Tomeless TWF?

[Zachski]

Every build I've seen marked "TWF" generally includes a +2 tome, rarely a +1 tome, but never no tomes.

Honestly, it's a little annoying XD I mean, it's not like I can't deviate from the build to put an extra point or two into dex, taking from another stat, but it's becoming a meme on this forum. "15 Dex +2 Tome".

Vaguely reminiscent of "No items, Fox only, Final Destination" (a Super Smash Bros Melee meme)

I'm not even talking about Paladins, either, where MAD makes them require a +2 dex tome to be able to maintain all of their competitive stats and still TWF, I'm talking about things like Barbarians (who then proceed to put the remaining points into Wisdom for will saves, or else boost their CON above 16/18 if Con Race) and Fighters.

I can understand +1 Tome since I've heard it's possible to find them by level 8, but +2 Tomes require either buying from the store or twinking your character with another higher level character.

Heck, I've heard of one Ranger saying to go 11 Dex +2 Tome to qualify for Dodge, which means not being able to take Tempest I until level 12. Because I don't think you can use a +2 tome until level 7, and you can't respec previous feats because Fred knows you didn't have 13 dex at that time.

As for the point of this post... well, I'm moreso pointing out a meme I've noticed. No one has to change anything because of it. I understand that for most people here, they have high level characters that can pass down +2 tomes and such, so it's not an issue for them.

This is just an observation. What you do with it is entirely up to you, and I'm not about to break down sobbing if anyone continues to makes 15 Dex +2 Tome characters.

[Phidius]

...

I can understand +1 Tome since I've heard it's possible to find them by level 8, but +2 Tomes require either buying from the store or twinking your character with another higher level character.

...

Actually, I posted a TWF drow melee cleric that uses a +1 dex tome at 17, but you could always use your level 16 level-up instead.

I just figured that by the time you are level 17 you have either found one or have acquired the necessary plat to just buy one.

It's in my sig as a F2P build: Self-sufficient.


...
Heck, I've heard of one Ranger saying to go 11 Dex +2 Tome to qualify for Dodge, which means not being able to take Tempest I until level 12. Because I don't think you can use a +2 tome until level 7, and you can't respec previous feats because Fred knows you didn't have 13 dex at that time.
...

Actually, you can eat a +2 tome and then respec previous feats. As it turns out, Fred is not as all-knowing as one might think.

You cannot, however, respec a previous feat that you didn't qualify for at the time (like taking a metamagic when you didn't have a blue bar at that level).

[t0r012]

Yep it is the way of these forums 15+2 for twf. Occasionally for a dex race you see. 16+1 but that is rare.
Only no tome twf builds you are likely to see are rangers and the finesse rogues/monks who are now way out of favor.

Other things you'll notice that isn't new player friendly is the gear dual kopeshes all over the place , an abundance of GS and epic gear requirements

[Zachski]

Actually, I posted a TWF drow melee cleric that uses a +1 dex tome at 17, but you could always use your level 16 level-up instead.

I just figured that by the time you are level 17 you have either found one or have acquired the necessary plat to just buy one.

It's in my sig as a F2P build: Self-sufficient.

So you don't spec ITWF in until level 17? '_'

Interesting.




Actually, you can eat a +2 tome and then respec previous feats. As it turns out, Fred is not as all-knowing as one might think.

You cannot, however, respec a previous feat that you didn't qualify for at the time (like taking a metamagic when you didn't have a blue bar at that level).

Then I stand corrected XD Still, this means farming enough for three feat respects for Dodge then Mobility then Spring Attack. (Because I forgot about Spring Attack)

[Paleus]

The reason we see +2 tomes in these lists is because build points at creation are limited. If you want to have a 17 dex instead of a 15 dex, then you're going to need to get those points from somewhere, which may mean dropping con or strength.

For most of the people posting builds, they already have +2 tomes just lying around, so then the question becomes is a +1 in the dex stat going to serve me as much as roughly +1 to hit and +1 damage or +20 hp or +1 skill points etc. Unless they are building for evasion saves or ranged attack, the answer to the question is likely going to be no. The question then becomes what is the bare minimum number of build points I can invest in dex to get all of the twf I want.

