Why wing clipping is such a big deal. [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

BlargneyTheSecond

08-29-2011, 08:15 PM

After all the hullabaloo on the forums about the changes to leap of faith, I decided to get onto Lammania to see for myself. My reaction: when people here say that this nerf has gutted the favored soul class, they're not wrong or over-exaggerating. It really really has. I think I need to mention some of my history in order to explain why this statement is true for me.

A few years ago, I messed up my knee very badly, so I had to spend months not walking or even working (I teach dance). I decided I would have a look at the MMO scene to quell the boredom. I started by going back to WoW to find out if it was still as crappy as I remembered. It was. After that I sampled a large number of MMOs, and out of all of them, DDO stood out from the pack.

The defining feature that put DDO above all the other candidates? To get to a quest I didn't have to run through miles and miles of outdoor area being assaulted by aggressive mobs. Stuff I wanted to do was close together, and the ratio of time spent doing fun stuff vs time spent getting there was extremely favorable. This was the singular reason that I chose to invest my money in this game over all the other candidates.

I care about effectiveness and efficiency, so over time I became more concerned with playing better and getting more things done in the same amount of time. It's partly for my own benefit, but also for other players as well. As much as I value my own time, I try to be considerate of other players' time as well, which means constantly working on making myself faster and learning more shortcuts. I don't want to be the jerk wasting their time, when they could be doing something fun instead of waiting for me.

There's even a little mini-game built into DDO that is truly enjoyable: exploration. I *love* putting together characters that excel at finding new ways of getting around. It's very very satisfying to find a new shortcut because it saves me and my partymates time. Every player gets to choose how many resources they want to sink into the ability to get around, and it's a huge feature of the game.

On top of all that, DDO has gotten bigger over the years. More content is fun, but it also means longer travel times. The net result is that speed has become even more valuable.

So when I play my favored soul, it feels deeply satisfying. I'm free to explore, to be considerate of my fellow players, and to avoid wasting my own time. I've chosen to invest in my ability to get around because it's very important to me. I use leap of faith *all the time*. To get places, to get out of places, to avoid danger. I put that extra speed to good use by accomplishing objectives quickly so everyone benefits.

In contrast, when I stepped onto Lammania, it felt horrible. With the 5 charge limit, I had to choose between getting places quickly or having speed bursts left when I got there to get out of trouble. I kid you not, it felt like the freedom that I had previously enjoyed so much had been taken away. I assure you it was not a pleasant feeling.

The restricted use of leap of faith is a complete game-changer for me. And definitely not for the better. Please don't bring this change to the live servers.
-blarg

xTethx

08-29-2011, 08:24 PM

Caseas

08-29-2011, 08:39 PM

Players will adapt. The change is gonna slow you down, that much is true; however, if your huge concern is time-spent, you could always use some Game Genie code to give you no-clip, infinite ammo, 999 lives, and all those other cheats you probably used to beat games in 10 minutes.

Please close this thread.

TheDearLeader

08-29-2011, 08:43 PM

Please close this thread.

This.

C'mon man, we didn't need another one. Be reasonable.

mournbladereigns

08-29-2011, 10:01 PM

get a phiarlan pendant of time, somehow you will find the courage to go on playing:)

Qezuzu

08-29-2011, 10:08 PM

Why another thread?

Rumbaar

08-29-2011, 11:11 PM

I guess it's the same level of deal as it is to create your own thread on the subject. We all want to be unique and have our fun.

protokon

08-29-2011, 11:17 PM

get a phiarlan pendant of time, somehow you will find the courage to go on playing:)

doesn't work in explorer areas, which is primarily where I used my wings the most.

I want my wings back :mad:

Letrii

08-29-2011, 11:38 PM

Don't have a FvS, what do wings do that is such a big deal?

TheDearLeader

08-29-2011, 11:41 PM

Don't have a FvS, what do wings do that is such a big deal?

They randomly create dozens of threads about the same topic.

Pretty powerful, huh?

dragon2fire

08-29-2011, 11:44 PM

Don't have a FvS, what do wings do that is such a big deal?

They are fun!!!!...that and they speed things up you effectivly move faster. they are getting nerfed cause they are very powerful for kiting so you can dot and kite and solo say the new raid....and that is embarrassing for the dev that made it so they respond by taking our toy away and that has thouse of us that play mainly fvs in a uproar.

bluecheet

08-30-2011, 12:21 AM

drink a haste pot... /thread

dragon2fire

08-30-2011, 12:22 AM

You know its funny nothing in this game has ever had me this ticked off before i am mad like really mad like not even enjoying my fvs at all any more kind of mad over this ...i guess thats a me problem but sigh ....

DustTheWind

08-30-2011, 12:43 AM

I think they at very least need to let them use it in explorer areas or quests.

The_Brave2

08-30-2011, 12:43 AM

I think they at very least need to let them use it in explorer areas or quests.

So do I, sign the thread :D

Wings in Public and Explorer Areas (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337569)

BlargneyTheSecond

08-30-2011, 03:53 AM

Look, I've been playing this game long enough to know how to play the exploration mini-game well. I have haste potions, I have the pendant of time, I have jump maxed out. I farmed the **** out of Ghola-Fan to get myself royal guard masks. I went to the trouble of getting myself FvS for the leap of faith ability.

I think I need to state this more clearly.

1) From the few dev comments on the issue, it sounds like their objective is to balance the combat applications of leap of faith. I fully understand that balancing combat is important in games.

2) With the heavy restriction on number of charges usable in a short amount of time, a favored soul has strong incentives to reserve them for combat. If you use them up just getting around, you have no charges left to use in a fight.

3) A FvS who keeps them exclusively for combat will feel minimal impact on their fighting style and effectiveness. Fighting will stay the same after the nerf.

4) If you save the leaps for combat, then you aren't using them out of combat, ie getting around. If you aren't using leaps to get around quickly, everything will take more time.

Conclusion: you're wasting my time. THIS IS NOT COOL. Not only that, you're wasting my time without even achieving the apparent objective of balancing combat.

There are plenty of games I've rejected primarily on the basis that their ratio of fun to walking around was skewed badly in the waste-time-walking direction. It's a horrible business model, and a deal-breaker as far as I'm concerned. Wasting people's time is inconsiderate, no matter how you cut it.
-blarg

pHo3nix

08-30-2011, 04:04 AM

Players will adapt to life with limited wings. Some faster than others. Think the best thing to do is just move on, the change is done and no matter of posting is going to revert it back to what it once was: Broken.

Yes, players will adapt, but it doesn't mean it's not a bad move to change after so many time something that people pay for. I wouldn't have bought fvs if i had known that wings were limited.

Aaxeyu

08-30-2011, 04:31 AM

when people here say that this nerf has gutted the favored soul class, they're not wrong or over-exaggerating. It really really has.

lol, no.
This change is long overdue.

If the reduced mobility makes FvS unplayable, then every other class has always been unplayable, and that is not really the case now is it?

Get over it.

pHo3nix

08-30-2011, 04:48 AM

lol, no.
This change is long overdue.

If the reduced mobility makes FvS unplayable, then every other class has always been unplayable, and that is not really the case now is it?

Get over it.

Not unplayable, just a lot less fun than before. Playing without striders is possible, but i guess i would shot myself in the head if i had to run at normal speed all the day long. Fast = fun, slow = boring :)

Teharahma

08-30-2011, 04:49 AM

Moar drama plz

Truga

08-30-2011, 04:50 AM

lol, no.
This change is long overdue.

If the reduced mobility makes FvS unplayable, then every other class has always been unplayable, and that is not really the case now is it?

Get over it.

It is for some people apparently.

IMHO, all turbine needs to do is add a 6 cooldown timer to leap every time you get hit. That way you can't simply leap your way out of trouble, but the mobility of the class is not reduced when you're just running through.

quijenoth

08-30-2011, 05:02 AM

Oh come on, how is flying across Amrath in 1 minute less fun than doing it with a full party killing mobs on the way in 20 minutes? wings is just a shortcut, nothing more - You get across zones just as easy with featherfall, haste pots, plus sprint boosts as a ranger/barbarian but you dont see them asking for unlimited sprint boosts!?!!?

I think your experience of slower travel on lamannia is also a measure of no airship access. Airships vastly speed up wait times on quests (unless every player is collecting ship buffs).

Sure I miss my teleport spell when not playing my wizard but its no more fun than running through zones. In fact catching some of the general conversations can be more entertaining to travel slower :) I've often held off zoning sometimes to see what people will reply to said joke in general.

Saying that you think the amount of time spent traveling has ruined your experience is nonsense. Have you ever played Everquest when it first came out, traveling by foot from Qeynos to Freeport? (or further on to Feydwer)?

I once did the run on my first character, it took me almost 2 hours game time to make the trip only to realise I was kill-on-sight to the Freeport guards there who prompty beat me down sending me to my bind point back in Qeynos!!!!! Yes I was gutted but I had a blast dodging creatures far beyond my level and exploring the zones I'd never seen before. I remember it fondly even now although I wasted 4 hours of my life completing the journey.

Passing over areas quicker does not make the journey more fun, it just allows you to enjoy your destination more quickly. Which, if im not mistaken, is actually a luxury of wings not a desired WAI effect of wings.

FengXian

08-30-2011, 05:25 AM

you're wasting my time

yes, you are.

Letrii

08-30-2011, 06:30 AM

Travelling from Qeynos to Freeport at lvl 5 was entertaining to say the least.

Bago

08-30-2011, 01:51 PM

The best thing about City of Heroes was superleap.
(The worst thing about MxO was how bad their version of superleap was in comparison .. lol)
The best thing about Champions Online was swinging. Teleport was "better", but swinging was more fun.
The best thing about DCUO was acrobatics.

Perspicacity

08-30-2011, 02:13 PM

Players will adapt to life with limited wings. Some faster than others. Think the best thing to do is just move on, the change is done and no matter of posting is going to revert it back to what it once was: Broken.

I fail to see how this very simple power, the power to jump far and fast, was broken. Please explain.

Gratch

08-30-2011, 02:23 PM

, plus sprint boosts as a ranger/barbarian but you dont see them asking for unlimited sprint boosts!?!!?

OMG devs, my barb & rangers need unlimited sprint boosts NOW NOW NOW. They are currently only playable until the sprint boosts run out. At that point if the dungeon is not complete and I'm solo'ing I just recall. If there are others, I just pike until the next shrine.

There. I've asked for unlimited sprint boosts. I guess even unlimited it would still be a boost since it's on for 20 off for 10 so we don't even have to rename it to "sprint mode".

Dear devs, please add in mobile ballista emplacements (as used in Framework) for my Artificer to construct when needed to fling oneself far far far forward in a map... like stormcleave or say from Shroud part 1 to Shroud part 5. Limited sprint boosts and wings is too slow.

Perspicacity

08-30-2011, 02:26 PM

You get across zones just as easy with featherfall, haste pots, plus sprint boosts as a ranger/barbarian but you dont see them asking for unlimited sprint boosts!?!!?

Not the same, you get 5 shots of speed boost at level 1 plus, later on extra uses from enhancements and some items. My barb has 9 speed boosts versus 5 shots of wings, not to mention that speed boost lasts for 20 seconds, wings are a one shot jump. My barbarian can already keep pace with a fav, After UD 11 my barbarian's Speed boost will be WAY better than wings which means wings will be way under powered. A level 1 Barbarian's power should not be better or even comparable to a level 17 favored souls power.

Qindark

08-30-2011, 02:47 PM

Not the same, you get 5 shots of speed boost at level 1 plus, later on extra uses from enhancements and some items. My barb has 9 speed boosts versus 5 shots of wings, not to mention that speed boost lasts for 20 seconds, wings are a one shot jump. My barbarian can already keep pace with a fav, After UD 11 my barbarian's Speed boost will be WAY better than wings which means wings will be way under powered. A level 1 Barbarian's power should not be better or even comparable to a level 17 favored souls power.

Does barbarian's haste boost negate red DA? oh yeah, nope.

Perspicacity

08-30-2011, 02:56 PM

Does barbarian's haste boost negate red DA? oh yeah, nope.

That's why its a level 1 power. Your only strengthening my argument. Favored souls are the D&D equivalent of Jesus Christ. Yes they can do miraculous stuff but there suppose to. Being broken is not a balance issue it's there whole character concept of the class, if it ain't broken it ant a fav.

FYI, I have a level 4 barb who HAS gotten out of red DA with only angers step and a sprint boost I. Its no angel wings but I was triple harried and still out ran the mob... barely, but I did.

EDIT: By the way I like how you site dungeon alerts as being a good thing.

pHo3nix

08-30-2011, 03:15 PM

EDIT: By the way I like how you site dungeon alerts as being a good thing.

Disapproving wings and liking DA is not that strange: it means he likes a slow paced game.

I love wings and hate DA, cause i love fast paced game :)

Perspicacity

08-30-2011, 03:23 PM

Disapproving wings and liking DA is not that strange: it means he likes a slow paced game.

I love wings and hate DA, cause i love fast paced game :)

That makes sense. Honestly I am kind of confused as to why the anti-wing sentiment even exists. It doesn't hurt anyone for them to have that power. I don't have any character who's ever had it and I have never cared that others did. If a fav wants to zerg why not let them?

Ganak

08-30-2011, 03:35 PM

I feel the same way about the nerf to tumbling while stealthed they did four years ago or so.

I still cry myself to sleep just thinking about it :(

Perspicacity

09-05-2011, 12:15 AM

I just found out that one of the items that drops in the new quest pack in UD 11 is a pair of 'rocket' boots. It's basically an angel wing clicky. So not only are they nerfing wigs there passing out the newly nerfed wings to every class in the game? What next? A 'music box' trinket that's a bard song clicky? I Silver flame shield that has a Turn undead clicky? I know how about a helm that grants a pally aura? Why make classes different when we can just give every ability to every class? Artificers are not OP but considering the direction the game is going and the fact that Artys are UMD sticks it's dumb not go go exclusively artificer from now on, they'll be able to do everything; Heck, they pretty much can already.

Some may disagree with me but know this, I just deleted my Fav and I'm never making another one, others will follow suit.

Volaxis

09-05-2011, 05:43 AM

BrightAsh

09-05-2011, 05:57 AM

Aurora1979

09-05-2011, 07:20 AM

Lol, in trying so hard to prove his point, i feel the OP has only proven that the fuzz is over-exaggerated by people.

Really, the only reason is travel time? Time spend ingame in general? Imho it's time to learn to enjoy DDO in a different fashion.

I dont think they are to be honest. Someones fun within the game is a subjective matter. Who are you, or any of us, to say how much any change will effect someones enjoyment of the game.

Theres hundreds of differnt things people enjoy about DDO... personally, I havent played a high level arcane since shortly after U9.

I didnt moan, too much, about it at the time and I listened to lots of people tellothers like me that it will be fine and we will adjust but FOR ME arcanes now are not as much fun.

I suspect the same will happen with wings here. Yes, fwiw I do think most people will adapt and move on.... Im still here after U9. I just found a new fav class. But that doesnt give us the right to TELL people what gives them fun and what doesnt.

