Seriously, PM light damage......nerf it PLZ!!!!

[Drekisen]

I really am all for being more vulnerable to light damage while in PM form.....but it's crazy as it stands now, 2x-4x damage taken is simply too much.

Make it 1x-2x........seriously, player character PM's are the equivalent of red named dungeon bosses in power....maybe not mega HP-wise, but we shouldn't be equivalent to the trash.......you can't one shot those bosses unless you are doing the content way under your level....why is it we should suffer that fate.

I know I can just turn off form for situations like this and use my hireling.....but the damage taken seems a bit excessive IMO.

I know use tactics, and I do, but when you walk into a room with 2-3 casters spamming light rays...you don't even have time to think....much less react.

[The_Brave2]

First off, 1-2x damage is uh.. lol.. 1x damage is normal damage :rolleyes:

Second, PM should have a weakness, they have good damage mitigation to everything else, I dont see a problem with it especially as almost nothing uses light damage.

[Simplesimon1979]

2x is fine. Now I won't use vampire form cause 4x does stink. As long as you started with some CON you won't get one or two shotted and a quckened max/empower burst will put you right back up

[TheDearLeader]

I'm rather pleased with it. Running with the Devils on a First-Time Pale Master = Hilarious.

[haku-ba]

Many quests have mobs that use light damage. You would be surprised how often searing light is cast, and in some quests it can be very heavily spammed by casters. The only way to avoid it is to have no aggro or to kill them before they can get it off!

I imagine some quests are quite a bit tougher on a PM because of it, but it is up to the player to decide whether the benefits of being PM outway the negatives.

[KillEveryone]

I'm quite fine with it.

[gerardIII]

Been there done that, here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3848388&postcount=7

[Zirun]

Second, PM should have a weakness, they have good damage mitigation to everything else, I dont see a problem with it especially as almost nothing uses light damage.

You never realize just how many enemies use light damage until you roll a PM and watch your health get demolished while in form. Everybody knows about Running with the Devils, but pretty much every healing caster casts Searing Light. Wight Priests (which are everywhere), 2 types of enemies on Sorrowdusk Island, a lot of scorrow bosses (in the Xorian Cipher and other places), and many, many more. I'd wager at least half the quests in the game have at least one monster that uses light damage. Maybe just a touch less.

And I don't have the best-equipped PM (only 100 HP at level 8), but they do about half my health in a non-Vampire form. One-shot in Vampire. Those aren't even super-powered bosses casting those, either. That's what your run-of-the-mill Searing Light does. Not to mention it's a guaranteed Concentration check fail if you don't have Quicken running.

Obviously people better equipped than me will have an easier time with it, but it's certainly not easy for an average person, nor does almost nothing use light damage. 4x light damage on Vampire form is completely absurd, and basically unlivable for an untwinked character.

[stille_nacht]

First off, 1-2x damage is uh.. lol.. 1x damage is normal damage :rolleyes:

Second, PM should have a weakness, they have good damage mitigation to everything else, I dont see a problem with it especially as almost nothing uses light damage.

replace "almost nothing" with "every enemy shaman or cleric"

IMO, it should be about 1.5 for all forms besides vamp, 2 for vamp. I mean, weakness, good, disabling the form in 30% of quests, bad

[Dawnsfire]

I just gave up on them personally. I leveled my Aov Fvs to 20 instead. He has all the self healing he needs, an awesome pre and a decent assortment of powerful attack spells without dealing with the BS. There is no other Pre in this game that has such a dramatic downside.

Some people are cool with making the tradeoffs. If you want to play a mage and do not want to risk being oneshotted in quests I suggest a WF AM Necro. It is what the devs want you to play anyways ;)

[Drekisen]

as almost nothing uses light damage.

This statement tells me you obviously do not play PM's, so why are you even in this thread?

Funny thing is, there are actually quite a few, and you are usually being bombarded by multiples at once. It's excessive, and there is no save or resistance item that will help when you are getting slammed that bad.

IMO, this is just a typical example of Turbine DEV extremity.

As far as the x's amount, I guess I was thinking....

normal 25
1x 50
2x 75
3x 100
4x 125

[The_Brave2]

This statement tells me you obviously do not play PM's, so why are you even in this thread?

Funny thing is, there are actually quite a few, and you are usually being bombarded by multiples at once. It's excessive, and there is no save or resistance item that will help when you are getting slammed that bad.

IMO, this is just a typical example of Turbine DEV extremity.





Nope, never played a PM, never will. Sure, i might be wrong on that count, but still... 'omg im taking dmg, stop that please' is kinda... lol.

[gerardIII]

I just gave up on them personally. I leveled my Aov Fvs to 20 instead. He has all the self healing he needs, an awesome pre and a decent assortment of powerful attack spells without dealing with the BS. There is no other Pre in this game that has such a dramatic downside.

Some people are cool with making the tradeoffs. If you want to play a mage and do not want to risk being oneshotted in quests I suggest a WF AM Necro. It is what the devs want you to play anyways ;)

I leveled up my Drow PM just fine. Some trouble in Coal Chamber when trying the Vampire form, but nothing else. I wasn't in undead form in Running with Devils until the end fight (also that's when I saved the party, they all died, I solo'd the bosses and I brought them Soulstones back to the shrine).

Now I have 422hp (not uber I know) raged in lich form (GS +45HP coming soon for a total of 467), I do OK in epics as CC, and I do very good in Shroud with Wail/Circle of Death/FOD/Necrotic Ray in part 1,2,4 where I'm always at the top of the kill count, even when there are other casters in the group.

Of course light spells are a problem when you are lvl 15 with as low as 150hp, but that's not because of the PM prestige enhancements. CON is not a dump stat.

lvl 15 wizard:
starting con 14+6item = 20 => +75hp
(+6 items at lvl 15 are not really expensive)
+20 heroic durability
+60 wizard
Total 155hp.
Now with Toughness: +17hp
let's say +20hp Toughness enhancements
+30 greater false life (not expensive at lvl 15)
that's 222hp at lvl 15 if my math is correct.

Add to that Minos Legens, +2 tome, +2 airship, + 2 rage and you have +65hp, so total 287. Not too bad.
The Death aura is 25 hp /2 seconds, also you have the burst for emergencies, around 150hp.

[The_Brave2]

starting con 14+6item = 20 => +75hp

Why are you starting with 14 con when all you need is Int and Con on a wizard? o_O

[gerardIII]

Why are you starting with 14 con when all you need is Int and Con on a wizard? o_O

I start with 14 Con on a drow. Also all classes need Str.
Starting stats (TR 1 drow):
STR 12
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 20
WIS 8
CHA 10

If I had 15 Con(costs 3 points) I would have ended up with 9 STR.

[The_Brave2]

all classes need Str.
.

Absolutely not. +6 item will fix any carrying compacity problems you have at cap, +2 tome also helps. no reason to gimp your HP for no reason imo.

[gerardIII]

+1 Con wouldn't make me get +20hp at the moment.

[The_Brave2]

+1 Con wouldn't make me get +20hp at the moment.

I believe you could start with 16 con and 20 int, or am I over estimating the amount of points/starting stats you get on a drow?

[gerardIII]

I believe you could start with 16 con and 20 int, or am I over estimating the amount of points/starting stats you get on a drow?

Drow start with 8 10 6 10 8 10. I put +10 (16 points) into INT, +8 (10 points) into CON. Rest 4 points. Increasing CON by 1 costs 3 points.

[The_Brave2]

Drow start with 8 10 6 10 8 10. I put +10 (16 points) into INT, +8 (10 points) into CON. Rest 4 points. Increasing CON by 1 costs 3 points.

Fair enough.

[gerardIII]

Also with my current STR I can bash those bashable doors :D

[voodoogroves]

All I can say is ... it gets better.

You learn who does what and when. Farming the WizKing front room for scrolls may take you a few times to learn who to dodge and when so you don't get one-shot, but it's all worth it.

I'm not decked out in tons of gear on my capped PM and I haven't TR'd him yet or anything - but he's a freaking beast.

Part of this may be my complete and total ignorance of Vampire form. I honestly don't use it and don't see myself ever really using it. I'm a strictly conventional Lich-Wraith dude.

I'm still a huge fan of leveling out-of-form until you get to your primary form. Damage avoiders, that's wraith ... damage soakers and DC boosters, that's Lich. Until then, stay fleshie or 'forged.

[Zildoran]

Max is 14 con on a first life drow wizard with 20 int

[Emili]

I believe you could start with 16 con and 20 int, or am I over estimating the amount of points/starting stats you get on a drow?
14 con is the same cost for elf/drow as 16 on most other races except Dwarf/WF where is equal to 18 on those in build points. Elf however can cap their stat at 16 if they have 32 points to spend. Drow however are always 28 build point races unless you TR'd into that race - then I believe you have 30 to distribute and still a little short. They are a cheap way to grab DC though.

32 point 8 8 18 18 8 8 human
32 point 8 8 18 18 8 8 helf
32 point 8 10 16 18 8 8 elf
32 point 8 8 20 18 8 8 wf

28 point 8 10 14 20 8 10 drow and 2 points left to place somewhere but not enough for 15 con as you'd need 3 points to do so.

Even looking at a TR makes me want to do ... 8 10 16 19 8 10 but it would be better off going human or helf reaching the same DC under extreme gear.

Personally I do not tweak too much nor am not the extreme build extraodanaire, (lol Norg called me a traditionalist he's pretty much right). I could very well as is not hard or any magic to it. Guess being a musician and programmer am pretty much a numbers person and could tweak the **** out of things. I definately know well enough and have enough tweaked friends and aquaintances around, but this is a game. I spent the better part of the day shaving an very old oracle pl/sql package down and rebuilding some queries it so some body else's conversion script would run in under 20 minutes now instead of the 22 hours it was taking last week, I leave the math at work.

[Dawnsfire]

I leveled up my Drow PM just fine. Some trouble in Coal Chamber when trying the Vampire form, but nothing else. I wasn't in undead form in Running with Devils until the end fight (also that's when I saved the party, they all died, I solo'd the bosses and I brought them Soulstones back to the shrine).

Now I have 422hp (not uber I know) raged in lich form (GS +45HP coming soon for a total of 467), I do OK in epics as CC, and I do very good in Shroud with Wail/Circle of Death/FOD/Necrotic Ray in part 1,2,4 where I'm always at the top of the kill count, even when there are other casters in the group.

Of course light spells are a problem when you are lvl 15 with as low as 150hp, but that's not because of the PM prestige enhancements. CON is not a dump stat.

lvl 15 wizard:
starting con 14+6item = 20 => +75hp
(+6 items at lvl 15 are not really expensive)
+20 heroic durability
+60 wizard
Total 155hp.
Now with Toughness: +17hp
let's say +20hp Toughness enhancements
+30 greater false life (not expensive at lvl 15)
that's 222hp at lvl 15 if my math is correct.

