Ironwood - Survivalist Staff Master

[OldAquarian]

Warforged: 12 Rogue(R): Thief Acrobat / 6 Monk(M): Ninja / 2 Paladin (P)

The idea of this build is to take a staff build and sacrifice some dps for a lot of survivabiity
In the process I added reasonable Trapsmith capabilities

Rogue 12
- required for Thief Acrobat II - staff bonuses
- Immune to falling down
- CON: Not taking the standard Rogue 13 for 1d6 more sneak attack and improved evasion feat

Monk 6
- stances
- Most importantly adds Ninja Spy Shadow Fade

Paladin 2
- CHA bonus adds to saves - this the reason for NOT taking 13th Rogue level
- Toughness
- Mini Aura when no paladin is around
- Mini Lay on Hands
- Mini Smite

Warforged
- Immunities: Drowning, Life Drain, Fatigue, Sleep, Hold Person, Energy Drained, Nauseated, Exhausted, Poison, Disease, and Paralyzed
- CON/HP
- Power Attack/Glancing

Damage Mitigation
Ninja Shadow Fade - Incorporeal
- Cost: 15 Ki
- You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% \
- - miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

Plus one of the following Concealment (they don't stack):
Blur Clicky (supposed to stack)
- An ally's outline becomes slightly blurred, granting a 20% miss chance on attacks against the ally.
Cloudkill Scroll
- ... (attackers have 20% miss chance) ...
Displacement Scroll
50% Concealment
Sleetstorm Scroll
50% Blindness - 50 seconds and best part is you are immune to the falling down part
Also: Radiance II Weapon/Radiance Guard/Smoke II item/Cloak of Night

- Chance to be hit Blur/Clodkill= .75 * .8 = .6 or 40% Miss
- Chance to be hit Blind/Displacement = .75 * .5 = .375 or 62.5% Miss


- Note: Also try to get a Divine Power Clicky for full BAB

Levels
1 R - THF
2 M(Toughness) .................... [for less dying]
3 M(Power Attack) - Cleave .... [works now]
4/5 M(Path of Darkness) ........ [Ninja required]
6 M- Quick Draw ....................[faster boosts]
7 M(Dodge) ...........................[Ninja Required]
8/9 P - iTHF
10/11 R
12-14 R - IC:Blunt
15-17 R - gTHF
18 R(Opportunist) - gCleave....[Note that this is a separate timer from Cleave]
19/20 R

Stats - Only a +1 DEX Tome is needed for Adept of Wind - but using +2 tomes for comparison purposes
STR 17 +5 Levelups +2 Tome = 24 + 6 Item = 30
DEX 13 +2 Tome +3 Rogue (Required) = 18 + 6 Item = 24
CON 16 +2 Tome = 18 + 6 Item = 24
INT 10 +2 Tome = 12 +6 Item = 18
WIS 6 +2 Tome = 8 +6 Item = 14 (dump stat - will saves will be high and mostly irrelevant on a WF, and AC won't be high enough to matter)
CHA 12 +2 Tome = 14 +6 Item = 20

Hit Points
72 : (R) 6 * 12
48 : (M) 8 * 6
20 : (P) 10 * 2
20 Heroic Durability
---
160

80 Base Con
22 toughness feat
20 toughness enhancements
---
282 (Character Planner Number)

10 GH Favor
60 +6 CON item
30 GFL
45 Shroud HP item
20 Minos Legens
---
447 + Buffs/Pots - Very Acceptable for a Rogue

UMD - Critical for self healing amd ignoral racial restricts
23 Ranks
+5 20 CHA
+4 Greater Heroism
+3 Bunny Hat - or other competence item
+3 Epic Big Hat or other enhancement item
+1 luck (ship buf)
+1 (+2 CHA ship buff)
---
40

Sneak Attack Damage (1d6 = 3.5 Average)
12 Sneak Attack training
21 6d6 for level 12 Rogue
3.5 1d6 for Monk Ninja
7 Acrobat I
---
43.5

Attack Speed
20 % Acrobat
30 % Rogue haste Boost
3 % Opportunist (doublestrike)
5 % Adept of the Wind
15 % Attack Speed from Haste Spell
---
73% (adding them)

Saves
F/R/W
4/8/4 12 Rogue
5/5/5 6 Monk
3/0/0 2 Paladin
7/7/2 Stats 24 CON/24 DEX/14 WIS
5/5/5 Divine Grace: 20 CHA
4/4/4 GH
0/1/0 Haste
3/3/3 Nightshield
2/2/2 Head of Good Fortune
1/1/1 Self Aura of Good
-----
34/36/26

3/3/3 Additional from full Paladin Aura of good
2/2/2 Water Stance (if needed)
------
39/41/31

