which is NOT taken into effect in that nifty calculator

Who cares? eSOS is awful against >50% Fortification, and every raid boss tested on its highest difficulty in U11 (whether that is Elite or Epic) has 70%+ Fort.

eSOS is relegated, for now, to anti-trash DPS and to runs on the lower difficulties.

[elg582]

Fixed that for you

Forgot to mention..

and break dr on everything which an ESOS is hard pressed to do. Which is NOT taken into effect in that nifty calculator

Well, I tend to be conservative, like setting touch of death's DPS at 60, when it probably does that on epics with low-WIS builds :)

The calculator is missing quite a few things, but like all models, it is a useful tool for comparison, which was my problem with the above complaint about it not being accurate. Of course it's not accurate! The only way to accurately judge these build would be to build them, gear them out, then go through all the raids 10 times or so with FRAPS on and then go back and work out the numbers, and I'm certainly not going to go through that much trouble.

Anyone who has been in raids with decently-geared and well-played STR ninjas know that they have "high" DPS; not max, but enough that threat mitigation is a necessity rather than a luxury unless you plan on tanking.

There is even a justification for monks getting equal DPS and extra abilities; they are not a free class.

[lopter]

ok did some very basic ki calculations for a 12ftr/6mnk/2rog build

3.2 ki per attack (extra 3 on crit) fire stance + oremis + base 1

95 ftr boost+haste atks per 40 sec (not inc madstone)
36 haste atks 20 sec

131 atks per min

419.2 potential ki

----------------------------
Rotation light* mnk

6.84 dam earth ki 5
13.68 dam earth ki 6
6.3 dam elec ki 5
12.6 dam elec ki 6
6.3 dam water/fire ki 5

3 second rotation 27 ki

46 seconds out of 60 you can use strikes (14 second lead time)
avg dam per 3 seconds 45.72
avg dps (15 * 45.72) + 0 /60 = 11.43 dps increase

------------------------


pure mnk
111 atks hasted per min

higher mnk 5 atk cycle would probably consist of some of the following

4 dam earth ki 5
8 dam earth ki 6
12 +2d6crit dam earth ki 7
6 dam elec ki 6
2d10 dam elec ki 7


FoD
deal 2d10 additional damage to living creatures plus another 1d50 damage on a vorpal strike
ki 10

ToD
dealing 500 additional negative energy damage ki 50


sustainability of ki becomes an issue with ToD 50 ki is a lot of your pool in one go i dont have a dark monk so i dont feel comfortable working those numbers

[Taimasan]

Maybe this should be on another page but I saw a couple people mention this earlier here.

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?

It seems like it should put out some serious dps (and higher across the board then average rogue as fortification isnt as much of an issue) and with stunning fist going off all your levels iirc then should even be helpful with Epic CC.

When I was first starting out I had the idea that a 2 monk 18 fighter unarmed kensai would be suhweet. Reason being if you had 1 level of monk your fists would only be 1d6(Korthos Isle strength =/). So if you want to go unarmed multiclass I would suggest more levels in monk, or consider going pure, monks get a bunch of perks as they level. I will post unarmed damage chart below.

1d6 - Monk level 1
1d8 - Monk level 4
1d10 - Monk level 8
2d6 - Monk level 12
2d8 - Monk level 16
2d10 - Monk level 20

Source:http://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed_Strike

[Balkas]

Maybe this should be on another page but I saw a couple people mention this earlier here.

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?

It seems like it should put out some serious dps (and higher across the board then average rogue as fortification isnt as much of an issue) and with stunning fist going off all your levels iirc then should even be helpful with Epic CC.

I believe that unarmed assassins are currently *not* getting Vorpals with their fists unfortunately. Whether this is WAI or not has not yet been confirmed.

SA damage *is* boosted by 50% against stunned enemies, but Turbine said that it's not supposed to.

[~sumptingwong]

Strength biased rogues like always...

[elg582]

ok did some very basic ki calculations for a 12ftr/6mnk/2rog build

3.2 ki per attack (extra 3 on crit) fire stance + oremis + base 1

95 ftr boost+haste atks per 40 sec (not inc madstone)
36 haste atks 20 sec

131 atks per min

419.2 potential ki

----------------------------
Rotation light* mnk

4 dam earth ki 5
8 dam earth ki 6
1d6 dam elec ki 5
2d6 dam elec ki 6
1d6 dam water/fire ki 5

3 second rotation 27 ki

46 seconds out of 60 you can use strikes (14 second lead time)
avg dam per 3 seconds 24
avg dps (15 * 24) + 0 /60 = 6 dps increase

------------------------


pure mnk
111 atks hasted per min

higher mnk 5 atk cycle would probably consist of some of the following

4 dam earth ki 5
8 dam earth ki 6
12 +2d6crit dam earth ki 7
6 dam elec ki 6
2d10 dam elec ki 7


FoD
deal 2d10 additional damage to living creatures plus another 1d50 damage on a vorpal strike
ki 10

ToD
dealing 500 additional negative energy damage ki 50


sustainability of ki becomes an issue with ToD 50 ki is a lot of your pool in one go i dont have a dark monk so i dont feel comfortable working those numbers

ToD by itself, assuming no other strikes (easy enough to manage) = [500 + (0.8)*500]*4/60 = 60 DPS

And that's ignoring triple/quad hits, crits, and using dark finisher curse.

The other ki strikes probably don't add more than 5-10 DPS, so obviously ToD is the way to go, and fire stance is pretty useless for DPS.

[elg582]

When I was first starting out I had the idea that a 2 monk 18 fighter unarmed kensai would be suhweet. Reason being if you had 1 level of monk your fists would only be 1d6(Korthos Isle strength =/). So if you want to go unarmed multiclass I would suggest more levels in monk, or consider going pure, monks get a bunch of perks as they level. I will post unarmed damage chart below.

