Crossbows insanely fast now - way faster then melee even at BAB1

[Shade]

heh seems like they can never get this right..


Testing results: (Manual Fire) (lvl2 artifcer, BAB1, they get rapid reload for free, no rapid shot)
Light repeater
At BAB1 or 2 I verified there is exactly a 1200ms delay between shots with click-catch (simple click macro app). 1200ms/60 seconds = 50 shots. 3shots per click with a repeater = 150 bolts per minute. Wicked fast.
And yea I did verify thats possible to do manually also, got 147 bolts off, with 1 mistimed click, so 150 if i did it flawless. (Easy enough with a macro)
Great crossbow:
These shoot EVEN FASTER (tho no triple hit ofcourse). Exactly 900ms delay between shots = Exactly 66.6 bolt per min. Devil speed. Add in the incredible crit range of the one u get for free (15-20), and the knockdown on a 20, and they are rather potent in there own way.
Light Crossbow:
Tiny bit faster still. 850ms delay. = 70.588 bolts per min.
Dont have a heavy on me.

Autoattack:
Repeater:
~96/99 rounds fired in 1 min. Over 50% faster with manual fire.

For reference, TWF at BAB1 is about ~80 swings a min. 40% offhands with TWF = 112 hits per min... Vs hvy repeaters 150.
BTW This speed actauly slows down at BAB3 for TWF, as you get your 4th attack animation, which is slower.

Little me's test at higher BAB (13 to be precise) with rapid shot showed roughly the same results of ~130-150 bolts per min depending on accuracy of clicks.

He had rapid reload and rapid shot.. So seems it doesn't scale (least not up to BAB13) and rapid shot has no effect. Also mentioned same speed with hvy/light repeater.

Not sure if haste has any effect.. Needs testing.

Too slow before.. now too fast (well for BAB1, These rates at BAB20 seem reasonable)

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

But right now its pretty much machine gun speed with a light repeater on korthos as an artificer (or anyone with rapir reload, didnt take rapid shot)

tho actaully all crossbows are mega fast now. The crazy OP (for its lvl) greatcrossbow (eladrins) attacks juts as fast as the light crossbow, and does 4d8 base dmg with point blank (plus a few from enhancement/cold).. Basicly 1 shot every monster - with sub 1 second attack rates.

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. Feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Add in the 2d8 base dmg from point blank shot, and melees light years behind.

And actually yea the whole progression of swing/shoot speed idea im not really a fan of - It's just plain more fun to attack faster and that should be a big consideration, over anything else.. Just think it should be balanced vs melee. If they wanna give crossbows BAB20 speed at BAB1, then give us BAB20 melee speed at BAB1. Same for bows.

[Mjesko]

I think the attack speed is great, but the Point Blank Shot feat should work that way:

Without PBS:
Ranged attacks inflict 150 % base damage beyond 30 feet and 100 % base damage within 30 feet.

With PBS:
Ranged attacks inflict 150 % base damage.

[Alabore]

So it wasn't me.
I did notice the GXBow seemed a bit too fast - but I've never tried one on the Live server before.

The speed was even more baffling, considering my Artie could reload the GXBow with just one hand, while the rune arm was equipped.

...

Stray thought: the rune arm sounds like a PPC from Mechwarrior games, when charging up...

:D

[Fetchi]

Any change to bow users? Wishful thinking I guess...

[rimble]

I don't think this anything too surprising. Repeaters were always pretty awesome at low levels compared to melees that are lacking their BaB and/or their TWF and THF Feats still.

[Shade]

I think the attack speed is great

if by great you mean "very broken" I agree.

It's a bit silly that my lvl1 artificer - seposedly primarily a caster class? can solo every lvl1-2 elite quest at lvl1, with an 8 dex.. Purely using a repeater without casting a single spell, or even taking a long a potion. All with basic gear you get for free too.

Guess I could of technically had 8 for all stats, since none of them came into play at all.

Try that on a melee with 8 str, tell me how well it works out.

Or hell on a bow ranger with 8 dex.. That will be fun.

Even tho i mainly get grazing hits on elite, I still kill everything before it hits me because i attack like i have a machine gun in my hand, eventually something connects.

Yea its low lvl who cares how broken it is?

I dunno, i think turbine would care if they go thru the trouble of designing all these spells and no one bothers to use them because crossbows outclass them in every way.

The speeds prolly fine for high lvl assuming its not much faster.. But there shoudl be some sense of progression..
Not lvl1= machine gun
lvl20 = still machine gun

[Shade]

I don't think this anything too surprising. Repeaters were always pretty awesome at low levels compared to melees that are lacking their BaB and/or their TWF and THF Feats still.

Yea but the repeater is actually worse then the greatcrossbow.

Even a light crossbow is pretty crazy.

Maybe thats how artifcrs are intended to work?

But this isnt a artificer only thing.. You could put rapid reload on any class and get the same silly speed and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

[SableShadow]

But this isnt a artificer only thing.. You could put rapid reload on any class and get the same silly speed and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

Maybe the devs watched Hawk the Slayer one too many times while working on the project? :D

[stricq]

Any change to bow users? Wishful thinking I guess...

See this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4001310&postcount=173

[rimble]

Yea but the repeater is actually worse then the greatcrossbow.

Even a light crossbow is pretty crazy..

Ooohh...yeah...sounds...off...

[Seikojin]

I was wondering with their changes to crossbow reloading if it would do this. Gonna reroll into a repeater? LOL

[Zaodon]

You could put a two-handed sword or great axe on any class and get the same silly dps and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

Fixed to reflect what happens on live servers.
:D

[Fetchi]

See this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4001310&postcount=173

Sweet! Thanks for the link.

[Scraap]

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

<snip>

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. I'll leave the testing up to you guys, but feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.


Without that trick, at bab 16, there's still a significant reload gap. Should be interesting to see which rate the devs intended. More testing later tonight after work, hopefully.

[Shade]

You could put a two-handed sword or great axe on any class and get the same silly dps and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

Not exactly.

Melee swings extremely slow at low bab. And has this thing called lack of range.. So you actaully get hit back while fighting.

So while you can overpowered monsters with 8 dex with a repeater thanks to machine gun rates even if your relying on high rolls/grazing hits while kiting a bit (tho for the most part I didnt even need to kite, it all died before it reached me, as the little dog pet actaully holds agro pretty well)

With melee, it doesn't work so well. You tend to die or drink a ton of potions before you get much anything dead if you try to melee with 8 strength on lvl1-2 hard/elite quests, and even normal most players might need a potion or 2.

If you start 18+ str, well melee IS your primary class ability, so it should work well.

[Cyr]

Maybe the devs watched Hawk the Slayer one too many times while working on the project? :D

Never saw it myself. Was megaman a main character?

[Missing_Minds]

Shade, have you tried it against any lvl 1 caster with their eternal wands? Those starter eternal wands (as well as WW acid splash) always had really fast sling times. And at lvl 1, way out did any bow shooting in damage with the first wand damage enhancement.

[Zaodon]

Not exactly.

Melee swings extremely slow at low bab. And has this thing called lack of range.. So you actaully get hit back while fighting.

So while you can overpowered monsters with 8 dex with a repeater thanks to machine gun rates even if your relying on high rolls/grazing hits while kiting a bit (tho for the most part I didnt even need to kite, it all died before it reached me, as the little dog pet actaully holds agro pretty well)

With melee, it doesn't work so well. You tend to die or drink a ton of potions before you get much anything dead if you try to melee with 8 strength on lvl1-2 hard/elite quests, and even normal most players might need a potion or 2.

If you start 18+ str, well melee IS your primary class ability, so it should work well.

Go roll an 8 str WF wizard, put a "+1 (Risia Frost) 2-hand of pure good" on it, and level it to 7th level using no offensive spells, just swinging and repair spells. Hard, elite, doesn't matter, I never miss, and kill things in 1-2 hits. After 7th level, swap to being a caster (Wall of Fire).

Swapping 2-handed sword for repeater really makes no difference from level 1-7. As you said originally, if this holds up to level 20, then you might have a complaint. But from 1-7, its no different than on live with 2-h fighting.

[Missing_Minds]

Go roll an 8 str WF wizard, put a "+1 (Risia Frost) 2-hand of pure good" on it, and level it to 7th level using no offensive spells, just swinging and repair spells. Hard, elite, doesn't matter, I never miss, and kill things in 1-2 hits. After 7th level, swap to being a caster (Wall of Fire).