Now, there are builds out there that are designed for new players. I like the recognition that not all players can twink out new characters and its an added challenge to design a good build without tomes or esoteric gear. I especially enjoy builds that show the "with tomes" and "without tomes" breakdowns. But when it comes right down to it, the people posting most builds usually have join dates pre-2011, which means the new character they are designing can be twinked, so why build it any other way than optimally.

[Phidius]

So you don't spec ITWF in until level 17? '_'

Interesting.
...

Aye - it's a trade off from getting Blade Barrier and Heal by level 13.

Testing it against the Training Dummy, iTWF and gTWF add about 30% DPS over simple TWF (your results may vary), which isn't as much fun as Blade Barrier + Heal :D

[aristarchus1000]

If you don't have the tomes, the build will almost always be better off going THF, rather than sacrificing build and level ups into dex.

In fact, even on my twf characters i often don't use twf (even though i have the twf feats) until level 15 or so. The major exception for me is a TR character that already has greensteel khopeshes.

[Luckness]

Because most builds are oriented towards effectiveness at level cap.

If you were designating a build as "newbie friendly" or "TR quickly" then I think it would indeed be a design goal to have perhaps one +1 tome or no tomes at all required. I recall the player Star, famous for his 30+ TR's of one toon, aiming to have to use no more than a +1 dex tome on his TWF builds.

But if you plan to play a character for a couple months or more at level cap, then you save yourself gimpness (a whopping 5 build points raising 15 DEX to 17 DEX) or *even more resources* fixing it... as a lesser resurrection heart of wood (to change starting ability scores) is worth several times the amount of a +2 dex tome (which most players will earn a couple times over while leveling to 20 if they can just use the AH).

Those 2 DEX points really are just to qualify for the feats... most players aren't even shooting for a meaningful AC, don't need a boost to their DEX skills that badly, and will get sufficient reflex save otherwise.

Rangers are actually a good way to get around it, and while they may be underestimated, Tempest Ranger builds are remarkably effective at melee DPS, especially if multiclassed somewhere between level 12 to 18, with the main drawback versus fighter or barbarian being lower HP. (I've been thinking about a Ranger 12/Fighter 8 build that gets multiple Toughness for this reason...)

[Zachski]

Because most builds are oriented towards effectiveness at level cap.

If you were designating a build as "newbie friendly" or "TR quickly" then I think it would indeed be a design goal to have perhaps one +1 tome or no tomes at all required. I recall the player Star, famous for his 30+ TR's of one toon, aiming to have to use no more than a +1 dex tome on his TWF builds.

+1 tomes are fine, honestly.



But if you plan to play a character for a couple months or more at level cap, then you save yourself gimpness (a whopping 5 build points raising 15 DEX to 17 DEX) or *even more resources* fixing it... as a lesser resurrection heart of wood (to change starting ability scores) is worth several times the amount of a +2 dex tome (which most players will earn a couple times over while leveling to 20 if they can just use the AH).

I would like to point out that it's just 2 build points to raise from 15 to 16. Then a +1 tome or a level up point if you can't find or afford a tome will work.

I do understand not putting it to 17, actually.



Those 2 DEX points really are just to qualify for the feats... most players aren't even shooting for a meaningful AC, don't need a boost to their DEX skills that badly, and will get sufficient reflex save otherwise.

I'm quite aware that DEX is only useful for qualifying for TWF feats.



Rangers are actually a good way to get around it, and while they may be underestimated, Tempest Ranger builds are remarkably effective at melee DPS, especially if multiclassed somewhere between level 12 to 18, with the main drawback versus fighter or barbarian being lower HP. (I've been thinking about a Ranger 12/Fighter 8 build that gets multiple Toughness for this reason...)

Multi-classing isn't newbie friendly, especially when, at low levels, you feel the loss of the ranger levels more than you feel the gain from the fighter/barbarian/rogue levels.

Like... you have to get to level 7/8 before you qualify for Tempest I, whereas on a pure build you can get that shiny PrE at level 6. And this isn't like other MMOs where you breeze through levels, it can take hours, sometimes days to get to level 7/8 from level 6, especially if you aren't twinked out or lack quest packs.

