Most useless class in DDO?

[gavijal]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

[Memnir]

what class you accept last when you create LFM?The last one to apply to the LFM.

[Bodic]

None are usless.
Some are more useful more often.
only the player is a reason I would decline, or a really bad build from an unknown player.

Hate the player not the class.

[Symerith]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

[SaneDitto]

Coyles.

Named after the pioneer of the "class". ;)


EDIT:


I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

If a rogue is grabbing aggro from a barb in a raid, one of them is doing it wrong.

[danotmano1998]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

I don't look at class or build when I LFM. I accept the first people to apply.
LFM to me means "Looking for More", not "Looking for Specific Few".

Most runs can be completed without a "perfect" party. In fact, the randomness itself adds in a lot of potential for hilarity and fun!

[KraahgDaAxe]

It really depends on the quest, but mostly I will accept any class as they all provide something.

Kraahg

[MasterOfWorlds]

I'm gonna agree with most of the others... I don't really see this query as relevant to the way I play. Bad players are the only useless class. :D

[Ugumagre]

Druid. They just do NOTHING. Its annoying :mad:.

[Battery]

Bad players are the only useless class. :D

this

[mournbladereigns]

Pure barbs, cause they are the least self-sufficient and always whine for HJEALS and buffs, and treat quests like raids. Srsly, barbs are only good for beating on bosses and sponging sp! :)

Also, I'm usually down on pure classers. Learn to build toons and MC, pn00bz!

[darkniteyogi]

im not an end game player, but from 4-19, the ones that tend to survive the most surprisngly to me were the rangers,

to die the most, the rogues.. i find rogues the least useful except in those elite quests with traps. they're more situational, but generally, more useless than the others imo. Sometimes i get surprised to see them leading the kill counts though.. So my impression may be wrong.

i guess what quests ur doing matters

[PNellesen]

Based on my personal rejection experiences:

Pure Tempest Ranger (Because you "Need DPS". Bonus rejection points if he's an Elf)

18 Ranger / 2 Fighter

19 Cleric / 1 Fighter (Only "morons" take a fighter splash on a cleric, or so I've been informed by a particularly knowledgeable party leader)

[somenewnoob]

I'm going to start a rogue and name him "CoylesSquishyLoveChild"

[AMDarkwolf]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

...


Wow. Did u start ddo yesterday? LOL.

I very often see rog's rip agro from barbs. Granted neither is built right(the barb too weak, rog no hate reduct) and i run epics with mine before I TR'ed, soloing many epics. I Still don't get the 'no endgame player plays rog'

Rog is the 'best' class hands down in ddo, since they can gobble up a splash or 2 of any other class and gain so much, have amazing synergy with almost every other class, are (at least till artificer here) the only ones able to dance inside traps while removing that threat from the other party members, the only ones who can be built as tank, as support, as dps, as whatever the player chooses(no other class has that flexibility)

Yes there are SOME rogs who haven't gotten past lv 10 who are squishy. But anyone who 'knows' the class will surprise you. Open up your world and accept rog's when they join. Sure some will make you sign when they die to a kobolds sneeze, but some will also impress you.

[furbyoats]

The standard Arcane Archer. The majority of players who build them never pull out melee weaps and continue to plink and kite while doing minimal damage. I do know a few players who have pure 20 AA's though that are absolutely devastating...because they realize the full potential of the class and actually put the bow away when they need to.

Otherwise the obvious 10Clr/10Wiz or the 10Wiz/10Ftr get auto declined from my lfm's :P. Flavor is cool, but i needs real contributions in my raid slots :D

[mournbladereigns]

Druid. They just do NOTHING. Its annoying :mad:.

Word, they're all BRT, changing my spells, getting buffs, selling/reping, AH, bio, etc. THey expect people to wait and wait for them. Most people are like screw this and finish the game without them.

[Vengenance]

10 Wizzard/10 Sorcs are the worst followed closely by 10 Cleric/10 Ftr. :D

[tlstar]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

wow , a rogue never wants to pull agro from the main tank( he wants to keep his backstab bonuses), if he does he is doing something wrong. or the tank is really gimped or both :)

[Quarterling]

Ranger.

Because people will say "want dps" and have rangers listed but not rogues.

If I was able to take "favored enemy", it would be Class: Ranger.

[Krago]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

Commoner. I dont care how many times he TRed or how uber his rubber chicken is, just no.

[bendover]

Ranger

[danotmano1998]

The most useless class in DDO is Piker. They do nothing!

Followed closely by Druid. Tree hugging good for nothing nature lovers! Seriously. Quit cuddling the squirrels and start hitting things!!!

[somenewnoob]

Hi, I'm Maarl. I'm Canadian. And my rogue sustains 640 HP while often in the 700's. I'll be pleased to kick your face in any day of the week. And since you like slandering rogues, I'll bring Merloc. His rogue is stank nasty and you'll never walk the same again.

What's that you say ay? Not sure what that's all aboot.

[DragonKiller]

Bad players are the only useless class. :D

^^
This.

Every class well played is an asset to the party, every class poorly played is a determent to the party.

And to the Ranger haters... try building one... a good one (i.e. unless they do something to change ranged not a ranged focused one).

[Sarisa]

Not "class", but more class/race combination that just screams out "squishy!" or "don't waste your healing" or "I'm going to kite all over the place!!1!". There are, of course, great players with these combinations, but the "bad" tends to outweigh the good in the PUG scene.

Drow Rogues - Commonly dex/int based, dump con, low HP, low fort ("I don't get hit!"), can't contribute outside of the trap bonus (which is used to make up for their -10% ding penalty).

Elven Rangers - While there are many good melee Rangers, and some good AA Rangers; most of the ones you'll see are AA builds that maxed DEX, dumped STR, don't carry melee weapons, don't carry Resists/FoM, dump con, have low HP and fort ("I don't get hit!"), and expect the party to cater to their kiting huge groups around while SLOWLY plinking them to death.

Those two combinations I cringe the most on.

Other class combinations that have a more even distribution of "good vs. bad":

Drow Sorcerers - Many are good, many dump con and don't compensate for their lower HP with items. Many lately don't carry Haste. I can understand not having Extend, or GH, but not Haste.

Drow Wizards - With Pale Master allowing for FAR better survival along with many other caster benefits, this combination is nowhere near as "cringeworthy" as it once was. Some PM's however still don't understand that they're not nearly immortal without getting the rare loot needed to make them so.

Warforged Barbarians - Far too many have not invested any time in acquiring Healing Amp gear (Blood docent shards are cheap and easily crafted or bought, and work great until you get a DT/Claw Set). Far too many feel that Healer's Friend 1 isn't even worth taking. When you run an epic Small Problem, and have to spend 6,000SP keeping one Barb up, while the rest of the group takes under 1,500SP for all five put together, there is a problem.

[Symerith]

...


Wow. Did u start ddo yesterday? LOL.

I very often see rog's rip agro from barbs. Granted neither is built right(the barb too weak, rog no hate reduct) and i run epics with mine before I TR'ed, soloing many epics. I Still don't get the 'no endgame player plays rog'

Rog is the 'best' class hands down in ddo, since they can gobble up a splash or 2 of any other class and gain so much, have amazing synergy with almost every other class, are (at least till artificer here) the only ones able to dance inside traps while removing that threat from the other party members, the only ones who can be built as tank, as support, as dps, as whatever the player chooses(no other class has that flexibility)

Yes there are SOME rogs who haven't gotten past lv 10 who are squishy. But anyone who 'knows' the class will surprise you. Open up your world and accept rog's when they join. Sure some will make you sign when they die to a kobolds sneeze, but some will also impress you.

Among the 20-40 best power gamers and epicly geared players on my server, I don't think any of them has a rogue. Why? Because it's so easy to make an evoker or nuker that is able to do sooo much more than a rogue.
Any WF FvS built correctly can tank, offensive cast, heal & melee. And the rogue? Disable traps that can be avoided in 90% of the content.

In my opinion, monks have more syngergy. 2 more feats, better saves vs trapsmithing & SA.
Anyway, as I said, I agree a rogue correctly built can outDPS a barb but SERIOUSLY, that is THEORY, how many rogues with more than 350 HP do you see out there? Take the time to myDDO some of these "ubber" rogues and you'll laugh quite often.

End game content = higher fort = the end of rogue's paradise.


... the only ones who can be built as tank, as support, as dps, as whatever the player chooses(no other class has that flexibility)

I laughed here.
WF FvS are far superior to those rogues. Granted, less DPS meleeing but then you have DP, BB, etc.
A rogue that can tank better than a WF with immunities & 35 DR?


Yes there are SOME rogs who haven't gotten past lv 10 who are squishy. But anyone who 'knows' the class will surprise you. Open up your world and accept rog's when they join. Sure some will make you sign when they die to a kobolds sneeze, but some will also impress you.

Laughed again. You said SOME, the correct version is TOO MANY.


But anyone who 'knows' the class will surprise you. And you'll be surprised by the low number of people who 'know' the class.


Open up your world and accept rog's when they join. Sure some will make you sign when they die to a kobolds sneeze, but some will also impress you. As I said, I always accept anyone, even though it's a rogue, but I'm better of with a barb. At least, I'm not worried about the HP bar dropping to 0 in a few seconds.
And yes, I know a FEW rogues who really are excellent players.

[xSeverinax]

Coyles.


If a rogue is grabbing aggro from a barb in a raid, one of them is doing it wrong.

If the rogue is grabbing aggro from the barb then they are both doing it wrong!


I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

That depends on if the rogue player knows how to build and play a rogue, I know several very good rogues who regularly run epics, a friend of mine used to solo epic Claw of Vulkoor in a matter of minutes - less than 10, but I can't remember exactly. I run epics, and soloed some, on my pure assassin prior to TR'ing. A first life pure assassin will get 17D6 + 12 SA damage, stealing aggro means that sweet damage is lost. Many things will reduce the aggro you get such as rogue subtle backstab enhancement line, Tharnes set, several weapons have the threat reduction property. Add in correct tactics and use of bluff / diplo and you should never see a rogue steal aggro from a barb unless the barb is really badly built. Oh and my rogue had 517 HP before I TR'd, not including rage / madstone / yugo pots and only a +2 con tome.

[ocifferdave]

...
Rog is the 'best' class hands down in ddo ...

Ever see a 6 person party with mostly or all rogues? That would be awesome.

EDIT: 6 rogue party each with casting clickies. FUN--I want that in my life.

[Symerith]

Not allowed to have my own opinion?

The top 6 reasons why I'm always reluctant to accept a rogue in my raids are :

#6 DDO isn't just a paradise land where all mobs have 0% fort.
#5 Most rogues I see around are terribly built, with low HP.
#4 A lot of new players find the ranger and rogue class attracting and start with those, without "knowing" how to play one.
#3 The skills you talked about can be taken by oh so many other classes. That's just a terrible reason. Sad you think so.
#2 90% of the traps in end game content can be avoided and therefore makes the rogue less useful. (I almost said useless).

and #1 Because just like you, Smiter, a lot of rogues are morons who curse the healer or the tank.

[Bodic]

I can say this for fact in the early lvls even GH I will take my rogue into S&B spam intim with subtle backstab off to pull aggro as I can maintain good AC and moderate damage especially with a RadII in hand.

I will let others do the DPS and save the whole party on Healing maintenance.

Its the PLAYER not the CLASS.

I am no good with an AA, but I have many friends that are. I would take their AA over a Horc Barb.

My friends expect me to be either on my evoker FvS or my Rogue. They get confused when thy say Bod get that trap, and I respond uhm not on my rogue.

I can see why people have issues with classes, but its the player, and to some degree gear.

The Kill count means nothing even the piker can dish out the last swing on a mob.

[Horkrux]

I'm probably going to take some heat from this..

Ranger

Lets see what roles they can fulfil

Dps spot : no
heal spot: no
Traps : maybe.


overall rangers are just a mediocre class. They need revamped.

[Backley]

Artificer. They are so bad that I haven't seen anyone roll one yet.

[somenewnoob]

Artificer. They are so bad that I haven't seen anyone roll one yet.

I haven't seen a lfm accepting one either.

[Symerith]

Its the PLAYER not the CLASS.


Agreed, and that's why so many rangers and rogues suck. Because free players start playing with those classes, not knowing how to correctly build one. Let's be realistic, I'm not saying the rogue class in itself sucks, I'm saying most players who play a rogue do not know how to play one.

[der_kluge]

Any cleric with a name like "Blastmaster" or something like that.

Second choice would be folks with uber bizarre, gimpy builds - or sorc/wiz, or cleric/FvS - or something that just screams "I don't know what I'm doing".

But I don't think I've ever rejected anyone, actually.

[xSeverinax]

Ever see a 6 person party with mostly or all rogues? That would be awesome.

Yep, a 10 rogue shroud, 1 healer and a bard who didn't fight but buffed the party. There is a huge thread about it on here somewhere, it happened on the Thelanis server, there are screne shots and a video of it as well.

[Symerith]

Why a healer & a bard? Rogues are so awesome they don't need heals or buffs ! They can do it all !

[fatherpirate]

Rangers have many things going against it IN ddo...they are better in PnP

They are missing a bunch of things

1. Rng combat is gimpt by default because DDO jacks up melee combat numbers of attacks per rnd way past PnP.

2. Rng animal companion is gimpt due to it's very low cr compared to it's masters level

3. Rng are SUPOSTED to be able to disarm traps as a cross class skill and also set traps.

4. Rng are SUPOSTED to be able to track...a unused skill in DDO, most D+D games allow Rng to track enemy on
mini map

Given all that...they are generally the weakest link in the combat classes

[Ganak]

I see many responses of Ranger.

Early in the game's history ranger's were a shunned class and then with the release of the Tempest PrC, for a couple years they were the hottest dps class to have. With the release of other PrC's (Kensei/FB/Etc), it's funny to see it all come full circle.

[ocifferdave]

Yep, a 10 rogue shroud, 1 healer and a bard who didn't fight but buffed the party. There is a huge thread about it on here somewhere, it happened on the Thelanis server, there are screne shots and a video of it as well.

That probably was a beautiful thing to be a part of. *tear* I'll look it up! thx

[Candela90]

I like rogues. Actually im lvl 18 fvs now and never met really squishy rogue. Only one that TOTALLY didnt know how to play one (couldnt disable traps on normal beeing one level heigher tham quest level. ANY trap xD. But that was just extremly weird and rare case i think)
And rangers...theyre fine too. Sometimes just **** me off cause they keep getting agro with arrows and melees have to run after mobs and mostly ranger ran away then.

