artificers and paladins in u11

[LiquidShadow]

Silver Weapons
School: Transmutation
Level: Art 5
Cost: 30 SP
Components: V, S, M
Effect: Your target's currently equipped weapons gain the ability to bypass Silver damage reduction. An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.
Realy??? are those horc barbarians and fighters need more dmg boost? or is it working only on non epic weapons that doesnt have red augument slot like greensteel?

This spell and its modifications (cold iron and others) makes paladin capstone and crystals from epic devil assault worthless imo. I could actualy understand if it would work like fvs and his crown of retribution. But if it works on every weapon for everyone in party it just kills the game for paladins and some monks.

Yes you will say that only 1 weapon infusion works but is there any other that gives u +30 dmg per swing on epic? deadly weapons doesnt look like one of those.

Its not that hard to predict what will happen if this goes live. Already rare paladins will be gone, LFMs only for ESOS barbs, fighters and some random casters (forget about monks, rangers and paladins). cannith crafting will become less important.
Everyone will need just one ESOS with good crystal in red slot and artificer in order to be able to break DR of any raid boss.

Giving every class except paladin and monk a huge boost and a minor boost to those 2 is not a good idea imo.
Monks are already popular but paladins could use some boost. Here is some nice idea about divine might improvement:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=335251



Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer
Changing DM to be +10%/15%/20%/25% to damage seems overpowered at first... but then I remember we're talking about paladins...

Whats your thoughts on that? some dev comment would be much appreciated

[Indoran]

paladins need a boost mostly because people dont know how to run them... whenever I see a paladin running around a level 15+ quest with a shield on without needing or being a tank... I cry for the class...

Shield pallies are a 95% of the time GIMPS.

I only know 1 shield pally that's a worth addition to a party...

[LiquidShadow]

paladins need a boost mostly because people dont know how to run them... whenever I see a paladin running around a level 15+ quest with a shield on without needing or being a tank... I cry for the class...

Shield pallies are a 95% of the time GIMPS.

I only know 1 shield pally that's a worth addition to a party...

well thats different problem but i agree with you. and i didnt mention anything about shield in my previous post... it was about ESOS users
Anyway paladins shine when equipped with good epic weapon like sos cause they can still bypass DR of raid bosses while other classes cant... untill artificers appear

[orakio]

Please check out

http://ddowiki.com/page/Deadly_Weapons

They get silver helping bypass DR you get +1(base weapon damage) which means +5d6 more damage a swing with an ESoS. Not too bad a tradeoff is it.

[LiquidShadow]

Please check out

http://ddowiki.com/page/Deadly_Weapons

They get silver helping bypass DR you get +1(base weapon damage) which means +5d6 more damage a swing with an ESoS. Not too bad a tradeoff is it.

which means:
they get +30 every hit (top dps classes)
paladin get +17,5 average (average dps class)

[dkyle]

Please check out

http://ddowiki.com/page/Deadly_Weapons

They get silver helping bypass DR you get +1(base weapon damage) which means +5d6 more damage a swing with an ESoS. Not too bad a tradeoff is it.

That might not happen (or might not remain):


We *are* considering an across the board change to epic weapons to treat all tier one epics as having a +1(Base Weapon Damage) effect on them inherently and setting them back to normal base damage for their weapon type*, in which case Epic Thornlord would be 1d8+2 with +1(Base Weapon Damage), so would deal 2d8+4 damage on normal shots, and 3d8+6 damage on point blank shot hits. That base damage improvement would roll through crits as expected.

If we went with that change, then as a tier two epic weapon, the Epic Sword of Shadows would be a 2d6 weapon with an inherent +1.5(Base Weapon Damage), for a total of 5d6 base damage.

So, in this case, Deadly Weapons would only add 2d6.



which means:
they get +30 every hit (top dps classes)
paladin get +17,5 average (average dps class)

There's still quite a bit of value in being able to break DR with your ESoS without outside assistance. And the benefit was already somewhat marginalized by the eDA crystals.

But I agree that Palis could use some help. Ever since Devil Raids stopped being the sole focus of the end-game, Palis have been suffering.

[TheDjinnFor]

Yes you will say that only 1 weapon infusion works but is there any other that gives u +30 dmg per swing on epic? deadly weapons doesnt look like one of those.

If you already break DR somehow, Deadly Weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deadly_Weapons) is the next best alternative as it increases the base damage dice of your weapon. So an ESoS that can break DR already gets +5d6 damage per swing with Deadly Weapons, which is a little over half of what an ESoS that can't break DR on elite gets with Silver Weapons.

Edit: Already said.

[Xenostrata]

If you already break DR somehow, Deadly Weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deadly_Weapons) is the next best alternative as it increases the base damage dice of your weapon. So an ESoS that can break DR already gets +5d6 damage per swing with Deadly Weapons, which is a little over half of what an ESoS that can't break DR on elite gets with Silver Weapons.

Edit: Already said.

First off, I maintain that giving what was once an exclusive paladin ability to anyone with an artificer is a bad idea, especially considering how much the other classes are also getting that paladins aren't.
Secondly, someone pointed out that it would only be 2d6, so your looking at 7 extra damage per swing for paladins and 15(n), 25(h), 35(elite), and 30(epic) extra damage per swing for everyone else.
Considering that all KotC+Capstone+ToD set gives a paladin against evil outsiders is on average 35 NON-CRITTABLE damage, and that against elite horoth that eSoS wielding barb is getting the SAME bonus from the artificer, paladins need a buff or artificer should no longer have DR breaking spells.

[TheDjinnFor]

Secondly, someone pointed out that it would only be 2d6, so your looking at 7 extra damage per swing for paladins and 15(n), 25(h), 35(elite), and 30(epic) extra damage per swing for everyone else.

They said they're "thinking" of it, not that it actually happened yet.

[Ziindarax]

That might not happen (or might not remain):



So, in this case, Deadly Weapons would only add 2d6.




There's still quite a bit of value in being able to break DR with your ESoS without outside assistance. And the benefit was already somewhat marginalized by the eDA crystals.

But I agree that Palis could use some help. Ever since Devil Raids stopped being the sole focus of the end-game, Palis have been suffering.

I hope they don't do this change with the epic weapons because the bosses are becoming harder rather than easier. Would there be any way to upgrade weapons from their tiers, or are they "stuck" there?

Also, what thread did he post that in? Link?

[Dendrix]

I have 2 comments:

1) Pallys don't need the silver, they can have a damage augmentation instead.

2) What do all those people do if there ISN'T an artificier on the raid?

[Chronotrip]

/signed

that spell looks a little OP to me, and by little, I mean a metric EFFFFF ton.

I agree, Pallys need a boost, although I do agree that most people that think that pallys are gimp think that for the same reason they think that rogues are gimp, because they have only ever run with poor/newer players of that class.

IMHO Monk, Rogue and Pally are the easiest classes to get wrong, both with the build, and with the play style.

I think that the pally cap stone should also make their weapons silver, cold iron and Lawful for the purpose of bypassing DR. This makes since as that is the DR breakers of the Evil outsiders that they specialize in dealing with. This would allow them to bypass the DR of Demons, Devils and those pesky epic Hounds in Epic VoN 2 and whats its. This would also allow them to use the red slot for +7.... which is kinda meh but still every little bit helps, unless of course you are talking ESOS instead of Chaosblade or Dynastic Falcata, which is why it should be changed to +1 enhancement so then an ESOS could be a +11 weapon.

Pallys should also regain Exalted smites much faster, like one per every ten secs or something like that, I think that If a pally could endlessly toggle between spams of Divine Sacrifices and Exalted smites for the whole time during a Harry or DQ bashing, that would go a LONG way towards making them close to what a Barb and or Fighter can out put.

It should be noted that I personally think that a Pally should NEVER be equal in terms of DPS to a fighter, you have to realize that they get 4 lay on hands and if you build them right can have awesome UMD and can heal themselves with spells, you have to balance the classes. If Pallys COULD do the SAME dps as a Fighter, then what would be the point of being a fighter, Pallys would be better because of self healing + awesome saves.