1d6 - Monk level 1
1d8 - Monk level 4
1d10 - Monk level 8
2d6 - Monk level 12
2d8 - Monk level 16
2d10 - Monk level 20

Source:http://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed_Strike

To be fair, kensei 1 makes up the damage difference fairly well; kensei 2 gives power surge which is better for its duration; kensei 3 is a waste on unarmed.

12/8 is the split, either way.

[lopter]

ToD by itself, assuming no other strikes (easy enough to manage) = [500 + (0.8)*500]*4/60 = 60 DPS

And that's ignoring triple/quad hits, crits, and using dark finisher curse.

The other ki strikes probably don't add more than 5-10 DPS, so obviously ToD is the way to go, and fire stance is pretty useless for DPS.

I agree but you'd still be looking at another 100 to 200 ki to spend in fire stance

Using earth 2 earth 3 would up your dps considerably also great point on offhand proc I need to rework dps

As far as tod
Not sure how much we are ignoring save amts on bosses assuming a 12mnk build

Reason I went fire over wind was strictly as a top end ki generati6on scenario not for best dps outside of that

Dam per ki is next to figure out

[lopter]

Damage per ki averages

(dice average = 20 \ (3/6/10/20 * 19) (do strikes crit?)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)
all decimal places truncated

Elemental

(dice average = 20 \ (3.5/7/11/21 * 19) (do strikes crit?)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

1.197 dpk = I : Your attack will deal 5.985 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)
2.394 dpk = II : Your attack will deal 11.97 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)
3.762 dpk = III : Your attack will deal 18.81 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)
7.182 dpk = IV : Your attack will deal 35.91 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 5)

Earth
I/II (dice average = 20 \ (4/8 * 19)
III (dice average = 20 \ ((12 * 19)+ (7*2)
IV (dice average = 20 \ ((16 * 19) +(11 *2)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

1.368 dpk = I : Your attack deals 6.84 additional damage. (Ki cost: 5)
2.736 dpk = II : Your attack deals 13.68 additional damage. (Ki cost: 5)
4.356 dpk = III : Your attack deals 21.78 additional damage (Ki cost: 5)
5.868 dpk = IV : Your attack deals 29.34 additional damage (Ki cost: 5)

Void

(dice average = 20 \ (2.5/5/10/20 * 19) (do strikes crit?)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

0.5 dpk = I : Your attack deals 2.5 additional Force damage. (Ki cost: 5)
1 dpk = II : Your attack deals 5 additional Force damage. (Ki cost: 5)
2 dpk = III : Your attack deals 10 additional Force damage.(Ki cost: 5)
4 dpk = IV : Your attack deals 20 additional Force damage. (Ki cost: 5)

Special
Fists of Darkness
(dice average = 20 \ ((11 * 19)+50)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

2.331 dpk = Your attack deals 23.31 additional damage. (Ki cost: 10)

Touch of Death

(dice average = 20 \ (500 * 19)
Damage = dice average *1.8 (main hand +offhand proc)

17.1 dpk = Your attack deals 855 additional damage. (Ki cost: 50)


So an ideal cycle would be

ToD > ((Elemental IV > Void IV >Earth IV > Earth III > Elemental III) Cycle 5 times then ToD again )

[elg582]

1. Yes, we are ignoring saves against ToD, as well as criticals and triple/quad hits.

2. With Oremi's necklace, I find myself with plenty of ki even in earth stance.

3. It's not just available ki; you have cooldowns and you can't just fire them off as fast as you can hit the keys, it goes on the next strike. I find that I can usually get about 12 strikes in between ToD's.

[lopter]

1. Yes, we are ignoring saves against ToD, as well as criticals and triple/quad hits.

2. With Oremi's necklace, I find myself with plenty of ki even in earth stance.

3. It's not just available ki; you have cooldowns and you can't just fire them off as fast as you can hit the keys, it goes on the next strike. I find that I can usually get about 12 strikes in between ToD's.

yes 12 strikes is about right

i need to redo the math (sigh) my comp refreshed as i just finished writing out a hrs worth of work lol but it looks like 60+ dps added for strikes as a 12 mnk

[lopter]

12 mnk 8 ftr

cycle

Tod (earth 3 > Fists of darkness > elemental 3 )

3.111 dpk = Your attack deals 21.78 additional damage (Ki cost: 7)
2.687 dpk = Your attack will deal 18.81 additional Elemental damage. (Ki cost: 7)
2.331 dpk = Your attack deals 23.31 additional damage. (Ki cost: 10)

3.2 ki per attack (extra 3 on crit) fire stance + oremis + base 1

141.5 atks per min (Vanshilar's Attack Speed Index)

452.8 potential ki

----------------------------
ToD

Your attack deals 855 additional damage. (Ki cost: 50)
(855 * 4) / 60 = 57 dps increase

200 ki cost
----------------------------

Rotation

21.78 dam earth ki 7
18.81 dam Elec ki 7
23.31 dam FoD ki 10


3 second rotation (including 1.2 sec downtime) 24 ki

total Ki 452.8
ToD Ki 200
_____________
Strike Ki 252.8


30 seconds out of 60 you can use strikes
avg dam per 3 seconds 63.9
avg dps (10 * 63.9) + 0 /60 = 10.65 dps increase


ToD increase 57
Ki Increase 10.65
________________
Total DPS 67.65

this is still incredibly low. you could curse electric in your Auto Attack time adding 10% (no ki cost) you have plenty of building time for ki in this strike sequence (36 seconds out of every min) this doesnt include any double strike chance which would up the dps more.

[elg582]

That looks about right.

