Would like to see DDO a *little* more casual friendly

[Enigmaticatious]

First up, I am really enjoying the game and think you guys have done a great job with it.

The only issue I am finding is that as a casual gamer, I dont often have a great deal of time to play, but when I get the chance I like to know in advance what I am in for. So when I select a quest to go on I pay close attention to the "length" that is listed. This gives me a great idea as to how long I am expecting to be involved with a quest and unavailable to the world (it is so engrossing the house could burn to the ground around me and I wouldn't notice).

So the problem is, when play through some quests, you reach the end and suddenly discover there is an extention to which you basically have no choice to continue. Recalling at this point means you would have to do it all over again to get to the second part.

Would it be possible to actually state at the beginning of the quest that it is an extended quest and that you are in for more than just a single "long" period? At least that way I know in advance to only do them when I know I have time... There is nothing worse than telling those around you that you will only be 30 minutes only to get into a double "long" quest and taking over an hour.

[DoctorWhofan]

With exception of a few quests, the majority are about < 1 hour.

As for the double long quests, there are very few of them. VoN 3 is one, for starts. Probably a couple more. THey are very rare. Recommend not doing those unless you have the time. I am sure others will list such quests for you if you ask. THe ones in explorer areas are not the same, and ones like STK can be restarted at the same enterance where you left off.

[Enigmaticatious]

With exception of a few quests, the majority are about < 1 hour.

Being in a party can make it go faster. Shortmanning it will make it go faster.

No more causal. There is too much casual now. And I am a Casual Player.

I dont see how stating a length of "long (extended)" is going to change your playing experience at all. It will definately improve mine and would be the smallest of improvements.

[DoctorWhofan]

I dont see how stating a length of "long (extended)" is going to change your playing experience at all. It will definately improve mine and would be the smallest of improvements.

BTW reread what I wrote. I misread your OP and changed my point. As I said in my amended post, there are very few of these. While not a big deal to ask for that, agreed, but it is easily rectified by asking for the list. Granted I do not know all of them, but I am sure someone here does.

[The_Brave2]

Not very many quests are going to blindside you like that unless you are running with a very slow group of players, like the post above me, most quests are < 1hr. only quests i can think of (that you would encounter leveling) would be Coal Chamber, Chains of Flame (with a bad group), The Crucible (bad group). Most of the quests currently in-game are about 20-30mins.

The timing sugestions on the quest are.. mostly incorrect. alot of chain quests will suprise you with another part, like STK/Tangleroot. Best way to avoid that is to join a group and ask how long they think it will take if you are really strapped for time. I wouldnt log and do much on a 30min timer.

[sigtrent]

I can't think of many quests that actually work that way. Most of those that have an internal entrance can also be entered from an outside one. Most of the exceptions feature a very short pre-quest... but I don't know if they are marked as long or not...

Shantocor and Waterworks all have internal chain entrances, but you can also enter the second and third parts from the entrance you used for the first quest. You might not be aware of that. Same for the Descent series.

[Emizand]

The only issue I am finding is that as a casual gamer, I dont often have a great deal of time to play, but when I get the chance I like to know in advance what I am in for.

The problem is how much information is enough? What may be enough for you may not be enough for someone else. I think there is enough information as there is. However taking on board what you have said I would suggest a couple of minutes on ddowiki prior to starting would give you all the information you need.

Hope this helps.

Emi

[Zirun]

Yeah, I would go around the forums saying the game should be more "casual friendly". The game's a far cry from what it used to be, in terms of how nice it is to the casual player, and a lot of old men are grumpy about it!

Most quests can be done by themselves and have no quest that you need to go directly into after finishing or miss the opportunity to. This may not be all of them, but here's a quick list of quests that have entrances that exist only at the end of another quest:

Tangleroot Gorge - Assault on Splinterskull - the final 6 quests of the chain are in groups of 2, with the second of each doublet having its entrance at the end of the first.

Catacombs - Setting The Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt - I don't know for sure whether you need to do the previous quest again if you exit, but both quests are very short, so it shouldn't make a real difference.

Waterworks - Part 2 (Rescuing Arlos) and Part 4 (Venn's Fate) - somewhat long quests, these are probably what you encountered.

The Restless Isles - The Titan Awakes (Raid) - not sure if the start of this is in the end of the quest before it or not, but regardless, you have to do the quest before it (The Twilight Forge) each time you want to do it. Zawabi's Revenge (ADQ2, in The Demon Sands) requires you do Against the Demon Queen (ADQ1) each time, too, but that's also two entirely seperate quests.

The Vault of Night - Plane of Night (Raid) - must do Vault of Night quest each time you want to do the Plane of Night.

I believe there's a quest like this in the Seal of Shan-To-Kor, though I don't own the pack and am not certain. There may also be something like this in the Ruins of Threnal, but, again, I'm not certain as I don't own that pack.