Aaxeyu

09-05-2011, 07:28 AM

I didnt moan, too much, about it at the time and I listened to lots of people tellothers like me that it will be fine and we will adjust but FOR ME arcanes now are not as much fun.

I'm curious, what exactly was it that made you stop enjoying your caster?

Aurora1979

09-05-2011, 07:35 AM

I'm curious, what exactly was it that made you stop enjoying your caster?

I just really enjoyed the playstyle. I liked the hold and hit with a woo woo stick and, from what i read at the time, I found I was using quite a few spells. Rather then just mass hold and beat down.

At the time I was doing alot of epic stuff and really enjoyed the play style.

I know your probably gonna shout at me :) but, as I say above.... personally, for me, i enjoyed it more then I did after U9.

I should add that Im in the process of running up a new AM atm, at level 12 and I have my old AM tr'd but sat at level 3 waiting to be a PM. I will give them a go again but I personally did enjoy it more.

Im de railing alot here but my point is just..... some people enjoy things and some people dont. I wont whinge too much about wings but I dont think its fair to say that people who feel the fun in a FVS is the wings and once nerfed they wont enjoy it as much. Thats their decision to make.

EDIT: to sum up, and actually answer your question rather then waffle :) that changes made to auto crit on holds and the raise in mobs saves against it.... I know with more spells you can make it stick and stay but.... yea... as I say, just a personal thing.
Last thing though.... Ive not played on Lam so I will wait for the wings to go live before I make any judgement. From what Ive heard, with 6 clicks and a 15 sec cool down it wont effect my personal playstyle much. I use wings a fair bit but I can get away without spamming I think.

~sumptingwong

09-05-2011, 08:52 AM

Players will adapt to life with limited wings. Some faster than others. Think the best thing to do is just move on, the change is done and no matter of posting is going to revert it back to what it once was: Broken.

Wings were not Broken... Not Over Powered... Wings were simply the ability to move with Dungeon Alert, which Dungeon Alert is Broken and should be removed

~sumptingwong

09-05-2011, 08:54 AM

Wings clipping = lower enjoyment of the _game_ sure. But for whatever reason there doing it, exploits, were still gonna exploit the shiz outta this thing, dont think wing clipping will stop us beating your hardest raids in under 10 minutes.

Wings have basically nothing to do with raids except for if you are Soloing it, which is usually spending more pots then Pugging it/heal scrolls, and if you are flying over to the different pads in VoD

~sumptingwong

09-05-2011, 08:56 AM

get a phiarlan pendant of time, somehow you will find the courage to go on playing:)

It slows down questing time still by alot, I roll Favored Souls because they increase xp/minute then vs a Cleric that has same abilities but no wings.

~sumptingwong

09-05-2011, 08:57 AM

drink a haste pot... /thread

Wings move ALOT faster then just haste pots...... and they are free, and haste pots don't go through DA

Viisari

09-05-2011, 09:01 AM

It slows down questing time still by alot, I roll Favored Souls because they increase xp/minute then vs a Cleric that has same abilities but no wings.

Man, you people can't even get your facts straight, no wonder the nerf is going through.

Aaxeyu

09-05-2011, 09:07 AM

Wings were not Broken... Not Over Powered... Wings were simply the ability to move with Dungeon Alert, which Dungeon Alert is Broken and should be removed

Dungeon alert is not broken. You may not like it, but that does not mean it's broken. The devs like DA and it's working as intended (in most cases), you are supposed to be heavily slowed down and imobilized.
With that said we can clearly see that wings are broken becuase they allow you "to move with dungeon alert".

Here is more good arguments for why wings are OP/broken:
It slows down questing time still by alot, I roll Favored Souls because they increase xp/minute then vs a Cleric that has same abilities but no wings.

Wings move ALOT faster then just haste pots...... and they are free, and haste pots don't go through DA

For being aganst the change you are doing a pretty good job of convincing people that the change is good.

dragon2fire

09-05-2011, 09:27 AM

I have said it before i will say it again. Wings are not what is op what is op is the dots they are to powerful that is why there precious raid got broken not the wings the dots and aov. Address the real issue if you are the concerned about balance devs.

Ungood

09-05-2011, 10:54 AM

Viisari

09-05-2011, 11:01 AM

Great idea. nerf the dots too. Why settle for one or the other. go for both! :D

DoTs need a fortitude save and they're fine, but that doesn't mean wings don't need some adjusting too.

dragon2fire

09-05-2011, 11:09 AM

There really is nothing wrong with the wings as they are right now honestly. and for the record if they do this i really am done healing any of you and turbine really does not get another red cent form me.

mutilador

09-05-2011, 11:22 AM

dragon2fire

09-05-2011, 11:55 AM

You can do it, just roll a caster....

oh dont doubt it i will wf sorc and going to use raid tokens for the heart of wood no cash for you turbine.

BlargneyTheSecond

09-05-2011, 01:13 PM

This discussion is reminding me of a parallel in employment. In my experience, there are two kinds of workplaces: those that prioritize getting things done vs those that prioritize how you spend your time. Correspondingly, there are people that are happier in one or the other of those environments. I'm seeing that come out in this discussion.

I'm objective-oriented and self-employed. I like to get my workload done, then knock off for the afternoon. Conversely, I absolutely hate workplaces where co-workers and managers complain if you're not in your cubicle from 9am to 5pm. All they care about is that you waste your life at the exact same hours as they do.

I outgrew that rat-race many years ago. My time is valuable, and I run my life accordingly. Don't clip my wings just because you want to waste more of your own time. Slowing me down doesn't justify the fact that you don't value the minutes and hours of your life.
-blarg

BlargneyTheSecond

09-05-2011, 01:24 PM

You know what? Freddie put it better than I ever could:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzGwKwLmgM

dragon2fire

09-05-2011, 01:29 PM

Nice blargney very nice

Viisari

09-05-2011, 01:43 PM

I outgrew that rat-race many years ago. My time is valuable, and I run my life accordingly. Don't clip my wings just because you want to waste more of your own time. Slowing me down doesn't justify the fact that you don't value the minutes and hours of your life.
-blarg

If speed is all you care about then roll a toon with sprint boost and stop whining. Wings *ARE NOT* considerably faster than a sprint boosting barb, if faster at all. Yes you can use wings constantly atm, but there really aren't a lot of places where you wouldn't encounter combat before sprint boost runs out.

Alternatively, roll a monk. With sprint boost.

If wasting time is such a huge issue to you, then MMORPG's are THE genre of gaming you should NEVER play.

This picture (http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-08-02/1280722714336.jpg) sums this thread quite nicely, for reason has left these discussions long ago and now it's just whining for the sake of whining.

TemperanceC

09-05-2011, 02:08 PM

Jay203

09-05-2011, 02:20 PM

Ok for all you other players who are telling those of us to get over it, what if they took lich from from a PM? or took away a cleric's healing aura? what if they took con boost from barb's or sneak attack from a rogue? Well to me having wings on my FVS makes them unique from just playing a cleric it is a major class feature. I think the dev's are completely in the wrong and need to leave our wings alone!! So all the non FVS player's stick a cork in it!

they already moved lich form from lvl 12 to lvl 18

they already moved healing aura from lvl 6 to lvl 12

they already nerf'ed rogue sneak attack by putting more fortification on monsters

they can't really take away "con" boost since every class has its ability enhancement, altho i'm pretty sure everyone would love to get str boost on barbarian so i don't see your freaking point with this

just because it's time for FvS to actually get tweaked, FvS players are just crying as if the world is ending....

sigh, what has the playerbase in DDO fallen to...? :(:(:(:(

TemperanceC

09-05-2011, 03:04 PM

I will have you know that the player base has not fallen, it elitist jerks who have become the problem. IMO wings are a class feature that makes playing a FVS unique. It is something that no other class has, I was so excited to get my wings and I love them and hate to see them nerf'd. All of the people telling us to quit whining, well quit reading if you don't like what you see or hear. We are not whining we are expressing our opinion so that maybe the dev's will see how much this is making us angry! Its not our fault that the new raids were not designed properly or did not take into account the different strength's of each class. I have as much right to post and state my opinion as the next person

Aaxeyu

09-05-2011, 03:06 PM

Viisari

09-05-2011, 03:48 PM

I will have you know that the player base has not fallen, it elitist jerks who have become the problem.

How are they a problem?

IMO wings are a class feature that makes playing a FVS unique. It is something that no other class has, I was so excited to get my wings and I love them and hate to see them nerf'd.

Monks had leap before favored souls did and favored souls have many other perks in addition to their wings, stop talking ****.

All of the people telling us to quit whining, well quit reading if you don't like what you see or hear. We are not whining we are expressing our opinion so that maybe the dev's will see how much this is making us angry! Its not our fault that the new raids were not designed properly or did not take into account the different strength's of each class. I have as much right to post and state my opinion as the next person

I doubt this nerf has much to do with the new raids, wings are way too powerful in general for their current cost, thus they are being nerfed. As far as I know there has been pretty much no balancing done on favored souls since their release and now their turn has come like it has for everyone else before. Deal with it.

And unlike you'd think from the general tone of whining on these forums, you ARE NOT LOSING YOUR WINGS, stop acting like you were.

Uska

09-05-2011, 04:06 PM

Travelling from Qeynos to Freeport at lvl 5 was entertaining to say the least.

kind of like running across Lok(spelling) in swg before mounts and speeders

destiny4405

09-05-2011, 04:11 PM

They randomly create dozens of threads about the same topic.

Pretty powerful, huh?

hahahaha... good one :)

Hikup

09-05-2011, 05:28 PM

Some new dev that has never played 2-3 of the classes comes up with a raid idea, for some reson it doesn't get much testing before going to lamma. Instead of fixing said mechanic, they nerf wings.

Dev: "OMG our NEW raid is easily trumped by an ability that's been in game for 4 years"
"Well, we better nerf it, nerf it good then"

PS: can i have a refund for fvs? they will no longer be what i purchased.

TemperanceC

09-05-2011, 05:31 PM

Zeruell

09-05-2011, 06:53 PM

...you ARE NOT LOSING YOUR WINGS, stop acting like you were.

What are you on about? It's what he's complaining about, so it must be true. :rolleyes:

Some comparisons have been floating around, but this sounds more like the U9 nerf to Monk ki generation than anything.

Pre-emptive tl;dr: "No more autocrits? Autocrits gave my Monk extra ki to use his unique* CLASS features! He's not fun anymore!"

*Funnily enough, that ki sometimes went into fueling Abundant Step.

Elaril

09-05-2011, 07:49 PM

What are you on about? It's what he's complaining about, so it must be true. :rolleyes:

Some comparisons have been floating around, but this sounds more like the U9 nerf to Monk ki generation than anything.

Pre-emptive tl;dr: "No more autocrits? Autocrits gave my Monk extra ki to use his unique* CLASS features! He's not fun anymore!"

*Funnily enough, that ki sometimes went into fueling Abundant Step.

Pretty much everyone I know who played a monk before U9 stopped playing the monk after U9 on pretty much those same grounds. Anecdotal, yes, so read what you want into it.

dragon2fire

09-05-2011, 08:00 PM

BlargneyTheSecond

09-05-2011, 08:01 PM

If speed is all you care about then roll a toon with sprint boost and stop whining. Wings *ARE NOT* considerably faster than a sprint boosting barb, if faster at all. Yes you can use wings constantly atm, but there really aren't a lot of places where you wouldn't encounter combat before sprint boost runs out.

Alternatively, roll a monk. With sprint boost.

If wasting time is such a huge issue to you, then MMORPG's are THE genre of gaming you should NEVER play.
You can shoot your little ad hominems all you want, but that still doesn't constitute a valid argument.

The salient thing that you are failing to understand is that this change does have an impact. It might not be something YOU care about, but I do. I'm expressing my opinion because there's nobody out there who can or will do it for me. You can impugn my character, my methods, or my motives, but it's not going to make me stop talking.

Here's the rub: If YOU don't like wings, then don't make a favoured soul who uses them. You've no call to impose that on me. I don't want to play a barbarian. As far as I'm concerned they're the most narcissistic class in the game, and that simply doesn't appeal to me. I have a monk, and I enjoy it, thanks. I also have a favored soul, and it's my favourite character. Wings are my favourite part of that character for that matter, so I'll speak out about this change. That's my prerogative.

Finally, I'll play whatever game I feel like, thank you very much. You're absolutely correct that many MMOs force you to spend inordinate amounts of time doing unfun things before finally allowing you to do fun things. Frankly, I think that's completely messed up. I don't play those games for a reason. DDO has been different, and I think it's a legacy that's worth preserving. If YOU want to play an MMO that makes you go super slowly all the time, go for it. There's no shortage of other games for you to play like that. I'll keep voicing my opinion that this change is going in that direction and it's not desirable.
-blarg

loki_3369

09-05-2011, 09:57 PM

they already moved lich form from lvl 12 to lvl 18

they already moved healing aura from lvl 6 to lvl 12

they already nerf'ed rogue sneak attack by putting more fortification on monsters

they can't really take away "con" boost since every class has its ability enhancement, altho i'm pretty sure everyone would love to get str boost on barbarian so i don't see your freaking point with this

just because it's time for FvS to actually get tweaked, FvS players are just crying as if the world is ending....

sigh, what has the playerbase in DDO fallen to...? :(:(:(:(

People whined about the changes you listed as examples as well... Just to a lower extent ;)

NaturalHazard

09-05-2011, 10:06 PM

OMG devs, my barb & rangers need unlimited sprint boosts NOW NOW NOW. They are currently only playable until the sprint boosts run out. At that point if the dungeon is not complete and I'm solo'ing I just recall. If there are others, I just pike until the next shrine.

There. I've asked for unlimited sprint boosts. I guess even unlimited it would still be a boost since it's on for 20 off for 10 so we don't even have to rename it to "sprint mode".

Dear devs, please add in mobile ballista emplacements (as used in Framework) for my Artificer to construct when needed to fling oneself far far far forward in a map... like stormcleave or say from Shroud part 1 to Shroud part 5. Limited sprint boosts and wings is too slow.

Also please im ticked off, wizards bards and sorcs should be able to put a ddoor where ever they want to on a map unless there is some warding magic or something. :D

simo0208

09-05-2011, 10:24 PM

With the wings change, I'd wish it were given at a much earlier level because the power of the ability is nowhere near the level of the character.

I'd support it more if it were like Paladin's smite evil ability. Get more as you level and they recharge slowly over time.

simo0208

09-05-2011, 10:29 PM

The elitist jerk comment is actually fairly accurate. the only people who are really abusing wings who have really broken wings are a few pro gamers. The rest of us the majority of us have not been abusing them. That is why where ticked. I think what the dev who came up with this idea is forgetting is that his barb will need heals to kill that raid boss and ticking off healers is a terrible way to get those heals.

If you weren't abusing them, and so few were/are, then how does the change really affect you?

Seems like you really don't have a leg to stand on then. Just continue to play the game as you were and I would find it hard to believe that you'll run out of them before the next shrine.

dragon2fire

09-05-2011, 10:35 PM

If you weren't abusing them, and so few were/are, then how does the change really affect you?