I dont like barbs. And WARF barb... i accept them when i dont have time to wait for someone else. Im not saying theyre bad. Great dmg and all but i almost always play as healer.
Barbs have high hp and are loosing it pretty fast. When its WARF healing them takes more than half sp usually.
And i never will play this class. It seems so 'grab the biggest weapom, run to all mobs and smash everything'
Not my style.
Still i accept barbs just not WARFs.

[Thrudh]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

Good players accept the first 5 that want to come along.

Strive to be a good player.

[k1ngp1n]

I shall echo: Ranger.

And, unfortunately, they need to up both ranged and melee output from a Ranger to make it effective. The doublestrike/TWF changes really, really owned rangers.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Good players accept the first 5 that want to come along.

Strive to be a good player.

Amen.


I expected 3 classes to get all the heat here, but im only seeing two of them. C'mon nubs, share your pally hate as well.

[grayham]

OP- I'd love to know your intentions when starting this thread.

Innocent question? I hope it's the last time you ask it, as you've invited all the anti bard/rogue/ranger gang to pile in with the punches, and then all the people who love those classes and play DDO just to play those classes will come along and defend them.

There is no bad/worst class. I have seen EVERY class played badly.

[jcTharin]

Still I Accept Barbs Just Not Warfs.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif?1293729577

[CountHenri]

OP- I'd love to know your intentions when starting this thread.

Innocent question? I hope it's the last time you ask it, as you've invited all the anti bard/rogue/ranger gang to pile in with the punches, and then all the people who love those classes and play DDO just to play those classes will come along and defend them.

There is no bad/worst class. I have seen EVERY class played badly.

Interestingly despite the haters hating there has been a far amount of "any badly played character" responses...

Thats where I draw the line myself ~ I wont stop a bizzaro build like 10Sorc/10Fvs or 10Bard/1Wiz/1Sorc joining a run (I like watching a good train wreck every now and again ~ why else would I join PUG TS every TR?) but my squelch list is full of bad players...

I've even put bans on certain Guilds joining my Shroud runs because of their universally poor members that turn my normal 25 minute runs into 45+ minute horrors (its amazing how easily part2 can be repeatedly messed up by one player at times). Oh and yes I do apply a 3 strikes rule and actually try and help the players before I make this decision...

[phillymiket]

I was going to say Art History but knowing who Kandinsky was can get you chicks.

For me, I'd have to go with Lithography.
What a grind.

.

[Aashrym]

I see many responses of Ranger.

Early in the game's history ranger's were a shunned class and then with the release of the Tempest PrC, for a couple years they were the hottest dps class to have. With the release of other PrC's (Kensei/FB/Etc), it's funny to see it all come full circle.

I saw the thread title and had a 2006 flashback. Except it was bard vs ranger back then instead of rogues and rangers. It only took YEARS to earn bard respect. :D

[brzytki]

Why a healer & a bard? Rogues are so awesome they don't need heals or buffs ! They can do it all !

Hm, i sense some sarcastic remark here. Posting from my phone so excuse me for not linking the exact SS for u but i believe it was in that (forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=209854&page=1) thread, if not i'll edit my post tomorrow. All rog shroud, elite, when the cap was 16. Enjoy.

[Alabore]

Most runs can be completed without a "perfect" party. In fact, the randomness itself adds in a lot of potential for hilarity and fun!

So true.
It forces you to improvise, adapt and think outside the box.
It truly makes the game feel like a game, like a thrilling adventure, not a chore you're putting up with.

:)

[Ghoste]

Clerics. They pamper people and turn them into wimps.

[uthanak69]

The last one to apply to the LFM.

This. I don't care what classes they are.

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

I do, and she's not even geared out ALL THE WAY yet.

As far as stealing aggro, a decent end-game rogue has at least 50% threat reduction, while a decent "tank" will have at least 50% threat generation. Therefore, if a rogue pulls aggro from a barbarian, it's probably a fluke (or a LitII proccing like crazy from the rogue).

-Kep

[Lost_Leader]

Going to have to go with the ranger on this one as well.


The rogue hate cracks me up. I am always amused/annoyed by the general perception of rogues. I guess it comes from the fact that it is so easy to make a very bad rogue (same with rangers, really), but a well played rogue is insane on damage in most situations. Sure, rogue would be on the bottom of my list versus undead, but when a ToD or Epic Chrono or whatever is looking for ranger, monks, fighters, pallys, barbs dps but has grayed out rogue, I find it idiotic. After having played every class to cap a few times, I can say without a doubt, that in most situations my rogue will out dps any other class (except a savant in power unload mode).

Using the fact that a rogue doesn't peel agro as an argument that they are not doing as much damage as someone else is just plain not understanding the class. Most rogues, and by most I mean anyone who knows what they are doing when they build their rogue, take hate reduction enhancements, gear and skills. A capped rogue should have to do 40%+ more dmg to peel, and then should be able to drop that using diplo/bluff to continue their high dmg rate with no agro. Many rogues have gear to increase that % to be even higher. And often times, "tank" types will be using agro increasing gear/skills.

As far as survivability, it is true that rogues have fewer HPs than other melees, but improved evasion and agro shedding abilities make it so that this isnt an issue for the well played rogue.

My absolute favorite point in those no rogue lfms, is often they have 1 rogue in them . . . the group leader. At least that group leader is letting everyone know that they have no idea of the potential of their class.

[licho]

Imo rangers, but its not like "Rangers are useless, or if you play ranger u must be noob!!!111" its more like if i have to point one class at the bottom it will rangers, since:
- The PrE are either unfinished, cutoff, or related to suboptimal part of game mechanic.
- They do not bring anything freesh to the table, no insane dps or trapskils, not many very important buffs, no bag of hp.
- The ranger capstone is so sad that its no longer fun. Its even worse than cleric one.

The good point is that you can still pick party of mostly ragners and it will run smoothly, but if devs wonders where to put their love rangers are the shot.

note: im hardly ever picky in actual play, save the situacion i want something for runes or better hlz, or want more arcanes so i can pike and write in the forum.

just my 3 plat.

[Candela90]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif?1293729577

Thats not cause i like casters warfs and all others
I just hate warfs as barbs.
When i play with them usually inm off mana quickly :p

[darkniteyogi]

Based on my personal rejection experiences:

Pure Tempest Ranger (Because you "Need DPS". Bonus rejection points if he's an Elf)

18 Ranger / 2 Fighter

19 Cleric / 1 Fighter (Only "morons" take a fighter splash on a cleric, or so I've been informed by a particularly knowledgeable party leader)

yes its tough to be a 'healer with a fighter splash' :) Not just one particular knowledgeable party leader, quite a lot of them. Though all classes tend to discriminate, i think ive gotten the most from 1) Warforged FVS and 2) Pure clerics.

Back on topic,

I've heard also some Monk hate

[Thrudh]

So true.
It forces you to improvise, adapt and think outside the box.
It truly makes the game feel like a game, like a thrilling adventure, not a chore you're putting up with.

:)

This exactly... Taking the first five makes a quest you've run 30 times run differently.

Taking the same exact "perfect" party into the same quest means it gets run exactly the same as the last 30 times.

[NaturalHazard]

None are usless.
Some are more useful more often.
only the player is a reason I would decline, or a really bad build from an unknown player.

Hate the player not the class.

This^^^

[Gkar]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

The reason good rogues don't steal agro from good barbs is the barb is wearing argo increasing items and the rogue has agro decreasing enhancements and items. And I've seen lots of rogues in Epic. No reason for a rogue to be squishy.

[Cetus]

I think fighters are the weakest class in DDO.

Boost fighters please =D

Thanks.

[NaturalHazard]

No supprise I see a lot of ranger hate.

Keep hating please, maybe the devs will give the rangers some much needed love.

To those of you good ranger players out there, who have soloed, and tanked, what ever keep quiet please, we want the devs to buff rangers not nerf them again. :D


Haters going to hate, good players going to ignore and keep on playing.

[Gkar]

I think fighters are the weakest class in DDO.

Boost fighters, but nerf completionist fighters please =D

Thanks.

Fixed that for you Cetus

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think it is funny that so many people say Rgrs and Rogs...

Cause if I had my way, I'd take full party of them into any quest... :cool:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Clerics. They pamper people and turn them into wimps.

:cool:

[k1ngp1n]

No supprise I see a lot of ranger hate.

Keep hating please, maybe the devs will give the rangers some much needed love.

To those of you good ranger players out there, who have soloed, and tanked, what ever keep quiet please, we want the devs to buff rangers not nerf them again. :D


Haters going to hate, good players going to ignore and keep on playing.

Thats the thing, I run a ranger as my 'main.' Well, its slowly being pushed out by one of my casters, but thats another story.

Rangers are the ugly ducklings. Yeah, mine can HP tank any of the bosses 'cept Lailat and elite Horoth. Yeah, she can solo a lot of content.

She still sucks in comparison to what other classes bring.

/shrug

I'll continue to play her, but the class's potential is a lot lower than it used to be. Was OP before, now its under-powered. Needs a nudge.

Full STR to offhand would do nicely.

[blade_of_will]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

Most useless class has to be artificer. They dont do anything!

For what is actually accepted *last* into groups.. for my groups, its all too often a divine, because while I know I can take care of my own hp, I dont know if the other ppl in my pug can as well and having a divine is insurance against that. More at the intention of the topic? The class I least want in my last party slot is that weird multiclass when I have no idea how well it works in 18-epic content. Otherwise it has a lot more to do with the player and the gear than the class.

Other pug leaders? The class they want in their final slot seems to most often be a barb or fighter, sometimes paladin, rarely monk, ranger, or rogue for "dps". Granted its your pug so if you want 12 AA elf bards in your raid, more power to you, but if you want something specific like "melee dps" you should at least have the courtesy to say so in your lfm.

[Postumus]

Most useless class has to be artificer. They dont do anything!



Not only that, but they won't ever join LFMs! I waited for over an hour last night for my Cannith Crystal group to fill - all we needed was that Arti! But he never showed so we waited an hour for nothing.

[Dark-Star]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

Many end game/epic players play rogues.

Without threat reduction gear, a good rogue would take aggro. Most puggers I meet in Epics play solid enough rogues.

Rangers are currently the weakest, though not weak if build well, followed by paladins.

[Templarion]

Any non-caster class. :D

[Vellrad]

Class is not important.
Any non dwarf is useless ^^

[gavijal]

Well when I made this thread I meant more like if u have last spot in LFM what would be last choice to pick up. For me rangers, rogues and monks dont have any specific role. Maybe its just me but if I want dps ill go with fighter/barb/sorc, for CC - wizzy (maybe sorc), for heals cleric/fvs and for backup bard.

[Arnhelm]

Class is not important.
Any non dwarf is useless ^^
As a fellow dwarf, I raise a glass of ale to ya! :)

[Candela90]

As a fellow dwarf, I raise a glass of ale to ya! :)

Im not dwarfs fan. Their wifes have beards!
Its a mutation ...
Its probably braccoli fault ^^

[Vellrad]

Im not dwarfs fan. Your wifes have beards! Its a mutation xD

Takes of beards of dwarf women are made up by jealous elves, who aren't masculine enough to grow their own, and who got many other flaws. Theese rumors are repeated over and over by elven probaganda machines.
The truth is, dwarven women are mostly securely kept in dwarven cities, because all other races are not worth of seeing dwarven ladies.

PS: nie mów źle o krasnalach, bo wiem gdzie mieszkasz ^^

[Isharah]

Class is not important.
Any non dwarf is useless ^^

Glass of beer for the overweight midget! :D

[Miow]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

I'm going to stop you right there, i have grabbed aggro before and honestly i try my earnest never to grab aggro that is why i can run 50% threat reduction. Also I'm pretty sure most players playing rogues aspire/play to end game and learn to adjust along the way.

[Zharfie]

I always get the first 5 or 11 people that hit the lfm, as long as they're in the level range I specified of course... if they die, I'll just continue on soloing the rest... *yawn*

[krackythehoodedone]

Theirs no weakest class.

Just badly played and equipped Toons

You could argue theirs a most powerful class Atm.

Whats even stranger is most peoples choice of the weakest class today was undoubtedly the most powerful when i joined the game 3 years ago

Sadly this discussion leads to more Bigotry

Honestly their are fantastic toons of all the classes running about in DDO

I always accept the first lot unless we require a specific such as a healer etc.

Apart from the toughest Epics (DQ1/Wiz/Chains and then i am picky)

[Candela90]

Takes of beards of dwarf women are made up by jealous elves, who aren't masculine enough to grow their own, and who got many other flaws. Theese rumors are repeated over and over by elven probaganda machines.
The truth is, dwarven women are mostly securely kept in dwarven cities, because all other races are not worth of seeing dwarven ladies.

PS: nie mów źle o krasnalach, bo wiem gdzie mieszkasz ^^


But i saw this beard with my eyes :p
And elves rock. At least female elves ^^
Dwarfs are just jealous elves are higher than their width ;)

Ps. Nie odpisze na czarno z telefonu.
Ale ja też wiem gdzie mieszkasz xD. A winne są nadal brokuly.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Anything that is not an Artificer.... :(

[Vellrad]

But i saw this beard with my eyes :p
And elves rock. At least female elves ^^
Dwarfs are just jealous elves are higher than their width ;)

Ps. Nie odpisze na czarno z telefonu.
Ale ja też wiem gdzie mieszkasz xD. A winne są nadal brokuly.

1. You saw only fat gnome female with fake beard. Or maybe real beard, IDK, gnomes are not humanoids, but aberrations.
2. Broccoli is good.
3. Elves whine because they're to fragile, halfings whine becasue they're to small, humans whine because they're to high. Dwarves are in sweet spot. And in world where most adventurers are human female, having eyes just at exact height is very important.

[goodspeed]

I just saw the most useless class a couple days ago. I believe it was a wizard that in fact was a melee, that got it in his head that zombie form would make him immortal so he flipped con the bird and had I believe 67 hp at around lv 7 buffed.

I think he came from wow so that might explain a few things. And I gotta give the leader credit he didn't boot em right off the bat. The guy eventually rage quit after the undead beat his ass all around that dungeon.

Lesson learned, unlike popular belief, pale masters are not god mode. Pale masters are not easy street. Pale masters are not some kind of undead battle hardened melee. Pale masters are something that pays off near end game.

I think that's gotta be the 10th or so idiot ive seen trying to make some kind of undead melee only to get pimp slapped and take up a slot a hireling could fill 40 times better. Something must be in the water in khyber. Melting peoples brains.

[Ungood]

The last one to apply to the LFM.

This about sums it up for me. Nothing further to add.:D

[Kmnh]

Ranger. The best ones are behind all other DPS classes. The new/silly ones deal close to 0 damage plinking a raid boss with a bow. The truly terrible ones try to manyshot horoth, have him turn around and kill the 4 or 5 squishier melees that were behind him.

