If I'd choose MMOs through videos...

[WarDestroyer]

I'd go for WoW

Awesomeness. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCnefPX2UY)

Devs you should do things like that.

[Gkar]

Every official Turbine promotional video has sucked...REALLY sucked in most cases.

There have been some great player vids though.

edit: Just noticed that link was a player vid as well, not something Blizard put together

[Lissyl]

I'd go for WoW

Awesomeness. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCnefPX2UY)

Devs you should do things like that.

I remember every single moment of every section of that video, where it's from, and what it was like when I first saw it. I remember every quest that tied into them, and kept you playing just to see where the story would lead you, every raid that we would spend months perfecting until we could do them in our sleep, all to see the next video, the next challenge, and the machinimas between expansions that would come with almost every content package/raid addition. From Black Temple, added shortly after I started, all the way past Icecrown and into Cataclysm.

You want to know why a lot of people stayed with WoW? Right there is your answer. Even now, as disappointed as WoW turned out for me, that video brought melancholy nostalgia and the glimmer of tears. THAT'S why people play it. It's not the combat, it's not the characters, the art, none of that. It's the story. It makes you feel like you're part of it...or...did, rather, once upon a time. :(

Yes Devs...please...that is one thing I would DEARLY love to see in DDO. Make me ~feel~ a part of it, beyond just what we do in quests.

[Lissyl]

edit: Just noticed that link was a player vid as well, not something Blizard put together

Actually it's a remix of the Original, Burning Crusade, and Wrath of the Lich King cinematics. Only the order (and only a LITTLE bit of the order) was player-touched. If you take all the stuff with Arthas in the frozen cold and move it to the end, you watched all three of them in chronological order.

[perylousdemon]

As much as I hate to admit it, that was pretty awesome. Granted, the music the creator chose was a huge help. I'm a sucker for pieces like that. :)

[Postumus]

You want to know why a lot of people stayed with WoW? Right there is your answer. Even now, as disappointed as WoW turned out for me, that video brought melancholy nostalgia and the glimmer of tears. THAT'S why people play it. It's not the combat, it's not the characters, the art, none of that. It's the story. It makes you feel like you're part of it...or...did, rather, once upon a time. :(

Yes Devs...please...that is one thing I would DEARLY love to see in DDO. Make me ~feel~ a part of it, beyond just what we do in quests.

Yeah DDO story telling outside of the quests needs some work.


Maybe using more voice actors for some of the main NPCs like Delera, Yorrick, Cyodnie, etc etc.
Would help players 'connect' more to the NPCs.

I like the voice work DDO has done with the Lordsmarch chain and the Chronoscope.

[sirgog]

Yeah DDO story telling outside of the quests needs some work.


Maybe using more voice actors for some of the main NPCs like Delera, Yorrick, Cyodnie, etc etc.
Would help players 'connect' more to the NPCs.

I like the voice work DDO has done with the Lordsmarch chain and the Chronoscope.

I liked the Colonoscope voiceovers, until I started scroll farming it.

Hearing "Tremas' orders are to kill the squidface, and anyone else left here" over and over...

Kaboom's voiceovers in Undermine are some of my favorite, however.

Blizzard just has a higher budget for these sorts of videos.

[Kromize]

Or how bout an in-game event like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z81T6FycBz4

watch this one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW0fvZpZeO4

And be sure to check out the false advertisement that is the intro movie.

[MrCow]

If I'd choose MMOs through videos...

... then I'd find the video pretty meaningless to my decision. It had no showing of gameplay. The cinematics are quite nice, but do little justification for why I might want to play the game.

[Veriden]

I'd like to see some cinematics in ddo that are optional to view. With this game's graphics they'd be enjoyable I believe.

