Help with my first rogue

[SensaiRyu]

Simple... I've looked at other builds. Am I doing anything blatantly wrong?
And please don't say Drow :D Took drow cuz someone has to play the race and I drew the short straw :p and for the SR.

Build goals - str assassin. 400+hp with end-game equips. Good assassinating DC. Disarm traps.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(20 Rogue)
Hit Points: 284
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 15
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 20
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 14 18
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 13
Diplomacy 4 24
Disable Device 6 27
Jump 6 25
Move Silently 6 34
Open Lock 6 26
Search 6 29
Spot 2 25
Tumble 3 13
Use Magic Device 4 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I

Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CON
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II

Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV

Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III

Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense IV

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I

Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II

Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV

Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III

Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III

Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II

[SpearKicker]

I dont usually play with rogues. Anyway, I couldnt notice any major problem in the build. Except that I would not get toughness twice in a full rogue. I would rather get something else like Hamstring.

The only major problem see that you get this build to a totally gimp position is that its a Drow build. But something seems to say that you will not agree with me at this... :D

[delsoboss]

Since it doens't seem you're focusing on your will save you may want to switch Slippery Mind (don't give your save the opportunity to suck twice) with Skill Mastery (+1 to all skills, UMD included).

EDIT: Looking at enhancements you don't need Improved Trapsense up to rank IV, probably you don't need rank I even: rogues get a bonus to save against traps that increases with level ups (maxed at +6 at level 20) and your 15 reflex can be a 27 without too much investment (+5 resistance item, +3 from a +6 dex item, +4 from GH) so 33 against traps.
You can use the spare APs gained from ditching the Trapsense line to get the haste boost up to rank IV. Haste boost is a fundamental enhancement for rogues: more attacks = more sneak attacks = win

[karl_k0ch]

Simple... I've looked at other builds. Am I doing anything blatantly wrong?
Although I sense an awareness for HP, which is good, I think that you are emphazing Con too much in favor of Str.

15 Con on a Drow is a sizable investment. 14 will work, too. If you feel confident enough, consider dropping it to 12. Two Toughness enhancements is an unusal, but not bad decision. Alternatives to the second toughness include: OTWF, SF: UMD, Quickdraw.

Int could be dropped by 1 or 2, if needed.

Put all level ups in Str.

I wouldn't use two weapons before you get ITWF. This way, you could front-load Toughness, and possibly PA.

I'd prefer Skill Mastery over Slippery Mind, possibly even over Crippling Strike.

Currently, Haste Boost provides a better damage increase than the Damage Boost. You could drop Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV and the Improved Trap sense.
Also, the racial Weapons are missing.

More info in the thread linked in my sig.

HP estimate, with 14 starting Con.

20 Heroic
10 Draconic
120 Con (22 Con 14 base + 6 Item + 2 tome)
120 Rogue
22 single Toughness
30 GFL
45 shroud HP item
20 Toughness Item
20 Toughness Enhancements
---
407 standing.

14 Con, no double Toughness. It's doable.

[SensaiRyu]

Thanks for the help!

Some quick responses: I take 4 str and 1 con lvl ups. 1 con to even it out.

I played around with starting abilities - dropping con by one gives me one str and 1ap left. Didn't want to drop con by 2. With end-game equips I'm dropping the +1 str mod I'd get for the 20 extra hp.

As for the extra toughness feat - I didn't know what else to take. Moved PA up to lvl 6 and took OTWF at lvl 18. This drops me down 22HP.

Dropped 1 rank in subtle backstabbing IV. Maxed haste boost and brought skill boost up to II.

At the moment I'm hesitating on dropping trap sense below III (or even IV) - my monk gets trap evades up around 40 and still has trap problems in elite and epic. Won't I have the same problems as a rogue?

41 trap saves = 15 base +3 equips +4 gh +5 resistance +6 rogue +8 trap sense IV.

Some respec'ing I end up with 2 ap I dump into disable device. Keep trap sense IV (for the moment), max haste boost and add one rank to skill boost. I keep forgetting that skill boost would help UMD on my HElf toons.

Back to trap sense ... and racial enhancements I'm not taking. Didn't think +1 or +2 racial dmg was a build breaker.

What do Rogues do for elite/epic trap saves? Die? I watched one rogue fail his von trap save and my monk had to go get his stone.

Here's the updated build - thanks for the great suggestions.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(20 Rogue)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 15
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 20
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 14 18
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 14
Diplomacy 4 25
Disable Device 6 30
Hide 6 35
Jump 6 26
Move Silently 6 35
Open Lock 6 27
Search 6 30
Spot 2 26
Tumble 3 14
Use Magic Device 4 25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I

Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CON

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II

Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV

Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III

Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense IV

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV

Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II

Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV

Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III

Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III

Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II

[.Revenga.]

i'd drop con to 14 in favor of some more strenght aswell, especially if you take another thoughness feat.