[Candela90]

1. You saw only fat gnome female with fake beard. Or maybe real beard, IDK, gnomes are not humanoids, but aberrations.
2. Broccoli is good.
3. Elves whine because they're to fragile, halfings whine becasue they're to small, humans whine because they're to high. Dwarves are in sweet spot. And in world where most adventurers are human female, having eyes just at exact height is very important.

Okey.
1 maybe but im still sure it was dwarf female ;p
2. I knew dwarfs actually eat it! ;)
3. To all whines u should add: dwarfs whines all other races have muscles and they have fat.^^
As about eyes in good height ... as im woman i wont comment that but i guess for men its good argument xD
And small halflings are great! Still i prefer elves.

[Postumus]

I just saw the most useless class a couple days ago. I believe it was a wizard that in fact was a melee, that got it in his head that zombie form would make him immortal so he flipped con the bird and had I believe 67 hp at around lv 7 buffed.



When you flip off the Con bird, it has a tendency to dump all over you.

[Boredamerican]

I am fairly new to DDO, but I have been playing D&D for a long time. I find it interesting that everybody hates on the ranger. I made one and have him set up as a melee dps, I’m level 6 and have a 24 dex and an 18 str. I use weapon finesse to give me an incredible hit rate with my rapier/short sword and any other light weapon set I have and lets me hit with my bows ( mostly to draw, not kite). Is this not how to build a ranger? I’m looking for advice more than anything, but my toon so far, has been useful in groups and has no problem doing many quest solo.

[Alabore]

Is this not how to build a ranger?


Apparently not.
Higher level quests are a different beast altogether.
Update 5 impacted rangers considerably, toning their dual wielding down making a shallower Ranger splash less desirable.

With higher dex than str, you'll find yourself struggling for raw damage: it's relatively easy to reach high attack rate, so you'll land your blows eventually through strike saturation.
Problem is, if the blows themselves are weak, they'll struggle to leave a dent, especially vs high-DR targets.

A dex rogue can make do with sneak-dmg.
Higher hit ratio compensates lower base dmg vs sneak-vulnerable foes.
A dex ranger can only do so much, and would benefit from dmg enhancing feats/effects.
Power Attack works well.
Using a two-handed weapons vs some foes works too.
My very first char was a dex ranger; I've eventually learnt to carry an adamantine maul to use vs golems and he's been much better off.

The usual advice here is: ranger gets dual wielding feats free - regardless of natural dex.
This means they can make do with only dex 13, to qualify for Dodge and Tempest eventually.
Non rangers need dex 15 to dual wield, and eventually 17 for the full line, and still have a lower off-hand proc - a DDO-specific mechanic - from not being Tempests.

[OsOscarius]

I am fairly new to DDO, but I have been playing D&D for a long time. I find it interesting that everybody hates on the ranger. I made one and have him set up as a melee dps, I’m level 6 and have a 24 dex and an 18 str. I use weapon finesse to give me an incredible hit rate with my rapier/short sword and any other light weapon set I have and lets me hit with my bows ( mostly to draw, not kite). Is this not how to build a ranger? I’m looking for advice more than anything, but my toon so far, has been useful in groups and has no problem doing many quest solo.


With that, what is your con? :p (I jest)

Personally I'd say that rangers might be the "most worthless", or the "worst", but that doesn't mean that they are BAD.
Their problem is that they are generalists. They do good damage, can heal in a pinch and have good spells. They also get many of their main feats for free, setting them up to be both melee and great range attackers.

Thier problem is that everything they do can be done better by other classes, even if the other classes might lack something that the ranger has. Want range power? Arcane Caster. Heals? Divine Caster. Melee monster? Any other sort of melee class.
Also, rangers doesn't really bring anything "new" like bards, the other "generalist class", brings.

A well played ranger can be an asset. But they can only really do one thing at a time, which means that they'll often be outclassed by other dudes.

They do however make good solo characters, due to range kiting (not that great in a party :p), self healing, and an ability to amp up the damage by swaping to 2wf.
Do I personally deny rangers? No, not at all, but I seldom deny anything at all.

[Templarion]

Theirs no weakest class.

If there are three apples in a basket, each picked from a different tree. They all can taste good but I am sure you can say one of them is better than others and one of them is not as good as others.

People can have different taste and we cannot argue much about that. But here in DDO we can start number crunching and define which class is better or worse than the others in the hands of equally skilled players.

[Phemt81]

Its the PLAYER not the CLASS.

No, thank you. I am not accepting you in my group with that 5 fighter 5 cleric 5 wizard 5 rogue build.

But i'm sure you are an amazing player, sure! :D

And, seriously, i tend to avoid monks and rangers.

Monks cause they have abundant steps, renamed zerger's step for my bad experience with people playing them...

Rangers cause i always seem to meet weak build with that class; no dps, low hp, not really useful in a group. Except when they got a rogue splash they are good trapkillers to be honest.

[NaturalHazard]

.

Apart from the toughest Epics (DQ1/Wiz/Chains and then i am picky)

But you would still take a ranger on those wouldnt you?

[stoerm]

Paladins. Not my own opinion, but the (anecdotal) evidence is:

1) It's the class I see least of in game
2) No threads about "OP paladins"
3) No threads demanding to "boost paladins" - nobody even cares
4) Turtle tanking is history

Rangers come in close 2nd.

[krackythehoodedone]

Oh Dear.

I am saddenned by the bigotry and lack of knowledge displayed in some of these replies.

I don't play a Ranger,but theirs no reason for so much mistrust

Their are some fantastic Rangers out their

And some not so fantastic, but that goes for all classes.

As for Monks, well you are entitled to your opinions. The good ones are awesome

To Natural Hazard. In hard Epics i look for experienced well equipped characters/players.

Rangers are as welcome as any other.

Not Class specific at all. Apart from maybe Melee/Caster/Heals.

If i have a good group i deliberately leave a spot for a newer player if i can find one

I am lucky in that i know most on my server. I tend to get the ''usual suspects'' every time

[Talon_Moonshadow]

No, thank you. I am not accepting you in my group with that 5 fighter 5 cleric 5 wizard 5 rogue build.

But i'm sure you are an amazing player, sure! :D

And, seriously, i tend to avoid monks and rangers.

Monks cause they have abundant steps, renamed zerger's step for my bad experience with people playing them...

Rangers cause i always seem to meet weak build with that class; no dps, low hp, not really useful in a group. Except when they got a rogue splash they are good trapkillers to be honest.

:rolleyes:

[gavijal]

Great , I got neg rep for making this thread... some people are just ridiculous ....

[DragonKiller]

Great , I got neg rep for making this thread... some people are just ridiculous ....

Of course you did. Your thread is about trolling, it's very evident by the wording "Most Usless Class in DDO". You didn't ask "Which class do you dislike" or "Which class is most often the worst played" or anything like that... so of course your going to get Neg'd for it. Doesn't take a psychic to see that coming.

And no it wasn't me... I don't waste my time on that stuff (to the point I don't even know if I can).

[Indoran]

unknown rogues are myddoed and usually rejected... because they have half the hp I expect. but there are excellent rogues in my server that I prefer over barbs...

Also wizzies and sorcs are frequently rejected because I don't like their build basically, I have very strong views on what I need for my pugs... AM evokers with 200 hp at cap are not one of the things I need...

I dont specially like rangers... but those are not necesarilly that bad (please get more than 400 hp though)

[gavijal]

Of course you did. Your thread is about trolling, it's very evident by the wording "Most Usless Class in DDO". You didn't ask "Which class do you dislike" or "Which class is most often the worst played" or anything like that... so of course your going to get Neg'd for it. Doesn't take a psychic to see that coming.

And no it wasn't me... I don't waste my time on that stuff (to the point I don't even know if I can).

Trolling? I dont see any trolling in my question, and yet there are 101 replays on this thread atm.... whatever --

[Rubiconn]

Paladins. Not my own opinion, but the (anecdotal) evidence is:

1) It's the class I see least of in game
2) No threads about "OP paladins"
3) No threads demanding to "boost paladins" - nobody even cares
4) Turtle tanking is history

Rangers come in close 2nd.

There are not many of us Palys because so many are built so poorly they dont survive. Pally's are one of the most challenging builds just from the choices and tradeoffs that must be made. Its a lot of button mashing and firing off DM,zeal etc.

Noone will ever claim Paly's are OP so that thread will never exist.

I care and I would love to see some enhancements to Paly's but I dont have complaints other than I would love an extra feat or a few more build pts but Im just waiting to TR again and read all the tomes I have been saving.

This is the misconception that Paly's are only good for AC based tanking, they are not, they have some of the highest burst DPS at end game.

If people dont want to make Paly's that is their choice but I get turned down less than 1% of the time when I hit an LFM.

[goodspeed]

aw buck up, heres some offset rep lol.

For me, I just don't even bother with wizards anymore. Favored souls are getting there to. Odds are most of the time your getting some guy that's playing the wrong class. lol I still remember that favored that claimed she was a necromancer.

[grayham]

I'm sorry you got neg rep'd-not sure you deserve that, but your question was poorly phrased and ill considered. Not quite 'the unmistakeable stench of trolls' but lots of potential for flaming, arguing, class bigotry and generally unproductive discussion.

[Darkrok]

Rogues, Rangers, and Paladins all scare me but not because of the class itself...they're just easy to mess up in big ways.

Warforged FvS give me pause because of the few out there that play the 'I'm DPS' card despite easily being able to raid heal with minimal build concessions. I would take one as a DPS but only if they didn't try to tell me that they're 'only DPS'.

Half Elves I seriously consider turning down on aesthetics alone. They may be happy with the way they look but that doesn't mean the other 11 people want to be looking at them all day.

But basically it's just bad players that are useless. Bad players and people with a poor sense of style. ;)

[gavijal]

If some class is " useless " its not because of bad players, its because of game mechanics. Take a typical party.

1. healer = first choice = cleric, second = fvs , mostly ppl don't even flag third 1 = bard??
So for healer spot you have really 2 choices (3 but rarely )
2. CC = first choice wizzy , second = sorc . 3. = bard
So for CC role there is only 1 class and that's wizzy, 2 and 3 are if u cant get wizzy (only In VON6 u really need fascinate)
3. buffs = 1. bards (songs + buffs ) , 2 = wizzy/sorc and cleric/fvs but they are covered in spots 1 and 2 , 3. rangers

Spot 4.5.6. DPS - 1. barbs-fighters and multyclasses of them . 2. pallys 3.rogues , rangers 4. monks

So many ppl in my experience thinking like this.

[MaximusParthas]

Among the 20-40 best power gamers and epicly geared players on my server, I don't think any of them has a rogue. Why? Because it's so easy to make an evoker or nuker that is able to do sooo much more than a rogue.
Any WF FvS built correctly can tank, offensive cast, heal & melee. And the rogue? Disable traps that can be avoided in 90% of the content.

In my opinion, monks have more syngergy. 2 more feats, better saves vs trapsmithing & SA.
Anyway, as I said, I agree a rogue correctly built can outDPS a barb but SERIOUSLY, that is THEORY, how many rogues with more than 350 HP do you see out there? Take the time to myDDO some of these "ubber" rogues and you'll laugh quite often.

End game content = higher fort = the end of rogue's paradise.



I laughed here.
WF FvS are far superior to those rogues. Granted, less DPS meleeing but then you have DP, BB, etc.
A rogue that can tank better than a WF with immunities & 35 DR?



Laughed again. You said SOME, the correct version is TOO MANY.

And you'll be surprised by the low number of people who 'know' the class.

As I said, I always accept anyone, even though it's a rogue, but I'm better of with a barb. At least, I'm not worried about the HP bar dropping to 0 in a few seconds.
And yes, I know a FEW rogues who really are excellent players.


Myddo krimsonrane (main) or krimsonrayne (alt). I'm THAT end game powerplayer rogue you seem to think is theory.

[Emizand]

the Last One To Apply To The Lfm.

+1

[Asymetric_War]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

Barbs have enhancements and gear to increase aggro gain, rogues have enhancements and gear to reduce aggro gain. If a rogue is gaining aggro from a barb they're both built wrong.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

...

Half Elves I seriously consider turning down on aesthetics alone. They may be happy with the way they look but that doesn't mean the other 11 people want to be looking at them all day.

...

This is the best reason for not wanting someone in your group, that I have seen in this thread! :cool:

[Nodoze]

I say don't hate the class nor the player... Give people a chance and respectful counsel if they need it. If they don't improve (even slowly) or are hateful/mean then at least you tried and set the proper example.

Ironic that all of our melee in our static party are getting a lot of hate in here but I wouldn't change them (I am the cleric healer who also offensive casts). We don't have any fighters nor Barbarians and instead we have:

- TWF Paladin (DPS KoTC type slanted toward HPs & agro) who is kinda like our Barbarian (plays like a high HP sponge "tank") and I really like that he can do huge burst and with some hate gets way ahead on the Agro. I also like that he can heal himself if I get taken out briefly or have someone else in trouble and ask him to LoHs & self heal...
- TWF Rogue/Ranger/Monk (I think 13/6/1) who does our traps/locks and manages his agro well. He is normally our party scount & I like watching him filet the backsides of the MoBs & even better when he does occasionally steal agro because he tumbles the Mob to the other Melee... He does have the lowest HPs of our front line melee (all three now have minos,GFL, and at least +6 con) but between playing smart and his high reflex/Evasion he seems to take minimal damage;
- TWF Ranger/Rogue/Monk (18/1/1 Exploiter) who does DPS and fills in for all of the above roles if/when one of the above are missing from our sessions. He is my favorite melee slot in the group because with his high AC/Evasion mode he can even tank.

Anyway, we have lots of fun and I wouldn't change them for something more "uber"; They are all solid builds with decent stat/skill/enhancements that were stronger before the changes but still do well.

More importantly they are good players and even more importantly they make the game fun...

[SpiritBoy]

Rangers are pretty much the worst class in DDO. Outside of favor.
Low HP, meh DPS when compared to other DPS classes, they get evasion but meh, so what. A really unimpressive class overall.
After that, pallies in every quest that doesn't have an evil outsider in it. Which is pretty much 95% of the epics.
Note - I, for the vast majority of the content and party makeups, won't decline ANYONE from a party. My parties end up with a lot of rangers, pallies, multiple casters and w/e because I simply do not care. The vast majority of the content can be done with **** instead of class.
The only content I will need to MyDDO these classes is elite ToD, and eChrono.
If both of them didn't have evil outsiders in them, I wouldn't accept pallies.

[Maxallu]

The ones with low HPs and zero fort.