Add to that Minos Legens, +2 tome, +2 airship, + 2 rage and you have +65hp, so total 287. Not too bad.
The Death aura is 25 hp /2 seconds, also you have the burst for emergencies, around 150hp.

I am so happy that you enjoy this. My point still stands. I will play a class and Pre that is useful in all quests. I do not appreciate putting a lot of time into leveling a character to find that I have to ignore my Pre and all the ap I sunk into it to run a given quest.

For some people struggling through is not a fun game night. If you add to that the fact that there is not a single other Pre that risks being one/two shotted on a regular basis and you have the complaint in a nutshell. I am fairly certain that Savants would be far less popular if they took 2-4x damage from their opposing element (especially if resistance to that element did not exist). Better yet try convincing a WF character to run a quest where every third combatant is a rust monster.

When I am in the mood to try an instakill mage in the future I will just go WF AM. If I spend 4-6 ap and I can erase their only vulnerability (except those scary rusties).

[Drekisen]

I see it the other way around really, I just hit level 6 and I am playing in Zombie form unless it's just completely un-doable.

If anything at all it's going to make me that much better of a PM by the time I hit Lich form when you are almost unstoppable.

I compare it to AC....why bother with the the AC at low levels when it's not going to matter at high levels anyways...you learn how to live without it and are used to it and that much better by the time you hit cap.

But seriously, Barbs and Fighters can do crazy DPS too and even without fortification they are not capable of being one shotted by a single melee enemy critical hit.....like full HP to zero in one shot.

Our self healing in form is nice and all, but it's not so powerful that I think it warrants us being crippled by light rays. Hurt more or even scary is fine.....it's beyond that point tho.

It'll be more doable when I hit level 7 and get Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst.

Honestly tho, light rays are the scariest thing I have ever faced in the game when ur level 6 and only have lesser death aura....LOL

That tiefling optional in Partycrashers.......with the whole gang of them and the restroom shrines....wow....that was...."exciting".

[Boegvar]

Drow is a way to be able to gimp a pm (i know it sounds hard and i learned it the hard way).
Wizzies have low base hp so they need con. I would never start an arcane caster with fewer than 16 con, and 16 con only if im tred the char and can use my gs hp item, and want to plan an elf.
No1 forces a pm to stay in undead form all the time.

[Postumus]

Absolutely not. +6 item will fix any carrying compacity problems you have at cap, +2 tome also helps. no reason to gimp your HP for no reason imo.

Not on a a character that you use for crafting. All those essences and shards and collectibles add a LOT of weight for a dinky 14 STR wiz.

[Boegvar]

Not on a a character that you use for crafting. All those essences and shards and collectibles add a LOT of weight for a dinky 14 STR wiz.

There is a bank in the crafting area. Just put your crafting stuff in a bag, put the bag in the bank, and you have to deal only with the essences you loot.
You dont need to carry your all your stuff.

[Postumus]

Everybody knows about Running with the Devils, but pretty much every healing caster casts Searing Light. Wight Priests (which are everywhere), 2 types of enemies on Sorrowdusk Island, a lot of scorrow bosses (in the Xorian Cipher and other places), and many, many more.

Yeah this is cruddy since when are wights (or other evil cleric types) supposed to be able to cast light spells? Undead casting light spells? C'mon.

[Postumus]

There is a bank in the crafting area. Just put your crafting stuff in a bag, put the bag in the bank, and you have to deal only with the essences you loot.
You dont need to carry your all your stuff.

You want to roll the dice sticking bags filled with valuables in your bank slots, you go right ahead. I've read far to many stories in the forums about folks losing their valuables that way.

[gogetta101]

Its called an ioun stone or mantle of worldshaper at least.... Thats the exact reason i got those on my pm...
Hated to get hit once by searing light than over half my hp was gone.. I only have about 519 raged and in lich...

[MrPilgrim]

Personally I've only had a problem with battling with Doomspheres with my PM because I never know what to throw at them other than Melf's Acid arrow lol and a skeleton summon so they don't go for me. The x4 or x2 light damage I can totally deal with since hey, PM undead forms rock.

[The_Brave2]

Personally I've only had a problem with battling with Doomspheres with my PM because I never know what to throw at them other than Melf's Acid arrow lol and a skeleton summon so they don't go for me. The x4 or x2 light damage I can totally deal with since hey, PM undead forms rock.

Finger Of Death.

[MrPilgrim]

Finger Of Death.

Arrr if only I can. they're undead, and usually red named like Pykzyl or something.

[The_Brave2]

Arrr if only I can. they're undead, and usually red named like Pykzyl or something.

Ah, im thinking mainstream Beholders. Shoot em up with Disintegrate.

[LunaCee]

Finger Of Death.

Except for the fact that Doomspheres are UNDEAD beholders with a stack of undead immunities. I think they are also able to be lit up with lightning damage though. Makes that one electric DoT a nice toy to smack them around with. The other option being the 9th level Eladrin summon since it has light damage spammage and draws attention. Which allows for things like disintegrate (which can be very nice if you took the force line and boosted untyped damage...)

[The_Brave2]

Except for the fact that Doomspheres are UNDEAD beholders with a stack of undead immunities. I think they are also able to be lit up with lightning damage though. Makes that one electric DoT a nice toy to smack them around with. The other option being the 9th level Eladrin summon since it has light damage spammage and draws attention. Which allows for things like disintegrate (which can be very nice if you took the force line and boosted untyped damage...)

Yes, I corrected myself. I read beholder when it said doomsphere. On a side note, they are immune to elec damage.

[Bodic]

house P partycrashers

Mirror Cloak 30 res light damage once it gets revamp'd

yes light damage is bad in vampire form an FvS can crit +5k searing on a 5 stack menace.

most go Lich as it is the +Int so double damage

they are all 2x other than Vamp at 4x

[FrozenNova]

It's mostly the fact that actual vampires take less light damage than in-form PM's that bugs me.

[Ryiah]

If you add to that the fact that there is not a single other Pre that risks being one/two shotted on a regular basis and you have the complaint in a nutshell.

So you want all the advantages of the Pale Master PrE without any of the disadvantages? Not only does Pale Master have the capacity to self-heal, it also has immunities and stat increases. Of course it has disadvantages. Any sensible developer would implement one.

Also as for being one/two-shotted, you should learn when to use and not use your forms. Even if you can dodge the light damage or kill the enemies before they can use it, there are going to be situations when you cannot get away with staying in a form where nobody but yourself can heal you.

Also for those who actually have done this, please don't dump your HP. You can somewhat dump CON and end up with a decent HP still, but I wouldn't recommend that either. I also don't recommend Drow. As much as I dislike running a warforged, losing 1 DC for essentially 4 CON (6 with enhancements which also unlock more Toughness enhancements) is well worth not getting killed quickly. Remember, your DCs are worthless when you are dead.

[The_Brave2]

I disagree with going PM on a WF.... you might as well go AM if you are going to loose the +1 to DC from drow.. Better self healing and SLA's are well worth it. :D

[Orratti]

Undead take double damage and sometimes more from light spells. Them's the brakes.

I guess you either need to wait for that melee charge to finish taking them out for you or single target them with a spell that will take them out before blasting they whole room and getting their aggro.

Most melee can't be one shotted true but they take alot of shots that casters can avoid. I've seen plenty drop like a rock when smacked by an ogre. Without deathward around they and most others can easily fall to one shot death effects something a pm has no reason to fear.

Don't you guys get undead companions you can use as aggro magnets until you can take out the enemies that are dangerous to you?

As a pale master I believe it would be possible to charm all the doomsphere's companion skellies and have them kill it for you or at least keep it's attention off of you while you cast something effective. I may be wrong and they are immune to being charmed but I could swear I've seen it done before.

[Emili]

As a pale master I believe it would be possible to charm all the doomsphere's companion skellies and have them kill it for you or at least keep it's attention off of you while you cast something effective. I may be wrong and they are immune to being charmed but I could swear I've seen it done before.


Cholthulzz can be a pain as a PM even you can get stat damaged if not warded (sf necklace or such). What's also funny is you cannot restore while in undead form. Cholthulzz is Lawful Good, not sure about undead Pykzyl ... Pykzyl is far easier than Cholthulzz - k boots or sipked boots help there. They nuke fine though.

My advice as always to all wizards is there are other spells outside you specialties which actually do very well... My PM for instance has a high ice spec and a minor force spec outside using necro spells.


I really am all for being more vulnerable to light damage while in PM form.....but it's crazy as it stands now, 2x-4x damage taken is simply too much.

Make it 1x-2x........seriously, player character PM's are the equivalent of red named dungeon bosses in power....maybe not mega HP-wise, but we shouldn't be equivalent to the trash.......you can't one shot those bosses unless you are doing the content way under your level....why is it we should suffer that fate.

I know I can just turn off form for situations like this and use my hireling.....but the damage taken seems a bit excessive IMO.

I know use tactics, and I do, but when you walk into a room with 2-3 casters spamming light rays...you don't even have time to think....much less react.

Leveling under vamp would be a pain ... but towards end game outside of run with devils and beyond mine is pretty invicible under lich form ... I solo farm edq1 for scrolls a lot lately. The vamp form however was poorly thought out I think, They pretty much added it to the middle to move Lich to the top being it's the best form... wraith is pretty good too.

I played with vamp form because I thought would be cool to play around with a little... teasing guildies wise. ;) ummm, Well anyway I wanted to see how bad it would be so took her into Run with devils elite - they lit her up within a minute. :) Searing light is obvious but remember sunburst is also almost always instant death too, I used to use the latter spell on black bones is like mass disruption for them.

I recomend Wraith and then Lich... the other two forms are meh or just not worth the pain. ;) While I agree Vamp is bloody bad I also would like to point out there are many useless things in a lot of other class PrE's in fact some entire PrE's are nearly useless ... place your AP in wraith and wait til you reach level and ap for lich.

[Drekisen]

So you want all the advantages of the Pale Master PrE without any of the disadvantages? Not only does Pale Master have the capacity to self-heal, it also has immunities and stat increases. Of course it has disadvantages. Any sensible developer would implement one.



And what exactly is a RS Cleric vulnerable to that has the same capacity of self healing aura's...and on top of that their aura and healing blasts uses Turn attempts and not SP.

Simply put, the 2x-4x damage is unbalanced, it needs to be toned down some.

As someone else pointed out, not even actual undead take as much light damage as PM's in form do, and that is utterly ********, we should be taking no more than slightly less damage than a real undead would, not more.

And in form you already sacrifice your racial traits, so we lose out on that as well.

Either give us full and not partial undead traits while in form or reduce the light damage some. So in vampire form we would have DR/Silver at least. And Liches get some other benefits as well besides what we get in form.