[Letrii]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKDkvy9sKuY

[BitkaCK2]

I remember every single moment of every section of that video, where it's from, and what it was like when I first saw it. I remember every quest that tied into them, and kept you playing just to see where the story would lead you, every raid that we would spend months perfecting until we could do them in our sleep, all to see the next video, the next challenge, and the machinimas between expansions that would come with almost every content package/raid addition. From Black Temple, added shortly after I started, all the way past Icecrown and into Cataclysm.

You want to know why a lot of people stayed with WoW? Right there is your answer. Even now, as disappointed as WoW turned out for me, that video brought melancholy nostalgia and the glimmer of tears. THAT'S why people play it. It's not the combat, it's not the characters, the art, none of that. It's the story. It makes you feel like you're part of it...or...did, rather, once upon a time. :(

Yes Devs...please...that is one thing I would DEARLY love to see in DDO. Make me ~feel~ a part of it, beyond just what we do in quests.

QFT.

Hate me because I liked WoW if you will. As Lissyl said, I remember every moment of every bit of mythos the game fed me. I started playing 6 months after release and played until 6 months before Cataclysm. You can scoff at the combat all you want but back in 'old days' combat, and the game, was fun and the story pushed you from one quest to the next. Kill 20 of these? Fetch that? Why? Let me tell you... <quest dialog here>. They used to do that.... then it got old... like things do.

NOW, I do prefer DDOs combat and game mechanics but if you could smush the two together into a massive best mix of both worlds... well I can think of worse fates.

bitkaCK2

PS: Hardware Store (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwh1MWg1LLA) is a much more epic WoW video.

[sirgog]

PS: Hardware Store (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwh1MWg1LLA) is a much more epic WoW video.

Bahahaha, that's gold!

The ultimate MMO, IMO, would have WoW's encounter design, LOTRO's story depth, and DDO's combat mechanics.

[DoctorWhofan]

If every Square Enix game was as good as it's movies, They would dominate the market. And we would have a revamped FFVII.

[Galeria]

OK, I clicked the link out of minimal curiosity... but wow. Yes, WOW but wow... that was awesome.

I did like the Friends Don't Let Friends Play Solo promos for DDO, but there doesn't seem to be anything else.

[Hollowgolem]

I think it's important to note that DDO's setting doesn't lend itself to the sort of high fantasy storytelling you'd find in Azeroth. If we wanted a setting that did that, we'd be playing a DDO set in Faerun or Krynn. Instead, we're in Eberron., where the characters aren't supposed to be that much larger than life. Swashbuckling and treasure-hunting are the scope of Eberron, especially on Xen'drik, and we should be looking more for an Indiana-Jones style narrative, rather than a Lord of the Rings one.

Indeed, the intro cinema to DDO I think does a good job of this, but it's all there is. There's not much in the way of atmosphere in DDO, at least in the older quests, though I have to say, quests like the ones in Harbinger have stepped it up a few notches with regard to setting a stage for drama ("Taken" in that arc is especially good at this).

[NinjaCereal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwyUH3f5rjo

Fan made video, but I liked it. It shows some of the actual gameplay too.

[Lyzern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI4fADYcRfM&feature=fvst

Too bad these videos we're posting aren't enough to cover the game's crappy gameplay, which DDO dominates.

[Lissyl]

I think it's important to note that DDO's setting doesn't lend itself to the sort of high fantasy storytelling you'd find in Azeroth. If we wanted a setting that did that, we'd be playing a DDO set in Faerun or Krynn. Instead, we're in Eberron., where the characters aren't supposed to be that much larger than life. Swashbuckling and treasure-hunting are the scope of Eberron, especially on Xen'drik, and we should be looking more for an Indiana-Jones style narrative, rather than a Lord of the Rings one.

Indeed, the intro cinema to DDO I think does a good job of this, but it's all there is. There's not much in the way of atmosphere in DDO, at least in the older quests, though I have to say, quests like the ones in Harbinger have stepped it up a few notches with regard to setting a stage for drama ("Taken" in that arc is especially good at this).

I got to thinking about this late last night and into this morning...about how an overarching storyline isn't a very good match with DDO. And I agree with that much.