[Olath_Senger]

All these responses saying Ranger genuinely confuse me.

Rangers are a jack-of-all-trades class; they can do some of the best melee DPS out there, buff the party, self-heal... I've even seen some Rangers act as the main tank. The only thing they can't do is traps and locks, but giving up the capstone isn't a big deal. In fact, I wouldn't build a Ranger who couldn't be a trapmonkey. Sure, a pure Barbarian will out-DPS a Ranger, a Bard will out-buff, etc., but that's because the classes are built for that; Rangers can serve to replace those classes and can fill multiple rolls easily. Who wouldn't want that in their group?

I guess Rangers have a bit of a bad rep because of all the new players rolling Elf Rangers with 8 Con, 12 Str and max Dex and using nothing but bows thinking they're doing insane damage, but I've seen well-built Rangers out-DPS Fighters and even some Barbs. Look at Exploiters - I'd say a well-played Exploiter would be in the top 3 melee builds for DPS, and definitely the most versatile.

Just my two cents here. But yeah, I'd agree that it's the player that's awful, not the class. I accept anyone in my PUGs, assuming I don't need something specific.

[karnokvolrath]

Archers and Pallies get my vote.

[silvertrit]

artificers, becuase they are only on live.

[SpiritBoy]

All these responses saying Ranger genuinely confuse me.

Rangers are a jack-of-all-trades class; they can do some of the best melee DPS out there, buff the party, self-heal... I've even seen some Rangers act as the main tank. The only thing they can't do is traps and locks, but giving up the capstone isn't a big deal. In fact, I wouldn't build a Ranger who couldn't be a trapmonkey. Sure, a pure Barbarian will out-DPS a Ranger, a Bard will out-buff, etc., but that's because the classes are built for that; Rangers can serve to replace those classes and can fill multiple rolls easily. Who wouldn't want that in their group?

.....

The kind of group that is going to a harder raid (Hard/leet ToD, eChrono) and just doesn't care about buffs Rangers can provide, doesn't care about selfhealing, and can get better DPS from just about every other stinking melee class out there. Same with epics.
If the game had any actual challenge in regular epics, I wouldn't accept them for epics. I'm better of getting another barb/fighter/a bard/rogue/monk(Not top end DPS either, but meh). Or a wizard.
Always take a wizard over any other class.

[MasterOfWorlds]

Rangers are pretty much the worst class in DDO. Outside of favor.
Low HP, meh DPS when compared to other DPS classes, they get evasion but meh, so what. A really unimpressive class overall.
After that, pallies in every quest that doesn't have an evil outsider in it. Which is pretty much 95% of the epics.
Note - I, for the vast majority of the content and party makeups, won't decline ANYONE from a party. My parties end up with a lot of rangers, pallies, multiple casters and w/e because I simply do not care. The vast majority of the content can be done with **** instead of class.
The only content I will need to MyDDO these classes is elite ToD, and eChrono.
If both of them didn't have evil outsiders in them, I wouldn't accept pallies.

You think eChrono is hard? - Shameless Flame (but good-natured, I'm only teasing)

Seriously, though... I've tanked CAD on my Ranger and I've seen plenty of Pallies tank it. I wish I could My DDO players in some way instead of toons. :P

[SpiritBoy]

You think eChrono is hard? - Shameless Flame (but good-natured, I'm only teasing)

Seriously, though... I've tanked CAD on my Ranger and I've seen plenty of Pallies tank it. I wish I could My DDO players in some way instead of toons. :P

Oh, don't get me wrong - unless they're total gimps, pallies are good on evil outsiders. Just not that much without em.
And well, eChrono IS one of the hardest raids in the game. Which is..
Pretty sad. But yea. Let's move on. :D
If I really do MyDDO someone, I usually just check for weapons (not random loot trash), fort, hp and that's about it. Like I said, I almost never decline people from my parties. Game is just that easy.

[Merlocke]

Ranger.
Esp ranged rangers.

[shadowhop]

All these responses saying Ranger genuinely confuse me.

Rangers are a jack-of-all-trades class; they can do some of the best melee DPS out there, buff the party, self-heal... I've even seen some Rangers act as the main tank. The only thing they can't do is traps and locks, but giving up the capstone isn't a big deal. In fact, I wouldn't build a Ranger who couldn't be a trapmonkey. Sure, a pure Barbarian will out-DPS a Ranger, a Bard will out-buff, etc., but that's because the classes are built for that; Rangers can serve to replace those classes and can fill multiple rolls easily. Who wouldn't want that in their group?

I guess Rangers have a bit of a bad rep because of all the new players rolling Elf Rangers with 8 Con, 12 Str and max Dex and using nothing but bows thinking they're doing insane damage, but I've seen well-built Rangers out-DPS Fighters and even some Barbs. Look at Exploiters - I'd say a well-played Exploiter would be in the top 3 melee builds for DPS, and definitely the most versatile.

Just my two cents here. But yeah, I'd agree that it's the player that's awful, not the class. I accept anyone in my PUGs, assuming I don't need something specific.

^ this

I also think that there is a difference between end game content(epic) and levelling between 1 and 19. A ranger will be out dpsed by an barb but doesn't need a babysitter behind his back and who can only disable traps with its head. :)

[kuro_zero]

My, how things have come full circle. When the game first came out, the only thing rangers were good for was barkskin. Then came tempest, and everyone loved rangers.

The change to TWF and tempest (and attack alclarity in general) hit rangers hard. Ranger exploiter builds rank in DPS only against favored enemies now, and even then they may not break into the top 5. This is compounded by the fact that there is a greater variety of enemy types in end game and epics than FE can cover, and so much of ranger dps relies on it.

And then you have new players coming from more conventional MMOs or DnD games believing range is a viable option (as it SHOULD be). It is not, hasn't been since RELEASE and Turbine stubbornly REFUSES to fix this.

I love rangers. Played them since head start. They're simply so far behind the power curve compared to every other class. A well played ranger is better than a poorly played fighter or barbarian. But any other class well played will out perform rangers in the current state of the game.

[MasterOfWorlds]

Oh, don't get me wrong - unless they're total gimps, pallies are good on evil outsiders. Just not that much without em.
And well, eChrono IS one of the hardest raids in the game. Which is..
Pretty sad. But yea. Let's move on. :D
If I really do MyDDO someone, I usually just check for weapons (not random loot trash), fort, hp and that's about it. Like I said, I almost never decline people from my parties. Game is just that easy.

That's fair. I do agree that some classes could use a buff.

[protokon]

It's a tough choice, considering I have seen puggers that have managed to make pretty much every class look useless. That's why I don't discriminate based on class in my runs, just guild tag :P

[Rubiconn]

There is no weak classes only weak players.

[PurdueDave]

No class is useless and all classes can excel.

In the spirit of the question for characters all or almost all one class, I'd say it's probably paladin right now. They desperately need a PrE overhaul.

[UnderwearModel]

I rarely put up an LFM though.

I hate waiting. I hate having to deal with people that decide to go AFK just after they joined the group.

No class is useless, just the players behind the class can render it useless.

[EpiKagEMO]

Gimpy Rangers/paladins/rogues that cant do damage.

[Malky]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

I hope your asbestos armor has no hole :D

More seriously, rogue is a quite difficult class to master, and quite ungrateful when you first hit epics.

But, if you ever see a good rogue in action... it's the only class that has a chance to compete with a necro spec'd wizard in the killcount department (in epics/elite amrath) beside savants.

As for their boss DPS, between the new imp. sunder, the FvS debuff and opportunist, i don't think they're gonna suffer much in that department if the group is smart.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I hope your asbestos armor has no hole :D

More seriously, rogue is a quite difficult class to master, and quite ungrateful when you first hit epics.

But, if you ever see a good rogue in action... it's the only class that has a chance to compete with a necro spec'd wizard in the killcount department (in epics/elite amrath) beside savants.

As for their boss DPS, between the new imp. sunder, the FvS debuff and opportunist, i don't think they're gonna suffer much in that department if the group is smart.

Biggest obsticle I see to a Rogue's kill count is being able to put weapons on target before someone else kills it. Which is further slowed down by the need to not have agro.

If a Rogue can strike fast enough, he can rack up huge kills. But some players are better at drawing first blood than others.

At low lvls, my Rogues lack fast enough Striders to get there before the Barbarians can swing their axes. At high lvls, the Wizards can FoD from long range and wail several targets at once.

But even then, my Rogues usually can pull off the high kills in most parties. (always a source of pride to outkill a Pale Master. :p )

[Alabore]

Biggest obsticle I see to a Rogue's kill count is being able to put weapons on target before someone else kills it. Which is further slowed down by the need to not have agro.


When I pug with that kind of guys - you know who you are, the multi TR'ed Horc monk, the WF Sorc with Abishai set, basically, anybody who could solo contents under level, and still barely break a sweat - I try and provide them with foe debuffs: bluff, sunder, trip, sap, paralysis...

I tend to see my rogue's job as a debuffer melee.
No point in trying to outkill heavy weights, I might be better served with a lower personal kill tally, but making the killing process smoother for everybody.

They see my effects going off, they realise they have an easier time killing, they see my rogue not getting hurt, or surviving crits because he's got 100% fort, and - hopefully - they realise I'm adapting to their style and doing my part of the job, beyond trap duty.

[Doganpc]

Human Artificer's. If you're smart you're saving flawless sibery's so you can swap feats out once you've hit cap with a decent Artificer only to convert it into a pure crafting artificer. I have a feeling 70-90% of the Human Artificers we'll see in game for a while will be poorly built crafting bots leeching on PUG goodwill.

Dogan
cause if you spent those feats on crafting you...

[Malky]

Biggest obsticle I see to a Rogue's kill count is being able to put weapons on target before someone else kills it. Which is further slowed down by the need to not have agro.

I find bluff a very useful skill in those occasions when timed right, plus it has the exact same cooldown sooooo... the other important skill is usally tied to having played an instakiller caster yourself : if you 'know' which target will eat the FoD, you know which target(s) you will be able to assassinate during FoD cooldown :rolleyes:

Wail being a PBAoE is a bit less of a concern, you can easily see what group is gonna be wailed and either be there to finish the mob(s) that saved, or seek another target that will be out of range of the wail if the caster has high enough DC for the content to wail everything.

Rogue is to me by far the most interesting & challenging melee class to play, and rewarding if you do it right. The only downside is the overlook from a lot of people, my rogue is pretty much only played in guild groups as for now...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

When I pug with that kind of guys - you know who you are, the multi TR'ed Horc monk, the WF Sorc with Abishai set, basically, anybody who could solo contents under level, and still barely break a sweat - I try and provide them with foe debuffs: bluff, sunder, trip, sap, paralysis...

I tend to see my rogue's job as a debuffer melee.
No point in trying to outkill heavy weights, I might be better served with a lower personal kill tally, but making the killing process smoother for everybody.

They see my effects going off, they realise they have an easier time killing, they see my rogue not getting hurt, or surviving crits because he's got 100% fort, and - hopefully - they realise I'm adapting to their style and doing my part of the job, beyond trap duty.

Well, my point was that my Rogue can kill just fine. But I am limited to melee range, and further limited by needing to not have agro....which in some cases requires me to make sure I am not seen first (hang back a bit).

But some people kill things soooo fast, that the monster is dead, before I can et wepons on target.

Barbs and Monks run faster than everyone else. Casters can kill at range.
I think the highest movement rate possible is very critical to a Rogue. You need to be able to pounce!

I really take pride in both getting the high kill count, plus never taking damage...especially in groups of Min II swinging TRed 1/2 Orc Barbs and insta-killing arcanes.

[Alabore]

Well, my point was that my Rogue can kill just fine. But I am limited to melee range, and further limited by needing to not have agro....which in some cases requires me to make sure I am not seen first (hang back a bit).


:)

Just comparing notes.
Since they tweaked bluff I've been using it a lot: it allows me to get first strike and even designate targets without waiting for team members to attack them first.

[Battlehawke]

Pikers, even though they are Invulnerable to everything.

[DawnofEntropy]

To be honest I'm ussually hesitent to allow monks, as someone who normally uses back up characters such as bards and trap monkeys. I'm hesistent to let anyone in who can't tank or offer great dps.

[k1ngp1n]

I'm hesistent to let anyone in who can't tank or offer great dps.

Then you are misinformed about the capabilities of many monks.

[Aurora_nyx]

The most useless class would be the one who doesn't click on my lfm and let me get into the quest faster ;)(it is of course tied with the class played by the 15yo boy who won't stop hitting on me)

I've had shroud runs with 5-6 rogues and no barb/fighter/pallys in them, done just fine. Other raids with no casters, and so on.I've even been known to let some more interesting build in a group just because I'm curious and know we can still complete regardless of them. I completely agree with it's the player not the class

[porq]

Most useless class in DDO?
The Gimp class.

[Grimdiegn]

I haven't put up an LFM in 4 years. It's easier to run "shortmaned" or solo. :p

[muffinlad]

Word, they're all BRT, changing my spells, getting buffs, selling/reping, AH, bio, etc. THey expect people to wait and wait for them. Most people are like screw this and finish the game without them.

It's even worse when they keep asking what shape they should shift into, and what shape the party needs, and is it ok if their wolf "sniffs you" to make sure you are ok.

I hate cold noses! Keep that mutt away.

muffinbarks

[zex95966]

with artificers now acting as trap monkies, rogues have fallen way down. Sneak damage is great and all, but you sacrifice hp (rogue base hp is lowest in the game - all things being equal other classes have more hp, that is just a fact.)
plus sneak damage isn't effective against lots of things while base damage of other classes is still effective.

I love rogues but they are a very niche class, you can't have aggro (and this also means you have to be in a party.), the enemy has to be susceptible to sneak damage, you have to be a trapmonkey and skill points alone is not enough to do it, so you need to have money to buy gear, pots, and buffs which in turn means you can't be a new player with no money playing a rogue.

[Uska]

Havent cared for most the barbs I have grouped with lately they dont carry even guild curse pots for VoD although if I am on my caster and they are WF I dont care about that

[Darknark]

Who do I decline? I don't decline by base class, just based on these prestige paths that are available to almost anyone (largely pugs).

Coylebarians - Barbarians who have less raged health than looks humanely possible (ie: the casters have more than he does even when he rages)

Requirements - Dump con. Never boost con or HP. Take no hardy rage enhancements. Take no toughness. Equip items to get negative levels and/or lower con. Take the feat: Skill Focus: Crash test dummy.


Drizzitclone McSquish the Third - Drow who think 6 con + 0 fort = winning in ToD. Generally they suffer from the disease OCS (Orthon Cleave Syndrome) that is fatal to them, but not to the majority of the population (thankfully).
Requirements - 6 con, 0 fort. Skill focus - Death Rattle. All skill points into skill "Blame the healer" and Deathrattle.