I also think that if you look at Barb Dps charts(not sure how reliable those are....), then Barbs did need a boost, but I think that with the changes to Dmg boost, Barbs might actually surpass fighters now :O. Again I don't think that a Barb should be equal to a Fighter because Barbs have MAJOR HP advantages over Fighters. If Dev's want Fighter and Barb dps to be about equal, then Fighters better get a much much better bonus to their tactics like Trip, sunder and stun, to make up for it. Again its all about Balancing.

I think that if you changed Dmg boost to be 5% 10% 15% 20% then that would be a little more reasonable.

As to the subject at hand which I have strayed from, I think that since most of the Arties spells that affect weapons only affect Cross bows and Single handed weapons, that this should Too :D. This solves the ESOS dilemma. Then all the khopesh Fighters would get DR Breaking Epic Chaosblades!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!

[waterboytkd]

I have 2 comments:

1) Pallys don't need the silver, they can have a damage augmentation instead.

2) What do all those people do if there ISN'T an artificier on the raid?

This. Self-sufficient, self-contained toons are nice. Toons that need to be babysat and buffed through the roof to keep effective are annoying.

A Pally with an ESoS is still gonna find value out of their capstone, value over a barb with an ESoS.

[Hydro]

My Divine Might 3 WF Pally with max STR and an epic SoS is still low on the DPS scale for anything except evil outsiders compared to my Barb or Monk.

[Claymorep]

Pallies are in ABSOLUTE NEED of something more in U11 or they will be putted as a funny to play class, nothing more.

Considerations:
-Barb damage boosts: Will give barbarians a great improve vs other classes, moreover it is a pre required bonus, so it was contemplated in every build yet.
-Human (helf) damage boost: It can be fitted in any fighter or splashed dps build with minimal effort (as every fighter or blitz contemplate haste boosts and extra action boosts, infact all build will have 10-15 boosts).
-Artificers: They can give all dps builds dr breaking weapons, so the last bastion of pally advantage is lost...

Solutions:
Fit human damage boost into pallies, but at the cost of 10 ap (for only 5 action boosts) in a starved stats, feats, ap, slots and more class like a pally is an "alchimist" way for 5 damage boosts (i'd like to focalize the attention that all dps pallyes ap are a no requirment for the pre intensive ap cost kotc instead of barb...).

Conclusion:
To sustain a match versus others dps builds (considering evil outsiders only!) a pally need to focalize only on dps ap and is not able to do anything else (read auras, ha, stats, lays).
If You want to mantain the only advantage vs other classes (versatility) You have to stay near 25% back (if not more) other dps builds.
All this for the hardest all-required (items, build, etc.) class of the game and stress playing one (continuous clicking and player ability).
If we add pally need another 30 second clicking I think we'll loose soon a class...

Just for reference: I'm the only player in my guild (a focused endgame/epic players only guild) that play a pally (noone play it as secondary alt too) as in the game of min/max endgame noone will invest so much in a always-left-back class. I'm nearly sure I'll lost a lot about my enthusiasm in this game if something will not be done soon...

[Chronotrip]

This. Self-sufficient, self-contained toons are nice. Toons that need to be babysat and buffed through the roof to keep effective are annoying.

A Pally with an ESoS is still gonna find value out of their capstone, value over a barb with an ESoS.

I Respectfully have to disagree, there is no value to a capstone that can be gained by anyone of any class simply by using a Red Augment crystal of Devils ruin, and you can't even say that those are rare or uncommon now because people sell them all day for ~1-2 FRDS. Anyone can get them easy, I have 3 and only have pulled one and got the other two for a reasonable deal.

The pally capstone needs to be tweaked or Pallys need to get a boost in some other way, because as of late they have been getting bent over. I TR'ed my Main into a Pally because I have an Epic Chaosblade and was thinking, Yeah now I can put silver on it, be a pure pally and By pass DR, only problem is, I could be a Pure Fighter and By pass DR with a crystal, so whats the point in being a pally any more if other classes do more dmg and can still bypass DR?

If they gave Barbs haste boost then they would surly be the unquestioned gods of DPS, if Horc fighters could use Dmg boost and Haste boost at the same time then no one would question that it was OP, yet here they are Pimping out one of the all time BEST capstones in the game and no one cares, sad really.

[Xenostrata]

I have 2 comments:

1) Pallys don't need the silver, they can have a damage augmentation instead.
Except that the damage augmentation will be boosting paladins by about half what the DR infusions do (at MOST). Paladins are already behind DPS wise, they don't need to get sent even further back.

2) What do all those people do if there ISN'T an artificier on the raid?
How often exactly do you see this happening? Artificers appear to be proving quite popular, and I think this statement will become kind of like saying "What do all those people do if there isn't an arcane for haste?" Worst case, wait an extra 5 minutes for one to join. Or, in the case of guild runs, just have someone switch into an art.

Yep, comments.

[Chai]

People overexagerating and crying doom before it even goes live. Like every barbarian and fighter will have their own little pocket ArtySquires® with them at all times just to necessitate the convenience of having silver DR breakers. When there isnt an artificer on the raid, then what?

[Xenostrata]

People overexagerating and crying doom before it even goes live. Like every barbarian and fighter will have their own little pocket ArtySquires® with them at all times just to necessitate the convenience of having silver DR breakers. When there isnt an artificer on the raid, then what?

People keep saying this, almost like all the artificer threads are going "meh - underpowered and boring." Just how few artificers do you think there are going to be?

If you would allow me to quote myself,
How often exactly do you see this happening? Artificers appear to be proving quite popular, and I think this statement will become kind of like saying "What do all those people do if there isn't an arcane for haste?" Worst case, wait an extra 5 minutes for one to join. Or, in the case of guild runs, just have someone switch into an art.

Any cheap spell that renders an already underpowered class' capstone redundant is overpowered, and if Turbine is intent on keeping it then they need to buff paladins to make up for it.

[waterboytkd]

Yep, comments.

So, Pallys are behind, dps-wise. Does that mean artificer needs to be nerfed, because he can help out other melee classes? Or do Pallys just need to be amped up?

Personally, I'd much prefer amping Pallies than nerfing a brand new class...

[Xenostrata]

So, Pallys are behind, dps-wise. Does that mean artificer needs to be nerfed, because he can help out other melee classes? Or do Pallys just need to be amped up?

Personally, I'd much prefer amping Pallies than nerfing a brand new class...

Considering the fact that turbine has boosted everything except pally, and given the paladins best aspect to be distributed to the masses, I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to allow paladins to keep their individual abilities to themselves. Also,

Any cheap spell that renders an already underpowered class' capstone redundant is overpowered, and if Turbine is intent on keeping it then they need to buff paladins to make up for it.

[noinfo]

Realy??? are those horc barbarians and fighters need more dmg boost? or is it working only on non epic weapons that doesnt have red augument slot like greensteel?

This spell and its modifications (cold iron and others) makes paladin capstone and crystals from epic devil assault worthless imo. I could actualy understand if it would work like fvs and his crown of retribution. But if it works on every weapon for everyone in party it just kills the game for paladins and some monks.

Yes you will say that only 1 weapon infusion works but is there any other that gives u +30 dmg per swing on epic? deadly weapons doesnt look like one of those.

Its not that hard to predict what will happen if this goes live. Already rare paladins will be gone, LFMs only for ESOS barbs, fighters and some random casters (forget about monks, rangers and paladins). cannith crafting will become less important.
Everyone will need just one ESOS with good crystal in red slot and artificer in order to be able to break DR of any raid boss.

Giving every class except paladin and monk a huge boost and a minor boost to those 2 is not a good idea imo.
Monks are already popular but paladins could use some boost. Here is some nice idea about divine might improvement:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=335251



Whats your thoughts on that? some dev comment would be much appreciated

Sorry this is not what puts pallys behind everyone else. This should be a small bonus not the be all and end all for pallys it currently is.

Some suggestions would be:
Lower the ap costs of several pally abilities
Give them str enhancement line as well as char
Give them damage boost enhancements the same as a barb
Get them a holy avenger in a way that levels with the pally
Give them a FE line similar to Rangers (yes Rangers need alot of luv too, different story) something NOT clickie related.
Give heavy armour wearers some benefit over medium and cloth

[Aashrym]

Considering the fact that turbine has boosted everything except pally, and given the paladins best aspect to be distributed to the masses, I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to allow paladins to keep their individual abilities to themselves. Also,

The weapon aligning spells should already be in the game, and available to FvS and cleric as well as artificer. The issue is with the only capstone available to be so specific. We need a different capstone available, not a nerf to that specific spell, because as new content does come out we either need to make the opponents all pretty much what we already have or the capstone loses value regardless.