[delsoboss]

DISCLAIMER: wall of text-ish, approach at your own risk

vVvAianynAvVv, i suggest that you just let this discussion die, there was another thread where player debated this issue and still forumites without any knowledge about PMs kept on saying "it's ok leave, it be".
Many points were raised:
- that the PMs pay for their immunities and self healing basically losing external sources of healing (yeah many clerics and fvs running around with inflict spells, right?);
- that light damage against PMs was already scaled to threat them as undead (so d8 instead of d6 for many spells and such, i've not personally tested this, others did)
- that together with this change PMs turn to dust whie in form as soon as they get to 0 hp (effectively losing 10 hp);
- that in every quest with a divine mob PMs get hit for 90-105 damage/searing light (at level 7);
- that switching in and out of forms is unviable as you have to pay SP to do it and forms are on 1 min cooldowns;
- that if you are out of form you lose way more than half the benefits of the PrE and if you keep using your slas you're going to kill yourself, quickly (ys you can counter this by saying "use other spells, you're a wiz!" and i counter "ok, so elt's make that every 3 quests savants get barred off their element spells and let's see how they enjoy the game" and i'm being generous on the number of quests);
oh and - that PMs in form still drown ("i'm an almighty lich of doom you will" ... cough cough ... "you will di" .... cough cough ... cough ---> hits 0 hp ---> ding).

So there will always be someone that only reasons at cap while the main problem here is leveling and there will always be someone that thinks you're doing it wrong and everything is fine without knowing the issue.

One last point, since many of you forumites always complain about Dev time being wasted here and there and oh my god they're not fixing bugs ecc... , think of it this way: they (the Devs, not meant to be bashing you, just making a point) released vampire form at level 12 with is ridicolous 4x light damage vulnerability and the 0 hp = death change making it practically unviable, and zombie form at level 6 where every mob and his uncle is throwing searing rays for 12 points of damage against your friends and 80-90 against you (and you still don't have death aura and necro burst) ... usefull implementation, right?

[Alternative]

Funny how people who don't play PM are the biggest experts as to what weaknesses they should have. What weaknesses do your WF necro archmages have? Do tell.

As for searing light damage - it is broken. Searing light already does additional damage to undead, it always did, read the description. Now both bits of damage were doubled, result? Tested just yesterday in pvp:

searing light on human form - 80 damage
searing light on lich form - 240 damage

That's already quadruple right there, I'd like a dev comment that this is what they intended. Would vampire form take double or quadruple of 240? My PM can survive two such hits, and many other things, but for new players this is simply unfair.

Suggested fix: make the supposed double damage actually double, duh.

[The_Brave2]

. What weaknesses do your WF necro archmages have?


We have 2 lower DC's. Thats a weakness right there.

[Emili]

So you want all the advantages of the Pale Master PrE without any of the disadvantages? Not only does Pale Master have the capacity to self-heal, it also has immunities and stat increases. Of course it has disadvantages. Any sensible developer would implement one.

Also as for being one/two-shotted, you should learn when to use and not use your forms. Even if you can dodge the light damage or kill the enemies before they can use it, there are going to be situations when you cannot get away with staying in a form where nobody but yourself can heal you.

Also for those who actually have done this, please don't dump your HP. You can somewhat dump CON and end up with a decent HP still, but I wouldn't recommend that either. I also don't recommend Drow. As much as I dislike running a warforged, losing 1 DC for essentially 4 CON (6 with enhancements which also unlock more Toughness enhancements) is well worth not getting killed quickly. Remember, your DCs are worthless when you are dead.

A max'd con WF with full racial enhancements would not matter if you placed it in vamp form it'd toast anyway, just an added risk of instant death. Unless you place somewhere 'bout 900+hp on him you're playing with fire. 600 or 650 just would be cutting it too close. ;) Will show why.


Funny how people who don't play PM are the biggest experts as to what weaknesses they should have. What weaknesses do your WF necro archmages have? Do tell.

As for searing light damage - it is broken. Searing light already does additional damage to undead, it always did, read the description. Now both bits of damage were doubled, result? Tested just yesterday in pvp:

searing light on human form - 80 damage
searing light on lich form - 240 damage

That's already quadruple right there, I'd like a dev comment that this is what they intended. Would vampire form take double or quadruple of 240? My PM can survive two such hits, and many other things, but for new players this is simply unfair.

Suggested fix: make the supposed double damage actually double, duh.

(Combat): Ghaele's ghaele light ray hit you for 312 points of light damage.

(Combat): Ghaele's ghaele light ray hit you for 107 points of light damage.

DD and run for the hills... ;) My gimpy witch survived...

Opps lets go back... I'm a glutten for punishment.

(Combat): Ghaele's ghaele light ray hit you for 616 points of light damage.

Ouch! that hurt ... course I took some flame strike damage at first then this was a tad overkill as I was down to bout 430hp at the time.

Mind you was in on elite... and alone. Vamp is just overkill

[Truga]

but it's crazy as it stands now, 2x-4x damage taken is simply too much.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Searing_Light

Most, if not all, light spells work like this. If anything, since d6 is 75% of d8, I'd say +75% damage to forms and +150% damage to vampires.

The alternative is to just fix the undead shrouds and make the user an actual undead, taking bonus damage from light spells themselves, instead of just scaling the damage by a fixed number.

Other than that, no. Extra damage needs to stay.

[delsoboss]

We have 2 lower DC's. Thats a weakness right there.

lol. Funny, 2 DCs are a weakness much like 2x damage from something common in every quest right?
Ah right but you can't be healed ... oh wait no you can be healed ...
But you can't self healf ... oh no wait you can self heal too ...
But you don't have undead immunities ... oh wait you got warforged immunities ...
Ah got it! No bonus hp from pre ... oh wait higher con ...
Uhm, at least you deactivate and die at 0 hp ... ah no wait you don't even bleed out (or spill oil or anything) ...
See where this is going?
Oh and if you really care about DCs spam your cheap and quickened-for-free enervation and you will be alright.

[Truga]

We have 2 lower DC's. Thats a weakness right there.

Not when you couple it with DoD+shield and 600+ HP it isn't! :D

Also it's actually 1DC lower I think? +1/2 int can be at best +1 DC, compared to human/drow...

[The_Brave2]

lol. Funny, 2 DCs are a weakness much like 2x damage from something common in every quest right?
Ah right but you can't be healed ... oh wait no you can be healed ...
But you can't self healf ... oh no wait you can self heal too ...
But you don't have undead immunities ... oh wait you got warforged immunities ...
Ah got it! No bonus hp from pre ... oh wait higher con ...
Uhm, at least you deactivate and die at 0 hp ... ah no wait you don't even bleed out (or spill oil or anything) ...
See where this is going?
Oh and if you really care about DCs spam your cheap and quickened-for-free enervation and you will be alright.


-2 DC's is in EVERY quest, while the extra damage is only some quests, undead not getting incapped is part of the game, PRE give you comparable HP to WF.

Most people dont take the SLA's for evervation, too much sp cost for the result.

Sure leveling WF AM is WAY.. and i mean WAY better than PM. but at Cap I'd say that they even out.

dont be so quick to dismiss +2 DC's. +2 to your DC can make a huge difference.

[The_Brave2]

Not when you couple it with DoD+shield and 600+ HP it isn't! :D

Also it's actually 1DC lower I think? +1/2 int can be at best +1 DC, compared to human/drow...

Drow = +1 DC over WF
PM = +1 Necro DC over AM

so +2 total over WF AM. Id say thats a notable handycap compared to taking some extra light damage. especially at cap.

[delsoboss]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Searing_Light

Most, if not all, light spells work like this. If anything, since d6 is 75% of d8, I'd say +75% damage to forms and +150% damage to vampires.

The alternative is to just fix the undead shrouds and make the user an actual undead, taking bonus damage from light spells themselves, instead of just scaling the damage by a fixed number.

Other than that, no. Extra damage needs to stay.

As has been stated before and proven by others (just read some posts above this) PMs already get the changed dice so right now it's more like 3x on all forms 6x on vampire form.

No one is saying to remove the vulnerability completely but to tone it down caus right now is just a funny way to show big numbers to friends.

Much like people that put big crits in his bio every PM should start putting the damage numbers we suffer in his/her bio, some form of sensibilization that might work maybe ...

[The_Brave2]

As has been stated before and proven by others (just read some posts above this) PMs already get the changed dice so right now it's more like 3x on all forms 6x on vampire form.

No one is saying to remove the vulnerability completely but to tone it down caus right now is just a funny way to show big numbers to friends.



If nothing else, dont use Form in quests with light damage, Its nice to see the all powerfull casters die sometimes.

[delsoboss]

-2 DC's is in EVERY quest, while the extra damage is only some quests, undead not getting incapped is part of the game, PRE give you comparable HP to WF.

Most people dont take the SLA's for evervation, too much sp cost for the result.

Sure leveling WF AM is WAY.. and i mean WAY better than PM. but at Cap I'd say that they even out.

dont be so quick to dismiss +2 DC's. +2 to your DC can make a huge difference.

You roll a 1. You miss the point.

Here we go again ... at cap is a useles sentence here, we're talking about the leveling process mostly, at cap any PM can cast a quickened empowered maximized burst with the boni given by the tier 3 pre and any kind of crazy gear to boost spell damage and be at full health right after a 540 damage searing light, leveling we cannot do this.
BTW 2 dcs can make a huge difference but no one takes enervation? ... ah well ...

[delsoboss]

If nothing else, dont use Form in quests with light damage, Its nice to see the all powerfull casters die sometimes.

you keep rolling 1s ...

Every quest with a divine caster has light damage, i don't have it figured out clearly right now but it can be close to 90% of the quest in game.

[Drekisen]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Searing_Light

Most, if not all, light spells work like this. If anything, since d6 is 75% of d8, I'd say +75% damage to forms and +150% damage to vampires.

The alternative is to just fix the undead shrouds and make the user an actual undead, taking bonus damage from light spells themselves, instead of just scaling the damage by a fixed number.

Other than that, no. Extra damage needs to stay.

Another WF'ed WIZ...are u an AM or a PM....if ur an AM have you ever even played a PM?

[Truga]

Another WF'ed WIZ...are u an AM or a PM....if ur an AM have you ever even played a PM?

I'm a WF PM. Don't have any problems some people describe. Getting hit for 300+ in epics hurts, yes. But at least it's something to look out for.

[The_Brave2]

you keep rolling 1s ...

Every quest with a divine caster has light damage, i don't have it figured out clearly right now but it can be close to 90% of the quest in game.

If we are talking about leveling, I agree with you on all accounts. I was talking about at Cap, as I said, or implied 'at cap' in almost all of my posts.

you arent going to cast enervation on the SLA cooldown enough to make it viable, you obviously havent played an AM. and yes +2 DC is HUGE. why do you think people use yugo pots and ship buffs?

I think you sir are the one rolling 1's.

[Drekisen]

Leveling under vamp would be a pain ... but towards end game outside of run with devils and beyond mine is pretty invicible under lich form ... I solo farm edq1 for scrolls a lot lately. The vamp form however was poorly thought out I think, They pretty much added it to the middle to move Lich to the top being it's the best form... wraith is pretty good too.

