New Stalwart Defender & Defender of Siberys PrEs

[Arlathen]

From Lammania Release Notes

NEW: Fighter Stalwart Defender and Paladin Defender of Siberys now have a passive threat boost when using a shield. This boost stacks with the defensive stance bonuses.

In addition, their benefits have been modified:


Fighter Stalwart Defender I
While the flesh may be weak, you place your trust in the strength of steel. This prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, you possess DR 2/- and your melee threat generation is increased by 25%. Also, you may expend a use of Fighter action boost to enter a defensive stance. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

Stalwart Defender: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +10% maximum hit points, a +1 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 25% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Your defensive mastery continues to grow. In addition to the bonuses of Stalwart Defender I, this prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, your DR is upgraded from DR 2/- to DR 4/-, and you now generate 50% additional threat with melee attacks. You may expend a use of Fighter action boost to enter a defensive stance.

Stalwart Defender II: Improved Defensive Stance
You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +15% maximum hit points, a +2 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +3 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 50% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Your defensive mastery is complete. In addition to the bonuses of Stalwart Defender I and II, this prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by medium or heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, your DR is upgraded from DR 4/- to DR 6/-, and you now generate 75% additional threat with melee attacks. You may expend a use of Fighter action boost to to enter a defensive stance.

Stalwart Defender III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 75% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

And for the Paladins:

Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and grants the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. When using a shield, you generate 25% additional threat from all sources. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

Defender of Siberys: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, +10% maximum hit points, a +1 Sacred bonus on all saves, and a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 25% Sacred bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you continue your training as a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you an additional Lay on Hands use per rest, and further increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and heavy armor by an additional 1. When using a shield, you now generate 50% additional threat from all sources. You also gain the ability to enter an improved defensive stance or to produce a Mass Shield of Faith effect.

Defender of Siberys II: Improved Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, +15% maximum hit points, a +2 Sacred bonus on all saves, and a +3 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 50% Sacred bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you continue your training as a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, and further increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by an additional 1. When using a shield, you now generate 75% additional threat from all sources. You also gain the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, and a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 75% Sacred bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.


The movement rate increases are much welcome, and I think will open these up for more use across the board.

Thoughts?

[BruceTheHoon]

http://www.shrani.si/f/1O/mT/4XxLVx5v/update11-3.png

[Enoach]

My thoughts for both the DoS and SD - at a 10% movement cost, why would you not be in defensive stance 99.9% of the time? I like what I see with these proposed changes.

[Dragaer]

They will. +3 to hit and damage helps them be a little more useful in non tanking roles as well. The boost to HP (+6 con, 2 more than before but more importantly the +20% HP) will put them just under Barb raged HP. (mine was around 830ish or so in stance)

I'd rather they went to a higher DR % when using a shield and or Heavy armor, but the boost in HP will help with the bosses hitting harder now. The reason I say that is because there is still no disadvantage to wearing PJ's over heavy armor, other than the little DR you get with a shield and the shield mastery feat.

[Alabore]

The reason I say that is because there is still no disadvantage to wearing PJ's over heavy armor, other than the little DR you get with a shield and the shield mastery feat.
^^^
This.

I was going to say the same, before you edited your post.

[Astraghal]

Good to see Turbine are listening.

[Thrudh]

The reason I say that is because there is still no disadvantage to wearing PJ's over heavy armor, other than the little DR you get with a shield and the shield mastery feat.

I like the way they handled this BECAUSE you can wear PJs OR heavy armor...

PJ monk splashes don't have a huge advantage... A shield offers almost as much AC as the wisdom bonus does, especially now that we're getting newer better shields.

[Dragaer]

PJ monk splashes don't have a huge advantage...

It's not huge, it is just weird.

Monk splashes get their evasion and do not sacrifice DPS by holding a shield; and those that use a shield get a little DR at the cost of DPS.

The weird part comes with grazing hits....PJ's protect the wearer just as much as heavy armor does? Sounds silly....but this is a game.

EDIT: ouch, neg rep?? I'm not hating on monks ;) Its the logic that hurts my head.

[Thrudh]

EDIT: ouch, neg rep?? I'm not hating on monks ;) Its the logic that hurts my head.