[lopter]

its good for a rough baseline i put multiple stop gap ki building points to err on the side of safety

i think its a realistic amount you could see in strikes not a perfect robot strike method

no combos were used as none actually increased dps to be worth even looking at.

so the new question is

whats the mnks base dps in the calc 12 mnk /8 ftr

then add 67.65 + (67.65 x doublestrike%) to it. for a baseline mnk dps

aaand this is where i take a break :P

[Soleran]

Lopter the ki strikes cost 5 ki now regardless of the lvl of the strike for the elemental strikes.

[lopter]

Lopter the ki strikes cost 5 ki now regardless of the lvl of the strike for the elemental strikes.


&@#*^ !



i adjusted the base costs so it reflects but im all numbered out for a sequence and now things get hazier (due to elemental resists)

likely (earth 3 > elemental 3 cold > earth 2 > Elemental 3 elec ) for 20 ki

[Balkas]

The Earth strikes are multiplied by critical hits.

I did some Monk strike damage math here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3938106&postcount=16) (which doesn't take into account TWF %) if it helps at all.

(Don't forget that 1 is a Critical Miss) :)

[Cold_Stele]

Who cares? eSOS is awful against >50% Fortification, and every raid boss tested on its highest difficulty in U11 (whether that is Elite or Epic) has 70%+ Fort.

eSOS is relegated, for now, to anti-trash DPS and to runs on the lower difficulties.

If this is accurate then where does that leave THF?

My understanding is that THF is far inferior to TWF unless eSoS is equipped.

[Solmage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigcXvcy1A

"Don't go ninj'n nobody don't need ninj'n" - epic win on that video.. so that's what splashing is like in RL.. huh. :p

[eulogy098]

Why do so many people assume you can maintain Haste Boost forever? Even if you had infinite charges (and you dont) its a 20 second boost with 30 seconds of cooldown, so even in a perfect world of infinite charges you can only be boosted at best 2/3 of the time.

More realistically speaking you'll have at best maybe 12 charges, which is only 4 minutes of actual boosted time. Between that and the longer cooldown then duration I think people need to rethink their dps calculations.

If nothing else you should be taking off 33% of your calculated DPS benefit for haste boost, rite off the top.


Haste boost can NOT be 100% maintained due to both limited charges and 30 second cooldown to 20 second duration. Comparing it as though it were a passive 30% dps increase is highly, highly flawed.

[elg582]

Why do so many people assume you can maintain Haste Boost forever? Even if you had infinite charges (and you dont) its a 20 second boost with 30 seconds of cooldown, so even in a perfect world of infinite charges you can only be boosted at best 2/3 of the time.

More realistically speaking you'll have at best maybe 12 charges, which is only 4 minutes of actual boosted time. Between that and the longer cooldown then duration I think people need to rethink their dps calculations.

If nothing else you should be taking off 33% of your calculated DPS benefit for haste boost, rite off the top.


Haste boost can NOT be 100% maintained due to both limited charges and 30 second cooldown to 20 second duration. Comparing it as though it were a passive 30% dps increase is highly, highly flawed.

Well, that's one of the things about the spreadsheet, it assumes 5 minutes of fighting, and while that is clearly to the benefit of rogues and fighters, how many quests have more than 5 minutes of serious fighting between shrines?

No, it's a reasonable assumption, and it takes into account the cooldown period, so the calculation is roughly correct for what it is.

Of course, some of the new quests are supposed to be rather long...

[Alex301]

Why do so many people assume you can maintain Haste Boost forever? Even if you had infinite charges (and you dont) its a 20 second boost with 30 seconds of cooldown, so even in a perfect world of infinite charges you can only be boosted at best 2/3 of the time.

More realistically speaking you'll have at best maybe 12 charges, which is only 4 minutes of actual boosted time. Between that and the longer cooldown then duration I think people need to rethink their dps calculations.

If nothing else you should be taking off 33% of your calculated DPS benefit for haste boost, rite off the top.


Haste boost can NOT be 100% maintained due to both limited charges and 30 second cooldown to 20 second duration. Comparing it as though it were a passive 30% dps increase is highly, highly flawed.

It's a good thing that we don't do that then :D We actually do take into account the cooldown along with activation time and the number of action boosts in a given time frame. I find 10 action boosts will last be through most quests although i'm not sure how they will hold up in the new content coming.

[Dark-Star]

I believe that unarmed assassins are currently *not* getting Vorpals with their fists unfortunately. Whether this is WAI or not has not yet been confirmed.

SA damage *is* boosted by 50% against stunned enemies, but Turbine said that it's not supposed to.

Vorpal works, assasinate does not.

I have a 19/1 HO assasin str build and it cranks out a truckload of damage in game play.

[gavijal]

Ok..so bottom line is..the best twf build after U11 is..? Need to TR so asking :)

[elg582]

Ok..so bottom line is..the best twf build after U11 is..? Need to TR so asking :)

One of about a dozen roughly equal buildouts of either pure or multiclassed paladin, fighter, barbarian, and monk with maybe some ranger or rogue thrown in for good measure.

The question is, what other abilities/utility/whatever do you want on your character?

[gavijal]

One of about a dozen roughly equal buildouts of either pure or multiclassed paladin, fighter, barbarian, and monk with maybe some ranger or rogue thrown in for good measure.

The question is, what other abilities/utility/whatever do you want on your character?
Best 2wf dps i can get, some self sufficiency would be nice 2 but is not must. I thought to tr in Blitz build but i see is not so good anymore .

[LightBear]

So basically what you folks are saying is that by U11 all quests can now be done in 5*20 secs?

[Alex301]

So basically what you folks are saying is that by U11 all quests can now be done in 5*20 secs?

Huh? I don't think we're saying that. Are you referring to action boosts that you only get 5 of to start with?