Seems like you really don't have a leg to stand on then. Just continue to play the game as you were and I would find it hard to believe that you'll run out of them before the next shrine.

The reasons given for this nerf do not ring ture not in the least. Wings are not op not really what is op is the dots they came out with in update ten. And no i wont continue to play they are a huge part of the fun factor. With that gone i am not going to continue to do the thankless task of keeping random pug alive while they yell at me about heals. no thanks just going to tr and stop giving turbine any of my money.

Faent

09-06-2011, 02:03 AM

The reasons given for this nerf do not ring ture not in the least.

No reasons have been given for the nerf other than the claim that wings were overpowered. And that claim has not been substantiated anywhere.

Viisari

09-06-2011, 03:04 AM

Pretty much everyone I know who played a monk before U9 stopped playing the monk after U9 on pretty much those same grounds. Anecdotal, yes, so read what you want into it.

When U9 was released, I remember someone saying that bad monks will get nerfed but good monks will remain unaffected by the removal of autocrit. Funnily enough, none of the good monks I know quit playing monks and they're all still doing a bloody fine job at their monky stuff.

The same seems to apply here, since I've yet to see any FvS I respect whine here until their arse bleeds.

Here's the rub: If YOU don't like wings, then don't make a favoured soul who uses them. You've no call to impose that on me.

Heh, I'm planning to TR my sorc into a FvS once I have the time regardless of this nerf, and I expect wings to be fun and useful once I do, even with the nerf done. And what are you smoking, I'm not imposing anything on you, the devs are, and they have every right to do that.

Sure, play what you want, but the reality is that any game that has been out this long will be changing constantly for all kinds of reasons. If the devs weren't set on their path they would've commented this after their initial communications. But they haven't. Someone made a comparison to the fiasco with cannith crafting and raid loot, bot that was a completely different scenario. Once it became apparent it was a ridiculous change the devs commented on it immediately, and from what I remember they even said it wasn't really intended to be like that and the patch notes were released without oversight/by one person.

In this matter, they've made quite clear they want to see wings changed, what their reasons are is completely irrelevant at this point, but if I had to guess, they want wings to remain an useful escape mechanism but prevent them from being that escape mechanism ALL THE TIME like they are currently. This is why they didn't make it so that red alert or chains disable wings, and I think they even commented on the chains part at some point. Heck, I personally know favored souls who approve of this nerf, so it's not just the devs who see the issue.

If wings are your only reason to play favored souls, well that's just too bad, but they are not what makes favored souls great. If wings were removed and not just nerfed, favored souls would still be great. All this whining is without much basis at all. Quit playing your favored souls and see if anybody cares. Protip: nobody cares.

And stop giving me that **** about not finding healers, not going to happen, that's just you peeps being self-righteous.

pHo3nix

09-06-2011, 05:54 AM

Heh, I'm planning to TR my sorc into a FvS once I have the time regardless of this nerf, and I expect wings to be fun and useful once I do, even with the nerf done.

Yes, cause you've never tried unlimited wings i guess. If you were used to use them every 3 sec for moving (like i do) i assure you would notice the difference.

Is it the end of the world? No.
Is it really annoying? Sure it is.

It's like firewall: now that they nerfed it to the ground it's still useful, but it's ridiculous compared to what it was. So new people coming to the game could find it powerful, but it's no more a must have (at least in my caster lives i never use it and i don't miss it ).

People do not like nerfs, people like buffs: so it's better to implement an underpowered feature and then buff it than implement a great feature just to nerf it.

Viisari

09-06-2011, 06:01 AM

Yes, cause you've never tried unlimited wings i guess. If you were used to use them every 3 sec for moving (like i do) i assure you would notice the difference.

Is it the end of the world? No.
Is it really annoying? Sure it is.

It's like firewall: now that they nerfed it to the ground it's still useful, but it's ridiculous compared to what it was. So new people coming to the game could find it powerful, but it's no more a must have (at least in my caster lives i never use it and i don't miss it ).

People do not like nerfs, people like buffs: so it's better to implement an underpowered feature and then buff it than implement a great feature just to nerf it.

My sorc is an air savant so I actually have a pretty good idea what the wings are like atm.

Yes it might be annoying at first but let me tell you what will happen, because exactly the same thing happened with firewall and lots of other nerfs too: People will moan at first, patch day comes, we'll still hear a moan or two, and after a week, nobody remembers it anymore and have moved on and adapted to the new situation.

You're actually one of the reasonable persons here, but most of these others will just keep yelling "DOOOOoooOOOOoooOOOOOOoooooM"...

Skirmish

09-06-2011, 08:01 AM

So, I finally had time to play with my FvS on Lamania for a time. All I see is a lot of drama over nothing.

Unless they changed it since the original modification, I logged in and had 5 regenerating jumps with a 3-4s delay between jumps.

The jumps themselves regen at 1 every 15s. While I do find this annoying as I am a wing-addict that likes using it non-stop to get from place to place and to get out of trouble quickly, I don't see this as the major class-killing action people are making it out to be. Depending on how much you jump in combat, you've got more than enough time between the major fights to regen your jumps.

Is it annoying that after we've gotten used to the FvS all this time it's been live? Yes.
Is it FvS/Game breaking? Not by far.

Edit: Besides, I can still make my double leap from the Harbor Master's roof to the Harbor Beacon, so I'm happy. One day I will find a way to get on top of that aqueduct.

Caged

09-06-2011, 08:25 AM

Zeruell

09-06-2011, 10:18 AM

It's like firewall: now that they nerfed it to the ground it's still useful, but it's ridiculous compared to what it was. So new people coming to the game could find it powerful, but it's no more a must have (at least in my caster lives i never use it and i don't miss it ).

Gotta' call this. Wall of Fire was railed against for years for being the single most broken arcane* spell in the game. (Yes, yes, devils, mantles, and such; the point stands.)

It was ridiculous compared to what it is now. As you noted, it's still quite effective; it can still be used to break most of the game in half. But we have other options to achieve similar (even superior) results now.

I understand the "Don't nerf -- buff!" preference, and I agree with it to an extent, but (more often than we might like) that's just not feasible in every case.

*Its divine counterpart? Blade Barrier, of course. Wasn't someone trying to claim that kiting was only an issue with the new DoTs?

pHo3nix

09-06-2011, 11:18 AM

Gotta' call this. Wall of Fire was railed against for years for being the single most broken arcane* spell in the game. (Yes, yes, devils, mantles, and such; the point stands.)

Yes, it was really powerful for lvling purpose (expecially in the necro packs), but once you hit the vale and amrath it was (and still is) basically useless :)

The spell pass in u9, except for the nerf to extend, was great, there are now many more options for casters :)

IT on wings and kiting: fvs/clr start kiting through bb since they got it at lvl 12/11, so well before wings. Fvs tanking bosses usually shieldblock and DP while healing themselves, i do not see them flying around tbh. When i play my wf fvs i usually melee and DP in boss fights, if i need to reduce incoming damage i just put my DoD on, shieldblock and stay there.

If you use wings only for those "oh ****" moments there won't be almost any difference after the update; the real pain is for those who use wings instead of running (i'm in this category). As i said, my wf LoB usually melee, so it's not like i'm flying everywhere while fighting, but i will find the nerf really annoying for when i move.

I will adapt and live with the change or i will TR into something else, but i continue to believe that wings nerf is unneeded and won't solve anything :)

Elaril

09-06-2011, 12:04 PM

When U9 was released, I remember someone saying that bad monks will get nerfed but good monks will remain unaffected by the removal of autocrit. Funnily enough, none of the good monks I know quit playing monks and they're all still doing a bloody fine job at their monky stuff.

The same seems to apply here, since I've yet to see any FvS I respect whine here until their arse bleeds.

Nah, that's not it. But that's a good way to replace my anecdotal evidence with your own in a mildly insulting manner. I'm pretty impressed.

They were good enough monk builds to where they weren't broken too much by the update, they just stopped playing them because they weren't what they once were. That's pretty much the core of the issue here as well. I see all these "I will adapt," and the self righteous "the good players will adapt" posts. This is empty rhetoric aimed to get people to agree with you because no one wants to be known as a bad player who can't adapt.

The thing with the wing nerf is that it is not something we should have to adapt to, and so it is more annoying than usual nerfs. It's not like they had no knowledge that favored souls had access to leap of faith prior to designing their new raid. I understand that it's been a while for them since they released a new raid, but they really should consider the abilities of all classes in their raid design. Regen timers and hard limits on use are ridiculous on at will abilities.

Hikup

09-06-2011, 12:13 PM

Now, instead of players crying for nerfs we have devs designing raids that demand it.

Viisari

09-06-2011, 12:43 PM

The thing with the wing nerf is that it is not something we should have to adapt to, and so it is more annoying than usual nerfs. It's not like they had no knowledge that favored souls had access to leap of faith prior to designing their new raid. I understand that it's been a while for them since they released a new raid, but they really should consider the abilities of all classes in their raid design. Regen timers and hard limits on use are ridiculous on at will abilities.

As I said before, I highly doubt this nerf is happening solely because of the new raids. From the dev posts I've read it feels more like a general balancing they've been looking at for a while now. Or maybe I missed the one where they stated that our new raid is broken by favored souls so we'll just nerf your wings.

Elaril

09-06-2011, 12:52 PM

As I said before, I highly doubt this nerf is happening solely because of the new raids. From the dev posts I've read it feels more like a general balancing they've been looking at for a while now. Or maybe I missed the one where they stated that our new raid is broken by favored souls so we'll just nerf your wings.

One would have to think that the wing nerf would have been in the original implementation of U-11 on Lamannia had it been in the works for a while. Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4013168&postcount=69) is the first dev post on the subject matter that I have seen. Read into it what you will, but due to its location (in the raid discussion thread) one would have to assume that they felt that their new raid was broken by free turbine point pot chugging, wing spamming favored souls.

Perspicacity

09-06-2011, 01:15 PM

Viisari

09-06-2011, 01:28 PM

One would have to think that the wing nerf would have been in the original implementation of U-11 on Lamannia had it been in the works for a while. Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4013168&postcount=69) is the first dev post on the subject matter that I have seen. Read into it what you will, but due to its location (in the raid discussion thread) one would have to assume that they felt that their new raid was broken by free turbine point pot chugging, wing spamming favored souls.

Yes, he's talking about it being an global issue rather than an issue with LoB, if it was an issue that only affected LoB they'd just nerf them there, yes?

Leap of Faith’s original design did not account for continuously or methodically use to be so game deforming and we’re regretting its current parameters so expect them to change…. Very soon.

He's basically saying Leap of Faith is not working as it was intended to work, thus they are correcting that.

Perspicacity

09-06-2011, 01:36 PM

Dungeon alert is not broken. You may not like it, but that does not mean it's broken. The devs like DA and it's working as intended (in most cases).

That's the problem, it's the intention that was ill conceived. This game is strife with anti-zerging philosophy at least on the dev side and it boggles me. More people zerg than don't. Why rail against it? If the customers wants it and you give them the opposite you lose money. It's not that DA is broken, it's that the very idea of DA existing is broken. Impeding my game play because I'm to good at it is a D bag move. It's just another example of the Gigax mentality of, I'm the DM and my job is to kill you, that is rampent at Turbine.

We all start at level 1 and cap at 20, that's all the balance we need.

Elaril

09-06-2011, 01:51 PM

Yes, he's talking about it being an global issue rather than an issue with LoB, if it was an issue that only affected LoB they'd just nerf them there, yes?

You'd think, which is why a global nerf is rather silly.

He's basically saying Leap of Faith is not working as it was intended to work, thus they are correcting that.

It's pretty much working as intended, the problem is that they didn't account for it in their design. That quote was one of the more ridiculous things that I have ever seen a developer say publically. What would you, as a rational thinking human being, think people are going to do with an ability that has a three second cooldown and small spellpoint cost that allows you to go from point a to b much quicker than you would otherwise?

If this were not about the raid, and was about its global overpowerment, then why would they not have mentioned it outside the thread on the new raid. The developers are smart people, they know the implications of post location. They made no mention of wings being a global issue, or an issue at all, until their raid was beaten through heavy dotting and kiting.

If I were them, I'd put a hard cap on mnemonic pot use on Lamannia per quest, revert the wing changes and see if the raid is beaten in the same manner.

Hikup

09-06-2011, 01:56 PM

You'd think, which is why a global nerf is rather silly.

It's pretty much working as intended, the problem is that they didn't account for it in their design. That quote was one of the more ridiculous things that I have ever seen a developer say publically. What would you, as a rational thinking human being, think people are going to do with an ability that has a three second cooldown and small spellpoint cost that allows you to go from point a to b much quicker than you would otherwise?

If this were not about the raid, and was about its global overpowerment, then why would they not have mentioned it outside the thread on the new raid. The developers are smart people, they know the implications of post location. They made no mention of wings being a global issue, or an issue at all, until their raid was beaten through heavy dotting and kiting.

If I were them, I'd put a hard cap on mnemonic pot use on Lamannia per quest, revert the wing changes and see if the raid is beaten in the same manner.

While dev intelligence is debatable, I think the lack of common sense is not.

Elaril

09-06-2011, 01:58 PM

While dev intelligence is debatable, I think the lack of common sense is not.

As mind boggling as some of their decisions are, I don't think that their intelligence should ever be brought into question.

Chai

09-06-2011, 02:06 PM

Dungeon alert is not broken. You may not like it, but that does not mean it's broken. The devs like DA and it's working as intended (in most cases), you are supposed to be heavily slowed down and imobilized.
With that said we can clearly see that wings are broken becuase they allow you "to move with dungeon alert".

Here is more good arguments for why wings are OP/broken:

For being aganst the change you are doing a pretty good job of convincing people that the change is good.

Arbitrary game mechanics are arbitrary. DA is about as arbitrary as it gets.

Give customers something for a long period of time and then take it away from them. Watch hilarity ensue. Film at 11.

Of course you are for FvS nerf. Its not the fighter class. Everyone else is OP right?

Wrong.

Perspicacity

09-06-2011, 02:08 PM

1. Epic just isn't epic without an anti rezz mechanic. We won't be turning off raise dead entirely but it will get more difficult to raise your dead on the harder difficulties.

Just thought I'd toss this in here, it's not directly related to the original topic but it is yet another fav soul nerf, a big one, and it pretty well gut checks clerics to.

der_kluge

09-06-2011, 02:10 PM

Seems to me that a longer delay on the wings is all that was really required. Capping the number of times it can be used strikes me as overly artificial and unnecessary.

But the existence of this nerf speaks more to the fact that the lord of blades is too unbeatable through conventional means. I mean, if you've got a melee character that can only be beaten by throwing a bunch of Favored Souls on it, then you've got a serious design problem.

Nerfing FvS' wings is kind of like taking people's car horns away as a way of fixing traffic problems.

Chai

09-06-2011, 02:12 PM

That's the problem, it's the intention that was ill conceived. This game is strife with anti-zerging philosophy at least on the dev side and it boggles me. More people zerg than don't. Why rail against it? If the customers wants it and you give them the opposite you lose money. It's not that DA is broken, it's that the very idea of DA existing is broken. Impeding my game play because I'm to good at it is a D bag move. It's just another example of the Gigax mentality of, I'm the DM and my job is to kill you, that is rampent at Turbine.