It wasn't me... I'll pos rep you later (I've given out too much rep lately)

[BruceTheHoon]

now that we're getting newer better shields.

We're getting new better shields? :eek:
URL PLZ!

[Chai]

I like the way they handled this BECAUSE you can wear PJs OR heavy armor...

PJ monk splashes don't have a huge advantage... A shield offers almost as much AC as the wisdom bonus does, especially now that we're getting newer better shields.

PJ monk splashes still use their full TWF line for alot more DPS, while making no sacrifice to AC for doing so. Not only is it odd that they can stand up better to the heavy hitters, but they do higher damage at the same time.

If AC actually worked in this game, even a kensai putting a shield on would gain some measurable defense due to making the DPS sacrifice they made by equipping S&B.

As I said in the previous updates, we shall see. S&B sure didnt hold aggro well the last few.

[elraido]

One thing a dex build needs vs a full plate armor wearer, is well Dex. A lot of paladins don't have the ability points to spread around into dex. Especially if they want Str, Dex, Con, Int (combat ex), and charisma. You just run out.

[Cyr]

One thing a dex build needs vs a full plate armor wearer, is well Dex. A lot of paladins don't have the ability points to spread around into dex. Especially if they want Str, Dex, Con, Int (combat ex), and charisma. You just run out.

And wisdom...

[Feithlin]

PJ monk splashes still use their full TWF line for alot more DPS, while making no sacrifice to AC for doing so. Not only is it odd that they can stand up better to the heavy hitters, but they do higher damage at the same time.

If AC actually worked in this game, even a kensai putting a shield on would gain some measurable defense due to making the DPS sacrifice they made by equipping S&B.

As I said in the previous updates, we shall see. S&B sure didnt hold aggro well the last few.

PJs and heavy armored have more or less the same AC. While PJs keep a higher dps (but not necessarily a better tps: threat per second), S&B get a better damage mitigation: not only the DR, but also the damage absorption from shield mastery feats (up to 25% with the 2 feats and the tower shield). These are 2 options, both with its advantages and drawbacks. Seems fine to me.

[BDog77]

My biggest question with this is will it change for those who already have the stance? Or will we have to reset our enhancements? (I'M not honestly sure if i would notice the difference, I don't play my defender much...)

[Jay203]

love the change in the speed while in stance <3

[Dragaer]

A lot of paladins don't have the ability points to spread around into dex. Especially if they want Str, Dex, Con, Int (combat ex), and charisma. You just run out.

Stalwarts need all of those as well, it isn't just pallies that sacrifice by needing to put points into all of those. Splashes need Wis as well, though not a whole lot (a little dab will do ya).

[Jerevon]

Oh wow, just wow. Look at the love Paladin DoS got. So nothing on the horizon for Knight of the Chalice huh? Because Censure Demons is just fine the way it is now...pfft, whatever. Ok, back to being a Paladin tank again. Screw KotC.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

My thoughts for both the DoS and SD - at a 10% movement cost, why would you not be in defensive stance 99.9% of the time? I like what I see with these proposed changes.


Well, if it's not needed, you'd want to just run ahead to the good part. But yeah, in any quest on a more challenging setting you would use it most of the time. But that's probably the point, since on live the stances are unusable except for fights where you're going to take awhile, since the group isn't going to wait for your fat arse you'd have to constantly be turning it off, and you only get 5 activations/rest, and considering the PrE is the only pally one that needs a feat, i think it got underutilized.

I know I'm stoked about the change, esp the whole stacking sheild threat, since I went with a weird b-sword THF sheild thing. Note: I do know when to put away the sheild and use a THF, which is of course most of the time.


Well done turbine.

[NytCrawlr]

It's not huge, it is just weird.

Monk splashes get their evasion and do not sacrifice DPS by holding a shield; and those that use a shield get a little DR at the cost of DPS.

The weird part comes with grazing hits....PJ's protect the wearer just as much as heavy armor does? Sounds silly....but this is a game.

EDIT: ouch, neg rep?? I'm not hating on monks ;) Its the logic that hurts my head.

Yeah, will try to balance that neg rep out later (not sure why your post deserves neg rep) once my rep wand recharges.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

One thing a dex build needs vs a full plate armor wearer, is well Dex. A lot of paladins don't have the ability points to spread around into dex. Especially if they want Str, Dex, Con, Int (combat ex), and charisma. You just run out.