That is the inherent flaw I see as is.

[Claymorep]

More sadness is penetrating in me...

[waterboytkd]

Any cheap spell that renders an already underpowered class' capstone redundant is overpowered, and if Turbine is intent on keeping it then they need to buff paladins to make up for it.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying pally's shouldn't be buffed up. I think they should. But, the logic that if something low level is equivalent to something admittedly underpowered at a higher levels, than the lower level thing is OP seems flawed. Rather than saying this ability of Artificers is OP, why not say that the Paladin's capstone is underpowered?

BUT, now it just feels like I'm arguing semantics, which is pointless. My personal opinion: I like the feel of the artificer. I like the idea their infusions buff your gear. I also like that they have the ability to help allies bypass DR (mostly because I think DR is a bad mechanic).

And if giving that to artificers takes away the benefits of rolling a pally, then yeah, Pally needs to be upgraded. But I do not agree that something should be taken away from artificers because it eclipses the higher level ability of an admittedly underpowered class. Instead of nerfing down to pally levels, upgrade pally to a good class.

[simo0208]

This spell will work just fine if they take all the evil outsiders out of the game. Then it will be balanced nicely.

This post brought to you by a person who's main is a non-gimped paladin.

[Claymorep]

Keep in mind, I'm not saying pally's shouldn't be buffed up. I think they should. But, the logic that if something low level is equivalent to something admittedly underpowered at a higher levels, than the lower level thing is OP seems flawed. Rather than saying this ability of Artificers is OP, why not say that the Paladin's capstone is underpowered?

BUT, now it just feels like I'm arguing semantics, which is pointless. My personal opinion: I like the feel of the artificer. I like the idea their infusions buff your gear. I also like that they have the ability to help allies bypass DR (mostly because I think DR is a bad mechanic).

And if giving that to artificers takes away the benefits of rolling a pally, then yeah, Pally needs to be upgraded. But I do not agree that something should be taken away from artificers because it eclipses the higher level ability of an admittedly underpowered class. Instead of nerfing down to pally levels, upgrade pally to a good class.

Absolutely with You!

[wootvenu]

2yrs now and i couldnot make a esos. not everyone has it nor it is easy to get imo

[Monkey_Archer]

The folly here is that the artificer weapon mods are just as irrelevant now in dps terms as the paladin capstone always has been. Paladins just aren't a dps class. They're useful for surviving, aura buffing, self healing, tanking, etc... but they just can't do dps like every other melee class can.

Paladins, over the course of DDO unlimited, have been constantly buffed and nerfed into a corner. Every buff they receive has an extremely narrow focus: KOTC only works on outsiders. Capstone only helps for pitfiends/mariliths, etc... And they have received many indirect nerfs without compensation: Removal of autocrits made smites/DS much less effective. Cannith crafting made the capstone nearly useless except for esos builds. Artificer weapon mods now even make esos paladins relatively less effective. Paladins have always been extremely limited in weapon choices as well; due to the crit multiplier increases of smite/DS they are pretty much forced to use khopesh/rapier or falchion/esos or loose the benefits of their core abilities.

Every single dps calc, ingame comparison, personal experience, etc.. (whatever you choose to measure dps by) that has a paladin competing comparably to a real dps class like barbs/fighters (even monks/rangers/multiclasses) has always assumed perfect situations for the paladin (fighting pitfiends/outsiders with an esos and nothing but pitfiends/outsiders with an esos) to help to alleviate the fact that they don't actually do any real dps to targets in the other 95% of the game.

Personally I'm not concerned in the least about artificer weapon mods and how they affect paladins since I've never really thought highly of a paladin's ability to break DR in the first place. (It doesn't actually add dps, it just allows the use of better weapons at a lower cost). IMO, the sooner the player base realizes this (and therefore stops using dps calcs of DR breaking esos paladins vs barbs with metaline daggers of pure good as justification for anything :rolleyes:) the better.

I think its sad that even perfectly geared paladins in ideal conditions against pitfiends are now being completely eclipsed by the jack-of-all-dps (barb, now thanks do damage boost), with only basic gear and without even considering artificers...

[sephiroth1084]

Good points M_A.

Any suggestions on what to do to give paladins a boost then? How do they stack up?

Barbarians:


+22 Str (Mighty Rage, Power Rage IV, Frenzy, Death Frenzy capstone and FB set bonus) for between +11 and +17 damage per swing
+6d6 Vicious damage (Frenzy + Death Frenzy) for ~21 damage per swing
Barbarian Power Attack for an additional +3 to +6 damage per swing
Likely a little more starting Str due to lack of need for other stats; +1 to +3 damage per swing
+3 to critical multipliers on 19-20 crits (can't figure in effect on damage, but it's big)
(now) Damage Boost IV for +25% boost to weapon damage (can't figure in effect on damage)
Total to-hit bonus of around +8

Fighters (Kensai):


+11 Str (Fighter Str III + Surge) for between +5 and +8 damage
Weapon specialization trees (feats, enhancements, kensai) for between +8 and +10 damage
Haste Boost IV for +30% bonus to attack speed (can't figure in effect on damage)
+1 to crit threat range with particular weapon
Total to-hit bonus of around +14 (WS lines, Kensai set bonus, Str bonuses)
+10% doublestrike from capstone
Likely a little more starting Str due to lack of need for other stats; +1 to +3 damage per swing

Paladins:


+3 damage per swing from Divine Favor
+6 to +8 damage per swing from Divine Might
+10% doublestrike from Zeal
+7d6 to +9d6 light damage about every 5 attacks for about +5 to +6 damage per swing
Exalted Smite for spikes in damage (can't figure in effect on damage)
+1d6 vs. evil targets from capstone for about +3.5 damage per swing
+2d6 vs. evil outsiders and undead from capstone for about +7 damage per swing vs. those enemies
Total to-hit bonus of +3

So barbarians are looking at around (at best) +47 damage per swing before accounting for all the boosts that are difficult to figure into an abstraction such as this, while fighters are at around +21 damage per swing before non-static bonuses, and paladins are at about +20 vs. non-evil outsiders/undead, +27 vs. those guys, and behind on to-hit by 5-10 points. We know that Haste Boost represents a pretty big boost in DPS, for which paladins have no equivalent.

Some things need improving, but what? How?

[LiquidShadow]

Good points M_A.

Any suggestions on what to do to give paladins a boost then? How do they stack up?

Barbarians:


+22 Str (Mighty Rage, Power Rage IV, Frenzy, Death Frenzy capstone and FB set bonus) for between +11 and +17 damage per swing
+6d6 Vicious damage (Frenzy + Death Frenzy) for ~21 damage per swing
Barbarian Power Attack for an additional +3 to +6 damage per swing
Likely a little more starting Str due to lack of need for other stats; +1 to +3 damage per swing
+3 to critical multipliers on 19-20 crits (can't figure in effect on damage, but it's big)
(now) Damage Boost IV for +25% boost to weapon damage (can't figure in effect on damage)
Total to-hit bonus of around +8

Fighters (Kensai):


+11 Str (Fighter Str III + Surge) for between +5 and +8 damage
Weapon specialization trees (feats, enhancements, kensai) for between +8 and +10 damage
Haste Boost IV for +30% bonus to attack speed (can't figure in effect on damage)
+1 to crit threat range with particular weapon
Total to-hit bonus of around +14 (WS lines, Kensai set bonus, Str bonuses)
+10% doublestrike from capstone
Likely a little more starting Str due to lack of need for other stats; +1 to +3 damage per swing

Paladins:


+3 damage per swing from Divine Favor
+6 to +8 damage per swing from Divine Might
+10% doublestrike from Zeal
+7d6 to +9d6 light damage about every 5 attacks for about +5 to +6 damage per swing
Exalted Smite for spikes in damage (can't figure in effect on damage)
+1d6 vs. evil targets from capstone for about +3.5 damage per swing
+2d6 vs. evil outsiders and undead from capstone for about +7 damage per swing vs. those enemies
Total to-hit bonus of +3

So barbarians are looking at around (at best) +47 damage per swing before accounting for all the boosts that are difficult to figure into an abstraction such as this, while fighters are at around +21 damage per swing before non-static bonuses, and paladins are at about +20 vs. non-evil outsiders/undead, +27 vs. those guys, and behind on to-hit by 5-10 points. We know that Haste Boost represents a pretty big boost in DPS, for which paladins have no equivalent.

