Crit Range Revamp and Improved Critical

[Certon]

I've been working through some ideas to balance melee weapons with Improved Critical and I believe I finally have a solution that isn't completely boneheaded, though I accept that no matter the idea, there will be trolls who enjoy belittling everything and anything.

The idea is not to change the weapon damage, crit multiplier, or threat range. The idea is to modify the feat Improved Critical, so that it affects weapons with different crit multipliers differently.

Instead of doubling a crit range, Improved Critical will affect weapons as follows:

x2 weapons get an increase of 3 to their crit range
x3 weapons get an increase of 2 to their crit range
x4 weapons get an increase of 1 to their crit range

This would leave khopesh untouched, as well as scimitar, but it would help weapons like longsword, bastard sword, and greatsword. Quarterstaves would be useful as well.

Anyway, just a quick and dirty thought.

[R0cksteady]

No, that would put things even more out of whack.

Add a crit range tot he epic SoS? Really?

[Aesop]

Well if the thought is to reduce the power of Improved Crit why not just make it improve the Crit range by 1 across the board

on 20 would be on 19 (same)
on 19 would be on 18 (instead of 17)
on 18 would be on 17 (instead of 15)

of course that would completely change how combat flowed and how weapons are viewed and improved. The higher crit range weapons would take a severe nerfing in this way while the low crit range get a proxy buff for just not being as affected by this


Aesop

[kafrielveddicus]

I've been working through some ideas to balance melee weapons with Improved Critical and I believe I finally have a solution that isn't completely boneheaded, though I accept that no matter the idea, there will be trolls who enjoy belittling everything and anything.

The idea is not to change the weapon damage, crit multiplier, or threat range. The idea is to modify the feat Improved Critical, so that it affects weapons with different crit multipliers differently.

Instead of doubling a crit range, Improved Critical will affect weapons as follows:

x2 weapons get an increase of 3 to their crit range
x3 weapons get an increase of 2 to their crit range
x4 weapons get an increase of 1 to their crit range

This would leave khopesh untouched, as well as scimitar, but it would help weapons like longsword, bastard sword, and greatsword. Quarterstaves would be useful as well.

Anyway, just a quick and dirty thought.

Explanation of criticals from a pen and paper perspective;

Critical Threat Range - has something to do with how easy it is to target critical areas with that particular weapon, which may have to do with the speed, shape, weight of the weapon (ie. this is why blunt weapons are less likely to hit a critical area then a slashing weapon)

Critical Damage - is solely based on what kind of damage that weapon can do once it hits a critical area, this is why maces for example only do x2, yet a pick would do x4 <- take any critical area and picture it hit with these two types of weapons which one is going to do more damage a heavy mace or a heavy pick?

Leave criticals as they are, only bring us the original bladed gauntlets from 3.0!!! LOL Crit range started at 17 - 20

[Certon]

No, that would put things even more out of whack.

Add a crit range tot he epic SoS? Really?

It wouldn't stack with the Keen or Impact properties (which would still double crit range.) The greater of the two effects would take precedence. If Improved Crit works on Epic SoS now, then it would in its new incarnation.

[Gauthaag]

I like your creativity, OP, but how much time were u spending on playing and testing those changes?

[DragonTroy]

Explanation of criticals from a pen and paper perspective;

Critical Threat Range - has something to do with how easy it is to target critical areas with that particular weapon, which may have to do with the speed, shape, weight of the weapon (ie. this is why blunt weapons are less likely to hit a critical area then a slashing weapon)

Critical Damage - is solely based on what kind of damage that weapon can do once it hits a critical area, this is why maces for example only do x2, yet a pick would do x4 <- take any critical area and picture it hit with these two types of weapons which one is going to do more damage a heavy mace or a heavy pick?

Leave criticals as they are, only bring us the original bladed gauntlets from 3.0!!! LOL Crit range started at 17 - 20

this makes a lot of sense, gotta agree.

although i would be nice to see bludgeoning get some kind of thing to make up for it. a pick might be able to tear through a critical area much easier and more effectively, but someone punching you and breaking a rib would slow you down or something...

[Missing_Minds]

I like your creativity, OP, but how much time were u spending on playing and testing those changes?

Sounds more like standard MMOs where they try to balance weapon damage to keep character flavor looks such that a dagger could do near the damage of a great axe.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Stacked in PNP iirc. Not being implemented in DDO was some kinda of design/balance/oversight thing on the parts of the DDO designers.

If anything I would welcome a change back to that...but the deluge of Gnerf Melees Crit Range! would be enuff to shut down the servers...

