Apparently it is my fault...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

if I join a group that ruins my fun.
in some way or another.

It is my fault that I join a group with people who are rude.

leave people behind. or dead. do not wait to open chests till everyone is in, or to finish part one of a series.

who give spoilers to those who dont want them.

who get upset when someone does not know something, or do it like their favorite guildy does.

My fault if I join a group that treats new players badly.

my fault for joining a group that uses exploits or questionable tactics.

my fault for not making sure the group I was joining did not practics common courtesy.

or have any concern for other players...and their fun.



Apparently, protesting against mal-treatment of other players or rudeness in any way is ruining "their" fun.

Apparently rude people have the right to be rude. and it is my fault to not specify in my LFMs....that I do not want rude people. Or my fault to only join LFMs that specify tolerance of other people...and doing a quest for fun.

Common courtesy is not common. And nice people should go take time to find the one other guy on the server who plays nice....

My responsibility to find nice and polite people.
and how dare I suggest that someone else should play nice with others.

How dare I expect other people to not be rude. for other people to have consideration.


Sorry...guess it's my fault

[Missing_Minds]

Sorry...guess it's my fault

Now that we have that out of the way...

*offers a cookie*

[SaneDitto]

:(

Clearly it is my fault when I tell people that abuse builds they don't approve of to put a sock in it. Clearly their rudeness is a god-given privilege and how dare this roleplaying, casual, non-min-max pansy plebe speak up against them. :rolleyes:

That aside...*hug of consolation*

[Kelavam]

The thing is, you could put all of that in an LFM of your own, and these people do not realize they are who you speak of.

There is a lot of arrogance in this game, sadly. But there is still a fair amount of people who do not play within your list.

I wish tons of luck finding them.

[Cyr]

I'm not buying what your selling.

Different people have different ideas of fun. The best way to distingush groups is good descriptors in the LFM. If there are not descriptors in the LFM or they do not match with your idea of fun then you should not automatically assume that everyone should fall in line with how you want to play.

BTW, I always find it amusing when people group together minor gripes like spoilers with someone exploiting. I know that they clearly are so closely linked :rolleyes:

[mournbladereigns]

MMO's would be great if it wasn't for all of the people!

Only sure way to enjoy game is to solo. Luckily you can solo majority of quests in DDO.

When I want to enjoy playing the game, I solo. When I want to grind out some xp, I'll group.

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/9990/haters4.jpg

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Generally, a society has accepted standards of politeness and does not tolerate people who break those standards.

But in DDO (and especially on the forums) it is "normal" to be rude, and if you want to group with people who play nice with others, it is your responsibility to find them yourself.

[Eladiun]

Short answer, yes...

Make your own group and enforce the rules you want.

[dkyle]

leave people behind. or dead. do not wait to open chests till everyone is in, or to finish part one of a series.

Leaving people behind is pretty mean, usually, but context would be important.

As for chests, if someone has done nothing to earn that chest, why should they expect loot? It's a magnanimous kindness to wait, not a rudeness to not wait.


who give spoilers to those who dont want them.

Unless the LFM says "no spoilers", noone should expect this request to be followed. You want to flower-sniff your way through a quest I've done 50 times, do it on your own time.


who get upset when someone does not know something, or do it like their favorite guildy does.

In most cases, those that get upset did nothing to ask for help, or tell anyone they were new to the quest/raid. If the leader assumes too much, that's their fault though.


My fault if I join a group that treats new players badly.

All new players? You're seeing groups that treats new players badly just for being new? I've not seen this. I've seen plenty of new players that were just being stupid (not accepting/following instructions, not willing to learn) being treated badly, and deservedly.


my fault for joining a group that uses exploits or questionable tactics.

This would depend on what you consider an exploit. I suspect you have more liberal notions of what exploits are than most of the community. If you expect behavior outside the norm, then yes, it's your fault if you join a normal group.


Apparently rude people have the right to be rude. and it is my fault to not specify in my LFMs....that I do not want rude people. Or my fault to only join LFMs that specify tolerance of other people...and doing a quest for fun.

A lot of blanket statements there. Hard to address without specifics.

But I will say, for the vast majority of quests in the game, doing a quest as fast and as efficiently as possible is "doing a quest for fun" to me.

[Eladiun]

leave people behind. or dead. do not wait to open chests till everyone is in, or to finish part one of a series.




You know the opposite of this one is also true. You know how many times I have been standing around waiting for someone to stop putzing around and get to the quest. Some people seem to think everyone should wait for them and only their time is important. I love ship buffs because now I have a counter. You get 5 minutes to reach the quest from the time the party fills if the counter on my buffs says that expired we start with who is there and anyone left suffers the consequences of tardiness. Punctuality should be a common courtesy.

[Lobster5]

Generally, a society has accepted standards of politeness and does not tolerate people who break those standards.

But in DDO (and especially on the forums) it is "normal" to be rude, and if you want to group with people who play nice with others, it is your responsibility to find them yourself.

You meant "and" where you said "but" there.

This society has accepted standards of politeness, they are apparently different to yours.

[Dysmetria]

Sorry...guess it's my faultYes, it is your fault. You also likely do not see the hypocrisy of complaining here about their ingame complaints about others and/or you.

You choose to play a game full of people that do one or more of those many things you are complaining about, and on top of that you choose to group with some of them.

Your solutions are simple, either only group with people who will play exactly the way you expect them too, grow a thicker skin, or stop playing MMOs if they are going to upset you to the point where you feel the need to uselessly complain on their forums.

[Krago]

if I join a group that ruins my fun.
in some way or another.

