Warforged Bonus Feat

[Xenostrata]

It's amazing how certain titles are more effective at bringing people in. Time for everyone to make their reading comprehension rolls!

My suggestion is that, at level 1, all warforged are granted a single bonus feat that they can use to choose what type of plating they get. The system, as it is now, penalizes warforged playing feat starved classes, resulting in paladins wearing the steampunk equivalent of robes instead of the heavy/medium armor most fleshy paladins will be wearing.

Right now, warforged is the only race that requires the player to spend normal feats to gain access to a racial benefit. All other races are granted their "racial feats" automatically, and the only other race that has to choose what kind of bonus they get (helves) gets a bonus feat at level one for their choice.

Would it be overpowering? No. In my case (and I think in the cases of many other players) the choice would be mostly aesthetic, since the different platings change the grqphics of whatever docent the warforged is wearing. Worry about "cheap AC" is pointless, since warforged is the single hardest race to achieve a worthwhile AC on (believe me, I've tried). Adamantine body's single point of DR is nice, but hardly game breaking, since it only stacks with an enhancement line that any warforged can take, regardless of plating.
In comparison with helves (as the only other race with multiple options when it comes to racial attributes), which do you see as more powerful:

Extra AC on a class that can't be a viable AC tank type build and/or 1 point of DR, OR

+5 stacking bonus to all saves / 3d6 sneak attack damage / Full martial weapon proficiency and a bonus to tactical DCs / use of arcane or divine scrolls and wands, regardless of UMD / etc.

TL;DR version:
Let me look cool on my wf paladin without needing to sacrifice a feat. Please?

[BLAKROC]

if ya give up ur immunities for a bonus feat then shore, otherwise no

[PCSwarrior]

+1, I have felt the same way.

[Morosy]

if ya give up ur immunities for a bonus feat then shore, otherwise no

How about I give up disease immunity.

[Memnir]

/not signed


WF get a lot of other bonuses to compensate for that feat. And, I'd prefer that we try to hew closer to the rulebooks then not - in the Eberron SB, plating costs a feat.

[Morosy]

/not signed


WF get a lot of other bonuses to compensate for that feat. And, I'd prefer that we try to hew closer to the rulebooks then not - in the Eberron SB, plating costs a feat.

I don't think he minds the actual benefits, he just wants to look cool. Should that cost a feat? :D

[Tsuarok]

I don't think it's necessary. Warforged have some amazing abilities (level drain immunity!), and the penalization is almost certainly a conscious attempt at balance.

Although, considering that the body feats mostly just provide penalties to skills due to the uselessness of AC, it isn't all that balancing... maybe you can have it, but you have to trade something useful.

[Phidius]

All my WF would still choose composite, but I wouldn't object to a choice.

[Riksha]

would be nice if we could change the look of our composite to admantine or mithril w/o the feat

[R0cksteady]

Everyone talks about how Warforge ar eno longer good,. with Half Orc being the superior melee class, Pale Masters self healing, and most immunities being dealt with with gear swapping.

But then when people suggest beefing them up a slight amount "No way they've got too much already".

[dterror]

Everyone talks about how Warforge ar eno longer good,. with Half Orc being the superior melee class, Pale Masters self healing, and most immunities being dealt with with gear swapping.

But then when people suggest beefing them up a slight amount "No way they've got too much already".


That's why you see more than 1/8 of the server population running around as warforged, because they are no longer good, right?

There are 8 races, and if all were perfectly balanced with each other then the total population of each would be around 1/8 of the total.

You want a free feat for WF? Lose the mental and life force immunities you have now. Become vulnerable to all will save spells and level loss.

[ZeroTakenaka]

You guys are getting it all wrong. All Xenostrata is asking is for a feat that lets you choose between Mithral, Adamantine, and Composite armor plating. THAT'S IT.

[Veriden]

I don't think he minds the actual benefits, he just wants to look cool. Should that cost a feat? :D

Half orcs and half elves get to look ugly for free, why should warforged be excluded there? If you want to play a warforged, you gotta look ugly. Simple as that.

[licho]

Why not.
As long as its "pick one, leave rest".

The only problem i see is WF FvS will be even cooler, but considering where its now, no much difference.
(also its related with state of other races)

[Ugumagre]

/not signed

Take the feat at low levels, swap it in higher levels for a another one.
I thought that was done by everybody.

[Requiro]

You guys are getting it all wrong. All Xenostrata is asking is for a feat that lets you choose between Mithral, Adamantine, and Composite armor plating. THAT'S IT.

This ^^ guys.

/signed

[Jay203]

/definitely signed

i want my wf monk to have the look of addy plating :D:D:D
*of course he'd still be in composite, but i want the addy plating LOOK!