Tinfoil Hats - The dudes who refuse to use savant paths because "the -9 caster level on opposing elements is there so that when you cast the spell you essentially waste SP, and thus have to buy majors from Turbine"
Requirments - Skill focus: cryptozoology, Skill focus: Conspiracy Theory, Skill focus: Delusional Tirades, Leadership.


The useless 'dibber' - The guys who think that making a XBarb/Xcleric/Xsorc and throwing up an lfm that says "Epic such and such. X and Y seals are mine" is normal.
Requirements - 8 or less starting intelligence, Skill focus: Haggle and Skill focus: Piking.


The reverse Hp critic - Easily identified by the "Your a caster, why do you have over 200health? You're supposed to just *hjeal/buff* and hide in the back".
Requirements - make a daily bluff check on self successfully. Skill focus: Delusional Tirades.


Soulstone's - People who think that <300hp and 10% fort is enough to tank a raid. ( I was in a VoD pug ages ago with a tank like this. I got to kite Sully around for a rather long time when the tank *dinged* & now with air savant 'wings' gone I doubt I'd do that again)
Requirements - Skill Focus: Piking. Skill focus: Bluff Must make an oath to avoid fortification past 10%. When asked if you have fortification state: I have 'some'.

I'll add more if I can think of and/or meet them ingame :D.

Edit: The Un-undead. - Palemasters who don't use form ever, and complain that thier death aura won't heal them when they are out of form.
Requirements: Wizard 6. Palemaster Pre. Skill Focus: Unobservant. Skill Focus: Illiterate. Character flaw: Fanatical supporter of lawful good ideals (ie: not being a zombie/vampire/lich/wraith).

[Khanyth]

/joking on

Any of the classes that can heal... because whenever I fail a quest/raid, it's always their fault

/joking off

[mournbladereigns]

WF Barb, Barbs, people with toon names I don't like.

Oh, and FvS, thanks to the wing nerf, they're gimp.

[Gnorbert]

Only my Elf pure ranger ever gets declined from groups... and not very often. I try to make sure I log out holding Melee weapons to throw them off, but the black dragon armor just screams AA. :D

[cyadra]

Bards...who needs bonuses to everything anyways?

[-Nismu-]

Bards...who needs bonuses to everything anyways?

was just about to say same. and add that while they make things easier they really aren't needed.. most people these day don't even bother to wait bard to sing and buffs before they zerg away, making bard sneak attackless rogue in combat.

[LordTigerDawn]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

If a rogue with -50% hate takes aggro from a +100% hate barb... the barb needs to reroll.

I take anyone that makes sense to the group, and kick anyone that cannot find the entrance to the quest. There is babysitting, and then there is making me work so I would have to babysit you.

Nothing personal Khyberians....

[Quarterling]

...you can't have aggro

Sure you can, go strength-based and you will still deal competent dps. The sneak attack is just a very, very nice bonus.

(and this also means you have to be in a party.),

Nope. Rogues can solo. If you really want to get sneak attack, there are a number of ways such as UMD'ing sleet storm scrolls, bluffing, improved feinting, et cetera.

the enemy has to be susceptible to sneak damage,

See response #1.

you have to be a trapmonkey and skill points alone is not enough to do it, so you need to have money to buy gear, pots, and buffs which in turn means you can't be a new player with no money playing a rogue.

Buy +5 thieves tools from auction house for 1,000 plat or have a friendly guildy give you some for free. Heck, I even give them away for free in the Harbor because I'm constantly overflowing with tools. Bottom line, if you ask politely, you will probably receive if you can't afford the (relatively cheap) 1,000 plat for 50 tools.

Also, I don't know about your server, but search and disable device items are usually really cheap. Those are pretty much the only two items you need (besides tools of course) to do traps. Buffs you shouldn't need. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4088189&postcount=150) Also, don't buy pots. Buy wands instead as they are much more cost-efficient.

Responses in red.

[Darkrok]

Who do I decline? I don't decline by base class, just based on these prestige paths that are available to almost anyone (largely pugs).

OMG! +over 9000 skull factor!

[Nahual]

Healers.

[Tirisha]

um.... any class that doesn't have a substantial SP bar.... duh:p

[Fr33kSh0w2012]

Based on my personal rejection experiences:

Pure Tempest Ranger (Because you "Need DPS". Bonus rejection points if he's an Elf)

18 Ranger / 2 Fighter

19 Cleric / 1 Fighter (Only "morons" take a fighter splash on a cleric, or so I've been informed by a particularly knowledgeable party leader)

THIS!!!

I am a level 3 Cleric and even I know this LOL :D Clerics already are healer/fighter class characters it's worth your while to put more smithing/sorcery/crafting/Lockpicking/trapping into your cleric and I mean all five too.;) my searching and "ESP" in the game is worth it finding "hidden" areas is awesome

[voodoogroves]

Healers.

Amen

[Angelus_dead]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?
Ignoring the topic of LFM acceptance, it is a pretty interesting question to try figuring out which class is most useless, such as if you're deciding on a new character to create.

It's obviously not Favored Soul, or Cleric.
And it's not Bard. Not Sorcerer either, or Wizard.
It isn't Artificer or Rogue, or Monk... Rangers can occasionally do cool Manyshot things so it's not them.
And it won't be Barbarian or Fighter.

So really, the most useless class is Paladin.


That's not to say they're worthless at all, and for one kind of tanking they're pretty much the best. But overall, if you're making a list and there has to be a last place, Paladin is it. Ranger is also low, as is Rogue. Both of the full-BAB Wisdom-casters need a good deal of developer love to shore up their weaknesses.

[anto_capone]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

Pit fiends.

Somehow, it never seems to work out.

[drobbins]

to die the most, the rogues.. i find rogues the least useful except in those elite quests with traps. they're more situational, but generally, more useless than the others imo. Sometimes i get surprised to see them leading the kill counts though.. So my impression may be wrong.

It is.

[JasonJi72]

All classes and builds not capable of using stealth.

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

Artificers, until they get the spells that turbine took away from going from lama to live.

[ZzpxpzZ]

I usually accept whoever hits my LFM first also, however the class I am most inclined to NOT take if I do not know them is Barbarian - particularly if the group appears to be shaping up to be a BYOH type group where we do not have a healer.

(I ran an elite Chains of Flame today, and decided to turn down a Barbarian applicant because I felt they would not flourish well in our group which, after some futile struggles to find a healer, ended up running with 2 artis, a wiz, a sorc, and a ranged ranger.)

Ironically, Barbarians, while the class I most dislike while generally questing, is also one of the most desired in raids.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

All classes and builds not capable of using stealth.

:cool:

[smatt]

I have the unique ability to make any class/build/race in DDO useless :o

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I usually accept whoever hits my LFM first also, however the class I am most inclined to NOT take if I do not know them is Barbarian - particularly if the group appears to be shaping up to be a BYOH type group where we do not have a healer.

(I ran an elite Chains of Flame today, and decided to turn down a Barbarian applicant because I felt they would not flourish well in our group which, after some futile struggles to find a healer, ended up running with 2 artis, a wiz, a sorc, and a ranged ranger.)

Ironically, Barbarians, while the class I most dislike while generally questing, is also one of the most desired in raids.

While I like the DPS Barbs can do, they are guaranteed to be the guy who joins an LFM and tells the party leader: "now we just need a healer!" :rolleyes:

Ftrs too though. But at least some of them have AC.

They are also the most likely to drop group when things do not go their way.


It's funny how the most mentioned class in this thread is Rgrs, yet I would gladly take a full group of Rgrs into any quest.

[stretchcore]

1.Forum Trolls.
2.Most kiters who can't put out enough dps to make it worth chasing mobs down instead of protecting the casters.
3.People who think zerging means training through the whole dungeon ignoring DA until it goes red.

In fact, there's an easy solution to all three of these, now I think about it.
Ignore them.
1. Gets bored and does something else instead, rest of forums advance at normal speed through topics.
2. Gets left behind/killed kiting the same mob while rest of party advances at normal speed through dungeon.
3. Gets red alerted, dies, alert settles down eventually, rest of party advances at normal speed through dungeon.

[Khanyth]

um.... any class that doesn't have a substantial SP bar.... duh:p

Agreed


HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAL ME!!!!

REZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ME!!!!!

[Qezuzu]

Who do I take in my parties? The first 5/11 to apply, except possibly saving a spot for healer/CCer in harder epics/raids.

Seriously. I don't find a Token run of Partycrashers very fun if it's a "perfect" 1 healer/1 ccer/4 DPS party. A few days ago, I had a full party of DPS only. I, on my rogue, was doing a lot of heal scrolling (when I wasn't assassinating or CCing with Limbchopper/Epic Timeblade), but everyone had a method self healing. No CCing, so a lot of kiting took place. And it was FUN. Why have a perfect party each time? Add some randomness, see just how awesome your class is when you have to utilize different aspects of it.

IMO every class has a purpose, especially when played by a good player. Rangers could use some balancing, though, but even they can rock when played correctly.

Re: Rogue misconceptions.

I have a rogue. Epicly geared out, at 477 HP without buffs I have more HP than many PUG fighters/monks/paladins, etc. 497 ship, 517 rage, 557 madstone, 597 double madstone... etc. 497 unbuffed when I get a Litany. This HP is augmented by Improved Evasion and a high reflex save, making me practically immune to spike damage from spells.

I have stolen aggro from very competent barbarians, who may or may not have had aggro increasing effects, on bosses like Garos, Malicia, etc, and I have -20% threat from an item and -30% from enhancements. But I'm able to reassert my sneak attacks with bluff.

Of course, my rogue is anything but typical, but Rogues are extremely high DPS, even on raid bosses (normal), and also have high UMD. Any rogue can exceed 400 HP, which, with improved evasion, is more than enough for non-tanking.

If you see a 250 HP drow rogue with no fort, you're seeing a bad player, not a bad class.

[Davanyn]

Myddo krimsonrane (main) or krimsonrayne (alt). I'm THAT end game powerplayer rogue you seem to think is theory.


dont i know it! i dont worry about Krim when i am the healer for Epic/high level stuff. it is nice, as i will admit, the Rogues then Rangers tend to be the ones i worry the most about.

they can be good, but they are usually squishy.. (granted there are exceptions)

I LOOK for LFMs with Krim in them, if we fail the quest it isnt because of Krim :)

Krim is a rare breed, he is a great rogue in end content and backs it up with a great personality, never taking anything personally, and having a great sense of humor even if we happen to fail. :) (we usually beat the quest, though)

i will take just about anyone when left to my own devices as party leader. everyone deserves a change or 3 to show what they can do. my own Pally (first toon, PnP doesnt translate well for the pally in DDO) taught me that.

i will take just about anyone as long as certain things are filled in depending on the quest, i am not going to take a second Bard when i have one already; i dont care if i get Wizzy or a Sorc as long as my CC is filled in, etc.. Then again, i dont often lead parties *shrugs*

[Quetzacoala]

Well, it seems rangers and rogues are getting a lot of hate here, which brings me to an interesting dilemma. I have crafted two GS scimitars on my level 20 favored soul in preperation to TR into an elf tempest... but it seems rangers are gimped?

Is there any good elf tempest build you can direct me to?

[stoerm]

Well, it seems rangers and rogues are getting a lot of hate here, which brings me to an interesting dilemma. I have crafted two GS scimitars on my level 20 favored soul in preperation to TR into an elf tempest... but it seems rangers are gimped?

Is there any good elf tempest build you can direct me to?

People have an aversion to con-dumpped dex rangers who refuse to melee. Tempests are ok.

[hecate355]

Druid. They just do NOTHING. Its annoying :mad:.

oh yea, those bastards, they arent even here!

[Furbitor]

Clearly the most useless class is Paladin.


Yes this worthless dolt who levels in Paladin knows only one way to play, soloist.

Even in a raid full of good classes, the paladin is playing his toon like he is all alone.

never buffing others his blue bar can't be bothered.... healing ablility? "I can hit myself with FOUR LOH!!!" yes, yes you idiot.... but why not use just one of those LOH on the incapped cleric, laying over there?.... Oh, he can't heal himself..... Durrrrrrrr stupid healer!!!


For years, the primary line of action for a Paladin was the use of his cha based Diplomacy skill... sending mobs away from his +5 mithral fullplate to attach the robe weilding squishies......

yes yes.. I heard they finally got intimidate.... But IT WASNT THAT WAY FOR A LONG TIME.

Always harping about their smites.... . I hit it !!!! I hit it!!!! See my 240 point smite!!!!!

....sigh

I swear, to chose the paladin class is like to self -induce a lobotomy.

Paladins are wannabe fighter, who dont have crits...
paladins are wannabe healers, who mebbe only heal themselves...
paladins are wannabe WOW players, who dont have enough sense to stop playing Hello Kitty Online: Island Adventure!


Silver flamers....... sigh


Putting a paladin in a party is like putting a hole in the bottom of the boat of a party. You are forever trying to plug the hole and everything is being shoved through it, leaking every resource you got.

[KoboldKiller]

Clearly the most useless class is Paladin.


Yes this worthless dolt who levels in Paladin knows only one way to play, soloist.

Even in a raid full of good classes, the paladin is playing his toon like he is all alone.

never buffing others his blue bar can't be bothered.... healing ablility? "I can hit myself with FOUR LOH!!!" yes, yes you idiot.... but why not use just one of those LOH on the incapped cleric, laying over there?.... Oh, he can't heal himself..... Durrrrrrrr stupid healer!!!


For years, the primary line of action for a Paladin was the use of his cha based Diplomacy skill... sending mobs away from his +5 mithral fullplate to attach the robe weilding squishies......

yes yes.. I heard they finally got intimidate.... But IT WASNT THAT WAY FOR A LONG TIME.

Always harping about their smites.... . I hit it !!!! I hit it!!!! See my 240 point smite!!!!!

....sigh

I swear, to chose the paladin class is like to self -induce a lobotomy.

Paladins are wannabe fighter, who dont have crits...
paladins are wannabe healers, who mebbe only heal themselves...
paladins are wannabe WOW players, who dont have enough sense to stop playing Hello Kitty Online: Island Adventure!


Silver flamers....... sigh


Putting a paladin in a party is like putting a hole in the bottom of the boat of a party. You are forever trying to plug the hole and everything is being shoved through it, leaking every resource you got.


I would have to say many of your complaints are operator complaints not class complaints.

So I respectfully disagree.

[Furbitor]

[QUOTE=KoboldKiller;4095697]I would have to say many of your complaints are operator complaints not class complaints.