But one thing I thought I'd mention is the option of machinima. A good example where voice acting combined with machinima makes for a very memorable video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2I4t_OQ06A

Now, for the most part, the Zul'aman series was 'independent' of the over-arching story, mainly just tie-ins to the history of the trolls and even then, only tenuously. So it was pretty much a standalone module -- not unlike our own content updates. Imagine a small machinima -- much cheaper and easier to make than a full cinematic, plus the quality voice talent that DDO has -- for each content update. Doesn't have to be long, just enough to 'whet the appetite'. Imagine the Droaam invasion one, for example -- the prelude to Eyes of Stone. Or the Madness pack. What would they look like?

Just some thoughts, hopefully a quiet, lurking dev is reading this and thinking 'Hey...that's a darn good idea!' :p

[Truga]

... then I'd find the video pretty meaningless to my decision. It had no showing of gameplay. The cinematics are quite nice, but do little justification for why I might want to play the game.

Mr. Cow, right as usually. WoW wasn't a terribly fun game for me to play. Then again, DDO is the first fantasy MMO I'm actually enjoying since playing RO. In WoW, the mages are weak. They're just archers that use fireball instead of bow. In proper games, they're so much more than that... They can be melee, archers, tanks, aoes, you name it. In wow, you're just another long-range dps.

The game I started playing after seeing the vids was eve online. However, since then CCP has managed to make their game un-fun. Right now their trailers are better than the game (much like wow :P). Plus, I haven't had time to play much recently, and DDO fits me better atm with the short quests, and no midnight OPs. :D


Bahahaha, that's gold!

The ultimate MMO, IMO, would have WoW's encounter design, LOTRO's story depth, and DDO's combat mechanics.

Edit: What I miss in MMOs these days are builds. This is the major reason I'm playing DDO right now. All these new ones railroad your build to the developer pre-set attributes, which raise with levels only in the way they were intended. This means, tanky (AC or otherwise) wizard? Nu-uh, not happening. Melee wizard? No. Melee cleric? Clerics can do something other than heal even? Usually not. And so on like that. I know it makes it easier to balance the game but come on, where's the fun in that.

The second problem I have with "modern" mmo design is balancing with cooldowns. Now I don't have a problem with cooldowns, but any skill that has a cooldown longer than say, 10 seconds (and even that's pushing it), is just un-fun. If I want to spam something that costs me actual resources (mana, stamina, rage, adrenaline, you name it), I should be able to spam it if I want to!

[Missing_Minds]

... then I'd find the video pretty meaningless to my decision. It had no showing of gameplay. The cinematics are quite nice, but do little justification for why I might want to play the game.

Exactly.

[bartosy]

bliz will and always will be a pioneer of slick fmvs and good storytelling
no matter how much you hate them.

did they steal from other games ?

sure did..

but stealing something and making it better in many ways..
is not a bad thing it's called progress ;P.

i'm playing online role playing games since ultima online in 2001
and i can honestly say that raiding in wow with 39 others reaching
a goal getting dkp for that treasured weapon or gear peace and downing
ragnaros for the first time after months of being in the molten snore..

well it was awesome..

pvp was a heck of a lot more fun then ddo pvp ever was..

but yea after vanilla wow i moved on..

and now it's not the same anymore.. no worries tho i got other stuf
to keep me occupied.. but yea i can understand how people can get
addicted to games like wow..

and a lot of not the majority of the videos are not from world of warcraft but from warcraft 3 wich is not a mmo.