[k1ngp1n]

/definitely signed

i want my wf monk to have the look of addy plating :D:D:D
*of course he'd still be in composite, but i want the addy plating LOOK!

This is a cosmetic issue, not an issue with feats.

[Memnir]

You guys are getting it all wrong. All Xenostrata is asking is for a feat that lets you choose between Mithral, Adamantine, and Composite armor plating. THAT'S IT.I get it, I just disagree.
As I said, in the source books - any plating beyond Composite costs a feat. And, I prefer to stick closer to the books then stray away. It's a choice to be a Warforged, and part of that choice is to give up a feat for heavier plating in return for the abundant benefits WF receive. It's part of the balance for the race.

/still not signed

/definitely signed

i want my wf monk to have the look of addy plating :D:D:D
*of course he'd still be in composite, but i want the addy plating LOOK!Get the Beholder docent from the 1st Madness chain. :) Looks like Ada plating, even with no body feat.

[Xenostrata]

You guys are getting it all wrong. All Xenostrata is asking is for a feat that lets you choose between Mithral, Adamantine, and Composite armor plating. THAT'S IT.

It's amazing how many people read the titel, but not the post itself. That's why I added the introductory paragraph. This one wasn't as bad as the "make all raid loot bta, btc on equip (if you get it from a 20th completion reward)" thread, but still.

In what way is giving AC to a race that can't make viable AC builds, or a single point of DR that doesn't stack, overpowered? (wow, that sentence made me flinch). Most people would take it because it makes their WF look cool, not for any numerical ingame benefit. Warforged should not have to choose between spending 1/7 of their feats on a purely aesthetic choice or running around with the same plating as everyone else.

At the very least, it would promote build and character diversity, so that not all DT/ERDS wearing warforged looks the same.

Edit: Memnir, I agree with you most of the time (honestly, who doesn't?) but I think I'll have to express that here by agreeing to disagree. I too feel that DDO should cleave closer to its PnP origins; however, after trying to make my first toons copies of my old-ish 3.5 characters (elf druid, halfling rogue that uses shortbow/daggers) it quickly became clear that it would be occasionally impossible to completely reflect PnP. I now hold the opinion that mirroring PnP is good, so long as it doesn't come at the cost of other mechanics. I feel it is genuinely unfair that one race is forced to use a feat to choose what its armor looks like, while the rest can simply switch armors.
If you have a reason besides "this is what it is like in PnP" (which, while noble, is obviously ignored by Turbine), please explain it. The rule should generally be consider how it affects the game balance-wise before how it affects the game thematically.

[Jay203]

This is a cosmetic issue, not an issue with feats.

of course it is :)
i need to take the freaking feat AND take the heavy hit of heavy armor just to look awesome :(


wonder if they could implement the choosing plating looks in the character creation screen....

[Corwinsky]

If there was a problem with WF not so many people would be playing them so no they shouldn't get any additional free feat at level 1 or whatever.
The root cause of your problem is not that WF have to spend a feat on their armor type but that some class are feat starved (Paladin according to your example) so that's where some creative solution should be found.

And in DnD lore should WF anyway be Paladins or Clerics? It seems that if it was the case that it would clearly have determined that they have a soul and they wouldn't have been a need for a great convention to discuss their case.

[Memnir]

wonder if they could implement the choosing plating looks in the character creation screen....
I think this would be a more useful char-gen option then Base Color.

Body Appearance:
1-Composite look. 2- Mithril look. 3- Adamantine look.



I'd be cool with this more then granting a bonus feat.

[Ssmooth]

/Not signed.

While I love the look of the Adam plating, your reasons are flawed.

I created an intim wf tank back-in-the-day(lvl cap 16) that could hit 75 ac(34str) pretty easily without monk levels--pure 16 fighter. That same build at level cap with the pre's available, I'm sure I could get that up to the 85-90 range and still maintain a 38-40str unbuffed.

While it would be nice, WF get so many immunities that this would not be a good change for the game imo. I also agree with Memnir. Staying true to the book is better policy and I believe better for the game.

[Dagolar]

Okay, lets break this down:

Warforged are currently spending a feat to acquire basic (mithril, adamantine) armor. In other words, they're using a feat to gain an item that others can get easier. This isn't a direct counterpoint to the warforged benefits, since they aren't required to take armor feats; Hence, it's not a penalty, it's an expense for.. an item. From this point, having the feat choice be allowed seems certain.

HOWEVER. Docents often get Reinforced Plating- this is an armor bonus that fleshies don't get, typically ranging from +1 to +2, but still very helpful. So, if you're playing an armor wf anyway, you're getting extra benefits.. right?