I think that's all, but I could very easily be mistaken. For the most part, though, you can leave a quest chain halfway through and be fine. Newer content, especially. Older stuff seems to have the bad habit of forcing you to do more than one quest at a time. I agree that it's a small change that could be made for quality of life for new players, but it honestly would probably take more work than it's worth. There's so few quests with internal entrances, and none of the newer ones do, and it would be a change that would probably take a fair amount of work to make happen.

It's not a list of internal entrances, exactly, but it is a list of all of the "chains" of quests in the game, so it may be of some help to you: http://ddowiki.com/page/Story_arc

[joneb1999]

I dont see how stating a length of "long (extended)" is going to change your playing experience at all. It will definately improve mine and would be the smallest of improvements.

I asked for a timer on an lfm. Like your suggestion it is a cosmetic request for a user friendly addition to the LFM interface so impedes no one. You should see the response I got. lol

BTW /signed for your suggestion

[Enigmaticatious]

BTW reread what I wrote. I misread your OP and changed my point. As I said in my amended post, there are very few of these. While not a big deal to ask for that, agreed, but it is easily rectified by asking for the list. Granted I do not know all of them, but I am sure someone here does.

Yes I have read it now, I replied to your original post... problem with editing I guess :)

Sorry to say, but I dont want to have to drag around a list with me and check it every time I do a quest. I would much rather just look at the details of the quest and know everything I need to know there. Games shouldn't need you to keep additional files outside of it just to be able to play it properly.

I am only level 6 and I have already had this happen to me on 5-6 occasions.

The only other thing, is that I don't often have a full hour to play, so simply saying "they are < 1 hr" again doesn't suit casual gamers (in general, obviously you are a different type of casual gamer whom it suits). If I have only 10 minutes I will pick a short, if I have under 30 minutes I will pick a medium, if I have 30 to 1 hour I will pick a long.... but I dont want to end up being in it for nearly 2 hours because it turned out to be a long-long and completely blind sided me with it.

Its really not a big request... and certainly not something I would have thought would get such a negative response, and *definately* not something I thought people would say "keep track of it yourself outside the game".... That would be a very frustrating trend to start sliding down.

[herzkos]

deleted because i was preempted while typing my book.

[Enigmaticatious]

I asked for a timer on an lfm. Like your suggestion it is a cosmetic request for a user friendly addition to the LFM interface to impedes no one. You should see the response I got. lol

BTW /signed for your suggestion

I guess I just have a different definition of "casual"... and it doesn't involve keeping my own lists and checking a wiki every time I want to play for 30 minutes... but I'm a wierd one like that ;-P

[Cirian]

The problem I see here is some people will finish a quest in 5 mintes and others might take half an hour. A warning about attached quests(parts of tangleroot for example) would be handy.

[Zirun]

Its really not a big request... and certainly not something I would have thought would get such a negative response, and *definately* not something I thought people would say "keep track of it yourself outside the game".... That would be a very frustrating trend to start sliding down.

It's not so much that people hate the idea as it is something that is relatively small and most people have gotten used to. We all have played for so long that most of us could probably tell you by heart how long a quest (chain) will take, what quests you need to do for X quest/raid, etc. It's just part of the game for us.

And since it's a small part of the game that has an impact on a group of people that isn't, well, us, it seems less important to us. Helping new players is important, of course, but I think I can safely say that most of us forum-goers would rather have huge bugs (Handwraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps, why art thou so bugged?!) fixed than quality-of-life changes for people that aren't us.

On the bright side, I think the last quest chain to do this (where both the first and second quest that must be done are both long, not two-minute ones like the Xorian Cipher pre-quest) was The Vault of Night, which came out... eons ago, when the level cap was 10. So Turbine at least understands that internal entrances aren't good, and aren't making them any more.

Now if only we could tell them how annoying pre-raids are...

[joneb1999]

i'm having difficulties thinking of many quests that you have a "long" prequest for.

As DWF stated, von 3 is one.
Von 5 is another, but if you're new to a raid you should expect to spend some serious
time in there.
Xorian cypher could be another one but most people blast through to the end of the prequest.
Same with Dreams of insanity.

the vast majority of the chain quests are not immediate followthrough or redo.

the last 3 parts of tangleroot are 2 parters though.
hmmm, shroud i suppose. if you wanna stretch the point into phases.

even the catacombs quest "setting the wards" is a two parter but you can exit after
finishing part 1 and enter part 2 at your leisure.

not sure there are any other multi part quests that require immediate continuation.

If there aren't many quests like the one the OP mentioned it wont take much time, effort or resources to make the change he asks for. You would be surprised how the smallest detail can make the biggest difference.

[Enigmaticatious]

even the catacombs quest "setting the wards" is a two parter but you can exit after
finishing part 1 and enter part 2 at your leisure.
.