[elg582]

Best 2wf dps i can get, some self sufficiency would be nice 2 but is not must. I thought to tr in Blitz build but i see is not so good anymore .

Blizt is fine, although warforged are looking good now with all the artificers running around, and monk/paladin builds might have more self-sufficiency for you.



So basically what you folks are saying is that by U11 all quests can now be done in 5*20 secs?

No, only that the parts of the quest where you really need the extra DPS can.

[Emili]

Depends on the content and assuming we are talking melee dps. There will be two distinct 'categories' of dpsers in my mind judging from llama.

1. Easy stuff. Helf dual bursters will rule the roost in easy stuff. If tod elite and the 2 new epic raids go live as they stand now then those same helf bursters will be weak.
2. Hard Stuff. Its about sustained dps right at the very hardest level from what i can guage. Im sure after all the people who cry because they cant run elite anymore when they should be sticking too normal winge on the forums the devs will tone it down a little. I hope they dont - at this point on llama there is a very nice jump from lower difficulties.

My picks will be in no particular order

1. 18 barb/2 ftr (essentially double boosts is nice for very long fights)
2. 20 barb for (even greater sustained dmg potential than the 18/2 altho less for the duration of HB1)
3. Monks pure or 12monk/8 ftr
4. cerain ranger mixes. (6 splash with eo and constructs is about ideal as that second FE is now very obvious)

Rangers and rogs dont cry ur evasion will help some.

I've not run ToD elite nor any older epic raids - chrono, von6, edq - since the update went in.

However, I have run lob and mta on epic as you know... from what I've seen of these agree with your assessment - at least in these quests. Duration of the end fights weild little pay-off of short term bursting... 12 to 14 surges do not seem quite enough and haste/damage boosts run out completely, they're a dry well in canith. By far the titan wave of eTmA seems misserable on a boosting build. Duration and maintaining at least 15+ minute scope of dps durations is what I'd suggest, at least until the groundwork and scheme of dealing with these end fights more ironed out.

I think Shade run a eDQ claiming it's fine - with a sub three minute beat down... but he touted Sally is a little high I suppose in ToD.

[Kmnh]

No love for the 20 rogue assassin with 17d6+30 sneak attacks, 3% double-strike and bypassing 10% fort?

We can haste+damage boost too :P

[maddmatt70]

Actually the king of the twf dpsers this mod are high hit point rangers and high hit point monks now. Shoot for a 650+ hit point monk or ranger. These new raids on the higher difficulties have no shrines and take an hourish to complete. Barbs run out of rages, fighters power surges, and pally's divine mights etc... so factor in your dps metric as such..

[gavijal]

So Blitz not so good, how is Monster now for 32 point build (maybe to make new char to try it) or go pure?

[aristarchus1000]

It seems that it may be worth doing calculations based on a longer time assumption.

[goodspeed]

Threat enhancements and indimidate for all the abilities monks get is a trade i'd make any day.

I've played with some exceptionally well geared monks and while they've always performed very well the equally well geared barbarians/fighters were still able to pull aggro and lead the kill count without much trouble. The only time i've seen monks lead in kills is when enemies have so little health the monk can kill them before the rest of the group can catch up :P

see I dont see kill count as being great. Swinging something and nabbing a bunch of things for 20 hp to down em after a mage just nuked 90% of the hp, isn't being badass. It just means you ran in and ko'd a bunch of 1% hp mobs.

Now if kills went by how much dmg was done to them for the point, then id say they have merit.

[eulogy098]

Who wins? Neither.


Pure Fighter will win for short bursts of dps.

Pure Barb will win in the long term dps.

12fighter2rogue6barbarian will still win in the in-between the first two role of dps.

Pure Halfling Khopesh Rogue will win in the 0% fort, stable aggro, already have a dedicated tank dps role.



"monster" builds of 12fighter2ranger2mo are way behind the prior said as far as dps goes, 6 ranger just doesnt offer very much at all. But it is very good for solo mid-game play, as you can have both AC and moderately high dps on the same toon. Obviously this becomes irrelevant come epic content and house C raids.



What else is there to say? three-way-split build just aren't uber efficient in a raid situation. Pures, in a raid, are better pretty much 100% of the time. I don't see any way to really debate this fact, as much as I wish it wern't so. multiclassing is fun, but not as powerful as pure when you have a full team of players watching each others back and weaknesses.

[Alex301]

see I dont see kill count as being great. Swinging something and nabbing a bunch of things for 20 hp to down em after a mage just nuked 90% of the hp, isn't being badass. It just means you ran in and ko'd a bunch of 1% hp mobs.

Now if kills went by how much dmg was done to them for the point, then id say they have merit.

It's not a perfect measure but it can be a good indicator; the person with the highest dps is the most likely to land the killing blow.

[Consumer]

These new raids on the higher difficulties

So the raids that melee don't really need loot from as it's often not as good as old loot or crafted loot are what we base DPS on this update?

The loot is barely better than greensteel.



BRB Fighters are best DPS now because they can boost all the way through reavers fate to get a cloudburst.

[maddmatt70]

So the raids that melee don't really need loot from as it's often not as good as old loot or crafted loot are what we base DPS on this update?

The loot is barely better than greensteel.



BRB Fighters are best DPS now because they can boost all the way through reavers fate to get a cloudburst.

You do the math the new raid's loot is better. So characters that do not do the quests on epic to get the 3rd tier goodies will not be as good as characters that do.. Go ahead and throw that in your dps calc..