Also taking the full haste boost line is much more intresting then maxing out the damage boost line. But you'll be able to play with your enhancements as you progress and learn about the class

[SensaiRyu]

More info in the thread linked in my sig.


I read that thread - it was the best rogue overall threads I found on rogues. Helped me a lot.

[karl_k0ch]

Your reason to go 15 Con and get one level up in Con seems to be the following:
odd starting value + odd level up + even tome = even.

But then, there are more items which give additional, odd con values: +3 tome, litany, exceptional Con, +7 con item. On your build, you will only get an advantage off these things if you have none, two or four of them. If you start with 14 Con, for example, one and three of these will give you the benefit of putting you at the same HP level as with 15 Con. Only having an even number will give you an actual benefit hp-wise over the 14 variant.

The same is true for an odd Str value at level 20. It's not the end of the world, as there are multiple end-game items to even it out.

[Viciouspika]

Personally, I would switch the twf and toughness feat unless you are creating a verteran character that starts out a level 4. If, as a drow, you are using rapiers as primary weapons, I would take some of the racial weapon enhancements to increase damage. As others have said, I would drop the trap sense enhancements and take skill boost up to IV to get the traps in epics.

I have two lvl 20 characters that are acrobats that run epics on occasion. With only 13 lvls of rogue, I make the reflex saves most of the times. With 400 + hp, you should be able to survive one hit. The second usually kills. Other then that you build looks sound. Have fun.

[Feithlin]

I second Karl_K0ch into droping Con to 14 and increase Str. Raising Str does not only raise your damage by 1, but also your to-hit. In the situations where you don't hit on a '1', this +1 means you will hit 5% more, i.e. do 5% more dps. By raising Str to 15, you still have 1 attribute point to play with. You could reduce Int to 13 to increase Str further to 16, or perhaps increase Dex to 16, to require only a +1 dex tome to open the full TWF line, or increase Int to 15 and slot a +1 eInt for +1 to assassinate DCs.

[karl_k0ch]

I second Karl_K0ch into droping Con to 14 and increase Str. Raising Str does not only raise your damage by 1, but also your to-hit. In the situations where you don't hit on a '2', this +1 means you will hit 5% more, i.e. do 5% more dps. By raising Str to 15, you still have 1 attribute point to play with. You could reduce Int to 13 to increase Str further to 16, or perhaps increase Dex to 16, to require only a +1 dex tome to open the full TWF line, or increase Int to 15 and slot a +1 eInt for +1 to assassinate DCs.

ftfy. 1 is an auto-miss.

[drobbins]

Well, I hate to say it but drow is the biggest problem here. Honestly, I would abandon the notion you are going to be a Str build with a 28-point drow. Plan to greater reincarnate ASAP - if not TR - and you will have a greater chance at accomplishing that.

Personally, with these stats, as a drow, I would put more into INT and DEX, losing STR. Again, you simply are NOT going to be a STR build this go around, so you are wasting points and gimping the stats you need to make up for it. Plan to go Finesse until you can cap and then TR or GR.

Oh, and just so you know, your assassinate DCs are NOT going to be great starting at a 14, despite what you think. Perhaps at lower levels, maybe, but in epics you should just plan on getting lucky if you want to assassinate. I've got a double-TRed pure rogue, and I went pure each life, and my assassinate is at a 42, will be 44 once update 11 hits (and a STR of 33, before you ask), and stuff still makes its save about 25% of the time - well, it depends on what the mob is, really.

Granted, I've got a lot of gear and time invested to get there, so don't think of those stats as a benchmark of some kind. The point I'm simply trying to make is that you've got to be realistic: if you plan on using assassinate effectively, don't gimp the stat that it uses; likewise, if you want to be STR based, don't be one of the most gimped races in the game (the SR? really? it's useless ... ). Right now, you're best bet to be effective is to go DEX/finesse until you cap, then reincarnate that sucker. You'll still have fun, you'll still do decent DPS, so just enjoy it and plan on the journey being a long one.

[drobbins]

Personally, I would switch the twf and toughness feat unless you are creating a verteran character that starts out a level 4. If, as a drow, you are using rapiers as primary weapons, I would take some of the racial weapon enhancements to increase damage. As others have said, I would drop the trap sense enhancements and take skill boost up to IV to get the traps in epics.