So how does one find out that you can recall from the quest and re-enter the second part? I don't remember reading it anywhere or knowing this in advance, and the fact some people have said "new ones are good, old ones can do it to you" only makes it harder to differenciate. Not everybody has been here since day 1 so new vs old is impossible to foreknow.

What would add to new player's frustrations is either automatically assuming its ok to leave, only to find they have to replay through the entire first part again, but not knowing this until AFTER you have made the choice. When all I am asking is for a change of a word from "long" to "long (extended)" in a few known places, eliminating all need for keeping separate lists and pre-checking wikis, and which will benefit ALL players in the future... kind of dont understand why people are responding so negatively.

[Zirun]

If there aren't many quests like the one the OP mentioned it wont take much time, effort or resources to make the change he asks for. You would be surprised how the smallest detail can make the biggest difference.

And you'd be surprised how much work the seemingly smallest detail can take. :P It's so easy to fix something, and break a million other things in the process... Darn computers, so fickle with their lack of reasoning skills!

[herzkos]

If there aren't many quests like the one the OP mentioned it wont take much time, effort or resources to make the change he asks for. You would be surprised how the smallest detail can make the biggest difference.

whoa there :), i wasn't arguing against what the op wanted. I actually think it's a pretty good idea.
the only problem I see is how to decide what the length of a quest is. You could go by the average group
but then again the average group will tend to speed runs which will be misinformation to a new player.
the group makeup also dictates how long a quest will take.

I like the op's idea and propose that the devs change the short, medium, long categories to
an expected amount of time for a group of newish players. It shouldn't be a problem because
new and time limited players are really going to be the only ones looking at it.
I've been playing long enough that i can generally estimate how long a quest is going to take even
in a pug.

[Enigmaticatious]

It's not so much that people hate the idea as it is something that is relatively small and most people have gotten used to. We all have played for so long that most of us could probably tell you by heart how long a quest (chain) will take, what quests you need to do for X quest/raid, etc. It's just part of the game for us.


Oh well, if you guys have all played for so long and know off by heart... by all means don't give this to new players. What on earth was I thinking? ;-P Its more important that those who have played for a long time get to recite it and accept it than try to make it better for everybody.



And since it's a small part of the game that has an impact on a group of people that isn't, well, us, it seems less important to us. Helping new players is important, of course, but I think I can safely say that most of us forum-goers would rather have huge bugs (Handwraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps, why art thou so bugged?!) fixed than quality-of-life changes for people that aren't us.


Seriously... is this actually an argument for NOT doing something simple? That its simply useless to you because of your stage in the game? I would have though that was grounds to just ignore it not shoot it down.



Now if only we could tell them how annoying pre-raids are...

Oh ok... well I am not currently doing raids so I guess I should be negative to this just because its not for me? Lets keep pre-raids because it doesn't effect me and its not important to me. mmmmm... there is some bad logic there :)

At least your honest, kudos to that :)

[Enigmaticatious]

And you'd be surprised how much work the seemingly smallest detail can take. :P It's so easy to fix something, and break a million other things in the process... Darn computers, so fickle with their lack of reasoning skills!

I dont think this applies in this case...

I'm a programmer so I understand what can go into these things and know first hand how you can break things. I also know that an internationalized application keeps all of its string references in a separate repository and then references them. Then when you display strings you simply use the required reference marker and the string is replace with your language specific string.

So what I am asking would require absolutely no CODE changes, it would simply be a change of reference from "LONGQUESTSTRING" to "LONGEXTQUESTSTRING" and an addition to 1 new string reference (something they would be doing all day and night).

Definately does not fall into the bucket of having potential to break things... Its not techno-magic, it doesn't work in mysterious ways. Its in fact incredibly logical and discrete.

[DoctorWhofan]

It's not so much that people hate the idea as it is something that is relatively small and most people have gotten used to. We all have played for so long that most of us could probably tell you by heart how long a quest (chain) will take, what quests you need to do for X quest/raid, etc. It's just part of the game for us.

And since it's a small part of the game that has an impact on a group of people that isn't, well, us, it seems less important to us. Helping new players is important, of course, but I think I can safely say that most of us forum-goers would rather have huge bugs (Handwraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps, why art thou so bugged?!) fixed than quality-of-life changes for people that aren't us.

On the bright side, I think the last quest chain to do this (where both the first and second quest that must be done are both long, not two-minute ones like the Xorian Cipher pre-quest) was The Vault of Night, which came out... eons ago, when the level cap was 10. So Turbine at least understands that internal entrances aren't good, and aren't making them any more.

Now if only we could tell them how annoying pre-raids are...

Dreams of insanity and Xoriat Cipher. THe first quest is easy, the second, well you shouldn't be entering without some friends. Still, both quests take about an hour together.

Tangleroot is the other. If you do tangleroot, usually it isn't a big idea to stop, but the last two quests are two parters that you HAVE to do the first to get to the second.