[Wylf]

Oooh boy, first post on these forums and its one about wow. Figures. Played the game for around 5 years, mostly as a roleplayer (something I kinda miss here in DDO. It's funny that a game based on the worlds largest roleplaying system has so little actual roleplay in it ;X). The major factor why I liked it so much was basically the overall atmosphere, despite its rather comical attire the game manages to suck the player in, to make him care for the world. A good example for that is the Zul'Aman trailer that got posted earlier.
Another factor was the fact that the community did some really great things machinimawise, I don't think that there's any other game that manages to top wow on that. At least I don't know any other game that spawned true epics like "Tales of the past".
http://www.gamona.de/gamonatv/world-of-warcraft,tales-of-the-past-3:video,652334.html - sorry for the german link, the movie itself is in english.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

Yeah DDO story telling outside of the quests needs some work.


Maybe using more voice actors for some of the main NPCs like Delera, Yorrick, Cyodnie, etc etc.
Would help players 'connect' more to the NPCs.

I like the voice work DDO has done with the Lordsmarch chain and the Chronoscope.

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

[protokon]

... then I'd find the video pretty meaningless to my decision. It had no showing of gameplay. The cinematics are quite nice, but do little justification for why I might want to play the game.

especially considering how pathetically cartoonish the graphics really are over in WOW. My brother convinced me to create an account to play with him last year, I barely made it past the character creation screen. jesus, staring at my own avatar for 5 minutes was painful before I decided not to log back in ever again.

At least everquest2 / Rift / other MMO's I've played had some pretty nifty/flashy gameplay. DDO's character creation is pretty minimal in terms of customization, but it still beats WOW by a mile.

[protokon]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Absolutely. I think promotional videos to show off new adventure packs (and I mean large ones, like when devils of shavarath were released, not just a small pack that exists inside an existing area) can do wonders for attracting new players, and previous players back to the game.

I remember when I first started playing, some of the promotional videos of the necropolis quest series got me really excited to keep playing and leveling up.

[Trillea]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Yes. But make them for updates that are large enough to warrant it - and make the updates large enough to warrant it.

[LordArkan]

So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Tough call. I think it'd be nice to have trailers for each of the adventure packs, as well as trailers for the new ones that we saw before they went live (or possibly even to llamaland). But at the same time, DDO's youtube presence is very weak...

[karnokvolrath]

So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Uhm..duh.

You know 70% of my friends have never heard of this game? Even the nerdy ones. They say "really a dnd has an mmo? awesome. ..........whats ebberron?"

A logger from the dakotas knows what WoW is.

[Lissyl]

I definitely think so. Content updates, particularly those that are going to be store packs and not f2p, would benefit greatly from an intro video. Like the Gods of Zul'aman I linked at the top of page 2, a simple machinima -- perhaps part contrived, part actual gameplay in alt-Z mode -- with our exceptional voice talent could be quite the pitch to f2p/premium players (imagine a machinima for the Eyes of Stone/Assault on Stormreach pack voiced by the medusa, talking to an unknown entity about Droaam 'plans' for Stormreach!). Perhaps an ideal 'release' time would be during the downtime that preludes a content update, linked prominently on the forums and with a link on the launcher (which could also have the side-benefit of bringing more people to the forums). Possibly even an announcement upon first logging in, for those who don't actually read the news on the launcher.

Also, these serve as ready-to-go announcements of new content to major online publications like mmorpg.com, tentonhammer and so on, which may garner additional attention from other communities looking for a new game to try.

[LordArkan]

DDO's character creation is pretty minimal in terms of customization, but it still beats WOW by a mile.

DDO's lack of cosmetic customization is made up for by it's fairly open mechanical customization.
If only we had a game where you could change your appearance as much as in games like City of Heroes, and build your character as much as you can in DDO, with a combat engine as great as Vindictus, and an interesting, in-depth story like Guild Wars, using a crafting system that actually makes some sense like... well, haven't seen one of those I REALLY liked yet. I liked an idea I had heard where your crafting level determines the resources used when making items, rather than what you can make... I hate crafting systems where a character that doesn't grind crafting endlessly will never make an item they would actually use.

[sephiroth1084]

So a question...should DDO still be making videos?
If they don't suck, yes.

[Glenalth]

So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

No, but DDO should be having video contests with substantial prizes. Let the legions do the work while actually rewarding them for it.