Swapping 2-handed sword for repeater really makes no difference from level 1-7. As you said originally, if this holds up to level 20, then you might have a complaint. But from 1-7, its no different than on live with 2-h fighting.

Many have wanted a RoF increase for a long long while. We may have gotten it with the current version of lama it sounds like. The faster RoF would make ranged a lot more fun, and fun is good for the game.
I do agree it could be over powered, but when you consider the HP let alone mob speed, is it? I don't know as I haven't experienced lama changes nor do I plan to.

[Zaodon]

Many have wanted a RoF increase for a long long while. We may have gotten it with the current version of lama it sounds like. The faster RoF would make ranged a lot more fun, and fun is good for the game.
I do agree it could be over powered, but when you consider the HP let alone mob speed, is it? I don't know as I haven't experienced lama changes nor do I plan to.

Yes, and really, my only point was that right now, on live, you can ignore your class skills and just 2-hand your way to level 7, even on a Wizard. I did Tear of Dhakaan Elite on a level 6 wizard with nothing but Masters Touch, regular Heroism potions, and repair spells, with a +1 Holy (Risia Frost) 2handed Sword of Pure Good, and I almost never missed. I don't see any issue with the new power of xbows and/or repeaters from levels 1-7, but I agree with Shade that we need more data on how it performs at higher levels to see if it scales up or not.

[SableShadow]

Never saw it myself. Was megaman a main character?

Hawk teh Slayz0r! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veszrg1TErk)
xBow at :24 and :45 ... pity no one uploaded the "oceans of arrows and bolts" clip. :D

Also, so much of my life ... wasted. :(

[Shade]

Shade, have you tried it against any lvl 1 caster with their eternal wands? Those starter eternal wands (as well as WW acid splash) always had really fast sling times. And at lvl 1, way out did any bow shooting in damage with the first wand damage enhancement.

Yea. Those wands do 4-7 damage. (or ~6-9 with wand mastery)

The eladrin greatcrossbow with pbs does 4d8+2 damage, +1 frost, and crits on a 15. And fires at a similar rate to the wand.

Bit different.

No idea how your saying it way out did bow shooting.. Maybe your talkign live?

Artificers can't reliable use those at lvl1-2 anyways btw, they get good UMD, but not 15 at lvl1.

[Shade]

Go roll an 8 str WF wizard, put a "+1 (Risia Frost) 2-hand of pure good" on it, and level it to 7th level using no offensive spells, just swinging and repair spells. Hard, elite, doesn't matter, I never miss, and kill things in 1-2 hits.

Never miss, on elite.. 8 str.

ok just lost all credibility there.

[Cyr]

Hawk teh Slayz0r! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veszrg1TErk)
xBow at :24 and :45 ... pity no one uploaded the "oceans of arrows and bolts" clip. :D

Also, so much of my life ... wasted. :(

okay that was funny. Thanks for the link :)

[Diib]

Did bow speed change at all or just crossbows?

Does this marginalize AAs even more as now the best range option is always crossbows?

[Zaodon]

Never miss, on elite.. 8 str.

ok just lost all credibility there.

Go try it in Tear of Dhakaan or any other level 7 or under quest, even hard or elite. AC of mobs at those levels, even on hard or elite, is very low in DDO. Cast a Bulls Str and drink a Heroism pot, and its really not hard to hit ACs of mobs at low level. Add on ship buffs for flavor.

Have you tried it?

I have leveled no less than 3 casters using this method, through all the standard quests, up to elite (WW, STK, Catacombs, Tangleroot, Tear, Gwylands, etc.) ACs of mobs are really low in the beginning of the game.

[jcTharin]

yeah it does need a little tweaking. I am owning EVERYTHING with my repeater. but that's probably because

1. its a repeater

2. it has base damage, and +1 acid damage, and 1d6 flaming arrow damage, and 1d2 force damage. all multiplied by 3.

i figure that it wont really scale with level as much as other things though. it wont have enough base damage to back it up. yeah there is the spell that gives us the ability to use int for damage but to use that you cant use the one that uses int for to-hit

so yeah its gonna get nerfed but im waiting to see how they do at high level before i say anything else. because repeaters are really front loaded.

Endless Fusillade is freaken crazy though o.O

[azrael4h]

Never saw it myself. Was megaman a main character?

Sounds more like Bass' weapon in Mega Man & Bass (Rockman & Forte in Japan). For those who never played it, it's a rapid-fire, multi-directional buster.

[LupusVai]

Was messing about with my level 16 mechanic repeater rogue. Has pbs, rapid reload and rapid shot. Can't say that really seemed much faster.

Melee still seems quicker as its a constant attack speed rather than 3 quick shots then a second or so reloading.

Xbow changes seem to make them at least viable now at low levels. My barb when i TR'd him destroyed mobs much quicker though at low levels (as it should be).

I suspect at higher levels and with dungeon scaling in groups repeaters will still fall far behind as their damage is not likely to improve much where as melee toons gets much better as you level.

[Mjesko]

It's a bit silly that my lvl1 artificer - seposedly primarily a caster class? can solo every lvl1-2 elite quest at lvl1, with an 8 dex.. Purely using a repeater without casting a single spell, or even taking a long a potion. All with basic gear you get for free too.

Guess I could of technically had 8 for all stats, since none of them came into play at all.

I dunno, i think turbine would care if they go thru the trouble of designing all these spells and no one bothers to use them because crossbows outclass them in every way.

The speeds prolly fine for high lvl assuming its not much faster.. But there shoudl be some sense of progression..
Not lvl1= machine gun
lvl20 = still machine gun

You are right the crossbows are very good at the starter island even without stats, BUT as soon you leave the island you NEED high Dex or Int to hit the targets.

To boost your damage you NEED spells like Elemental Weapons, Insightful Damage or Flame Turret and the Artificer is no pure caster in my opinion. He uses spells to increase his damage and to repair himself and his pet.

The damage progression is not attack speed in my opinion. It is damage per shot.

[Seikojin]

Was messing about with my level 16 mechanic repeater rogue. Has pbs, rapid reload and rapid shot. Can't say that really seemed much faster.

Melee still seems quicker as its a constant attack speed rather than 3 quick shots then a second or so reloading.

Xbow changes seem to make them at least viable now at low levels. My barb when i TR'd him destroyed mobs much quicker though at low levels (as it should be).

I suspect at higher levels and with dungeon scaling in groups repeaters will still fall far behind as their damage is not likely to improve much where as melee toons gets much better as you level.

Could you get some shots per minute? This way anyeon who gets to 16 before Monday can compare an arty to this.

[Chai]

Go roll an 8 str WF wizard, put a "+1 (Risia Frost) 2-hand of pure good" on it, and level it to 7th level using no offensive spells, just swinging and repair spells. Hard, elite, doesn't matter, I never miss, and kill things in 1-2 hits. After 7th level, swap to being a caster (Wall of Fire).

Swapping 2-handed sword for repeater really makes no difference from level 1-7. As you said originally, if this holds up to level 20, then you might have a complaint. But from 1-7, its no different than on live with 2-h fighting.

I was just going to post something similar.

And add 2 point SLAs that one shot most mobs until well into the teen levels for sorcs after level 6.

Crossbows actually being useful will be a sight for sore eyes.

[Havok.cry]

Since when are artificers any more primary casters than bards? They are specialists... they can be casters, but then they won't be nearly as good at xbow or melee.

[Diyon]

yeah there is the spell that gives us the ability to use int for damage but to use that you cant use the one that uses int for to-hit

Okay, please let me know if I'm missing something here. I keep seeing people say this, but it doesn't make sense:

That spell lets you use your INT mod for damage on a weapon INSTEAD of the stat it normally uses.

Crossbows have NO stat modifying damage. So there's nothing to replace? Do you actually just get it anyways?????


Like I said, I may be missing something, or maybe it just works anyways, but I'd like some confirmation from someone who has seen it actually work.

[Missing_Minds]

No idea how your saying it way out did bow shooting.. Maybe your talkign live?

yes I was, however, I also forgot about the change to pbs which does change things dramatically.

[Ziindarax]

heh seems like they can never get this right..

Too slow before.. now too fast.

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

But right now its pretty much machine gun speed with a light repeater on korthos as an artificer (or anyone with rapir reload, didnt take rapid shot)

tho actaully all crossbows are mega fast now. The crazy OP (for its lvl) greatcrossbow (eladrins) attacks juts as fast as the light crossbow, and does 4d8 base dmg with point blank (plus a few from enhancement/cold).. Basicly 1 shot every monster - with sub 1 second attack rates.