I have two lvl 20 characters that are acrobats that run epics on occasion. With only 13 lvls of rogue, I make the reflex saves most of the times. With 400 + hp, you should be able to survive one hit. The second usually kills. Other then that you build looks sound. Have fun.

Ditto on losing the Trap Sense ... epic traps are not hard. Just run with a bard.

[Battlehawke]

I would drop Con to 14 and intel to 12 and put str at 16. With tour HP I hope you have a plan for self healing. you are goung to have a hard time hitting with PA on and a moderae STR. I would drop PA or Crippping Strike (tough choice) and tae skill focus: UMD so you can use Teleprt, Heal, & Rez scrolls. 40 UMD is your goal.

Also, I know your heart is set on Drow, but dwarf could get you over 500 HP and Dwarven Axes are better vs Bosses. Your 2nd build is good, but there us NO fun in having to be constantly rezzed.

[drobbins]

I would drop Con to 14 and intel to 12 and put str at 16. With tour HP I hope you have a plan for self healing. you are goung to have a hard time hitting with PA on and a moderae STR. I would drop PA or Crippping Strike (tough choice) and tae skill focus: UMD so you can use Teleprt, Heal, & Rez scrolls. 40 UMD is your goal.

Also, I know your heart is set on Drow, but dwarf could get you over 500 HP and Dwarven Axes are better vs Bosses. Your 2nd build is good, but there us NO fun in having to be constantly rezzed.

I have to disagree with all of this - except for the skill focus UMD.

If we were giving advice for an experienced rogue who wasn't a drow or 28 pt build, I would say I've seen lots of people take builds similar to the one you suggest Battle, and they do OK ... their assassinate DCs suck and they still blow boxes on occasion, but they are OK. If that's what you like then more power to you ... but given he is not experienced as an endgame rogue yet, and since he has yet to learn what a poor decision drow was, it just seems futile to try and make a STR based toon out of all the wrong parts. Play the advantages, IMO; dex and finesse until you can TR.

Oh, and elves can hit 500hp easily. I don't have to shame my momma by going Dwarf to get there ... :p

[cmdviperlss]

[QUOTE=SensaiRyu;4020478]Simple... I've looked at other builds. Am I doing anything blatantly wrong?
And please don't say Drow :D Took drow cuz someone has to play the race and I drew the short straw :p and for the SR.

Build goals - str assassin. 400+hp with end-game equips. Good assassinating DC. Disarm traps.


Remeber U11 will add heavy fort in end bossses so keep that in mind.

[Kinerd]

Oh, and just so you know, your assassinate DCs are NOT going to be great starting at a 14, despite what you think. Perhaps at lower levels, maybe, but in epics you should just plan on getting lucky if you want to assassinate. I've got a double-TRed pure rogue, and I went pure each life, and my assassinate is at a 42, will be 44 once update 11 hits (and a STR of 33, before you ask), and stuff still makes its save about 25% of the time - well, it depends on what the mob is, really.I think you're being overly pessimistic. My wizard doesn't have higher than 42 Necro DC, and I'm very satisfied with his instant kill ability in epics. Now, certainly he's got a lot more instant kill tools to work with, but they're still Fortitude saves.
In the situations where you don't hit on a '1', this +1 means you will hit 5% more, i.e. do 5% more dps.This is not quite true. Because the third and fourth attack animations are at +5 and +10 to-hit respectively, you would really only hit 2.5% more. This would also not translate directly to DPS. Ignoring the first point for a moment and assuming no Seeker:

1-2: miss
3-14: normal hit
15-20: 90% chance of critical hit
total: 2 * 0 + 12 * base + 6 * (90% * 2 * base + 10% * 1 * base) = 23.4 * base

1: miss
2-14: normal hit
15-20: 95% chance of critical hit
total: 1 * 0 + 13 * base + 6 * (95% * 2 * base + 5% * 1 * base) = 24.7 * base

24.7 / 23.4 = 5.5%

Adding in Seeker (even a mere +2) changes it to 25 / 24 = 4.2%.

[Battlehawke]

I often am caught up in this conversation between what an OP is asking for because he/she wants to build a certain build and what other people chime in on and say that it can't be that way and the the OP should build the optimum DPS build.

For me, when it comes to any toon in DDO, the optimum build is a build with lots of HP, mostly, because the way this game is built, all you need to do to survive in most epic battles is to have enough HP to give the Healer time to heal you in between hits. So, the more HP, the better your DPS is ultimately, because if you are dead, then your DPS = Zero!!! If you are constantly dieing, then mana is being wasted over and over to buff you. If you are constantly dieing, it becomes very frustrating for everyone involved, especially the player playing the crappy toon.