[wigthemaster]

none of that is Wow (technically), all of those scenes are from Warcraft 1-3 + frozen thrones specifically, so therefore you choose to play a non-mmo and instead chose to play an Rts :P


~wig

[Dark_Helmet]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.

As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

I hate most MMOs and games that do that. If I wanted a movie...I would watch a movie! I play this for being D&D (well used to be), which means a DM telling the story and making the voices. Having cut shots that people will just look at once (maybe twice) and then skip will be like wasting development on PvP... or a wall. :cool:



That said, celebrity voices would be a nice change of pace and, if you can get some fans (like Vin Diesel, Robin Williams and Mike Myers to name a few) to voice them, all the better. That is why I like Delera and Threnal, while people who don't know hate it. It brings you back to them in action at a convention how cool it was.

[BossOfEarth]

So a question...should DDO still be making videos? Yes but less is more. My favorites are fan-made videos that with a deep and narrow focus. The how-to stealth videos by Ghost(something) and the I'm on a flying boat by (something)beard were fun to watch and got me more interested in the game.

I think you guys should make videos like:
DDO has monks! And then go into all the many ways that monks are cool. Perhaps with two or three monks arguing over who has the most powerful kung-fu.

DDO has deadly traps! And showcase some really gruesome traps.

DDO has hillarious kobolds! And then have some comedy.

The Pit is dangerous! And then have a spoof safety training video about the many ways to Fail spectacularly while cleaning the sewers.

I'd like to watch those videos myself, but it would also be easy to e-mail a link to a friend on the fence about playing DDO monks, or who doesn't see why traps are cool.

Theory: My thought is that game demos should showcase poor player skills so that the audience will want to step in and do better. The Leeeroy Jenkins youtube vid did that for WOW, and all the arcade games insert coin(s) screens from the 80s and 90s did it too.

Concordantly, Fail is trending.

[ImFour20]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

yes. you would be surprised at the attention you could get from gametrailers alone. i always thought it was sad to search on gametrailers and the newest video be on GiantHold

[Kakashi67]

DDO's lack of cosmetic customization is made up for by it's fairly open mechanical customization.
If only we had a game where you could change your appearance as much as in games like City of Heroes, and build your character as much as you can in DDO, with a combat engine as great as Vindictus, and an interesting, in-depth story like Guild Wars, using a crafting system that actually makes some sense like... well, haven't seen one of those I REALLY liked yet. I liked an idea I had heard where your crafting level determines the resources used when making items, rather than what you can make... I hate crafting systems where a character that doesn't grind crafting endlessly will never make an item they would actually use.

UO's crafting was always my favorite. I miss housing too.

[sirgog]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Yes, gameplay videos. If, and only if, they can be done well and focus on something that is unique in DDO.

I think a video showing a poorly executed Razor Arm fight (from Epic Chronoscope) would be perfect. The encounter truly captures the three-dimensional nature of DDO combat, something MMO veterans will look at and say 'wow, that's different'. Especially WoW veterans, for whom jumping in combat is almost solely used to interrupt their own spellcasting. By 'poorly executed', I mean a fight that goes on quite a while, has multiple people fall, and trash bordering on out of control.

A speedy run of Genesis Point would also look impressive and show off a lot of unique things about DDO.

And finally, a full-stealth run of Framework or epic Claw of Vulkoor.

[Khurse]

And the Kobolds!

So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Yes, but as suggested a game play fight (Chrono would be cool)

Keep the people who design(ed) the looks of Armour/Half Orcs/Half Elves etc far away from it though.

[efreet5]

As someone who doesn't play WoW, I found that incredibly boring. Am I the only one? When I hear Lux-Aeterna played I expect everything to be EPIC towards the end when it gets going and the transition from a HUUUUGGGEEE Draco-lich standing on a mountain to some random orc fighting an elf was so anti-climactic I couldn't watch any more... If this is the other choice, then I vote for more broccoli!! ;)

[Letrii]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

I don't think so, free trials or ftp in this case to check out the gameplay.

