Caale - TWF'ing evasion AC/hate tank

[Calebro]

Note (8/29/2011): With some changes coming to DoS in U11, some aspects of this build will change. All of the changes will be positive. I will update this post to reflect those changes when they go live.

This build posted by request.
Caale combines amazing defenses with a solid enough offense that he can still carry his weight when not tanking via 3d6+8 sneak attacks rather than effectively piking if no tank is needed, which is what most AC tanks do in that situation.

As far as AC builds go, this requires much less gear than usual. It is completely feasible that even a first life could attain this gear in a reasonable amount of time.
No tomes were used beyond a +1 Int @ lvl 3 and a full set of +2's at lvl 7.
Shown below is both a regular gear set-up and an epic gear set. The epic gear set is completely optional, as the normal gear set will work perfectly well.

TWF'ing with Dual scimmys and up to approximately 300% hate ensures that you have aggro when you want it.
Bosses usually only hit you on a 20, and you usually only fail a save on a 1, making life easy on your healers.

Caale is a viable AC tank for the more casual gamer, or the player that doesn't want to grind a bunch of epics, while also working for the player that does enjoy epics with a few simple gear swaps. If epics are your thing, feel free to adjust the epic gear set as you see fit.

34 point Half-elven Paladin 18 / Monk 2

Str 15 +5 levels +2 tome +1 AP +6 item +4 stance +2 yugo +2 ship = 37 +3 profane <epic set> = 40 +6 titan's grip = 46 boosted
Dex 15 +2 tome +1 AP +6 item +2 yugo +2 ship = 28
Con 14 +2 tome +6 item +3 exc +4 stance +2 yugo +2 ship = 33 +1 <epic set> = 34
Int 11 +2 tome = 13
Wis 13 +2 tome +1 AP +6 item +2 yugo +2 ship = 26 +2 exc <epic set> = 28
Cha 12 +2 tome +6 item +1 exc +2 ship = 23 +1 <epic set> 24

On a 32 point build, start with a 14 Str.
On a 36 point build, start with a 14 Cha and drop the Intim AP in favor of DM2.
If no level or skills are listed, take a Pally level and spend the same skill points as the level prior.

L1. Monk
Feats: passive past life monk, h-e dilly rogue, toughness, TWF
Skills: Balance +3, Intim +2, Jump +4, Tumble +1, UMD +2
L2. Pally, Intim +1, UMD +0.5
L3. Pally, Dodge (+1 Int tome)
L4. Pally, Intim +2, UMD +0.5
L6. Pally, Power Attack, Balance +0.5, Intim +1, UMD +0.5
L7. Pally (all +2 tomes)
L8. Monk, Combat Expertise, Balance +5
L9. Pally, ITWF, Intim +2, UMD +0.5
L10. Pally, Balance +0.5, Intim +1, UMD +0.5
L12. Pally, Improved crit: slash
L15. Pally, GTWF
L18. Pally, TWDefense
L20. Pally, Intim +1, UMD +0.5, 1 left over

Enhancements:
For the low levels take HotD.
Once you reach Vale, respec to KotC.
Once you get your gear and begin tanking, respec to the following:

Paladin Armor Class Boost III
Undying Call
Follower of the Undying Court
Improved Rogue Dilettante II
Human Adaptability Strength I
Human Improved Recovery II
Human Versatility III
Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Paladin Courage of Good I
Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Paladin Focus of Good I
Paladin Resistance of Good III
Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Paladin Defender of Siberyys III
Racial Toughness II
Improved Intimidate II
Half-Elf Rogue Dexterity I
Monk Wisdom I
Paladin Toughness III
Paladin Divine Might I

Skills:
Balance: 14 ranks +9 dex +4 GH +10 boots +2 luck +2 bard = 41
Intimidate: 23 ranks + 7 cha + 4 gh + 2 ap + 15 CCove scimmy swap + 2 luck +2 bard + 5 gs cha skills = 60
UMD: 11 ranks + 7 cha + 4 gh + 5 gloves + 2 luck +2 bard + 5 gs cha skills = 36 +4 boosted = 40
Threat: 100% normal +25% DoS +100% Righteousness +50% stance +15% ToD set +50% Intim = 140% to approximately 300% depending
Healing Amp: 100% normal + 20% AP (+ 100% stance) = 120% - 220%
DR: 20/epic situational temporary stance