I played with vamp form because I thought would be cool to play around with a little... teasing guildies wise. ;) ummm, Well anyway I wanted to see how bad it would be so took her into Run with devils elite - they lit her up within a minute. :) Searing light is obvious but remember sunburst is also almost always instant death too, I used to use the latter spell on black bones is like mass disruption for them.

I recomend Wraith and then Lich... the other two forms are meh or just not worth the pain. ;) While I agree Vamp is bloody bad I also would like to point out there are many useless things in a lot of other class PrE's in fact some entire PrE's are nearly useless ... place your AP in wraith and wait til you reach level and ap for lich.




I'm on my first TR and actually was planning on sacrificing Mental Toughness for my level 3 TR feat...which I already actually did.

I know we get a free feat swap, but I am not sure which other feat I would wanna live without until level 18.

[Truga]

To be honest, be thankful healer enemies don't use their heals on you. They can heal themselves for 500+ easily, which means you'd also get hit for 500+ if they used it! :D

Edit: I didn't need quicken until level 18 or so. Until then most of incoming damage won't matter with all the concentration one has.

[Cendaer]

IMO, the light damage should probably remain the way it is. If it is tweaked down, it shouldn't be by very much.

I also think they should give Pale Masters a few more of the undead-related traits, as was mentioned by one of the previous posts. However, part of me thinks it's sort of a waste to do that, since most monsters can easily be equipped with the best DR-beater weapons.

Pale Masters are quite powerful. There's no disputing that. TR'd Pale Masters, even moreso. Especially if they're a min/max build that hasn't dumped on their CON score.

Comparing them to anything else is silly (as is the case with almost all PrE's, IMO). Sure, melee's don't get one-shotted by monsters, but they also don't get to one-shot the monsters either (at least not without considerable effort on their part).

Personally, rather than do away with the light damage, or turning it down, I'd rather the Devs give us a way to combat it, or at least lessen it's sting a bit, but make us play for it.

Give us another spell.

Give us a Globe of Darkness. It could function similarly to Globe of Invulnerability. It would be stationary, but provide a cover of darkness to a Pale Master who is in danger of being struck by light. If the Pale Master is in the darkness, they only take a portion of the incoming light damage.

(At first, I was thinking attach a sort of "light" DR to the Nightshield buff, but then I thought a globe would lend itself to more strategic gameplay.)

I don't mind playing a character that's supposed to be a glass cannon, but at least give me a means to defend myself when I'm being bombarded.

[delsoboss]

If we are talking about leveling, I agree with you on all accounts. I was talking about at Cap, as I said, or implied 'at cap' in almost all of my posts.

you arent going to cast enervation on the SLA cooldown enough to make it viable, you obviously havent played an AM. and yes +2 DC is HUGE. why do you think people use yugo pots and ship buffs?

I think you sir are the one rolling 1's.

Got me on the cooldowns, i haven't played a necro AM, i played and undergeared squishy drow ench am to cap and into some epics and it was boring to see everything standing still (or dancing still) and getting beaten on by my party members.
I know that +2 DC is huge i was pointing out that you complain about lowers DC's and ignore 1 way to level the playing field in one cast since enervation is 1d4 levels and every level carries -1 to saves so if you're unlucky you're still 1 behind, if you're lucky you are 2 above.

[Forgeborn]

And what exactly is a RS Cleric vulnerable to that has the same capacity of self healing aura's...and on top of that their aura and healing blasts uses Turn attempts and not SP.

Simply put, the 2x-4x damage is unbalanced, it needs to be toned down some.

As someone else pointed out, not even actual undead take as much light damage as PM's in form do, and that is utterly ********, we should be taking no more than slightly less damage than a real undead would, not more.

And in form you already sacrifice your racial traits, so we lose out on that as well.

Either give us full and not partial undead traits while in form or reduce the light damage some. So in vampire form we would have DR/Silver at least. And Liches get some other benefits as well besides what we get in form.


You are also aware that a 'true' undead has a - (dash) as con score right? Meaning no modifier at all, all those fancy little con boosts you have don't mean jack when there's nothing to boost in the first place. meaning you'd most likely lose a big chunk of HP whenever you go undead (as in, you have 20D8 (undead HD)+Items+feats)
'true' undead form: 160 hit dice, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life. = roughly 307 HP
half undead/current: 80 Hit die, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life, 26 con standing = roughly 387 HP, which can be boosted further as much as you can raise your con score with rage, shipbuffs, higher tomes, etc.

Also, show me where a Radiant servant gets boosts to stats, undispelable deathblock, a pretty much free attack they can use at range hitting for 20D6 negative energy damage (which, if you hadn't noticed, mobs are either flat out immune to (undead/construct) or not resistant to at all),
A choice of being 25% incorporeal, having a boost to stats which are useful (most looking here at lich with it's int/con), free heavy fortification and lifeshield effects, Damage reduction,
Or better yet, show me any PRE which gives those bonuses and isn't Pale Master.

Each PRE has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages, most PRE's require crappy feats to be able to qualify in the first place, like ninja spy, which requires dodge. The barbarian has it's drawback build into the abilities it gets, he harms himself every hit he does as soon as he uses his frenzy or death frenzy (doesn't matter to much with the slew of HP most sport though). A Favored soul has the disadvantage of giving up any resemblance to stealth when he goes Angel of Vengeance. The Pale Master has the disadvantage of taking increased light damage.

The 4x on a vamp is a bit rough though, I wouldn't mind seeing that modified down to 2x to be the same with the other forms.

[delsoboss]

To be honest, be thankful healer enemies don't use their heals on you. They can heal themselves for 500+ easily, which means you'd also get hit for 500+ if they used it! :D

Edit: I didn't need quicken until level 18 or so. Until then most of incoming damage won't matter with all the concentration one has.

But then i'll not complain about it, it's ok, it's by the rules, it's a clever way to play and it's not an arbitrary multiplier.
Granted all mobs need to start using dispel, avoid aoe and rush the healers at every encounter at the same time, but i think it could be too much for the AI.

Uhm thinking a little more about it maybe right now on the mobs forums there are divine complaining with the Devs that with the current implementation of PMs we are effectively immune to heals so they can't one shot us all the way 24/7 even during holidays.

[Drekisen]

You are also aware that a 'true' undead has a - (dash) as con score right? Meaning no modifier at all, all those fancy little con boosts you have don't mean jack when there's nothing to boost in the first place. meaning you'd most likely lose a big chunk of HP whenever you go undead (as in, you have 20D8 (undead HD)+Items+feats)
'true' undead form: 160 hit dice, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life. = roughly 307 HP
half undead/current: 80 Hit die, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life, 26 con standing = roughly 387 HP, which can be boosted further as much as you can raise your con score with rage, shipbuffs, higher tomes, etc.

Also, show me where a Radiant servant gets boosts to stats, undispelable deathblock, a pretty much free attack they can use at range hitting for 20D6 negative energy damage (which, if you hadn't noticed, mobs are either flat out immune to (undead/construct) or not resistant to at all),
A choice of being 25% incorporeal, having a boost to stats which are useful (most looking here at lich with it's int/con), free heavy fortification and lifeshield effects, Damage reduction,
Or better yet, show me any PRE which gives those bonuses and isn't Pale Master.

Each PRE has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages, most PRE's require crappy feats to be able to qualify in the first place, like ninja spy, which requires dodge. The barbarian has it's drawback build into the abilities it gets, he harms himself every hit he does as soon as he uses his frenzy or death frenzy (doesn't matter to much with the slew of HP most sport though). A Favored soul has the disadvantage of giving up any resemblance to stealth when he goes Angel of Vengeance. The Pale Master has the disadvantage of taking increased light damage.

The 4x on a vamp is a bit rough though, I wouldn't mind seeing that modified down to 2x to be the same with the other forms.

Again I'd have to ask, do you play a PM or have you ever all the way through level 20?

[Emili]

You are also aware that a 'true' undead has a - (dash) as con score right? Meaning no modifier at all, all those fancy little con boosts you have don't mean jack when there's nothing to boost in the first place. meaning you'd most likely lose a big chunk of HP whenever you go undead (as in, you have 20D8 (undead HD)+Items+feats)
'true' undead form: 160 hit dice, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life. = roughly 307 HP
half undead/current: 80 Hit die, 20 heroic toughness, 22 toughness, 10 draconic vitality, 20 toughness item, 45 shroudcraft HP, 30 greater false life, 26 con standing = roughly 387 HP, which can be boosted further as much as you can raise your con score with rage, shipbuffs, higher tomes, etc.

Also, show me where a Radiant servant gets boosts to stats, undispelable deathblock, a pretty much free attack they can use at range hitting for 20D6 negative energy damage (which, if you hadn't noticed, mobs are either flat out immune to (undead/construct) or not resistant to at all),
A choice of being 25% incorporeal, having a boost to stats which are useful (most looking here at lich with it's int/con), free heavy fortification and lifeshield effects, Damage reduction,
Or better yet, show me any PRE which gives those bonuses and isn't Pale Master.

Each PRE has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages, most PRE's require crappy feats to be able to qualify in the first place, like ninja spy, which requires dodge. The barbarian has it's drawback build into the abilities it gets, he harms himself every hit he does as soon as he uses his frenzy or death frenzy (doesn't matter to much with the slew of HP most sport though). A Favored soul has the disadvantage of giving up any resemblance to stealth when he goes Angel of Vengeance. The Pale Master has the disadvantage of taking increased light damage.

The 4x on a vamp is a bit rough though, I wouldn't mind seeing that modified down to 2x to be the same with the other forms.

Actually I can kill my barb under frenzie plus death frenzie in massive cleaving doing more damage to her than the mob... bout 600 of 800hp worth self-inflicted before it runs out if I've enough mob around to spew it bout. ;)

PM sla's are actually totally free in comparison... and they pretty high powered for their sport seeing that items increase it. I cycle necrotic blast and bolt a lot.

[Forgeborn]

Again I'd have to ask, do you play a PM or have you ever all the way through level 20?

Yes, I did, it's in the freezer for several months now because I don't like her, any other questions?

[The_Brave2]

I know that +2 DC is huge i was pointing out that you complain about lowers DC's and ignore 1 way to level the playing field in one cast since enervation is 1d4 levels and every level carries -1 to saves so if you're unlucky you're still 1 behind, if you're lucky you are 2 above.

PM can cast enervation also, along with energy drain, since the SLA for enervation costs too much sp for a long cooldown it isnt really viable, especially since most necro spells you will be doing will be AOE ones and the occasional quick finger with an energy drain before it.

But ending that discussion, I agree that PM is dificult to level due to light damage, where I think that there should be vulnerability to light damage, I also think there should be vulnerability to heals.

So possibly lower the amount you get hit for from light damage, so it would hit for about double of normal spells hitting you, but also add enemy divines to heal you to death, granted not for much more than a normal spell would hit you for, but some varity would be nice.

Also, on your comment about immunities, PM gets much nicer immunities, I would LOVE to have immunity to knockdown and stuns at cap on my AM, thats pretty much the only thing that can kill that beast. :D

[The_Brave2]

Again I'd have to ask, do you play a PM or have you ever all the way through level 20?

