12 FvS/6 Ftr/2 Monk or 12 FvS/8 Monk???

[Seamonkeysix]

I am getting ready to TR a paladin and I am interested in a "flavor build", if you will.

This is my oldest toon, made at game start. At the time I made him, longswords weren't considered as gimpy as they are now. As a result, I ended up with a pretty diverse assortment of longswords and have a good deal of equipment on this toon.

So, now to the question:

I am considering making a very self-sufficient toon that can contribute to dps, has great healing amp and can solo, tank in a pinch, back up heal, and contribute to the party.

I am working several different ideas, but I keep coming back to Half-Elf, 12 FvS with AoV II as the primary. Divine Punishment DoTs and Archon. I plan on going the FvS longsword line for damage and to hit enhancements. Eventually, I see this toon with Whirling Steel Strike, dual weilding longswords. I plan to take rogue dilly for the Helf.

I am stuck right now, however, on 6 Fighter Kensai I (longswords)/ 2 Monk, or 8 monk to round out the other 8 levels.

With the pally past life and Helf Healing Amp + gear, I see this toon with 175% healing Amp. However, I am looking for advice on where to go on gear and build.

I currently have (obviously some gear built prior to ToD being in game):

Epic Timeblade
Epic Sirocco
MinII Longsword
DT Outfit
Icy Raiment
Tier 3 Air Air Air Boots
Con Opp Necklace
Epic Cloak of Night
Epic Ring of the Buccaneer
Ring of Thelis
Tharnes Goggles
Levik's Bracers

I have ingredients, but have not built (been holding off until I finally decide gear):

Epic Boots of Corrosion
Epic Helm of Frost
Epic Charged Gauntlets

I have some wraps, but nothing too sexy at the moment.

I know there are many folks here that are amazing with builds. I am willing to farm the right gear set-up prior to TR, but I am just trying to plan this thing out as something actually fun and useful.

Plugging this into the build planner, I usually come up with a toon with:

Roughly 550 HP Standing
36 Strength
Roughly 1300 SP
(All depending on enhancements and stat tweaks)

Any ideas? :confused:

[DrNuegebauer]

Be careful!

There'll be a view that you cant contribute enough melee to warrant a melee spot, and can't contribute enough healing to pass as a 'battle-cleric'.

You're better off packing in more levels of FvS - and if so, 18 is kind of the point to aim for (mass heal).

If you went FvS 18| Monk 2 (human) you get 10 feats to play with.
2wf
I2wf
G2wf
Pattack
IC: slsh
Tough
Max
Emp
Quicken
Extend or Emp Heal? or go H-Elf and pass on this feat.

What do you lose out on compared to a 6 kensai splash?
Well, basically only the haste boost - you can cast divine favour, so there's no BaB loss there. At levels 14,18 of FvS you gain back the +2 damage bonus you could've taken from WS: slash - ok, so you miss the kensai weapon +1 hit/damage and you miss the +1 to hit from WF: slash - but the benefits of taking 18 levels of FvS mean that you get a much more well rounded toon.

What do you lose from not taking the 6 levels of monk? Hard to say really, but you GAIN one feat (not needing WSS) - you lose some wind stance double-strike DPS, but gain back the +2 damage from levels 14|18 FvS - and gain the mass heal spell - meaning you get to raid whenever you want!


I don't see the marginal melee DPS benefits from 6fighter or 8monk as being worthwhile in anyway - stick with 18fvs and 2 monk!

For stats it probably writes itself:
S 17 (+levelups)
D 15
C 16
I 8
W 8
Ch 11 (dump to 8 if you want and start with 18str)

[Jahmin]

Clr12 will give you much more than FvS12...

FvS14/13 with Monk6/7 is probably the best for what you want however.

[Seamonkeysix]

Be careful!

*snip*



Thank you for the detailed response! I have a level 20 FvS and RS Cleric. I enjoy both (but have to say IMHO the 20 FvS is a bit better overall).

The main thing I am looking for is an "outside the box" build that needs no babysitting, but that won't be expected to be a primary healer, either. I totally agree with you that the challenge will be to build a reputation with this toon that he can add to the party dynamic, despite the strange look of the build.