PLEASE GNERF GNANA'S OATMEAL COOKIES! (They are just THAT good, they MUST be OP)

[dkyle]

This would leave khopesh untouched, as well as scimitar, but it would help weapons like longsword, bastard sword, and greatsword.

Quite the contrary. They'd be even worse, relative to other weapons.

Battleaxes, Dwarven Axes, and Greataxes would be better than each of those weapons, respectively, instead of mostly equivalent as they are now.

For example, under your idea, Greatsword would become 16-20/x2, while Greataxe would become 18-20/x3. The Greatsword gets 5 increments of damage from crits per 20 attacks, while the Greataxe would get 6.


Stacked in PNP iirc. Not being implemented in DDO was some kinda of design/balance/oversight thing on the parts of the DDO designers.

No, it didn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen) And it would be blatantly ridiculous if it did.

[Missing_Minds]

Stacked in PNP iirc.

It stacked in 3.0. But not in 3.5+.

Same like arrows and bows in 3.0. Damage stacked. (+5 arrow and +5 bow meant a +10 shot). That got canned also in 3.5+

[Shade]

No, that would put things even more out of whack.

Add a crit range tot he epic SoS? Really?

His idea would nerf the esos actually.

Current: 18-20, = 15-20 with IC
His: 18-20 = 16-20 with IC

[karnokvolrath]

To tell you the truth they need to add greensteel decon and just revamp the whole thing imo. As it is right now there are only a handful of useful weapons. I understand they where trying to stick with the flavor of DnD in the start but thats completely out of the window at this point.

Ddo needs to bring in a math expert and weigh out base damage/crit profiles based on feat cost and racial factors. Most the basic weapons seem fine to me, many of the martial are just comical and all exotic stink but kopesh.

As it is now kopesh is almost always the answer.

Imo, dwarves sould always be better with axes unless build specifically otherwise, elves sould always be better with scimmies unless build specifically otherwise. Halflings sould get a racial bonus to shortswords and daggers.

Also there sould be a massive increase to all exotic weapons other then kopesh.

Great xbow - was someone drinking when they made this? I think you could increase its crit profile to over 9000 and it still wouldnt get used other then for a glorified vorpal. (i jest clearly, but you get the idea.)

[Missing_Minds]

To tell you the truth they need to add greensteel decon and just revamp the whole thing imo.

As it is now kopesh is almost always the answer.

Naw. All they have to do is give more mobs fortification. Or maybe, just revamp the entire fortification in the game. It works out oddly but ok for PnP, but in this sort of a system... probably doesn't work so well.

[Raithe]

I actually like this idea. It would make IC: ranged be more sniper-ish and would diminish the relative power gap of bows like the Silver Bow. And as noted in the preceding post, it would amplify the base power of high crit multiplier weapons like axes, but allow burst effects to process more on the other weapons.

I'd vote "yea."

[karnokvolrath]

Naw. All they have to do is give more mobs fortification. Or maybe, just revamp the entire fortification in the game. It works out oddly but ok for PnP, but in this sort of a system... probably doesn't work so well.

Not entirely bad idea, but people love those big numbers ;)

Even with a fort alter the weapons need an altering badly imo, math was never a factor when they made the weapon profiles. Math completely runs dps and therefore sould be the leading factor in making weapons.

The devs just need to wander around some fansites and look over the spreedsheets in various situations and prolly could half guesstamate and it would be better then now :)

[Daggertooth]

Idea is fine but I wouldn't hold your breath. I personally like adding some additional things to each weapon that is inline w/ the way the weapon works.

10% alacrity bonus for Daggers... there is no reason whatsover that anyone would swing a dagger at the same speed that they swing any other weapon.
Maybe an increasing alacrity bonus for staves as the round(s) progress to represent the built up momentum/velocity.

Adding crit range just for the sake of adding crit range IMO is not the best way to go about giving these weapons a purpose. But it would be nice if SOMETHING was done to give them some reason.

[Certon]

Idea is fine but I wouldn't hold your breath. I personally like adding some additional things to each weapon that is inline w/ the way the weapon works.

10% alacrity bonus for Daggers... there is no reason whatsover that anyone would swing a dagger at the same speed that they swing any other weapon.
Maybe an increasing alacrity bonus for staves as the round(s) progress to represent the built up momentum/velocity.

Adding crit range just for the sake of adding crit range IMO is not the best way to go about giving these weapons a purpose. But it would be nice if SOMETHING was done to give them some reason.

Weapon speed was something I considered as a balance for the current critical ranges as well, but it is a more complex field opening up many larger cans of worms that I would most likely be unable to rectify. It would blow up in my face, probably.