If you can manage to do damage, have great saves with improved evasion and have a great AC, then that is awesome. If you can't, then you have to balance it, and again, HP is the most important category.

Also, there is this Illusion that a Assassin needs to be a great One Shot Killer with a high Assassinate DC. While that is great, it is COMPLETELY USELESS IN MOST END FIGHTS AND EPIC QUESTS!!!! The ultimate reason for going assassin in the current game is so that you can add that extra sneak damage to your DPS. Listen, I would love to see a rogue sneak in to a Boss fight while the party sits back licking its wounds and Assassinate the Boss with one hit, but it's just not going to happen. So, lets get real and forget about the Assassinate DC until it is fixed or the game changes it, because for now, it's not what it needs to be.

If you want a rogue that you can enjoy playing, it needs to have a great amount of HP.

As for the difference between a 12 and 14 Intel, 12 is enough to get you max in Open L, Disable, Spot, Search, UMD, Bluff, Sneak and Hide and One other skill.....

The guy wants a Drow and he has his mind made up about what he wants to build as is the situation in most of these posts. We can guide him in the right direction and reduce the frustration of playing a gimped rogue. He has improved his rogue and will continue to do so. He will learn. I have 4 level 20 rogues, of which only two are pure. I have played DDO for 6 years, and unlike most people I actually like to play my rogues. It's his toon and he can play anyway he likes. He doesn't have to build YOUR Rogue or the best rogue.

Let's just relax and play the game that we love.

[danielhrobbins]

I often am caught up in this conversation between what an OP is asking for because he/she wants to build a certain build and what other people chime in on and say that it can't be that way and the the OP should build the optimum DPS build.

For me, when it comes to any toon in DDO, the optimum build is a build with lots of HP, mostly, because the way this game is built, all you need to do to survive in most epic battles is to have enough HP to give the Healer time to heal you in between hits. So, the more HP, the better your DPS is ultimately, because if you are dead, then your DPS = Zero!!! If you are constantly dieing, then mana is being wasted over and over to buff you. If you are constantly dieing, it becomes very frustrating for everyone involved, especially the player playing the crappy toon.

If you can manage to do damage, have great saves with improved evasion and have a great AC, then that is awesome. If you can't, then you have to balance it, and again, HP is the most important category.

Also, there is this Illusion that a Assassin needs to be a great One Shot Killer with a high Assassinate DC. While that is great, it is COMPLETELY USELESS IN MOST END FIGHTS AND EPIC QUESTS!!!! The ultimate reason for going assassin in the current game is so that you can add that extra sneak damage to your DPS. Listen, I would love to see a rogue sneak in to a Boss fight while the party sits back licking its wounds and Assassinate the Boss with one hit, but it's just not going to happen. So, lets get real and forget about the Assassinate DC until it is fixed or the game changes it, because for now, it's not what it needs to be.

If you want a rogue that you can enjoy playing, it needs to have a great amount of HP.

As for the difference between a 12 and 14 Intel, 12 is enough to get you max in Open L, Disable, Spot, Search, UMD, Bluff, Sneak and Hide and One other skill.....

The guy wants a Drow and he has his mind made up about what he wants to build as is the situation in most of these posts. We can guide him in the right direction and reduce the frustration of playing a gimped rogue. He has improved his rogue and will continue to do so. He will learn. I have 4 level 20 rogues, of which only two are pure. I have played DDO for 6 years, and unlike most people I actually like to play my rogues. It's his toon and he can play anyway he likes. He doesn't have to build YOUR Rogue or the best rogue.

Let's just relax and play the game that we love.

Well, I agree with you assassinate is not the main advantage of a rogue; you're right that dps is the name of the game, and I do plenty (usually lead the kill count, and no, I'm not dying constantly, with 509 hp on an elf) ... I just feel it is too often overlooked by the "dump int" crowd as a very handy tool, who typically have the same pessimism about survivablity as you do ... and I dont blame you, there are so many **** poor rogues - or rather, **** poor players - on their rogues.

Nevertheless, while we disagree with builds, I do agree with your underlying point very much, that it is all about having fun ... and rogues are so much fun because they can be built to awesome-ness so many ways. Of course, it might make us a little stubborn about what is the most awesome part about being so awesome, but hey, it's all good ... just have fun.