Some things need improving, but what? How?

after reading all those responses i think that adding those extra d6 damage from different sources to base dmg ( yes, multiplied on crit ) is the best option, or at least dmg from kotc pre (thats what rangers get from favored enemy). it would give paladin advantage against SOME enemies and thats how its supposed to be imo.
and divine might should be adjusted somehow too, at least activation time should be similar to kensai power surge imo.

EDIT:
the whole topic is about: every melee gets huge bonus from artificer and paladins gets half of that which makes the dps gap between those classes even greater. its not about deleting some spells... oh yea and i forgot about new dmg boost mostly for barbarians LOL

[Caseas]

Stop the QQ people. Especially you, OP.

Artificers have a lot of great things to bring to the table, and one of them just happens to help break enemy DR. Get over it.

This isn't a PvP game where an arena team with artificer is going to take the top .05% bracket simply because the artificer is there. There isn't any player versus player competition.

Artificer is gonna help raids take down bosses quicker. Why is that bad? Are you that insecure about your other characters? Afraid you're gonna get declined to a random pug ToD cuz you're a paladin? Gimme a break.

There is nothing wrong with our characters getting stronger when Turbine is just gonna make things harder anyways. Have you all forgotten about the changes to hard, elite, and epic raiding? You're gonna NEED these new buffs to win.

It's fine, QQ less.

[Monkey_Archer]

Good points M_A.

Any suggestions on what to do to give paladins a boost then? How do they stack up?

Barbarians:


+22 Str (Mighty Rage, Power Rage IV, Frenzy, Death Frenzy capstone and FB set bonus) for between +11 and +17 damage per swing
+6d6 Vicious damage (Frenzy + Death Frenzy) for ~21 damage per swing
Barbarian Power Attack for an additional +3 to +6 damage per swing
Likely a little more starting Str due to lack of need for other stats; +1 to +3 damage per swing
+3 to critical multipliers on 19-20 crits (can't figure in effect on damage, but it's big)
(now) Damage Boost IV for +25% boost to weapon damage (can't figure in effect on damage)
Total to-hit bonus of around +8

Fighters (Kensai):


+11 Str (Fighter Str III + Surge) for between +5 and +8 damage
Weapon specialization trees (feats, enhancements, kensai) for between +8 and +10 damage
Haste Boost IV for +30% bonus to attack speed (can't figure in effect on damage)
+1 to crit threat range with particular weapon
Total to-hit bonus of around +14 (WS lines, Kensai set bonus, Str bonuses)
+10% doublestrike from capstone
Likely a little more starting Str due to lack of need for other stats; +1 to +3 damage per swing

Paladins:


+3 damage per swing from Divine Favor
+6 to +8 damage per swing from Divine Might
+10% doublestrike from Zeal
+7d6 to +9d6 light damage about every 5 attacks for about +5 to +6 damage per swing
Exalted Smite for spikes in damage (can't figure in effect on damage)
+1d6 vs. evil targets from capstone for about +3.5 damage per swing
+2d6 vs. evil outsiders and undead from capstone for about +7 damage per swing vs. those enemies
Total to-hit bonus of +3

So barbarians are looking at around (at best) +47 damage per swing before accounting for all the boosts that are difficult to figure into an abstraction such as this, while fighters are at around +21 damage per swing before non-static bonuses, and paladins are at about +20 vs. non-evil outsiders/undead, +27 vs. those guys, and behind on to-hit by 5-10 points. We know that Haste Boost represents a pretty big boost in DPS, for which paladins have no equivalent.

Some things need improving, but what? How?

Now that fighters are a 2nd tier dps class compared to barbs it think it would be appropriate that paladins be brought up close to current fighter levels (I think fighters should then receive a buff to at least compete with barbs in the furture but thats another topic). Overall both fighters and paladins do have about +20 damage, but the paladin spends 3 times as long buffing, can have their buffs dispelled, is limited to evil targets, and misses alot more, which equates to alot of lost dps in many situations even when the overall damage is roughly equal. Averaged over a reasonable amount of time, the combined smite/DS crits is roughly equal to the fighters +1 crit range/seeker so those factors can be roughly ignored. Which leaves the biggest difference as fighter haste boost vs paladins missing more often (roughly 15-20% dps when hitting, and easily up to 30% dps when to hit is a factor).

Changing DM to the same percentage increase as damage boost would give most paladins a 5-10% increase in dps, which would at least make up part of the difference haste boost makes (which is ok since a paladin can keep DM going much longer). I'd also like to see smiting changed to benefit all weapons equally. The removal of auto crits was done for exactly this reason, but has had the opposite effect on paladins since previously paladins could use low crit range weapons on held mobs to roughly the same effect as high crit range weapons.
Perhaps make smites automatically crit but have the multiplier increase limited to 19-20. On average, I think that would be a small increase in damage (fewer massive 1000+ damage crits, but always a significant amount of damage). This would also benefit low crit range weapons more then high crit range weapons, to balance against the opposite effect of divine sacrifices which benefit high crit range weapons.

The to hit issue really cant be ignored either, but im not sure how to address that.... (maybe add +1 to hit per tier on DM?)

[Claymorep]

Stop the QQ people. Especially you, OP.

Artificers have a lot of great things to bring to the table, and one of them just happens to help break enemy DR. Get over it.

This isn't a PvP game where an arena team with artificer is going to take the top .05% bracket simply because the artificer is there. There isn't any player versus player competition.

Artificer is gonna help raids take down bosses quicker. Why is that bad? Are you that insecure about your other characters? Afraid you're gonna get declined to a random pug ToD cuz you're a paladin? Gimme a break.

There is nothing wrong with our characters getting stronger when Turbine is just gonna make things harder anyways. Have you all forgotten about the changes to hard, elite, and epic raiding? You're gonna NEED these new buffs to win.

It's fine, QQ less.

But I don't think anyone with an equilibrated mind will never say: Romove articifiers dr spells or nerf other classes. I'm one of those that think that new barb damage boost is a must have for this class (probably a bit less impact). The point is that unless we supergear, superbuild, superfit anything about dps things into a pally he can't sustain any dps comparison vs other classes that have something more in terms of hp, tactics (trip, stun, etc) and all this only vs his hated enemy...
At the state of the game we are going, the only role of the pally will be tank and even in that case it will be outclassed by fighter tanks that can still have some dps capability...
We can say exactly the same about rangers that will be forced to move in arcane archer direction and even in that case (i did not so much tests in this direction to be sure) the new xbows speed is outclassing any ranger archer (except manyshotting, but not so big difference).

[Taimasan]

Epic Mabar wraps Earth IV build Dark Path, silver bypassing.

Nuff said. Im ready.

[Claymorep]

The folly here is that the artificer weapon mods are just as irrelevant now in dps terms as the paladin capstone always has been. Paladins just aren't a dps class. They're useful for surviving, aura buffing, self healing, tanking, etc... but they just can't do dps like every other melee class can.


Probably You are right, but it will be hard that a pally fan like me will never tell You ;)
Anyway It will be nearly sure after this update if anything will be changed.
I think I'll try to have a good new feeling with my AA, but I'll not last long... :(

[Claymorep]

after reading all those responses i think that adding those extra d6 damage from different sources to base dmg ( yes, multiplied on crit ) is the best option, or at least dmg from kotc pre (thats what rangers get from favored enemy). it would give paladin advantage against SOME enemies and thats how its supposed to be imo.
and divine might should be adjusted somehow too, at least activation time should be similar to kensai power surge imo.