One in the Catacombs chain, but they are short.

STK and Waterworks can be stopped and started at any place in the chain.

VoN however... VoN3 the first part is like 5-10 minutes, depending. THe actual quest however...

And VoN 5-6 is a raid. 12 people, and it is one of the longest raids at level still. Plan for hours on that one.

So really, not a biggie. That's the list. The only ones that are different by their length are Dream ofInsanity, Xoriat Cipher, VoN3. Three quests. THe first two are in House J, near Tempest's Spine and the last is in House K...not sure they moved him, but I think he is still near the bank.

As others said, I'[d rather get the big stuff fixed than having the developers worry about putting (extended) behind certain quests. Besides, a bunch of peeps will then start asking what that means.

[herzkos]

So how does one find out that you can recall from the quest and re-enter the second part? I don't remember reading it anywhere or knowing this in advance, and the fact some people have said "new ones are good, old ones can do it to you" only makes it harder to differenciate. Not everybody has been here since day 1 so new vs old is impossible to foreknow.

What would add to new player's frustrations is either automatically assuming its ok to leave, only to find they have to replay through the entire first part again, but not knowing this until AFTER you have made the choice. When all I am asking is for a change of a word from "long" to "long (extended)" in a few known places, eliminating all need for keeping separate lists and pre-checking wikis, and which will benefit ALL players in the future... kind of dont understand why people are responding so negatively.

I wan't being negative about it, twas just trying to expand upon what DWF said.

anyway, the extended idea could work though i think extended would be just as confusing to a new player.
maybe have it say something like 2 part (short, long)?

[Enigmaticatious]

So really, not a biggie. That's the list.


I have just encounted it in Seal of Sora-Kor... so wouldn't it be easier to just use the right description rather than relying on the community and crossing your fingers they got them all?



As others said, I'[d rather get the big stuff fixed than having the developers worry about putting (extended) behind certain quests. Besides, a bunch of peeps will then start asking what that means.

If what I was saying would take hours and hours and hours to do I would agree, but I doubt it would take more than 1 hour of work. Considering it would change NO code and would only be a reference change (which is probably in a config file somewhere) would be a no brainer that even an intern could do. Its not like doing this would mean something big got completely missed.

And if "extended" isn't satisfactory, then be my guest as to what you want to use instead "long (two parts)", "long + long", "extra long", "2 x long"... I am sure even someone with an 8 Int could work out what any of those mean ;)

[Zirun]

Oh well, if you guys have all played for so long and know off by heart... by all means don't give this to new players. What on earth was I thinking? ;-P Its more important that those who have played for a long time get to recite it and accept it than try to make it better for everybody.



Seriously... is this actually an argument for NOT doing something simple? That its simply useless to you because of your stage in the game? I would have though that was grounds to just ignore it not shoot it down.



Oh ok... well I am not currently doing raids so I guess I should be negative to this just because its not for me? Lets keep pre-raids because it doesn't effect me and its not important to me. mmmmm... there is some bad logic there :)

At least your honest, kudos to that :)

I don't not agree with the idea. In fact, I think it's a great idea. If it takes the two seconds it seems like it would take to implement it, I'd be all for it. Well, I'm all for it anyways, so long as it doesn't break the game entirely!

The problems I have with the idea isn't with the idea itself, but the issue. I'd rather have these internal entrances, required pre-quests, etc. removed or otherwise changed to not be like this, instead of a band-aid text block for something that really shouldn't be in the game anyways. Including pre-raids like Vault of Night and Twilight Forge, as well as the ones mentioned in this thread like Catacombs, Tangleroot, Xorian Cipher, etc. If you're going to fix something, go all-out fixing it! Running out to and doing Against the Demon Queen on Casual difficulty just so you can do Zawabi's Revenge on Epic is... as the French would say, le dumb. ~_~

Having all these random pre-quest areas, too, like in Dreams of Insanity, Xorian Cipher and Spawn of Whisperdoom is... odd, to say the least. They serve no real purpose whatsoever. Little XP, no real loot, no actual questing other than "Go to location X and begin the quest"... makes me wonder why they were even put into the game in the first place.

I guess that's probably for another topic, though, lol.

If all else fails, a band-aid will suffice, though.


And if "extended" isn't satisfactory, then be my guest as to what you want to use instead "long (two parts)", "long + long", "extra long", "2 x long"... I am sure even someone with an 8 Int could work out what any of those mean ;)

I dunno, I think I saw an ooze with 8 Int once...

[The_Brave2]

Definately does not fall into the bucket of having potential to break things... Its not techno-magic, it doesn't work in mysterious ways. Its in fact incredibly logical and discrete.

You would be suprised with what the DDO tech team can do, so much seemingly random stuff gets broken for no reason xD

[phum]

And you'd be surprised how much work the seemingly smallest detail can take. :P It's so easy to fix something, and break a million other things in the process... Darn computers, so fickle with their lack of reasoning skills!