It is my fault that I join a group with people who are rude.

leave people behind. or dead. do not wait to open chests till everyone is in, or to finish part one of a series.

who give spoilers to those who dont want them.

who get upset when someone does not know something, or do it like their favorite guildy does.

My fault if I join a group that treats new players badly.

my fault for joining a group that uses exploits or questionable tactics.

my fault for not making sure the group I was joining did not practics common courtesy.

or have any concern for other players...and their fun.



Apparently, protesting against mal-treatment of other players or rudeness in any way is ruining "their" fun.

Apparently rude people have the right to be rude. and it is my fault to not specify in my LFMs....that I do not want rude people. Or my fault to only join LFMs that specify tolerance of other people...and doing a quest for fun.

Common courtesy is not common. And nice people should go take time to find the one other guy on the server who plays nice....

My responsibility to find nice and polite people.
and how dare I suggest that someone else should play nice with others.

How dare I expect other people to not be rude. for other people to have consideration.


Sorry...guess it's my fault

All of these statements can be taken out of context. Did the LFM say BYOH, IP, Zerg? If the LFM is blank, then its like the box of chocolates and you dont know what you are going to get.

I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment behind your statements, but it only ruins your fun if YOU let it. Add the offenders to your list, shrug off the bad PUG and get back to getting that loot.

And just follow my 3 rules.

[Burtle]

Generally, a society has accepted standards of politeness and does not tolerate people who break those standards.

But in DDO (and especially on the forums) it is "normal" to be rude, and if you want to group with people who play nice with others, it is your responsibility to find them yourself.


What? You didn't know that other peoples "e-Peen's" are what's important anymore... that the size of one's online ego is the matter for the equation, no mater the subject? Shame on you sir/madam...how dare you try to make sense of what is and isn't "kosher" here. :rolleyes:

[krackythehoodedone]

MMM

I reckon your on the wrong Server

Come to Khyber your a natural

No one dares to be rude over here

Far too dangerous

[Postumus]

When I want to enjoy playing the game, I solo. When I want to grind out some xp, I'll group.



I find the opposite to be true. When I want to enjoy the game I group, when I just want to grind or farm I solo. I enjoy the social aspect of this game.


I agree with Talon on this one.


There is a standard of personal conduct that is endorsed by society. People who are of the 'treat others as you would be treated' mentality are polite and/or respectful by nature, and peer pressure coerces those who are anti-social or misanthropic to conform to these standards.


The anonymity of the internets eliminates this peer pressure and and people feel uninhibited to do and say things they would never do and say in person. In a sense, their true colors are revealed - or at least significant aspects of their personality that they cannot manifest in RL.


Fortunately, my experience has been that more people join PUGs to have fun than anything else so the majority of them are fun to be with.

[protokon]

Sorry...guess it's my fault

I put up a wizard king yesterday (my group, I was two-boxing a caster/paladin) and stated in the lfm to please be able to solo a tower. a rogue from an infamous guild hit the lfm, made me scratch my head but I accepted him anyways...

I was in progress in tower 1. made it to the top but dumped more SP than I intended to on the djinn so i ran back down the tower to shrine up, the rogue came up the first tower behind me, got despaired, and died on a few archers i left behind. No big deal, il just grab his stone and take him with me-

then all of a sudden, over voice chat he says, "obviously the sorc can't solo if he has to leave stuff behind him ali-"

before he even finished his sentence, I dismissed him (he had released). He sent me a rather rude tell flaming my guild for being elitist or something along those lines, and I ended up just squelching him.

Some people are so inconsiderate, rude, demanding it gets kind of sickening. Yet for every a-hole I have ran into, i've run into 50 people who were not like that. So I keep pugging and enjoy the good times when I run into polite and friendly gamers.

It sucks when people point fingers at you, nobody likes that - especially when you didn't do anything wrong.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You know the opposite of this one is also true. You know how many times I have been standing around waiting for someone to stop putzing around and get to the quest. Some people seem to think everyone should wait for them and only their time is important. I love ship buffs because now I have a counter. You get 5 minutes to reach the quest from the time the party fills if the counter on my buffs says that expired we start with who is there and anyone left suffers the consequences of tardiness. Punctuality should be a common courtesy.

I agree with you. Nothing I hate more than for the last guy to join to tell me he as to go get ship buffs first. (worse when he asked for a ship invite.)

Punctuality should be common courtesy as well....yes.



There are various speeds that you can do a dungeon and have fun in.
zero is not a speed!

But no one wants to watch you solo a quest either.

And noobs happen.
If you have done the quest a hundred times, are you really missing out on anything if you go back for them?

Yeah...I hate to go back for them too. But it just makes it worse if no one does.

Chests...is a judgment call. You don't want to leave one at the beginning and have to go back to open it. But at least stop to think about it.
And end chests are pretty significant.

Completion is even more significant. (you should probably just drop the LFM past the halfway point in a quest actually)

Anyway, I perfectly understand wanting to get the action going...and keep it going.
waiting is no fun.

But there should be a general community effort to make things fun for everyone if possible. And to help each other in quests.

There is an effort made by the "elite" crowd to mark their LFM preferences. But it sure is depressing that every single LFM has some comment of non-tolerance in them. :(

And it is even worse on the forums.
Where every response is one that tells the new guy to go find another new guy and not bother any power-gamers.


It didn't used to be this way in DDO. This game was different. Had a real community of nice/helpful people.

We waited. We helped. We tolerated noobness.
Yeah...we zerged...and people complained.

But we felt some amount of regret if we realized we ruined someone else's fun.
Now we revel in it.

Now we brag about it. "Noob's stupid remark of the week." has over 1700 replies and 90 pages! Fun stuff huh?! Makin fun of the new guy... bragging about it.