Arrrgh, almost makes you want to go drow. Nah, scratch that, doesn't really work out either.

[Alabore]

EDIT: ouch, neg rep?? I'm not hating on monks ;) Its the logic that hurts my head.

I gave you a green cookie before, so I can't give you another, yet.
But I share your point: throw plate wearers a bone - considering you can't take it away from monks, since they had to pay for theirs.

...

Aside note: that's what you get when you make some races/classes p2p-only.
You not only have to balance them against other choices, but make sure you give them a tiny extra boost, to warrant purchase.

...

Aside, aside, note: monks in 4E are listed as being psionically-powered.
Basically, bear with me, I'm just simplifying here, they're psionic sayans.
Since a lot from 4E is being retrofitted into DDO, either as concepts or mechanics, we could argue monks are like that because their psionic powers made them tougher than regular folks, who need plate to cover their otherwise soft skins and bones and weapons instead of adamantine-hard knuckles.

...

Aside, aside, aside, note: I'd like to build some monk/fvs splash, taking advantage of whirlwind of steel - if only I weren't forced to use existing robes/outfits.

...

Aside of the above: with crafting I can keep boat rags and unless they tweak them, craft them and build a cosmetic kit from DDO Store.

Some work GREAT with rags, so Turbine, don't you do anything fancy eh?

;)

[elraido]

Stalwarts need all of those as well, it isn't just pallies that sacrifice by needing to put points into all of those. Splashes need Wis as well, though not a whole lot (a little dab will do ya).

But how many stalwarts go 16-18 on charisma? Remember, the higher you go, the more expensive it is. If you only go up to 12-14 on a Stalwart, that is more points you can throw into dex. Paladins need those points to get Divine Might up (can't just take a viagra for that either).

[Tirisha]

But how many stalwarts go 16-18 on charisma? Remember, the higher you go, the more expensive it is. If you only go up to 12-14 on a Stalwart, that is more points you can throw into dex. Paladins need those points to get Divine Might up (can't just take a viagra for that either).

Girltank did!:o 16 cha for intim/saves with 2 pally levels, though I'm sure I'm the exception and not the rule.:p *Girltanks a half-elf that also bought 13 wis for monk dil=more amp than human for same AP.*

On a serious note I'm not really sure if Divine might is even worth the investment, the amount of attacks you miss for activating it in combat may=more dps then what you get for the sacred bonus.

Edit:
Also all you need is 14 base dex to fill cavalry plate *the highest AC armor that I'm aware of* 14 base+2tome+2ship buff+2yugo pot+2exceptional dex (from event shield, also best AC shield in the game)+6 item=28 dex, *do pallies even get armor masteries?* that will fill every point of armor mastery and stalwart dex assuming you put nimbleness in the blue slot of the plate.

[grodon9999]

The weird part comes with grazing hits....PJ's protect the wearer just as much as heavy armor does? Sounds silly....but this is a game.



it doesn't, the % damage mitigation from the shield is absolutely better at handling grazes.

[Tirisha]

it doesn't, the % damage mitigation from the shield is absolutely better at handling grazes.

pajama wears get the same benefit from a Shield wand *unless you are talking about shield mastery feats which not all pallies could fit in I'm sure*

[grodon9999]

pajama wears get the same benefit from a Shield wand *unless you are talking about shield mastery feats which not all pallies could fit in I'm sure*

I was referring to shield mastery.

My idea for giving S&B the small boost it needs, as now it should put out more threat than TWFing, is to give a +10 AC bonus for Combat Expertise if a shield is worn.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Just might have to try out Stalwarts on my TWF fighter now

[Dragaer]

it doesn't, the % damage mitigation from the shield is absolutely better at handling grazes.

Of course it doesn't in the game....that is just me being stupid and thinking about reality and infusing it into game mechanics...

I will flog myself later.

P.S. I love the idea of CE getting another +5 to AC while wearing a shield (due to the loss of blocking AC). TWF gets double STR enhancements, CE should do the same with a shield.

@elraido - I LoLed...pallies and their viagra. You're right, a stalwart putting more than 14 into CHA is just silly.

[Tirisha]

I was referring to shield mastery.