So I respectfully disagree.[/QUOTE


Yes.. I see your point. But I say its the operator who choose the Class, not the observer, so the operator and class become one once the hit the create button.

I do point out a great player can probably do good with this worthless class.., but why?

Any other class out there is far superior in almost every way...

[KoboldKiller]

[QUOTE=KoboldKiller;4095697]I would have to say many of your complaints are operator complaints not class complaints.

So I respectfully disagree.[/QUOTE


Yes.. I see your point. But I say its the operator who choose the Class, not the observer, so the operator and class become one once the hit the create button.

I do point out a great player can probably do good with this worthless class.., but why?

Any other class out there is far superior in almost every way...

Because it's a game people play for enjoyment and some like what a Paladin can do and can bring to a party.

A paladin is not as worthless as you seem to believe. They bring several buffs, healing, decent DPS and great saves giving them very good survivability.

There is more than having a billion HP's and swinging a big axe.

[Furbitor]

[QUOTE=Furbitor;4095712]

Because it's a game people play for enjoyment and some like what a Paladin can do and can bring to a party.

A paladin is not as worthless as you seem to believe. They bring several buffs, healing, decent DPS and great saves giving them very good survivability.

There is more than having a billion HP's and swinging a big axe.


Joke of the day!!!! HAHAHAHA Cool!!! I love it!


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Savras]

People have an aversion to con-dumpped dex rangers who refuse to melee. Tempests are ok.



Well, it seems rangers and rogues are getting a lot of hate here, which brings me to an interesting dilemma. I have crafted two GS scimitars on my level 20 favored soul in preperation to TR into an elf tempest... but it seems rangers are gimped?

Im in the same situation as well. I'm planning to TR into a ranger. To make matters worse, its a ranged focused ranger. The reason why people dislike pew pews is because they kite. Whats stopping them from just standing there and spam attack instead, especially with the new PBS?

[WruntJunior]

My main is a ranger (not right now but he will soon be again) so it hurts me to say this....but rangers are the class that I tend to accept last (or not choose if choosing several people that hit for the last spot). There's just too many con-dumping, str-dumping ranged rangers that don't have the slightest clue how to play a ranger.

Pretty close to rangers, though, are rogues....but mainly because most rogues I've grouped with are squishy rogues with 200-250 hp at most at level 20.

But in all honesty, unless it's a hard raid or hard epic, I tend to take the first 4-5 people to hit the lfm (usually have 1 friend in the group with me, so usually 4), no matter what class they are. After all, seeing the bad builds on the less powerful classes (and even the stronger classes) really makes you appreciate it when someone who REALLY knows how to play (and generally how to build) their toon hits your lfm. :D

[Captain_Wizbang]

The Druid! :eek:

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/Decorated%20images/druid.jpg

[Captain_Wizbang]

but rangers are the class that I tend to accept last .
What about your uncle? He plays a ranger! :eek:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There is more than having a billion HP's and swinging a big axe.

Shhhh.... don't tell anyone. :cool:

[wey4lust]

most usles in orter

Stupid > No self healing > ranger > first life figher

[Dolphious]

I'll add another vote for Ranger. I have a TR2 ranger, I love him, and I like the class, but if I had to choose an "overall most underpowered class" it would be ranger. They're a specialist without a clear specialty. Bards buff (including unique songs), rogues get traps and sneak attack for massive damage, but what do rangers "do"? You have to find a reason to have ranger levels in a way that you don't other classes. What are you doing with those skill points? What is your SP pool doing to aid you and your party? Is there anything you do the best?

It's a class that is really easy to gimp, and even at it's best doesn't have a clear role in most raid groups (maybe that's changed with the new raids, but IMO it's still a bit early to say).

[Alabore]

The reason why people dislike pew pews is because they kite.

I can't speak for other users, but I've personally seen a couple too many ranged chars drawing foes in and then hitting back-pedal.
If they kited and then ran in circles, it wouldn't be that bad.
It's the kiting away from the team that creates friction.

...

And it's not just new players: I've seen TRs with little grasp of tactics, beyond piling up gear and boosts.
DDO is an action game; situational awareness is a critical skill too.

[MartinusWyllt]

... What is your SP pool doing to aid you and your party? Is there anything you do the best?...

Well, covering resists and FoM to save divine SP is sort of a function, I guess....yeah, my tempest is probably going to be 14 forever, though my AA seems a little better after U11.

[Therigar]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

Dance class. I mean really, have you seen these characters dance?

Last thing I want is a bunch of cheerleaders egging on drunken pirates and funky robots while a bunch of hairy half-orcs are doing their haka. :D

[WruntJunior]

What about your uncle? He plays a ranger! :eek:

I don't get to play with my uncle much anymore. :(

[fyrst.grok]

Healers - bloody pikers! ;p

[eulogy098]

Well if I were to assume that absolutely all players were equally geared, experienced and skilled, and then had to build an over-all A-Team for the entirety of the games content then I suppose the build that would be least likely to make the cut would be Arcane Archers. Rangers are thin on that line as it is, and arcane archers are just far less desirable then Tempest.

[Doxmaster]

It depends.

On my ranger, I'll bring more rangers before a wizard, cleric, bard, etc since stacking rangers is an easy way to complete basically anything. Many shot->Melee. Rinse & repeat.

On my wizard specifically, I'll probably shy away from melees. 2-6 casters has been the best way to do most quests, from 2009 until now. Rangers and bards are minor exceptions.

On my bard, I'll probably keep clerics and favored souls out; I get the healing+melee limelight and I can pick up a rogue, barb, arcane, etc. A second bard is fine though since 6 bards is an awesome way to rip apart a quest.

[gavijal]

first life figher

Whats wrong with first life fighters If I may ask?

[Roguewiz]

No class is inherently bad. They all have their strong points and their weak points.

What makes a class bad is the misguided designing by the player, which may be result of their misunderstanding of DDO or DnD rules; or just the fact that they aren't the best of players

My Rogue used to be accused of being useless, of course that was a result of all the "bad" players they ran into. They called me useless. A few minutes later, after they died to a trap because they ran ahead of the "useless" Rogue; I popped out a scroll, rezed them, healed them to full, found and disabled the trap, and still continued to top the kill charts.

Shortly thereafter; the guy sent me a tell on his new Rogue asking what my build was.

[Corwinsky]

I always sigh internally when I see a ranger joining the group wondering what will happen.

A bad player playing anything else will probably go unnoticed or we can live with it (well maybe except a bad healer but the quest will be over quickly...) but bad players playing rangers are a pain in the ass.

As others have mentioned they agro mobs before bards/enchanters crowd control them, before rogues can assassinate casters while they are immobile.
Then they kite all around because they're squishy and so all other melees just hit thin air running after the mobs that run after them.
That frustrates everyone else in the group so they can have their fun.

In big boss fights with aoe dmgs they will stay out of group range for the mass cure/heals just to spite the healers.

etc, etc

The ranger class itself is not wrong but a bad player playing a ranger will shine and can really ruin the fun of doing a quest for any other class in the group (except another ranged player).
Why is it so difficult for most of them to stand their group if they take agro, block and wait for other tanks (with more hp, dr?) to get the agro back while trusting the healer to keep them alive.

Badly built rogues are not a problem except if we do a elite quest with traps and they can't disarm.
Otherwise at worst they have no dps, die easily and we carry their stone to the next shrine.
Any quest can be short manned at 5 players (or raid at 11), you just learn to put a particular name on your "not to group with" list except if it's a easy quest/raid so I would actually never reject or even worry about accepting a rogue I don't know.

[Aegnore]

I just want to point out to the OP that rogues are not just there for traps alone... they good ones can even tank echrono and other epic/elite quests...

So i hope you try to party more *** Good Rogues so that your thinking wont be fixed into something like that..

Cheers..=)

[Quetzacoala]

The effectiveness of the class and race of a character is nothing compared to the effectiveness of the player. All classes have the potential to be great if played correctly-the hate arises from the fact that many are not played correctly.

[Yunico]

If I look at the killcount of the Clerics I run with I have to conclude that they are useless -

dont let them into your group!

[Milfeulle]

10 Wizzard/10 Sorcs are the worst followed closely by 10 Cleric/10 Ftr. :D




http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8770/11wiz9sorc.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/11wiz9sorc.jpg/)

like this :rolleyes:?

[Quarterling]

It seems like people seem to think that rangers are the most useless.

Time for me to go put up an LFM and that says "need dps" but uncheck the ranger class. http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Roguewiz]

like this :rolleyes:?

Exactly like that! I mean geez. Who would sit through 4 reincarnates :D

[DnD3]

It seems like people seem to think that rangers are the most useless.

Time for me to go put up an LFM and that says "need dps" but uncheck the ranger class. http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Arent they always? I remeber how much they sucked on CRPG's.

[Vanquishedfo]

It seems like people seem to think that rangers are the most useless.

Time for me to go put up an LFM and that says "need dps" but uncheck the ranger class. http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Id have to agree with this. Rangers are probably the most unloved class when it comes to lfm's. Most dont see them as anything but soft melee or pew pewers. This is sadly because most only play them one way or another and dont learn to adapt as the situation demands. those that do are among the most valued of allies in a tight spot. But most either forsake the bow in favor of twin khopesh or scim and NEVER touch archery, or take up the way of the arcane archer and never again touch so much as a rapier or dagger in disdain.

As alot of groups hate pew pew, and see little use for soft melee , much as with the case of the so called and oft hated battle cleric. once you work with the worst of thier breed its hard to trust in the unknown among them until youve seen thier very best in action and relize it wasnt ever the class but the player using it that was at fault.

[Vanquishedfo]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

so what maybe 5% of the least important aspect of the game and its population? Rogues are probably the MOST played class in DDO. I have in fact never met one person that doesnt have at least 1 main rogue and many splash rogue builds in thier character list. They are probably among the most needed classes to splash for strong solo builds as well.

And I personally have never met a barb who could stand on his own. They always NEED something. And never hit harder then a rogue in most of the game which is the only content that matters in any real meaningful way.

Just yesterday I was on my rogue fighter 13/4 in the vale doing a normal running with the devil. THe barb and the other rogue both used nanny bots while I used a vamp short sword and my high AC.

The rogue had the same low HP as me but no AC the barb had tons of HP but no AC or evasion. THey both nearly died in every fight, depending heavily on the nanny bots who when one or both inevitably died put the two in headless chicken mode and put the stress on me. Thankfully my CC even air els still pull thier weight ok at that level range and I was able to res scroll the worthless nannybots up so my companions would have the guts to move on.

THe problem is never the class, its the build and the player using it. Any dependancy on another breeds true weakness that can never be overcome no matter how strong you may think you are from over specialization.

[Orange-Silk]

And I personally have never met a barb who could stand on his own. They always NEED something. And never hit harder then a rogue in most of the game which is the only content that matters in any real meaningful way.

Just yesterday I was on my rogue fighter 13/4 in the vale doing a normal running with the devil. THe barb and the other rogue both used nanny bots while I used a vamp short sword and my high AC.

The rogue had the same low HP as me but no AC the barb had tons of HP but no AC or evasion. THey both nearly died in every fight, depending heavily on the nanny bots who when one or both inevitably died put the two in headless chicken mode and put the stress on me. Thankfully my CC even air els still pull thier weight ok at that level range and I was able to res scroll the worthless nannybots up so my companions would have the guts to move on.


Self sufficiency on easy content is not really worth the trade-off for uselessness on the hard content. Yes I know, the later raids and epics are like 5% of the games content, but that's the content you have to absolutely optimize for. Almost any decent and well played build can do running with the devils, and if you can't, you can just put an LFM for a caster and let him completely overpower it (Or almost any non-raid for that matter), on the other hand, high AC low DPS fighters (Not saying that's your char, just putting an example) won't be as effective when facing, say, epic bosses, or the LoB, and that's the hard content people's trying to beat.

Rogues desperately need some love, they may be more self-sufficient on many scenarios, but when it comes down to it, casters are plain immortal in that kind of content. And when it comes down to boss beatdowns they have close DPS to that of a barb (until fortification gets in the way, thanks so much U11) much lower DPS than a caster (as long as he has SP) but MUCH less HP than the barb, and that's an important factor on boss beatdowns.

I'm not saying everyone should roll a barb, heck, I hate playing them, but sadly, there's been an increase on the number of rogs just chucking down heal scrolls on the barbs when doing LoB, since high HP tanks, high DPS casters and nannybot divines is where this game is headed (I forgot buffbots arties and bards). Suddenly rogues, rangers and paladins are out of roles, since they don't fit the standard MMO design anyways, they are classes designed for variety.

EDIT: the new DOS pally does fit the high HP tank stereotype, it's the DPS pally that's pretty much dead.

[Malky]

And I personally have never met a barb who could stand on his own. They always NEED something. And never hit harder then a rogue in most of the game which is the only content that matters in any real meaningful way.

Soloing on a barb is a bit tedious, but definately do-able. CSW pots + vampiric cleaver or cannith crafted bodyfeeder f.t. iron falchion of lesser vampirism (to break devil trash dr) until you have enough favor for SF pots... once the big pots are available you can solo some dirty things, like elite sins of attrition. With vampiric cleaver, imp crit slashing and dongeon scaling (solo in normal or hard) you can spam supreme cleave with both frenzies activated pretty much without loosing hp over time, doing this on packs of 3-4 mobs at a time (or more) gives a dps you won't match with any single-target melee build.

That being said as a general rule of thumb : good soloing melee builds perform poorly in the high end, they just don't cut it hp/dps-wise. It's not really class-related, if you build your melee for an easy levelling, don't expect him to shine later on.

[zex95966]

splashing 1 or 2 levels of rogue does not make the entire class valid.

Saying not all rogues are squishy is stupid when you compare them to other classes and their hp's.
It's not playing fair to compare an elven fighter with 6 con and no equipment to a 20 con dwarf rogue with raid gear.

More and more fort enemies are being added to the game making them even less useful.
On top of that they added the artificer which pretty much secures the need for rogues to nill.

[Candela90]

About rogues....
I personally still prefer rogues over artis. Dont play one now, but made a rogue and will play one in a future.

About barbarian and rogue.
True - as a healer ill say it - most of these tgwo are close to death in every fight. They do comparable damage.
So why i prefer rogue?
Cause rogue besides doing what barbarian do can sneak, do traps and have UMD to buff up a party and heal herself/himself.
Barbarians only ability is tanking. And its great, yeah. But i saw rogue tanking in epic (20 lvl rogue). Pretty funy, but he survived.
Thats why i prefer rogues. They can do more things. And dont fight worse than barbs.