We all start at level 1 and cap at 20, that's all the balance we need.

Yeap exactly.

Impeding my game play because I'm to good at it is a D bag move.

We were rocking killzone tactics in the late 80s FPS games up to present. They chose to incorporate some FPS influence into their game rather than make it another sammich tank and spank game which the MMO world is already rife with. Trying to impede FPS players tried and true tactics after basing a good portion of the combat on that style is a blatent contradiction.

Perspicacity

09-06-2011, 02:14 PM

We were rocking killzone tactics in the late 80s FPS games up to present. They chose to incorporate some FPS influence into their game rather than make it another sammich tank and spank game which the MMO world is already rife with. Trying to impede FPS players tried and true tactics after basing a good portion of the combat on that style is a blatant contradiction.

It's like you know me.

Elaril

09-06-2011, 02:18 PM

But the existence of this nerf speaks more to the fact that the lord of blades is too unbeatable through conventional means. I mean, if you've got a melee character that can only be beaten by throwing a bunch of Favored Souls on it, then you've got a serious design problem.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I disagree with this. No one has been given the opportunity on live to beat the raid under actual game circumstances. I'd have powered through it dotting, kiting, and sucking down free potions as well just to be the first to beat it if I actually played on lamannia. Why? Why not? If I have free TP, I will have access to an infinite number of potions, which I do not have on live. So I wouldn't even bother developing a real strategy for the raid.

Historically, most raids have started out as pot guzzling fests for blue bar classes until we figure out an efficient strategy to beat it, then it becomes a grind fest.

Aaxeyu

09-06-2011, 02:29 PM

Arbitrary game mechanics are arbitrary. DA is about as arbitrary as it gets.

Give customers something for a long period of time and then take it away from them. Watch hilarity ensue. Film at 11.

It may be arbitrary, but what has that got to do with what you quoted? I was simply pointing out that DA is not "broken". I don't think DA is a good feature (infact, i hate it), but it's still working just as intended, to slow players down.
DA was brought up as an example to why the wings are OP. It is a very good argument, and trying to get around it by saying that "I don't like DA, so it doesn't count" is just silly.

Of course you are for FvS nerf. Its not the fighter class. Everyone else is OP right?

Wrong.

lol. Typical Chai response.

Newsflash: I am affected by this change just as everyone else. I LOVE to just zerg thourgh everything with my FvS wings, completely disregard DA and any other slow effects and kite anything. But I also realise that it's overpowered.

~sumptingwong

09-06-2011, 03:25 PM

Well I guess since I can't change anyone's opinions then I will just say that you are all a bunch of un-intelligent group of people that are basically saying,"Wings are OP, Once they are nerfed now I will be able to be as good as a Favored Soul or will not be so poorly compared to them.

Dungeon Alert Should have never came to this game in the first place, it is tactics to pull alot of mobs and then save your sp by throwing one or two FW or BB. It isn't even that much of tactics as it is Common Sense (saving sp SHOULD be common sense).

Well I guess if they remove wings they should either remove Dungeon Alert or make it so that every is always harried to prevent any Zerging at all, also remove the abundant step because that goes through DA as well. (Sarcasm on abundant step for those that did not catch it)

Those supporting the nerf that do and not play Favored Souls are lastly un-intelligent because you run with favored souls that use their wings wich helps speed up quests by the most part, so by nerfing the wings your slowing down yourself, I know most of you are just going to say,"What ever," because you are as Stubborn as a jackass, but think what you wish because if you do not care about my opinion I won't care about yours.

Viisari

09-06-2011, 03:34 PM

Those supporting the nerf that do and not play Favored Souls are lastly un-intelligent because you run with favored souls that use their wings wich helps speed up quests by the most part, so by nerfing the wings your slowing down yourself, I know most of you are just going to say,"What ever," because you are as Stubborn as a jackass, but think what you wish because if you do not care about my opinion I won't care about yours.

This is so wrong it's actually pretty funny :D

For your information, unless the whole party is full of favored souls that only wing forward ignoring all mobs, having a favored soul in the party will not make the quest go faster at all.

Having a necromancer in the party on the other hand...

<edit> As an example, in my previous TR, we had a favored soul in our TR group. Before she got wings, she was always behind our two sprint boosting toons, and after she got her wings she still had trouble keeping up. And even if she could go faster, that doesn't really factor in at all when doing xp because everyone in our group is doing stuff in different directions, it'd only matter if *everyone* in the group was a favored soul.

Epics are a different matter entirely, and that's where necromancers rule currently.

~sumptingwong

09-06-2011, 03:52 PM

This is so wrong it's actually pretty funny :D

For your information, unless the whole party is full of favored souls that only wing forward ignoring all mobs, having a favored soul in the party will not make the quest go faster at all.

Having a necromancer in the party on the otherhand...

Then if it is so wrong there is no need for the nerf then. Hi Welcome

Viisari

09-06-2011, 04:01 PM

Then if it is so wrong there is no need for the nerf then. Hi Welcome

They're not being nerfed because they allow for greater movement speed, your point is invalid.

There are different things in this game besides wings the allow for near, if not equal movement speeds, and none of them are being looked at currently.

~sumptingwong

09-06-2011, 04:12 PM

They're not being nerfed because they allow for greater movement speed, your point is invalid.

There are different things in this game besides wings the allow for near, if not equal movement speeds, and none of them are being looked at currently.

They are being nerfed because of breaking through DA, and if that is not the reason by Turbine, then Turbine is just being idiots because then it really is not broken

pie2655

09-06-2011, 04:44 PM

xberto

09-06-2011, 05:12 PM

dragon2fire

09-06-2011, 05:24 PM

TemperanceC

09-06-2011, 06:45 PM

If you don't play a FVS then please stop telling those of us that do to get over it. You do not understand because you have not had wings yourself. Most of the post's I have seen that have stated get over it is coming from some one who does not even play the class. It would be like me telling a barb how to tank or a caster how to cast and when to cast what spells. The fact of the matter is the wing nerf has ****ed a lot of people off and we are venting and expressing our opinion's on something that directly affects us.

Viisari

09-07-2011, 03:24 AM

The answer is i dont play other toons i play fvs for anything short of shourd running because they move quickly.

So you play a favored soul solely because of their speed? Then roll a barb, monk or a ranger or any combination of them and you won't have anything to whine about.

dragon2fire

09-07-2011, 06:08 AM

So you play a favored soul solely because of their speed? Then roll a barb, monk or a ranger or any combination of them and you won't have anything to whine about.

Bs those other things are not casters and they do not keep a party going.

Aaxeyu

09-07-2011, 06:10 AM

Bs those other things are not casters and they do not keep a party going.

So basicly you play FvS because they are overpowerd?

dragon2fire

09-07-2011, 06:16 AM

So basicly you play FvS because they are overpowerd?

I play a healer cause i hate waiting on heals. I play and i might add paid for fvs because they move quickly.

~sumptingwong

09-07-2011, 06:25 AM

So you play a favored soul solely because of their speed? Then roll a barb, monk or a ranger or any combination of them and you won't have anything to whine about.

non of those that you listed have good self heals, and if you responded Oh yea Monks do, then you have to be human and dump points into heal amp (12 or so for it to matter), or be a halfling and have very high Ac which at end game Ac is next to pointless because very very few can get the Ac high enough. Compared to A FavoredSoul that actually is meant for healing the others do not have very good self heals at all, besides pots, Cure Serious Wounds, and Fists of Light.

~sumptingwong

09-07-2011, 06:27 AM

So basicly you play FvS because they are overpowerd?

If Favored Souls were Over powered and that is the only reason he plays them then he is a not very good player, (I never said he actually is though, he said he plays them because he hates waiting for heals) unless he also plays them because of the roll he fulfills.

~sumptingwong

09-07-2011, 06:29 AM

Bs those other things are not casters and they do not keep a party going.

/signed, Never seen a all barb, fighter, or paladin shroud/Vod/Hound. As well as only casters have solo'd or two manned echrono. And only Casters have also solo'd or two manned ToD.

dragon2fire

09-07-2011, 06:30 AM

If Favored Souls were Over powered and that is the only reason he plays them then he is a not very good player, (I never said he actually is though, he said he plays them because he hates waiting for heals) unless he also plays them because of the roll he fulfills.

Basically i look at fvs as the oil that keeps the engine moving. For the record maybe fvs are op if so i can name other classes that are to. My sorc is way more op when leveling them fvs would ever dream of being that is just a fact.

Viisari

09-07-2011, 06:46 AM

/signed, Never seen a all barb, fighter, or paladin shroud/Vod/Hound. As well as only casters have solo'd or two manned echrono. And only Casters have also solo'd or two manned ToD.

VoD has been soloed by fighters, Shroud has been done on elite by a melee group, epic raids have been done BYOH -style, your point is..? What? Casters are and have been for a long time more powerful than most other classes or multiclasses, old news. All caster parties are much more cookiecutters than all melee parties though, so you see them do stuff more often.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with movement speed.

And healers are only required for raids and some epics, you guys are overvaluing yourselves, you will also need a tank for most raids if you want them done, and for epics you're very likely to need an arcane caster, and in both cases those two are equally, if not more important for the completion.

Especially with epics, if you have a good caster there a ******** monkey can keep the party healed. If you have a bad caster then your whole group is likely to wipe unless it's one of the very easy epics.

In other cases, healers merely make things easier, and I appreciate that, but really now, a machine has many parts, and a healer is merely one gear there with the others.

~sumptingwong

09-07-2011, 06:56 AM

VoD has been soloed by fighters, Shroud has been done on elite by a melee group, epic raids have been done BYOH -style, your point is..? What? Casters are and have been for a long time more powerful than most other classes or multiclasses, old news. All caster parties are much more cookiecutters than all melee parties though, so you see them do stuff more often.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with movement speed.

And healers are only required for raids and some epics, you guys are overvaluing yourselves, you will also need a tank for most raids if you want them done, and for epics you're very likely to need an arcane caster, and in both cases those two are equally, if not more important for the completion.

Especially with epics, if you have a good caster there a ******** monkey can keep the party healed. If you have a bad caster then your whole group is likely to wipe unless it's one of the very easy epics.

In other cases, healers merely make things easier, and I appreciate that, but really now, a machine has many parts, and a healer is merely one gear there with the others.

Never seen it come on the forums, post me a link. And my point is that Casters Are the most frequent soloers at end game. Thought I would have gave a few examples to prevent you from quoting me again so I feel like I can stop posting on the thread saying, "Favored Souls are not OP'd cause they aren't." Every class should be nerfed then and given the same abilities, then nothing will be OP'd!

~sumptingwong

09-07-2011, 07:02 AM

Viisari

09-07-2011, 07:10 AM

I took my own labor in finding the link and VoD normal has been solo'd by one fighter, and the "All elite Melee VoD" had one cleric in it with zero sp at the end. Good to know, More Casters have solo'd end game material and are better at it then melee and specialist.

Nobody was speaking about elite vod, read the post again...

And yes, it is quite well known that casters are far better at soloing stuff than melees are, what does that have to do with this topic, other than that wings certainly don't make soloing harder for favored souls? If anything, it speaks in favor of nerfing wings, not against it.

Aaxeyu

09-07-2011, 09:19 AM

And yes, it is quite well known that casters are far better at soloing stuff than melees are, what does that have to do with this topic, other than that wings certainly don't make soloing harder for favored souls? If anything, it speaks in favor of nerfing wings, not against it.

Just like all their other arguments. It's obvious that they just want to keep their wings because they infact are overpowered. I mean, it's the "anti wing-nerf" crowd that makes some of the best argument for why wings shoul be nerfed.
Very funny to watch though :)

natedogg729

09-07-2011, 10:45 AM

So you play a favored soul solely because of their speed? Then roll a barb, monk or a ranger or any combination of them and you won't have anything to whine about.

I have all of the above, but I still prefer my FvS mostly due to the fact that she is self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank. Yes if need be she can sustain a party at the cost of not doing DPS, that I can live with.

I still have to agree with the Blarg on this one, the change to LoF should not be implemented on the live servers, it is a large game changer for those of us that got the 2,500 Total Favor or paid real money to play FvS, THEN on top of that had to level them up to 17 before they even had LoF. imho that is a lot of work just to get it nerfed.

Aaxeyu

09-07-2011, 10:51 AM

I have all of the above, but I still prefer my FvS mostly due to the fact that she is self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank. Yes if need be she can sustain a party at the cost of not doing DPS, that I can live with.

I still have to agree with the Blarg on this one, the change to LoF should not be implemented on the live servers, it is a large game changer for those of us that got the 2,500 Total Favor or paid real money to play FvS, THEN on top of that had to level them up to 17 before they even had LoF. imho that is a lot of work just to get it nerfed.

You still have your wings, only a balanced version of them, and you still are "self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank".
If yóu like you FvS "mostly due to the fact that she is self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank" then the wing nerf shouldn't be a big deal, and saying that you have now wasted your real money and wasted time to level her to 17 is absolutely ridiculous.

junta74

09-07-2011, 11:50 AM

I have all of the above, but I still prefer my FvS mostly due to the fact that she is self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank. Yes if need be she can sustain a party at the cost of not doing DPS, that I can live with.

I still have to agree with the Blarg on this one, the change to LoF should not be implemented on the live servers, it is a large game changer for those of us that got the 2,500 Total Favor or paid real money to play FvS, THEN on top of that had to level them up to 17 before they even had LoF. imho that is a lot of work just to get it nerfed.

You make a valid point that you bought the FvS for the wings and now they are nerfed. This is a valid point for which you should seek a refund. Tell us how that goes.

Hobgoblin

09-07-2011, 11:59 AM

I took my own labor in finding the link and VoD normal has been solo'd by one fighter, and the "All elite Melee VoD" had one cleric in it with zero sp at the end. Good to know, More Casters have solo'd end game material and are better at it then melee and specialist.

lets see off the top of my head: phresh from aok soloed norm vod at level 16, then elite vod when he was 20, a fighter did it, yes a fvs did it, an aa did it, and i didnt post it cause i didnt think it was that special, but got a bad lag spike in vod, all 3 clerics went down, chaos insued, people started dropping left and right, insults were flying, everyone died cept for my pale master, and i took sulu down from half to dead.

hob

Stanley_Nicholas

09-07-2011, 12:36 PM

Those of you claiming that casters, and FvS specifically (but NOT exclusively) are OP because they can solo quests and raids - you're forgetting something. Turbine has been actively promoting and trying to increase the soloability of DDO ever since it went f2p. The fact that it's significantly harder for melees to do is just a reflection of the power of self healing, combined with the ability to do significant damage in an AOE or at range. And assuming they haven't changed their mind about providing soloers a viable way to play, that probably means they ought to look at ways of making it a touch easier for melees to do. I expect that doing something to fix AC would go a long way in this regard.