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. I'll leave the testing up to you guys, but feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Add in the 2d8 base dmg from point blank shot, and melees light years behind.

For low lvl i guess its not a huge concern.. But if this scales up that much faster with BAB (doesnt seem like it can, everythign would just be a blur lol).. heh.. needs more tweakin.


Crossbows were worthless prior to the change, now they're actually worth getting. I say they should leave it as is (even if it is "too fast") because this would greatly benefit mechanics and artificers who somewhat have to rely on ranged attacks.

Besides, it's about time turbine made the ranged-combat oriented classes actually be effective contributors to dps, rather than having them basically be another sponge to soak up the healer's mana.

[Dolphious]

Wow, Shade with the first (serious) "nerf artificers!" thread? Didn't see that coming.

[rest]

Wow, Shade with the first (serious) "nerf artificers!" thread? Didn't see that coming.

How did you not? It's not barbarian or barbarian-related. Seems like a natural fit!

[jandhaer]

WHO CARES about elite korthos you can put ANY 2hander in ANY classes hands and do the same 1 shot kills all day. Thats why even on my arcanes I use a greataxe (carnifex, maelstrom) till like L8 sprinting through all difficulties I dont see a difference here or even why this is a problem. Think someone is just mad that the new class wont be just another babysitter in his groups showering him with heals and buffs :P

[little_me]

don't know how this went from repeaters shooting speed to nerf artificers. those two matters are exclusive and don't relate to each other at all.

i have to agree with there being some bugginess STILL with repeater speed.

Tested: 1 minute clicky, count bolts used. test subject heavy repeater. feats Point blank shot, rapid shot, rapid reload.

Live server:
93 bolts, 3 "missed" bolt sequences, meaning 6 lost bolts. translates to 99 if bugs didn't happen.

Lammania, now:
hold attack button... and wait for it.
93!! same speed!! O.o no wait, it's SLOWER (99 in real)

use the "fire yourself, right after reload" thing mentioned:
132 and i made quite few misses, so i would see 140 to 150 being possible.


now, while i've heard of twitch attacks in melee that supposedly increased attack speed a bit, this is bit different though. i mean, over 33% increase in bolts shot in minute?

[Shade]

use the "fire yourself, right after reload" thing mentioned:
132 and i made quite few misses, so i would see 140 to 150 being possible.


Yea pretty nuts.. What BAB tho, and haste?

I have a feeling theres little difference in bab1 and 20 tho whe using manual attack.

[little_me]

13 bab no haste. and that 132 was with messing up some in reloads. new test gave 144 and i say that 150 is possible easily.

so.. 50% increase by twitch. my eye starts twitching at those numbers.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

considering the speed for an artificer with any xbow is so fast becasue of the rapid reload feat they get at level 1.... get rapid fire maes it worse, but hten again, a ranged fighter could take those two feats and repeater proficiency and have the same speed.

[Shade]

13 bab no haste. and that 132 was with messing up some in reloads. new test gave 144 and i say that 150 is possible easily.

so.. 50% increase by twitch. my eye starts twitching at those numbers.

yea pretty crazy.

I wouldn't call it 'twitch' tho.

Given the original game .. we had no hold to attack.. We did have auto attack, but it was slower then manual attack so no one used it.. So if that is twtich, everyone twitched all the time.

Twitch usually refers to using movement to break your attack sequence and improve attack rates.. Not the same.

It's just manual fire.

Which imo should be faster to some degree.. But in the new "MOAR EASY" ddo, it probably won't fly.

[little_me]

also testing seems to claim that on lammania, there is no speed difference between heavy and light repeater.

manual clicking or auto clicking. same number of attacks.

[NeutronStar]

Dear Devs,

Please pay no attention to the OP. I like the idea of having a chance to beat him in a kill count for once. :)

Your Pal,

NS

[Shade]

Wow, Shade with the first (serious) "nerf artificers!" thread? Didn't see that coming.

A) Read the thread title. Crossbows. Not artificers. If it was purely a artificers thing, i would of put it in the right forum.

B) This hasn't gone live, hasn't even been put in the release notes, and could very well simply been an oversight. This is a discussion thread for the changes, not me asking for anything to get nerfed.

I mean manual attacking being far better then auto attack was one of the things I enjoyed about the game back in the module1/2 days.. As much as I miss those days im pretty sure turbine killed those hard in a fire and doesn't intend to go back, thus why I think i feels wrong.

And yea I do feel it's too fast for BAB1..
But like I said, if it's similar speed at BAB20, then for BAB20, sure it's speed is warranted since they are so far behind in dps due to lack of strength bonuses.

I'm very much anti-nerf. But there are gona be times like this when blantant mistakes are made that need to be corrected before live, like it or not.

[Dolphious]

A) Read the thread title. Crossbows. Not artificers. If it was purely a artificers thing, i would of put it in the right forum.

B) This hasn't gone live, hasn't even been put in the release notes, and could very well simply been an oversight. This is a discussion thread for the changes, not me asking for anything to get nerfed.


Oh I know it was completely unfair, but I couldn't help myself ;)

[Helexax]

Not exactly.

Melee swings extremely slow at low bab. And has this thing called lack of range.. So you actaully get hit back while fighting.

So while you can overpowered monsters with 8 dex with a repeater thanks to machine gun rates even if your relying on high rolls/grazing hits while kiting a bit (tho for the most part I didnt even need to kite, it all died before it reached me, as the little dog pet actaully holds agro pretty well)

With melee, it doesn't work so well. You tend to die or drink a ton of potions before you get much anything dead if you try to melee with 8 strength on lvl1-2 hard/elite quests, and even normal most players might need a potion or 2.

If you start 18+ str, well melee IS your primary class ability, so it should work well.


so, everyone who recommends that casters, up till they get firewall, just use masters touch and a melee weapon, are wrong?

[ReaperAlexEU]

i did some speed tests my self when lam went online again.

my test character was a lvl2 fighter with light repeater, rapid shot and rapid reload.

on live i got 75 shots per minute
on lamania i got 69
on lamania after this update its at 90

i also tested 2-handed melee which was in the 80's

after i tested the lvl2 character i tried it on my lvl20 rogue with all the feats, i got a rate in the 90's for both light and heavy repeaters, ie not a lot changed from BaB 2 to BaB 15 (i didnt do a test with divine power to try BaB 20)

so from those findings i think its safe to say it wont scale up much.

getting a rate from 130-150 on a the great xbow sounds like a bug. it feels like the manual fire method is skipping the reload portion which is now split from the fire portion of the animation. i expect that will get fixed at some point.

so for now i'd say there is no balance issue, just a bug and manual fire is not working as intended.

[jakeelala]

A) Read the thread title. Crossbows. Not artificers. If it was purely a artificers thing, i would of put it in the right forum.

B) This hasn't gone live, hasn't even been put in the release notes, and could very well simply been an oversight. This is a discussion thread for the changes, not me asking for anything to get nerfed.

I mean manual attacking being far better then auto attack was one of the things I enjoyed about the game back in the module1/2 days.. As much as I miss those days im pretty sure turbine killed those hard in a fire and doesn't intend to go back, thus why I think i feels wrong.

And yea I do feel it's too fast for BAB1..
But like I said, if it's similar speed at BAB20, then for BAB20, sure it's speed is warranted since they are so far behind in dps due to lack of strength bonuses.

I'm very much anti-nerf. But there are gona be times like this when blantant mistakes are made that need to be corrected before live, like it or not.

i think you're just nervous about it challenging your Barb in a DPS contest.

[NaturalHazard]

heh seems like they can never get this right..

Too slow before.. now too fast.

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

But right now its pretty much machine gun speed with a light repeater on korthos as an artificer (or anyone with rapir reload, didnt take rapid shot)

tho actaully all crossbows are mega fast now. The crazy OP (for its lvl) greatcrossbow (eladrins) attacks juts as fast as the light crossbow, and does 4d8 base dmg with point blank (plus a few from enhancement/cold).. Basicly 1 shot every monster - with sub 1 second attack rates.

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. I'll leave the testing up to you guys, but feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Add in the 2d8 base dmg from point blank shot, and melees light years behind.

For low lvl i guess its not a huge concern.. But if this scales up that much faster with BAB (doesnt seem like it can, everythign would just be a blur lol).. heh.. needs more tweakin.

lol seems worth it to take rapid reload at a low level on any charactor then swap the feat out cheap while still pretty low level once you have made the most of it?