My idea for giving S&B the small boost it needs, as now it should put out more threat than TWFing, is to give a +10 AC bonus for Combat Expertise if a shield is worn.

ah, make sense, the increase to AC would be nice, my AC doesn't top off *reasonably* as well on my SD as opposed to my Wis build monk *who has DPS pre and puts out a lot of dps (holds aggro with no threat gear) mind you:p*

Though they still both have there trade offs, monks HP is too low, though a splash Stalwart could probably pull the HP off.

Shield mastery is nice but the best AC shield in the game is considered a "light shield" which really urks me.

I'd be definitely for your proposed change since I don't think it unbalances anything *and makes S&B AC more approachable*

[elraido]

Girltank did!:o 16 cha for intim/saves with 2 pally levels, though I'm sure I'm the exception and not the rule.:p *Girltanks a half-elf that also bought 13 wis for monk dil=more amp than human for same AP.*

On a serious note I'm not really sure if Divine might is even worth the investment, the amount of attacks you miss for activating it in combat may=more dps then what you get for the sacred bonus.

Edit:
Also all you need is 14 base dex to fill cavalry plate *the highest AC armor that I'm aware of* 14 base+2tome+2ship buff+2yugo pot+2exceptional dex (from event shield, also best AC shield in the game)+6 item=28 dex, *do pallies even get armor masteries?* that will fill every point of armor mastery and stalwart dex assuming you put nimbleness in the blue slot of the plate.

No armor masteries for a pally :(

One thing I would LOVE to see....if you are in a group with a stalward defender or defender of siberys....you can make a phalinx for a +2 AC for each defender next to you (must be with in paladins aura to take effect).

[Cashiry]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

[Burtle]

Looks like I'll be holding off on that TR after all...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm:cool:

[sephiroth1084]

I really like the changes, though I would have liked them to add in some interaction with the new (ly developed) shield feats, and still think that Defender of Siberys could use a tiny bit more of something since it still feels like it's getting a lot less than Stalwart Defender does.

[NoidRoid]

These changes are also nice for the 6 pally splash righteousness builds with a 12+ Monk/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue base. With or without AC.

Spending the APs on HotD I or KotC I for a minimal amp/dps gain was barely even worth it, extra threat and HP from DoS I would be very nice. On some tanking builds the 10% HP will come out to double madstone all the time without having to fumble about with the boots or losing the ability to cast/clicky. 25% extra threat, 2 extra turns, and +1 to saves are nice bonuses for non-AC amp/SnB hate tanks.

[Cyr]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

Indeed. Giving bonuses on PrE's that basically just nullify out the penalities seems kind of lame to me.

[lugoman]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

You can wear 30% striders instead of madstones and now come out 20% ahead.

[Ralmeth]

Thoughts?

Awesome!!! The extra hit points will be the best! There will be a much stronger arguement for a Pally or Fighter Defender to be the tank instead of the high HP barbarian. As a long time Pally tank there's nothing that grinds my gears more when the leader decides on a Barbarian with no AC to be the tank.

If the developers wanted to help out with this situation even more, I suggest one more change: Defender III (Pally or Fighter) gives immunity to the healing curse. You don't really need it on a high AC build, but there is a very strong feeling of most players that a WF must tank Suli simply because of this.

The second thing I really like is the increase to run speed, strength and con. I'll have to try it out but at only a 10% reduction in speed with 30% striders it may be worth it to keep the defensive stance on the majority of time in epics unless you have a long run ahead of you, so the extra DPS will be helpful there. As for other times such as elite Sins, the party won't have to watch me roll (i.e. tumble) through the entire quest.

Thanks Developers! :)

[Cashiry]

You can wear 30% striders instead of madstones and now come out 20% ahead.

I wasnt referring to the movement speed.. was talking about the benefiets from rage/madstone while in stance.. you dont get any benefiets in stance

[whomhead]

Is the -10% movement speed just run/walk speed, or does that include attack rates as well? I'm guessing just movement. If that's correct, then why would you ever turn the stance off?

Also, does it turn off rage when you're in stance, or it just can't be cast on you? If the former, then that basically cuts in third the benefit of the stance.