[DoctorWhofan]

Yes it is your fault...stupid archer build!! :p;):D


I actually KNOW Talon, and he would not join a group if it was labeled something he did not want to do. Like me, he enjoys PuGging. He is also a nice guy. So, I can say he is telling the truth. So you guys can throw that out that he is being whiny.

I think he is trying to say there is a TREND to blame others for your shortcomings. Not a new trend, mind you, but a trend.

I do agree saying it here probably is not hitting your target audience. Or hitting them andthey are either offended or missing the point.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

BTW, I wrote this in response to how people treat others...not necessarily me.

I've played long enough to learn to decipher LFMs and avoid many problems. Although the shear number of LFMs I feel I have to avoid depresses me. :(

I also wrote it more about forum comments than actual rudeness in-game. In-game people are a little nicer than on the forums. Or at least someone in the group usually is. (and any group I would see something in, I would be there to do something about it myself)

But I really think that playing nice should be the norm. Not the exception.

As a community we should be promoting actions that make this a fun game for as many people as possible.

And "fun" at other people's expense should not be accepted.

[Eladiun]

It didn't used to be this way in DDO. This game was different. Had a real community of nice/helpful people.

We waited. We helped. We tolerated noobness.
Yeah...we zerged...and people complained.

But we felt some amount of regret if we realized we ruined someone else's fun.
Now we revel in it.

Now we brag about it. "Noob's stupid remark of the week." has over 1700 replies and 90 pages! Fun stuff huh?! Makin fun of the new guy... bragging about it.


No, it always been this way here and in every game. It's the way it is. When I came back to the game a little over a year and a half ago things were hard. Elite Amarath was scary... now it's not. Shroud use to be hard..now it's just a given completion.

I can't help that my builds are better than a newbs. I can't help that I have skills and twink gear they don't. I can't help that I'm on my second or third TR and have raid gear and GS. I can't help that I have run the quest 50+times in some cases. I can help that I'm better, faster, and kill things in half the time you do or take 1/4 the damage you do or that I am self sufficient and don't need to keep a healer on my hip.

I can't help that running at your pace isn't fun for me anymore. That what you call zerging I call moving at a fast and efficient pace.

I don't put up no newb lfms and I'm more than happy to help and give advice but I'm not going to not enjoy myself for the sake of others. I have taken a lot of newbs on their first XYZ raid and explained step by step what we are doing but I'm not going to sit around so someone can take in the scenery.

I have a limited play time and in that window I have goals to accomplish. Newbs can come along for the ride and learn all they can but I'm going to do it my way.

[puget]

if I join a group that ruins my fun.
in some way or another.

It is my fault that I join a group with people who are rude.

leave people behind. or dead. do not wait to open chests till everyone is in, or to finish part one of a series.

who give spoilers to those who dont want them.

who get upset when someone does not know something, or do it like their favorite guildy does.

My fault if I join a group that treats new players badly.

my fault for joining a group that uses exploits or questionable tactics.

my fault for not making sure the group I was joining did not practics common courtesy.

or have any concern for other players...and their fun.



Apparently, protesting against mal-treatment of other players or rudeness in any way is ruining "their" fun.

Apparently rude people have the right to be rude. and it is my fault to not specify in my LFMs....that I do not want rude people. Or my fault to only join LFMs that specify tolerance of other people...and doing a quest for fun.

Common courtesy is not common. And nice people should go take time to find the one other guy on the server who plays nice....

My responsibility to find nice and polite people.
and how dare I suggest that someone else should play nice with others.

How dare I expect other people to not be rude. for other people to have consideration.


Sorry...guess it's my fault

And now you know why some people want to play the game solo. More choose to do it than one might think too.

[puget]

i Agree With You. Nothing I Hate More Than For The Last Guy To Join To Tell Me He As To Go Get Ship Buffs First. (worse When He Asked For A Ship Invite.)

Punctuality Should Be Common Courtesy As Well....yes.



There Are Various Speeds That You Can Do A Dungeon And Have Fun In.
Zero Is Not A Speed!

But No One Wants To Watch You Solo A Quest Either.

And Noobs Happen.
If You Have Done The Quest A Hundred Times, Are You Really Missing Out On Anything If You Go Back For Them?

Yeah...i Hate To Go Back For Them Too. But It Just Makes It Worse If No One Does.

Chests...is A Judgment Call. You Don't Want To Leave One At The Beginning And Have To Go Back To Open It. But At Least Stop To Think About It.
And End Chests Are Pretty Significant.

Completion Is Even More Significant. (you Should Probably Just Drop The Lfm Past The Halfway Point In A Quest Actually)

Anyway, I Perfectly Understand Wanting To Get The Action Going...and Keep It Going.
Waiting Is No Fun.

But There Should Be A General Community Effort To Make Things Fun For Everyone If Possible. And To Help Each Other In Quests.

There Is An Effort Made By The "elite" Crowd To Mark Their Lfm Preferences. But It Sure Is Depressing That Every Single Lfm Has Some Comment Of Non-tolerance In Them. :(

And It Is Even Worse On The Forums.
Where Every Response Is One That Tells The New Guy To Go Find Another New Guy And Not Bother Any Power-gamers.


It Didn't Used To Be This Way In Ddo. This Game Was Different. Had A Real Community Of Nice/helpful People.

We Waited. We Helped. We Tolerated Noobness.
Yeah...we Zerged...and People Complained.

But We Felt Some Amount Of Regret If We Realized We Ruined Someone Else's Fun.
Now We Revel In It.