[xAlistairx]

i think you're just nervous about it challenging your Barb in a DPS contest.

I wouldn't say that's an unfair complaint. What do barbarians do? DPS, maybe traps with a splash.

What do artificers do? Well, buff, DPS, have an upgradeable pet, spell damage, traps, UMD, get bonus feats...

You don't see bards running around, out-deeps'ing barbs (in an ordinary case).

[Ziindarax]

I wouldn't say that's an unfair complaint. What do barbarians do? DPS, maybe traps with a splash.

What do artificers do? Well, buff, DPS, have an upgradeable pet, spell damage, traps, UMD, get bonus feats...

You don't see bards running around, out-deeps'ing barbs (in an ordinary case).

You forgot to mention that the Artifcer can ALSO equip the entire party with haste armor, protective force fields, AND give players a spell-enhancement (though temporary) that breaks ALL alignment DR.


Basically, Artificers are practically an omni-class.

[furbyoats]

heh seems like they can never get this right..

Too slow before.. now too fast.

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

But right now its pretty much machine gun speed with a light repeater on korthos as an artificer (or anyone with rapir reload, didnt take rapid shot)

tho actaully all crossbows are mega fast now. The crazy OP (for its lvl) greatcrossbow (eladrins) attacks juts as fast as the light crossbow, and does 4d8 base dmg with point blank (plus a few from enhancement/cold).. Basicly 1 shot every monster - with sub 1 second attack rates.

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. I'll leave the testing up to you guys, but feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Add in the 2d8 base dmg from point blank shot, and melees light years behind.

For low lvl i guess its not a huge concern.. But if this scales up that much faster with BAB (doesnt seem like it can, everythign would just be a blur lol).. heh.. needs more tweakin.

It's a friggin crossbow, after the low low levels it plateaus very quickly. Who cares? Are you going to complain about the damage boosting self buff for artificers? A class that is mostly dedicated to buffing has to have some sort of edge to survive if they build for ranged and have little sp. Show me a crossbow at cap that gets ANYWHERE near the currently used epic two-handers and I'll give your post some thought.

Also you are talking about an imbalance using a technique that is obviously not supposed to be used like that. I say they should look into the increased damage of using supreme cleave in the attack chain as well then? Still have any complaints?

[FrozenNova]

Okay, please let me know if I'm missing something here. I keep seeing people say this, but it doesn't make sense:

That spell lets you use your INT mod for damage on a weapon INSTEAD of the stat it normally uses.

Crossbows have NO stat modifying damage. So there's nothing to replace? Do you actually just get it anyways?????


Like I said, I may be missing something, or maybe it just works anyways, but I'd like some confirmation from someone who has seen it actually work.

You are missing something.
Insightful damage affects crossbows as a special case.
Though it could be argued that the spell allows you to use your int mod instead of the normal no mod.

[Malky]

I wouldn't say that's an unfair complaint. What do barbarians do? DPS, maybe traps with their head.

Fix'd

[Seikojin]

A) Read the thread title. Crossbows. Not artificers. If it was purely a artificers thing, i would of put it in the right forum.

B) This hasn't gone live, hasn't even been put in the release notes, and could very well simply been an oversight. This is a discussion thread for the changes, not me asking for anything to get nerfed.

I mean manual attacking being far better then auto attack was one of the things I enjoyed about the game back in the module1/2 days.. As much as I miss those days im pretty sure turbine killed those hard in a fire and doesn't intend to go back, thus why I think i feels wrong.

And yea I do feel it's too fast for BAB1..
But like I said, if it's similar speed at BAB20, then for BAB20, sure it's speed is warranted since they are so far behind in dps due to lack of strength bonuses.

I'm very much anti-nerf. But there are gona be times like this when blantant mistakes are made that need to be corrected before live, like it or not.

I have to agree. I was looking through other threads on the topic and it seems there is a definite issue. Someone with a mechanic rogue was shooting slower than their arty at a much lower level. Hence why I want to do some testing.

[Grenada]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS9N8dEdZCQ) is the new thing?

Van Helsing is gonna be my new mech/pally :p

[gloopygloop]

heh seems like they can never get this right..

Too slow before.. now too fast.

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

But right now its pretty much machine gun speed with a light repeater on korthos as an artificer (or anyone with rapir reload, didnt take rapid shot)

tho actaully all crossbows are mega fast now. The crazy OP (for its lvl) greatcrossbow (eladrins) attacks juts as fast as the light crossbow, and does 4d8 base dmg with point blank (plus a few from enhancement/cold).. Basicly 1 shot every monster - with sub 1 second attack rates.

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. I'll leave the testing up to you guys, but feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Add in the 2d8 base dmg from point blank shot, and melees light years behind.

For low lvl i guess its not a huge concern.. But if this scales up that much faster with BAB (doesnt seem like it can, everythign would just be a blur lol).. heh.. needs more tweakin.

ZOMG! A CHARACTER WILL BE GOOD AT COMBAT IN LOW LEVEL QUESTS!

Seriously, Shade? You're upset about giving someone an attack speed advantage based on their ability to twitch?

Really?

[Mjesko]

I wouldn't say that's an unfair complaint. What do barbarians do? DPS, maybe traps with a splash.

What do artificers do? Well, buff, DPS, have an upgradeable pet, spell damage, traps, UMD, get bonus feats...

You don't see bards running around, out-deeps'ing barbs (in an ordinary case).

I think the problem are not the crossbows, because they are fine. The problem is the Jedi ... i mean the Artificer. The class gets too many feats. It should get bonus feats only at level 5, 10, 15 and 20.

[Seikojin]

No, the problem is the new break in attack and reload (in response to the 'its not op' remarks). Because there is a break, you can refire before the reload animation happens and fire faster than holding the attack button down or having auto attack on.

I ran through without rapid reload and was firing between 2 to 3 bolts per second out of a regular crossbow and 6-9 with a repeater. I havent tested with rapid yet, but if it does increase the speed, then it just makes it that more obtuse of an issue.

Given the phat 1000% exp boost, I will be able to test down the line with the xbows.

[budalic]

Did anyone check differences between various BAB speeds? Perhaps now speed for all BABs is one you were supposed to get at BAB +20?

Still, I think even that, though broken, would be better than leaving all speeds at Khortos level.

[LupusVai]

On higher BAB toons they fire slower on lamania than on live.

Level 17 mechanic using HR with rapid shot and rapid reload.
Live
Bab 12. 87 shots including 3 misfires which only shot 1 bolt per reload (would guess thats 90 if all shots fired as should. Couldnt get all shots to fire correctly over 1 minute)
Bab 17 (DP clickie) 108 shots (all shots fired correctly as well strangely)

Lam server
Bab 12 . 90 shots (approx the same as live if you compensate for missing shots)
Bab 17 (dp clickie) 90 shots! (so a loss of 18 shots)

Conclusion based on very limited testing is that speed of reload/shots do not scale with BAB as they should.

EDIT . Bab was 17 with DP clickie not 16. ;-)

[Coldin]

It's pretty fast sure, but as our artificer group was getting to run Delera's and such, we were having a more difficult time. I'll be interested to see how they perform running Vale quests.

As someone else said, Artificers need to boost up the damage per shot, and can't rely solely on the rate of fire. I'm not going to call for nerf to the speed just yet, as it finally feels engaging and fun to play a crossbow user at low levels.

Everyone pretty much tears through Korthos and the Harbor at low levels. It's at the high levels that we'll have to see how they do.

[Valakai]

At low levels it feels like god-mode. God with a machinegun to be precise. Even though it does scale as you get your int to damage at later levels it feels like it is still good but not OP as the attack speed does not seem to scale much...if at all. Havent gone past level 10 so cant really comment beyond there but 1-6 it was omg***diediedie and 6-8 it was still fast but started to feel like it was not all that OP anymore. At around level 10 I felt like I was still ahead of the melee a bit but not by a big margin.

[Fecerak]

What is so wrong about reaching 130ish or w/e shots a minute? Isn't TWF on average like, 180 hits or something? Not to mention, the only mod you can get to damage with repeaters is int, which is a lot tougher to stack than str, the fact that the named ones are worse, and that they have a worse crit profile. The burst during endless fusilade is kinda insane though =P

[Ertay]

Yea the attack speed they currently get a low lvl seems a bit overboard, but I suppose it won't scale all that much at high lvl so I'm pretty confident that balance at high lvl, where it counts, will be mostly unaffected. Actually I'm a bit sad they are so powerful now, because this means they crossbows will get nerfed, and nerfed hard.