I'd understand this, if Turbine was a company of only a few guys. With their manpower and skill, all they need is decision making and time. The speed at which they make new content is imo evidence to their skill. It's very good. They could certainly make a decision to add some polish to the game. OP suggestion is ok. /signed

[DoctorWhofan]

And if "extended" isn't satisfactory, then be my guest as to what you want to use instead "long (two parts)", "long + long", "extra long", "2 x long"... I am sure even someone with an 8 Int could work out what any of those mean ;)

You haven't met the average gamer these days, have you? :p Lower your expectations a little, my friend. It either needs to be in Textspeak or spelled out with visual aids.

The idea is fine, but knowing Turbine, there is probably so HUGE process to get stuff like that fixed. Never found out if they fixed a bunch of the texts the NPC said in the marketplace when the F2P was in beta. I reported,but when it went live, nope! Still there with the mispellings. Now that the marketplace has been shifted around , I don't even remember who they are!

It took them 3+ years to fix the DM's Tanglefoot referance. I miss that. And that is just flavour. gods knows how long it would take to put a referance that there is a second quest inside of another. I'd say 3 years. Maybe 2. While it may be simple to fix, I am sure there is a procedure to be allowed to do so. We had problams in the past from their "simple fixes", we vets get real nervous about that.

[grayham]

OP- surely you must be on about Tangleroot quests? Called Groundhog day for a reason. At level 6 all of the 'house' quests are open to you, and most are in the region of half an hour played at a measured pace. As said above, there are some quests that take an age to complete when you first attempt them, but if you know then you're prepared. Personally I've always thought the Medium/long/very long system works well as an indication for the first time through.

[joneb1999]

And you'd be surprised how much work the seemingly smallest detail can take. :P It's so easy to fix something, and break a million other things in the process... Darn computers, so fickle with their lack of reasoning skills!

The OP is asking for a little more text detail in a quest description. :rolleyes:

[stoerm]

To add to the lis of mentions: The Pit takes 90 minutes easily when pugging at a pace friendly to first timers. Add to that no leader, people getting lost and wiping you are looking at 2 hours.

It's a fun quest but be aware.

[noodlesvirginia]

Honestly i think this is an idea that can be implemented...instead of having "Long, very long, short, very short, or medium" they can instead have an average amount of time for each quest, like have an average time with a balanced party. Like with The Pit for example, with an average party might take maybe 1-2 hours, but with a good group can run in about 15 minutes. if you guys get what i'm saying. just update the "Length" to like this
Quest: XX
Length:
C/N/H/E/Ep
Approx time with balanced party: xxx

[parvo]

The adventure log should group series quests. Simple.

[Emizand]

The problem I see here is some people will finish a quest in 5 mintes and others might take half an hour.

This. As simple as this. Say you went into a quest that stated half hour and after 45 mins you where still there. You had to log because of family commitments. I am pretty sure you would be on the forums the next day becrying Turbine for giving wrong information.

I dont think its a good idea to give expected time for quests. Look at the arguments/debates about kill counts. Think putting times on quests will only result in trouble/moaning. Thats my view and you are entitled to yours.

Have you considered playing at certain times. Once a week, thurs night or some such. Even once a fortnight. I only suggest this beacuse I play in a set group (5 years now) and even if i dont get on any other time i know i will be on on thursday nights.

Good luck whatever you decide/do.

Emi

[Gremmlynn]

The adventure log should group series quests. Simple.Great idea. Put a notation there.

[Xatasha]

Now I don't know about the other quest chains out there but Waterworks allows you to do one part at a time. You can do part one recall out and come back later and when you hit the instance you are at part 2.

I don't think this game needs to be anymore casual friendly and IMO needs to be a tad more hardcore. There is a fine line between casual friendly and slightly lazy. A little research and you can easily avoid long instance chains

[SisAmethyst]

BTW reread what I wrote. I misread your OP and changed my point. As I said in my amended post, there are very few of these. While not a big deal to ask for that, agreed, but it is easily rectified by asking for the list. Granted I do not know all of them, but I am sure someone here does.

According to the quest times ... checkout the incredible MrCow's Diaries:

Diaries of a True Reincarnate (Arcane) (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=226992)
Diaries of a True Reincarnate (Melee) (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=237895)

which (if I am not mistaken) include as well the times for a single player to complete those.

[Enigmaticatious]

You would be suprised with what the DDO tech team can do, so much seemingly random stuff gets broken for no reason xD

Randomness is simply our inability to understand the factors that go into it :)

[Enigmaticatious]

You haven't met the average gamer these days, have you? :p Lower your expectations a little, my friend. It either needs to be in Textspeak or spelled out with visual aids.