I don't recall ever seeing any devs post that soloing quests is awesome and a desirable option, but an occasional person soloing a raid will bring forth their wrath and the full power of the nerf bat. Of all the *extreme minority* of players who have soloed a raid other than Reaver, I don't think you'll find a single one who claims it was "easy", or "efficient", or who is actually doing it on a regular basis. They do it once for the bragging rights, and at great expense. Grouping is still a far, far, far easier, faster, cheaper, more successful way of completing any raid, no matter what your race or class or build or level of player skill. There is nothing at all unbalancing here.

pHo3nix

09-07-2011, 12:40 PM

I dont have a favored soul so I havent read any wings threads till now. Something about the title drew me in because I wanted to know what the "big deal" was. After reading the OP's plea, It doesnt seem like that big a deal to me but I got to wonder...If the wings are so great,, how do you deal with playing your other non FS toons? It must be like that feeling you get after TR, when your moving around in your 5% striders but you have that contrast all the time , every time you play another toon. I suspect you'll adapt.

When i play my non-fvs toons (except my monk, she's fast enough :)) i always wish i had wings, cause even haste seems too slow..Nonetheless i still play my non-fvs toons and have fun, cause they are different and i would find it boring to have 5 fvs :)

Some people still think that all classes should be equal and well balanced, failing to realize that if this happened it would lead to a boring and monotonous game.

There are so many people still playing D&D 3.5 or pathfinder and find them fun even if they are so unbalanced after the mid levels. Why? Cause balance doesn't necessary mean fun.

Wings nerf will go live, nothing can stop it, but people can still complain and explain why they think it's bad :)

natedogg729

09-07-2011, 12:40 PM

You make a valid point that you bought the FvS for the wings and now they are nerfed. This is a valid point for which you should seek a refund. Tell us how that goes.

I did not buy it, I worked hard to get the favor to unlock it.

Flugzeug

09-07-2011, 04:02 PM

Wings nerf will go live, nothing can stop it, but people can still complain and explain why they think it's bad :)

While it may be true that it could go live, there are many things that could stop it. Look back just 6 weeks and you'll see some changes that were planned for Update 10, patch 1 and patch 2, that were changed.

Even the wing nerf itself has changed in the past 2 weeks. Turbine saw everyone complaining and they changed the recharge rate in town.

So I think it's quite possible that Turbine could realize that the nerf they have planned is absurd. The perfect nerf: having raid bosses use an anti-wing spell/ability that prevents wings from being used.....would be much better.

However, even though I think it's possible they could change their minds, I think it is unlikely unless even more people speak out about it. For this reason, I skipped this past weekend's double bonus point weekend. This was the first time I have ever skipped this promotion the 6-7 times it has come around since I started playing the game. Once, in June of 2010, I bought two separate 6900 pt bundles in the same weekend. It's hard to believe that I skipped the promotion since it's always a must-buy for me since I do like spending points on hearts of wood and adventure packs and sometimes tomes.

It also compelled me to start playing other games, which I haven't done since I started playing DDO. On occasion I would play through other games, but I wouldn't give up DDO 100% to play other games. So we'll see what happens once update 11 comes out. Either way, I'm fine with things. They change the nerf and I'm happy playing DDO, or they don't change the nerf and I'm happy playing other games and getting more exercise and enjoying newfound free-time that I haven't had in 18 months.

dragon2fire

09-07-2011, 04:07 PM

While it may be true that it could go live, there are many things that could stop it. Look back just 6 weeks and you'll see some changes that were planned for Update 10, patch 1 and patch 2, that were changed.

Even the wing nerf itself has changed in the past 2 weeks. Turbine saw everyone complaining and they changed the recharge rate in town.

So I think it's quite possible that Turbine could realize that the nerf they have planned is absurd. The perfect nerf: having raid bosses use an anti-wing spell/ability that prevents wings from being used.....would be much better.

However, even though I think it's possible they could change their minds, I think it is unlikely unless even more people speak out about it. For this reason, I skipped this past weekend's double bonus point weekend. This was the first time I have ever skipped this promotion the 6-7 times it has come around since I started playing the game. Once, in June of 2010, I bought two separate 6900 pt bundles in the same weekend. It's hard to believe that I skipped the promotion since it's always a must-buy for me since I do like spending points on hearts of wood and adventure packs and sometimes tomes.

It also compelled me to start playing other games, which I haven't done since I started playing DDO. On occasion I would play through other games, but I wouldn't give up DDO 100% to play other games. So we'll see what happens once update 11 comes out. Either way, I'm fine with things. They change the nerf and I'm happy playing DDO, or they don't change the nerf and I'm happy playing other games and getting more exercise and enjoying newfound free-time that I haven't had in 18 months.

Spot on and hey same here i also did not buy points this weekend even though they where on sale if they dont change there minds on the wings well no more money form me.

BlargneyTheSecond

09-07-2011, 04:11 PM

After reading the OP's plea, It doesnt seem like that big a deal to me but I got to wonder...If the wings are so great,, how do you deal with playing your other non FS toons? It must be like that feeling you get after TR, when your moving around in your 5% striders but you have that contrast all the time , every time you play another toon. I suspect you'll adapt.
That's a good question, xberto. :)

Short answer: I still bust out my ranger and (more frequently) my monk every once in a while. I can't stand the other slowpokes anymore. They really do all feel like those newborn TRs. They don't mesh with my preferred playstyle.

Slightly longer different answer: my fvs is my favourite character. I like to play him because I can get more done in the same amount of time. A huge part of that is the wings, as I've already discussed. The other part is the effect that my presence has in an LFM. When there's a healer in the party, LFMs fill much quicker. Consequently, I spend less time waiting for groups to fill. Win!

This proposed change screws with the way the class plays to a huge degree. Currently, to *almost* keep up with a sprint boosting melee for one of their boosts, I can use 6-7 wings in a row. If someone else wanders off by themselves and gets into trouble, right now I can pop a few wings to prop them up with a heal then catch up to the rest with a few more wings. I can't force players to stick together, but currently at least I have the option to help patch up their mistakes quickly. The new charges cap will shoot all that in the head. I don't want to be a slowpoke healbot, that's why I erased my cleric (before TRs). Not to mention how much more of a slog it will be farming or bypassing non-challenging low-level content. Grinding already sucks. Grinding with wing clip will be life-draining.

Re: "You'll adapt." Sure, life will go on if this change goes live. The form of that adaptation is yet to be decided.
a) I might accept it and continue playing my fvs (I honestly doubt it),
b) I might be angry and continue playing my fvs (unlikely, I'm not that kind of stupid),
c) I might continue playing but cease playing favoured souls,
d) or I might cease playing DDO.
They're diddling with the favourite part of my favourite character. It's a core component of my playstyle. Unfettered wing use provides me with options, and a real depth of gameplay to explore. It's a broad and interesting landscape that can hold my interest for a very long time. From my experience on Lamannia, the wing clip takes the fvs into the shallow and uninteresting end of the pool. That doesn't bode well for my continued interest in playing this game.

I like DDO and I want to continue paying and playing. I know myself well enough to know that this singular change is enough to jeopardize my continued enjoyment of this game. I'd rather speak out against it now than let wing clipping wither my interest. Devs, please don't take the charges mechanic to live.
-blarg

dragon2fire

09-07-2011, 04:17 PM

That's a good question, xberto. :)

Short answer: I still bust out my ranger and (more frequently) my monk every once in a while. I can't stand the other slowpokes anymore. They really do all feel like those newborn TRs. They don't mesh with my preferred playstyle.

Slightly longer different answer: my fvs is my favourite character. I like to play him because I can get more done in the same amount of time. A huge part of that is the wings, as I've already discussed. The other part is the effect that my presence has in an LFM. When there's a healer in the party, LFMs fill much quicker. Consequently, I spend less time waiting for groups to fill. Win!

This proposed change screws with the way the class plays to a huge degree. Currently, to *almost* keep up with a sprint boosting melee for one of their boosts, I can use 6-7 wings in a row. If someone else wanders off by themselves and gets into trouble, right now I can pop a few wings to prop them up with a heal then catch up to the rest with a few more wings. I can't force players to stick together, but currently at least I have the option to help patch up their mistakes quickly. The new charges cap will shoot all that in the head. I don't want to be a slowpoke healbot, that's why I erased my cleric (before TRs). Not to mention how much more of a slog it will be farming or bypassing non-challenging low-level content. Grinding already sucks. Grinding with wing clip will be life-draining.

Re: "You'll adapt." Sure, life will go on if this change goes live. The form of that adaptation is yet to be decided.
a) I might accept it and continue playing my fvs (I honestly doubt it),
b) I might be angry and continue playing my fvs (unlikely, I'm not that kind of stupid),
c) I might continue playing but cease playing favoured souls,
d) or I might cease playing DDO.
They're diddling with the favourite part of my favourite character. It's a core component of my playstyle. Unfettered wing use provides me with options, and a real depth of gameplay to explore. It's a broad and interesting landscape that can hold my interest for a very long time. From my experience on Lamannia, the wing clip takes the fvs into the shallow and uninteresting end of the pool. That doesn't bode well for my continued interest in playing this game.

I like DDO and I want to continue paying and playing. I know myself well enough to know that this singular change is enough to jeopardize my continued enjoyment of this game. I'd rather speak out against it now than let wing clipping wither my interest. Devs, please don't take the charges mechanic to live.
-blarg

You really just summed up my thoughts very nicely thank you.

Flugzeug

09-07-2011, 04:30 PM

You still have your wings, only a balanced version of them, and you still are "self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank".

If they were unbalanced before, they are still unbalanced. The charge thing really does not affect much. (my opinion is they were balanced before and are balanced now, regardless of this change).

Rumor has it that favored souls could complete the new raid easier because of the wings. A reason was given that favored souls were deforming the raid-space. Well, for 2 years favored souls have not been ruining raids or making them less fun in any way. So I'm not sure what's going on here. Even with esos, epic claw set, epic chrono set (3pc) my lvl 20 melee fvs (strength of 36) still does less damage than my guildmate's level 17 rogue with generic DR breakers. We were comparing numbers in an Elite VoD that we were doing. I'm sure I do less damage than other melee classes as well. So the nerf to these wings, well, the reason doesn't fit and if the new raid is the reason this has changed then that is what should be changed. Make the new raid a no-wings zone.

As for the nerf itself, yes, it's a minor nerf and affects things much less than other nerfs or each of the numerous bugs that monks have had to endure. You know, I didn't quit DDO even when my monk was gimp with update 9. That was much worse. +5 handwraps didn't add +5 to attack and damage. That was bad for epics. Well, I stopped playing my monk but because it was a mistake and Turbine planned on fixing it I stuck with DDO. The wing nerf is another mistake, but if Turbine doesn't plan on fixing it, I will leave. That's the difference. Something that will be fixed versus something that won't be fixed. It's more about principle/idea/purpose than it is the nerf itself. It's rather frustrating for something to be nerfed that isn't the cause of unbalance....I could name a few other things that should be nerfed more so than wings..but that's another topic another day.

Chai

09-07-2011, 04:56 PM

You still have your wings, only a balanced version of them, and you still are "self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank".
If yóu like you FvS "mostly due to the fact that she is self-sustaining, buffing, and still a fairly good DPS/AC intimitank" then the wing nerf shouldn't be a big deal, and saying that you have now wasted your real money and wasted time to level her to 17 is absolutely ridiculous.

You still have your khopesh, only a balanced version of them, and you are still steamrolling epics on melee toons. FvS soloing raids shouldnt be a big deal. Saying melee will never be needed in groups anymore and they are useless due to the power of FvS and casters is absolutely ridiculous. :p

Double edged sword bud. Why change your tune now?

Un-necessary nerf is un-necessary. It doesnt really change the scope of what a FvS can and cannot do. It does change the scope of how fun the class is to play however...

I also notice a pattern starting to form here. Monk gets nerfed when FvS is implemented. FvS gets nerfed when Artificer is implemented. Artificer gets nerfed when Druid is implemented? Stay tuned, heh.

Viisari

09-07-2011, 05:09 PM

Saying melee will never be needed in groups anymore and they are useless due to the power of FvS and casters is absolutely ridiculous..

Heh, I've been running epics all night now with a mostly caster group, and it's basically been a playground for casters with the melees watching them destroy everything.

Melees are not needed for anything anymore, and that's a reality of the game now.

Chai

09-07-2011, 05:15 PM

Heh, I've been running epics all night now with a mostly caster group, and it's basically been a playground for casters with the melees watching them destroy everything.

Melees are not needed for anything anymore, and that's a reality of the game now.

Casters were soloing epics since there were epics in the game. This does not mean melee isnt needed anymore. If thats how you interpret the situation, then melee werent needed in the first place, for the entire duration this game has existed. Casters have been able to beat all quest content, and every raid in the game either solo, or with multiple casters.

Meanwhile, in other news, we still faceroll epics daily on our melee toons.

Film at 11.

Viisari

09-07-2011, 05:21 PM

Casters were soloing epics since there were epics in the game. This does not mean melee isnt needed anymore. If thats how you interpret the situation, then melee werent needed in the first place, for the entire duration this game has existed.

Meanwhile, in other news, we still faceroll epics daily on our melee toons.

Film at 11.

Melees are not anywhere near capable of doing the same degree of facerolling casters are now in epics. Yes melee parties are all fine and good and I doubt anyone has ever said otherwise, but if there's a few good casters in the group the melees become completely irrelevant in that group and they might aswell pike in the corner, no one in the party will even notice that.

Because that's exactly what's been happening in lots of epic groups I've been running in lately.

<edit> The fact that casters have been able to solo things since forever is irrelevant, because it was never efficient. Pre U9 it was efficient to take a bunch of melees in epics with a healer and a caster, but past U9 the melees have been meaningless because casters will perform better in pretty much every circumstance. It's about efficiency, not about who can do and what solo, and right now, the most efficient strategy is to fill your party with casters, thus melees are useless.

If you deny this, then all I can conclude is that you and I play on truly different levels of play. Using pug groups as an estimation of something has never been a good idea.

Chai

09-07-2011, 05:51 PM

Melees are not anywhere near capable of doing the same degree of facerolling casters are now in epics. Yes melee parties are all fine and good and I doubt anyone has ever said otherwise, but if there's a few good casters in the group the melees become completely irrelevant in that group and they might aswell pike in the corner, no one in the party will even notice that.

Because that's exactly what's been happening in lots of epic groups I've been running in lately.

<edit> The fact that casters have been able to solo things since forever is irrelevant, because it was never efficient. Pre U9 it was efficient to take a bunch of melees in epics with a healer, but past U9 the melees have been meaningles because casters will perform better in pretty much every circumstance. It's about efficiency, not about who can do and what, and right now, the most efficient strategy is to fill your party with casters, thus melees are useless.

If you deny this, then all I can conclude is that you and I play on truly different levels of play. Using pug groups as an estimation of something has never been a good idea.

Sorry, its not irrelevant that casters have been able to solo stuff since day one, because crit fishing with firewalls was alot more efficient than what we have now. I could drag 1/3 of the entirety of the quests mobs to a kill zone and burn em all down with a couple firewalls in epics. Outside of epics it took one firewall to roast em all.