Now We Brag About It. "noob's Stupid Remark Of The Week." Has Over 1700 Replies And 90 Pages! Fun Stuff Huh?! Makin Fun Of The New Guy... Bragging About It.


+1.

[RumbIe]

You know the opposite of this one is also true. You know how many times I have been standing around waiting for someone to stop putzing around and get to the quest. Some people seem to think everyone should wait for them and only their time is important. I love ship buffs because now I have a counter. You get 5 minutes to reach the quest from the time the party fills if the counter on my buffs says that expired we start with who is there and anyone left suffers the consequences of tardiness. Punctuality should be a common courtesy.

Amen. Well said. I was going to add to it, but decided not to. The last sentence says it all.

I think though that the OP should give some examples rather than blanket statements. Considering the number of objections I am guessing that perhaps they may be the kind of person that expects everyone to conform to them. However in fairness to them, they may have really just run into so bad people so I'll reserve judgment.

An example could be, when they opened a chest before you were in, did the LFM say "IP"? Did maybe you join this same LFM then go sell stuff, use actions points, level, ship buff, etc? In other words did you cause delay between when you accepted and when you got in that could have otherwise been avoided? I mean even if you accepted and 5 seconds later you saw loot being looted it is your fault. You joined a group that specified IP (In progress). Usually if I join a group that is IP I ask where they are in the quest if I am familiar with it or sometimes ask if I have time/need to buff before coming in. Now if they accepted you and you came right away and they finished the quest before you entered without any warning or delay on your part then I would say they are in the wrong and could have spoken up sooner.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes it is your fault...stupid archer build!! :p;):D


I actually KNOW Talon, and he would not join a group if it was labeled something he did not want to do. Like me, he enjoys PuGging. He is also a nice guy. So, I can say he is telling the truth. So you guys can throw that out that he is being whiny.

I think he is trying to say there is a TREND to blame others for your shortcomings. Not a new trend, mind you, but a trend.

I do agree saying it here probably is not hitting your target audience. Or hitting them andthey are either offended or missing the point.

:)
I really need to catch up to you in-game again soon.

Actually...there is a ton of people on the forums who I really need to hook up with.
And convienantly, most are actually on Thelanis!

Just seems we all play at different times.. :(

This game is so much fun when people treat each other with respect, and courtesy.

When they don't get upset about things when they don't go like clockwork. (actually, I would argue the game is most fun when it doesn't go smoothly)

We are suppose to be playing heroes! Who do good deeds and help people.

It is suppose to be fun! Not some hell to be endured for as little time as possible.

A lot of the rudeness comes from the rush to get it over with as fast as possible.
Noobs make things take longer. Waiting for them...helping them...explaining things to them...putting up with them all takes time.

I want action too! I can't stand to stand still and do nothing.
But I do make some effort to find ways to be active and not ruin someone else's fun.
At least to a degree.

[cheever77]

We waited. We helped. We tolerated noobness.
Yeah...we zerged...and people complained.

But we felt some amount of regret if we realized we ruined someone else's fun.
Now we revel in it.

Now we brag about it. "Noob's stupid remark of the week." has over 1700 replies and 90 pages! Fun stuff huh?! Makin fun of the new guy... bragging about it.

I don't agree it was "always" like this. I copped a fair bit when I first started for not knowing on my cleric what DV's were and not knowing my way through STK the first time i ran it. After having said that it was my first time. Oh and note the join date not a recent join either.

As for the "Noob's stupid remark of the week" I do find this funny. Why??

Well it is an interesting walk down memory lane for me. I can say 90% of the remarks made I have at some point thought and wondered myself.

Heck I am no "elitist", however I do want quests to be run quickly. You want to run off and zerg ahead thats fine but when you die don't B$%#h and moan about it....... You just cost me 10%xp. I unlike some in this game have limited game time. So when I can get an hour or two in game I want them to be profitable and enjoyable. Which for me means sub 25min runs in shroud.

Speed run shroud no shrines hey count me in. You need a healer sure I will come, that's fun to me. Not an hour long nambi pambi walk through shroud that feels like you driving bamboo under my finger nails......

Am I rude to people, no, I don't think so. If I join someones LFM it IS MY FAULT that I don't get the run I want. That I may get rude people. Join a guild run I know what I am going to get and I know I will get RUDE people ;P , however I like that kind of rude....

[Eladiun]

I want them to be profitable and enjoyable. Which for me means sub 25min runs in shroud.

Speed run shroud no shrines hey count me in. You need a healer sure I will come, that's fun to me. Not an hour long nambi pambi walk through shroud that feels like you driving bamboo under my finger nails......


I guildie of mine got stuck in a 1:30 minute Shroud on Normal the other day. :ooooooooo

[Bunker]

I hear they are selling backbones in the Store. Suggest you grab one before they are sold out. :D

[joneb1999]

Talon its the nature of the whole internet. People show their real colours when there is no real chance of it coming back on them. Many become ignorant, callous, nasty, greedy, selfish and so on. The true decent people on the internet are actually those who don't turn like that when the temptation and opportunity is there.

That's because in reality they are real decent people and not all these nasty sorts, the cowards who in the real world would not say a lot of what they do on the net because repercussions can be immediate and very damaging.

Its a bit like when someone is with a gang and feels boosted as to threaten someone who is on their own but when they are on their own they are quiet and reserved. Its pathetic, saddening and all so real.

[Schmoe]

Welcome to the Internet! Leave your manners at the door.

[Eladiun]

Welcome to the Internet! Leave your manners at the door.


I lock mine in a little velvet lined box then place it in a safe guarded by hungry alligators just to be safe.