I am using basic "deduction" to say that if they can understand "short", "medium" and "long", that any of the ones I mentioned would also be understandable. Simple logic my dear watson ;-P



The idea is fine, but knowing Turbine, there is probably so HUGE process to get stuff like that fixed. Never found out if they fixed a bunch of the texts the NPC said in the marketplace when the F2P was in beta. I reported,but when it went live, nope! Still there with the mispellings. Now that the marketplace has been shifted around , I don't even remember who they are!


If it were a coding issue I would agree, but considering we are talking text strings and this is an internationalized application, the general way of coding this (and I doubt Turbine would be doing it any different, to do so would be to purposely do it the worst possible way), means that there would be separate files that hold strings and quests would clearly use some kind of configuration or database entry to hold these values. So updating them (especially when we are talking only about a handful of KNOWN entries) shouldn't be too difficult. Spelling mistakes are more difficult as you have to visually look for them and clearly they were missed before so missing them again is easy. Here they know exactly where they are looking and exactly what they are changing.



It took them 3+ years to fix the DM's Tanglefoot referance. I miss that. And that is just flavour. gods knows how long it would take to put a referance that there is a second quest inside of another. I'd say 3 years. Maybe 2. While it may be simple to fix, I am sure there is a procedure to be allowed to do so. We had problams in the past from their "simple fixes", we vets get real nervous about that.

Well I will obviously defer to your judgement on that as I haven't been here long enough to know. I'm sorry to hear that then... Strikes me as the same mentality a lot of MMO companies have where the drive is purely new content over fixing existing content. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks DrWhoFan (btw, just saw The Big Bang... interesting twists)

[Enigmaticatious]

Now I don't know about the other quest chains out there but Waterworks allows you to do one part at a time. You can do part one recall out and come back later and when you hit the instance you are at part 2.

I never knew this... and I dont think it is mentioned anywhere and first timers are not going to know that when they have just finished the first part and are presented with starting the next. At that point they are going to feel compelled to do the next part becaue they have no knowledge of being able to re-enter.

If this were true, simply telling them they could do this, or ensuring that ALL quests with multiple parts provided this option would also alleviate this problem completely.



I don't think this game needs to be anymore casual friendly and IMO needs to be a tad more hardcore. There is a fine line between casual friendly and slightly lazy. A little research and you can easily avoid long instance chains

Somehow I don't think you understand the definition of "casual". Generally the use of words like "research" are diagonally opposed to such a concept. I like my games "hardcore", but my time is "casual". There is a huge difference between the two concepts.

Casual means you have limited (and often unpredictable or inconsistent) time and want to use what you effectively. When you are actually in the game, go for gold, do what you will, make it as hardcore as you like... but the last thing in the world any person should have to do is waste time learning all about what they are about to do rather than reading an already provided "cheat sheet" that gives them the heads up on what they are about to get into. For those who don't care just click to start (or have a config option to not display this for you guys), but it doesn't diminish the game in any way to have it there.

There is no reason why both styles cannot co-exist perfectly and live side by side without problems. Neither style has a right to take away from the other or "stop" the other from enjoyment or from improvements that only affect them (and are not detrimantal to anyone else).

Asking someone to do research, whose play style is to casually spend the 15-30 minutes they have in the game they love is like me asking you to only play the game in 30 minute intervals and log off every 30 minutes :)

[Mulupai]

The adventure log should group series quests. Simple.

I'm fairly new and love that idea. Even adding a "Part 1 of 2" in the quest description would be nice.

Been around long enough to get used to the short, medium, etc, descriptions and able to plan for them, but like the OP, get a bit annoyed by the long, then long+ quest. However, having the extended afk timer that vip allows, not to hard to walk by the PC and tap a key to reset it until I can get back. But that is just me.

[Chilldude]

:::spots thread title:::

---ALERT!---

---ALERT!---

---Casual gamers under attack. Assume battle stations---

I'm in. Let's do this people.

Wait. Wha...?

Quest length!? Gah! False alarm.

[inggold]

I never knew this... and I dont think it is mentioned anywhere and first timers are not going to know that when they have just finished the first part and are presented with starting the next. At that point they are going to feel compelled to do the next part becaue they have no knowledge of being able to re-enter.

If this were true, simply telling them they could do this, or ensuring that ALL quests with multiple parts provided this option would also alleviate this problem completely.



Somehow I don't think you understand the definition of "casual". Generally the use of words like "research" are diagonally opposed to such a concept. I like my games "hardcore", but my time is "casual". There is a huge difference between the two concepts.

Casual means you have limited (and often unpredictable or inconsistent) time and want to use what you effectively. When you are actually in the game, go for gold, do what you will, make it as hardcore as you like... but the last thing in the world any person should have to do is waste time learning all about what they are about to do rather than reading an already provided "cheat sheet" that gives them the heads up on what they are about to get into. For those who don't care just click to start (or have a config option to not display this for you guys), but it doesn't diminish the game in any way to have it there.