*****Normal Gear Setup
Helm: Minos
Necklace: GS Min2 45 HP
---Necklace <swap for beholders>: Silver Flame
Goggles <DPS>: Tharne's
---Goggles <tanking and UMD>: GS ConOp <+6 wis, +5 cha skills, 150 elemental sp, blindness/disease immunity>
Belt: Belt of the Defender of Siberys: +6 Con, GFL
Boots <swap slot>: Gyroscopic boots of striding / anchoring / feather falling / GS haste
Gloves <swap slot>: +6 dex / 7 fingered
Cloak: +6 cha
Trinket <DPS>: Bloodstone
---Trinket <tanking>: HoGF / +2 dodge trinket if you have the crafting levels
Ring 1: Band of Siberys <crafted exceptional Con +2>
Ring 2: Chattering Ring
Bracers: AC 8
Armor: Icy Raiments
Main hand: crafted HsEoB / crafted Strength Sapping silver of Pure Good (situational if ship buffs are lost, etc)
Off Hand: Min2 holy, +4 AC, acid blast

*****Epic Gear Setup
Helm: Epic Helm of Frost <+1 exc con>
Necklace: GS Min2 45 HP
---Necklace <swap for beholders>: Silver Flame
Goggles <DPS>: Tharne's
---Goggles <tanking> Epic Goggles of Time Sensing <+6 wis>, <+6 dex>
---Goggles <UMD swap>: GS ConOp <+6 wis, +5 cha skills, 150 elemental sp, blindness/disease immunity>
Belt: Belt of the Defender of Siberys: +6 Con, GFL
Boots <swap slot>: Gyroscopic boots of striding / anchoring / feather falling / GS haste
Gloves: Epic Charged Gauntlets <+1 exc str>
---Gloves <UMD swap>: 7 fingered
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak <toughness>
Trinket <DPS>: Bloodstone
---Trinket <tanking>: HoGF / +2 dodge trinket if you have the crafting levels
Ring 1: Band of Siberys <crafted exceptional Con +2>
Ring 2: Chattering Ring
Bracers: AC 8
Armor: Icy Raiments
Main hand: crafted HsEoB / crafted Strength Sapping silver of Pure Good (situational if ship buffs are lost, etc)
Off Hand: Min2 holy, +4 AC, acid blast

Saves: All standing at 40+ I don't feel like doing the math, but they'll be plenty high enough.

Hit Points
16 Monk
180 Paladin
20 Heroic Vitality
10 Draconic Vitality
30 GFL
160 Con
22 Toughness Feat
50 Toughness class enh
20 Toughness item enhancement
5 Tortoise
45 Shroud
558 STANDING
40 Def stance
20 Ship buffs
40 Yugoloth Pot
658

AC with normal (non-epic) gear set
10 base
8 Armor Bonus
5 prot
7 dex
6 wis
6 aura
4 insight
1 dodge feat
1 dodge alchemical ritual
4 dodge gear Icy
3 dodge gear Chattering
1 TWDefense
56 STANDING
5 CE feat
4 Shield wand
2 DoS3 ToD set
3 barkskin pot
1 haste
2 luck Recitation wand
4 dodge enhancement DoS3 stance
77 AC MODE
1 wis Yugo pot (barkskin)
1 wis Yugo pot (wisdom)
1 dex Yugo pot
80 STANDING MAX SELF BUFFED, Horoth only hits you on a 20 on normal
1 Ranger barkskin
4 Inspire Heroics
85 MAX RAID BUFFED, Horoth only hits you on a 19 on hard

Situational adjustments to AC, which affect the numbers shown above:
A few of these in combination and Horoth only hits you on a 20 on elite
+5 ship buffs
+3 effective if Horoth is exhausted (and if the party's caster is any good, then he should be)
-----------------------
effective 93 possible elite Horoth only hits you on a 19 or 20

+4 human/pally AC boost (available for up to 2 minutes)
+3 effective if Strength Sapping procs
-----------------------
effective 100 possible, situationally

Epic gear set-up
3 profane (abashi set)
1 exc Wis
---------------------
effective 104 possible in epic gear

2 Dodge trinket
--------------------
effective 106 situationally possible in epic gear with sufficient crafting levels to make a dodge +2 trinket

[Hordo]

That's right folks...he's tortured the guild, now it's your turn! ;)

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Nice evasion pally build. It is interesting to compare builds like Caale with Grumblegut or Hurtlocker type builds. Those are quite different. I wasn't sure a STR-based Evasion Paladin could pull hard or elite horoth level AC. Now I see. :)

[Statix]

Interesting build, thanks for sharing it... most of that gear seems easy enough to aquire but to make it all epic would be a bit of a hassle unless you have the toons to farm for tokens.