[Seikojin]

Darn, I was gonna say join Sarlona. :)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon its the nature of the whole internet. People show their real colours when there is no real chance of it coming back on them. Many become ignorant, callous, nasty, greedy, selfish and so on. The true decent people on the internet are actually those who don't turn like that when the temptation and opportunity is there.

That's because in reality they are real decent people and not all these nasty sorts, the cowards who in the real world would not say a lot of what they do on the net because repercussions can be immediate and very damaging.

Its a bit like when someone is with a gang and feels boosted as to threaten someone who is on their own but when they are on their own they are quiet and reserved. Its pathetic, saddening and all so real.


I just put that right for you.

Oh, I realise that. Just bothers me how much we now accept it, rather than stand up for being polite.

We've always had "jerks" in DDO. But we used to be a lot less tolerant of them.
And now we seem to see nothing wrong with it at all. Including many older vets going over to the "dark side" and defending their actions.

I log onto my lvl 20s every day. And every single LFM says "know it" "have a clue" "don't die" or some other comment that tells me they are not tolerant of others.

I spend hours on the forums (at work :p ) and read about a new guy who got treated bad....and all the vets give him advice to go solo, or put his own group together and specify his style of play.... when IMO, his style of play and common curtesy should be expected in any group he joins.

[grayham]

It is my fault that I join a group with people who are rude.
My responsibility to find nice and polite people.
and how dare I suggest that someone else should play nice with others.
How dare I expect other people to not be rude. for other people to have consideration.
Sorry...guess it's my fault

So you should be! My huge ingame achievements more than make up for the absence of any such in real life. The computer is a beautiful barrier that allows me to exercise appalling manners that I have no opportunity to use in real life due to my lack of social and family life. I can solo all the raids/epics on elite, and that's no mean feat man, I am truly awesome. I don't have any time for anyone who isn't awesome, because if I spent long enough thinking about it I might realise that my in-game behaviour is utterly unacceptable and it would cause a period of deep self reflection ending in a course of medicine and uncontrollable shaking.

So you'd better be sorry.

/sarcasm off

[Schmoe]

Oh, I realise that. Just bothers me how much we now accept it, rather than stand up for being polite.

We've always had "jerks" in DDO. But we used to be a lot less tolerant of them.
And now we seem to see nothing wrong with it at all. Including many older vets going over to the "dark side" and defending their actions.

I log onto my lvl 20s every day. And every single LFM says "know it" "have a clue" "don't die" or some other comment that tells me they are not tolerant of others.

I spend hours on the forums (at work :p ) and read about a new guy who got treated bad....and all the vets give him advice to go solo, or put his own group together and specify his style of play.... when IMO, his style of play and common curtesy should be expected in any group he joins.

I don't accept it, and I don't even think it's the majority that accept it. I'm in an entire guild of people who don't accept it. That said, I don't think I can change people by arguing with them, lecturing them, or complaining about them. The only thing I can do is lead by example, so that people looking for common courtesy have a friendly voice in party chat that they can enjoy the game with for the next 30 minutes or so.

[Vint]

OP, I am sure you are a great player, and have nothing negative to say about you.

My biggest problem is, and I have said it many times, is why people click an LFM that does not meet what they want. If I see an LFM that says "adult content" what should I assume? I have made a lot of great like minded friends that I have fun running with. They are what makes this game fun to me. And I dont want to hear that **** about teaching people the ropes. When I started, it took me forever to figure how to run "The Low Road" (old quest). I am also not on the Turbine payroll.

If the question is am I here to ruin your fun, the answer is no. I dont care if it is a casual game to some or a full time job, if you hit my LFM that has clear and understandable instructions, and you take it upon yourself to slow down my game by being "not up to par" that is on you.

I do sometimes enjoy going slow in pugs, but if my LFM ask for one thing and you bring another, I have no problems if your feelings get hurt. I am not saying that to be a jerk, but I am tired of puggers hitting the LFM to sponge xp.

[Eladiun]

I don't accept it, and I don't even think it's the majority that accept it. I'm in an entire guild of people who don't accept it. That said, I don't think I can change people by arguing with them, lecturing them, or complaining about them. The only thing I can do is lead by example, so that people looking for common courtesy have a friendly voice in party chat that they can enjoy the game with for the next 30 minutes or so.


As a point of clarification, I don't espouse abusing new players either that is the fastest way to destroy a game and I agree with you that the people who do are a minority overall in this game. However, I like to point out the hypocrisy in these sort of posts in general when the appear. One player or one group saying everyone should play in xyz way or that a certain style of play isn't fun for them therefore others should change to accommodate. As a DDO player you can choose to play how you want and with who you want. All the tools are there. Don't join an LFM that seems unfriendly to your play style. Leave a group that is behaving in a manner you don't like. Create your own group or even guild of like minded players. There are no white hats or black hats here. For some spending an hour running a quest may be great fun; for me when I know I could run the same quest in 15 minutes it's extremely frustrating and not fun. The game should be fun for both of us. I won't make someone else play my way so I expect the same courtesy.

Just because Elitist Vets don't enjoy the same things you do doesn't make them bad people. I guess what I am saying is that it's not my fault either. In fact, it's no ones fault.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure I will say I do get a chuckle when a certain notorious Khyberian screams, "Gimme the star! Gimme the star! Gimme the star!" and then boots some 300 hp 25% fort player from a Shroud. I'm Chaotic Neutral so sue me.

[sparty55]

Join a guild of like minded people - don't pug unless you need to fill a raid group. Once I decided to stick by these two rules my enjoyment of the game increased significantly.
Thank goodness for my guildies.