There is no reason why both styles cannot co-exist perfectly and live side by side without problems. Neither style has a right to take away from the other or "stop" the other from enjoyment or from improvements that only affect them (and are not detrimantal to anyone else).

Asking someone to do research, whose play style is to casually spend the 15-30 minutes they have in the game they love is like me asking you to only play the game in 30 minute intervals and log off every 30 minutes :)

A little point of clarification here:

What you are talking about isn't casual play, it is time starved play. There is a rather significant and fundamental difference.

You want to max your benefits (in this case, exp earned per time spent) - that is not a casual trait. You simply don't have the time to go wandering without being concerned about time wasted as a casual player would.

And sadly for you, yes, the solution is to do a little research. I'm also a time starved player, and often have the intermittent, sporadic lengths of time you are talking about. And yes, I did a little homework to understand the quest mechanics, as well as look up some quests.

[DoctorWhofan]

I never knew this... and I dont think it is mentioned anywhere and first timers are not going to know that when they have just finished the first part and are presented with starting the next. At that point they are going to feel compelled to do the next part becaue they have no knowledge of being able to re-enter.

Casual means you have limited (and often unpredictable or inconsistent) time and want to use what you effectively.:)


First thing: You can do that with Tangleroot (except for the last 3 quests the chief gives you. You have to run to the back door and THEN start the actual quest) And with STK (shan to Kor) You can leave the quests and finish them another day. In the case of STK and WW, they put the next quest door there for convienence. THe Depths series is like that too, but each quest has it's own opening and is actually 4 seperate quests given by 4 seperate NPCs.


Second thing: You may be casual, but you are a TIME STARVED player. Casual means the PLAYSTYLE. Someone pointed it out, and that is why my first post was changed I tend to go on the defensive about casual playing, becuase I am a casual player.

As for fixing it, perhaps I didn't explain it well. When I was in the Navy, I repaired aircraft. One day, my shop had two jobs: fix a strap on a cot on the plane and a valve stuck on the AC system. Guess what one the was the priority? Guess which one Mantenance Control sent us on? Since the AC cools the electronics of the plane, the plane couldn't fly with a bad valve. the strap was, meh. THe strap takes like 5 minutes to fix, the valve could take the whole day. MC knew this and they would send the whole shop to the valve problem.

Over simplification, to be sure (trust me, we usually had more than one issue and so does Turbine) but not being sure how their system of maintenance on the game works, I am sure the people who could dive in and fix it to your liking could go a do that, but it low on their priority list. That is why we say this: Great Idea, don't hold your breath, nor do we want Turbine to focus on this.

[Gremmlynn]

Over simplification, to be sure (trust me, we usually had more than one issue and so does Turbine) but not being sure how their system of maintenance on the game works, I am sure the people who could dive in and fix it to your liking could go a do that, but it low on their priority list. That is why we say this: Great Idea, don't hold your breath, nor do we want Turbine to focus on this.Add to this that I'm willing to bet that a large enough portion of the playerbase have little tweaks like this that they'd like to see to keep the whole programing staff busy for years. The really good one's might actually make it into the next game they develop.

[Hambo]

I believe there's a quest like this in the Seal of Shan-To-Kor, though I don't own the pack and am not certain. There may also be something like this in the Ruins of Threnal, but, again, I'm not certain as I don't own that pack.

I think that's all, but I could very easily be mistaken. For the most part, though, you can leave a quest chain halfway through and be fine. Newer content, especially. Older stuff seems to have the bad habit of forcing you to do more than one quest at a time. I agree that it's a small change that could be made for quality of life for new players, but it honestly would probably take more work than it's worth. There's so few quests with internal entrances, and none of the newer ones do, and it would be a change that would probably take a fair amount of work to make happen.

It's not a list of internal entrances, exactly, but it is a list of all of the "chains" of quests in the game, so it may be of some help to you: http://ddowiki.com/page/Story_arc

There's a reason these are called quest chains... they are actually a group of quests and you can stop as soon as the current quest ends (when the finish button appears) and pick up at that very same spot when you return later. The original entrance ports you to the proper quest start point. Off the top of my head the only quest that doesn't do this is Splinterskull , in the last three parts, and the reason is that you have to exit the quest to advance it with the NPC. The reason chains are popular is that when you complete the final part there is usually a better than normal quest end reward.

As far as STK is concerned, the optional quest that used to start inside (The Sacred Helm) has been relocated to a side area of the steam tunnels and is picked up at its seperate entrance.

[Hambo]

So how does one find out that you can recall from the quest and re-enter the second part? I don't remember reading it anywhere or knowing this in advance, and the fact some people have said "new ones are good, old ones can do it to you" only makes it harder to differenciate. Not everybody has been here since day 1 so new vs old is impossible to foreknow.

