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View Full Version : A ponderous alternative to raid HP ramping...



knightgf
09-06-2011, 10:30 AM
First off, I must admit that Turbine's currently idea to massively buff raid monsters is just a fail concept. For one, it certainly won't make fights fun; in fact, it might prove the opposite, especially if you look back at epic content and realize that too big of a boost is going to not only make sense for at-level raids, but also drain the fun out of the content. Two, pushing buttons and changing values for the players all the time isn't a good thing; in fact, this argument would go great for guild inactivity, but thats a story I will save for later.

Anyways, I feel there IS a possible alternative to just inflating certain raid monster's HP and doing it flatout crazy. Raid scaling. Now you might ask, "What is this raid scaling, and why would it be better?" Well, raid scaling is similar, but not exact to, quest scaling. For starters, it DOES NOT lower the difficulty of raids; it's the opposite in fact, it adds difficulty to raids, but only based on what class joins, and how many. With raid scaling, the base difficulty(I.E.: The difficulty that is on the live servers now) is unchanged, but it obviously will be harder based on what class joins(Offensive caster types will probably add more scaling than melee.) For multi-class types, the majority of classes will determine what % to increase scaling(Unless Turbine decides to add certain multiclass builds into the scaling list, with other less-known multiclasses as "You guess" for the scaling system.)

The raid scaling system effects things on a broad level, such as HP, saves, AC, spells used, monster attacks used, exc. For example, if you have a raid filled with a large amount of melee party members, AC will probably increase a bit, as will HP. Saves however, remain the same, and the spells used will lean a bit towards immobilizing melees, or at least trying to put them at a disadvantage. A raid filled with casters will have ramped up HP, less AC, spells that lean more at preventing spellcasting or damage spells, and increased saves. Regardless of which example you use, raid scaling will do its best to attempt to scale the challenge based on what classes join and how many joins.

Yes, the raid scaling system does have advantages, but I might also wish to point out that it can still have disadvantages, in this list here:

Advantages:


Still allows raids to be difficult, but in a way thats flexible based on who joins.
Does not make raid content easier.

Disadvantages:


People may fall for the stereotype that offensive casters make raids too difficult and will never allow them in.
While it may not impact them much, solo members may find it a bit more difficult to solo raids.
If done wrong by Turbine, raid scaling may be just as, if not more difficult than what is proposed. But I still have a tad bit of faith...

Discuss? (And yes I know this will never make it into this update, but perhaps the next update?)

dkyle
09-06-2011, 10:41 AM
No. It'll just lead to gaming the system. Raids should be designed to be challenging no matter what class makeup is brought in.

Some AI to target specific classes, to target their weaknesses is reasonable, though.

smatt
09-06-2011, 10:53 AM
I offered this kind of idea somewhat back in the Mod 4 Gianthold days. Before there was any scaling at all. I think though that the coding required to scale according to class and even build is 1. Too much 2. Not worth the time 3. Likely VERY bug intense....

Phidius
09-06-2011, 10:53 AM
They're having enough difficulties with coding handwraps... I'm guessing that implementing such a monumental amount of AI to handle such a scaling system would break raids for the rest of 2011 and all of 2012 at the very least.

Such a system might work with a live DM overseeing the action. Maybe if we had Skynet up and running.

grodon9999
09-06-2011, 11:05 AM
You want to make raids tougher? Don't give the bosses more HP or damage output, give them all Break Enchantment. Was in a ToD pug over the weekend where something was bugged and out deathwards weren't working (we all had it, I saw it cast and had it on myself). My goodness did that go pear-shaped fast.

Hmmm . . . I'm ubber devil guy . . . let me keep casting energy drain against a guy who is IMMUNE instead of removing his buffs.

Granted all this really would do is make the divine's job a lot harder, but that absolutely would work.

Meat-Head
09-06-2011, 11:13 AM
While this sounds interesting in theory, I have a feeling in practice it would be a nightmare.

1. Too much work to code
2. ppl finding the "best combinations" of members in a raid might get silly
3. Seems less fun
4. BUGS

redspecter23
09-06-2011, 11:19 AM
Players work hard to get their DC's up on their toons. I don't think anyone wants their relative DC's nerfed based simply on who enters the raid. I like to know that on quest X on elite the mob needs to roll a 17+ to save. I would not like it if they needed to roll a 5 - 17+ based entirely on who is in the group. It would make the hard work put into improving your character feel like a huge waste of time. As mentioned above it would also encourage the "perfect" group setup. Say one caster with 11 non casters. Your DC would be at it's "highest" and you can just wail away. You think it's been rough in the past to get a second caster into groups, just see how it goes if people know they will be getting a nerf for each extra one they bring.

pseudomasochist
09-06-2011, 11:29 AM
Scaling quests based on simple metrics such as class and level won't work. Since they've been the topic of much discussion lately, let's take favored soul as an example. A level 20 FvS could be a TR with multiple caster past lives that deforms raids on a regular basis. It could also be a max charisma healbot. The same goes for every other class and build. Setting raid difficulty in such a way would only make them impossible for parties with lesser gear and builds.

Deeper analysis of each party member would be tough to implement and extra load on the servers. Even if the developers can code such a feature, the last thing DDO needs is another source of lag. Imagine clicking the portal to enter a raid and having to wait several minutes as each character is analyzed.

Elaril
09-06-2011, 12:09 PM
The biggest argument against their raid boss buff is that it doesn't make old content new, it makes old content more annoying.

Cyr
09-06-2011, 12:12 PM
/not signed

Not because I like the idea of them just pumping up a few metrics on old raid bosses, but becaues I think this would be worse due to it's similarity to my most hated ingame mechanic dungeon scaling.

FrozenNova
09-06-2011, 01:03 PM
This already happens in quests. The quest scaling system varies slightly per class.
That said, this would be pointless - back to "maximum 1 arcane".

Letrii
09-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Make new content and stop screwing around with old content.

Seikojin
09-06-2011, 01:53 PM
As much as I would want to agree with this, I also see code nightmares. Maybe for new content.