[Arsont]

http://www.shrani.si/f/1O/mT/4XxLVx5v/update11-3.png

Oh yes please. I like. These will help a couple builds I'm working on much more fun and reliable to play.

[sephiroth1084]

Is the -10% movement speed just run/walk speed, or does that include attack rates as well? I'm guessing just movement. If that's correct, then why would you ever turn the stance off?

Also, does it turn off rage when you're in stance, or it just can't be cast on you? If the former, then that basically cuts in half the benefit of the stance.
These effects haven't changed, they've just had their numbers adjusted on Lama. The speed reduction is just walking/running, and the stances have always both turned off rage and Inspire Recklessness, as well as preventing them from being applied to you once the stance is active.

Likely, this is why they bumped the Str/Con bonuses to +6 from +4.

[elraido]

Likely, this is why they bumped the Str/Con bonuses to +6 from +4.

Didn't even think of that. Sort of a free rage now with 20% hp instead of 20.

[Thrudh]

Its unfortunate that you cant get rage cast on you or have madstone proc if you are in stance.. I wish they would fix that....

Both of those would kill your AC...

So no, please don't fix that.

I realize that many people are people are thinking about switching to SD for their DPS fighters (almost as much STR and Power Surge, plus all those extra hps!), but most of us who are SDs now are doing for AC purposes...

I don't want to have to avoid mass rages..

[Thrudh]

Indeed. Giving bonuses on PrE's that basically just nullify out the penalities seems kind of lame to me.

It's a defensive PrE... Madstone, I could see, because that's voluntary, but let's definitely keep rage nullified when in stance.

[Cyr]

Both of those would kill your AC...

So no, please don't fix that.

I realize that many people are people are thinking about switching to SD for their DPS fighters (almost as much STR and Power Surge, plus all those extra hps!), but most of us who are SDs now are doing for AC purposes...

I don't want to have to avoid mass rages..

Madstone gives you more AC if you do not currently have a NA +4 or higher effect on you and never hurts your AC. Rage can be dismissed by toggling CE. There is no downside for allowing these on defenders (from the defenders perspective.

[Seamonkeysix]

So here is my question:

Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and grants the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. When using a shield, you generate 25% additional threat from all sources. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

So if I am reading what is in red correctly, you could theoretically make a divine tank, say 12 Fvs/ 6 Paladin/ 2 Monk that would get 25% additional threat from any source, to include spells? If so, a 12 FvS could self heal, have good DPS threat AND get 25% additional threat from spells like DP, searing light, nimbus, ect...

That might make a 12/6/2 evasion, self-healing, AoV II, DoS I, tank pretty sexy. :)

Evasion + self healing + tons of threat + healing amp would be very nice.

[Thrudh]

Also, does it turn off rage when you're in stance, or it just can't be cast on you? If the former, then that basically cuts in third the benefit of the stance.

It turns off rage, and it can't be cast on you...

Yeah, it cuts the benefit of the stance in third... If you're not going SD for the AC, don't bother. Kensai with madstone and rage will do a lot more DPS.

[elraido]

So here is my question:

Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and grants the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect. When using a shield, you generate 25% additional threat from all sources. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

So if I am reading what is in red correctly, you could theoretically make a divine tank, say 12 Fvs/ 6 Paladin/ 2 Monk that would get 25% additional threat from any source, to include spells? If so, a 12 FvS could self heal, have good DPS threat AND get 25% additional threat from spells like DP, searing light, nimbus, ect...

That might make a 12/6/2 evasion, self healing tank pretty sexy. :)

Evasion + self healing + tons of threat + healing amp would be very nice.


Reading that, it would seem that is the case. Trying to figure out the math on this one.
75% bonus from Pre/shield to all effects
75% bonus in stance/shield to melee
100% bonus divine righteousness
Intimidate bonus w/shield
20%?Leviks Set (figure shield and gauntlets )
15% Defender of Siberys Set

And I can't remember if all the Pre's tiers stack or if they just take the highest one.

[Thrudh]

Madstone gives you more AC if you do not currently have a NA +4 or higher effect on you and never hurts your AC. Rage can be dismissed by toggling CE. There is no downside for allowing these on defenders (from the defenders perspective.

Madstone doesn't give a -2 AC like normal rage?? Learn something new every day...

So I withdraw my objections....