[paraplegic]

read few pages.. i still dont see the u11 winner dper :(

[Cold_Stele]

read few pages.. i still dont see the u11 winner dper :(

Short stuff - HElf Blitz, Monster, pure Ftr

Long stuff - HOrc Barb

[gavijal]

Short stuff - HElf Blitz, Monster, pure Ftr

Long stuff - HOrc Barb

I question for my friend, for 32 point Blitz or fighter? He made 32 point blitz and now he thinking maybe to use +5 hearth of the wood either to change it to Barb past life and roll a blitz again, or to change it to fighter or leave it be? Yea and he is Horc

[Anthios888]

Depends on the content and assuming we are talking melee dps. There will be two distinct 'categories' of dpsers in my mind judging from llama.

1. Easy stuff. Helf dual bursters will rule the roost in easy stuff. If tod elite and the 2 new epic raids go live as they stand now then those same helf bursters will be weak.
2. Hard Stuff. Its about sustained dps right at the very hardest level from what i can guage. Im sure after all the people who cry because they cant run elite anymore when they should be sticking too normal winge on the forums the devs will tone it down a little. I hope they dont - at this point on llama there is a very nice jump from lower difficulties.

My picks will be in no particular order

1. 18 barb/2 ftr (essentially double boosts is nice for very long fights)
2. 20 barb for (even greater sustained dmg potential than the 18/2 altho less for the duration of HB1)
3. Monks pure or 12monk/8 ftr
4. cerain ranger mixes. (6 splash with eo and constructs is about ideal as that second FE is now very obvious)


Dual helf bursters will make easy content easier but when the going gets tough(namely those 3 raids on highest difficulties) I will take one of the 4 above. Horc. Not warforged. Honestly on a lightly specced for healing fvs I have no problem keeping a raid group of fleshies up but WF and especially wf with no amp are just a pain. Very inefficient. . Curses are non issue jsut need to have half a brain and chug a pot when you get hit.


Regarding FVS DPS.

In the new raids and tod elite you will not have the sp to maintain DP on the live servers. Mana pot consumption will be rough especially in MA even without dping. The AC is somewhat high on the epic raids - if you are 2wf(or non esos 2 handers) you better get some nice too hit gear else ur mediocre damage will be next to nonexistant.

N

Edit: Oh and glass cannon tanks should jsut gtfo of raid groups now. They will be useless next mod with the death penalty count. Build for saves(reflex), hp and sustained dps if you want to compete at the highest levels. I couldnt care less about what calcualtions say. If you arnt fat you arnt fighting at the highest levels next mod. Rangers and rogs dont cry ur evasion will help some.

Agree with every word.

edit: except the ur

[gavijal]

4. cerain ranger mixes. (6 splash with eo and constructs is about ideal as that second FE is now very obvious)

Is that means Monster build? Does it works for Horcs?

[Erekose]

OK we've all seen that the best TWF DPS in mod 11 is going to be HElf.

Which is going to be best - the more common Ftr12/Rgr6/Monk2 or lesss traditional Ftr12/Pally6/Monk2?

Ftr12/Ranger6/Monk2 pros/cons -

+1 attack/damage from starting 18
+1 attack and +3 damage from Ram’s Might
+10% off hand proc (approx +5% DPS)
+2 attack +6 damage 2 Favored Enemies
Can get another +3 attack/damage from Divine Favor from active Pally PL
1 less feat (gets TWF and ITWF free but has to buy Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
Diehard
Manyshot, Rapidshot

And the best bit -

Ranger Sprint Boost :)


Ftr12/Pally6/Monk2 pros/cons - (Cha taken as being 24 - 14base +2tome +7item +1enh)

-1 attack/damage from 16 starting Str (6 build points into Cha)
+2 attack/damage from Divine Favor (only gains another +1 from active Pally PL feat)
1 extra feat
+10% Healing Amp or +1d6 Evil Outsider damage
+12HP
+7 Will/Fort save, +4 Reflex
Divine Might/Righteousness - 9-10 x 1 minute clickies of +2 damage or +100% hate
1-2 x LOH for 192HP
Immunity to Fear/Disease :rolleyes:
2 -4 x Exalted Smites (recharges) +24 to hit, +25 damage, +1 crit damage multiplier

And the best bit -

Constant spamming of Divine Sacrifice (3 second cooldown) +5d6 light damage (boosted by AoV), +1 crit damage multiplier (DOES THIS STILL PROC OFFHAND?)


Who wins? You decide.

Please re-calculate these two options whilst fighting in a beholder anti-magic eye and the favored enemy is not an aberration please.

[Hurak]

I'm putting up my 12 Dark Monk/6Ranger/2Fighter Helf Rogue dil with TR with monk past life as one to watch. 2d10 wraps, full arcane archer and 40dc stunning fist makes this toon a beast and a lot of fun to play.

[Consumer]

You do the math the new raid's loot is better. So characters that do not do the quests on epic to get the 3rd tier goodies will not be as good as characters that do.. Go ahead and throw that in your dps calc..

ok

not gonna put the whole thing on here, just the main points.

Roughly done (nothing checked, may be mistakes):


Barb

auto attack
ship buffs
10 seeker
ravager + kyosho
litany
madstone
no SA
marilith chain (seeker + shatter +10)

Esos

17.5 Base
10 modifier
45 strength (70 strength)
22 PA
1 Litany
4 Claw set
2 Shintao set
2 hobgoblin Ship buff
4 HO melee
1 force ritual

61.17 glancing blow with above

296.53 average damage per hit


Alchemical weapon (GA fire/air/air)

10.5 base
6 modifier
45 strength (70 strength)
22 PA
1 Litany
4 Claw set
2 Shintao set
2 hobgoblin Ship buff
4 HO melee
1 force ritual

3.5 fire damage
19d6 on 20
12 damage per hit lightning strike


60.33 glancing blows

254.34 average damage per hit

+6%

269.004 average damage


So for THF the Esos is better even when situations perfectly favor the elemental and dc based damage of the alchemical weapon. Electrifying blast DC is only 34 so you'll lose half of that on many 20ies, most bosses also have resistances forcing you to make lower DPS elemental combinations. Your to hit is lower with the alchemical which is a further problem if you lose ship buffs. If damage boost was included the Esos would gain more from it due to higher base damage of 11 average and the inclusion of bard buffs.