[joneb1999]

Unless anyone actually insults, gripes at, attacks you/me there is no reason to be nasty. If their game play annoys you when they join, if they do not play like the LFM states then,without any venom and just a basic explanation, drop them when you can or if the party wants to keep them you drop.

[Schmoe]

As a point of clarification, I don't espouse abusing new players either that is the fastest way to destroy a game and I agree with you that the people who do are a minority overall in this game. However, I like to point out the hypocrisy in these sort of posts in general when the appear. One player or one group saying everyone should play in xyz way or that a certain style of play isn't fun for them therefore others should change to accommodate. As a DDO player you can choose to play how you want and with who you want. All the tools are there. Don't join an LFM that seems unfriendly to your play style. Leave a group that is behaving in a manner you don't like. Create your own group or even guild of like minded players. There are no white hats or black hats here. For some spending an hour running a quest may be great fun; for me when I know I could run the same quest in 15 minutes it's extremely frustrating and not fun. The game should be fun for both of us. I won't make someone else play my way so I expect the same courtesy.

Absolutely, courtesy extends both ways, I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I think courtesy is evident in how we make our wishes known, not in what our wishes actually are.

[Eladiun]

Absolutely, courtesy extends both ways, I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I think courtesy is evident in how we make our wishes known, not in what our wishes actually are.


No, you didn't I was just clarifying my point for charities sake.

[Schmoe]

No, you didn't I was just clarifying my point for charities sake.

You are a giver! ;)

[Battlehawke]

I'll take the blame even though I wasn't there. J/k. There are many different people with many different ideas/concepts/lifestyles that play this "game" that we love. Ultimately, you have to remember that people seldom "change" and they "are who the are", and will be that way all their lives. Sometimes life altering things happen that change people and sometimes, experience and "life" make people better. But, if you think real hard, the jerks that you went to school with are still jerks, the nice are still nice and so forth. People's personallities definately "shine" through in game.....

"HOW YOU DO ANYTHING IN LIFE IS HOW YOU DO EVERYTHING IN LIFE"

[Eladiun]

You are a giver! ;)


**** auto-correct.

[Braegan]

Oh Talon.

While I may agree with you on some points, you just need to let it go man. There are on average two dozen or so LFM's that pop up daily that I don't want to be a part of (for whatever reason), and you know I just don't join. Simple as that. I don't subject myself to groups in which my fun would be dwarfed.

You sir, sound like you are playing the martyr. Hard to be certain with blanket statements. But joining groups that advertise things you don't like and moaning about it afterwards is just foolish. Grouping with known personality types that rub you the wrong way is again self-inflicted.

You remind me of the old joke. Guy walks into a doctor's office and says' "It hurts everytime I do this (insert action)."

Doctor replies: "Well stop doing it."

You are responsible for your own DDO experience, and it's really sad. I mean really sad that you seem like a decent person but I can't for the life of me remember the last time you posted anything about you having fun in game at all.

[Raithe]

I'm going to go a bit off-topic here because this isn't simply a matter of "internet anonymity" or a lack of social normalizations. As a few people pointed out (essentially), MMOs have reached a social normal that is largely dysfunctional. It's the reason why almost all MMOs fail eventually. WoW is not a failure yet by any stretch, but it is a bit shy of its peak population (currently 11.4 million, peak was beyond 12 million, and it isn't because the world population is declining).

MMOs attract a particular type of player who is not interested in actually playing the game at hand, they are mostly interested in attaining rewards and recognition for their "accomplishments" in the game. They make up about 40% of the people who would play an MMO for any reason. I call them metagamers, but most people usually refer to them as "powergamers," even though I would reserve that term for someone who plays a lot, regardless of their playstyle.

Here is an example post from that particular playstyle:



I can't help that my builds are better than a newbs. I can't help that I have skills and twink gear they don't. I can't help that I'm on my second or third TR and have raid gear and GS. I can't help that I have run the quest 50+times in some cases. I can help that I'm better, faster, and kill things in half the time you do or take 1/4 the damage you do or that I am self sufficient and don't need to keep a healer on my hip.

I can't help that running at your pace isn't fun for me anymore. That what you call zerging I call moving at a fast and efficient pace.

I don't put up no newb lfms and I'm more than happy to help and give advice but I'm not going to not enjoy myself for the sake of others. I have taken a lot of newbs on their first XYZ raid and explained step by step what we are doing but I'm not going to sit around so someone can take in the scenery.

I have a limited play time and in that window I have goals to accomplish.


Important things to understand about the metagamer:

1) He doesn't particularly care about the actual game structure, just the rewards obtained and the character recognition (loot, build acceptance, accomplishment tags). He may not be very good at the game, either, which may make him insecure about helping other people play.

2) His primary goal is recognition, so having everyone playing the game competing with him for recognition would not be ideal. They therefore typically go to great lengths to distance themselves from anyone they think might be inferior. They make fun of new players, they scoff at "bad builds," they make sure everyone knows that if you don't have this particular piece of gear you are automatically "subpar."

3) Metagamers will stick with a game for a long time because of the appeal and recognition of being a veteran. They may even stop liking the gameplay at all, and will develop a low tolerance to "fluffy" additions to the game that don't benefit their quest for character power and notoriety, but they'll stick around anyway. The current trend in MMOs is that metagamers will remain long after the other playstyles have grown tired of the rampant powergaming, but then even they will peter out as the lack of lower people in the pecking order causes metagamers to grow frustrated and leave. Metagaming populations generally do not thrive well on their own, they need someone over which to feel superior.