What would add to new player's frustrations is either automatically assuming its ok to leave, only to find they have to replay through the entire first part again, but not knowing this until AFTER you have made the choice. When all I am asking is for a change of a word from "long" to "long (extended)" in a few known places, eliminating all need for keeping separate lists and pre-checking wikis, and which will benefit ALL players in the future... kind of dont understand why people are responding so negatively.

If the button under the quest objectives says "Recall" and you hit it, you would have to rerun the whole thing.

If the button says "Finish" and you hit it, that means you have already been awarded XP and it's generally safe to exit and pick up at the next quest later.

Try this in STK: Run through the first part, kill the boss on the bridge, and collect his chests. Notice the button still says "Recall". You haven't finished until you walk up to the door and the button changes to "Finish".

At that point you could hit "Finish" and get back to the entrance in the Steam Tunnels. Recalling from there will get you back outside, where you can go to the tavern and quit.

Come back in an hour, day, week, etc. Run through the Steam Tunnels to the STK entrance. When you enter you'll find that instead of part 1, you are ported to the start of part 2.

It works the same way for part 3. :D

[Hambo]

I wan't being negative about it, twas just trying to expand upon what DWF said.

anyway, the extended idea could work though i think extended would be just as confusing to a new player.
maybe have it say something like 2 part (short, long)?

Just say "Multi-part Quest: No end reward until you complete part X"

This should warn even the newest player that it's gonna take a while... :rolleyes:

[GeneralDiomedes]

We have Short, Medium, Long, Very Long. The descriptions are fine, the only problems I see are

- Are significant optionals included in this description? Should be split into optional/no-optional lengths
- No way to tell if you are part of a chain
- No way to tell how long the entire chain will take
- Although generally indicative, they are subjective. I suppose an average/median completion time listed on the quest entrance would be more helpful

However, since it takes all of a couple of minutes to check the internet and get your information, you can bet this update to the UI will be a long time coming.

[Hambo]

I never knew this... and I dont think it is mentioned anywhere and first timers are not going to know that when they have just finished the first part and are presented with starting the next. At that point they are going to feel compelled to do the next part becaue they have no knowledge of being able to re-enter.

If this were true, simply telling them they could do this, or ensuring that ALL quests with multiple parts provided this option would also alleviate this problem completely.



Somehow I don't think you understand the definition of "casual". Generally the use of words like "research" are diagonally opposed to such a concept. I like my games "hardcore", but my time is "casual". There is a huge difference between the two concepts.

Casual means you have limited (and often unpredictable or inconsistent) time and want to use what you effectively. When you are actually in the game, go for gold, do what you will, make it as hardcore as you like... but the last thing in the world any person should have to do is waste time learning all about what they are about to do rather than reading an already provided "cheat sheet" that gives them the heads up on what they are about to get into. For those who don't care just click to start (or have a config option to not display this for you guys), but it doesn't diminish the game in any way to have it there.

There is no reason why both styles cannot co-exist perfectly and live side by side without problems. Neither style has a right to take away from the other or "stop" the other from enjoyment or from improvements that only affect them (and are not detrimantal to anyone else).

Asking someone to do research, whose play style is to casually spend the 15-30 minutes they have in the game they love is like me asking you to only play the game in 30 minute intervals and log off every 30 minutes :)

Actually, my definition of casual is that there is no hurry, one can take one's time, open ended.

In my lexicon, your schedule would be more hardpressed or limited than casual. :D

[Philibusta]

And if "extended" isn't satisfactory, then be my guest as to what you want to use instead "long (two parts)", "long + long", "extra long", "2 x long"... I am sure even someone with an 8 Int could work out what any of those mean;)

I've run into people who seemingly did not possess such a gift.

Keep in mind, Turbine felt there was enough reason that they had to change simple things like "1d10" to "1 to 10 points of damage". Apparently too many people found "1d10" far too complicated.

[oberon131313]

Why not go for the more correctly designed decision and ask that they remove the "you need to go through this quest to get to part 2" issue that causes this problem in the first place. (other than explorer areas and pre-raids, both of which I feel are valid.)

[Mister_Peace]

The adventure log should group series quests. Simple.

Dammit Parvo, this is why I hate you. You've taken a terrible nitpicky suggestion and turned it into something that we all could use, and that a dev could actually file under "deliverables."

-1

[Falco_Easts]

I was actaully running Tanglefoot this morning and had the thought about them changing the last couple of stages so you don't have to run through the outer fortress to get to the inner if you get called away mid chain.

While I agree with the OP, average times may not be the best solution. The average time of a PUG running through a quest it has done before will be quite different to a solo first timer.

[Razcar]

OP, if you check out producer Fernando's "State of the Game"-address for 2011 he mentions a new game mode coming this year, that seems to aimed at "time-strapped" players like you. No details are given, only that it is some sort of smaller/shorter quests that are coming.