Was your last life a PM? otherwise you are calling other people inexperienced on the subject for only leveling as a PM untill you got your first form at lv.6.. which is not any considerable PM experience at all :rolleyes:

[Orratti]

And what exactly is a RS Cleric vulnerable to that has the same capacity of self healing aura's...and on top of that their aura and healing blasts uses Turn attempts and not SP.

Simply put, the 2x-4x damage is unbalanced, it needs to be toned down some.

As someone else pointed out, not even actual undead take as much light damage as PM's in form do, and that is utterly ********, we should be taking no more than slightly less damage than a real undead would, not more.

And in form you already sacrifice your racial traits, so we lose out on that as well.

Either give us full and not partial undead traits while in form or reduce the light damage some. So in vampire form we would have DR/Silver at least. And Liches get some other benefits as well besides what we get in form.


I can't find anything to argue with here. You aren't someone who has no experience asking for things to be made easier. You've been around a while so you should know what you're talking about. I do believe though that a light specced divine can put out 300+ damage searing lights to undead or at least darn close to it. Whether enemy casters should be able to do that, some probably should, most probably not. Giving full undead traits no. Undead cannot change form to avoid their weakneses. Pale masters can.

I don't play many casters and I haven't played a PM. So far they seem like weaksauce warforged to me but until I play one I'm truly not able to judge. The only impressions I've had about them is they might make great soloers but having them in a party is a pain unless you don't have a healer. Their self healing isn't as good as it should be if they are going to be immune to a healer. I've seen too many fall flat on their faces maybe because of the exact thing you are complaining about. What they do to blast away in epics that warrants a 100 page nerf thread I have no idea. I guess those epic guys forgot to pack searing light or any other light spells in their spell books or prayers.

[Truga]

PM can cast enervation also

I don't even have enervation memorized on my PM, too many useful level 4 spells already. Energy drain costs a couple extra SP, for double effect anyway!

Edit: If someone confirmed PMs already getting double damage from searing light and the likes then sure, remove the extra damage. It's currently the one thing that threatens my pale master though, everything else is just laughable in the face of ~40 self healing per 2 seconds in ticks, and 500+ HP. And once I get my tod ring with exceptional CON on it, and my mineral2 helmet, and an epic envenomed cloak it's going to be 600+ HP...

Literally the only thing that threatens me in quests are divine enemies and me not paying attention to my HP because I'm just too hard to kill. I literally die more often farming favor or other such low-level activities, because I never look at my HP and it depletes eventually in some longer quests, because I don't notice the aura gone. In epics, where I keep an eye on it, the only threat is 2+ divines spamming light spells at me.

I say keep the vulnerability. My first life on this wiz was something like 100+HP at level 6, 250+HP at level 12, and I didn't even have any twink gear back then. That's plenty to survive. Maybe tone it down a little, so people that choose meatbags can compete. Or maybe tie it to level. Zombie is a **** form anyway, have it have 25% vulnerability, vamp/wraith 50%, and lich the full 100% since it's also the most powerful form anyway.

[Veriden]

This statement tells me you obviously do not play PM's, so why are you even in this thread?

Funny thing is, there are actually quite a few, and you are usually being bombarded by multiples at once. It's excessive, and there is no save or resistance item that will help when you are getting slammed that bad.

IMO, this is just a typical example of Turbine DEV extremity.

As far as the x's amount, I guess I was thinking....

normal 25
1x 50
2x 75
3x 100
4x 125







you may need some math lessons...Anything multiplied by 1 = original sum
1x 25, 2x 50, 3x 75, 4x 100.
Quite frankly I dislike pale masters, and the weakness balances their strengths. Nothing is with out weakness in order of balance. The Pale master's is mere more physical than other classes.

[delsoboss]

But ending that discussion, I agree that PM is dificult to level due to light damage, where I think that there should be vulnerability to light damage, I also think there should be vulnerability to heals.

So possibly lower the amount you get hit for from light damage, so it would hit for about double of normal spells hitting you, but also add enemy divines to heal you to death, granted not for much more than a normal spell would hit you for, but some varity would be nice.

As i have said to Truga one problem i can see is that with the current implementation PMs are simply immune to heals so maybe divine mobs are already trying to heal us to death (again) getting "immune" floating over our heads.
I'll be ok with something like raise dead (or equivalents) dispelling the forms but by the time they give raise dead to mobs and the AI learns to handle it i think the payerbase will have other troubles.
Maybe with the toning down of the light damage arcane mobs can start carrying undeath to death.

[Emili]

I'm on my first TR and actually was planning on sacrificing Mental Toughness for my level 3 TR feat...which I already actually did.

I know we get a free feat swap, but I am not sure which other feat I would wanna live without until level 18.

I do not know what other feats you have at the moment. I do know that lich form is the sweet spot of a PM. Vamp is just not worth it...

To be honest is not so bad that lvl 18 and 20 are the best areas of the PrE. I mean look at kensie .... Kensie II is most the gain of that PrE leaving Kensie III kind of meh. Tempest likewise, Kotc is best go full likewise AA or assasin - yet thier middle tiers less desirable... None of the PrE's are really uniform in scope tiers. I really think wizard and PM does it right in scope outside the vamp form seems the only issue within it.

Level 12 Vamp or Wraith either is 1ap Wraith is better until they address the x4 on vamp is all.

[The_Brave2]

I don't even have enervation memorized on my PM, too many useful level 4 spells already. Energy drain costs a couple extra SP, for double effect anyway!

I agree, iv been debating dropping it to have full time firewall for awhile now. but it is useful for those high fort mobs that need more than just a energy drain. it is defiantly not required, but useful.

Taking my color out of my quote is cruel :D

[The_Brave2]

As i have said to Truga one problem i can see is that with the current implementation PMs are simply immune to heals so maybe divine mobs are already trying to heal us to death (again) getting "immune" floating over our heads.
I'll be ok with something like raise dead (or equivalents) dispelling the forms but by the time they give raise dead to mobs and the AI learns to handle it i think the payerbase will have other troubles.
Maybe with the toning down of the light damage arcane mobs can start carrying undeath to death.

Raise Dead to enemy mobs.. I like it!!! a boss monster being able to raise the trash mob would be FANTASTIC :D not being sarcastic here at all btw.

It would make it even more of a rush to kill the divines in a mob, and if you cant, suffering the consequences, I would /sign that.

Having it dispell forms... i dunno about that, seems like it would be spammed and make PM's useless, so I disagree on that front.

Undead to death would be interesting, can PM's be death warded at all since they fixed the problem with neg damage not hitting them though it? Not counting deathblock items, just asking about the spell

[Truga]

Raise Dead to enemy mobs.. I like it!!! a boss monster being able to raise the trash mob would be FANTASTIC :D not being sarcastic here at all btw.

It would make it even more of a rush to kill the divines in a mob, and if you cant, suffering the consequences, I would /sign that.

Having it dispell forms... i dunno about that, seems like it would be spammed and make PM's useless, so I disagree on that front.

Undead to death would be interesting, can PM's be death warded at all since they fixed the problem with neg damage not hitting them though it? Not counting deathblock items, just asking about the spell

I don't think deathblock would help against undeath to death. Also I'd love to see enemy divines using Turn (Mostly dominate, I guess, since they're mostly evil). It'd be awesome if the PM in your group suddenly used FoD on your cleric and then proceeded to wail your melees. :V

Edit: Yeah, standing in a mass heal with a PM should make you die. Friendly or not. None of that immune ****.

[wax_on_wax_off]

And I don't have the best-equipped PM (only 100 HP at level 8),

100 HP at level 8 and you complain about being 2 shotted?

Let me add this up.

32=8*4 for wizard levels
20=heroic vitality
16=8*2 base con of 14 (worst case scenario for a first life drow)
16=8*2 bears endurance (not possible to get a +5 item)
10=toughness
20=toughness enhancements
10=false life item
=124

Additional options ...
10=improved false life
10=pirate cove necklace
8=+2 con tome

Finally ...
11=aid potion (temporary)
13=false life (spell, temporary)

No level 8 wizard should have only 100 HP, this isn't a problem with game mechanics but a problem with your build.

[The_Brave2]

I don't think deathblock would help against undeath to death. Also I'd love to see enemy divines using Turn (Mostly dominate, I guess, since they're mostly evil). It'd be awesome if the PM in your group suddenly used FoD on your cleric and then proceeded to wail your melees. :V

Edit: Yeah, standing in a mass heal with a PM should make you die. Friendly or not. None of that immune ****.

Adding friendly fire to the game would have alot larger problems than mass heals killing your PM. lol.

interesting, does anything stop undead to death? I guess being a WF PM would be worth it then since WF are immune to it.. i think.. I dont beleive I have ever ran into an undead WF outside of questing with them lol

[Razcar]

If you add to that the fact that there is not a single other Pre that risks being one/two shotted on a regular basis and you have the complaint in a nutshell. You seem to have forgotten to mention that no other non-healer PrE gets powerful self-healing.

And as a price you take more damage from one spell (ok, two with Sunburst) while in a toggable form. For getting quick and powerful self-healing in the rest of the game (and all the other bonuses, of course). Seems you are complaining that you didn't get a golden spoon for your russian caviar.

[pHo3nix]

I dont see a problem with it especially as almost nothing uses light damage.

Nothing uses light damage? Are we playing the same game? And no, i still haven't a PM, but mobs are spamming light spells everywhere. Not saying it's good or bad, just don't say that nothing uses searing light :)

[The_Brave2]

Nothing uses light damage? Are we playing the same game? And no, i still haven't a PM, but mobs are spamming light spells everywhere. Not saying it's good or bad, just don't say that nothing uses searing light :)

Iv already been correct enough times, I was unaware that so many quests had the light damage, being as I dont notice it as an AM.

[Drekisen]

Iv already been correct enough times, I was unaware that so many quests had the light damage, being as I dont notice it as an AM.

Which still makes me wonder why you are even commenting in a PM based thread?

[The_Brave2]

Which still makes me wonder why you are even commenting in a PM based thread?


Because my knowledge of the game and casters is still substantial. How about less personal attacks and more attacks based on facts that dont include 25 x1 = 50. mk? -_-

Edit: Iv played a PM at cap, seemed silly to level as one tho, so I do know a thing or two about PM's.

[Drekisen]

I do not know what other feats you have at the moment. I do know that lich form is the sweet spot of a PM. Vamp is just not worth it...

To be honest is not so bad that lvl 18 and 20 are the best areas of the PrE. I mean look at kensie .... Kensie II is most the gain of that PrE leaving Kensie III kind of meh. Tempest likewise, Kotc is best go full likewise AA or assasin - yet thier middle tiers less desirable... None of the PrE's are really uniform in scope tiers. I really think wizard and PM does it right in scope outside the vamp form seems the only issue within it.

Level 12 Vamp or Wraith either is 1ap Wraith is better until they address the x4 on vamp is all.