Well, now we counterpoint again: There are far more good armors out there than docents (Unless you've found a Full Docent of the Defender I'm not aware of). That's not to say armors are superior to docents, or that many armors don't have docent equivalents, but that it's still harder to get good armors for wf than for fleshies- in other words, making the reinforced plating seem to be a rarity benefit.

However.. Warforged are primarily built as tanks anyway. They do get fantastic bonuses, all really beneficial to tanking.

Though, isn't the healing reduction already a penalty for that reason? And can't you get most of those resistances and immunities from easy to get items or even as class features?

So:
Warforged Pros:
- Potentially better armor
- Built for tanking

Warforged Negs:
- Needs a feat
- Harder to get said better armor
- Severe healing penalty, even with enhancements
- Resistances/Immunities/Innate Abilities can be easily imitated
- Almost all other abilities are shared with Half-Orcs

Other:
- Feat loss fits with PnP (though isn't vital, or even remotely significant, to lore and is a smaller change than many DDO has made)

In summation.. there is a strong argument to be made for either allowing the feat choice to be free, or to differentiate Warforged from Half-Orcs more.

[Dagolar]

Okay, lets break this down:

Warforged are currently spending a feat to acquire basic (mithril, adamantine) armor. In other words, they're using a feat to gain an item that others can get easier. This isn't a direct counterpoint to the warforged benefits, since they aren't required to take armor feats; Hence, it's not a penalty, it's an expense for.. an item. From this point, having the feat choice be allowed seems certain.

HOWEVER. Docents often get Reinforced Plating- this is an armor bonus that fleshies don't get, typically ranging from +1 to +2, but still very helpful. So, if you're playing an armor wf anyway, you're getting extra benefits.. right?

Well, now we counterpoint again: There are far more good armors out there than docents (Unless you've found a Full Docent of the Defender I'm not aware of). That's not to say armors are superior to docents, or that many armors don't have docent equivalents, but that it's still harder to get good armors for wf than for fleshies- in other words, making the reinforced plating seem to be a rarity benefit.

However.. Warforged are primarily built as tanks anyway. They do get fantastic bonuses, all really beneficial to tanking.

Though, isn't the healing reduction already a penalty for that reason? And can't you get most of those resistances and immunities from easy to get items or even as class features?

So:
Warforged Pros:
- Potentially better armor
- Built for tanking

Warforged Negs:
- Needs a feat
- Harder to get said better armor
- Severe healing reduction, even with enhancements
- Resistances/Immunities/Innate Abilities can be easily imitated
- Almost all other abilities are shared with Half-Orcs

Other:
- Feat loss fits with PnP (though isn't vital, or even remotely significant, to lore and is a smaller change than many DDO has made)

In summation.. there is a strong, but not overwhelming, argument to be made for either allowing the feat choice to be free, or to differentiate Warforged from Half-Orcs more.

[Aelonwy]

Edit: Memnir, I agree with you most of the time (honestly, who doesn't?) but I think I'll have to express that here by agreeing to disagree. If you have a reason besides "this is what it is like in PnP" (which, while noble, is obviously ignored by Turbine), please explain it. The rule should generally be consider how it affects the game balance-wise before how it affects the game thematically.

I agree with this and I almost always agree with Memnir too.

[Yan_PL]

wonder if they could implement the choosing plating looks in the character creation screen....
/signed

[Lithic]

You guys are getting it all wrong. All Xenostrata is asking is for a feat that lets you choose between Mithral, Adamantine, and Composite armor plating. THAT'S IT.

All he is asking for is free 3 DR/adamantine for all non-evasion melees and FvS.

/not signed. WF get plenty as it is.

Now a DDO store option that turns your cosmetic appearance from comp. to adamantine or mithral (with no other effect) I could get behind.

[Rian]

I play warforged myself, however I don't see the point of it's necessity.

Barbarians aren't usually built for DR, it's hps and dps in most cases.
Fighters have the feats so they can get it.
Wizards have the feats so they can get it. I don't know why though with arcane spell failure
Rogues don't need it.
Rangers don't need it.
Monks don't need it. They have earthstance if they want DR
Paladins are missing out I'll admit.
Favored Souls too, but there are work arounds.
Sorcerers don't need it, don't have the feats for it.

Do they body feats affect your combat abilities such as evasion?
I'm not sure.

I would love a cosmetic choice at character creation.
I would also love some docents that won't burn the back of my eyeballs when I look at them.

[Xenostrata]

I would be fine with being able to choose appearance regardless of plating at character creation, I've already stated I'm only in this for the awesome looks. I just think (I may be wrong) that it would be easier to code/implement as a free feat at character creation, since they've already done it with helves. If it works he other way, then great! /signed.


All he is asking for is free 3 DR/adamantine for all non-evasion melees and FvS.

/not signed. WF get plenty as it is.