Still, it's a good build I'll consider borrowing some of it for my own tank sometime.

[Calebro]

Interesting build, thanks for sharing it... most of that gear seems easy enough to aquire but to make it all epic would be a bit of a hassle unless you have the toons to farm for tokens.

Still, it's a good build I'll consider borrowing some of it for my own tank sometime.

That's exactly why I separated the norml gear set from the epic gear set and calculated AC with the normal set.
The non-epic set is reasonable to acquire and still effective. If you want to grind it out, the epic set enhances your stats and AC a bit, but it is absolutely optional.

[broolthebeast]

he's alright.. I've dragged him along thru a few quests.... :D

Anyways, its a solid build. Seen it in action.

[unbongwah]

The only thing I don't like is only having base CHA 12+2 / Divine Might I; would it be worth giving up some WIS for more CHA to get higher DM? Or are APs so tight that you can't fit in DM II+ anyway?

[Calebro]

The only thing I don't like is only having base CHA 12+2 / Divine Might I; would it be worth giving up some WIS for more CHA to get higher DM? Or are APs so tight that you can't fit in DM II+ anyway?

First, he's already skirting the line on reliably accessible top tier AC.
Second, I'd be hard pressed to decide where to find the AP to even get it.
And remember, he'll be pushing 250-300% hate when tanking, so the actual tanking DPS can suffer a little without much of an issue. You don't have to be doing the most damage. You just have to make them *think* you are. For all intents and purposes, Horoth will think you're swinging 5 or 6 scimitars at him, so that point of AC is more important to me than another +2 damage.

On a 36 point build you could use the extra 2 point from there and keep Str at 15, and I suppose the Intim enhancements could go, but I'd be hesitant to give anything else up for it.
Or, on a 34 point build, of you decide not to grind out the epic gear then your Str will be an odd number, so you can save 2ap from human Str if you wanted. But that still leaves you with the loss to another stat, so it isn't a great idea in my mind either.
All in all, I'd say that a 36 point build could do it and keep everything else in place, but less than that will change the dynamic of the numbers more than I'd be comfortable with. And because this is a viable 32 point build as well, I'm hesitant to change the dynamic much in that respect.

And don't forget that the vast majority of builds which can achieve this type of AC are finesse builds, so in effect you already have all the DM you need in comparison.

[FrozenNova]

This is similar to how I'd envision a 34pt Scion.

This build gains over a 34pt scion:
2 AC from Feats
1 AC from +2 wisdom, -2 cha
Gear room for slightly more threat
Helf sneak damage
2 Strength

This build loses:
+0.1 base amp
Khopesh
Quicken/maximize - significant cure-based replenishing healing
Divine Might II / III

Little lost with the hp from con, though.
160 = 8 con mod = 26 con = 14 + 6 item + 2 tome + 2 exceptional + 1 exceptional + 1 adaptability?
But gear doesn't include a +1 exceptional con, and the enhancement isn't in your list.
It'd be nice to know what since whatever it is, Raeyal's still missing it =P

Also - glorious stand is an actual *2 stacking amp, rather than just +100%.

Anyway, if I could bear to part with my torc-healing, khopesh collection and purebred human good looks, I'd roll this up in an instant. =P

[maddmatt70]

The goal should not be hard Horoth, but rather elite Horoth. This build can do elite, but you need to swap and add epic gear to do so. The dodge trinket +2 is a good idea. I would also make an epic envenomed cloak, Epic time sensing goggle, epic scorched bracer, epic charged gauntlet. All of that would add 6 or so to your raid ac which would put you at 91 with Inspire Heroics and a ranger barkskin. 90 ac should be your goal.

[Calebro]

The goal should not be hard Horoth, but rather elite Horoth. This build can do elite, but you need to swap and add epic gear to do so. The dodge trinket +2 is a good idea. I would also make an epic envenomed cloak, Epic time sensing goggle, epic scorched bracer, epic charged gauntlet. All of that would add 6 or so to your raid ac which would put you at 91 with Inspire Heroics and a ranger barkskin. 90 ac should be your goal.

Look at the numbers again Matt. Not only can he reach 90ac, he can surpass it. It all depends on your gear.
Let's be honest here. The vast majority of players don't care about elite Horoth. Under the gear shown from one set, they can see that this build will suit their needs if they want to try it.

Shown below is both a regular gear set-up and an epic gear set. The epic gear set is completely optional, as the normal gear set will work perfectly well.
There are a few people that do care about elite Horoth, and under the other gear set they can see that this build can also be made to suit their needs as well.