[Zachski]

Another thing I've noticed is that people keep saying that if you want to go THF, you want to get the Carnifex.

It's a nice weapon, I'll grant you that. Really nice.

It's also only obtainable from buying a quest pack. Delera's Tomb. You can't even get it from the AH because it's bound to account.

So it's rather puzzling to see this weapon being listed as a "must have" in "newbie friendly builds".

[eonfreon]

Another thing I've noticed is that people keep saying that if you want to go THF, you want to get the Carnifex.

It's a nice weapon, I'll grant you that. Really nice.

It's also only obtainable from buying a quest pack. Delera's Tomb. You can't even get it from the AH because it's bound to account.

So it's rather puzzling to see this weapon being listed as a "must have" in "newbie friendly builds".

Well, it's listed because it's something to strive to get. Usually I see it explained that it's only available in an Adv. Pack. There is a certain assumption that players that get into the game will want to get some packs. Especially since TP can be earned without spending money. This allows new players to know what gear to look for and what Adv. Packs to look for.

[Phidius]

Another thing I've noticed is that people keep saying that if you want to go THF, you want to get the Carnifex.

It's a nice weapon, I'll grant you that. Really nice.

It's also only obtainable from buying a quest pack. Delera's Tomb. You can't even get it from the AH because it's bound to account.

So it's rather puzzling to see this weapon being listed as a "must have" in "newbie friendly builds".

"newbie friendly builds" isn't quite the same thing as "free-to-play friendly builds".

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if a newbie F2Player decides they like the game, I recommend that they buy a 1 month subscription before going Premium.

If they don't like the game, then they're probably not going to be cruising the forums looking for build ideas.


Edit: I make this recommendation so that they try out as many packs as they can in a month, to find out which ones they might want to purchase later (seeing as how you can't buy your own guest pass).

[SableShadow]

Another thing I've noticed is that people keep saying that if you want to go THF, you want to get the Carnifex.

It's a nice weapon, I'll grant you that. Really nice.

It's also only obtainable from buying a quest pack. Delera's Tomb. You can't even get it from the AH because it's bound to account.

So it's rather puzzling to see this weapon being listed as a "must have" in "newbie friendly builds".

You generally point newbies in the direction of greensteel also ...

[voodoogroves]

RE: Tomes

The forum builders pay close attention to build points spent, etc. We're probably hyper focused on not "wasting" points, but really I think at the end of the day if you started with a 17 DEX and a 16 instead of 18 STR, you're not going to fail some magical test to let you complete. You won't be as optimized as someone else, but this is a game where you can still finish (at least on normal) with moderately built and geared toons.

RE: Carnifex

Some of this is an artifact of the general advice that this is a must-have pack, so even newbies are highly encouraged to get it.

Free-content wise analogs are Maelstrom, Nightblade, Sword of the Thirty, etc. (or were)

[Luckness]

I would like to point out that it's just 2 build points to raise from 15 to 16. Then a +1 tome or a level up point if you can't find or afford a tome will work.

Assuming an audience that has these particular build needs, this is perfectly reasonable.

To me saving the plat on a +2 tome is not a build need. I assume it isn't for the others posting such builds, or they wouldn't be doing it.

When a certain ability score is needed only to qualify for a feat, using starting scores or level up points to reach it, without including at least a +2 tome, can easily lead to long-term dissatisfaction with the toon... for people who want to get the most out of what they have. Listing tomes that are needed to qualify for a feat is important because it alerts people to the fact that they can start with a lower ability score and use the tome to qualify. Other tomes like the strength or constitution can be collected later on, to improve the character further.

Nothing is "must have," not the carnifex, not 15 starting DEX, not +2 tomes. People are pointing out strategies that are known to be effective. If they are not available to the reader, or not desired for some reason, let's hope they're smart enough to manage without.

[FrozenNova]

A tomeless twf is called a ranger.
Alternatively: a halfling with a levelup point in dex.
It's not like there arn't options available for a 28 pt twf.

[The_Brave2]

The reason most builds assume access to a +2 tome is that it is easier to say 15+2 than give all the alternatives using 1 or no tomes and re distributing the stats. It is easier to give you how that person would build it and allow you to make a few simple changes depending on your play style.

