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Zaodon
08-01-2011, 12:50 PM
I had some ideas about, perhaps, changes to intimidate which could make it function a bit more flexibly. I'll write the idea like patch notes:

Changes to Intimidate:
A Successful Intimidate check has the following 2 effects:
1. puts that player immediately on the top of the hate list for all affected targets, plus a buffer, based on how much they succeeded by.
2. places a debuff on all targets affected called "Intimidated". Any player other than the one who placed the "Intimidated" debuff receive less hate from attacks and spells on the affected targets. The player who placed the "Intimidated" debuff receives more hate from attacks and spells on the affected targets.
- If more than 1 player successfully uses Intimidate on the same target(s), the higher final skill check value overwrites the lower one (higher total roll wins).
- this debuff lasts (X) seconds (to be determined, maybe 15 like it is now)

An Unsuccessful Intimidate check has the following effect:
1. Adds a buff to the player called "Bully". All attacks by a player with this buff generate a small bonus to the hate generated.
- this buff lasts (X) seconds (to be determined, maybe 15 like it is now)


Groups/Raids could decide who will be the lead DPS ("tank"), and they will be the only one using Intimidate (no other players should be using it). By cycling Intim into their rotation (with a good intim skill), they will be able to maintain agro much more reliably without having to worry so much about "damage spikes" stealing their agro away. Yes, this could still happen anyway with a big enough spike, but with the dual affect of "I deal more hate, everyone else deals less hate" while the debuff is applied, it will mean that the "tank" should be able to keep agro against other DPS who are at least somewhat close in overall DPS with the tank, or even if they out-DPS the tank by only a modest amount. i.e. if the tanks DPS is at least somewhere near the highest DPS, they should be able to keep agro with no agro swapping.

Then, of course, when you factor in hate-generating gear/skills (and hate-reducing gear/skills other players might decide to wear), this should mean players can build intim tanks which are able to properly place their build points (stats, skills, feats, enhancements) towards tanking to "make up for" not fully maximizing DPS, yet still retain the new flavor of intimidate which does in fact rely on steady DPS (not just spamming the intim button) to retain hate.

i.e. Its a mix of the old and new methods. You must maintain steady DPS, but your Intim (+skills/gear) serves to put you ahead of other DPS so long as your DPS is not totally gimped.

So, you can't stand there and spam the key while shield blocking, but at the same time, you are not required to simply make a "Max DPS toon with hate gear on". This form of Intim allows you to at least make an AC-build or DR build (or a combination thereof) to synergize with Intim, so long as you also make sure the DPS isn't completely sacrificed in doing so. In other words, it makes more builds viable, and thus less "cookie cutter" effect in the game.

Thoughts?

Zaodon
08-02-2011, 07:39 AM
Was hoping to get at least some feedback on this. :)

J1NG
08-02-2011, 08:08 AM
I think (might be just me) that the reason no one commented on anything is... Well...

It reads like how it functions right now, live, on DDO.

So... there was a bit of "Are you serious?" mixed in with "You haven't really proposed anything", certainly on my end. So that's why I didn't post anything.

Or at least, that's how it "should" be working.

J1NG

Zaodon
08-02-2011, 08:19 AM
I think (might be just me) that the reason no one commented on anything is... Well...

It reads like how it functions right now, live, on DDO.

So... there was a bit of "Are you serious?" mixed in with "You haven't really proposed anything", certainly on my end. So that's why I didn't post anything.

Or at least, that's how it "should" be working.

J1NG

Not at all, the current version on live does not apply a "Debuff" to the affected mobs which reduces other people's agro. That is key to the change. I never said my idea was "radically different" from current. But it would have a huge impact on viable character builds because it effectively adds "agro" better, meaning players could opt to sacrifice a little (LITTLE) dps for more ac or dr or both.