I for one will make sure to lvl my new artificer as fast as humanly possible and enjoy it while it lasts, to dodge the impending nerf bat...

[Aaxeyu]

so, everyone who recommends that casters, up till they get firewall, just use masters touch and a melee weapon, are wrong?

Yes.

[Shade]

What is so wrong about reaching 130ish or w/e shots a minute? Isn't TWF on average like, 180 hits or something? Not to mention, the only mod you can get to damage with repeaters is int, which is a lot tougher to stack than str, the fact that the named ones are worse, and that they have a worse crit profile. The burst during endless fusilade is kinda insane though =P

At BAB1 TWF is horrendously slow. Not 180 hits, sub 90.
At BAB20 TWF is pretty fast.

At BAB1 crossbow can do something like 150 shots per min.
At BAB13 crosscbow can do something like 150 shots per min.

Seeing the problem yet?

Anyways less talk and someone with the proper character go and do some testing.

The biggest issue I see is the aparent lack of scaling.

Being a god at lvl1, then a completely wortless gimp at lvl20 isn't balanced, nor fun.

[Shade]

On higher BAB toons they fire slower on lamania than on live.

Level 17 mechanic using HR with rapid shot and rapid reload.
Live
Bab 12. 87 shots including 3 misfires which only shot 1 bolt per reload (would guess thats 90 if all shots fired as should. Couldnt get all shots to fire correctly over 1 minute)
Bab 17 (DP clickie) 108 shots (all shots fired correctly as well strangely)

Lam server
Bab 12 . 90 shots (approx the same as live if you compensate for missing shots)
Bab 17 (dp clickie) 90 shots! (so a loss of 18 shots)

Conclusion based on very limited testing is that speed of reload/shots do not scale with BAB as they should.

EDIT . Bab was 17 with DP clickie not 16. ;-)

weird. Your testing seems to show they SLOT down as you level up..

Missing some key info tho:
Haste?
Manual fire or auto fire?

[kcru]

At BAB1 TWF is horrendously slow. Not 180 hits, sub 90.
At BAB20 TWF is pretty fast.

At BAB1 crossbow can do something like 150 shots per min.
At BAB13 crosscbow can do something like 150 shots per min.


The main difference may be that your crossbow scales via feats which you can take immediately, while TWF scales by feats that you can't take all of at level 1. When TWF gets to do 80%+ offhand attacks I'm sure it's leaving the crossbow in the dust.



The biggest issue I see is the aparent lack of scaling.

Being a god at lvl20, then a completely wortless gimp at lvl20 isn't balanced, nor fun.

Eladrin mentioned that he fixed the fact that Bows weren't factoring in BAB speed adjustments or Haste. It's not clear that these made it into this update. Scaling may come in the next patch.

[Isolani]

Yea but the repeater is actually worse then the greatcrossbow.

Even a light crossbow is pretty crazy.

Maybe thats how artifcrs are intended to work?

But this isnt a artificer only thing.. You could put rapid reload on any class and get the same silly speed and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

This wouldn't really bother me...at least it's something different than flailing around with a Carnifex for the first 6 or 7 levels, which is what I do now with pretty much any class I play. If ranged is viable even if just for the low levels, I could take rapid reload and swap it out later just for some variety.

[LupusVai]

weird. Your testing seems to show they SLOT down as you level up..

Missing some key info tho:
Haste?
Manual fire or auto fire?

No, it shows that at bab 12 and bab 17 they fire the same ammount of shots 90 per minute on Lamannia. Testing was done by holding down the mouse button for a minute. No haste.

On live its about 90 shots with a bab of 12 (if you didnt have the missing shots that is) and 108 shots per minute with bab 17.

Also just tested my level 7 artificer and he was firing 90 shots per minute by way of the same testing.

Seems that the speed of shots is capped at 90 shots per minute on lamannia and BAB has no effect.

[little_me]

Seems that the speed of shots is capped at 90 shots per minute on lamannia and BAB has no effect.

which is right, at the moment but also wrong, since Eladrin said that the changes should INCREASE repeater speed in the end. that 90 (autofire) is less than currently on live.

also, both repeaters have same speed now (90) and as such, choosing which one to use is pointless. bigger damage wins, not possible increase in shooting speed even if gains would be debatable and marginal.

also we can safely declare that there are some bugs still in repeater speeds since 90 (auto) and up to 150 (manual) shot counts are bit... different? and neither level or BAB seem to affect shots/minute count.

[Shade]

Did some testing to get exact values.. Check the OP for results.

[Taimasan]

I think someone is just a little afraid thats all.

[little_me]

yes, afraid that these bugs make it to live!!

well, they shouldn't, whole crossbow speed changes should be left out if not fixed, for ALL crossbows.

funny thing, being proficient or not with great crossbow does not affect shooting speed. okay, so it maybe doesn't.

auto attacks on light, heavy and great crossbow ALL use/shoot 2 bolts/attack. attack is rolled only for one though. so they are half repeaters? with 50% bolt loss?

ah well, hopefully we get another look at how things will go after devs apply some band aids.

[Shade]

I think someone is just a little afraid thats all.

Yes yes I plan to make a new barbarian the day U11 comes out and run with all crossbow users and try out outkill them.

So afraid. You got me!

....

I only play endgame these days as im rather bored with low lvl content.. So I have no plans to make a new melee or any sort at low lvl.. Infact ill be there with everyone else fire'ing off my machine gun probably (well after I crush all the new content)

And at lvl20? If they aren't using spells for DPS, they're doing it wrong. Crossbows wiill still pale in comparions to melee and spell dps as always at 20 with current rates.

It's overpowered for BAB1, nothing special for 20.

Im afraid for new players playing melee trying to have any fun what so ever in a group at low lvl with crossbow users. If the player behind the crossbow is at all skilled, they wont get to swing at anything at least for the first few levels. Is it a big concern to me personally? not really. Should it be addressed? yea.

[Taimasan]

Yes yes I plan to make a new barbarian the day U11 comes out and run with all crossbow users and try out outkill them.

So afraid. You got me!

....

I only play endgame these days as im rather bored with low lvl content.. So I have no plans to make a new melee or any sort at low lvl.. Infact ill be there with everyone else fire'ing off my machine gun probably (well after I crush all the new content)

And at lvl20? If they aren't using spells for DPS, they're doing it wrong. Crossbows wiill still pale in comparions to melee and spell dps as always at 20 with current rates.

It's overpowered for BAB1, nothing special for 20.

Im afraid for new players playing melee trying to have any fun what so ever in a group at low lvl with crossbow users. If the player behind the crossbow is at all skilled, they wont get to swing at anything at least for the first few levels. Is it a big concern to me personally? not really. Should it be addressed? yea.

Yea I can agree with that.

[voodoogroves]

Everyone pretty much tears through Korthos and the Harbor at low levels. It's at the high levels that we'll have to see how they do.

Smart vets can tear through Korthos on Sorc2/Cleric1/Barb1 multiclasses wielding ham sandwiches ... so I think your caution is well-founded ;-)

[Schmoe]

I think someone is just a little afraid thats all.

I tried this out myself last night, and I am certain that there is a bug in the script for crossbow firing. Testing was done with a level 1 artificer using a light crossbow. Here are the problems:


If you click once to fire, you can click again about half-way through the reload animation to fire another shot immediately. Using this method, you get a much faster rate of fire than you do just by holding down the attack button.
If you slot the crossbow into a weapon set and put the weapon set on your hotbar, equipping the weapon set also causes you to fire a single shot with the crossbow.
If you keep your crossbow equipped, attempting to interact with many items, such as chests, will sometimes cause you to fire the crossbow instead.


Given those problems, I can't see how anyone would say the crossbow script is WAI.

Also, I briefly tested rate of fire for bows. Testing was done with a Ranger 8/Fighter 4/Rogue 1 (BAB 12) using a Silver Longbow. I held down the mouse button to fire and did not use Manyshot.

On Live, I got 24 shots in 30 seconds
On Lammania, I got 27 shots in 30 seconds

For that test, it appears that Lammania is giving about a 10-15% rate of fire increase over Live.

[Cyr]

It sounds like the following things are happening all of them incorrectly:


Breaking an animation is allowing for a set attack speed much higher then expected. Similar to why twitch attacking works, but requires no movement.
There is no scaling based upon BAB
Rapid Shot does not seem to be doing anything of note
Due to no scaling and just holding down auto-attack rate of fire at high levels is behind live
All in all it sounds like the code is a mess and worse part of it is tied up in animations which Turbine has done really horrible jobs of addressing in the past (twitch, sunder...)