[Seikojin]

I think more videos would be good. Like some others have mentioned, pack based videos. Maybe line them up to show the actual storyline in the game.

[bartosy]

none of that is Wow (technically), all of those scenes are from Warcraft 1-3 + frozen thrones specifically, so therefore you choose to play a non-mmo and instead chose to play an Rts :P


~wig

or watch a video :D

[dunklezhan]

I think it's important to note that DDO's setting doesn't lend itself to the sort of high fantasy storytelling you'd find in Azeroth. If we wanted a setting that did that, we'd be playing a DDO set in Faerun or Krynn. Instead, we're in Eberron., where the characters aren't supposed to be that much larger than life. Swashbuckling and treasure-hunting are the scope of Eberron, especially on Xen'drik, and we should be looking more for an Indiana-Jones style narrative, rather than a Lord of the Rings one.


I think this is a really interesting point. And you *could* do some really interesting indiana jones/tomb raider style machinima from DDO. The highly limited range of emotes makes it tricky to do anything really meaningful in that regard, but there's plenty of places where traps leap out at you, there are iconic monsters behind doors, there's Warforged in pimp hats... no wait, that last one isn't quite the atmosphere I'm looking for.

Point is yeah, tone sets expectations and DDO is not epic story telling.

Having said that, I *would* like to see lots more in game accessibility to Lore that is not tied directly to quests (i.e. you can only find it out by talking to quest givers which needs you to be in the right level range etc). WoW used to have actual books lying around in various places - in the cities, randomly throughout dungeons or abandoned structures in wilderness areas, etc. These3 books were usually multi page affairs with lots of background detail in them that you could read or not as you wished.

DDO is finally starting to show signs of this (as with the taken series). Although they're a bit plain jane text in a window style for my liking, at least its uniquely DDO. However they're stuck within a single quest when they could have been scattered throughout the harbour where anyone could read them and get a taste of the foreshadowing of things to come.

[EatSmart]

As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.

I think its a mistake to try and use literal depictions of gameplay in developer authored videos because anyone with Fraps can knock a "lets play" together. All you'd really be doing as a studio is putting a Turbine stamp on letsplayddo4523542.mov.

In contrast, take a look at this clip from a rival MMO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSxSyv4LC1c

It has a really good representation cinematically of one of the product's core meta-games (0.0 fleet action pvp) while still being a cinematic. The video is there to promote an upcoming feature addition, but it has standalone artistic merit that makes it rewatchable. When the latest expansion is history, that video will still be there adding to a library of "this is what playing our product is all about" entertainment.


So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Yes. Those of us who like to talk to our friends about the game would really appreciate being able to linky awesomesauce videos. But please pretty please not just genericcinematicintrovideo3425.mov. If you were to ask me for my wishlist, i'd ask for:
a) A cinematic that alludes to serial TRing
b) A cinematic that depicts flowersniffing dungeoncrawling
c) A cinematic that alludes to fine tuning a custom character towards an "end build" at 20 that goes raiding/epicing.
d) (Any other core meta-games i've missed)

Having said that, videos are a double edged sword. It's easy to damage your product by using trailing edge or dated cinematics to keep costs down, creating the impression of the game lacking the production values and attention to detail of a true AAA game.

Either do it right, or get your fans to do it.

[sirgog]

I think its a mistake to try and use literal depictions of gameplay in developer authored videos because anyone with Fraps can knock a "lets play" together. All you'd really be doing as a studio is putting a Turbine stamp on letsplayddo4523542.mov.

In contrast, take a look at this clip from a rival MMO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSxSyv4LC1c

It has a really good representation cinematically of one of the product's core meta-games (0.0 fleet action pvp) while still being a cinematic. The video is there to promote an upcoming feature addition, but it has standalone artistic merit that makes it rewatchable. When the latest expansion is history, that video will still be there adding to a library of "this is what playing our product is all about" entertainment.