I can still take Divine Power with only 12 levels of FvS. In effect, this toon should be able to keep fighter BAB all the time. Some of the benefits to the monk levels are fists of light with the healing amp. Also, the monk stances and finishers for additional DPS. In theory, this toon could:

1. Have full BAB
2. Throw DP DoTs
3. Have Archon for Pew Pew
4. Have fighter haste boost for additional DPS
5. FvS bonuses to Longswords
6. Have enough healing amp to keep up tossing CLW
7. Weild dual crowd control Longswords that also have base damage of 2d8 (better than wraps)
8. Toss Mass CLW with Empowered Healing (not great...but ok for a back up healer in the mix)
9. With Torc and/or Con Opp have regenerating SP while in the scrum.
10. COULD have usable/passable AC with the right set up
11. Have the HP and survivability to be a back up tank
12. Monk finishers for added DPS

Some of the challenges have been figuring out exactly where to put action points, and the question of if 8 monk or 6 ftr/2 monk makes more sense.

I am in a large guild and won't have problems grouping or leveling...but nobody wants to play a toon that ends up being a disappointment. Especially one you have to TR.

[Seamonkeysix]

Clr12 will give you much more than FvS12...

FvS14/13 with Monk6/7 is probably the best for what you want however.

I've looked at going 12 Cleric for RS, but I am worried about the spell point pool a bit and the enhancement loss to longswords. I am open to suggestions, though.

[ormsbygore]

I was thinking of a similar "flavor" build, much like the U9 Tukaw, but with 12-14 FvS instead of Sorc.

#1. 12 FvS for AoV II and maybe extra 2 levels for higher caster level for Divine Punishment
#2. 6 Paladin for Divine Righteousness Clickie(+100% Hate Generation for Melee and Spells), Divine Sacrifice I for added light damage on melee attacks, and either HotD I for +10% Healing Amp, or DoS I for little extra Tankability.
#3. If you don't take the extra 2 FvS levels, 2 Monk for Evasion and Feats

Looks like you've got a good gear setup, only thing I sould look for is an Anathema (http://ddowiki.com/page/Anathema), if you plan on Tanking with Spells for extra Hate.

Human would probably be best bet for a flavor build like this because you get the extra feat and skill points. With that in mind you've got 10 feats to play with.

IMO, these feats would be crutial to a build like this(taken in w/e order):
Toughness
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Improved Critical: Slashing
Shield Mastery
Power Attack
Extend Spell <--(optional, would work great for self-buffed Combat Buffs...like Divine Power)

Left with 2 extra feats to choose, you can knock that down to one and choose Half-Elf as your race if that's your preference.


Anyways, hope some of that helps in your final decision.

~Nim

[Seamonkeysix]

I was thinking of a similar "flavor" build, much like the U9 Tukaw, but with 12-14 FvS instead of Sorc.

#1. 12 FvS for AoV II and maybe extra 2 levels for higher caster level for Divine Punishment
#2. 6 Paladin for Divine Righteousness Clickie(+100% Hate Generation for Melee and Spells), Divine Sacrifice I for added light damage on melee attacks, and either HotD I for +10% Healing Amp, or DoS I for little extra Tankability.
#3. If you don't take the extra 2 FvS levels, 2 Monk for Evasion and Feats

Looks like you've got a good gear setup, only thing I sould look for is an Anathema (http://ddowiki.com/page/Anathema), if you plan on Tanking with Spells for extra Hate.

Human would probably be best bet for a flavor build like this because you get the extra feat and skill points. With that in mind you've got 10 feats to play with.

IMO, these feats would be crutial to a build like this(taken in w/e order):
Toughness
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Improved Critical: Slashing
Shield Mastery
Power Attack
Extend Spell <--(optional, would work great for self-buffed Combat Buffs...like Divine Power)

Left with 2 extra feats to choose, you can knock that down to one and choose Half-Elf as your race if that's your preference.


Anyways, hope some of that helps in your final decision.

~Nim

That Anathema sounds like a decent idea. Spell points and being able to hold agro are the two issues I am struggling with for end-game gear. I also have toyed back and forth with human vs helf. The rogue dilly for the 3d6 SA is a nice little bonus for when you are random DPS, but the extra feat is a nice bonus, too. Either way I plan on taking some, if not all Human Versatility on either race.