[xAlistairx]

You forgot to mention that the Artifcer can ALSO equip the entire party with haste armor, protective force fields, AND give players a spell-enhancement (though temporary) that breaks ALL alignment DR.


Basically, Artificers are practically an omni-class.

I completely agree. It isn't really the crossbows. It's the fact that they made artificers too dang good. Like, way, way too good.

Inb4: "dooOOOOoo0000m!", "There well balnaced!"

EDIT: Wait, don't want to derail thread. The crossbows do seem pretty dang quick. Like there's no time whatsoever inbetween shots. BTW, I click each time I shoot, I don't hold it.

[rimble]

I completely agree. It isn't really the crossbows. It's the fact that they made artificers too dang good. Like, way, way too good.

The real power in ranged is when everyone is doing it. Even if you just had a party of AAs today, having them all walking around focus fire turreting everything down is impressive. This may artificially inflate the impressiveness of Artificers, when they band together in ranged turreting groups of doom. I can't wait.

I have never been a fan of any sort of 'twitch' advantage though, so I hope they can address that.

[little_me]

If you keep your crossbow equipped, attempting to interact with many items, such as chests, will sometimes cause you to fire the crossbow instead.


Given those problems, I can't see how anyone would say the crossbow script is WAI.


happens due to the new "don't reload unless told to" feature added to crossbows. It was added to allow for faster weapon switch after mobs got back to you, not forcing you to reload crossbow before switching weapon.
as for the firing, it is part of the "if out of combat for X seconds, reload automatically" feature, which doesn't actually shoot a bolt. (i thought also that it did) but just does the shooting animation/sound and reloads the crossbow.

[gloopygloop]

If you keep your crossbow equipped, attempting to interact with many items, such as chests, will sometimes cause you to fire the crossbow instead.

Given those problems, I can't see how anyone would say the crossbow script is WAI.


If this bug stays, Artificers will not be welcome in my HoX runs or Piker's Fate runs. And that makes me sad.

[jandhaer]

On Live, I got 24 shots in 30 seconds
On Lammania, I got 27 shots in 30 seconds

For that test, it appears that Lammania is giving about a 10-15% rate of fire increase over Live.

Ya but I thought it should be more shots fired in Lamannia since isn't there a bug on the live servers with repeaters not firing all shots, that was supposed to be fixed in Lamannia atm?

[Seikojin]

With the exp bonus going on, it will be easy to make a couple of builds to test all the rates out. Can't do that on live though, for comparisons.

[little_me]

Ya but I thought it should be more shots fired in Lamannia since isn't there a bug on the live servers with repeaters not firing all shots, that was supposed to be fixed in Lamannia atm?



Also, I briefly tested rate of fire for bows. Testing was done with a Ranger 8/Fighter 4/Rogue 1 (BAB 12) using a Silver Longbow. I held down the mouse button to fire and did not use Manyshot.

On Live, I got 24 shots in 30 seconds
On Lammania, I got 27 shots in 30 seconds

For that test, it appears that Lammania is giving about a 10-15% rate of fire increase over Live.

as you notice, it was for bows.

[jcTharin]

If this bug stays, Artificers will not be welcome in my HoX runs or Piker's Fate runs. And that makes me sad.

why?

[NeutronStar]

why?

Because you might start the raid prematurely just by equipping your X-Bow. (it may fire unexpectedly, see Schmoe's post above)

[Shade]

My testing never showed that. (random misfires)

Was a display bug only for me. Equiped crossbows while aiming at a monster - and yea it makes the animation/sound like your fireing, but mobs never got agro'd and no bolts never flew.

Maybe its a rare bug.

[sirdanile]

as you notice, it was for bows.

Actually they completely recripted crossbows, repeater xbows were losing shots (Still firing animation, but no hit)

Bows only lose a shot or 2 when the target is moving oddly, and then the projectile still fires and hits something.

[Schmoe]

My testing never showed that. (random misfires)

Was a display bug only for me. Equiped crossbows while aiming at a monster - and yea it makes the animation/sound like your fireing, but mobs never got agro'd and no bolts never flew.

Maybe its a rare bug.

It is possible it was just a display bug. If so, the bug doesn't seem quite as serious, although it is still very annoying. I got the extraneous "shot" every time I equipped, so it should be easy to test. If no one else has by tonight, I'll log in to re-test.

[junta74]

Hawk teh Slayz0r! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veszrg1TErk)
xBow at :24 and :45 ... pity no one uploaded the "oceans of arrows and bolts" clip. :D

Also, so much of my life ... wasted. :(

Jack Palance's best work IMHO.

[Failedlegend]

It sounds like the following things are happening all of them incorrectly:


Breaking an animation is allowing for a set attack speed much higher then expected. Similar to why twitch attacking works, but requires no movement.
There is no scaling based upon BAB
Rapid Shot does not seem to be doing anything of note
Due to no scaling and just holding down auto-attack rate of fire at high levels is behind live
All in all it sounds like the code is a mess and worse part of it is tied up in animations which Turbine has done really horrible jobs of addressing in the past (twitch, sunder...)

So basically the twitch speed is broken and technically is an exploit thus should not be used.

The normal attacking (hold down and fire) is just fine except it doesn't scale with BAB
so sucks more with every level you gain.

So fix the twitch exploit and make BAB Scale the speed...sounds like it needs a buff not a nerf.

[Schmoe]

I tried this out myself last night, and I am certain that there is a bug in the script for crossbow firing. Testing was done with a level 1 artificer using a light crossbow. Here are the problems:

Well, I logged in again last night to try being a little more thorough in testing these scenarios. I'm happy to say I was wrong about a couple of things.



If you click once to fire, you can click again about half-way through the reload animation to fire another shot immediately. Using this method, you get a much faster rate of fire than you do just by holding down the attack button.

This problem remains.


If you slot the crossbow into a weapon set and put the weapon set on your hotbar, equipping the weapon set also causes you to fire a single shot with the crossbow.


I can confirm that, as little_me mentioned above, this is a graphics-only problem. Although every single time I equipped a crossbow it appeared that I fired it, in fact no bolts were fired and no enemies were alerted.


If you keep your crossbow equipped, attempting to interact with many items, such as chests, will sometimes cause you to fire the crossbow instead.


This last issue happened much more infrequently than my previous perception. It only happened a handful of times throughout about an hour of playing. It also happened a couple of times while swimming, and once while strafing down a hall. Like the equip bug, it seems that this is also a graphics-only problem. No bolts were fired (I had my ammo hot-barred so I could check).

I have to say, when I was running around with a Great Crossbow at low-levels with the rate of fire that you can get by short-circuiting the script, it felt like god-mode. It actually brought me back to my old FPS days, circle-strafing through rooms and blasting the **** out of enemies with my double-barreled shotgun, er, Great Crossbow. The effects were similar.

I don't really know how to compare it to an arcane with Master's Touch and a great axe. I've done both, and my recollection is that results might actually be roughly comparable. But the artificer with the crossbow felt invincible, so who knows?

I really hope that the crossbow scripting is re-visited. The graphical glitches are obnoxious. The short-click just feels "wrong". And most importantly, from what others have reported, the rate of fire does not scale well with BAB. If the shiny new class, artificers, is supposed to focus on using crossbows, then we should expect crossbows to function properly.

[Failedlegend]

So again just to clarify the so called overpowered speed of xbows is an EXPLOIT therefore should be ignored when trying to balance things (not ignored by devs though) so the only number we should be looking at is the proper firing speed of 90SPM for repeaters which is nice at low levels but since it doesn't scale with BAB after a few levels it falls behind melees.

[Mjesko]

If you click once to fire, you can click again about half-way through the reload animation to fire another shot immediately. Using this method, you get a much faster rate of fire than you do just by holding down the attack button.


Given those problems, I can't see how anyone would say the crossbow script is WAI.


I think the problem is that the second click to reload the weapon is not needed, because it reloads automatically, but the new mechanic should be one click for the attack and one click for reloading.

[Failedlegend]

I think the problem is that the second click to reload the weapon is not needed, because it reloads automatically, but the new mechanic should be one click for the attack and one click for reloading.

It DOES work that way but the ability to hold down the button and have it do the clicks for you is WAI the ability to rapidly click and skip animations is NOT WAI.