I believe that DDO: Eberron Unlimited was a bid to attract players to the game who wouldn't be willing to pay to play with metagamers, but who would play under free-to-play conditions. In my opinion, it has worked. And while I think the current game population is much, much better than just prior to the launch of DDO: EU, time has taken its toll on even the F2P market and powergaming combined with a lack of solid gameplay (due to freakishly bad game mechanics) is limiting the target demographic to a particular subsector. It's really quite a shame, because DDO has some of the best technical specs of any MMO I've played. Great graphics playable on a huge variety of existing computers combined with semi-decent AI and stellar game physics.

[Victorhammer]

I'm going to go a bit off-topic here because this isn't simply a matter of "internet anonymity" or a lack of social normalizations. As a few people pointed out (essentially), MMOs have reached a social normal that is largely dysfunctional. It's the reason why almost all MMOs fail eventually. WoW is not a failure yet by any stretch, but it is a bit shy of its peak population (currently 11.4 million, peak was beyond 12 million, and it isn't because the world population is declining).

MMOs attract a particular type of player who is not interested in actually playing the game at hand, they are mostly interested in attaining rewards and recognition for their "accomplishments" in the game. They make up about 40% of the people who would play an MMO for any reason. I call them metagamers, but most people usually refer to them as "powergamers," even though I would reserve that term for someone who plays a lot, regardless of their playstyle.

Here is an example post from that particular playstyle:



Important things to understand about the metagamer:

1) He doesn't particularly care about the actual game structure, just the rewards obtained and the character recognition (loot, build acceptance, accomplishment tags). He may not be very good at the game, either, which may make him insecure about helping other people play.

2) His primary goal is recognition, so having everyone playing the game competing with him for recognition would not be ideal. They therefore typically go to great lengths to distance themselves from anyone they think might be inferior. They make fun of new players, they scoff at "bad builds," they make sure everyone knows that if you don't have this particular piece of gear you are automatically "subpar."

3) Metagamers will stick with a game for a long time because of the appeal and recognition of being a veteran. They may even stop liking the gameplay at all, and will develop a low tolerance to "fluffy" additions to the game that don't benefit their quest for character power and notoriety, but they'll stick around anyway. The current trend in MMOs is that metagamers will remain long after the other playstyles have grown tired of the rampant powergaming, but then even they will peter out as the lack of lower people in the pecking order causes metagamers to grow frustrated and leave. Metagaming populations generally do not thrive well on their own, they need someone over which to feel superior.

I believe that DDO: Eberron Unlimited was a bid to attract players to the game who wouldn't be willing to pay to play with metagamers, but who would play under free-to-play conditions. In my opinion, it has worked. And while I think the current game population is much, much better than just prior to the launch of DDO: EU, time has taken its toll on even the F2P market and powergaming combined with a lack of solid gameplay (due to freakishly bad game mechanics) is limiting the target demographic to a particular subsector. It's really quite a shame, because DDO has some of the best technical specs of any MMO I've played. Great graphics playable on a huge variety of existing computers combined with semi-decent AI and stellar game physics.

But you are missing one important point. You do not have to game with the metagamer ever. Guilds make it even easier. Restrict your conversation pannel to guild only and quest guild only and enjoy the game for how it was made. Explore it with your friends and avoid the metagamer altogether. You control your level of exposure to the metagamer. The only place they have some level of infuence is with the AH. But now with canith crafting even that has less impact than it used to have. All of this drama that I read on the forum I have never experienced in game because I play with a known group of people and none of us are metagamers. None of us have god hood gear and none of us have done all of the quests on the game yet. So we are really enjoying the fun and have none of the drama at all. That is the one aspect of this game that I really like. The metagamer is really unimportant and not needed at all to the ddo experience. Same goes for the vet player. They have different goals anyway. They have played every quest in the game and have every move memorized. They are in it for max exp per second. They no longer enjoy the game they are grinding quests. If you play with them you are expected to do the same and not slow them down. Can not say I blame them they have a goal and the game is unique enough for each to have their own way. PUG is the only place where the players mix and bad experiences can happen. That is why many people do not use PUG.

[Lewendriel]

As I have posted in other thread and speaking as a fairly new player of DDO.

I enjoyed playing from lvl 1 in Korthos Island. I learned quickly how to use LFM and in my experience that is one the best LFM tools I have met in any mmorpgs. Seriously it is! why ? Cause you can put in exactly what you looking for. I learned that quickly cause getting through a dungeon for the first time I like to listen to DM voice and get the story line as well and zergers, TRs, Vets, metagamers - call them all what you want dont have time for that.

As a cleric you also soon realize that everything is your fault. It was my fault that I couldnt heal a player drowning in water even though clerics cant cast spells while swimming. As a new player I thought to myself, this is not right. i may not know how to build an über super healer, but at least I try my best. I was asking in /advice and searched info on internet, reading up, to go get better and knowlegde.

First of I started to use Teamplayers / no zergs or rushers / [name of quest] / [Difficulty] and bingo - Actually it worked. Got very nice groups with very nice ppl, some just as new as I was and sometimes ppl that was TRing for the 3rd time still taking time and enjoying the game. To this day I always put Teamplayers first in my LFM and it is indeed very rare that I meet rude ppl. I even tried once to put up a LFM for Hound of Xoriat and got a good team, we didnt make it, but we had fun and was close to completion alltogether.

I even experienced once with a group doing Waterworks as lvl 3 on hard, that one member span off and started to solo around. To my big surprise the other players actually stated, 'didnt you read the LFM; it clearly stated, Teamplayers!'. Result was that he left after few minutes and we got a replacement.

Another thing I also have learned is simply before the run starts, tell the group what you want. I usually start out with:
"Please stick together as you will all benefit from the aoe heals and preserves my sp better. I will try to position myself close to ranged dps to benefit from my RS.".