Okey, now even if boss have 80% fort. Rogue have also oportunist. But even without it. She.he have 20% for sneak attack. Its still a lot more than fighters/barbs have for litII, right? ^^
So if ure saying sneak attack is useless, throw out your litsII. Its seems they are 10x (or more if rogue have oportunist) useless.




About rangers now....
I dont think people dont like rangers. I personally do, its just it im always afraid this ranger will be this "i never pull out other than bow weapon, i always take agro, pew, pew, HJEAL PLZ" ranger.

[Xionanx]

Thought I'd chime in with a nod towards "It depends on the quest/raid"

But if I had to think of the "One" class that was useless most of the time I'd have to lean towards "Pure" Rogues, as the Rogue class is amazing for multiclassing but silly/wastefull to go pure on.

[Alleyna]

Thought I'd chime in with a nod towards "It depends on the quest/raid"

But if I had to think of the "One" class that was useless most of the time I'd have to lean towards "Pure" Rogues, as the Rogue class is amazing for multiclassing but silly/wastefull to go pure on.

Rogues have long been the kings of DPs, against low/no-fort mobs. With the newer capstone giving extra sneak attack dice and assassin 3, pure rogues are very powerful. The only problems are there are many poorly built/played rogues and the recent increase in raid boss fort on higher difficulties hurts rogues deeply. But as long as the rogue can adapt and use the ways to reduce boss fort that are available, a pure rogue is still a strong asset. Add in the fact that they can UMD (now with wand and scroll mastery) heal scrolls and have improved evasion, they can be very survivable and self-sufficient. They also have the only method of instant death effect with a high DC not subject to spell pen, which is very useful in end game.

[Malky]

[...] as the Rogue class is amazing for multiclassing but silly/wastefull to go pure on.

I bet you've never played with a good rogue, even if they aren't kings of the hill for raw dps they can dish out some serious damage&instakills for sure.

[Orange-Silk]

I bet you've never played with a good rogue, even if they aren't kings of the hill for raw dps they can dish out some serious damage&instakills for sure.

Eh, wizards do it better if you want to take care of trash mobs, on almost any circumstance, and when facing a raid boss, a barb has a competitive DPS, only with a lot higher HP and DR to back that up. Their biggest bonus is versatility, but who needs versatility on a standstill beatdown on the LoB?, you either take this role or that role, and there's people better suited to do either (Arties UMD, fighter/barbarian for dps, etc...) What this game needs is some seriously challenging not-raid-boss content where versatility and emergency thinking may become much more worth it (Epic used to be it, and then water savants happened)

[Malky]

Eh, wizards do it better if you want to take care of trash mobs, on almost any circumstance

I know that some people restrict themselves to 'easy' epics where there are enough shrines to finger/wail pretty much everything, but 'almost any cirumstance' is a tad shortsighted. A rogue won't ever run out of assassinates as long as he's alive. Blue bars, on their side, can deplete.

Not to mention high-SR mobs that can only be instakilled by rogues & monks (void IV, unpredictable but still effective).

[Jiirix]

May we let this thread die already? As stated over and over: It's 99% the player and maybe 1% the class. And class is not build...

[qc_sebyos]

I know there is no useless class, but what class you accept last when you create LFM?

Rangers because 90% of them got terrible dps and are just good at pulling aggro then kiting mobs giving a hard time to melee thus reducing party dps further more. I really hate rangers.

Anyone who's got 2 monk levels and plays like a monk thinking 2 monk levels means dps is insta blacklisted. How frustrating to see a 18 wiz/2 monk play like monk and not cast ****...

[Darknark]

terrible dps and are just good at pulling aggro

Unless the ranger is spamming a maxed out intimidate and wearing max threat gear, it is rather unlikely that he is doing 'terrible dps' and still taking aggro. That is unless everyone else in the party is doing worse than terrible dps.




Anyone who's got 2 monk levels and plays like a monk thinking 2 monk levels means dps

Monk unarmed animation is faster attacks per second, and can makes up for the lower base damage. As long as the monk is wearing some nice handwraps. (Tier 2 Alchemical wraps would be quite nice and not require running epic to get....)

Additionally it allows a very minor 'splash' for evasion, faster attack rate, wisdom bonus to AC, and tier 1 stances (mountain for 5% DR 25% threat and +2 con)

[Malky]

Anyone who's got 2 monk levels and plays like a monk thinking 2 monk levels means dps is insta blacklisted. How frustrating to see a 18 wiz/2 monk play like monk and not cast ****...

Monk 2 / fighter 18 can be a very effective build (with a huge stunning fist DC as well)

[Tacktik]

Monk 2 / fighter 18 can be a very effective build (with a huge stunning fist DC as well)

My main!

[Tequila]

Looking over all these post it brings to mind one thought, isn't Dungeon and Dragons always been based on the strength of the group?

Ever since I started playing the game in the late 70s every class has a function toward the group and the completion of the quest was the goal. Before someone says it I know DDO has differences than PnP, I understand that but still.

How can a group run through a quest littered with traps without a Rogue and doesn't anyone need a Ranger anymore to 'range' the enemy and try to bring in several with out alerting a mob? since Rangers should have the farthest range capability? Aren't fighters and Barbarians there to grab agro and spell casters to AOE and CC? I know these sound like dumb questions but they just come to mind. Lets not forget that Clerics are or were at one time primarily healers ( that's why they're called Clerics ). Does anyone use Rangers and Rogues to sneak ahead and scout out an area before sending in everyone else to see what lay over a hill or around a corner? I'm just curious or am I thinking of an age gone by and a different game? ;)

[qc_sebyos]

Unless the ranger is spamming a maxed out intimidate and wearing max threat gear, it is rather unlikely that he is doing 'terrible dps' and still taking aggro. That is unless everyone else in the party is doing worse than terrible dps.

Monk unarmed animation is faster attacks per second, and can makes up for the lower base damage. As long as the monk is wearing some nice handwraps. (Tier 2 Alchemical wraps would be quite nice and not require running epic to get....)

Additionally it allows a very minor 'splash' for evasion, faster attack rate, wisdom bonus to AC, and tier 1 stances (mountain for 5% DR 25% threat and +2 con)

I said pull aggro not take aggro which means they don't take the aggro off melees when melees hit them, that will never happen. They do pull mobs from across the map way before the melees hit them however, and that like I said means a weak dps is hitting targets while weakening the melee dps so overall. It's a very poorly played and designed class that I don't accept in groups except for well knowed tempests.

1d4 base dmg with 2 monk levels... You often see people with daggers even tough they attack faster ?

[Khayvan]

I'm just curious or am I thinking of an age gone by and a different game? ;)

Unfortunately, I think you are. :(

DDO can be played in the manner you describe, but it's a lot more time consuming. It's not a bad way to go for RP groups or new players still learning the game, but most people (and likely everyone in this thread) knows the quests like the back of their hand. No need for scouts when everyone knows what mobs are waiting around the next corner. No need for a trapper when everyone knows where the traps are and how to avoid them. No need for heavy melees when the arcane can tank just as well as, if not better than, the fighter or barb.

DDO is moving farther and farther away from a team-oriented game, IMO. Very few quests or raids require complicated teamwork by differing roles. Further, the classes are so far out of balance that taking a well-rounded party into a quest is percieved as detrimental to sucess, even if it really isn't. But when casters have the best insta-kills for trash, the best boss DPS and self-heals, there's little gameplay reason to bring along melee classes that are simultaneously less effective at killing and at self-sufficiency.

Since we have to grind so much in this game, people tend to just look for the most efficient path through it. A balanced party is rarely that path. A party of 1-6 casters, playing "solo" in a group and zerging to the end is much faster and more efficient.

[garlor]

I always accept anyone who applies, but I'm always a bit reluctant when a rogue applies. Besides what everyone says about the highest DPS with 0% fort and 100% SA, and all the blablabla, I've never seen a rogue grab aggro from a barb in a raid, and they die pretty fast due to lower HP.

Yes, I know all rogues do not have a low HP but how many end game players & epic oriented players play with a rogue? That should answer your question.

here someone who has never played a rogue but even then feels able to judge the ones that do, rogues have enhancements that reduces their aggro, if you see a rogue steal aggro, then the rogue is doing something wrong ( assuming the rest of the party are doing things correctly )

[umeannothing]

Druid. They just do NOTHING. Its annoying :mad:.


I knew I should read the thread before I said it myself, lol.

[Darknark]

I said pull aggro not take aggro which means they don't take the aggro off melees when melees hit them, that will never happen. They do pull mobs from across the map way before the melees hit them however, and that like I said means a weak dps is hitting targets while weakening the melee dps so overall. It's a very poorly played and designed class that I don't accept in groups except for well knowed tempests.

1d4 base dmg with 2 monk levels... You often see people with daggers even tough they attack faster ?

huh?

Two monk levels is 1d6 base damage. Boosted by: Monk PL and Jitz-tek (or garments of equil.) to a 1d10.

Assuming tier two alchemical air wraps
You get: Stunning fist (and stunning +10 on wraps), Shocking burst on wraps(+ two burst effects on Tod rings, these only apply to unarmed/handwraps), Double strike 6% (again, on wraps), Lit. Strike (on wraps), full (iirc) strength bonus to off hand, Breaking DR, and a faster attack speed.

Apparently this isn't DPS.
Oh, and in mountain stance (tier 1) you get: 5% DR, 2 con (20hp at cap), and 25% threat generation.


Ranged wise, hitting mobs at range means you are doing damage without having to take the time to run to the mob, Manyshot will be quite effective here (as will IPS if you can line them up). Additionally, all rangers (level 11+) have the TWF line and can TWF effectively (once the mobs either get to them, or they get to the mobs, or manyshot is on timer)

Last: Pulling aggro usually refers to the act of taking aggro from the person who currently has aggro.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I said pull aggro not take aggro which means they don't take the aggro off melees when melees hit them, that will never happen. They do pull mobs from across the map way before the melees hit them however, and that like I said means a weak dps is hitting targets while weakening the melee dps so overall. It's a very poorly played and designed class that I don't accept in groups except for well knowed tempests.

1d4 base dmg with 2 monk levels... You often see people with daggers even tough they attack faster ?

I can tell that your hatred of Rgrs stems from a thorough understanding of game mechanics.
:cool:

[fuzzy1guy]

I still have a severe hatred of ranged rangers...

Ranged arti is moving into that list recently too. For most of them their dog is more useful than they are beyond buffing.

These are solo players. In a team dynamic. And it rarely works right.

[Downgreyd]

Why bother to post if you don't answer? "No class is useless" is not an answer. The guy just asked a question, if you don't have one, don't say anything.

My answer would be Rogue as a main class. Because of Artificers and Rogue splashes.

[grayham]

Why bother to post if you don't answer? "No class is useless" is not an answer. The guy just asked a question, if you don't have one, don't say anything.

My answer would be Rogue as a main class. Because of Artificers and Rogue splashes.

Your logic is thoroughly flawed. If I were to post a thread saying "which guild on your server has the lamest players", by your rhetoric only answers naming a guild would count, rather than sensible people trying to defuse tension and make positive contributions. People take both their favourite class seriously, and the growing notion that certain classes aren't worth having in groups. Therefore sensible people are trying to encourage an atmosphere of reflective dialogue and positive discussion.

[Orange-Silk]

I still have a severe hatred of ranged rangers...

Ranged arti is moving into that list recently too. For most of them their dog is more useful than they are beyond buffing.

These are solo players. In a team dynamic. And it rarely works right.

Actually, both in my own experience playing an arcane archer (granted, it was an AA kensai, a bit a of a different animal) and from what I've seen on the not-so-terribly-played archer playerbase, ranged characters are more team players than anything. While on a team, your contribution to the team dps is mediocre with melee weapons and null with ranged weapons, as far as mobs and "normal" encounters are concerned (and off manyshot timer). Your best bet is to go with paralyzers or debuffers when paralyzers are obsolete and help the team that way. You're relying on your team.

Then comes the big encounter, wether it's many mobs piled together on the group or the big bad boss, you push that manyshot button (AND haste boost if you CAN) and suddenly your DPS is a beautiful thing, very versatile and most importantly (specially with the changes to shroud) it has a 100% uptime, very nice to have on a team. I personally played it for a while and HATED it completely, since I love self-sufficiency and when I tried to do stuff solo on my archer, I had to kite and plink slowly, or burn it down with manyshot and wait for the timer to come back up in case of emergency, ranged characters are TOO team-oriented for me.

(There's also the case of the aggro-grabber kiting moron who actually represents a negative number on the teams DPS but that's not because of the class, it's because of the player. I've seen horrible, horrible 150hp lvl 20 wizards, and everyone knows casters are overpowered.)

EDIT: Ranged combat (non-arty though, those guys are sick when played right) really needs a boost though, 20 secs of usefulness hardly compensate the cooldown, even if 20 is usually enough for a lot of things, Velah, the LoB and the other interesting raid bosses take a lot more than 20 seconds of DPS.

[FranOhmsford]

#1. For me the race/class I'd always take last if poss would be WF FS as too many of them don't seem to understand that healing others is in the job description. Of course chances are I take the first 5 to apply anyway and I always ask the FS if he/she's heal specced if they're in early so I know if I'm still gonna be needing a healer.

Two things I've noticed: Get a Cleric early and group fills FAST, don't get a Cleric early...Group takes forever to fill.

Seems 80/20 I'll be looking for clerics/FS/Bard with 2 or 2 spots left and of the 3 I'm gonna be most worried about the FS.

#2. Arcane Archers - The easiest VoN 3 I've ever done was when I got my mate to bring his AA along - So easy I asked him to drag his original AA on another server {he'd stripped her of gear previously to send it over with a transferred toon and had to grab a coupla items first} thru the same quest - only slightly more difficult.

I don't know about AAs in end game content but at the mid levels they're unstoppable.

Oh and he rarely if ever uses twf.

[fuzzy1guy]

Completely agree the ranged thing is a PLAYER problem.

But they still seem to gravitate to rangers for some reason.


chicken/egg thing.

[Candela90]

Hmm... AA Rangers....
Depends on player. If player wait for melees to hit first and take agro they can be awesome dps, cause AA do really fine dmg. BUT if hes taking agro from others hes just ****ing off and making it longer.
Because i get it, they have nice dps, but they wont alone outdps 4 barbarians/other melees, who cant hit mobs, cause ranger took all agro.
If AA Ranger have the ability to play in team, why not. Itll ber then 4 melees + AA dps = great deal.
But if its AA dps OR 4 melees dps... Sorry. Then I prefer 4 melees.

For me theres no useless class but i dont like almost at all barbarians and some rangers.

[FengXian]

But they still seem to gravitate to rangers for some reason.