I don't see the problem here... change the build to how you would make it and don't stress the small stuff.

[eonfreon]

The reason most builds assume access to a +2 tome is that it is easier to say 15+2 than give all the alternatives using 1 or no tomes and re distributing the stats. It is easier to give you how that person would build it and allow you to make a few simple changes depending on your play style.

I don't see the problem here... change the build to how you would make it and don't stress the small stuff.

This. Plus Guides that proclaim to be "newbie friendly" do indeed list alternative ways to distribute stats. Look at Junts Paladin Guide or the Revisiting Paths Guide that was also done that improved on Turbine's atrociously built Paths.

You'll see many examples of ways to build TWF characters that are indeed newbie friendly.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Heck, I've heard of one Ranger saying to go 11 Dex +2 Tome to qualify for Dodge, which means not being able to take Tempest I until level 12. Because I don't think you can use a +2 tome until level 7, and you can't respec previous feats because Fred knows you didn't have 13 dex at that time.




That may have been true at one point, but now so long as you meet the stat requirements however you do that, you can swap out feats where you didn't meet them at the level you're swapping. BAB at that level Fred still won't waive, I suppose to stop you from piling on high-BAB feats.

As for the 15 dex thing, on a lot of TWF builds, pts are tight, and if you're not an AC or evasion build, dex is just there to qualify for GTWF, so why not put the feats elsewhere and save up for a tome with collectables/essences etc. But I feel your pain, you'd like to have options.

[Zachski]

Some of this is an artifact of the general advice that this is a must-have pack, so even newbies are highly encouraged to get it.

I generally see more people saying to get things like Gianthold and... whatever the other higher level must have pack was than to get Delera's.

It may have gotten to the point where people assume that it's common knowledge to get Delera's, and don't bother informing people who ask about packs to get of this.

Because to be honest, this is the first time I've seen Delera's listed as a "must have".

[kingarthas87]

just got 10rng/10what ever and you dont even hae to put a single point into dex for twf. tempest pre sucks so dont even bother just a waste of 3feat

[Zachski]

just got 10rng/10what ever and you dont even hae to put a single point into dex for twf. tempest pre sucks so dont even bother just a waste of 3feat

1. Even splits suck
2. The first and second tier of Tempest both rock. It's the sucky Tempest III and the lack of a melee capstone that make taking Ranger past level 12 not worth it.

[karl_k0ch]

Some thoughts on this topic.

Most builds are aimed to be somewhat optimal. This means: If you have access to +2 tomes, don't bother with 16 Dex. Anyway, most builds can easily modified to start with 16 Dex, requiring only a +1 tome. You might lose a skill, a con, or a str bracket, which will hamper the build a bit, but it won't break it when you shift 2 build points from here to there.

Drow and Halfling are decent races. On such a race, it's ususally not a problem at all to start with 16 Dex. Also, on the not-so-popular (because less damaging) finesse builds, you automatically qualify for TWF.*

Tomeless TWFs are called Rangers, which ties to the following post:


just got 10rng/10what ever and you dont even hae to put a single point into dex for twf. tempest pre sucks so dont even bother just a waste of 3feat
This is nonsense.

The ranger levels which grant the TWF feats are 2, 6 and 11. Builds with 11 or even 12 ranger levels have access to full TWF and require less Dex. I recommend taking the Tempest PrE for its additional Off-hand damage. 13 Dex is a moderate investment which is achievable without any tomes, usually. Using a +1 tome is convenience; using a +2 tome would delay the PrE too much, as pointed out above.

But also builds with only 6 Ranger level can make you go a long way, especially if combined with rogue. Since 6 Ran grants ITWF, the only feat which actually requires a Dex of 17 is GTWF, which is accessible (depending on the BAB progression) at level 12 or 15. By that level, a tome of the desired size (+1 or +2) should be affordable, even on a first toon.


*Sidenote: In my opinion, going Finesse is a last resort if you want to make a pure rogue, have no tomes, and only 28 build points. This is one of the few reasons where I can see that a Halfling Finesse build makes sense.