The funny thing is...when I was first making this Wiz, it was well before F2P came out and the PrE's and everything........I was actually at level 17, close to level 18 when I got back to this toon and specc'ed into PM.....so in my previous life I only played a PM from level 18-20...I was already at the sweet spot.

I'm learning slowly what's working and what's not, I knew the first thing I needed to do was acquire a greater void lore and Superior Nihil II clikies immediately so my Aura could heal me better, I can crit up to 14 a tick now, which is pretty nice.

I gotta go get some inflict potions too from the guy in House J.

I knew I would be downsizing some from a Lich with an Epic Robe of Shadow at 20 to a level 6 Zombie, I just wasn't expecting to be quite so vulnerable to the light rays.

[Drekisen]

Because my knowledge of the game and casters is still substantial. How about less personal attacks and more attacks based on facts that dont include 25 x1 = 50. mk? -_-

Edit: Iv played a PM at cap, seemed silly to level as one tho, so I do know a thing or two about PM's.

So you still don't actually know anything about leveling one.

hmmmmmm

And for someone who wants less personal attacks you sure aren't afraid to use them.....sorry about the math booboo......I believe it was you who said hardly anything in the game uses light spells.

After you actually level a PM I'll consider your input as useful.

[The_Brave2]

So you still don't actually know anything about leveling one.

hmmmmmm


Sure, I dont know anything from experience, but what experience do you have? lv.1-6 and 18-20? and the first thing you do is 'OMG NERF PL0X'

If you read my posts Alot of what I say is in favor of your suggestion, so dont be so quick to be hostile.

Another thing, your attitude needs a nerf. -_-

Edit: regardless of whether you value my opinion, My thoughts on the matter are still valid, you just dont want to accept certain points and point to what you consider to be 'experience' to invalidate my arguments.

[Truga]

Nothing uses light damage? Are we playing the same game? And no, i still haven't a PM, but mobs are spamming light spells everywhere. Not saying it's good or bad, just don't say that nothing uses searing light :)

I think some dudes around the game have had light damage spells added to them, but yeah, there always was quite plenty of them from about level 5 on.

In endgame, however, you only see them in some epics and running with devils (which isn't even endgame, really), which makes the vulnerability practically a non-issue for capped casters.

That's why I said, maybe scale it with levels. 25% on zombie form, 50% on wraith/vamp, 100% on lich. By the time you get lich, you can probably handle getting ray'd every now and then. Wraith is an awesome form until then, and I don't even know if +50% light damage would actually counter the fact that you get a stacking 25% miss chance. And that's ignoring all the other effects you get.

As for the undeath to death spell, I think the effect it does is, it just finishes the job for you. Undead are already dead, they just haven't had their soul separated from their material plane counterpart yet (or have had a replacement installed, in the case of raising undead minions). Undeath to death just finishes the job, and isn't really a death effect, so it shouldn't be blocked by deathblock. Should work the same with WF since apparently they also have a soul as living constructs.

That said, wizards have a high progression on a will save, so that shouldn't be too huge of an issue. Dying every now and then due to throwing a 1 can happen to anyone, this just adds another such thing. :P

[Drekisen]

Sure, I dont know anything from experience, but what experience do you have? lv.1-6 and 18-20? and the first thing you do is 'OMG NERF PL0X'

If you read my posts Alot of what I say is in favor of your suggestion, so dont be so quick to be hostile.

Another thing, your attitude needs a nerf. -_-

LOL...whatever.....the first thing you did was come in my thread and spread a blatant piece of misinformation, then come off as knowing about PM's because u played one at cap.

Guess what, halfway thru level 6 experience and 18-20 experience playing a PM is a heck of a lot more than playing one at cap.


Nope, never played a PM, never will. Sure, i might be wrong on that count, but still... 'omg im taking dmg, stop that please' is kinda... lol.

plus I am wondering about this, I thought you said you never played a PM?

Oh, and FYI, I ACTUALLY HAVE leveled a WF'ed AM all the way from level 1-20, aside from the occasional rusty there is nothing that comes close to making a WF'ed as vulnerable as a PM to a light spell.

[The_Brave2]

LOL...whatever.....the first thing you did was come in my thread and spread a blatant piece of misinformation, then come off as knowing about PM's because u played one at cap.

Guess what, halfway thru level 6 experience and 18-20 experience playing a PM is a heck of a lot more than playing one at cap.



plus I am wondering about this, I thought you said you never played a PM?

I was refrencing never playing a PM leveling, my capped PM doesnt get played anymore, hence his absence from my sig.

Leveling is 5% of the game for me ant at cap is 95%, so you can understand how light damage wouldnt mean as much to me as some1 that just constantly TR's.

Sure, I was wrong about the light damage, atleast I own up to it when I am wrong :)

As per the 1-6 and 18-20 being more experience, it depends on what you are planning to do. as I said, endgame is what I do, obviously the same is not for you.

[Moltier]

Please dont ask for more buffs. PMs are already very powerfull. Anymore buffs will result a hit by a nerfbat.
Im happy with this kind of weakness. At least PMs have something to fear.

[The_Brave2]

Oh, and FYI, I ACTUALLY HAVE leveled a WF'ed AM all the way from level 1-20, aside from the occasional rusty there is nothing that comes close to making a WF'ed as vulnerable as a PM to a light spell.

As I have said, the weakness is lower DC's on a WF AM, and that is more applicable at Cap. I still think that PM should be vulnerable to light damage, but not as much as right now.

Also, id appreciate you stop editing your posts without saying Edit on them, makes me think I keep missing things when I look back after posting. :D

I guess my question to you is:


Why should PM get all these benefits and not have some huge shortcoming?
PM healing over time is insanly nice for leveling, makes it more efficient to heal up inbetween fights
PM's get basically free DPS spells while leveling, again, why no significant downside?
It is already so easy to level as a caster, If you compare your vulnerability to a class without self healing, how much of a handicap is taking double light damage (assuming they do fix the numbers to a x2 in zomby x3 in vamp)

[Drekisen]

As I have said, the weakness is lower DC's on a WF AM, and that is more applicable at Cap. I still think that PM should be vulnerable to light damage, but not as much as right now.

Also, id appreciate you stop editing your posts without saying Edit on them, makes me think I keep missing things when I look back after posting. :D

I guess my question to you is:


Why should PM get all these benefits and not have some huge shortcoming?
PM healing over time is insanly nice for leveling, makes it more efficient to heal up inbetween fights
PM's get basically free DPS spells while leveling, again, why no significant downside?
It is already so easy to level as a caster, If you compare your vulnerability to a class without self healing, how much of a handicap is taking double light damage (assuming they do fix the numbers to a x2 in zomby x3 in vamp)


I'll tell you one HUGE reason, because all the stuff we get by way of Undead form immunities is EASILY obtained through items/potions/buffs for any other class.

Give me the capability to get a resist 150-200 light damage cloak by the time I hit Vampire Form and I will shut up.

Don't read my post right away BTW, ever, I edit a lot before it's the final version and I like to actually see it on the thread page completed while I am editing....it's usually to fix grammar errors.

[Drekisen]

It is already so easy to level as a caster, If you compare your vulnerability to a class without self healing, how much of a handicap is taking double light damage (assuming they do fix the numbers to a x2 in zomby x3 in vamp)
[/list]

With a hireling healbot, it's pretty much comical leveling any NON-PM...I'd say PM is one of the hardest to level actually in comparison......because if you get into something really dire you don't have anyone there to toss you a quick 150+ heal.....your basically on your own.

P.S. sincerely TY for not being a WF'ed minded plank with your retort. :)

[Dragavon]

I really am all for being more vulnerable to light damage while in PM form.....but it's crazy as it stands now, 2x-4x damage taken is simply too much.

Make it 1x-2x........seriously, player character PM's are the equivalent of red named dungeon bosses in power....maybe not mega HP-wise, but we shouldn't be equivalent to the trash.......you can't one shot those bosses unless you are doing the content way under your level....why is it we should suffer that fate.

I know I can just turn off form for situations like this and use my hireling.....but the damage taken seems a bit excessive IMO.

I know use tactics, and I do, but when you walk into a room with 2-3 casters spamming light rays...you don't even have time to think....much less react.

Pale masters are insanely powerful. They have a weak spot.

Get over it :rolleyes:

[Forgeborn]

I'll tell you one HUGE reason, because all the stuff we get by way of Undead form immunities is EASILY obtained through items/potions/buffs for any other class.


Okay, at level 6 I'd like to see:
A +2 stat increase in con, which stacks with enhancement bonuses, ship buffs, store pots, and tomes
Heavy fortification
DR 5/slashing
An Aura that heals us of any sort

At level 12 I'd like to see;
A way to get +2 to enchantment spells, which stacks with a greater spell focus item
A +2 increase to strength and charisma, which stacks with enhancement bonuses, ship buffs, store pots, and tomes
A way to get -25% on spells threat generated

OR
A way to become 25% incorporeal
A way to get +20 to move silently

At level 18 I'd like to see:
A way to get +4 constitution which stacks with ship buffs, enhancements, store pots, and tomes

Feel free to use any of the in-game consumables, spell, or piece of equipment

[Drekisen]

Okay, at level 6 I'd like to see:
A +2 stat increase in con, which stacks with enhancement bonuses, ship buffs, store pots, and tomes
Heavy fortification
DR 5/slashing
An Aura that heals us of any sort

At level 12 I'd like to see;
A way to get +2 to enchantment spells, which stacks with a greater spell focus item
A +2 increase to strength and charisma, which stacks with enhancement bonuses, ship buffs, store pots, and tomes
A way to get -25% on spells threat generated

OR
A way to become 25% incorporeal
A way to get +20 to move silently

At level 18 I'd like to see:
A way to get +4 constitution which stacks with ship buffs, enhancements, store pots, and tomes

Feel free to use any of the in-game consumables, spell, or piece of equipment

Seeing as how PM's are on their own for heals, and have the insane vulnerability to light damage no other PrE faces even remotely closely, I really fail to see your point.

[Drekisen]

Pale masters are insanely powerful. They have a weak spot.

Get over it :rolleyes:

So is every other class and their PrE minus the light vulnerability, what were you trying to say here?

[dlsidhe]

Speaking as a leveling PM, here's the issue with the damage multiplier on light spells - PMs in form already take the increased damage die from the light spell. On Searing Light, that's a weighted 1d6 per caster level in form vs. taking a weighted 1d8 per 2 caster levels out of form. To put in perspective using a CR8 Wight Priest, that's taking 8d3+24 vs 4d4+16, which is already a considerable difference in damage. In Zombie form, that translates to 16d3+48 vs 4d4+16. With no save. And no way to mitigate. In addition, the damage gets doubled on ANY light spell, which means a CR6 Nimbus of Light turns from a 1d4+10 to a 2d4+20...and this is a spell which has no player benefit against undead.