Capped Barb rage duration

46 con (guestimated) = +18 mod

8 rages
extend rage II

(18 + (18*6)) * 1.5 = 189 seconds * 8 = 25 minutes and 12 seconds

+ barb past life

= 27 minutes and 18 seconds




TWF to come

[Cold_Stele]

Please re-calculate these two options whilst fighting in a beholder anti-magic eye and the favored enemy is not an aberration please.

For that epic beholder raid that we have?

Or do you mean for the run through Subterrain for HoX?

Actually /sarcasm off for a second - HElves Angel Ranger option is clearly strongest melee (THF/TWF/whatever) for epic Beholders in evon2-3.

[Nick_RC]

For that epic beholder raid that we have?

Or do you mean for the run through Subterrain for HoX?

Actually /sarcasm off for a second - HElves Angel Ranger option is clearly strongest melee for epic Beholders in evon2-3.

He's talking about the purple Titan in master artificer.

[gavijal]

Ok, so for Horc 32 point 2wf best is? Pure fighter?

[Alex301]

Ok, so for Horc 32 point 2wf best is? Pure fighter?

It depends. No one build can claim to be top dps is all situations. As fortification increases pure fighters lose out more than the blitz or monster would but against 0% fort targets, i.e. trash, they are tough to beat. If you're fighting your favored enemy then the monster build will still pull ahead but you can only have 2 favored enemies.

The barbarian past life no longer affects your normal rage's duration, so there is no point using that heart of wood to gain the barb past life and TRing back into a blitz.

If your friend isn't happy with the rage duration then i'd LR into pure fighter. TRing into a helf fighter would be better though. The monster build is worth considering but that comes with it's own strength and weaknesses.

[Stillwaters]

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?


I've played this one on a few worlds now, its a great lil build, dble boost, and dble bluff, and dbl stun!!! YMMV depending on gear
EDIT: lols ignore the diplo and raise bluff (threat reducer, turns mobs, pulls mobs, and works solo and party to get SA) this was my old .txt



KickPuncher - dark lotus variant assassin - variant by STILLWATERS
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Male
(1 Monk \ 19 Rogue)
Hit Points: 244
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 18
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 22
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 14 16
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 30
Bluff -1 8
Concentration 6 9
Diplomacy -1 25
Disable Device n/a 28
Haggle -1 2
Heal 2 5
Hide 6 38
Intimidate -1 2
Jump 5 23
Listen 2 5
Move Silently 6 38
Open Lock n/a 30
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 5
Search 2 28
Spot 6 28
Swim 2 8
Tumble 3 8
Use Magic Device n/a 25

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Fighter
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+5)
Skill: Search (+5)
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Enhancement: Half-Elf Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Fighter Strength I


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I


Complete Enhancement List @ 20:
Rogue Damage Boost II
Extra Action Boost II
Rogue Haste Boost IV
Rogue Skill Boost I *
Elven Dexterity II
Fighter: Strategy Stunning Blow II
Human Improved Recovery I *
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Racial Toughness II
Rogue Assassin III
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Improved Hide II
Improved Move Silently II
Rogue Dexterity I
Half-Elf Fighter Strength I

[karl_k0ch]

Ive often considered a 19rogue assassin/1monk (or poss 18Ro,As/2monk) using wraps, does anyone know of a tried and true build they could link?


Another option is Halfling, Str-based, taking PL: Rogue and Quickdraw on top of 3*Twf, PA, toughness and IC. That's the build of a guildie (http://my.ddo.com/character/orien/xkcd/) of mine.

[grodon9999]

Is that means Monster build? Does it works for Horcs?

Yes it does, but the monster is really only ideal against two types of foes. of course if you pick Evil Outsider and Construct you've pretty much got everything that's hard to kill in the current end-game covered.

[grodon9999]

Another option is Halfling, Str-based, taking PL: Rogue and Quickdraw on top of 3*Twf, PA, toughness and IC. That's the build of a guildie (http://my.ddo.com/character/orien/xkcd/) of mine.

With all the Fortification nonsense we have now, why roll rogue anything?

[karl_k0ch]

With all the Fortification nonsense we have now, why roll rogue anything?

Scroll Healing!

[grodon9999]

Scroll Healing!

Splash.

[karl_k0ch]

Splash.

But you want the enhancement line for better scroll healing.

I was merely joking. Being able to heal should not be the main reason to roll a rogue.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

With all the Fortification nonsense we have now, why roll rogue anything?

With the fort change and the new handwraps why roll anything but unarmed?


Save the rogues! (and all crit based melee)

[LeLoric]

With all the Fortification nonsense we have now, why roll rogue anything?

Reports of rogues demise are greatly exaggerated. At least rogues with some splash like 13/6/1 type builds. Even full rogues are fine in groups with high amounts of fort bypass available.

In many groups the fort should be reduceable to ~50% if people are using the tools available to them.

Classes that can reduce fort should be in high demand as they increase party dps significantly. A splashed rogue can rock out ~50 str imp sunders, wrack construct, as well as their own 10% bypass.

[azmodeus1]

Ok, so for Horc 32 point 2wf best is? Pure fighter?

go helf with rog dilli, 2wf, pure ftr...its amazing [pm if you want the build]. mine just capped a week ago, with rog pl active, its a beast...i have to wait alot before using boosts even with -20% threat, and no epic gear, just marlith, dual litII kopeshes, and the exceptional seeker 2 gloves. i use adamantine wpn scrolls for the new content, with minimal umd.