This is a very good idea but I have to do tests about the impact on glancing blows for 2hf compared to secondary weapon attack for 2wf, cause if a 2wf (mostly using 2x lit 2 kopeshes) will have bigger bonus from this added to the fact that an artificer can give silver/cold iron bypassing dr to those weapons can unbalance the pally completely in the 2wf line and we'll have only 18/2 pally/fighters helf dilettante rogue to represent the pally class (except some overgeared 18/2 tanks).

[MrkGrismer]

I Respectfully have to disagree, there is no value to a capstone that can be gained by anyone of any class simply by using a Red Augment crystal of Devils ruin, and you can't even say that those are rare or uncommon now because people sell them all day for ~1-2 FRDS.

Distorted sense of reality...

I think this highlights the difference between more hardcore or veteran players and 'casual players' tho. I think it also shows the difficulty devs have in 'balancing' the game.

I think the Paladin capstone is valuable for people like me that have capped 3 characters (soon to be 5) but yet are nowhere near being able to 'slot' any augment crystals (because I haven't done any epics yet, shoot I don't even have any green steel made yet, just one blank).

[andbr22]

People forgeting one crucial thing -> weapon buffs only last 5 minutes, and are single target -> I don't see them working in VoD, or ToD (they could be enought for normal Shroud before changes).
Also I didnt tested it, but how it works on TWF? Does it buff only main weapon (like master touch)? That even more casting.

Of course it can be good to keep that tank with eSoS get that buff, but I don't see posibility to cast this on whole party.

[LiquidShadow]

Distorted sense of reality...

I think this highlights the difference between more hardcore or veteran players and 'casual players' tho. I think it also shows the difficulty devs have in 'balancing' the game.

I think the Paladin capstone is valuable for people like me that have capped 3 characters (soon to be 5) but yet are nowhere near being able to 'slot' any augment crystals (because I haven't done any epics yet, shoot I don't even have any green steel made yet, just one blank).


MrkGrismer
Community Member

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,776


LiquidShadow
Community Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: EU
Posts: 41

quit forum and play game LOL
as for capstone it should be valuable for everyone, not just newbies or casual players... i dont care about those DR breaking crystals since they are not that common as buffs are.

[LiquidShadow]

Of course it can be good to keep that tank with eSoS get that buff, but I don't see posibility to cast this on whole party.

thats what i meant when i said it would be ok if it worked like fvs and his crown of retribution but making it last not long - lets say 1-3 minutes is not a bad idea either. in the end u dont need to buff 12 ppl with that but about 6-8 and thats not big deal unless cooldown is huge... oh hey thats another option

[esheep]

It is an interesting problem... As someone whose first toon was a paladin, I have one suggestion:

Make the cooldown equal to the duration (5 min for both sounds ok), and possibly not affected by extend... (that would need to be tested...)

This way, the artificer can boost his DPS... or someone else's. If they have extend, they can have at most 2 people bypassing silver at once... but that might require play testing for balance.

I think it's a mistake to let one class buff everyone in such a fashion that it negates a sought-after paladin ability and allows the rest of the party to use whatever random weapon to bypass DR -- if you're going to allow that, why not just remove DR from mobs/the game?

[ReaperAlexEU]

quit forum and play game LOL

wow, way to alienate your self...

the way i read this a newbie without a DR breaker can ask for the spell to help break DR, any one who has a DR breaker can ask for a spell to boost DPS. so the new spells are not going to break the paly.

as for the paly in general, maybe it is due another buff, but update 11 is not in any way breaking them.

the sky isnt falling, there might be an argument to say its fallen, i certainly wouldnt say no to a buff to my paly, a few choices in cap stone would be welcome, but update 11 isnt breaking any thing for the paly.

[Uska]

I have 2 comments:

1) Pallys don't need the silver, they can have a damage augmentation instead.

2) What do all those people do if there ISN'T an artificier on the raid?

how many people actually have a ESoS

[Yalina]

how many people actually have a ESoS

A lot of. (More than you think about.)

[sephiroth1084]

the whole topic is about: every melee gets huge bonus from artificer and paladins gets half of that which makes the dps gap between those classes even greater. its not about deleting some spells... oh yea and i forgot about new dmg boost mostly for barbarians LOL
How much is everyone actually getting? Who is everyone?

Anyone well geared enough to have DR breakers won't care about the artificer's ability to boost their weapons in that way most of the time (and, and there are plenty of non-ESoS DR breakers that are far more common). Meanwhile, paladins are free to gain Deadly Weapons or whatever other bonus is more appropriate for the fight.


Now that fighters are a 2nd tier dps class compared to barbs it think it would be appropriate that paladins be brought up close to current fighter levels (I think fighters should then receive a buff to at least compete with barbs in the furture but thats another topic). Overall both fighters and paladins do have about +20 damage, but the paladin spends 3 times as long buffing, can have their buffs dispelled, is limited to evil targets, and misses alot more, which equates to alot of lost dps in many situations even when the overall damage is roughly equal. Averaged over a reasonable amount of time, the combined smite/DS crits is roughly equal to the fighters +1 crit range/seeker so those factors can be roughly ignored. Which leaves the biggest difference as fighter haste boost vs paladins missing more often (roughly 15-20% dps when hitting, and easily up to 30% dps when to hit is a factor).

Changing DM to the same percentage increase as damage boost would give most paladins a 5-10% increase in dps, which would at least make up part of the difference haste boost makes (which is ok since a paladin can keep DM going much longer). I'd also like to see smiting changed to benefit all weapons equally. The removal of auto crits was done for exactly this reason, but has had the opposite effect on paladins since previously paladins could use low crit range weapons on held mobs to roughly the same effect as high crit range weapons.
Perhaps make smites automatically crit but have the multiplier increase limited to 19-20. On average, I think that would be a small increase in damage (fewer massive 1000+ damage crits, but always a significant amount of damage). This would also benefit low crit range weapons more then high crit range weapons, to balance against the opposite effect of divine sacrifices which benefit high crit range weapons.
Not sure how I feel about smite being an auto-crit.



The to hit issue really cant be ignored either, but im not sure how to address that.... (maybe add +1 to hit per tier on DM?)
Could un-errata Divine Favor to +1/3 levels, uncapped ending at +6/+6 at level 18... It made some sense for PnP when the change was made, and was reasonable for DDO when it came down the pipe, but D&D 3.5 is basically non-existent now, and DDO's bonuses have surges and evolved considerably.

[Hollowgolem]

I think you should all take a step back and consider all of the false equivalences that have been getting drawn in this thread.

Paladins aren't that bad if you know what you're getting with them.

If you want them to be barbarians, you're doing it wrong.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Actually as a paladin, I am looking forward to an artificer casting 'silver weapon' on my triple positives.

Wholeheartedly agree Paladins do need a quick revision again as KotC is very restrictive.

[Hollowgolem]

Pallies have two other prestiges. Hunter of the Dead is great in a number of situations, not all of them involving undead (For instance, you get tier 2 while leveling just in time for Invaders, Dreams of Insanity, and the Madness chains.), and who doesn't love a (admittedly gear-hungry) Knight of the Chalice tank who can self-heal and rock crazy DPS on the things he needs to tank?

Also, remember that now, a Pally can pick up a +5 Shocking Burst Greataxe of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane, and with Capstone+Artie silver enhancement, wreck some devil-boss face.

[simo0208]

Why are people talking about fixing paladins? It's not happening in update 11 and I'm guessing it's not happening in update 12 or even soon after that. A lot bigger problems out there than min/maxing paladins.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you OP and yes this is one of the first things I thought about when I saw the artificer's spell list yet another nerf to pallys. I do not understand why they could not make the artificer spell a +2 crit multiplier which does not stack with the barbarian crit multiplier for frenzy berzerker or a +8 strength modifier which does not stack with the kensai power surge but instead nerfed pallys. Totally weaksauce on the part of the devs for not coming up with another class to nerf because pallys are most definitely at the bottom of the barrel.

[redwolf51]

i'm some what a noob so i might be wrong but pally=tank, fighter=abit of everything, barb=dps. the classes don't have to follow that path but it is they role in most games,movies,and etc

[maddmatt70]

i'm some what a noob so i might be wrong but pally=tank, fighter=abit of everything, barb=dps. the classes don't have to follow that path but it is they role in most games,movies,and etc

This game is about dps. if you do less dps you are not worthy basically.