Meh, some people say that just cuz other people said that before. I've seen more barbs/rogues played by baddies than rangers, honestly (not to talk about clerics O_o) not gonna judge a class by them tho^^

[Candela90]

Meh, some people say that just cuz other people said that before. I've seen more barbs/rogues played by baddies than rangers, honestly (not to talk about clerics O_o) not gonna judge a class by them tho^^

With one i agree... Dont kno why i see so many idiot clerics on lvls 1-10. Maybe they look appealing for very new players. when i say idiot I mean with lower hp than mine rogue, running with mace to every mob with 10-12 str, and no healing at all through all quest, not even carrying raise dead.
I guess i have bad luck to clerics xD

But clerics alone are awesome class to play. They just need player who knows what he/she is doing.

[ghettoGenius]

Everyone who said "rogue" in this thread needs to go roll a rogue immediately.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Rangers or DPS paladins. Take your pick.
Neither class is useless, but both of em are *very* subpar compared to other classes.

(But in the defense of rangers, they're actually quite a bit better at the endgame now, because of lob and MA)

[strath]

In advance allow me to say that I believe player skill will often cover the shortfall . . . but Rogue Acrobat specifically. They lack the amazing DPS that Assasins have, they lack the Ranged Firepower and +Trap skill/Trap Parts that mechanics have.

They are fun for flavor, but I would love to see them get a bit of a buff.

Just a side note on Arcane Archers, played well they can be pretty awesome. While it is true that they don't have the DPS that their Melee counterparts have, they can be a great team player pulling enemies through BladeBarriers and Firewalls without breaking a sweat, and manyshot does give them very high ranged burst damage that comes in handy when the pressure is on.

. . .
Some people talked a little about classes ruined by bad players, I would say barbarian. In the few times I have seen party wipe the most common cause was a barbarian, sprinting ahead Leeroy Jenkins style, then running back for heals dragging half the mobs in the instance behind them.

[Candela90]

Everyone who said "rogue" in this thread needs to go roll a rogue immediately.

1. I totally agree.

2. I think its because rogues are "useless" we see so many e.g. VoDs or other quests in pug saying "need rogue" and waiting 30+ mins. Like on a healer :D
I guesses this people just got ****ed off by waiting and say that rogues are useless now. Go and die on traps! :D
To add.... rogue have the highest occasional dps.

[Aashrym]

1. I totally agree.

2. I think its because rogues are "useless" we see so many e.g. VoDs or other quests in pug saying "need rogue" and waiting 30+ mins. Like on a healer :D
I guesses this people just got ****ed off by waiting and say that rogues are useless now. Go and die on traps! :D
To add.... rogue have the highest occasional dps.

They just spelled 'need rouge' wrong and need to apply some makeup while looking for an available artificer for traps. Or wizzie splash. :P

[Candela90]

They just spelled 'need rouge' wrong and need to apply some makeup while looking for an available artificer for traps. Or wizzie splash. :P

Bleh. Artificers. Saw only 2 builded good enough. all others are nto able to do trap on epic. Giiiimps.

[deahamlet]

Bleh. Artificers. Saw only 2 builded good enough. all others are nto able to do trap on epic. Giiiimps.

I've met two situations so far where the trap wasn't for me. Both in GH. One is the underwater in Crucible which tbh is better done by a monk considering the mobs at the other end. Nothing to disable, just need evasion. 2 rog/18 arti could do it to perfection, monk could do it to perfection too. Rogue, depending on build, may get killed by the mobs on elite. In fact, I've seen them get killed.
The other was an air trap that pushes you into the ceiling. I'm not convinced evasion would help on that one, just carefully stepping (which I'm not always perfect at). The box is on the other side of the trap.

I have Trap Sense which makes traps I DO have to go into a lot less painful. I usually know what kind of trap and if it's elemental can prepare.

I have not reached level 20 yet, but according to my calculations I can easily reach the skill level required for epic traps. Mind you, I also wear gear that boosts skills and stats, have human Versatility for skill boost (temporary).

I have met artificers who couldn't even do elite traps on level. I managed, always, but again... I wear gear to ensure 100% success on traps. I don't think it's the artificer class.. it's the players.
This is the new flavour of the month and many people play them... a lot of them with a very poor comprehension of what they can do.

Or maybe they don't care one bit about the trap skills. In which case they should just warn everyone and save everybody headaches.
Artificers can do many things, but not all of them well (kind of like FvS). Traps, ranged weapon, rune arm, casting, self-heal, scroll usage up the wazoo. Can't do them all.

Don't ask an artificer who hasn't spent a single point in scroll enhancements to scroll heal during a raid. Don't ask an artificer that doesn't have trap gear and boosts to deal with epic traps. Don't ask an artificer that refuses to use their blue bar to cast tactical detonation (trip!) or BB. They might buff you but other than that... xbow only.

I might not agree with every one of these ways of playing artificer, but they are valid in their own right.

Just like one shouldn't assume FvS=healer, one should not automatically assume artificer = epic trapper. I will be, but the next arti might not.

[deahamlet]

Two things I've noticed: Get a Cleric early and group fills FAST, don't get a Cleric early...Group takes forever to fill.

Seems 80/20 I'll be looking for clerics/FS/Bard with 2 or 2 spots left and of the 3 I'm gonna be most worried about the FS.


Within 2 mins of posting that my party needed a healer (I don't need one in Tor really so it almost slipped my mind), I got a healer - we had only the one spot for healer left. When I posted for Reaver, I got one arcane who said she'd bring her healer if we didn't get healers. Didn't need to, we got 3 healers (all of them after we already had about 7 people). I wasn't even asking for healers at that time. Maybe it's my joky attitude in my LFM posts, maybe I'm just lucky.

One of the healers was a FvS, one was a healer/caster cleric and the last was a melee kind of battlecleric. We had zip problems with healing (first fail we had was due to being unlucky and the AOE casters dying in a 500 HP hit zapping disaster - no arcanes, no way to deal with air elementals), my blue bar was ridiculously at near 100% at all times from the DVs... and not even once did I fret whether or not the battlecleric or FvS were going to sufficiently heal.

Of course, this wasn't anything scary like LotB or Shroud.

Point is... a light attitude seems to attract divines a lot more. Nobody looks forward to being grieved and met with a oh so serious attitude.

Ask that FvS what he is, politely say "I'm sorry but we need a main healer" and everyone goes about their way.
It's no big deal.

[deahamlet]

And now to give my opinion... It's a long list of uselessness :P.

To be honest, it's always the player not the class. For every bad monk and barbarian I've met, I've met a great monk and barbarian (and I mean GREAT). That's my disclaimer.

So... monks and barbarian. useless useless useless. *wicked grin*

Monks and barbarians that run ahead pulling tons of mobs which inevitably go attack the arcanes and the divine. A monk I know ****ed off the healer so bad one day, if they weren't already friends, I think healer would have dropped party mid-quest. I admired his composure, I wanted to *****slap the monk. Oh and those same players do not bother to ever look back, always attack only the enemies in CC, ignore Firewall and BladeBarrier completely... and leave the arcane and divine enemies to the last (they attack mostly the melees)... My personal pet peeve is melees dying in the middle of my BB. Cracks me up. Wish I was the cleric so I could choose not to raise them. Or melees fighting next to the firewall instead of inside it. And taking major damage cause they're taking too long to kill the 6 guys around them.

Melees disguising themselves as arcanes... useless useless useless LMAO

Melee players who decide to roll a sorcerer and think they're still a monk. And die about 3 times from dogs tripping them. :P

Oh and melee players that think their DPS is oh so vital that they can't lay off for 1 minute to stop taking insane damage... and recover. And monks who run ahead at 25% health out of range of healer (who is not their personal nannybot anyway! stick with party, man!)... get surrounded by 3 huge guys and not for one second think to maybe run away from those guys and get back for some heals. Ding ding ding ding and more ding.

Monks with **** reflex save who decide to test traps with their biceps (despite the party leader having invited me precisely to deal with traps for divine SP efficiency and extra XP)... and die. On a pure max XP run filled with TRs on their 2nd or 3rd life.

Rogues... oh my lord, rogues... *giggles*

Rogues who go "let me sneak up to the boss and assassinate him". Yes, we are all here to sit and watch you play. Even more awesome when it fails *grin*. Or rogues who are pretty much piking half the time. It's shameful when I have to rescue a rogue. It's even more shameful when the rogue is squishier than my arcane. Pfft.

Oh yeah... last one.
Melees who decide to take on an optional boss without the two ranged toons around cause they are so badass... and manage to get themselves and the cleric killed. They should be ashamed... being rescued by an AA ranger and a puny little wizard. Tsk tsk tsk. Yep, the ranger and my wizard, we killed the boss and backpacked the melees and the cleric through respawning enemies to the shrine.

-----------------
What's the common theme?

Bad players. Bad team players. I play self-reliant toons. I play solo a lot. But when I'm in a group, it's about the group. I defend the squishies. I hit the hardest hitters first to save the poor squishies from death. I am self-reliant so the divine can focus their SP on others. I don't keep track of kills, I don't care who killed my target... if the wizard slaps an FoD on my target, I'm happy, unlike the melee who is ****ed that I killed the three dudes before he got to them.
Point is... it's not the class, it's the player.

If there's only interest in completion and fun... there's no need to begrudge anything. Did the enemies get killed? Did we do this with minimal damage and death? YAY.

With that attitude, the toon can be AA, can be rogue, can be bard, can be... the lowest DPSer on this side of the universe, I'd still take them first and foremost over the greatest DPS dude with a bad selfish attitude.

And that's it out of me.

[gavijal]

244 replays and I got bunch of neg rep for making this thread... fascinating ...

[Absolute-Omniscience]

244 replays and I got bunch of neg rep for making this thread... fascinating ...

While I feel for you. It is still my duty to point you towards the forum rules - one is no longer allowed to say that one has received negative rep for a post. If you have problems with the neg rep, just pm a dev and he/she will fix it if it's undeserved.

[Chai]

Bleh. Artificers. Saw only 2 builded good enough. all others are nto able to do trap on epic. Giiiimps.

Any int build arty should be able to trap in epics. Ive seen quite a few who do.

[Chai]

While I feel for you. It is still my duty to point you towards the forum rules - one is no longer allowed to say that one has received negative rep for a post. If you have problems with the neg rep, just pm a dev and he/she will fix it if it's undeserved.

Theres an entire thread that talks about this, and I have not seen anyone disappear mysteriously, or stop talking about it, which they would likely do if they received a warning. MODs were up in there from time to time replying to questions as well.

Rules lawyers always use this in online disputes btw, because if they cant justify their point logically, they certainly will report every little technicality while interpreting words posted in the way that most looks like its breaking the rules. Pretty soon everything posted in disagreement with what they say is an insult, trolling, or violates some specific rule that was written in 2006 when the first incarnation of the boards was in beta.

Theres the spirit of the rules and theres the letter of the rules. From what Ive seen the spirit is enforced rather than everything written being held as absolute.

Please mods/devs, do away with the rep system. All it is is a griefing button for vets to put newbies into automod status with, while being protected due to "cant talk about" being written into the rules.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Theres an entire thread that talks about this, and I have not seen anyone disappear mysteriously, or stop talking about it, which they would likely do if they received a warning. MODs were up in there from time to time replying to questions as well.

Rules lawyers always use this in online disputes btw, because if they cant justify their point logically, they certainly will report every little technicality while interpreting words posted in the way that most looks like its breaking the rules. Pretty soon everything posted in disagreement with what they say is an insult, trolling, or violates some specific rule that was written in 2006 when the first incarnation of the boards was in beta.

Theres the spirit of the rules and theres the letter of the rules. From what Ive seen the spirit is enforced rather than everything written being held as absolute.

Please mods/devs, do away with the rep system. All it is is a griefing button for vets to put newbies into automod status with, while being protected due to "cant talk about" being written into the rules.

Wait a minute, why are you implying that I'm somehow *in* this discussion. I've made one statement in this thread that no one has replied to, and then this last post.

If you so blindly hate me that you insult me with this out of the blue then I suggest that you ignore me. And if this wasn't directed at me, then I suggest that you do not quote me.

Furthermore, the rep rules were changed *very* recently (about 3 months or so?), and it was then this rule came into effect. So some random exaggerated rant about 2006 and rules leading to the end of the world isn't really relevant.

[FranOhmsford]

Within 2 mins of posting that my party needed a healer (I don't need one in Tor really so it almost slipped my mind), I got a healer - we had only the one spot for healer left. When I posted for Reaver, I got one arcane who said she'd bring her healer if we didn't get healers. Didn't need to, we got 3 healers (all of them after we already had about 7 people). I wasn't even asking for healers at that time. Maybe it's my joky attitude in my LFM posts, maybe I'm just lucky.

One of the healers was a FvS, one was a healer/caster cleric and the last was a melee kind of battlecleric. We had zip problems with healing (first fail we had was due to being unlucky and the AOE casters dying in a 500 HP hit zapping disaster - no arcanes, no way to deal with air elementals), my blue bar was ridiculously at near 100% at all times from the DVs... and not even once did I fret whether or not the battlecleric or FvS were going to sufficiently heal.

Of course, this wasn't anything scary like LotB or Shroud.

Point is... a light attitude seems to attract divines a lot more. Nobody looks forward to being grieved and met with a oh so serious attitude.

Ask that FvS what he is, politely say "I'm sorry but we need a main healer" and everyone goes about their way.
It's no big deal.

There's always one who has to say that they got the perfect group when you say something like I said in my previous post.

I DID NOT say that not getting a cleric first always left you with a long wait - just that that happens a lot.

I DID NOT say that I grief players who join my LFMs in any way.

I DID say that if u get a cleric early chances are you're group will fill much faster.

I DID say that you have to be careful with Fav Souls {Esp WF} as there are a few out there who don't like having to heal.

I've had amazing groups where I've had five players waiting on a Cleric/FS/Bard - I've had terrible groups where the Cleric was the first to click the LFM.

Last night I had an LFM up for Devil Assault elite - Cleric was second to join - Group Filled, Cleric afk - Cleric had to be booted - LFM went back up Fav Soul joined instantly.
Fav Soul died while attempting to cast unqickened mass heal on 1st wave {1st 3 waves before shrine that is} Another party member /deathed and left party, FS having been ressed DCs - I called for a reset and released.

Other 3 decided to stay in - good on em but I wasn't taking chances - Got a tell off one of them later saying that they'd completed with a hire - As party leader I would have preferred they join me in releasing and resetting but No worries and congratz.

I set up another group - Cleric rejoined, got 2 amazing Sorcs, a PM and a Pally. One of the best groups I've ever had.

Both times Cleric joined early - two totally different outcomes.