[Grace_ana]

Play the drow; seriously it isn't the end of the world and you will be fine. I'd agree you should ditch slippery mind and take a skill focus in UMD - UMD is the most fabulous skill to have at end game, trust me. In fact, it's nice to have even earlier because you can use a lot of gear that would otherwise be specced out. You also won't need the extra action boosts or the trap sense. I personally maxed out the disable and search lines, and put several ap in spot and open lock as well. I didn't want to be blowing traps on epic, and I don't. I've never needed more action boosts and never missed the trap sense stuff, especially with imp evasion. You'll want those rogue skill enhancements earlier though. IIRC around lvl 8-12 can be tough on them if you don't, because your gear hasn't caught up with the dc's, especially since you didn't put much in wis/dex/int. A rogue isn't just a trapsmith, but all rogues should be able to handle traps at level.

[SensaiRyu]

Play the drow; seriously it isn't the end of the world and you will be fine. I'd agree you should ditch slippery mind and take a skill focus in UMD - UMD is the most fabulous skill to have at end game, trust me. In fact, it's nice to have even earlier because you can use a lot of gear that would otherwise be specced out. You also won't need the extra action boosts or the trap sense. I personally maxed out the disable and search lines, and put several ap in spot and open lock as well. I didn't want to be blowing traps on epic, and I don't. I've never needed more action boosts and never missed the trap sense stuff, especially with imp evasion. You'll want those rogue skill enhancements earlier though. IIRC around lvl 8-12 can be tough on them if you don't, because your gear hasn't caught up with the dc's, especially since you didn't put much in wis/dex/int. A rogue isn't just a trapsmith, but all rogues should be able to handle traps at level.

Foremost - thanks for all the discussions. I do appreciate it - even the arguments are informative. I can't tell you how much this is helping. Well I probably could and just don't want to... :D

First a thought about Drow... I spec'd a 32 point HElf first. Then I spec'd drow and compared. Stats were different by 1 - in con. Drow's get +2 int, dex, cha and -2 con. Drow's get 30 points to SR and I don't always get SR in quests. So I have a bit of extra resistance against some spells. This isn't my only reason for Drow; just another one.

Everybody says drop trap sense... While it seems anathema to me, I'll add more to disable/search instead. If I can't disable in epics I'm worthless. Thanks for beating me down on this. I'll do it.

Along this line I also am noticing that I'm running into some traps instead of spotting them. Assuming this is spot, I can add a few more points into this ehn on the way up. - I'll have enuf without trap sense. I can get good equips for my lvls by running my other toons and collecting the rogue drops or looking in the AH.

On to Assassinate. I'll easily have a 40 DC to assassinate. I can add lvl ups into int to increase this by 2. One issue brought up is whether I'd be able to get the DC up high enuf. I haven't seen gobs of recent posts on epic assassinate DC. One stated 46 in epic was good. With a 22base int +6 item +2exc +2cap +2ship +2yugo is a 43 DC. I probably won't do this... just throwing it out there.

With assassinate DC comes the next argument - if I can't hit it, a 100 DC is worthless. My to hit will have +13 in equip/buff bonuses = +5str +3item +1ship +1yugo +2(to hit shimmering arrowhead) +1rage pot. Don't know if this is enuf or not. I do know my monk has no problems hitting and his base str is about 24.

Taking more str than dex frees up a feat - skill: UMD or even an extra toughness. This is a solid argument for going a bit more str. Gimping dex means lower AC (but by only a few points), lower reflex, and lower open locks. And I'm expecting whatever I'm hitting is hitting something else - or I'm doing it wrong.

As a side note, I noticed that U11 changes to a % to damage boost enhancements: 10% to 25%. This means taking both rogue damage and is good.

[Mercureal]

This is coming a bit late, but I'd also say that you can do fine with Drow. Drow is gimped only in the sense that it can't get the highest STR or HP, but you can easily build a Drow rogue that is plenty powerful enough.

On Spot skill levels, in general I find that the Spot check for traps is a bit lower than Search, roughly 2/3 to 3/4 for most traps.

On DEX v. STR, I'd definitely say favour STR. As you noted, it lets you drop Weapon Finesse, and the only loss from lower DEX is some points in your Reflex save - which can be boosted in lots of ways. Rogues don't need AC and generally can't get one that's useful beyond level 6 or 7 anyway, and open locks is mostly gear and the die roll, e.g.:

Level 10 Character Open Lock Skill

- 7 ranks (4 at creation, plus 1 every other level up to 7)
- 6 from +4 Thieves Tools (available at the Free Agent vendor once you have the favour)
- 4 from 18 Dex (which is fairly low)
- 1 Voice of the Master trinket from Delera's Tomb
- 2 from Heroism (potion or clickie item)
- 3 from rogue skill boost enhancement
- 7 from Open Locks skill boost item

= 30 base, plus results of d20 roll
= 31-51 OL skill