However, I see why they set it up that way... If they allow rage and madstone while in SD stance, there's not much point in going Kensai.... They need to boost Kensai's Power Surge to +12 STR at Tier III then.

[whomhead]

It turns off rage, and it can't be cast on you...

Yeah, it cuts the benefit of the stance in third... If you're not going SD for the AC, don't bother. Kensai with madstone and rage will do a lot more DPS.

I hadn't thought about the AC hit when raged. That would be an unfortunate loss on an AC-based prestige.

I was actually more interested in these questions from the DoS perspective, not a Kensai. For a paladin I'm comparing +6 str (really only 4 since you lose rage) and a boatload (where a boatload = about 200) of HP to the bonus hit/damage against evil outsiders. Seems to be coming pretty strongly in favor of Defender in most epics and the new raids. Though would obviously be closer in quests that actually HAVE evil outsiders... probably still Defender.

EDIT: And if the character happens to have less than 18 levels of paladin, it seems like a no-brainer to go Defender all the way.

[sephiroth1084]

Madstone doesn't give a -2 AC like normal rage?? Learn something new every day...

So I withdraw my objections....

However, I see why they set it up that way... If they allow rage and madstone while in SD stance, there's not much point in going Kensai.... They need to boost Kensai's Power Surge to +12 STR at Tier III then.
Why? Kensai is still getting +2 attack and +2/+4 damage, +1 to threat range in addition to the +8 Str.

[Tirisha]

Indeed. Giving bonuses on PrE's that basically just nullify out the penalities seems kind of lame to me.

I think the idea is getting those stat bumps while maintaining a meaningful AC.

[Tirisha]

No armor masteries for a pally :(

One thing I would LOVE to see....if you are in a group with a stalward defender or defender of siberys....you can make a phalinx for a +2 AC for each defender next to you (must be with in paladins aura to take effect).

to the suggestion forums!:D

[Thrudh]

Why? Kensai is still getting +2 attack and +2/+4 damage, +1 to threat range in addition to the +8 Str.


Yeah, that threat range keeps the Kensai competitive... I'll agree with you there... But 20% more hit points is a pretty sweet benefit, along with +6 STR, +6 CON stance (that you can now keep running all the time)....

It wouldn't hurt to give Kensai III a little extra boost... I like the way they spread out the SD benefits equally to all tiers... They should do that with Kensai too...

Power Surge at Tier I of +4 STR, Tier II of +8 STR, and Tier III of +12 STR.

[Seamonkeysix]

Reading that, it would seem that is the case. Trying to figure out the math on this one.
75% bonus from Pre/shield to all effects
75% bonus in stance/shield to melee
100% bonus divine righteousness
Intimidate bonus w/shield
20%?Leviks Set (figure shield and gauntlets )
15% Defender of Siberys Set

And I can't remember if all the Pre's tiers stack or if they just take the highest one.

I'm trying to figure this out, too. With the upcoming Artificer class being able to add silver properties to weapons, I am thinking this might be a pretty sick operator.

Human 12 FvS/6 Paladin/2 Monk AOV II, DoS I
Past Life Paladin

IC Slash
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Quicken
Maximize
Tower Shield Proficiency
Power Attack
Toughness
Least Dragon Mark of Sentinel

Go for Levik's Set for healing amp and threat. DoS I Threat. Possibly Anathema (not sure if the spell threat will stack with DoS). DoS set threat. Human Healing Amp, Pally past life healing Amp, DT armor healing Amp.

Geared out with Epic Chimera's Fang. Slot for good. Get silver from Artificer.

You end up with something like:

175% Melee Threat
150% Spell Threat
200% Healing Amp

In stance you could end up with decent HP. A good SP pool to self heal. Reasonable DR.

Tossing DP and stacking it, swinging Epic Chimera's Fang, and pew pew cannon, you should be able to hold agro no problem. You would have a good SP pool to keep yourself up with spells...especially if you toss in Con Opp and/or Torc.

I will have to put it into a planner later, but the concept seems pretty solid.

I am kind of liking this! :)

[Seamonkeysix]

I'm trying to figure this out, too. With the upcoming Artificer class being able to add silver properties to weapons, I am thinking this might be a pretty sick operator.