Its not irrelevant simply because you disagree with me. Saying melee isnt needed anymore is hilarious, because using that same logic and same qualifications, melee was never needed.

Yet they are still played, and are still the majority of what gets invited to groups.

I also find it hilarious that the caster crowd screamed for buffs for a long time, not for melee nerfs, while the melee crowd screams for caster nerfs. LOL. Nerfs arent the answer. Be careful what you wish for, because when it happens, it usually ends up being worse than what we started with, and the same people who asked for the nerfs are the same ones complaining about them.

voodoogroves

09-07-2011, 06:19 PM

Yet they are still played, and are still the majority of what gets invited to groups.
There's what the top players can do, then there's the more public metagame.

Turbine does need to balance both.

In the closed groups of highly optimized folks - anyone can steamroll anything - and only those groups really notice the caster-based ones are going faster. I've found a few fun folks lately PUGGING and we've hit a few no-healer, no-caster epics. Probably some of the easier ones, but seriously - it can be done.

On the other hand I was on my FVS earlier and, swear to god, got declined from a Big Top. Had a sorc, a barb and a cleric. I sent the dude a tell and he was real nice and said "are you heals or DPS" and we started a little conversation where basically he believed even with AoV and DP a Favored Soul could not possibly be DPS on par with a melee. He was an officer in one of the mid-high guilds on my server (my little guild is sub-50, this was one of those in the high 50s or 60s - forget) and it's a guild I know has some solid folks in there. He politely explained to me that he and plenty of others had done the math and, because of that, was going to decline and wait for real DPS.

He was a nice guy. Really polite. I was astounded. I'm not the kind of guy that says "But ... but ... you'll take my gimpy drow finesse rogue sight unseen but you won't take my FVS because it's not enough DPS?" I know this is true because I switched toons and joined his group without telling him I was the same guy. Really nice player. Really nice.

It'd be funny if it was just one time, but a few days ago, the same thing happened only I (on my Wizard) and the FVS managed to convince the leader to take the other FVSs, and we completed (as you might guess) very quickly.

There's a rogue on Ghallanda who's bio reads something like "I have 8 epic items and more HP than a first life Barb, have solo'd a bajillion quests, am wearing red scale, etc. etc. but I still won't get into that Shroud PUG"

I totally can comprehend how some players who are clearly more skilled and twitch-capable than I can abuse wings to pull off stunts the rest of us can't ... but a second divine still isn't guaranteed a spot in a Big Top epic PUG because they are not DPS.

Viisari

09-07-2011, 06:27 PM

Sorry, its not irrelevant that casters have been able to solo stuff since day one, because crit fishing with firewalls was alot more efficient than what we have now. I could drag 1/3 of the entirety of the quests mobs to a kill zone and burn em all down with a couple firewalls in epics. Outside of epics it took one firewall to roast em all.

Its not irrelevant simply because you disagree with me. Saying melee isnt needed anymore is hilarious, because using that same logic and same qualifications, melee was never needed.

Yet they are still played, and are still the majority of what gets invited to groups.

I also find it hilarious that the caster crowd screamed for buffs for a long time, not for melee nerfs, while the melee crowd screams for caster nerfs. LOL. Nerfs arent the answer. Be careful what you wish for, because when it happens, it usually ends up being worse than what we started with, and the same people who asked for the nerfs are the same ones complaining about them.

All of this should be painfully obvious to anyone with any endgame experience, but let's get this straigth anyway.

The fact that casters can solo endgame stuff is *ONLY* relevant when scroll farming. That's it.

If you want completions, you don't solo, it's always slower to solo than do things with a good group. Pre U9 the standard epic party was 4 melee dps, a cc caster and and a healer.

The reason for this was mainly deathward, and partly because casters didn't have any good ways to deal sustained boss dps. All of this changed with U9 when the deathward was removed and dot spells were added to the game along with the elemental savants. Pre U9 melees were relevant ONLY because of epic mob deathward and unsustainable caster dps.

But none of those apply anymore, deathward is gone and casters have good sustainable boss dps, savants have excellent sustainable boss dps. This affected raids too, because dmg/sp -ratio for casters went up. A lot.

Yes pre U9 casters could do epics without melees, but because of autocrit it was better and faster to just hold stuff and let the melees beat them up. And now hold effects damage spells too.

With all of this in mind, it is VERY clear that melees have indeed become completely useless. It is also very clear why you don't see full caster groups often (you do see them though, just yesterday I joined eDQ1 that was full of casters and was only looking for casters): majority of the classes in this game are melee classes, so there are more melee toons in this game than there are casters. And for every good caster there are ten good melees. It's very simple really. Add to this that many pugs still think that casters are bad dps, and the result is lots of pug groups looking for just that one caster.

You can't conclude that melees were always as useless as they are now, because things are completely different now from what they were pre U9.

I don't know if you're just trolling or truly blind or whatever, but these are not really opinions, they are the state of the endgame right now. U9 removed the restrictions casters had in epics and added the means to deal sustainable boss dps, it is these things that made melees useless. I don't give a **** about soloing because that's not how you get your epic gear (excluding scrolls, and yeah I've soloed stuff for kicks), you get your epic gear by completing the quests in a group, and right now the only reason to take melees in those groups is because you don't want to wait for a full caster group.

<edit> Oh, and dots need a "nerf", they need a fortitude save for half damage which I suspect will come in U12. Probably the only reason it wasn't in U11 was all this whining about wings, nerfing DP at the same time would probably have led into mass suicides or something by all these favored souls.

TheDoctor

09-07-2011, 06:41 PM

This is just another nerf designed to change our focus onto some other part of the game *Hmm let me think...Artificers??* or *Stuff from the DDO Store??*

This game for Turbine is about making money, Never forget that. Our enjoyment is secondary.

There is a long list of disappointments in my heart about this game but complaining usually gets me silenced or deleted.

I say don't read the forum and be happy.

Fomori

09-07-2011, 08:19 PM

I did not buy it, I worked hard to get the favor to unlock it.
Lets not kid ourselves. There is zero HARD WORK that goes into getting favor. Favor equals doing various quests on various difficulty levels which simply equals time sink. If you said 'I spent a lot of time' then yeah, I agree 100%, but please dont insult people that actually do "hard work", by cheapening that term.

~sumptingwong

09-07-2011, 08:54 PM

Rheebus

09-07-2011, 09:12 PM

I've always been sad seeing FvS flying around the marketplace while my monk is limited to just a few Abundant Steps until I am completely out of ki -- in public areas where I can't regen ki quickly. I am not sure what the ability to get from A to B much faster than others in public areas is worth, but the FvS is already a very powerful class and doesn't need unlimited public leaps to lure players to it.

The other way I think this could be solved is by making it actually cost prohibitive to use in terms of mana. Make it cost 20sp. Folks won't use it just to get from A to B quicker in quests anymore. I am sure this has already been mentioned in the thread, but I just can't read any more of the posts...

Its a change that some people hate and some people think is good. IF the Devs see all the FvS disappear as a result, things will change again.

Fomori

09-07-2011, 09:24 PM

Since the nerf is happening the "OP" will go away so you might as well stop posting on the thread then just so you can feel smart, hope you guys have fun not getting anymore free flagging for ToD as well as Elite Favor Runs in amrath or free end chests to pull mats for boots or larges. My Favored Soul only can do it mana pot free with the wings but it doesn't matter anymore. Guess will have to drink pots to help others now. Thank you for supporting the nerf guys, really appreciate it and the people I helped/help probably do as well.
*yawn*

Cool story bro...

If you really think that people only rode coattails to get completions then you need to learn to the play the real game. Healers are only NEEDED in the several raids/epics in game where damage output is so great you cannot survive more than several seconds without healing support. Also that is "healers", that means clerics/bards/umd/splashes/fvs/etc. Some are more efficient than others but thats the beauty of DDO, we dont have to be cookie cutter to succeed.

Perhaps you are simply saying that the wing nerf nerfs less skilled players, and that you group regularly with said less skilled players. In that case then I apologize for calling you out because it seemed like you thought you were important.

Chai

09-08-2011, 07:40 AM

All of this should be painfully obvious to anyone with any endgame experience, but let's get this straigth anyway.

The fact that casters can solo endgame stuff is *ONLY* relevant when scroll farming. That's it.

While you may think only the stuff optimized endgamers are interested in is relevant, you are incorrect. The entire game is relevant.

If you want completions, you don't solo, it's always slower to solo than do things with a good group. Pre U9 the standard epic party was 4 melee dps, a cc caster and and a healer.

This is also incorrect. The good soloers get stuff done faster in this game many times than a full group would.

The reason for this was mainly deathward, and partly because casters didn't have any good ways to deal sustained boss dps. All of this changed with U9 when the deathward was removed and dot spells were added to the game along with the elemental savants. Pre U9 melees were relevant ONLY because of epic mob deathward and unsustainable caster dps.

Melee is relevant in all case scenarios. Second best option =/= irrelevant.

But none of those apply anymore, deathward is gone and casters have good sustainable boss dps, savants have excellent sustainable boss dps. This affected raids too, because dmg/sp -ratio for casters went up. A lot.

Yes pre U9 casters could do epics without melees, but because of autocrit it was better and faster to just hold stuff and let the melees beat them up. And now hold effects damage spells too.

Casters gain power and now all of a sudden.....

With all of this in mind, it is VERY clear that melees have indeed become completely useless.

Incorrect. Maybe you Ricky Bobby, have been taught that if you aint first, yer last, but the rest of us clearly understand that second best option =/= completely useless.

It is also very clear why you don't see full caster groups often (you do see them though, just yesterday I joined eDQ1 that was full of casters and was only looking for casters): majority of the classes in this game are melee classes, so there are more melee toons in this game than there are casters. And for every good caster there are ten good melees. It's very simple really. Add to this that many pugs still think that casters are bad dps, and the result is lots of pug groups looking for just that one caster.

It has nothing to do with how many classes are inthe game. It has to do with the fact that most dont share your extreme opinion that if some other class can outDPS yours, that makes you completely useless. You are bantering the extremist stance here and telling us its correct for everyone.

You can't conclude that melees were always as useless as they are now, because things are completely different now from what they were pre U9.

I can using your logic, because casters were always better than melee in 97% of all content. The only place melee were relevant (your logic) is boss DPS. Everywhere else casters owned. Then epics came along, and players whose mains were melee were perfectly satisfied to have casters play slave to having a CC DC of 40 or dont join groups. Now that they are worth more than that, this all of a sudden translates to "melee is useless"? Im afraid not.

I don't know if you're just trolling or truly blind or whatever, but these are not really opinions, they are the state of the endgame right now.

Train stops again. These kinds of statements made toward those who disagree with you clearly do indicate something, but its not what you think they indicate.

U9 removed the restrictions casters had in epics and added the means to deal sustainable boss dps, it is these things that made melees useless. I don't give a **** about soloing because that's not how you get your epic gear (excluding scrolls, and yeah I've soloed stuff for kicks), you get your epic gear by completing the quests in a group, and right now the only reason to take melees in those groups is because you don't want to wait for a full caster group.

<edit> Oh, and dots need a "nerf", they need a fortitude save for half damage which I suspect will come in U12. Probably the only reason it wasn't in U11 was all this whining about wings, nerfing DP at the same time would probably have led into mass suicides or something by all these favored souls.

Of course, you realize here that you just said everything that youre not interested in "needs a nerf", along with everything that is better boss DPS than melee needs a nerf. I dont agree with you. Nerfs arent the answer. Nerfing everyone else who outperforms you isnt the answer. Saying something is useless because its second best numberwise isnt evidence, its overexageration. People arent trolling simply because they disagree with you. People who play the game differently than you arent irrelevant. Your statements that your vision of the game is the only correct vision and everyone else is blind or trolling smacks of oberoni, lock stock and two smoking barrels.

Now lets all go roll up some water savants, because apparently everything else is useless. :p

Viisari

09-08-2011, 08:20 AM

Of course, you realize here that you just said everything that youre not interested in "needs a nerf", along with everything that is better boss DPS than melee needs a nerf. I dont agree with you.

Not interested in? My main is a wizard, and I abuse the **** out of dots atm, they are way too strong and require a fortitude save for half damage. This will also make blob builds useless like they should be, when you can base your build on just one spell something is clearly broken.

I advocate for general game balance, sometimes that calls for nerfs and sometimes that calls for buffs, that's a simple fact. A game like this cannot survive without changing constantly with new content and balancing old things, and you can't change things by just buffing stuff constantly, because that path is way more dangerous than nerfing is. There has to be a balance between nerfs and buffs, both have their places, but you seem to think nerfing as always bad which I find very strange.

This is also incorrect. The good soloers get stuff done faster in this game many times than a full group would.

Funny how I don't see any solo speed runs done then, for some strange reasons all speed runs seem to be done in groups with excellent players. Stop playing with noobs and go try questing with some good players maybe? It's simply not possible for one person to do things as fast as a good group can, even when taking dungeon scaling into account, a good group will *ALWAYS* beat a good soloer in time AND efficiency.

<edit> Unless you're specificly refering to noob groups that have no clue about anything, which makes the whole comparison even more silly. Compare players and groups of equal skill.

And yes, melees can get stuff done, but the thing is, casters will do that stuff better and faster and are likely to be self-sufficient, thus given the choice of taking another good caster or another good melee into your party the caster will almost always be a better choice. You don't think that's broken at all? There are a few, very specific roles left that *might* require melees (they've been done by casters...), but like for every rule, those are the exceptions.

When I see barbs with pretty much all the gear you can have in this game start piking in epics because they feel like they're useless and not needed, I do indeed start thinking that maybe something isn't right, and maybe something might need changing.

pHo3nix

09-08-2011, 08:28 AM

Melee is relevant in all case scenarios. Second best option =/= irrelevant.

^This.

Not the best =/= useless, otherwise why would people roll non-wf casters or non-horc melees?

As long as A can complete anyway, who cares if B is better than A? :)

I think a lot of melees are getting mad cause they are no more the kings in epic, so they are more than happy when casters get nerfed, in the hope they will be very important again. Just play and have fun, the same mass hold + beat down strategy that worked pre u9 is still doable, just find a caster who's willing to be your slave for some quests :)

Chai

09-08-2011, 09:31 AM

Not interested in? My main is a wizard, and I abuse the **** out of dots atm, they are way too strong and require a fortitude save for half damage. This will also make blob builds useless like they should be, when you can base your build on just one spell something is clearly broken.

Oberoni.

I advocate for general game balance, sometimes that calls for nerfs and sometimes that calls for buffs, that's a simple fact. A game like this cannot survive without changing constantly with new content and balancing old things, and you can't change things by just buffing stuff constantly, because that path is way more dangerous than nerfing is. There has to be a balance between nerfs and buffs, both have their places, but you seem to think nerfing as always bad which I find very strange.

D&D is not a balanced game. Every attempt I have ever seen to balance it has thrown it further out of balance. When they nerf wings FvS will learn to tank. What then? Nerf DOTs? Oh yeah, youre already on that train - nerf it to oblivion in the name of "game balance". I dont agree.