Now a DDO store option that turns your cosmetic appearance from comp. to adamantine or mithral (with no other effect) I could get behind.

First off, no. Last I checked, addy plating gives 1 point of DR (I have a toon with the feat, yes). The wiki says it gives 2 DR. Out of the three of us, 2 of these sources are wrong, and I'm fairly sure you are one of them.

Secondly, I strongly doubt enough people would buy it in the store to justify this when it is available as a feat. The only difference I see is caster/evasion types looking for spikes, which could be nice. I do not think ot justifies selling this as a cosmetic when it really should be offered free at character creation.

[PurdueDave]

What I'd really like is the ability to choose what kind of plating it LOOKS like I'm wearing.

[Xenostrata]

/Not signed.

While I love the look of the Adam plating, your reasons are flawed.

I created an intim wf tank back-in-the-day(lvl cap 16) that could hit 75 ac(34str) pretty easily without monk levels--pure 16 fighter. That same build at level cap with the pre's available, I'm sure I could get that up to the 85-90 range and still maintain a 38-40str unbuffed.

While it would be nice, WF get so many immunities that this would not be a good change for the game imo. I also agree with Memnir. Staying true to the book is better policy and I believe better for the game.

While it may have been viable then, it probably isn't as much now. IIRC, elite horoth (the most important place to have max AC) has +94 to attack, so you would not quite be in the 19 graze range. Also, the 38-40 strength tells me very little about dps, and as a fighter this number is not only very low but unsupported by paladin threat boosts that make s/b threat tanking viable with lower dps.

Edit: If I'm wrong about your build, feel free to post it/PM sirgog about it - he mentioned that he didn't think it could be done in one of his epic item review threads, and invited anyone with 88+ AC and over 400 threat per second to send him thr build.

[Dispel]

I would give up 25% fortification for an extra Toughness. (only got 2 now, sadly)

[Talias006]

And in DnD lore should WF anyway be Paladins or Clerics? It seems that if it was the case that it would clearly have determined that they have a soul and they wouldn't have been a need for a great convention to discuss their case.

The Lord Of Blades is a quasi-deity for Warforged, just sayin'... So that's one reason why WF can be divinely blessed either as a Paladin, Cleric, or Favored Soul. ;)


I think this would be a more useful char-gen option then Base Color.

Body Appearance:
1-Composite look. 2- Mithril look. 3- Adamantine look.



I'd be cool with this more then granting a bonus feat.

^^ This. Wish I could +1 you Mem, but I keep having to distribute it around to a small pool of well thought out posters. :D :o

[Shade]

Yea really shocked they still havaen't give any possible way to look cool as a WF yet on a paladin/barb/anything non-ftr.

I mean if not your suggestions, there a dozen other decent ways to do it.

Hell they could really of made a lot more cash off of is they used armor kits to do it.

Should be 3 new armor kits - look sonly, admaantine/mithral/composite.. So charge us some turbine points and let us look how we like, without gimping our characters.

Or if the free feat idea os considered OP...
Give us a free COSMETIC FEAT. So it doesn't give the AC of adamantine body, but just the looks.

[Uska]

No I think this is a bad idea we have our immunites which are huge we didnt get those at first if you remember. What they should do is add the feat that will allow us to wear robes if we wish but I think that feat does cost you some of your immunites or maybe its just our +2 ac to lazy to look it up

[Uska]

You guys are getting it all wrong. All Xenostrata is asking is for a feat that lets you choose between Mithral, Adamantine, and Composite armor plating. THAT'S IT.

You want those looks take those body types I hate all this comestic stuff people want the look of something without paying the real price of it things like armor skins or /showhelmet off needs to be like pnp you find it and what looks like is what it looks like. Not against having more variety in docents and my stance against the comestic stuff isnt trully hard core but is against a free feat maybe more docent skins would do what you guys want.

[eulogy098]

I suggested the same thing some time back --

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=260884


most people failed to understand that in reality warforged plating are cosmetic only. But people still didn't support it. A great deal of players still have the delusion that the armor would be of some benefit beyond level 6.

Yes. WF should have a bonus feat at level 1 giving them the option to select which plating they want. If not open to all, at least open to relevant classes per armor type (paladin all, ranger mithril or composite, barb mithril or combosite, monk only composite, wizard only composite and so on) with the other options being selectable with a normal feat.

Never happen though. its a pipe dream.

[azrael4h]

That's why you see more than 1/8 of the server population running around as warforged, because they are no longer good, right?

There are 8 races, and if all were perfectly balanced with each other then the total population of each would be around 1/8 of the total.

Is that why we see half the servers clogged with Drow? Because they're so good?

[Phidius]

Is that why we see half the servers clogged with Drow? Because they're so good?

It's because they're just that cool...