[Seamonkeysix]

Although it would make the build look even more gimpy, I am wondering now about 13 FvS, 4 Fighter, 3 Monk. Downside would be that you lose kensai I...

Upside would be that you still get 5 extra feats (3 for fighter, 2 for monk), and still get fighter haste boost II and fists of light....

Then you get more SP, a few more spells and can probably heal a bit more effectively for a party level if it becomes necessary.

Decisions, decisions...

Edit: Had to fix some bad math...

[ormsbygore]

If you're going for Fists for damage you'll probably want these Garments of Equilibrium (http://ddowiki.com/page/Garments_of_Equilibrium) or Jidz-Tet'ka (http://ddowiki.com/page/Jidz-Tet%27ka) while in Earth Stance, for the extra +1 Unarmed Damage Step.

~Nim

[Seamonkeysix]

If you're going for Fists for damage you'll probably want these Garments of Equilibrium (http://ddowiki.com/page/Garments_of_Equilibrium) or Jidz-Tet'ka (http://ddowiki.com/page/Jidz-Tet%27ka) while in Earth Stance, for the extra +1 Unarmed Damage Step.

~Nim

Have the garments. Probably will situationally swap around longswords and wraps, depending on the need for healing curse. Good point, though.

[Seamonkeysix]

Looking at these feats (not in order)

1. Power Attack
2. Toughness
3. IC: Slash
4. TWF
5. ITWF
6. GTWF
7. WF: Slash
8. Whirling Steel Strike
9. Quicken
10. Maximize
11. Empower or Extend
12. Weapon Specialization: Longsword

[ormsbygore]

Have the garments. Probably will situationally swap around longswords and wraps, depending on the need for healing curse. Good point, though.

Healing Curse will work while wielding Longswords as long as you have Whirling Steel Strike. My current Paladin used to be a Solar Phoenix in her past life(12 Paladin/7 Monk/1 Rogue) who specialized in Longswords and Healing Amp.

And your feat list looks good. Personally I think I would choose Extend over Empower if you're looking for more melee fighting then adding the odd DP for extra Hate, making the short-term combat buffs last longer. If you're not taking Kensi I, I don't think you'll need Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, especially if you're using Divine Power to increase your BAB.

[Seamonkeysix]

Healing Curse will work while wielding Longswords as long as you have Whirling Steel Strike. My current Paladin used to be a Solar Phoenix in her past life(12 Paladin/7 Monk/1 Rogue) who specialized in Longswords and Healing Amp.

And your feat list looks good. Personally I think I would choose Extend over Empower if you're looking for more melee fighting then adding the odd DP for extra Hate, making the short-term combat buffs last longer.

Agreed. The more I think about it, the better Extend Spell sounds. I am seriously thinking about that 13 FvS/4 Ftr/3 Monk now. Plugging it into the planner and seeing how it feels at 20.

Gotta take Weapon Focus: Longsword for WSS, unfortunately.

Didn't know that healing curse would work with WSS. Thanks for that, too. +1'd ya. ;)

[savingsoul]

Granted, the feats and enhancements all favor the favored soul when it comes to melee. However, there's are a couple of things that help a cleric over a fvs. One is that for a cleric wisdom provides both the spell capability and the dc for offensive spells, while the favored soul has to split these points between charisma and wisdom. This points to a little controversy in just what we define as a battlecleric; are they doing melee or casting offensive spells or both? Due to the need to spead stat points into not only wis and cha, but str and dex, favored souls that do melee tend to be weak on offensive spell capability. Second, clerics have access to higher level spells at lower levels. The second factor is particularly important when you multiclass. That is, multiclassing seems to favor the cleric rather than the favored soul, but there is such a stigma surrounding battleclerics that few are willing to tap into that advantage. Multiclassing also favors the cleric because one can gain weapon proficiency though the other classes, such as fighter or monk or pally. Thus, one of the main advantages of the fvs, martial weapon proficiency through class feats, seems less advantageous when you multiclass. Just some thoughts on the battlecleric, er, favored soul.