[Culver.Civello]

Has anyone seen the amount of SP an Artificer gets? That tagged along with all the spells they have, I really don't think I'm interested in buffing a whole raid group with a spell that will be half off it's timer by the time I get everyone buffed. No Thank you. If you ask nicely.. sure you can have it if I feel I can spare the SP, but if you die cause you didn't have that silver augmentation to your weapon... then say hello to my backpack. You can sit there for the rest of the quest... and I really don't think I'll be the only person to take that perspective. So in all... I don't see the need to nerf the augmentations. It is a nice thing to have, sure. Not really a game breaker though in any aspect. Paladins will do just fine. Paladins can selfheal, tank, do pretty good dps and get all sorts of buffs as well. To say you want another class nerfed because you feel a bit intimidated(lolz pun), then you probably need to step away from the game for a bit and cool down. Everything will be fine. I love my Monk personally... and will still continue to play him. If the Arty is passing out augments then shoot... I'll take one of whatever if it works. I don't care and I'm not sweating it either way. If anything... Arty just helps newer players out that don't already have good equipment. For someone who has been playing a while and has lots of nice gear, I wouldn't even worry about it.

[Rheebus]

There are lots of good Pallys on Ghallanda. I don't have one myself, but the guildies with PAlladins sure seem to dish out the pain. I am not sure where all this Pallys are GIMPS talk is coming from.

The only thing this changes in my opinion is having the option, sometimes, to use a different weapon on a boss than you would normally do when you have an artificer in the group. Diversity. Yea.

Palladins will be able to use ANY WEAPON on a boss if they have a friendly artificer in the party. Weapons of Good + Silver Weapons + ANY WEAPON = boss beater. I can imagine some amazing combinations! :)

[Caseas]

Why are people talking about fixing paladins? It's not happening in update 11 and I'm guessing it's not happening in update 12 or even soon after that. A lot bigger problems out there than min/maxing paladins.

Quoted for truth. Bigger fish to fry, people.

[EufretDemias]

i'm some what a noob so i might be wrong but pally=tank, fighter=abit of everything, barb=dps. the classes don't have to follow that path but it is they role in most games,movies,and etc

Paladin's = tank? Um.. yes and no. not really. Any class in DDO can be a tank in the traditional MMO context, it all depends on gear, buffs, and enhancements. I've seen WF Sorc's and Sorc/melee hybrids tank VoD, I've seen pure Monks tank, I've seen Barbarians tank and I've seen Divine Casters tank and my Cleric has tanked a few quests while leveling and even a couple raids (Reavers Fate and Shroud BEFORE Harry moved around), I've seen other PURE divine and arcane casters tank as well.. heck I've even seen and I'm currently working on a Rogue Acrobat/Monk Ninjaspy AC tank. I've never ran ToD because after dealing with Devils in Shroud/Sub and Devil's Assault packs I got sick or tired bored of fighting them. Sorry but I don't feel like flaggin for another long dragged out Devil beatdown.

My capped Pally is still not completely gear'd but is built as a Falchion THF dps/burst DPS and focuses on Crit's due to the increased crit range and multipler that Pally's get from Divine Sac and Divine Smite. She will never be a true tank unless I spend the time/plat on gear. It is true thats Pally's are more self sufficent then your average fighter or barbarian, but due to multiple atribute defincincy syndrome (aka MADS), a first life Pally most likely will be behind the other full BAB classes on the DPS table, most then likely even behind well built 3/4 BAB's (rogues and most non finesse monks). Saddly, DPS and damage absorbtion (HP/DR) are the biggest/most important things in this game. True there are some truly amazing end game AC tanks but they are few and far between. Most are high HP tanks, read as damage absorption tanks.

Truth be told the only thing different between all capped KotC Paladins is where they spent a few AP and a feat or 2 depending on race, mine has Cleave instead of Greater Two Handed Fighting, and Improved Intimate II to help her pull Trash Mob hate off of squishier casters in VoD. Pally's need some loving on the AP cost side of things, like all non arcane classes. I think it's total bull carp that the spell damage lines only cost 1 AP per teir but the Life Magic and Cleric/FvS Smiting lines do not. I agree that the change was needed to make Arcane's more fun instead of buff/firewall bots, but Paladins have to spend 10 AP EACH to max Divine Smite and Extra Smite Evil at only lvl 4. That's 20 AP really for one thing since extra Smite Evil's adds more Exhalted Smites and who in the hell uses a normal Smite once they can take Exhalted Smite.

Lesser AP costs on things thats are pretty much required for any class to do decent damage or be truly viable, be it divine/exhalted smites, divine smiting/healing lines, rages, crits/SA, or what ever fighters get/use (never lvl'd a pure fighter sorry) is needed across the board I feel to match the OP that most Arcane's can get nowadays. Plus it will add to the customization of characters the Dungeons and Dragons embodies. All my AA Bardcher and most other ranged DPS needs is an increased rate of fire which she/they are getting from the looks of things in the preview of U11. When an Arcane can yawn while soloing Epic quests that most non arcanes cannot solo then there is problem with either class balance or the quest design.. maybe both.

AS for ESoS..
My Pally is another on in a LONG line of toons waiting for their ESoS, so any discussion including that holy grail is moot to me. I've met Wizards and Favored Souls working on that weapon simply becuase currently nothing can touch it for non spell DPS. Plus from the sounds of things the ESoS might be getting nerfed somewhat or other Epic Weapons being bought up to it's par for damage if what 1 Dev has posted comes true.

And yes I agree there is bigger and more important things in this game to spend Dev time on then fixing 1 or 2 F2P classes. I would give Turbine more of what little money I make if they put out an update that was just fixes instead of new content I won't buy for months/years if ever.

/drunken rant FTW or For The Lose I do not care which... peace beotches.
/flame on
btw for MyDDO'ers Eufret of Argo is my Cleric and Eufet of Argo is my Pally. So feel free to look them up and smite me for being gimped.

[Claymorep]

There are lots of good Pallys on Ghallanda. I don't have one myself, but the guildies with PAlladins sure seem to dish out the pain. I am not sure where all this Pallys are GIMPS talk is coming from.

The only thing this changes in my opinion is having the option, sometimes, to use a different weapon on a boss than you would normally do when you have an artificer in the group. Diversity. Yea.

Palladins will be able to use ANY WEAPON on a boss if they have a friendly artificer in the party. Weapons of Good + Silver Weapons + ANY WEAPON = boss beater. I can imagine some amazing combinations! :)

If You use that type of weapons in endgame it's clear that You don't know what we are saying.
ACTUALLY a pally is 4/5% dps back vs dps builds vs external evil (and it should be a bit over them vs them) and 15-20% in other renvironments. With the changes of this update a pally will be 20% back vs externals and no way usefull in other environment.
So, if I'm a leader of a party grouping for an elite tod, an epic devil assault or an epic into the deep (just to enumerate some, but can be extended to all epic/near all raid/quest) and looking for some dps, pallies will not be my first choice (this said by me that play pallyes since 2006...).
Not to mention gimped builded pallies or tanks pallies in quests where a tank is not needed...

Conclusion? All pallyes will end in black list as battle clerics for end game. For an endgamer solo player like me with a pally as main this means that I can resonably take a pause from DDO and log sometimes to see if in U12, U13, U14... they had changed something.

I can consider the idea to reincarnate, but how to do a similar effort when I used 4 +4 tomes and 1 +3 tome in my final life as pally (and ready to use the last +3 tome I found after the big bye bye to pallyes update.

[Dendrix]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

[Ravoc-DDO]

Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

Draw straws to see who swaps to their arty or loses their spot?

;) j/k

the same thing they do today when we have no artys. Go kill stuff and take an extra 30 secs to finish the raid.

Whilst I think Paladins should have no equal in dps power vs evil outsiders, I don't find them so gimped as others do.

[gloopygloop]

How much is everyone actually getting? Who is everyone?

Anyone well geared enough to have DR breakers won't care about the artificer's ability to boost their weapons in that way most of the time (and, and there are plenty of non-ESoS DR breakers that are far more common).

Most players who are doing content harder than Shroud on Normal have both LitII weapons and DR breakers. We can safely discount Shroud on Normal because parties can already sleepwalk through that raid and will continue to sleepwalk through it after the raid changes in U11.