My point is: It is indeed very rare I get rude ppl by acting this way (dare I say it; nice :D )

regards,
Lew

[Emizand]

if I join a group that ruins my fun.
in some way or another.

It is my fault that I join a group with people who are rude.

leave people behind. or dead. do not wait to open chests till everyone is in, or to finish part one of a series.

who give spoilers to those who dont want them.

who get upset when someone does not know something, or do it like their favorite guildy does.

My fault if I join a group that treats new players badly.

my fault for joining a group that uses exploits or questionable tactics.

my fault for not making sure the group I was joining did not practics common courtesy.

or have any concern for other players...and their fun.



Apparently, protesting against mal-treatment of other players or rudeness in any way is ruining "their" fun.

Apparently rude people have the right to be rude. and it is my fault to not specify in my LFMs....that I do not want rude people. Or my fault to only join LFMs that specify tolerance of other people...and doing a quest for fun.

Common courtesy is not common. And nice people should go take time to find the one other guy on the server who plays nice....

My responsibility to find nice and polite people.
and how dare I suggest that someone else should play nice with others.

How dare I expect other people to not be rude. for other people to have consideration.


Sorry...guess it's my fault


You're carrying way too much guilt. Have you thought about therapy?

[Eladiun]

I'm going to go a bit off-topic here because this isn't simply a matter of "internet anonymity" or a lack of social normalizations. As a few people pointed out (essentially), MMOs have reached a social normal that is largely dysfunctional. It's the reason why almost all MMOs fail eventually. WoW is not a failure yet by any stretch, but it is a bit shy of its peak population (currently 11.4 million, peak was beyond 12 million, and it isn't because the world population is declining).

MMOs attract a particular type of player who is not interested in actually playing the game at hand, they are mostly interested in attaining rewards and recognition for their "accomplishments" in the game. They make up about 40% of the people who would play an MMO for any reason. I call them metagamers, but most people usually refer to them as "powergamers," even though I would reserve that term for someone who plays a lot, regardless of their playstyle.

Here is an example post from that particular playstyle:


1) Your primary point regarding the failure of most MMO's is based on an incorrect assumption.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/zergwatch/122008/2962_The-Top-10-MMORPG-failures-of-all-time

http://www.realpoor.com/articles/12_MMORPG_Failures_a313.html

Failure usually occurs with in the first 6 months to a year and generally has everything to to with content and design.

2) I can accept that I am a powergamer but you pull my quote out of context and twist it...

No, it always been this way here and in every game. It's the way it is. When I came back to the game a little over a year and a half ago things were hard. Elite Amarath was scary... now it's not. Shroud use to be hard..now it's just a given completion.

...by dropping that. If we were talking about golf not DDO and I said, I've been playing 3 rounds a week for a year and a half so I'm going to be better than someone who plays once a month...would that be incorrect. Practice makes perfect in anything. If you do not grow and change then you aren't learning and you are stagnant. Considering I play 30+ hours a week if I did not improve and grow then something is wrong with me.

Even in team sports, baseball, soccer, softball, etc. it's more fun to play with those that challenge and teach you. As semi-pro player on a beer league team gets bored fast. This is human nature. What is fun and challenging for a beginner is boring and monotonousness for some with greater experience.

In summary I quote myself...


As a point of clarification, I don't espouse abusing new players either that is the fastest way to destroy a game and I agree with you that the people who do are a minority overall in this game. However, I like to point out the hypocrisy in these sort of posts in general when the appear. One player or one group saying everyone should play in xyz way or that a certain style of play isn't fun for them therefore others should change to accommodate. As a DDO player you can choose to play how you want and with who you want. All the tools are there. Don't join an LFM that seems unfriendly to your play style. Leave a group that is behaving in a manner you don't like. Create your own group or even guild of like minded players. There are no white hats or black hats here. For some spending an hour running a quest may be great fun; for me when I know I could run the same quest in 15 minutes it's extremely frustrating and not fun. The game should be fun for both of us. I won't make someone else play my way so I expect the same courtesy.

Just because Elitist Vets don't enjoy the same things you do doesn't make them bad people. I guess what I am saying is that it's not my fault either. In fact, it's no ones fault.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure I will say I do get a chuckle when a certain notorious Khyberian screams, "Gimme the star! Gimme the star! Gimme the star!" and then boots some 300 hp 25% fort player from a Shroud. I'm Chaotic Neutral so sue me.

[Kakashi67]

You're carrying way too much guilt. Have you thought about therapy?

Admission IS the first step. :)

[Lewendriel]

There is a different between being rude and powergamers.

Being rude is to yell at ppl and call them varies names, kick ppl out.

Being a powergamer is a question of not having the patience if a player dies and show the frustration openly.

I know there a players that are way better than me. I know there is players that know each and every single tactics from Korthos Island to ToD. I respect all players for what they are humans behind a monitor and a keyboard.

I listen and take advice from those who knows better and if I accidently end of in a powergamer group, I have two options - try to keep up or leave. Also by telling the group that I'm not a powergamer, they have two options - to keep me or ask you to leave. I dont mind leave if ppl ask me to; not like I'm gonna sit and cry over it. I just put up own LFM or wait till some friends are online - no biggie.

Point being; We are all different and sometimes ppl end up in a wrong group. It happens but what's the point in yelling, calling ppl names, mocking ect. !?!? I really dont get it. Why not just; ask the person to leave.

- IF X = refuses to leave Then Disband group
- While single
- Reinv all except X
- End While

Seriously - ask politely if not gonna happen, then just regroup - it takes what ? 10 - 20 seconds ?

I've said it tons of times; Be nice and ppl will be nice as well.

regards,
Lew