[ormsbygore]

...Gotta take Weapon Focus: Longsword for WSS, unfortunately...

If you take at least one Fighter level before you take Whirling Steel Strike you won't need to take Weapon Focus: Longsword, because it's granted by the Fighter Level.


...Didn't know that healing curse would work with WSS. Thanks for that, too. +1'd ya. ;)

Thank you. :)

+1 for the discussion.

~Nim

[ormsbygore]

...*snip*...

Yeah, there are a lot of bonuses for going either way.

For the BattleCleric, you usually split you stats between Wis, Con and Str. So you've got Melee ability through Str. Enough Hitpoints to withstand melee combat through Con. Enough spell points, and DCs, for melee healing as well as offensive casting.(Half-Orc, Human, and Dwarf are all good choises, depending on your build)

For the BattleSoul, there are two common ways to go, Offensive Casting or Melee SelfHealer. The Offensive Caster will want Wis, Con and Str. The Melee SelfHealer will want Str, Con and Cha.(Half-Orc, Human, Half-Elf, and Warforged are all good choises, depending on your build)

Favored Souls get the same base saves as a Monk(12/12/12 at level 20). One of the more fun builds I've seen was Half-Elf 18 Favored Soul/2 Monk with the Paladin Dilettante, High Cha/Con and Mediocre Str. Evasion and great saves, great healer, mediocre melee ability, but low DCs. You can also build the same thing with high Wis and lower Cha, then use Water Stance for higher DCs.

[EpiKagEMO]

Take Dark monk and spec in shortswords like crazy->drow.
shuriken! whoo!

[CoasterHops]

17 fvs/2mnk/1 fighter, who needs lvl 9 spells lol, as long as you are willing to chug the odd pot. Wings, Heals and a whole lot of goodness.

A better idea would be to ditch the longswords completely, go dwarf, 12fvs,6fight/2mnk fist throwing, crazy high stuns, dominating the world, of course this fits best with a monk past life. If people arent letting you group with them with this build if its geared at end game then either you are doing something wrong or they don't see the mechanics of the build itself. (In which case you should avoid them)

I plan on making this build for 3rd life with past lives monk and rog on one of my toons.

[jandhaer]

If you want to melee as a FvS GO PURE you wont need evasion as you should have plenty of HP as a FvS (and excellent saves) without it (mine had 532 last life with only the basics no GS hp item, before ship +2 con bonus, and self buffs) and the capstone gives you 10/DR which is AWESOME just ask any monk, making your HP stretch even further.

12 FvS is a mistake if you ask me, I might be shrooming but dont FvS get Blade Barrier at 13? Blade barrier means you can solo epics regardless if the wings get clipped or not, cast run, cast run, rinse, repeat :P

Never underestimate the power of the cure light wounds capstone with a little effort into your healing amp this can be just AMAZING free heals FOREVER. Top off between fights, another cure to add into your rotation while babysitting the tank in whatever raid, whats not to love about that :D

[jandhaer]

The Melee SelfHealer will want Str, Con and Cha.(Half-Orc, Human, Half-Elf, and Warforged are all good choises, depending on your build)



sorry but putting more then a couple points into CHA is a bad idea, anything more then a 12 CHA is a waste no matter what kind of FvS, starting with a 12 CHA I ended up with 2743 sp, add a bauble, conc opp (dual in my case), torq etc. and you have WAY more then enough to solo heal most content.

[Doganpc]

sorry but putting more then a couple points into CHA is a bad idea, anything more then a 12 CHA is a waste no matter what kind of FvS, starting with a 12 CHA I ended up with 2743 sp, add a bauble, conc opp (dual in my case), torq etc. and you have WAY more then enough to solo heal most content.I sorta dumped charisma on my FvS/Monk as well. I'm going 14/6 for res & shortswords (he's a drow and yes I unlocked 32pt builds and FvS). He only has 12 for CHA, think it was enough that if I got a +2 tome I could get something out of it. Wisdom is only a 14 as well, the way I see it if the swords aint cutting it and the fist aint hitting it I can still secondary heal & recover the dead. Won't be great but should be fun, I don't like the end game anyway.

Dogan
Too much business not enough play.