Your goal of 90 was reached and passed.
From a total 106 effective AC possible, 6 are the "effective" and 4 are from boost. That leaves the standing potential at 96 with ship buffs, and 91 without. It just wasn't all included in the original number to show that a variety of different players could make use of this, depending on how far they wanted to take it.

[Calebro]

Little lost with the hp from con, though.
160 = 8 con mod = 26 con = 14 + 6 item + 2 tome + 2 exceptional + 1 exceptional + 1 adaptability?
But gear doesn't include a +1 exceptional con, and the enhancement isn't in your list. the epic set does, and you're right about Gadapt as I didn't take it, nor did I count it. I simply mislabeled the +3 exc and +1 epic set that should have read +2 exc and +2 epic set. It doesn't change the numbers at all.
It'd be nice to know what since whatever it is, Raeyal's still missing it =P

Also - glorious stand is an actual *2 stacking amp, rather than just +100%.

Anyway, if I could bear to part with my torc-healing, khopesh collection and purebred human good looks, I'd roll this up in an instant. =P

The Glorious Stand: calling it +100% is simple enough.

[maddmatt70]

Look at the numbers again Matt. Not only can he reach 90ac, he can surpass it. It all depends on your gear.
Let's be honest here. The vast majority of players don't care about elite Horoth. Under the gear shown from one set, they can see that this build will suit their needs if they want to try it.

There are a few people that do care about elite Horoth, and under the other gear set they can see that this build can also be made to suit their needs as well.

Your goal of 90 was reached and passed.
From a total 106 effective AC possible, 6 are the "effective" and 4 are from boost. That leaves the standing potential at 96 with ship buffs, and 91 without. It just wasn't all included in the original number to show that a variety of different players could make use of this, depending on how far they wanted to take it.

No, the goal is 90 ac with just Inspire heroics, boosts run out, and other then exhaustion which always happens on elite tower raids anyway the rest are not reliable. With ship buffs you have an 87 so this just needs a little bit more oompf really. Do not cover this up with a variety of players as an excuse beccause normal and hard ac is less valuable because with the bosses less hit points the healers often do not have to use resources anyway on those difficulties. There really is not a point to making an ac charcter if you do not plan to run this quest on elite just make a high dps character with good hit points and decent healing amp and call it a day. Ac requires a huge investment and is not really that useful outside of two raids in ddo so if you do not plan on running these raids where ac makes an impact what is the point.

[Calebro]

No, the goal is 90 ac with just Inspire heroics, boosts run out, and other then exhaustion which always happens on elite tower raids anyway the rest are not reliable.

<snip>

Seriously. Look at the numbers again.

Better yet, I'll repost them in a different format, just for you.


AC with epic set (notice the other breakdown is listed as the normal set, with the epic items adjusted later)
10 base
8 Armor Bonus
5 prot
7 dex
7 wis
6 aura
4 insight
1 dodge feat
1 dodge alchemical ritual
4 dodge gear Icy
3 dodge gear Chattering
2 dodge trinket
1 TWDefense
3 profane (abashai)
62 STANDING
5 CE feat
4 Shield wand
2 DoS3 ToD set
3 barkskin pot
1 haste
2 luck Recitation wand
4 dodge enhancement DoS3 stance
83 AC MODE
1 wis Yugo pot (barkskin)
1 wis Yugo pot (wisdom)
1 dex Yugo pot
86 STANDING MAX SELF BUFFED
1 Ranger barkskin
4 Inspire Heroics
91 MAX RAID BUFFED

Situational adjustments to AC, which affect the numbers shown above:
+5 ship buffs
+4 human/pally AC boost (available for up to 2 minutes)
+3 effective if Horoth is exhausted
+3 effective if Strength Sapping procs
-----------------------
106 effective possible

Happy now? All I did was move the epic adjustment into the actual baseline numbers. It's the exact same thing.

[maddmatt70]

Recitation is not viable and the ranger barkskin really is not either because many times you will go without a ranger. You added one of the items the +2 dodge trinket and +3 profane bonus and with ship buffs which add a +2 to ac not +5 and which are viable on an ac toon you get there to 90 ac. I stated that the build could get there but your gear initially was not quite high enough to get there. AC is all about getting to the threshold..

[FrozenNova]

Recitation is not viable and the ranger barkskin really is not either because many times you will go without a ranger. You added one of the items the +2 dodge trinket and +3 profane bonus and with ship buffs which add a +2 to ac not +5 and which are viable on an ac toon you get there to 90 ac. I stated that the build could get there but your gear initially was not quite high enough to get there. AC is all about getting to the threshold..