Deadly Weapons is nice. Getting to break DR on your LitII weapons is better.

Being able to break Pit Fiend DR with LitII weapons on Hard and Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD is going to make a bigger difference than Warchanter Bard songs.


Just think about what weapons you use in Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD. It's LitII or eSoS or Cannith weapon on trash followed by MinII or Cannith weapon or +x Metalline of PG or eSoS against the boss. Silver lets you dump the MinII/MetPG weapons and start usign the LitII/eSoS.

That's a pretty enormous boost. I doubt that anyone will use the Deadly Weapons option unless they already have a DR bypassing eSoS or +5HBSoGLOB Cannith weapon.

[Claymorep]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

About artificers in hard involved dr raids like tod I seriously doubt about the fact that any lfm will not hardly search for it (like a bard for Epic von 6).


Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.

I'll be totally with You if I have not to consider that about pallies ap I have 2 choices:
1st became a total dps build taking human damage boosts (5, 7 with verik that i can use in first part of fight then switch) and forgot aura, lays and stats (except +1 human str and +1 pally cha, others will cost too much)
2nd stay as I am dps/versatile/survavibility build without taking human damage boosts but this will involve a lack of dps about 17-21% (if my calcs are correct in the best pally frindly environment)... Too much to sustain a versatility/survavibility build in endgame contest. Moreover a top geared pally have 200-250 hp less than barbs and 100-180 hp less than fighters.

So I'm really involved about this discussion cause my choice to remain pally will be very hard to sustain when I can become a new top dps for better results and no real role for a pally.

Ps. Someone (tyvm to that guy), enlighted me about deadly weapon that a pally can use instead of silver or cold iron spell. I'd like to puntualize that this tread was opened after we knew about silver spell but before deadly weapon. Anyway my interventions was majorly about to enlighted the no-real role of pally in U11 as I did in Divine might tread.
Moreover never I said to nerf artificers or barb damage boosts, that I consider a must have but with a similar equivalency for other dps (and not to rely them to become human/helf).

[gloopygloop]

Ps. Someone (tyvm to that guy), enlighted me about deadly weapon that a pally can use instead of silver or cold iron spell. I'd like to puntualize that this tread was opened after we knew about silver spell but before deadly weapon. Anyway my interventions was majorly about to enlighted the no-real role of pally in U11 as I did in Divine might tread.
Moreover never I said to nerf artificers or barb damage boosts, that I consider a must have but with a similar equivalency for other dps (and not to rely them to become human/helf).

What weapon would you use the Damage Boost on, though? You could use it on a Silver slotted eSoS (since you get the Good from the capstone) or on a Cannith crafted +5 HBSoGLOB since that has silver already, but for any other weapon, you'd probably be better off getting the Silver added to a LitII weapon instead of getting the Deadly Weapon spell added to some weapon other than LitII.

And I haven't compared the +5HBSoGLOB + Deadly Weapon to Silver LitII yet, so I'm not even 100% sure that the Deadly Weapon boosted Cannith weapon will be better.

[Claymorep]

What weapon would you use the Damage Boost on, though? You could use it on a Silver slotted eSoS (since you get the Good from the capstone) or on a Cannith crafted +5 HBSoGLOB since that has silver already, but for any other weapon, you'd probably be better off getting the Silver added to a LitII weapon instead of getting the Deadly Weapon spell added to some weapon other than LitII.

And I haven't compared the +5HBSoGLOB + Deadly Weapon to Silver LitII yet, so I'm not even 100% sure that the Deadly Weapon boosted Cannith weapon will be better.

Sincerely I didn't tested different tipes of weapons except a esos for a 2hf or a lit2 kopesh for a 2wf, but I will be surprised if +5HBSoGLOB will be a better choice (undoubltly better an esos than a lit2 falchion). An esos will have a great advantage as it will add a great BASE bonus and on crits this bonus will become something really WHOAAA!
Clearly this will involve the difficulty of the raid as an increased fortified raid boss with an incrising dr as difficulty will be highten and different builds with different damage boosts will put a bit more variables in the equation...
I go to ask on Ryumajin about these as I'm starting to have an headache...
After all, while He is a statistic (his work is to insert datas), I'm an economist (my work is to let other works ;) )...

[Drfirewater79]

Realy??? are those horc barbarians and fighters need more dmg boost? or is it working only on non epic weapons that doesnt have red augument slot like greensteel?

......

Giving every class except paladin and monk a huge boost and a minor boost to those 2 is not a good idea imo.
Monks are already popular but paladins could use some boost. Here is some nice idea about divine might improvement:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=335251



Whats your thoughts on that? some dev comment would be much appreciated

The silver weapons thing isnt that big a deal ... most peopel already have drbreakers for there classes.

I agree monks and palidans and any sword and board are the biggest issues in the post update 11 era of DDO ... but that is mainly cause AC is worthless in todays game.

What i dont like is artificers come in and there are already what 6 named rune arms? monks have been around for what 3 years now ... and we have 1 set of epic wraps ... no greensteel ... and two other named wraps one that sucks major (the new one from the new quest chain in 12) and the other that never drops in a quest that is hard to repeat without a door opener.

[dkyle]

What i dont like is artificers come in and there are already what 6 named rune arms? monks have been around for what 3 years now ... and we have 1 set of epic wraps ... no greensteel ... and two other named wraps one that sucks major (the new one from the new quest chain in 12) and the other that never drops in a quest that is hard to repeat without a door opener.

There are no random rune arms, so that comparison is a real stretch. The only options Artificers get are named ones.

[gloopygloop]

In case anyone cares, I made a thread to compare LitII, Cannith +5HBSoGLOB and MinII.
I'll follow up with a comparison of eSoS, LitII Greataxe and +5HBSoGLOB later this afternoon.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336425

[LiquidShadow]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

same thing as in evon6 without bard...

[LiquidShadow]

Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.

barb increased hp increases his survivability - there is a reason why they always tank and paladins are not even asked to do that and dont forget about natural DR of barbs

pally has advantage of suvivability - not greater than other classes, they have low str and easily get knocked down. thats what i hate about it the most, cause u cant self heal while lying on ground... u say high saves, yea but no evasion like rangers and will save is pointless anyway cause u have fom... hp isnt that great either uhm so yea they are better in some situations but u can say that about fighter and barb too - especialy in quest full of tripping mobs like worgs and wolves

fighter has better trip and sometimes stunning blow, doesnt get knocked down that easily, has higher hp than paladins due to multiple toughness feat and more starting con

all mentioned above is about survivability and u pointed some defensive pros of barb and fighter but didnt say anything specific about paladins which suggest that u never played one or u simply dont want them to be balanced imo

i see no reason why paladins shouldnt be allowed to have good situational dps compared to barbs and fighters

[LiquidShadow]

The silver weapons thing isnt that big a deal ... most peopel already have drbreakers for there classes.


seriously? did u read first post? there is a difference between lets say Min II gs axe and ESOS in crit profile and compare epic antique greataxe with esos too then u can say something...

and btw this thread isnt about sword and board...

[sephiroth1084]

Most players who are doing content harder than Shroud on Normal have both LitII weapons and DR breakers. We can safely discount Shroud on Normal because parties can already sleepwalk through that raid and will continue to sleepwalk through it after the raid changes in U11.

Deadly Weapons is nice. Getting to break DR on your LitII weapons is better.

Being able to break Pit Fiend DR with LitII weapons on Hard and Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD is going to make a bigger difference than Warchanter Bard songs.


Just think about what weapons you use in Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD. It's LitII or eSoS or Cannith weapon on trash followed by MinII or Cannith weapon or +x Metalline of PG or eSoS against the boss. Silver lets you dump the MinII/MetPG weapons and start usign the LitII/eSoS.

That's a pretty enormous boost. I doubt that anyone will use the Deadly Weapons option unless they already have a DR bypassing eSoS or +5HBSoGLOB Cannith weapon.
The ability for artificers to grant DR-breaking is odd in that it's very good for undergeared players and rather weak for those who are well geared. If you have that perfect Cannith weapon or a fully slotted ESoS, you'd prefer a straight damage upgrade.


Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.
Unfortunately, that breakdown is mostly false.