[anto_capone]

As fast and powerful as they are at low levels, the mid levels so far make xbows seem a lot weaker.

But then again, I don't have a lit 2 heavy repeater for my arti. :D

[Shade]

Manually attacking is absolutely not an exploit.

This isn't WoW. Isn't a cookie cutter mmo where you stand still, autoattack and hope your stats are high enough to win. No matter how much you want otherwise - player skill is a major factor in DDO, and allowing to be appied to cross bow use doesn't make it an exploit.

The original game infact had ALL weapons ALWAYS attack faster when used manually. Was like this for MONTHs.

They artifically and PURPOSELY built in delays on auto attak. This was documented, Talked about by the devs and 100% intentional. It was part of the DDOs "Active combat!" style.

Were we all (or well 99% of players, almost no one use auto attack) purposely exploiting for months and months before they decided to change this?

No.

Using your skill as a player is not an exploit.

[Cyr]

So again just to clarify the so called overpowered speed of xbows is an EXPLOIT therefore should be ignored when trying to balance things (not ignored by devs though) so the only number we should be looking at is the proper firing speed of 90SPM for repeaters which is nice at low levels but since it doesn't scale with BAB after a few levels it falls behind melees.

It most certainly is NOT an exploit. It is a stupid horrible bug that the developers made, but the moment simply not using auto-attack becomes an exploit in DDO is the moment they should shut the doors and go home. It's a bug that needs to be fixed. It should not be considered WAI, but not WAI != exploit.

Yes, the only thing we should be looking at (beyond screaming to fix this horrible bug so we can properly evaluate how the system actually should work) is the non-scaling with BAB which pretty much also has to be another bug...

Basically it's almost impossible to give any quality feedback about the actual system in place when most of it is just not working right.

[Failedlegend]

It most certainly is NOT an exploit. It is a stupid horrible bug that the developers made, but the moment simply not using auto-attack becomes an exploit in DDO is the moment they should shut the doors and go home. It's a bug that needs to be fixed. It should not be considered WAI, but not WAI != exploit.

Yes, the only thing we should be looking at (beyond screaming to fix this horrible bug so we can properly evaluate how the system actually should work) is the non-scaling with BAB which pretty much also has to be another bug...

Basically it's almost impossible to give any quality feedback about the actual system in place when most of it is just not working right.

I still think its an exploit to misuse a bug but my main point was that people are calling for nerfs of repeaters and artificers BECAUSE of this bug without infroming people its not supposed to work that way so its spreading like wild fire...so IOW if your going to report something please include all the details.

[Missing_Minds]

I still thinsk its an exploit to mis-use a bug but my main point was that people are calling for nerfs of repeaters and artificers BECAUSE of this bug.

I haven't played it as I'm not about to bother with lama, but from this thread it sounds similar to 2hander twitch fighting.

If it is... why haven't these same people cried fowl before?

[rimble]

And yea I did verify thats possible to do manually also, got 147 bolts off, with 1 mistimed click, so 150 if i did it flawless. (Easy enough with a macro)


Using your skill as a player is not an exploit.

Player skill = recording a macro on your keyboard.

[rimble]

I haven't played it as I'm not about to bother with lama, but from this thread it sounds similar to 2hander twitch fighting.

If it is... why haven't these same people cried fowl before?

I've never liked it, but it's not a big enough issue for me to rally against.

I also feel like this particular 'twitch' is much much more macroable/scriptable than up-close melee twitch fighting.

I've been wanting to play a Repeater character for a long time, I've tried many different ways, and I'm not looking forward to having a 'twitch' system be important to my DPS. I'll just macro that during boss fights and go potty or something.

'Twitch' just doesn't equate to 'player skill' in my mind.

[Failedlegend]

I haven't played it as I'm not about to bother with lama, but from this thread it sounds similar to 2hander twitch fighting.

If it is... why haven't these same people cried fowl before?

Well its seems that "Twitch" used to only assist 2-Handed melee classes like Barbarian but now that ranged is starting creep towards being a viable form of combat melee peoples are getting touchy and calling for nerfs which is funny because outside of the Exploit/bug/twitch or w/e you want to call it Repeater RoF has actually been nerfed compared to live.



I've been wanting to play a Repeater character for a long time, I've tried many different ways, and I'm not looking forward to having a 'twitch' system be important to my DPS.

'Twitch' just doesn't equate to 'player skill' in my mind.

What he said :D except in Mario Party :P In that game the guy who gets seizures always wins...at least that's what it looks like to and observer whenever their doing a mini-game.

Note: Wasn't 2-Hander Twitch removed?? Something to do with glancing (grazing??) Blows.

[Failedlegend]

Issue Settled


Held vs. clicked should have identical fire rates. We abandoned the old ways of auto-attacking being worse than fast clicking a while ago.

It's a bug and IMHO an Exploit. the REAL SPM of repeaters is curently 90RPM and hopefully the lack of BAB scaling is a bug cause 90RPM is nice until like lvl 6 or 7 than melees stop being equal (assuming equivalent equipment & stats) and pull ahead.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Yes, and really, my only point was that right now, on live, you can ignore your class skills and just 2-hand your way to level 7, even on a Wizard. I did Tear of Dhakaan Elite on a level 6 wizard with nothing but Masters Touch, regular Heroism potions, and repair spells, with a +1 Holy (Risia Frost) 2handed Sword of Pure Good, and I almost never missed. I don't see any issue with the new power of xbows and/or repeaters from levels 1-7, but I agree with Shade that we need more data on how it performs at higher levels to see if it scales up or not.


Well, we know the damage doesn't. Melees have all the str buffs in the world and all kinds of crit buffs to take out the trash ( and I have a baby barb at level 12, who's just getting good).

Sadly, i don't think they're going to let us xbow types have an even crazier twitch than the THF used to have (I know there's still some twitch, but with THF glancings etc, the disparity isn't as bad). But it'll be fun while it lasts on Lamaland;)

[Veriden]

Head of rangers and monk's nerf department called, they want our attack speed back from update five. This will make up for the uber buffs to cross bows and casters these past 6 updates.

[little_me]

Head of rangers and monk's nerf department called, they want our attack speed back from update five. This will make up for the uber buffs to cross bows and casters these past 6 updates.

sure, as long as you click for each attack. hold attack button and you'll drop below current attack speed. :D

[Seikojin]

So again just to clarify the so called overpowered speed of xbows is an EXPLOIT therefore should be ignored when trying to balance things (not ignored by devs though) so the only number we should be looking at is the proper firing speed of 90SPM for repeaters which is nice at low levels but since it doesn't scale with BAB after a few levels it falls behind melees.

This isn't live, so a bug is a bug is a bug. If it was live, it would still be a bug. It could go to live with a note saying fix pending... Still nothing spells out exploit.

As much of an advantage it can give, you have to use skill to do it, and it isn't 100% difficulty bypassing, so again not an exploit.

[Aashrym]

Issue Settled



It's a bug and IMHO an Exploit. the REAL SPM of repeaters is curently 90RPM and hopefully the lack of BAB scaling is a bug cause 90RPM is nice until like lvl 6 or 7 than melees stop being equal (assuming equivalent equipment & stats) and pull ahead.

Manual firing is not an exploit, it's an option. Right now manual firing appears to not be WAI but manually attacking is itself not an exploit. That is the difference I see here. In the meantime, it definitely has a FPS feel to it in the lower levels so I say enjoy it while it lasts. ;)

[Seikojin]

After playing all weekend, I have come to the following:
Even if you do not click through reloading, your attack rate with repeaters is a bit fast. I suggest making repeaters have .25 second longer attack animation, or .12 second longer attack animation... This will spread out the dps a bit and make it feel less insane.

BUT, that is with repeaters working the way they are now on Lam. Who is to say things won't balance out in the next Lam update.

For other xbows and bows, it is all good. Non repeaters are great and all, but dps wise, they just don't do the work that melee will do, but they are solid enough IMHO for ranged users to use them as their primary for damage and not get excluded from groups.

[Failedlegend]

After playing all weekend, I have come to the following:
Even if you do not click through reloading, your attack rate with repeaters is a bit fast.

No they aren't at 20 BAB with ALL the relevant feats they only get about 90SPM (Shots Per Minute) while TWFs get about 180 SPM (Strikes Per Minute)..Monks even higher than that. With THF somewhere in between.

[Aashrym]

After playing all weekend, I have come to the following:
Even if you do not click through reloading, your attack rate with repeaters is a bit fast. I suggest making repeaters have .25 second longer attack animation, or .12 second longer attack animation... This will spread out the dps a bit and make it feel less insane.