I have no issue with a PM taking more damage from light spells, but the degree to which the damage is amplified is totally ludicrous, particularly given that standard undead don't take a multiplier on light damage (otherwise, I'd be decimating Delera's on my FvS). Ramp it up 110-125%, sure. Maybe even do the full 200% on vamp form. But the damage is currently disproportional to the benefits of form while leveling.

[voodoogroves]

I disagree with going PM on a WF.... you might as well go AM if you are going to loose the +1 to DC from drow.. Better self healing and SLA's are well worth it. :D

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are a fair number of WF PMs who disagree with you. The flexibility in various quests to drop out of form, etc. is pretty nifty. Your theorhetical analysis doesn't match the actual playing experience of those who advocate the WF PM, and that's cool.

[Ertay]

It was probably stated already, but if not, I'll do so again for emphasis:

Searing Light, the most used light spell by enemy divines, does already do double damage to PMs in all forms, because they are considered undead now. Whoever thought having a vulnerability for light damage on a vampire would be fine flavor wise (and it certainly is) did obviously not think this through, because 4x damage x2 is actually a whopping 8x damage from searing light. With this change, a spell that is barely noticed by anyone else turns into a devastating damage attack against PMs, which i feel is a bit much.

[Forgeborn]

Seeing as how PM's are on their own for heals, and have the insane vulnerability to light damage no other PrE faces even remotely closely, I really fail to see your point.

So, in short; you can't back up the claim you make about "all the stuff you get by way of Undead form immunities is EASILY obtained through items/potions/buffs for any other class."

First you give that EXACT argument as a response to "Why should PM get all these benefits and not have some huge shortcoming?", and then, when I ask you to back up your claim that "all the stuff is easily obtained through buffs/pots/items" you suddenly bring the light vulnerability up as a defensive argument for it not being available in pot/buff form.

Pick a side, and stick to it, make claims you can back up instead of claiming falsehoods and lies.

Ohh, and 'weak spots'; Against the demon queen, part II, the actual raid;
That monk in your party, what's he gonna do against the queen while she's standing all the way over on those platforms? Throw piddly shurikens at her? Which in most cases will be ignored by her damage reduction.

That radiant servant you brought up before? How will he use his PRE on the offense? he can burst against the plethora of undead at low levels, but at cap, it's pretty much useless except as another 'mass cure light wounds', and it runs of a VERY limited resource, namely turn attempts, unlike the pale master who gets a few spell like abilities which he can pretty much just cycle through and rely on the much more easily replenished resource of HP.

That Frenzied berserker? How will he use his PRE defensively? he just can't, it's a purely offensive PRE. The pale master can throw up a shroud of the wraith, and enjoy his 25% incorporeality, or he can toss up zombie, and enjoy a nice little DR 5/slash, or possibly even lich, who gets life shield build in.

Pale master on the other hand has both offensive abilities build into the PRE (necro touch/bolt/blast), and defensive capabilities (lich life shield, damage reduction, in-corporeality, extra HP from con increases). That, combined with the negative energy spells which allow for full self heals (and the aura that allows a continues healing of useful proportions for a minor cost in sp) makes the Pale Master Prestige path one of the most powerful prestige lines currently implemented.

Every other class has it's weaknesses, be it the lack of healing, harming itself, having massive trouble with stat distribution, or being focused to much on one particular enemy, the pale master has few, but the most prevalent is deadly, and used a fair amount by enemy casters, as it should be, they shouldn't be getting away without weaknesses.

And you have time to think, it's called "Get out of the darn room around a corner, and finger em one by one instead of standing in the freaking center of room with a huge buls-eye painted on your ass", or possibly "stop running up front with your D4 HD while the barbarian with his D12 is much better suited to wade in before you and take the hits"

For the rest, you are given the ability to be on your own for heals, you can also rely on clerics and fvs, who can carry harm with them to heal you(granted, fvs usually don't, just to little spells for 6th level), pretty much the same as the barbarian has to do. Or you can stock up on those lovely inflict pots, and chug those as health pots. A frenzies berserker barbarian has pretty much 2 choices on the other hand, rely on a cleric/fvs, or chug pots until he's full again. a PM is given the chance of providing his own heals.

Next, the ability to not have to rely on a stupid piece of AI named 'hireling' is both a curse and a boon. Hirelings are prone to find the one spot in a trap where they will die, and pull a ton of aggro that they can't handle, and thus die, leaving whoever is controlling him to fend for himself, on the other hand, as you said, you can't rely on a quick heal when you're low, because you're not healed by standard positive energy like everyone else, for that reason, I'd love to see hirelings choosing both harm, and heal, in their spell selection, and using the one that is appropriate for the target that needs to be healed.

I can agree with you though that the amount of damage is out of line. In my opinion, any spell that has a different effect on living creatures then on undead creatures should count you as ALIVE, since you're merely 'shrouded' in negative energy, and not a true undead. That would limit the damage of searing light and some other spells already, and it would be more manageable, next I'd like to see vampire put at the same *2 modifier that the other forms have, taking 4x as much damage from any type of spell is grossly out of line.

All in all; Pale masters are powerful, but they have a weakness, either learn to deal with that weakness, or choose another path to walk, as it is with every class and prestige enhancement. Nobody forces you to level as a pale master, or even use your forms until you reach the higher levels, you have choices, and the amount of pale masters I see in everyday play, means that many have learned to deal with the light damage as it is, without complaining, without whining, they accept it, and still happily play their demi-gods to their hearts content.

[Khurse]

PM/Light Damage interaction is fine.

It's adds some amusement levelling up, and is largely a non factor at endgame.
Although Aspe did get hit for 617 HPs of damage by Horoth in a hard TOD (and died)

It was entertaining I guess. Guildies laughed.

Actually they still laugh...bastards.

But yeah, I've levelled up a couple of times as a PM. The light damage is mildly annoying, but that's about it.

[Uska]

My pm is fine and please stop with the awful font colors there is no need to gouge people's eyes as you always doing

[Drekisen]

I can agree with you though that the amount of damage is out of line. In my opinion, any spell that has a different effect on living creatures then on undead creatures should count you as ALIVE, since you're merely 'shrouded' in negative energy, and not a true undead. That would limit the damage of searing light and some other spells already, and it would be more manageable, next I'd like to see vampire put at the same *2 modifier that the other forms have, taking 4x as much damage from any type of spell is grossly out of line.



And this is all I was freekin saying to begin with, but no, I have the attitude when in reality half the people who responded to this have never even leveled a PM and/or realize how the light damage vulnerability is actually applied currently.

Yeah, I'm going to have an attitude when people are blaming me for something I didn't even do.

Everyone who cared to bash me in this thread made it out like I came on here whining that it's shouldn't be there at all, and I said from the start it needs to be adjusted not removed.

Yeah, people do tend to get chips on their shoulders fairly easily when all they have to talk to is a pack of wolves.

[Drekisen]

My pm is fine and please stop with the awful font colors there is no need to gouge people's eyes as you always doing

Wow, I'll just jump on the bash the person with a problem bandwagon here.....PUT ME ON BLOCK OR GET SOME NEW EYES

[Truga]

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are a fair number of WF PMs who disagree with you. The flexibility in various quests to drop out of form, etc. is pretty nifty. Your theorhetical analysis doesn't match the actual playing experience of those who advocate the WF PM, and that's cool.

This. This this this.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. WF PM is ridiculous.

1. You get WF durability and then stack lich durability on top of it. It's hilariously overpowered*.

2. Ridiculous hp, aura ticking every 2s for ~40 average, lich form and con-op temp hp procs, and other such goodies make your actual effective hp possibly as high or higher than the highest hp barbs have. All for 100sp for lich form and another 100 for quickened, extended, etc death aura and lesser death aura. You won't even need the lesser most of the time, but I just like the extra bit of healing from it in some quests.

3. If, at any time during a quest, you feel like you might have a problem with light spells (say, running with devils), you drop form and roll with reconstruct. Yeah, the slight drop in DCs hurts, but it's not too harsh at levels you need this.

4. It's a robot. That's a plus in my book, not many RPGs let you play a robot. And it's an undead robot? Can you even imagine that!

* Let's do some HP breakdown:
+20 Heroic durability = 20
+80 20 levels of wizard = 100
+100 20 Base con = 200
+20 +2 con tome (you should pick this up for 1750 favour) = 220
+60 +6 con item = 280
+20 toughness item = 300
+40 superior false life = 340
+22 toughness feat = 362
+20 +2 con from enhancements = 382
+40 4x toughness enhancements = 422
+20 +2 con from rage = 442
+20 +2 con from ship = 462
+40 +2 con +20 hp from yugo pot = 502
+40 +4 con form lich form = 542
+20 +2 exceptional con on your ToD ring = 562
+45 greensteel HP item = 607

All of this isn't too hard to obtain. One GS item, and one upgraded ToD ring comes with enough grind. Hardest is quite possibly favour for yugo pot? Superior false life, toughness and con+6 all come on a single docent, that's not too hard to obtain.

Then there's:
+3 tome and another +1 exceptional con = 627
+4 tome (if you're very lucky) and an epic envenomed cloak = 647

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but it's hilarious as it is... When I mention my wizard has 500 hp standing with no ship CON, people flip out. When I mention I can still get 100 more with a little bit of effort, they tell me I'm a liar and should stop trolling :D

[Ugumagre]

My conclusion:

I will never ever roll a Pale Master. They are TOTALLY nerfed and are not worth a party slot.
If I ever put a LFM, my first question will be "are you a PM?". When yes, I will answer "GIIIIIMMMPPP" and refuse him.

Thank you for posting, for a new guy like me, it is good to know some simple facts.

[Zerenety]

.

Maybe the zombie shroud is for you? yknow, eating brains and all that. Might catch you some points ^^

naaw, im jking ^^ but seriously....! Naaaaaaw, jking again. Srsly!

Eye for an eye.

Your argument is invalid

[Dragavon]

So is every other class and their PrE minus the light vulnerability, what were you trying to say here?

You dont get it? :confused:

PM is very powerful, its only a fair trade they have a weakness. If Turbine where to reduce a PM's weakness to light dmg then they should also reduce their power.

You are crying like a baby. Learn to play your PM, and shut it :rolleyes:

[voodoogroves]

This. This this this.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. WF PM is ridiculous.

1. You get WF durability and then stack lich durability on top of it. It's hilariously overpowered*.

2. Ridiculous hp, aura ticking every 2s for ~40 average, lich form and con-op temp hp procs, and other such goodies make your actual effective hp possibly as high or higher than the highest hp barbs have. All for 100sp for lich form and another 100 for quickened, extended, etc death aura and lesser death aura. You won't even need the lesser most of the time, but I just like the extra bit of healing from it in some quests.

3. If, at any time during a quest, you feel like you might have a problem with light spells (say, running with devils), you drop form and roll with reconstruct. Yeah, the slight drop in DCs hurts, but it's not too harsh at levels you need this.

4. It's a robot. That's a plus in my book, not many RPGs let you play a robot. And it's an undead robot? Can you even imagine that!