Funny how I don't see any solo speed runs done then, for some strange reasons all speed runs seem to be done in groups with excellent players. Stop playing with noobs and go try questing with some good players maybe? It's simply not possible for one person to do things as fast as a good group can, even when taking dungeon scaling into account, a good group will *ALWAYS* beat a good soloer in time AND efficiency.

Not possible in the 2% of all content you claim is relevant. Possible everywhere else. If the game is three huge devils, a dragon, and a Merilith you would be correct. Since it isnt, you are not.

And yes, melees can get stuff done, but the thing is, casters will do that stuff better and faster and are likely to be self-sufficient, thus given the choice of taking another good caster or another good melee into your party the caster will almost always be a better choice. You don't think that's broken at all? There are a few, very specific roles left that *might* require melees (they've been done by casters...), but like for every rule, those are the exceptions..

I dont think melee being the second best option makes them useless. The overexagerators banter themselves into a frenzy claiming this, and I /grin each time I read it. Then they claim only a sliver of the entire game is relevant.

I dont agree that 99% of the game should be balanced on what the top end gamers are capable of.

When I see barbs with pretty much all the gear you can have in this game start piking in epics because they feel like they're useless and not needed, I do indeed start thinking that maybe something isn't right, and maybe something might need changing.

In DDO gear =/= good player. Below average player is below average. Epics are easy for everyone nowdays so if someone is piking epics, LOL. :p I know barbarians, fighters, and casters who ROFLpwn all of this content. I also know players of all of the same classes who cant hang, regardless if they are playing a caster or melee. Play quality doesnt have a class associated with it. It doesnt have gear associated with it either, because the toughest content in this game isnt even where the best gear drops. Vellah is a loot pinata, and farming DPS increasing gear is time consumption oriented, not challenging.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 09:47 AM

Not possible in the 2% of all content you claim is relevant. Possible everywhere else. If the game is three huge devils, a dragon, and a Merilith you would be correct. Since it isnt, you are not.

I believe we are playing very different games, if you truly think that then there's not much more to say here.

You did read the part about A GOOD GROUP, as in, not a group full of noobs, right?

Chai

09-08-2011, 10:01 AM

I believe we are playing very different games, if you truly think that then there's not much more to say here.

You did read the part about A GOOD GROUP, as in, not a group full of noobs, right?

Sorry, I dont buy the statement that if I dont agree with you Im somehow playing with noobs, or that Im trolling, as you have clearly tried to make a case for.

I also dont agree with nerfs to balance the game, because the end result is less balance, not more. Theres a pretty strong case to be made here as I have observed that those who ask for nerfs are the same people who complain about the end result in most cases. Sure, the "balance" of the game swings, but not the way those who supported nerfs wanted it to and the game balance becomes more extreme, not less.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 10:10 AM

Sorry, I dont buy the statement that if I dont agree with you Im somehow playing with noobs, or that Im trolling, as you have clearly tried to make a case for.

I also dont agree with nerfs to balance the game, because the end result is less balance, not more. Theres a pretty strong case to be made here as I have observed that those who ask for nerfs are the same people who complain about the end result in most cases. Sure, the "balance" of the game swings, but not the way those who supported nerfs wanted it to and the game balance becomes more extreme, not less.

Give me an example of a quest which you can complete faster solo than in a good group, there are none.

Whether you agree with nerfs or not is also irrelevant, because nerfs are necessary for the games survival, just like buffs and new content are.

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 10:15 AM

Give me an example of a quest which you can complete faster solo than in a good group, there are none.

Whether you agree with nerfs or not is also irrelevant, because nerfs are necessary for the games survival, just like buffs and new content are.

Epic Claw?

Chamber of Astrologer + Physician (Elite)

Diplomatic Impunity? Frame Work possibly?

Viisari

09-08-2011, 10:21 AM

Epic Claw?

Nope, beating the giants takes forever alone.

Chamber of Astrologer + Physician (Elite)

Not really, but even if it was true it's largely irrelevant, those quests are pretty much only run once for favor or on casual for the seals.

Diplomatic Impunity? Frame Work possibly?

lol, no.

Chai

09-08-2011, 10:32 AM

Nope, beating the giants takes forever alone.

Yet these are soloed alot. Doesnt seem to take forever to me. Heck Shades DPS challenge was based on one of the BOSS MOBS in here and it took melee (who you claim are useless) less than a few minutes to kill said boss. The other giants have far less HP. Casters crush these guys.

Not really, but even if it was true it's largely irrelevant, those quests are pretty much only run once for favor or on casual for the seals.

There you go calling everything that doesnt support your stance irrelevant again.

lol, no.

Both of those are easily soloable faster than in groups with the right class. One who understands kill zone tactics can kill just about everything in there with a couple blade barriers / firewalls. There are two really nice points to pull most of the mobs in the zone to. People in my guild call this quest "bovine university" due to the simpsons analogy of cows standing in line being ground up, heh. The AI in this game is all too happy to march right into it.

Whether you agree with nerfs or not is also irrelevant, because nerfs are necessary for the games survival, just like buffs and new content are.

Oberoni.

Splatterfart

09-08-2011, 10:33 AM

"Why the wing nerf is such a big deal."

It isn't. Get over it.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 10:38 AM

Yet these are soloed alot. We were speaking about how fast it is to solo something, not how often it is done. You can't solo eClaw faster than you can do it with a group effort.

There you go calling everything that doesnt support your stance irrelevant again.

You have to find the mummies, and if you split up as a group, you'll find them faster, yes?

Both of those are easily soloable faster than in groups with the right class. One who understands kill zone tactics can kill just about everything in there with a couple blade barriers / firewalls. There are two really nice points to pull most of the mobs in the zone to. People in my guild call this quest "bovine university" due to the simpsons analogy of cows standing in line being ground up, heh. The AI in this game is all too happy to march right into it.

Our TR group was farming frame work for xp in 2-3 min runs if I remember right, you're not going to do it faster solo.

And oh dear if you try something that is anything more than a straigth run to the end, try doing delera 4 runs in 3 minutes with full optionals and XP bonuses solo...

Doesnt seem to take forever to me. Heck Shades DPS challenge was based on one of the BOSS MOBS in here and it took melee (who you claim are useless) less than a few minutes to kill said boss. The other giants have far less HP. Casters crush these guys.

Yes, few minutes, let's see how fast any arcane caster can do it, the other giants are fodder for FoD.

At best, these are quests that can be done in the same time as with a group, you cannot do them faster than a group like you claim.

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 10:59 AM

Nope, beating the giants takes forever alone.
Eh. No. It takes very little time. I solo this daily on my wizard, and I do it pretty quickly. I'm sure others are faster.

Get a party in there and scaling makes it tougher. I've done both numerous times ... sounds like you haven't?

Not really, but even if it was true it's largely irrelevant, those quests are pretty much only run once for favor or on casual for the seals.
You don't hit those at 1k/minute on your characters? I sure do. Alone ... 1 minute ... with a full group ... scaling and DA prevents this time frame. Period.

Finding the mummies is SIMPLE. Bringing people in scales the DA.

So ... you've not tested this? Just assuming then? Not actually done it multiple times, just discounting it?

lol, no.
Just "no"?

How is a group in Frame Work guaranteed faster? You kill the boss and get out faster? He dies plenty fast, the DA just makes it messier. One kill. One.

Diplomatic impunity has multiple gather-party chokepoints and nothing in there lasts long enough on a normal farm to require additional folks - in fact, get more people in there and scale them it might slow things down. At the very best you still have a group of people following the one person and their only job is to make sure they get to the gather point and not slow me down.

Seriously, DA levels w/ scaling slows all of those down and makes them all more difficult turning a fast run into more trouble. That stupid one in the harbor where you get the gem is the same way ... Tangleroot 6-ish (the run) is much faster with a smaller group than a big one.

Thanks to DA there are plenty of quests that are more difficult in a group - even a good group - just due to scaling.

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 11:04 AM

And oh dear if you try something that is anything more than a straigth run to the end, try doing delera 4 runs in 3 minutes with full optionals and XP bonuses solo...

This is where you're losing people.

You: Impossible! You can't name a quest where ...

Others: (named)

You: I don't believe it is possible! But I haven't done it, just stating my belief as absolute fact! Also, you can't name a quest that is faster if I include a restriction to ignore the quests that are faster! And if you can, you're running with NOOBS!

You've got a point and clearly you're passionate about it. That's great. Keep focused on your point, and don't distract from your message with insults ("you run with noobs") and unprovable all-or-nothing claims.

Milfeulle

09-08-2011, 11:13 AM

I can using your logic, because casters were always better than melee in 97% of all content. The only place melee were relevant (your logic) is boss DPS. Everywhere else casters owned. Then epics came along, and players whose mains were melee were perfectly satisfied to have casters play slave to having a CC DC of 40 or dont join groups. Now that they are worth more than that, this all of a sudden translates to "melee is useless"? Im afraid not.

I am a human sorc and I can tank everything cept Horoth. I do more DPS than a melee class and I rarely see anyone can steal my aggro unless they have uber hate gear or use intimate.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 11:18 AM

Eh. No. It takes very little time. I solo this daily on my wizard, and I do it pretty quickly. I'm sure others are faster.

Get a party in there and scaling makes it tougher. I've done both numerous times ... sounds like you haven't?

Oh yes, I have, as I said, you can at best do it as fast a group can, not faster like was claimed. And even then, I'd wager the group is faster in most cases.

And yes, I have soloed it and have also done it in groups quite often.

You don't hit those at 1k/minute on your characters? I sure do. Alone ... 1 minute ... with a full group ... scaling and DA prevents this time frame. Period.

Finding the mummies is SIMPLE. Bringing people in scales the DA.

So ... you've not tested this? Just assuming then? Not actually done it multiple times, just discounting it?

No, because by the time our group is in desert we're usually swimming in so much XP that we're busy getting all the good XP quests done before we cap and start taking penalties from them.

And even if I did do them, I'd say our group is quite capable of 1 minute runs there.

How is a group in Frame Work guaranteed faster? You kill the boss and get out faster? He dies plenty fast, the DA just makes it messier. One kill. One.

Diplomatic impunity has multiple gather-party chokepoints and nothing in there lasts long enough on a normal farm to require additional folks - in fact, get more people in there and scale them it might slow things down. At the very best you still have a group of people following the one person and their only job is to make sure they get to the gather point and not slow me down.

As said before, they are at best as fast as with a group focused on getting them done, plus in diplomatic impunity you can do more optionals with a group and complete in the same time, if not quicker compared to solo.

That actually applies to frame work too. Come to think of it, we haven't been killing the optional rares in frame work, won't slow us down and it's 400-2000 more xp per run depending on the rares.

Seriously, DA levels w/ scaling slows all of those down and makes them all more difficult turning a fast run into more trouble. That stupid one in the harbor where you get the gem is the same way ... Tangleroot 6-ish (the run) is much faster with a smaller group than a big one.

Especially when leveling, dungeon scaling does very little if anything at all to slow down a group, and then there are the quests which are some of the best xp quests in the game... if you happen to be doing them in a group.

And I can't really figure out any other epic quest than claw where you could get anywhere near the group completion times when soloing.

Aaxeyu

09-08-2011, 11:26 AM

Chai

09-08-2011, 11:50 AM

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 11:53 AM

Scaling does not does not double the HP of mobs if you go from 1 to 2 players. Going from 1 to 2 players can double your DPS, making you kill stuff faster.
In quest where you need to open doors it's faster if there are 2 people so you can open every other door (this can be made very small though, with perfect interuption timing).
In quest where you only run from point A to point B none is faster than the other.

So to conclude, it is NOT faster to solo. It's at best equal, but never faster and most often slower.

In a perfect closed group who are all ready to go, had their bio breaks, have their soda's filled and are all sitting at the start, etc. sure.

There's plenty of content that realistically I can knock out while I'm waiting for my hyper-ADD group to assemble ... and more that's faster if one person just does it if not everyone is purely focused on-task.

Like I said, I get the passion. I didn't jump in until folks started saying stuff like this:

Stop playing with noobs and go try questing with some good players maybe? It's simply not possible for one person to do things as fast as a good group can, even when taking dungeon scaling into account, a good group will *ALWAYS* beat a good soloer in time AND efficiency.

A group of noobs is any group that can't beat my solo time on all quests?

You lost your credibility here.

Chai

09-08-2011, 11:54 AM

We were speaking about how fast it is to solo something, not how often it is done. You can't solo eClaw faster than you can do it with a group effort.

Can and has been done.

You have to find the mummies, and if you split up as a group, you'll find them faster, yes?

You mean run them all to the same kill zone and burn em down? Coupla minutes.

Our TR group was farming frame work for xp in 2-3 min runs if I remember right, you're not going to do it faster solo.

Kill zone only takes one person.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 11:59 AM

Can and has been done.

Where? Haven't seen that.

BlargneyTheSecond

09-08-2011, 12:03 PM

"Why the wing nerf is such a big deal."

It isn't.
For YOU.

That's the only person for whom you are qualified to opine statements like that. Furthermore, just because you don't care about it doesn't mean you should advocate that all players who enjoy the feature lose useful access to it.
-blarg

Faent

09-08-2011, 12:03 PM

Our TR group was farming frame work for xp in 2-3 min runs if I remember right, you're not going to do it faster solo.

I'd like to see a screenshot of a two minute Frame Work completion. I don't think that's possible. I solo-farm it for XP in 3 minutes, and I think I do it as fast as it can be done. But perhaps there's a faster route to the end-fight than mine. The end-fight takes about four seconds if you use the right spells, so if you're hitting two minutes, that must be the trick.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 12:09 PM

I'd like to see a screenshot of a two minute Frame Work completion. I don't think that's possible. I solo-farm it for XP in 3 minutes, and I think I do it as fast as it can be done. But perhaps there's a faster route to the end-fight than mine. The end-fight takes about four seconds if you use the right spells, so if you're hitting two minutes, that must be the trick.

Didn't take any pictures because all of our runs are crazy fast so one among the others isn't anything special. Maybe I'll remember to take one when our TR train leaves the station again.

Aaxeyu

09-08-2011, 12:12 PM

In a perfect closed group who are all ready to go, had their bio breaks, have their soda's filled and are all sitting at the start, etc. sure.

Yes.
His point was that a group can do things faster than a single player.

Aaxeyu

09-08-2011, 12:25 PM

If the only way to solo is single target DPS, or even DPS at all, youd be correct. Since its not, youre not.

Because you say so?
Please atleast attempt to refute my arguments when you are calling me wrong.

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 01:04 PM

Yes.
His point was that a group can do things faster than a single player.

And I get his passion.

If a group CANT, then his passion says you're playing with noobs.

I can absolutely agree that a perfectly tuned group can do many (most? all?) faster than a solo. That's not the rule, that is the exception in many quests.

Viisari

09-08-2011, 01:08 PM

And I get his passion.

If a group CANT, then his passion says you're playing with noobs.

I can absolutely agree that a perfectly tuned group can do many (most? all?) faster than a solo. That's not the rule, that is the exception in many quests.

This whole time I've been talking about groups that are somewhat experienced, that's why I was referring to noobs. A moderately experienced group will either do equal times or beat the soloer by far, if they can't they are new players and not moderately experienced ones.