[gavijal]

Yea but friend already have 32 point Blitz Horc lvl 19 and he thinking to maybe LR to get more dps.

[grodon9999]

Reports of rogues demise are greatly exaggerated. At least rogues with some splash like 13/6/1 type builds. Even full rogues are fine in groups with high amounts of fort bypass available.

In many groups the fort should be reduceable to ~50% if people are using the tools available to them.

Classes that can reduce fort should be in high demand as they increase party dps significantly. A splashed rogue can rock out ~50 str imp sunders, wrack construct, as well as their own 10% bypass.

So you're gonna bring three guys with you just so a rogue can do some damage?

How deeply splashed you talking?

[maddmatt70]

So you're gonna bring three guys with you just so a rogue can do some damage?

How deeply splashed you talking?

Well fighters or barbs should look into improved sunder and not just for rogues, but to reduce fortification for all melee. Rogues should look at wrack construct themselves and hamstring for that matter.

[grodon9999]

Well fighters or barbs should look into improved sunder and not just for rogues, but to reduce fortification for all melee. Rogues should look at wrack construct themselves and hamstring for that matter.

You've never done a raid without either a fighter or a barb in it have you?

[maddmatt70]

You've never done a raid without either a fighter or a barb in it have you?

hmm yeah I have before, it just is on the rare side because people love playing fighters and barbarians. I have done raids with 5 paladins, a bunch of monks, several rangers, rogues, stuff like that.

[Alex301]

Yea but friend already have 32 point Blitz Horc lvl 19 and he thinking to maybe LR to get more dps.

If he doesn't want to go through the hassle of TRing then you can't go wrong with a pure fighter. Blitz still performs very well but it's just the duration of the rages that are the main problem. I had a first life blitz and honestly they were too short for my liking. I know some that have them and are fine with it though.

[gavijal]

Pure Fighter or 2 rog splash still ok?

[Rdonaccount]

highest dps? don't know, don't care.

best dps? half-elf monster, because all the free bow feats, espcially manyshot, has become very valuable with the u11 changes (more dps to lailat on the platforms) and in the new raids. and the human versatility boosts + dilly makes half-elf the obvious choice.

[Alex301]

What would average more damage: a monster build with rogue levels (so +3 SA damage and +10% off hand procs) or taking the AA pre for slayer arrows?

Would manyshot with pointblank shot be better than going melee for a monster build now too?

[LeLoric]

Well fighters or barbs should look into improved sunder and not just for rogues, but to reduce fortification for all melee. Rogues should look at wrack construct themselves and hamstring for that matter.

I would say monks here too. Both light and dark can use sunder not only to lower fort but also land their other fort reducing abilities and their stuns.

[LeLoric]

So you're gonna bring three guys with you just so a rogue can do some damage?

How deeply splashed you talking?

ummm pretty sure the post you quoted answers your question and a 13/6/1 can have imp sunder with it's bonus feats too along with wrack and opportunist for some full fort reducing goodness. Theres no reason to bring along 3 other characters.

[grodon9999]

hmm yeah I have before, it just is on the rare side because people love playing fighters and barbarians. I have done raids with 5 paladins, a bunch of monks, several rangers, rogues, stuff like that.

But you see my point. Ranger, paladins, pure rogues, etc . . . don't have the feat room and/or DC for this to be viable. You now need to bring yet one more "thing" to a raid. I don't like restricting my choices any more than they already are.

[Anthios888]

But you see my point. Ranger, paladins, pure rogues, etc . . . don't have the feat room and/or DC for this to be viable. You now need to bring yet one more "thing" to a raid. I don't like restricting my choices any more than they already are.

I think my pure bard has like a 40 DC sunder. If improved sunder existed 3 years ago, I might have thought to build for it in order to be a great support character.

Why so closed minded? Even using your example, all those 18/2 barbarians can drop their nerfed barbarian past life and likely make an even bigger DPS difference taking improved sunder or another useful tactical feat. After all, fortification makes epic sword of shadows that much less sexy.

[Emili]

Well fighters or barbs should look into improved sunder and not just for rogues, but to reduce fortification for all melee. Rogues should look at wrack construct themselves and hamstring for that matter.
That we do, I am a button pusher though, I like fighter classes for thier buttons. No matter how much you sunder a titan though it's still crit immune. As is I dropped some hp this mod feating is so tight.


I think my pure bard has like a 40 DC sunder. If improved sunder existed 3 years ago, I might have thought to build for it in order to be a great support character.



A DC of 44 seems to work well... but take it with a grain of salt as you need to maintain it for as long as an hour so you cannot be reliant on short rage type clickies or spells or surges in DC, best thing is to run off enhancements towards it and a good sundering weapon along from maxing unbuffed str.

[grodon9999]

I think my pure bard has like a 40 DC sunder. If improved sunder existed 3 years ago, I might have thought to build for it in order to be a great support character.

What feat you dropping for that? My horc Classic-rocker's would basically have to give up his ability to heal to take that giving up either maximize or quicken. I don't see a pally having that option either, a deeply splashed ranger could with maybe a decent DC




Why so closed minded? Even using your example, all those 18/2 barbarians can drop their nerfed barbarian past life and likely make an even bigger DPS difference taking improved sunder or another useful tactical feat. After all, fortification makes epic sword of shadows that much less sexy.

Just don't like the fortification changes (I can live with the up'd HPs) as it gives you less freedom as to what makes up a good group and it perpetuates the over-poweredness of casters as they aren't effected by it. Sure Turbine gave us (bugged and non-working) ways of bypassing some of this fortification but I don't always want to have to make sure there's a "Sundererer" available for people's rogues not to be pikers.