BUT, that is with repeaters working the way they are now on Lam. Who is to say things won't balance out in the next Lam update.

For other xbows and bows, it is all good. Non repeaters are great and all, but dps wise, they just don't do the work that melee will do, but they are solid enough IMHO for ranged users to use them as their primary for damage and not get excluded from groups.

They are still fast using auto fire but nowhere near as fast as manual firing, true. The issue with slowing them down is that they already lose that edge at higher levels a bit.

I don't think it's worth lowering the speed early if it will impact them negatively later. I wouldn't mind lowering that at earlier levels somehow but not at a cost at higher levels.

[Seikojin]

They are still fast using auto fire but nowhere near as fast as manual firing, true. The issue with slowing them down is that they already lose that edge at higher levels a bit.

I don't think it's worth lowering the speed early if it will impact them negatively later. I wouldn't mind lowering that at earlier levels somehow but not at a cost at higher levels.

Yeah, that is why I put the caveat about fixes tot he current issues. I guess if a dev said it was bugged out or not, then we would have a better idea of the direction it is going.

[Failedlegend]

Apparently the EXPLOIT has been squashed so no worries about people abusing that anymore but it also been change so that BAB now affects XBOW RoF...has anyone tested this yet?

Edit: Hmm...didn't realize asking if anyone had tested something yet was worthy of neg rep...oh well.

[little_me]

Apparently the EXPLOIT has been squashed so no worries about people abusing that anymore but it also been change so that BAB now affects XBOW RoF...has anyone tested this yet?

if by exploit, you mean that you get more shots/minute with manual clicks than auto attack, then no. it is NOT squished.

less effective? sure, only up to +15-20% compared to earlier +60% but still there.

[Coldin]

There's a still a slight delay between reloading and firing while auto-attacking. If that delay was gone, then the speeds of auto-fire and manual firing would be identical.

[little_me]

There's a still a slight delay between reloading and firing while auto-attacking. If that delay was gone, then the speeds of auto-fire and manual firing would be identical.

pretty much, yes.

99 bolts/minute, live
111 bolts/minute, lam auto
120+ bolts/minute, lam manual (with some timing mess ups)

so, good direction, bolts/minute increase to live and no vanishing bolts (yay!) but still sadly quite big gap between auto and manual fire.

[Failedlegend]

pretty much, yes.

99 bolts/minute, live
111 bolts/minute, lam auto
120+ bolts/minute, lam manual (with some timing mess ups)

so, good direction, bolts/minute increase to live and no vanishing bolts (yay!) but still sadly quite big gap between auto and manual fire.

I'm assuming that's at lvl 20 with all relevant ranged feats?? 110+ still seems a bit low vs. 180 but better than 90.

[little_me]

level 18 rogue, with all relevant feats. thus 13 bab.

of course, it might be after these changes that repeater usage goes only for full bab classes if lvl 20 rogue 15 bab wont get them high enough attack speed.

by 180, you are looking at bab 20 melee attack count?
While that is all good, for classes using repeater (as class related thing, thus artificer/rogue mechanic) Their attack speed with it should be relative to what they can do in melee or somewhat lower due to "safe distance" clause.
While divine power clickies are all good for boosting bab and they should help some.. making them mandatory for ranged is.. hopefully not the goal.

melee?
khopesh vs repeater...
bonus to damage from STR vs INT. we know STR is easier to boost up.
power attack and PBS kind of stand on same line. maybe with advantage for PBS for bigger damage boost and no to hit penalties.
Khopesh wins in critical multiplier
Khopesh wins also in vorpals and assasinations (as in, you can't quite assasinate with ranged, can you?)

feat costs? TWF, ITWF GTWF against RS, RR, precise shot, imp. precise shot. bit tied here.

[Failedlegend]

level 18 rogue, with all relevant feats. thus 13 bab.

of course, it might be after these changes that repeater usage goes only for full bab classes if lvl 20 rogue 15 bab wont get them high enough attack speed.

While divine power clickies are all good for boosting bab and they should help some.. making them mandatory for ranged is.. hopefully not the goal.

Agreed even though you could use divine power clickies (especially if your an Arty) I'd prefer if it was based on character level or maybe off your dex modifier or w/e as opposed to BAB especially since the two most effective X-Bow wielders (Mech Rogue and Arty) are both 3/4 BAB classes.



by 180, you are looking at bab 20 melee attack count?
While that is all good, for classes using repeater (as class related thing, thus artificer/rogue mechanic) Their attack speed with it should be relative to what they can do in melee or somewhat lower due to "safe distance" clause.


I personally disagree with the claim that ranged toons are immune to attack (especially since alot of enhancements and items disregard ranged attacks...ie. threat reduction) BUT nonetheless I was hoping for something along the line of 130-140 SPM (Coming in just under THF which IIRC is 150...but they get bonus damage on mod and glancing blows)



khopesh vs repeater...
bonus to damage from STR vs INT. we know STR is easier to boost up.
power attack and PBS kind of stand on same line. maybe with advantage for PBS for bigger damage boost and no to hit penalties.
Khopesh wins in critical multiplier
Khopesh wins also in vorpals and assasinations (as in, you can't quite assasinate with ranged, can you?)


Agree...add that the repeater is more effective against multiple enemies due to IPS

Also spells like Haste, Armor of Speed, etc. only have approx half the effect on ranged....unless they changed that with the latest lama update.

[little_me]

You forgot PBS (pre-req for everything) so its 3 vs. 5

no, i did not. i'm assuming that melee takes power attack and ranged takes pbs.
one feat for both. okay, so that is 4-5 still.


and by that "safe clause" i didn't mean immune and safe to attacks. but lets say, less threatened? if you move, like you can do and shoot... well, you can retreat and swing melee weapons too.. except some swings end up in air most likely, you can avoid attacks from few enemies. While enemies can "stack" they don't always do so, especially when following and trying to attack someone. teleporters non-withstanding.

so, ranged is somewhat "safer" than melee.

[Failedlegend]

no, i did not. i'm assuming that melee takes power attack and ranged takes pbs.
one feat for both. okay, so that is 4-5 still.


Yeah I had edited by I guess you responded before i finished...sorry about that.



and by that "safe clause" i didn't mean immune and safe to attacks. but lets say, less threatened? if you move, like you can do and shoot... well, you can retreat and swing melee weapons too.. except some swings end up in air most likely, you can avoid attacks from few enemies. While enemies can "stack" they don't always do so, especially when following and trying to attack someone. teleporters non-withstanding.


This I was referring to people who actually DO claim ranged toons are invincible...I wasn't accusing you directly.



so, ranged is somewhat "safer" than melee.


Agreed. Although we must note that you have to "kite" responsibly when in a group either do so in small circles or kite the enemies though the melees as if they were a Blade Barrier.



We're experimenting with another stance that will hopefully help out with single target big sack of hit points fights like the ones you speak of. It'll probably be on the same stance channel as Improved Precise Shot, to give you "multi target" vs. "single target" stances.

Any word on this??

Also I suck at reading comprehension are you saying IPS might have two functions whereas if its on we hit multiple targets but if its off (and you have the feat) we get "X" bonus but only hit one target or maybe like monk stances except you get only 2 called something like "Scatter Shot" (Multi) and Concentrated Fire (Single) with the "Single" Target mode getting some sort of bonus. You receive these when you take Improved Precise Shot.

Alternatively are you saying your adding yet ANOTHER essential feat to ranged combat (Making for 7 PBS, RR, RS, IC:Ranged, PS, IPS and the new one...no toughness for my pure rogue I guess.)

[Failedlegend]

oops double post

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

Now that the nice manual trick has been squashed, someone has to ask the really important question:


When are we getting two-weapon fighting repeater crossbows!?

Van Helsing does it all the time...

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

Any word on this??

Isn't this Fusilade? And even more useful, now that shooting from the hip has been essentially nerfed.

[Failedlegend]

Now that the nice manual trick has been squashed, someone has to ask the really important question:


When are we getting two-weapon fighting repeater crossbows!?

Van Helsing does it all the time...

1d4 Improvised Bludgeoning Weapons??

[Diyon]

Now that the nice manual trick has been squashed, someone has to ask the really important question:


When are we getting two-weapon fighting repeater crossbows!?

Van Helsing does it all the time...

Technically we would need hand crossbows, then repeating hand crossbows in the game first. Although, on that note, TWF SHOULD affect throwing weapons.