Not viable? On my divines I make a point of providing recitation for ac tanks.

Ship buffs:
Deneith female
Dwarven Battlemaster
Kobold Shaman
+2 Dex shrine
+2 wis shrine
= 5 AC

Wis Yugo pot provides 4 points of barkskin. 1 AC loss on condition of not having a ranger is nothing disasterous.

[Calebro]

Recitation is not viable and the ranger barkskin really is not either because many times you will go without a ranger. You added one of the items the +2 dodge trinket and +3 profane bonus and with ship buffs which add a +2 to ac not +5 and which are viable on an ac toon you get there to 90 ac. I stated that the build could get there but your gear initially was not quite high enough to get there. AC is all about getting to the threshold..

Recitation isn't viable? One of the healers can't run up every 4 minutes or so and drop one on you? I added it as a wand because it's possible for you to add it yourself if you need to, not because you'll be wand whipping it.
And out of curiosity, I just checked Grumblegut for his breakdown. Why is it that you can reliably add recitation to your AC toon but I can't?

Maybe your ship doesn't have +5 worth of AC boni on it, but ours does.

OK, so you don't want to add the extra +1 from a full ranger barkskin. That's fine. And again I'll ask why it's OK for your AC toon to add that in, but it's not OK here.... But regardless he still meets your 90ac thresh hold.
And the gear initially DID meet that thresh hold. Look at the last edit time. It was already there.

Every single point that you've argued so far is either incorrect and/or contradicted by your own AC build.
At this point I just think you're upset that you didn't read the breakdown correctly and now you're trying to talk your way out of it.
If you have nothing else constructive to say I'd prefer if you simply left this thread alone.

[Hordo]

Someone is jealous Cale! Or has a man-crush maybe? :eek::rolleyes::D

[Claymorep]

I like a lot your idea, but it seems to me a bit too single boss oriented... Your idea is to hate tank horoth with good success on sustaining his fists and this goal is perfectly achieved, but You lack a lot in dps to be of real use in other quests.
In my opinion with so low charisma you'll take a lot of damage from his spells and the evasion will be near uselss as it will be hard to save.
Moreover You consider to use wisdom yugo potions that gives a -4 to reflex too.
Horoth is well know for his fists but so much as his dots spells that are near 200 damage every 2 secs in normal in combo with others spells and dps.

After this update, as bosses will have meta feats, saves are important as much if not more ac vs that tipe of boss.

I repeat: I like Your well planned idea, but it seems too single boss oriented and what You'll achive is a too big loss in all others sides.

Ps. Where that insight bonus come from? As I'm studiing a similar build for a future pally and want to see if I can reach sufficient levels of ac or forget it completely.

[Calebro]

I like a lot your idea, but it seems to me a bit too single boss oriented... Your idea is to hate tank horoth with good success on sustaining his fists and this goal is perfectly achieved, but You lack a lot in dps to be of real use in other quests.
40+ Str, GTWF with dual scimmys, +3d6+8 sneak attacks, PA, Zeal, Divine Favor, Prayer, DM1, Divine Sacrifice, and smites. He does just fine when he's not in tank mode. Not as much as a KotC, but that's the price you pay. He carries his weight, which is plenty to validate his slot in the party.

In my opinion with so low charisma you'll take a lot of damage from his spells and the evasion will be near uselss as it will be hard to save.
Moreover You consider to use wisdom yugo potions that gives a -4 to reflex too.
Even with the -4 from the Yugo pots, hie reflex saves, and all other saves, are good enough to only fail on a one, regardless of his slightly lower starting Cha.

Horoth is well know for his fists but so much as his dots spells that are near 200 damage every 2 secs in normal in combo with others spells and dps.
No, he doesn't do that much damage on Normal, and especially not when you remove the melee damage from the equation and only fail an evasion roll on a one.

After this update, as bosses will have meta feats, saves are important as much if not more ac vs that tipe of boss.
As I've already explained, his saves are fine. And most of the changes to bosses don't apply to all bosses, just select ones that needed a boost. I hardly think anyone would consider Horoth as needing a boost, so he'll probably get a pass on the proposed selective changes with the exception of the metas, which matter a lot less because his saves are high enough.

I repeat: I like Your well planned idea, but it seems too single boss oriented and what You'll achive is a too big loss in all others sides.

Ps. Where that insight bonus come from? As I'm studiing a similar build for a future pally and want to see if I can reach sufficient levels of ac or forget it completely.
Insight is on a Min2, right where you'd expect it to be.