Paladins are more survivable when soloing and against certain monsters. If the paladin or fighter has focused on AC they may be more survivable in certain encounters/quests than anyone else.

Barbarians are generally more survivable vs. big spike damage and tend to have equal or better tactics DCs. Fighters have a slight advantage in that they can afford the feats, but a barbarian using Trip probably has as good or better DC than a fighter using Improved Trip.

[Seikojin]

So instead of saying help pallys, you say nerf artys? That doesn't make any real sense.

I think Pallys should flat out do more damage against evil alignments. I don't see any real issues with pallys, but I haven't capped min yet, so I dunno how it performs endgame. COuld try on lam though... 1000 exp really helps test balance out.

[Ravoc-DDO]

...

all mentioned above is about survivability and u pointed some defensive pros of barb and fighter but didnt say anything specific about paladins which suggest that u never played one or u simply dont want them to be balanced imo

i see no reason why paladins shouldnt be allowed to have good situational dps compared to barbs and fighters

I think you misunderstood my post. In the context of this thread, I did imply to boost pally dps.

About survivability, my pally is a splashed one (so much for capstone, always considered it inferior anyway). But it has evasion with max reflex save and can self heal for 500-600 from blue bar. My main issues are the difficulty of reaching 600hp and a lower dps compared to fighters & barbarians.

[Nodoze]

Stop the QQ people. Especially you, OP.

Artificers have a lot of great things to bring to the table, and one of them just happens to help break enemy DR. Get over it. ...
Are you that insecure about your other characters?
... Gimme a break.
There is nothing wrong with our characters getting stronger...
It's fine, QQ less.Caseas, I find your comments unhelpful and dismissive of people's real concerns. This change concerns the **** out of me because at least 3 of our static group of 6 love Paladins and 4 of us play them...

I agree with MadMatt & the OP that this makes Paladins appear even more lack-luster and even more bottom of the barrel... As this and other threads show, many people already considered Paladins pretty situational before and now even those situations aren't unique and don't set them apart...

My perspective may be different than others as my group has played D&D since the 70s and of all the classes we would agree that Paladins are a signature class that should be above others against Evil... I understand that there is a lot of evil in the game so it would be OP and making it a little more limited make sense but it seems to me that they are even taking those situational chances to shine away from Paladins...

Many of us prefer to play Paladins and that is the main (for some the only) reason we are on DDO. For example, one of my best friend's account only has 1 character (his Paladin) and for 3 of us our favorite class is with out a doubt Paladins.

Frankly he called me awhile back thinking of quiting our group because he felt he wasn't contributing and holding his own as we leveled into the higher levels. His AC was no longer a major factor and thankfully I had an answer by helping him respec to TWF dual kopesh KoTC. I know that he will still lack compared to the generic DPS classes against the majorty of the content but I was glad that he could always shine once in awhile.

I don't mind being the main party cleric healer/caster as we sometimes switch to our Alts and another buddy heals while I play my Paladin.

If they let this change go live I surely hope they do something to boost Paladins as I will likely stop playing if our party falls apart due to people feeling like they can't contribute by at least holding their own at least situationally when playing the class they want to play...

[grgurius]

Sry if this was already stated, i mostly skimed through this thread, but whats the duration and cooldown of artyes weapon augments?

[oradafu]

The silver weapons thing isnt that big a deal ... most peopel already have drbreakers for there classes.

I agree monks and palidans and any sword and board are the biggest issues in the post update 11 era of DDO ... but that is mainly cause AC is worthless in todays game.

What i dont like is artificers come in and there are already what 6 named rune arms? monks have been around for what 3 years now ... and we have 1 set of epic wraps ... no greensteel ... and two other named wraps one that sucks major (the new one from the new quest chain in 12) and the other that never drops in a quest that is hard to repeat without a door opener.

I understand the plight of the monk with handwraps, but there are more than three named handwraps in the game. There's Devotion, Devout Handwraps, Eternal Rest, Fanged Wraps, Fernian Wraps, Skin of the Mockery, Unstable Handwraps, and Weeping Handwraps. Additionally, there are three different "starter" wraps; the Stonedust Handwraps with four different upgrade version; and the five different levels of the Wraps of Endless Light.

The wraps have a leg up on the Runearms since it appears that randomly generated Runearms don't exist. So there had to be more than two or three Runearm weapons added to the game. Now Dwarven Axes got the short end of the stick with only two named items: Sever and the Axe of Famine...but that's a different discussion for a different thread...

===

As for the thread, I do think that the the Artificer does hurt the Paladin's uniqueness. I don't think the Artificer should be nerfed. I'd rather see Paladins get a boost somehow. Since this affects the Capstone more than anything, I always felt that the Capstone should have included True Law damage, in addition to the Good damage. Paladins must be Lawful Good, so the addition of Lawful damage just proper.

[NaturalHazard]

/signed

. Again its all about Balancing.

!!!!!!

Balancing in DDO?

Is that some kind of myth? :eek::eek::eek:

[NaturalHazard]

barb increased hp increases his survivability - there is a reason why they always tank and paladins are not even asked to do that and dont forget about natural DR of barbs

pally has advantage of suvivability - not greater than other classes, they have low str and easily get knocked down. thats what i hate about it the most, cause u cant self heal while lying on ground... u say high saves, yea but no evasion like rangers and will save is pointless anyway cause u have fom... hp isnt that great either uhm so yea they are better in some situations but u can say that about fighter and barb too - especialy in quest full of tripping mobs like worgs and wolves

fighter has better trip and sometimes stunning blow, doesnt get knocked down that easily, has higher hp than paladins due to multiple toughness feat and more starting con

all mentioned above is about survivability and u pointed some defensive pros of barb and fighter but didnt say anything specific about paladins which suggest that u never played one or u simply dont want them to be balanced imo

i see no reason why paladins shouldnt be allowed to have good situational dps compared to barbs and fighters

um excuse me? barbs always tank and paladins are not asked to tank? If geared right and built right paladins make better tanks than 90% of the barbs out there.

Tanking is not all about hp. paladins can hit the AC needed to AC tank in norm/hard/elite TOD and be kept up with heal scrolls or even less. They have no trouble generating hate.

Tanking isnt always about HP theres these things called healing amp, saves, and armour class, have you heard about them? They can be useful for tanking as well. Add to the fact that the paladin has his LOH and his own heals if needed he can make a more survivable tank, as well as his higher saves.

Barberians are always the ones *best suited to tank* and the ones always asked?

I have seen nearly every class in the game atm tank in this game, and im not talking about tempest spine and reavers fate. Im talking about all difficutlies of vod, tod, epic chrono and epic DA.

[Claymorep]

All said.

The problem is that while a barbarian do massive dps, a pally have to choose the dps way OR the tank way. I'm with You that a builded tank is better than a casual tank (I too near seen any kind of tank in every quest), but this game has eveolved in all-dps way and if You choose a tank way there is no spot for you except in some quests, while a dps with massive hp can play a tank role (and forced to do so cause the line taken by this game).
A pally that will choose a dps line have to say bye bye to so many aspects of pally that is no more use to play a pally as someone will be better with less effort. Something this game have in common with D&D is specialization. You have to specialize in something and all 4 dps classes:
barby, fighter, pally and rangy had dps and respectively dr and hp, tactics, saves and selfhealing, speed and evasion.
We lost rangers a lot of time ago and lost a part of pallies capabilities after necro when we discovered ac means nothing anymore...
Now we are losing definetely pallies too as no real role left to them except as tanks.
I don't know where You play but on my server in endgame I want to surprise You saying 2 pally tanks left... Said 2 only cause I know only one but I play during day in EU so I hope there is another ;)
And that pally is taken out of box only for those 2 raids it is good to have a real tank...

After near 2 years of efforts in building my pally as dps (not full as I lose 5% from a specced dps pally), but able to be real selfhealer (not only 4 lays), selfbuffer, great survivor and a bit tank if necessary... a sort of jolly for every situation, I don't want to wake up in a new world in which I have to spec completely in dps and play like a barb with the stress of a pally starved in stats, feats, ap, slots and something more and anyway not be able to sustain a dps role and with less hp...
If I have to do this I don't play my pally anymore and better I build something else.