I don't like having fewer options, that pretty much it.

[Chai]

Why so closed minded? Even using your example, all those 18/2 barbarians can drop their nerfed barbarian past life and likely make an even bigger DPS difference taking improved sunder or another useful tactical feat. After all, fortification makes epic sword of shadows that much less sexy.

Why? When TRing into a water savant would be way more effective. Fortification? pffft. Whats that? :p Ice / electric DOTs both triple stacked. Problem solved.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2009/10/more_dots.jpg

[grodon9999]

Why? When TRing into a water savant would be way more effective. Fortification? pffft. Whats that? :p Ice / electric DOTs both triple stacked. Problem solved.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2009/10/more_dots.jpg

Classic answer.

[Nick_RC]

Just don't like the fortification changes (I can live with the up'd HPs) as it gives you less freedom as to what makes up a good group and it perpetuates the over-poweredness of casters as they aren't effected by it. Sure Turbine gave us (bugged and non-working) ways of bypassing some of this fortification but I don't always want to have to make sure there's a "Sundererer" available for people's rogues not to be pikers.

I don't like having fewer options, that pretty much it.

If you want more freedom with group selection run normal. Im all for epic groups needing to get a few different types of characters in a group to have an easier time of it. You used to mock epics being 'full ******' or some such...they change the dynamics and now you want more freedom in your groups...

Good melees will pick up improved sunder soon enough. It will be more common than you think. Similarly Favored souls with their crown arnt exactly rare in raid situations. The 'nerf' to the aura was actually a buff for the 1-2 fvs raid group. 20 seconds allows for alot higher chance at multiple tiers stacking up than the 10 second ever was.

The casters dotting comment is laughable. Let me know how that sort of sustained nuking works out for you in epic MA and LoB.

N

[maddmatt70]

Why? When TRing into a water savant would be way more effective. Fortification? pffft. Whats that? :p Ice / electric DOTs both triple stacked. Problem solved.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2009/10/more_dots.jpg

Yes, keep that up for 1+ hours without a shrine as a spellcaster. You can dot tank in places, but that is about the best you can hope for DOTS for damage is not happening.

[Nick_RC]

Yes, keep that up for 1+ hours without a shrine as a spellcaster. You can dot tank in places, but that is about the best you can hope for DOTS for damage is not happening.

Agree. Casters are burst dps, kiters, buffers, utility at the hardest levels in the new raids. I suggest some posters get more familiar with the nicely scaling difficulties before they start making assumptions.

N

[LeLoric]

If you want more freedom with group selection run normal. Im all for epic groups needing to get a few different types of characters in a group to have an easier time of it. You used to mock epics being 'full ******' or some such...they change the dynamics and now you want more freedom in your groups...

Good melees will pick up improved sunder soon enough. It will be more common than you think. Similarly Favored souls with their crown arnt exactly rare in raid situations. The 'nerf' to the aura was actually a buff for the 1-2 fvs raid group. 20 seconds allows for alot higher chance at multiple tiers stacking up than the 10 second ever was.

The casters dotting comment is laughable. Let me know how that sort of sustained nuking works out for you in epic MA and LoB.

N

I agree here completely. +1 nick.

[Anthios888]

The casters dotting comment is laughable. Let me know how that sort of sustained nuking works out for you in epic MA and LoB.

N

LOL so true - one of our inital epic lord of blades attempts had only 2 or 3 melees in it, and dang did we go through a lot of pots trying to take the Lord down with only dots. And the aggro was much more unpredictible.

But, you gotta admit, that picture was pretty sweet!

[Emili]

Why? When TRing into a water savant would be way more effective. Fortification? pffft. Whats that? :p Ice / electric DOTs both triple stacked. Problem solved.



I hope you brought a few hundred pots with you to have the mana to keep those dots up? Epic LoB arcane take to conserving mana, need it for kiting some and then maybe pillars and of course we're speaking bout this mana usage spread over an hour plus at times.

ps: I'm still trying to figure out why he dp's and chains me from across the platform when all am doing is shooting pillars?

[BeccaBop]

As long as you don't run out of arrows on going for a server first and let a bunch of @#$holes steal your thunder. LMAO.

Clarify, please, what you mean.

I'm not sure what to think of this statement.

[Coldest]

Clarify, please, what you mean.

I'm not sure what to think of this statement.

I was rubbing salt in an old wound, for comedy.

Lelo was about to comlete shroud for a G-Land first using ranged dps, when they ran out of arrows. Thus, allowing a bunch of blithering idiots and jaganovs, who somehow managed to play the game at a high level back then, the oppurtnuity to down the raid first.

When I saw Lelo's post it brought back the memory and made me laugh all over again.

[Anthios888]

I was rubbing salt in an old wound, for comedy.

Lelo was about to comlete shroud for a G-Land first using ranged dps, when they ran out of arrows. Thus, allowing a bunch of blithering idiots and jaganovs, who somehow managed to play the game at a high level back then, the oppurtnuity to down the raid first.

When I saw Lelo's post it brought back the memory and made me laugh all over again.

hah thanks for that one :)

[Dark-Star]

Would manyshot with pointblank shot be better than going melee for a monster build now too?

Was better pre-U11, and mo' better now, assuming you melee when Many Shot is off timer.

[Solmage]

Yes, keep that up for 1+ hours without a shrine as a spellcaster. You can dot tank in places, but that is about the best you can hope for DOTS for damage is not happening.

I learned the hard way how much 'fun' it is to maintain caster DPS throughout a long raid last night. MAYBE you can maintain ONE dot if you're a sorcerer, but even then you'll likely pot. I was on my wizard, and I originally tried 3.. sniff..my poor lil pots..