[Claymorep]

My feelings gived me reason as calculating his dps the result is between 1/2 or 3/5 in the best case of a equally top epic geared dps. The lack of exalted smite and dm 1 added with the use of scimitars vs kopeshes is too big to compensate with 3d6 extra sneak attacks.

Don't have data to evaluate his saving trows, but near sure he will have some problems to save him in elite as:
Disintegrate need 44 (let's hope he saves this)
Meteor swarm 36 reflex
Chain lighting is a mere 35
Sunburst 33
Shout 48
Delayed blast fireball 35

Dots are: ca 135-230
Medal of cruel pain: ca 45-70
Badge of death: ca 45-80
Honor of fools: ca 45-80

These data are taken from tests done by combat log during some elite runs. They aren't perfectly (for example vs a disintegrate a 2+49 was enought but a 7+35 was not) and had some deduction too by Sirgog, other guilds and wiki, so don't take them as law, but they are a good approximation.

His build is a great duty and nothing is wrong, the fact is that if he is doing this build for vod or tod it's a good build with the limits tanks have from the game mechanics, not his foult. As I said I'm studiing a similar build but I think if I can't hit his ac numbers (that are very very good for a pally) without sacrifiing too much saves I'll select a dr/saves/evasion guy that can stay around 450 dps (near 85/90% of real dps).

Edit. Forgot a personal consideration... At the state of the game seems no real use of a near pure tank and the ac mechanic is so gear-extensive that is anyway a no way to follow during normal questing. A good mix about pally should be dps and ac build that is away from possibilities at the state of the game. A dos is a nice pre, but even in not rushing zerging quests fell too limited. Ty a lot for some ideas I din't considerate.

[Calebro]

Don't have data to evaluate his saving trows, but near sure he will have some problems to save him in elite as:
Disintegrate need 44 (let's hope he saves this)
Meteor swarm 36 reflex
Chain lighting is a mere 35
Sunburst 33
Shout 48
Delayed blast fireball 35

As it says in the OP, his saves are high enough. He has evasion and is only failing on a 1.
Get his AC high enough and he's only getting hit on a 20 (and it is possible to do so).
That removes the majority of the spell damage and the majority of the melee damage from the equation.
With exceptions from spike damage due to those two occurrences mentioned above, DoTs are the only thing he will take damage from.


Saves
Fort Ref Will
12 6 6 Paladin
3 3 3 Monk
6 6 6 Aura
5 5 5 Cha
4 4 4 GH
2 2 2 Luck
10 7 7 Stat
5 5 5 Resist Item
1 1 1 Alchemical Resist
0 1 0 haste
3 3 3 sacred/stance
2 2 2 Protection from evil
51 43 42 STANDING
2 2 2 Ship Buffs (stat boosts and kobold)
-4 -4 Yugoloth Pot
53 41 40

And that's in the non-epic gear setup without any exceptional bonuses to anything.
Like I said, his saves are high enough. An extra point or two from a higher Cha isn't going to make a difference.
Shout is the highest Fort save, and he passes that by 5 points.
Meteor Swarm is the highest Ref save, and he passes that by 5 points, even with a yugo pot penalty.

He still only fails on a 1 without the extra Cha, even if he loses his ship buffs. So like the OP says, they are plenty high enough.
Get the Epic gear set and it gets even easier.


My feelings gived me reason as calculating his dps the result is between 1/2 or 3/5 in the best case of a equally top epic geared dps. The lack of exalted smite and dm 1 added with the use of scimitars vs kopeshes is too big to compensate with 3d6 extra sneak attacks.

I haven't verified those numbers, but my instinct is that they're a little low on your end.
Even if they are correct, with the previous information at hand as far as his defensive capabilities, 1/2 - 3/5 of top tier DPS is absolutely acceptable. In fact, it's still higher than you're going to get from a random pugger in most cases, and you're getting it on a nigh-unkillable tank. And as long as he has a little head start, his hate gen will be enough to hold aggro, even with the lower actual DPS values.
1/2 - 3/5 of the top tier DPS is a heck of a lot better than you're going to find on the majority of builds that can achieve these kinds of defenses, and it's better than you're going to find from the majority of random puggers.
So as I stated, he's not top tier DPS by any stretch, but he can carry his weight enough to warrant a party slot without being considered a piker as most AC builds are when not tanking.
3/5 seems a little low-balled to me, but even if it isn't it's acceptable considering the defenses. You have to give a little to get a little.