* Let's do some HP breakdown:
+20 Heroic durability = 20
+80 20 levels of wizard = 100
+100 20 Base con = 200
+20 +2 con tome (you should pick this up for 1750 favour) = 220
+60 +6 con item = 280
+20 toughness item = 300
+40 superior false life = 340
+22 toughness feat = 362
+20 +2 con from enhancements = 382
+40 4x toughness enhancements = 422
+20 +2 con from rage = 442
+20 +2 con from ship = 462
+40 +2 con +20 hp from yugo pot = 502
+40 +4 con form lich form = 542
+20 +2 exceptional con on your ToD ring = 562
+45 greensteel HP item = 607

All of this isn't too hard to obtain. One GS item, and one upgraded ToD ring comes with enough grind. Hardest is quite possibly favour for yugo pot? Superior false life, toughness and con+6 all come on a single docent, that's not too hard to obtain.

Then there's:
+3 tome and another +1 exceptional con = 627
+4 tome (if you're very lucky) and an epic envenomed cloak = 647

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but it's hilarious as it is... When I mention my wizard has 500 hp standing with no ship CON, people flip out. When I mention I can still get 100 more with a little bit of effort, they tell me I'm a liar and should stop trolling :D

Out of form you're just a WF Wizard, and everyone knows how horrible those are.

[Palantyr]

You know, I've leveled up a pale master six times now. Yeah light damage can hit pretty hard in some forms. There's a simple solution, if you're not able to handle the damage in a certain quests don't use the form. I can't think of one quest, leveling up or at cap, where not using a form has caused me or my group to be unable to complete.

[Kakashi67]

What Drag said.

And yes, I played a PM to cap.

Deal with the damage or go AM.

Although I suspect we'll see another rant if you reach 12 with wraith/vampire forms.

[Kakashi67]

Out of form you're just a WF Wizard, and everyone knows how horrible those are.


This. This this this.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. WF PM is ridiculous.

1. You get WF durability and then stack lich durability on top of it. It's hilariously overpowered*.

2. Ridiculous hp, aura ticking every 2s for ~40 average, lich form and con-op temp hp procs, and other such goodies make your actual effective hp possibly as high or higher than the highest hp barbs have. All for 100sp for lich form and another 100 for quickened, extended, etc death aura and lesser death aura. You won't even need the lesser most of the time, but I just like the extra bit of healing from it in some quests.

3. If, at any time during a quest, you feel like you might have a problem with light spells (say, running with devils), you drop form and roll with reconstruct. Yeah, the slight drop in DCs hurts, but it's not too harsh at levels you need this.

4. It's a robot. That's a plus in my book, not many RPGs let you play a robot. And it's an undead robot? Can you even imagine that!

* Let's do some HP breakdown:
+20 Heroic durability = 20
+80 20 levels of wizard = 100
+100 20 Base con = 200
+20 +2 con tome (you should pick this up for 1750 favour) = 220
+60 +6 con item = 280
+20 toughness item = 300
+40 superior false life = 340
+22 toughness feat = 362
+20 +2 con from enhancements = 382
+40 4x toughness enhancements = 422
+20 +2 con from rage = 442
+20 +2 con from ship = 462
+40 +2 con +20 hp from yugo pot = 502
+40 +4 con form lich form = 542
+20 +2 exceptional con on your ToD ring = 562
+45 greensteel HP item = 607

All of this isn't too hard to obtain. One GS item, and one upgraded ToD ring comes with enough grind. Hardest is quite possibly favour for yugo pot? Superior false life, toughness and con+6 all come on a single docent, that's not too hard to obtain.

Then there's:
+3 tome and another +1 exceptional con = 627
+4 tome (if you're very lucky) and an epic envenomed cloak = 647

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but it's hilarious as it is... When I mention my wizard has 500 hp standing with no ship CON, people flip out. When I mention I can still get 100 more with a little bit of effort, they tell me I'm a liar and should stop trolling :D


Plus you can easily switch to AM and self-heal. Nerf WF!

[delsoboss]

Oh well at least this thread is turning out to be funny, and many people are agreeing that maybe 2x and 4x on top of the change of dices of some spells is a bit too much.

Oh and NERF WF!!!!!!

[Truga]

Out of form you're just a WF Wizard, and everyone knows how horrible those are.
Yep yep yep.

Plus you can easily switch to AM and self-heal. Nerf WF!
I think WF is to arcane what HOes are to full dps barbarians. It's just far above everything else. The 1 DC more that humans/drow get just isn't a good enough advantage for me to not choose something that has so much more HP and versatility. The ability of getting healed by divines, arcanes, divines with harm and other PM's auras/bursts, and, of course, self heals with either necro or reconstruct makes a PM work in any situation. Even cursed, there's nothing stopping you from repairing yourself in either form.

[taurean430]

I see it the other way around really, I just hit level 6 and I am playing in Zombie form unless it's just completely un-doable.

If anything at all it's going to make me that much better of a PM by the time I hit Lich form when you are almost unstoppable.

I compare it to AC....why bother with the the AC at low levels when it's not going to matter at high levels anyways...you learn how to live without it and are used to it and that much better by the time you hit cap.

But seriously, Barbs and Fighters can do crazy DPS too and even without fortification they are not capable of being one shotted by a single melee enemy critical hit.....like full HP to zero in one shot.

Our self healing in form is nice and all, but it's not so powerful that I think it warrants us being crippled by light rays. Hurt more or even scary is fine.....it's beyond that point tho.

It'll be more doable when I hit level 7 and get Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst.

Honestly tho, light rays are the scariest thing I have ever faced in the game when ur level 6 and only have lesser death aura....LOL

That tiefling optional in Partycrashers.......with the whole gang of them and the restroom shrines....wow....that was...."exciting".


I would suggest dropping out of form for encounters such as you are describing here. I am of the opinion that the multiplier to damage one receives in vampire form is excessive. Yet and still there must be a mitigating factor in having all of the advantages that the PrC offers.

I have also found that spells as simple as hypnotism and web make encounters like the one you describe considerably less threatening.

[perylousdemon]

I do have to agree with the OP that palemasters in form take way too much light damage. I can think of two examples where we had a PM in the group that was one-shotted by sunburst doing 700 points of damage. Once was when Horoth bugged out in ToD and started attacking the group before the dialogue was over; he cast sunburst on us, everyone else was fine, the PM keeled over immediately. The second time was in epic Snitch; one of the mephits cast sunburst as soon as it spawned, everyone else was fine, the PM keeled over. IMO, it's a little over the top. I can understand vampire form taking a ton of extra light damage (since they are, of course, creatures of the night), but the rest just seems a bit much.

[Aashrym]

I like the glass cannon feel. I tend to keep my wraithform (edit: depending on my mood with that character. I drop it sometimes too) and use stealth tho when soloing, long range spells for casters, and drop form if needed. I'll let other players grab aggro first in a group.

So far the upsides are more than worth the downsides to me. I don't do vampire form tho.

[katz]

o noes. x2-x4 light damage. :(


be glad the cleric NPCs don't just turn undead


and before anyone snarks at me, yes, i have a mid-level PM

[Ungood]

be glad the cleric NPCs don't just turn undead

I laughed, but hush you, before you give the Dev's ideas...

[ShanxTadeu]

Sry for my noob question but PM ve +1 DC over AM?

In the ddo wiki n in game we can see that AM could ve +2 <School> DC from Archmage Spell Mastery I and II.

Pm ve +2 INT (+1 DC for all schools) n +1 Necro DC.

So why people said that PM ve +1 dc over AM? If the choosed school is Necro, both ve +2 =z

[Aashrym]

o noes. x2-x4 light damage. :(


be glad the cleric NPCs don't just turn undead


and before anyone snarks at me, yes, i have a mid-level PM

I've been chill touched and ran away tho. I was feeling a bit shocked on that. I didn't think any mob casters used the spell and then there it was hitting STK on level 6 zombie form after a TR. I'm waiting for halt undead one of these days.

[Corwinsky]

The dmg taken from light spells by PMs are fine as is. The stronger you are the more powerful your weakness should be.
Nothing prevents you of being outside of undead form when encountering ennemy casters that have these spells.

This kind of post reminds me of all the druids whinner in EQ complaining they were not not powerful enough while they were the strongest solo class in the game + a very usefull and versatile class in group (heals or offensive dmgs).

If you're not happy with how your PM performs just roll another class, or take a different prestige. Of course you won't since it's the most powerful class/Pre in the game...

[Dragavon]

Sry for my noob question but PM ve +1 DC over AM?

In the ddo wiki n in game we can see that AM could ve +2 <School> DC from Archmage Spell Mastery I and II.

Pm ve +2 INT (+1 DC for all schools) n +1 Necro DC.

So why people said that PM ve +1 dc over AM? If the choosed school is Necro, both ve +2 =z

I dont think I have ever seen the English language beeing mangled this way before :D

[ShanxTadeu]

Funny isnt?

My native language isnt Eng, now can u speak another language? *******, the world dont rolls around the Eng nations.

[Truga]

Funny isnt?

My native language isnt Eng, now u can even speak another language? *******, the world dont rolls around the Eng nations.

And yet my English is quite OK.

Edit: Seriously, if you even bothered to try nobody would mind the bad English. Everyone is bad at some language (mine being German), but all the "u" and "ve" (what's a "ve" anyway) just makes you look like a lazy grade school kid.

[delsoboss]

Germans are so overpowered that they have to take double damage from the English language! But Bavarians taking 4x is a bit over the top ... oh sorry guys, got caught in the discussion what's this thread about again?

Seriously an advice to everyone, stop complaining about other users language we got enough closed threads for such lowly things.

PS: any reference to Germans, Bavarians and English language is merely fictional, no European has been harmed while this post was being written.

[Dragavon]

Funny isnt?

My native language isnt Eng, now can u speak another language? *******, the world dont rolls around the Eng nations.

My native language is not English either ;)

[Maitland]

'omg im taking dmg, stop that please' is kinda... lol.[/color][/QUOTE]

I laughed real hard at this,funny stuff but so true nowadays

[bartosy]

I got a solution

it's easy too

it's called :

agro management

this includes not running headlong and zerging a quest just because you
can heal yourself and then complain here about being 1 shotted because
your used to godmode instagibbing mobs left and right and then find a flaw
in your strategy.

theres absolutely no reason for you to get hit if you just stay behind the melee and just take mobs off to the left and the right.

[Uska]

Wow, I'll just jump on the bash the person with a problem bandwagon here.....PUT ME ON BLOCK OR GET SOME NEW EYES

Done been thinking about it for months and thanks for the ding wont say what I really think about people who feel the need to post in glaring fonts but we covered it in psy 101

[Hokiewa]

Funny isnt?

My native language isnt Eng, now can u speak another language? *******, the world dont rolls around the Eng nations.

Duhhhh. Everbody knows people on the Sun speak English.

[Uska]

Funny isnt?

My native language isnt Eng, now can u speak another language? *******, the world dont rolls around the Eng nations.

I dont get it but anyways I dont care what lang anyone speaks as long as we can play the game and have fun together