Yes your solo runs are faster than pretty much any random pug group, very surprising.

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 01:16 PM

This whole time I've been talking about groups that are somewhat experienced, that's why I was referring to noobs. A moderately experienced group will either do equal times or beat the soloer by far, if they can't they are new players and not moderately experienced ones.

Yes your solo runs are faster than pretty much any random pug group, very surprising.

Experience =/= zerg speed ... except to you.

My daughter beat the heck out of my wife in wii boxing the first time she played ... not because she was experienced and had any real time investment, more that the specific challenge in question rewards insane 7-year-old sugar-infused energy levels.

What % of folks do you put in your "moderate experience" pool? What % of the world do you think are noobs then?

Viisari

09-08-2011, 01:26 PM

Experience =/= zerg speed ... except to you.

My daughter beat the heck out of my wife in wii boxing the first time she played ... not because she was experienced and had any real time investment, more that the specific challenge in question rewards insane 7-year-old sugar-infused energy levels.

What % of folks do you put in your "moderate experience" pool? What % of the world do you think are noobs then?

Ah, but zerging does require experience, you need to know the quests inside out, a new player can't do that. Just like quick solo runs require you to be experienced. And seeing as both require experience, it's only fair to compare players of equal skill. And this is the situation where the group will always be either equal, and in most quests win by a wide margin.

Because of this, your example is flawed.

And I don't really care about which portion of the playerbase is which, they can play how they like, but we were talking about quick runs, and those require experience when grouping and when soloing, what the people who can't do these are doing is irrelevant.

BlargneyTheSecond

09-08-2011, 01:31 PM

I agree, Viisari, speed is fun. It's fun to push your limits to see just how fast you can go.

Chai

09-08-2011, 02:30 PM

Because you say so?
Please atleast attempt to refute my arguments when you are calling me wrong.

You are outlining one tactic to beat a quest, DPS, then saying moar DPS = faster quest completion. Since there are many different ways to beat a quest other than DPS, what I pointed out is youre selling a slice here and calling it the entire cake, and then acting like its absolute, heh.

Nerfs are not the answer. Trying to corner me on a tangent that has virtually limitless possibilies is not backing up a point, nor refuting a point. In fact, trying to banter absolutes ina D&D based game at all is hilarious, because they just dont apply.

I see how these nerf requests are all fine and dandy, until the next nerf hits the preferred class of those who supported nerfs in the past. Thats when the waffle truck shows up and the party begins. :p

voodoogroves

09-08-2011, 03:17 PM

And I don't really care about which portion of the playerbase is which,
That's clear, and that's the only reason I piped up at all

they can play how they like, but we were talking about quick runs, and those require experience when grouping and when soloing, what the people who can't do these are doing is irrelevant.

Best group is faster than best soloer in nearly all cases. Sure.
- I do not dispute this point

Anyone not faster than best soloer is a "noob" ... very classy position.

Your choosing to call whatever you don't want to deal with as irrelevant is also amusing to me.

I don't think the majority of the player base is as skilled to, as a group, speed run the quests I mentioned faster than an experienced single individual. I guess that means most people are, to you, noobs who are not moderately experienced?

I say this full well knowing I'm not awesome, but I know I can zip through some of those quests pretty dang fast. Not MrCow fast, but fast ... and faster than the majority of groups, even multi-TRs on XP runs. I'm not that cool, yet for the quests above and probably others I know that groups will slow me down. I guess I must be moderately experienced and they are all noobs.

It is relevant, because I think the norm is different than you do. Perfect mathematical model may show one thing, but the reality is the world of players isn't like that ... and I wouldn't chose to characterize them as you did ... and I think by doing so you've lost your point in the "passion".

Aaxeyu

09-08-2011, 03:25 PM

You are outlining one tactic to beat a quest, DPS, then saying moar DPS = faster quest completion. Since there are many different ways to beat a quest other than DPS, what I pointed out is youre selling a slice here and calling it the entire cake, and then acting like its absolute, heh.

In almost all quests you benefit from more DPS no matter how you choose to do it. In the few that you don't need to kill anything at all you can still do it faster or equally fast in a group versus solo. I explained that in the lines that you ignored:
"In quest where you need to open doors it's faster if there are 2 people so you can open every other door (this can be made very small though, with perfect interuption timing).
In quest where you only run from point A to point B none is faster than the other."

The things I said covers a very broad spectrum of different quests.
Instead of just saying that there are other ways and that makes me wrong, you could try to say what those other ways are and how it makes me wrong.

Nerfs are not the answer. Trying to corner me on a tangent that has virtually limitless possibilies is not backing up a point, nor refuting a point. In fact, trying to banter absolutes ina D&D based game at all is hilarious, because they just dont apply.

I see how these nerf requests are all fine and dandy, until the next nerf hits the preferred class of those who supported nerfs in the past. Thats when the waffle truck shows up and the party begins. :p

Oh look, more anti-nerf bantering and ridicoulous insinuations! It's getting very old now Chai.
Didn't you have film at 11?

Chai

09-08-2011, 04:39 PM

The things I said covers a very broad spectrum of different quests.
Instead of just saying that there are other ways and that makes me wrong, you could try to say what those other ways are and how it makes me wrong.

And when this happens Im just told that its irrelevant anyhow, because the examples that myself and others have brought up dont support your stance. This is as old as the hills as well.

Bottom line. Make a blanket statement (which you have) and one person cites an example where that blanket statement does not apply (which has been done a couple times now) and its no longer a blanket statement.

Oh look, more anti-nerf bantering and ridicoulous insinuations! It's getting very old now Chai.

It is as old as the nerf requests themselves. Nerfs arent the answer. Those who request nerfs around these parts are usually the same people complaining about them after the nerf happens. Thats when the "told you so" card gets tossed out onto the proverbial table, and theyre not too happy to be reminded that they were the ones pushing for this previous to the nerf bat being swung. The U5 hilarity is a perfect example of this, heh.

Didn't you have film at 11?

I did, but something about the quality of the popcorn just wasnt right...

(points for getting the reference) :p

Aaxeyu

09-10-2011, 05:33 AM

And when this happens Im just told that its irrelevant anyhow, because the examples that myself and others have brought up dont support your stance. This is as old as the hills as well.

Bottom line. Make a blanket statement (which you have) and one person cites an example where that blanket statement does not apply (which has been done a couple times now) and its no longer a blanket statement.

Maybe I misinterpeted his statement, but I don't believe he said "It's always faster to be in a group compared to solo". I understood it as "a group can do things faster or equally fast as solo player"
The first statement is false, and the second is true. Obviously bad groups will make it faster to solo, but good groups won't. The second statement,my stance, removes playerskill from the equation because it's not neccesary to consider it.

It is as old as the nerf requests themselves. Nerfs arent the answer. Those who request nerfs around these parts are usually the same people complaining about them after the nerf happens. Thats when the "told you so" card gets tossed out onto the proverbial table, and theyre not too happy to be reminded that they were the ones pushing for this previous to the nerf bat being swung. The U5 hilarity is a perfect example of this, heh.

Please share your research on who requests nerfs and who whines about nerfs.

I think nerfs make the game better. Not all nerfs, but some. Savant curse stacking and Epic SoS for example.

Perspicacity

09-11-2011, 06:44 AM

I don't have a favored soul so I haven't read any wings threads till now. Something about the title drew me in because I wanted to know what the "big deal" was. After reading the OP's plea, It doesn't seem like that big a deal to me but I got to wonder...If the wings are so great,, how do you deal with playing your other non FS toons? It must be like that feeling you get after TR, when your moving around in your 5% striders but you have that contrast all the time , every time you play another toon. I suspect you'll adapt.

Your missing the point entirely, we don't want wings on our other toon's we want them on our favored souls and only on the favored souls. I don't want wings on my barbarian any more than I would want spell casting on a fighter or Turning on a rogue. It's what makes it a fav soul. It's the only unique ability favs have, to take it away or even water it down would make favs bland and flavorless. They'd just be a cleric spell list with a bucket of SP, nothing more.

I have a question, lets say for sake of argument that wings are in fact OP, why is that a bad thing?

junta74

09-11-2011, 07:06 AM

dragon2fire

09-11-2011, 10:31 AM

Your missing the point entirely, we don't want wings on our other toon's we want them on our favored souls and only on the favored souls. I don't want wings on my barbarian any more than I would want spell casting on a fighter or Turning on a rogue. It's what makes it a fav soul. It's the only unique ability favs have, to take it away or even water it down would make favs bland and flavorless. They'd just be a cleric spell list with a bucket of SP, nothing more.

I have a question, lets say for sake of argument that wings are in fact OP, why is that a bad thing?

Now i am very anti clip but i can answer your question. Basically if a fvs wants to with wings he can solo anything. Its not all of us i am not that way for example but the power gamers can do so and are like that. What annoys me is the concept that being powerful is so terrible but sadly that is super common in mmo's.

Winter_storm

09-11-2011, 11:40 AM

I think the Dev have the balance thing upside down...

In life balance comes from flaws (niches), not perfection. So if you try to balance by taking away those special flaws then life tends become severely unbalanced. Somewhere along the way we think that making something perfectly balanced fixed things and yet it doesn't. In a sense it untangles it. In a game sense this becomes true also, the Devs are making the game so perfectly balanced that its becoming untangled. If each character and class has it own nich, then taking away or nerfing for balance makes the gaming less special and fun.

Sorry Dev's to say it but before the game becomes too unraveled. My proof is this.. Is the game growing in people or ? :(

CyrusX99

09-11-2011, 12:16 PM

Haters gonna hate because they are jealous. Wings were specific to FvS, hence the attraction to BUY the class. Hell....while we are at it, lets nerf some more classes in a similar nature:

Barbarian/Monk: Increased run speed fatigues your character. Be careful running for prolonged periods of time or you will be hit with a 1:30 fatigue.

Sorcs: You grasp arcane magic as a natural ability and have a faster cast time/animation, however your cool downs are longer due to this.

Pale Masters are still over powered...further increase cool down on FoD, Wail, etc...

I could go on, but I think you all get my point.

Is this the balance you all really wanted because you are all whiners? You people make me sick.

CyrusX99

09-11-2011, 02:52 PM

dragon2fire

09-11-2011, 04:48 PM

Haha neg rep...gotta love it. Hey...this isn't a pvp game, so why hate on something someone else can do?

I see no point in the hate, just roll one yourself. That sounds like a good motto: shut up or roll up lol.

lol dont worry about the neg rep ya know i got neg 65 that is hilarious. could i get 2 more to match my post number. :P

kitsune_ko

09-12-2011, 02:06 AM

Anytime you think you have recieved undesered negative feedback you can appeal it by clicking the "report Post" button and reporting the post that recieved the negative feedback, state that you feel you have undesereved neg feedback for your post. It will be reviewed then.

Unfortunately; a lot of people use the rep system as a way to punish players for comments or views that they do not agree with; which is a violation fo the games ToS. Negative feeback is for abusive, offensive or trolling posts and should be used for thse types of posts only.

Repeated abuse of the negative feeback system can have consequences, but only if you report abuse of the system when it happens.

And while we are on topic; I am still anti-wing clipping its an overly heavy-handed nerf that I think punishes all players of FvS for what the top players are capable of.

And I aslo agree with that the doubling of SP cost to 10 is unneeded. It's on a timer already now; why kick the FvS once again with an increased SP cost, when you already have them on the ground?

I think somone else stated it perfectly. If Leap of Faith is now an action boost; then why does it cost SP at all? If it is a spell; then why is it on an action boost timer? As it is currently, it is a bastardization of the two; and with the negatives of both being applied; limited usage and a SP cost.

The double whammy is certainly unneeded.

CyrusX99

09-12-2011, 04:36 AM

Viisari

09-12-2011, 04:57 AM

On a serious note though, I completely agree with you. I will say that if the devs felt there needed to be a nerf, I'd understand if they just made the cooldown 6 seconds. I would have hated it, but could have lived with it a lot better. This is a total kick in the gut.

A lot of people actually thought increased cooldown would be even worse than the current nerf, increasing the cooldown was the thing devs were originally going to do.

Also, the whole rep system is borked, there's a reason people turn their rep off.

CyrusX99

09-12-2011, 05:10 AM

A lot of people actually thought increased cooldown would be even worse than the current nerf, increasing the cooldown was the thing devs were originally going to do.

Also, the whole rep system is borked, there's a reason people turn their rep off.

I got used to it eventually on my Air Savant....took a while, but hated it in the beginning. But the double nerf is really bothering me. Its kinda insulting actually. There wasn't a problem with it for 2 years now, why all the sudden a nerf to it?

This is kinda stupid though...so it is a feat that acts like an action boost...but unlike an action boost there is no way to increase its functionality, and unlike an action boost it costs you SP? Yea..that makes total sense.

Drona

09-12-2011, 06:28 AM

I do not have a FvS, but so many times people playing it have helped me in so many quests.

A new invasion boss, VoD runs (my barb and only FvS to get Tharnes :D) etc... to name a few.

I thank all the FvS who have helped me and made this game fun!

adamkatt

09-12-2011, 08:12 AM

In contrast, when I stepped onto Lammania, it felt horrible. With the 5 charge limit, I had to choose between getting places quickly or having speed bursts left when I got there to get out of trouble. I kid you not, it felt like the freedom that I had previously enjoyed so much had been taken away. I assure you it was not a pleasant feeling.

The restricted use of leap of faith is a complete game-changer for me. And definitely not for the better. Please don't bring this change to the live servers.
-blarg

Monks had it first and they have always been limited......

ShaitainFerenczy

09-12-2011, 08:44 AM

Everyone cried about the nerf to monks, rogues and sneaking/attacking, disruption/smiting/banishing weapons, spells, and now favored souls and their wings.
I do have a rogue, which I enjoy playing even though attacking while stealthed sends you straight back into view.
Nerfs for monk? My level 20 Dark Ninja Spy Monk Nefetiri is awesome.
The weapons, sure, the reason you all wanted a banishing rapier with keen or improved crit: pierce was faster instant killing, but not, you do more damage and can kill things with them ALMOST as fast.
Spells cast by arcanes, I cannot really comment on that since my wizard is only 6th level and my sorcer is only 4th.
Now for Favored Soul. I have a level 20 FvS named Marillith. Yes, when I reached 17th level and got Leap of Faith, I fell inlove with the Golden Wings as did many whom play the class. And yes, I do enjoy spamming the wings to move around public areas faster, and to keep up with the speed-demon barbarians and rangers (my barb and ranger are speedy). As annoying as the wing change may be, I will not stop playing Marillith. She is a fun toon and while not one of the many "godly" toons out there, she is mine and I enjoy her.
Many will disagree with me, or will tell me I am wrong. I do understand where the fvs players are coming from. It is the only class that you either have to unlock with favor, or buy using TP. That is for both f2p and VIP. The class rocks.
As long as Marillith is still fun to play, I shall continue doing so. All the while hiding behind her Light and Darkness, stabbing things with her scimitar, or blasting them back to Asmodeous.

Play the game, and enjoy it. Otherwise, we all have to go back to work and wait to die. :)