Skills:
MAX: UMD/Bluff/Diplomacy/Search/Spot/Disable Device
Jump 10 - around that
Open Lock 10 - around that
Concentration 5 - a few points - must be 15 for Shadow Fade
Tumble must have 1 point - all thats needed
Some Hide and Move Silently as well
Balance 4 - take some at level 1 if you want to make leveling easier
- but at the end it will be unneeded because of falling down immunity

If you know where every trap is you can skip or reduce Spot - but even then it's nice to find the hidden monsters

Enhancements
Monk:
- Porous Soul - PreReq
- Adept of Wind/Rock/Flame
- Ninja Spy I
Paladin
- Toughness
Rogue
- Haste IV
- Skill Bosst III
- Subtle Backstabbing III
- Extra Action Boost I
- Faster Sneaking I
- Sneak Attack Training IV
- DEX III - PreReq
- Item Defense I
- Thief Acrobat II
Skills
- Balance II - PreReq
- Jump II - PreReq
- Tumble II - PreReq
Warforged
- Racial Toughness I
- Healers Friend I
- Power Attack II
- Great Weapon Aptitude I

Feel free to comment

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Ironwood
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 6 Monk \ 12 Rogue)
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 20
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 17 24
Dexterity 13 18
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 6 8
Charisma 12 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I

[Felix_the_Rakshasa]

I like it!

Have you actually played the character out? or just theory-crafting it?

[OldAquarian]

I like it!

Have you actually played the character out? or just theory-crafting it?

Glad you like it. Generally I post a build and then don't start playing it until the comments, and updates from them, slow down. Or, I get distracted with another build idea :)


BTW, anyone know the answers to the questions in my OP:
1) How do Ninja Shadow Fade and Blur stack (40% or 45% miss chance combined)?
2) How do the attack speeds stack (Is it 73% or is it multiplicative or some other way)?

Or any other comments/improvements?

[The_Brave2]

Wouldnt 2 Fighter for fighter haste boost make more sense than 2 paladin? your LoH are going to... well. be terrible, along with other paladin abilities. Will get you extra Feats, could be use on toughness if you are looking for more survive-ability.

I Believe the Shadow fade ability is incorp not blur effect, and incorp and blur do stack as far as i know.

Edit: Was unaware of the blur 'clickie' but if it is calling it blur it probably doesn't stack

[OldAquarian]

Wouldnt 2 Fighter for fighter haste boost make more sense than 2 paladin? your LoH are going to... well. be terrible, along with other paladin abilities. Will get you extra Feats, could be use on toughness if you are looking for more survive-ability.

I Believe the Shadow fade ability is incorp not blur effect, and incorp and blur do stack as far as i know.

Edit: Was unaware of the blur 'clickie' but if it is calling it blur it probably doesn't stack

This build has Rogue Haste IV

Clickies: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275586

2 Fighter has lower survivability than 2 Paladin

[The_Brave2]

This build has Rogue Haste IV

Clickies: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275586

2 Fighter has lower survivability than 2 Paladin


Ah, forgot rogue got the haste boost also, Is your CHA going to be high enough that the CHA bonus to your saves is going to affect your survivability more than an possible 2 toughness feats? (taking THF and GTHF from the fighter feats and taking toughness in other places.

Other option could be to go ranger2 for sprint boost/FE, running away is good for surviving :P

447 HP seems a little on the low end, even with good saves I wouldn't roll a mele with under 500. Could work with this build's shadow fade, exc.

Seems like a solid build. :D

[LordTigerDawn]

Just a Few points:

I would suggest dropping cleave, g cleave, and quick draw (especially qdraw). Take toughness instead. Your HP needs to be higher.

You say faster boosts qdraw is faster boosts, but that was true before they fixed cleave. With the same update, you are better off hitting boost, then using trip/sunder/cleave/g cleave right away. No waiting. An argument can be made about using qdraw for swapping weapons, but you do not have a stunning feat so I am assuming that is not your plan.

Cleave and g cleave are nice early lvls but are really a waste in later ones.

[Vissarion]

BTW, anyone know the answers to the questions in my OP:
1) How do Ninja Shadow Fade and Blur stack (40% or 45% miss chance combined)?
2) How do the attack speeds stack (Is it 73% or is it multiplicative or some other way)?

1. They stack, but strangely. In essence, they are applied separately, so you'll have a roll for the 25% miss chance from Shadow Fade, and then another roll for Blur/Displacement (I don't know which one takes precedence, but shouldn't matter much for the end result).

So you'd get hit 75% of the time with Shadow Fade, and then 20% of that 75% you'd be missed due to Blur. It works out to about 40% miss chance. (Or 62.5 for Displacement + Shadow Fade).

2. Attack speed bonuses stack multiplicatively, and there is some order of precedence among them, but I am not 100% sure what it is. This would be my hypothesis:

Base Attack Speed + Haste (Or Wind Stance) + Acrobat would form the modified base.