[Calebro]

With the changes coming to DoS in U11, the weakest point in this build is getting a boost.
+20% HP in DoS3 Superior Defensive Stance will bring his tanking HP to just under 800 (795 if my calculations are correct and the +20% applies after buffs rather than prior to), which will be a most welcome change.

[zehrubens2]

Hey there !
ive never played a tanker before so i was wondering...
Do you think u can tank ANY boss in ddo right now with this build with the "normal" gear listed, not the epics one?
even considering U11.
And one more thing why Dual scimmys and not Dual kopeshes? sry for the noob question lol
thank you cya

[Calebro]

Hey there !
ive never played a tanker before so i was wondering...
Do you think u can tank ANY boss in ddo right now with this build with the "normal" gear listed, not the epics one?
even considering U11.
And one more thing why Dual scimmys and not Dual kopeshes? sry for the noob question lol
thank you cya

With the normal gear set-up, fully buffed with a ranger and bard in the group, his AC potential is 85.
With 5 points from ship buffs, that makes 90.
With a competent arcane to exhaust him for you, that's an effective 93.
In order to be hit only on a 20 by elite Horoth, you need to get to 94.

So in the normal gear set-up, with a competent and balanced party, you'll only get hit by elite Horoth on a 19. Elite Horoth sets the bar at the moment. That's about to change when u11 goes live. I haven't done either of the new raids, so I can't make claims about the numbers on either of those at this time, but from the looks of it, from what research has been done, he'll be fine on normal, and decent on hard.
From what I've seen, there isn't an AC build that I'm aware of that can reach the numbers needed for elite for the new Lord of Blades raid that will be coming.
So to answer your question, Yes. He can handle any non-epic boss in the game at the moment. We'll see whether or not that changes when u11 goes live.

As for scimitars vs khopeshes:
If you want to spend a feat for them and lower your AC by one point, that would be your choice.
Everyone praises khopeshes a bit more than they deserve in my opinion. They're better, but whether or not they so much better that it warrants spending a feat on a feat starved build is up to you. I personally don't think it's worth the feat cost on this build. To be honest, I personally don't think it's worth the feat cost for many builds.
I am in the extreme minority with that opinion.

[zehrubens2]

thank you for your reply =] nice build

[zehrubens2]

hey its me again.
another noob question xD

Combat exprt. and PA stack? u have both for versatility right?
and one more thing the past life monk its for the once per rest click? or it was the past life u had? is it the best past life on this build?
thank you again sry for all the quations

[Calebro]

hey its me again.
another noob question xD

Combat exprt. and PA stack? u have both for versatility right?
and one more thing the past life monk its for the once per rest click? or it was the past life u had? is it the best past life on this build?
thank you again sry for all the quations

Combat Expertise and Power Attack do not stack. They're both combat stances. If you activate one, the other deactivates.
Power Attack is for general use, Combat Expertise is for when you're tanking and need the extra 5 AC that it provides. Depending on party make up and buffs provided, you can run normal raids and some hard raids with PA on rather than CE, and still only be hit on a 20. It all depends on the situation at hand.

The past life feat listed isn't the active, it's the passive. He had a monk past life. I apologize if that confused you.

[RenigadeWolf]

Wouldn't you pull a bit more standard AC out if you wore the Epic Scorched Bracers, and a Mabar cloak? this also gets you 5 DR, Deathblock, Invis guard, Greater Fire resist (for if you die ect) but you do loose +1 Con, +1 to saves (slotting +4 Resistance in something or another. you have more than enough slots) And this also leaves your trinket open to a Bloodstone for a bit higher DPS (or drop into Head of Good Fortune if you feel your saves are too low)

[Calebro]

Wouldn't you pull a bit more standard AC out if you wore the Epic Scorched Bracers, and a Mabar cloak? this also gets you 5 DR, Deathblock, Invis guard, Greater Fire resist (for if you die ect) but you do loose +1 Con, +1 to saves (slotting +4 Resistance in something or another. you have more than enough slots) And this also leaves your trinket open to a Bloodstone for a bit higher DPS (or drop into Head of Good Fortune if you feel your saves are too low)

The Mabar cloak isn't available to every player. Maybe they weren't playing when Mabar was here. Maybe they didn't make one when it was going on. And the Epic Scorched Bracers could easily replace the AC 8 bracers listed.
You could alter the epic gear set in any way you felt the desire to.
This build is designed to be accessible to a player that does not want to grind for a lot of epic gear, and it succeeds at that, being a workable build without a single epic item.
Feel free to alter the epic gear set in any way that you like.