Human 12 FvS/6 Paladin/2 Monk AOV II, DoS I
Past Life Paladin

IC Slash
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Quicken
Maximize
Tower Shield Proficiency
Power Attack
Toughness
Least Dragon Mark of Sentinel

Go for Levik's Set for healing amp and threat. DoS I Threat. Possibly Anathema (not sure if the spell threat will stack with DoS). DoS set threat. Human Healing Amp, Pally past life healing Amp, DT armor healing Amp.

Geared out with Epic Chimera's Fang. Slot for good. Get silver from Artificer.

You end up with something like:

175% Melee Threat
150% Spell Threat
200% Healing Amp

In stance you could end up with decent HP. A good SP pool to self heal. Reasonable DR.

Tossing DP and stacking it, swinging Epic Chimera's Fang, and pew pew cannon, you should be able to hold agro no problem. You would have a good SP pool to keep yourself up with spells...especially if you toss in Con Opp and/or Torc.

I will have to put it into a planner later, but the concept seems pretty solid.

I am kind of liking this! :)

Yeah...I wasn't even close on what this build can do.

How about:

330% Threat
330% Healing Amp
150% Spell Threat

:eek:

[lugoman]

Geared out with Epic Chimera's Fang. Slot for good. Get silver from Artificer.



Epic Chimera Fang is getting Silver on it in U11.

[jandhaer]

What I want to know is are the stance dodge bonuses going to stack with our equipment that give the same bonus?

[Seamonkeysix]

Epic Chimera Fang is getting Silver on it in U11.

Whoa...

[Khellendros13]

What I want to know is are the stance dodge bonuses going to stack with our equipment that give the same bonus?

Those dodge bonus's are already apart of the stances, and do stack with items/gear.

[phillymiket]

This is great! :D

I have a level 13 Dwarven Stalwart Mule and a level 16 Helf Burro of Siberys that are going to have to unpack their bags, get back in the game and cap up.

Now, where to put all the stuff?
.

[Bolo_Grubb]

for me it gives new life to an old character. I already have other DPS toons, a barb and a rogue so switching my kensai twf into a stalwart gives me a different way to try things.

I couldn't stand the slow movement of the current stalwarts, but with this change sounds like there S&B tanking abilities get a boost as well as there dps when going without S&B. Will have to work towards getting the rest of his Chimera's fang epic stuff too.

[ShadowFlash]

I Don't know that any one has pointed out the fact that for the DoS the bonuses are typed as Sacred, meaning they will probably not stack with Divine Might. Seems like something to consider as DM might not even be worth taking at all.

[Enoach]

I Don't know that any one has pointed out the fact that for the DoS the bonuses are typed as Sacred, meaning they will probably not stack with Divine Might. Seems like something to consider as DM might not even be worth taking at all.

I don't believe there is a conflict as they are bonuses to different aspects

1) DoS is a Sacred Strength Bonus
2) Divine Might is a Sacred Bonus to Damage and not a Strength Bonus

If both were a bonus to the same attribute then yes we may have a stacking issue, but they each boost a different attribute.

[Seikojin]

I swap between stalwart and kensai depending on my mood. Now I think I will hit stalwart for a much longer time. It is a loss in dps, but I think gaining that much ac and still being semi mobile is very worth it.

[ShadowFlash]

I don't believe there is a conflict as they are bonuses to different aspects

1) DoS is a Sacred Strength Bonus
2) Divine Might is a Sacred Bonus to Damage and not a Strength Bonus

If both were a bonus to the same attribute then yes we may have a stacking issue, but they each boost a different attribute.

D'Oh...good catch...my bad...thinking it'd be pretty borked if it didn't stack...lol

[Enoach]

D'Oh...good catch...my bad...thinking it'd be pretty borked if it didn't stack...lol

I agree it would have been borked, if it did not stack.

[simo0208]

Wouldn't it make sense to give armor a base threat level? Then if you're tanking, you'll always want heavy armor over PJs, and if you go dps you can switch out to the cloth and be just fine.

Just a thought.

[Enoach]

Wouldn't it make sense to give armor a base threat level? Then if you're tanking, you'll always want heavy armor over PJs, and if you go dps you can switch out to the cloth and be just fine.

Just a thought.

Its not function, its "Looking the Part" :) I like the idea...