Double strike chances (Opportunist + Wind Stance) would be calculated after determining the modified base.

Haste Boost would apply last.

So assuming 102 swings per minute as the standard hasted THF:

102 x .2 (Acrobat II) = 20.4 = 122.4 SPM

122.4 x .08 (Doublestrike) = 9.792 = 132.192

~132 x .3 (Boost) = 39.7 = 171.7 SPM while Haste Boost is active.

You'd obviously have to modify it to a more reasonable number given boost cooldowns, but I think this is how the math should work.

[Dirichlet]

Glad you like it. Generally I post a build and then don't start playing it until the comments, and updates from them, slow down. Or, I get distracted with another build idea :)


BTW, anyone know the answers to the questions in my OP:
1) How do Ninja Shadow Fade and Blur stack (40% or 45% miss chance combined)?
2) How do the attack speeds stack (Is it 73% or is it multiplicative or some other way)?

Or any other comments/improvements?

I think it's 40%. You get seperate messages above your head based on which effect has caused a mob to miss, which leads me to believe they are rolled seperately. I'm not sure about that though. It wouldn't be easy to test either, given that 40% and 45% are well within the realms of experimental variance. I can't help you on attack speeds.

Have you considered a Hurtlocker type split? You lose Shadow Fade, but gain a rank of Divine Might and better smites (which I doubt you'd use much on this build; 6 Monk already gives you a lot of buttons to push). Crucially, you get to keep that 13th Rogue level, which is the only thing I'm wary about with this build. You're basically trading Improved Evasion for Divine Grace, which is reasonable enough. It's just a shame you can't get both (without giving up Opportunist anyway). It seems "wrong" to me to stop at 12 Rogue, but I guess you've considered that already.

Also seems funny to me that the Hurtlocker takes Acrobat but doesn't use sticks... surely there's potential there :)

The Hurtlocker: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2345304&postcount=1

[OldAquarian]

Also seems funny to me that the Hurtlocker takes Acrobat but doesn't use sticks... surely there's potential there :)

The Hurtlocker: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2345304&postcount=1

Lol, I heard of the Hurtlocker when I came up with the stick version: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247718

[Calebro]

I have found that taking THF feats on an acrobat is a mistake.
The glancing blows draw too much aggro from mobs that would have otherwise aggro'd on something else.
Sneak attacking characters need to be used like a scalpel, not like a chainsaw, otherwise they'll lose their sneak attacks and just end up doing craptastic DPS with a craptastic weapon.

[Failedlegend]

I would recommend dropping either Bluff or Diplo (with the changes to bluff im not sure which is better now but they share a cooldown) and maxing concentration it really makes a big difference to have that extra 18 Ki (23-5) 23+15(Item)+7(Con Mod) = 45 while your maximum is 60 making it much easier for you as a Air Stance Monk to keep your ki abilities going.

[whomhead]

I have found that taking THF feats on an acrobat is a mistake.
The glancing blows draw too much aggro from mobs that would have otherwise aggro'd on something else.
Sneak attacking characters need to be used like a scalpel, not like a chainsaw, otherwise they'll lose their sneak attacks and just end up doing craptastic DPS with a craptastic weapon.

I think this makes a lot of sense. What did you take with the extra 3 feats?

[OldAquarian]

I have found that taking THF feats on an acrobat is a mistake.
The glancing blows draw too much aggro from mobs that would have otherwise aggro'd on something else.
Sneak attacking characters need to be used like a scalpel, not like a chainsaw, otherwise they'll lose their sneak attacks and just end up doing craptastic DPS with a craptastic weapon.

The problem might be using a two handed weapon as they increase the chance of hitting untagged mobs
but taking the THF line doesn't increase the chance of the tag, just the damage
So you would have just as many mobs on you, with or without, the THF line

In my experience, it depends on positioning and choice of who is in your party

[Jaid314]

you say you're building a survival-based rogue, but you took opportunist instead of improved evasion?

[Failedlegend]

you say you're building a survival-based rogue, but you took opportunist instead of improved evasion?

heh I was wondering that to.

[OldAquarian]

Having high saves evasion pays as you take no damage on a save.
But, having high saves and having a chance to take 1/2 damage on the occasional fail didn't seem worth losing the dps
It's a balance, too much survival and you don't do enough dps to contribute, and you become a doorstop.

Aside: Noted in OP that Cloudkill spell adds more miss chance and added Saves breakdown

[OldAquarian]

Just for comparison - you can take a look at a recent 13 Rogue/7 Monk build:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=332308

[OldAquarian]

Minor update - took: Rogue Item Defense I
since staves are Wood and break faster than normal weapons

Any other suggestions?

[wax_on_wax_off]

1. They stack, but strangely. In essence, they are applied separately, so you'll have a roll for the 25% miss chance from Shadow Fade, and then another roll for Blur/Displacement (I don't know which one takes precedence, but shouldn't matter much for the end result).