Gildane
08-02-2011, 08:28 AM
It is not exactly like what we have now, it is close with a tweak. My main is a flavor-build tank(sadly, I wish i could call a sword and board melee mainstream, but it just would not be so in the game we play). I am missing 2 pieces(ToD ring-set for +15% hate) and eGem of Many Facets(eClaw set for +20% hate), but even so I don't have issues holding aggro since the changes to intimidate(unless someone is bound and determined to take aggro, but that is a whole other thread). From reading the original post, i get the feeling that we are talking more about a barb, pally or fighter that are DPS spec'd. If they max intimidate and have a +15 item they can switch into, they should be able to use what we have now in the game to do decent hate managment. Intimidate seems to be working halfway decent atm, I would love it if they made changes to make S/B tanks more viable, which would probably entail a major overhaul of AC, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

RTN
08-02-2011, 08:46 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't see the need for this tweak.

Intim works just fine now w/ S&B. You don't need a max DPS build, just a decent DPS build. If you have one of the Defender PrE w/ as much intim as you can get, plus a few pieces of gear (ex., the relatively easily acquired Levik's bracers and shield), you generate enough hate in most cases. The hardest part might be a DR breaking decent weapon, but I think a Min2 Khopesh or DA should be fine (I prefer the epic Chimera's Fang on a pally and after U11, I think it should work for fighters as well, but that is a little harder to acquire).

Yes, you might occasionally run into a completely max DPS barb or twf pally that can burst damage to get agro (especially when they insist on wearing things like the claw set), but if you're running with people like that regularly, you probably have the ability to get better gear yourself.

You can also tell the barb to take off hate generating gear or turn off power attack if you're having trouble maintaining agro. They won't be happy, but that's really tough luck.

J1NG
08-02-2011, 08:55 AM
OK. So why not just give all intim stages an extra 50% hate generation?

S+B Intim = 150%
S+B fail = 100%
Intim = 100%
Intim fail = 50%

Sorry if lacking detail, but eating at the moment to type more.

J1NG

Gildane
08-02-2011, 09:01 AM
You don't need a max DPS build, just a decent DPS build. If you have one of the Defender PrE w/ as much intim as you can get, plus a few pieces of gear (ex., the relatively easily acquired Verik's bracers and shield), you generate enough hate in most cases.

I assume you are talking about Levik's set? I think Veriks is a Kensai ToD set.

RTN
08-02-2011, 09:02 AM
I assume you are talking about Levik's set? I think Veriks is a Kensai ToD set.

Yep, that's the one I mean. It didn't sound right, but I was too lazy to google it. I'll fix it. Thanks!

Zaodon
08-02-2011, 09:09 AM
OK. So why not just give all intim stages an extra 50% hate generation?

S+B Intim = 150%
S+B fail = 100%
Intim = 100%
Intim fail = 50%

Sorry if lacking detail, but eating at the moment to type more.

J1NG

I suppose that is mostly comparable, with the exception that the targets you are not DPSing are still gaining full hate from other players, such as aoes from casters. The idea of "Intimidated" reducing hate from other players serves to greater preserve other players from spiking on mobs the current Intim'er isn't DPSing at the moment.

J1NG
08-02-2011, 09:55 AM
I suppose that is mostly comparable, with the exception that the targets you are not DPSing are still gaining full hate from other players, such as aoes from casters. The idea of "Intimidated" reducing hate from other players serves to greater preserve other players from spiking on mobs the current Intim'er isn't DPSing at the moment.

Er... I don't see the issue personally.

Successful intim means I have your aggro as I'm top billing (currently in place). With the extra 150% on top, I am definately ahead of others so long as I dps the ones I want to keep. Not my issue if you take aggro of the ones I'm not dps'ing now is it? Even against aoe effects and whatnot. So is there a need to reduce other threat from others? It just seems like unnecessary calculations to me.

J1NG

MrWicae
08-02-2011, 11:49 AM
Personally I would like to see them just lower the cool down from 15 seconds to like 8 or 10.