[RenigadeWolf]

The Mabar cloak isn't available to every player. Maybe they weren't playing when Mabar was here. Maybe they didn't make one when it was going on. And the Epic Scorched Bracers could easily replace the AC 8 bracers listed.
You could alter the epic gear set in any way you felt the desire to.
This build is designed to be accessible to a player that does not want to grind for a lot of epic gear, and it succeeds at that, being a workable build without a single epic item.
Feel free to alter the epic gear set in any way that you like.

Was simply curious on your thoughts on the matter. thank you :)

[Calebro]

Was simply curious on your thoughts on the matter. thank you :)

To be honest, I find grinding epics to be annoying at best, and godawful boring at worst. As such, I wanted to design a viable AC tank that didn't need any epic items at all. In so doing, I ended up with what can work as a fist life 32 point build if desired, while still meeting the benchmarks needed for AC tanking, and not being a waste of a slot when not tanking. And all that with what can be considered a minimal gear layout compared to similar builds.
This is an AC tank for a casual player, that can be adjusted for the more hardcore gamer if desired by simply swapping some gear.

[Feithlin]

An option in your gear would be use epic Grim's bracelet on the neck (+3 dodge in u11) and use epic Seal of the earth in place of the chattering ring (+6 natural) or another ToD ring (opening a potential addition of +3 exceptional). You should end up with a bit more AC. The main problem the, though, would be to find a place for your GS HP item.

*Edit: On a further look, you could use epic Scorched bracers with epic Helm of the Frost and epic Charged gauntlets for Abishai, and use the cloak slot for either the epic Cloak of the night. For your HP item, maybe the more efficient would be to drop the epic Googles of time-sensing (loosing 1 AC from the loss of +2 eWis unless you put it into your ToD ring) and replace it with GS con opp HP googles (+6 Wis, +45 HP and con opp).

[paraplegic]

Have you ever tried to tank LOB? if so how it went?

[Calebro]

Have you ever tried to tank LOB? if so how it went?

Not yet. I'm Preemy, and the packs just became available this morning I think.

[Ashro]

how would the base stats be for a 32pt build with no true reincarnation and +3 superior ability tome? Im trying to do the math but im not very good at it

[Calebro]

how would the base stats be for a 32pt build with no true reincarnation and +3 superior ability tome? Im trying to do the math but im not very good at it

32 points and a +3 supreme tome would actually change the build quite a bit due to differing skills and a change to the second monk level.
I'll make some changes for you and post them here.

OK, the problem that I'm running into with 32/+3s is I'm not sure whether you're willing/able to LR later or eat any +1 or +2 tomes before you get your +3s available. If so, it would be built a certain way. If not, it would be built a different way. Basically, if you'd later do an LR or eat a +1 tome earlier, then Dex can start at 14. If not, then it can't.

Let me know what you have to work with / are willing to do, and then I'll make the needed changes.
Are you willing to LR later?
If not, are you willing to buy (from AH or store) any +1 or +2 tomes prior to eating your +3 supreme?

Answering these will help me get the build right for you. Personally I would answer "No" to both of them, but that case leaves a difficult stat distribution initially.

[Ashro]

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually have decided to do the completionist so that would make it a 36pt build if this would be the final life right? That being said, what would the base stats look like with a +3 supreme ability tome to all stats while making use of the +7 dex ring and +7 str gloves from CC t2? Sorry for the confusion regarding the 32 build, thank you for your time.

[Calebro]

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually have decided to do the completionist so that would make it a 36pt build if this would be the final life right? That being said, what would the base stats look like with a +3 supreme ability tome to all stats while making use of the +7 dex ring and +7 str gloves from CC t2? Sorry for the confusion regarding the 32 build, thank you for your time.

Are you asking me to build a 36 point completionist for this for you to look at?
If so, things would be DRASTICALLY different, and would need to be tailor made depending on what you'd have accumulated throughout those other dozen lives. Remember, this is a build tailor made for semi-newbies, not a build designed for a hardcore grinder. A completionist plan would certainly be a completely different build.

And to be honest, you won't have to worry about it for probably about a year unless you're a massive speed leveler/grinder.
From the fact that this would be a 32 point build for you I'm guessing that isn't the case.

So now I'm confused as to what you'd like me to answer, and what direction you want to go in.

[Ashro]

Thanks for the heads up about the completionist. I guess there is a lot more to it than I thought. Im going to run this 32 build you made as is for my pally life. Great build and thanks for putting this together.