So you'd get hit 75% of the time with Shadow Fade, and then 20% of that 75% you'd be missed due to Blur. It works out to about 40% miss chance. (Or 62.5 for Displacement + Shadow Fade).

2. Attack speed bonuses stack multiplicatively, and there is some order of precedence among them, but I am not 100% sure what it is. This would be my hypothesis:

Base Attack Speed + Haste (Or Wind Stance) + Acrobat would form the modified base.

Double strike chances (Opportunist + Wind Stance) would be calculated after determining the modified base.

Haste Boost would apply last.

So assuming 102 swings per minute as the standard hasted THF:

102 x .2 (Acrobat II) = 20.4 = 122.4 SPM

122.4 x .08 (Doublestrike) = 9.792 = 132.192

~132 x .3 (Boost) = 39.7 = 171.7 SPM while Haste Boost is active.

You'd obviously have to modify it to a more reasonable number given boost cooldowns, but I think this is how the math should work.

For information on attack speed I'd suggest to look at this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144) thread.

From this, we can see that you will have 35% constant attack speed boost (acrobat + haste spell) for 117.8 attacks/minute. Add to this 8% doublestrike (opportunist + adept of wind) gives 117.8*1.08=127.224. Then you have 6*20 seconds of 30% rogue haste boost for 65% haste boost for 144.6 attacks/minute (can't use the chart for that one). Add doublestrike to that for ~156 attacks/minute while haste boost is active.

Still, it doesn't really compare to 111.3*1.88=209.24 attacks/minute for unarmed (including doublestrike and offhand attacks). During haste boosts it jumps up to 147.5*1.88=277.3 attacks/minute!

Obviously you'll do more damage per hit with 1.5*strength modifier and glancing blows but you'd have to do 60% more damage on each hit I think to remain comparable. Previously this was easier to accomplish with the difficulty in acquiring ideal handwraps (+5 anarchic burst silver threaded of GLOB for instance coupled with holy burst and shocking burst ToD rings) but now with cannith crafting it is easier to get closer to the ideal wraps than what it was.

[Jaid314]

i don't think anyone out there is making a staff build with the expectation of doing *more* damage. at least, i hope they're not; that's the fast road to disappointment.

[wax_on_wax_off]

i don't think anyone out there is making a staff build with the expectation of doing *more* damage. at least, i hope they're not; that's the fast road to disappointment.

Yeah, I was worried it might be misinterpreted. I wasn't referring to its capacity as a top DPS build but more along the lines that a similarly themed unarmed build could be just as survivable but have a significant advantage in attacks/minute (and hence usually DPS).

[OldAquarian]

Latest sentiment is that only one concealment works with incorporeal - OP updated with concealment list

[OldAquarian]

Was considering reconfiguring to have the full THF build and the full TWF line for unarmed/ssword
I could drop both cleaves and quickdraw
but I can't
Working backwards 18 gTWF 15 gTHF 12 IC:Blunt 9 iTWF 6 ???? Need 6 BAB for iTHF (or iTWF)
None of the monk feats are high BAB, and even taking 4 monk/2 pally to start is only a 5 BAB

Any thoughts?
(would it be worthwhile?/is it possible?)

[Calebro]

Was considering reconfiguring to have the full THF build and the full TWF line for unarmed/ssword
I could drop both cleaves and quickdraw
but I can't
Working backwards 18 gTWF 15 gTHF 12 IC:Blunt 9 iTWF 6 ???? Need 6 BAB for iTHF (or iTWF)
None of the monk feats are high BAB, and even taking 4 monk/2 pally to start is only a 5 BAB

Any thoughts?
(would it be worthwhile?/is it possible?)

Drop the THF feats. Like I said before, they do more harm than good on a build like this anyway. You can still use staves quite effectively without them, and doing so will allow you to have unarmed/sswords as an option.
And quite frankly, having played a smilar build myself, you'll be using unarmed/sswords more often anyway and staves will be demoted to extreme situational use. Basically, if you would use a staff on it, wraps are even better.

[OldAquarian]

Drop the THF feats. Like I said before, they do more harm than good on a build like this anyway. You can still use staves quite effectively without them, and doing so will allow you to have unarmed/sswords as an option.
And quite frankly, having played a smilar build myself, you'll be using unarmed/sswords more often anyway and staves will be demoted to extreme situational use. Basically, if you would use a staff on it, wraps are even better.

So changed it around a bit to two handed - and switched to more monk since assassin II wasn't that exciting
Ended up a 12 Monk(Ninja II)/7 Rogue(Assn I)/1 Ranger and a half elf(pally)
Different enough to get it's own thread

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=333149

Trying to refit something a bit closer to this build for THF - but haven't liked anything yet