EVE's videos are downright incredible. Take a look at this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mlVuLs_Nw . Not sure something similar could work for DDO, but I'd love to see an attempt.

[Truga]

UO's crafting was always my favorite. I miss housing too.

UO's crafting was ok, but often frustrating. You just wouldn't get the effect you wanted :P

Also, is there even a mmo out there that has proper housing, other than UO and EVE?

@sirgog: There's a good meme about EVE's trailers in it's playerbase: "I want to play that game!" The videos don't show the often much worse picture of lag, when large battles are happening. Don't get me wrong, the game is awesome, we need more mmos like it, but the trailers really don't show what the game works like, even though they're usually made with the game itself.

In the last year, the threshold for large battle has shifted from 1000 people to 2500+ though, so I know it's impossible to remove all lag, the servers just can't handle that much.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/fleetops.jpg
This picture pretty much sums up the problem eve has at the moment. That and the fact that small/solo warfare is a dying breed.

[BurnerD]

Absolutely.. just avoid using phrases like "kick some axe" when you realease them :)

Seriously though some cool promo vidoes with "epic" music would be a great thing.


And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

[Missing_Minds]

should DDO still be making videos?

If for advertisements, yes. But seriously... GET HELP. The last few ads... have been more lacking than helpful.

If for fun, then deff YES.

heck, making a player contest for ads for DDO could be interesting. 30 second clip, make us your best DDO ad. "Tubrine: Powered by our fans" yes?

[le_goat]

PLEASE make a new video, my 4 year old son cannot stop watching the DDO opening movie. I NEED SOMETHING ELSE!

I've devoted my time to making characters that look like the ones in the vid, just so i can kill them in korthos.

[Zion_Halcyon]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Let's be completely honest.

It is utterly amazing the effect Star Wars: The Old Republic has had on other MMO companies. And honestly, I mean that in a positive way for DDO because its making Turbine up its game. Not that they'd ever admit that.

But Regardless of people's feelings of TOR (I plan to play both TOR and DDO - I don't believe you have to be mutually exclusive to one mmo), the fact that this fully voiced monstrocity is scheduled to drop in people's laps sometime this year or the next, well, I really love that the net result is DDO getting more vocal, ala those wonderful Kobolds, and honestly, even the running boss commentary in the newer quests.

I am really glad that this is going to continue :) Voices for the characters would make things really immersive, especially those of us who can't find pugs who will take their time enough to get really immersed in the lore of Stromreach.

[AcesRHigh]

The biggest thing (aside from customer service) that DDO is lacking is the amount of immersion you get from the game. In WoW you're forced to be part of the story. There are a few cut scenes that make you want to know what is going on. At level 20 now, I don't remember a time where I was actually forced or actually even cared why I was doing what I was doing, I just wanted to level. I never had an experience like Escape from Durnholde, where you go back in time to save the current leader of the horde (Thrall) and learn about his life and how he got to where he is. In wow the world changes around you as you quest, and the world is vast and wide open.

Many times, although I knew it wasn't possible, I expected to see a random person out in the wilderness with me doing their slayer/rare/explorer. In DDO, especially when questing, it can feel much too much like a single player game. In wow you're never really alone unless you're alone in some random dungeon somewhere. Most of the time you'll have people passing by on their mounts or flying above you, darting down to mine some ore or pick some herbs. The lack of mounts or a way to get around faster is kind of a let down too. In a world with so many possibilities, you mean to tell me that the people couldn't master the art of taming and riding a horse or something?

Crafting is another big thing I think DDO missed the mark on. WoW has Tailoring, Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, Alchemy, Inscription, Engineering, Jewelry crafting, Enchanting, Mining, Skinning, and Herbalism for primary crafting skills. Fishing, First Aid, Cooking, and Archaeology as secondary crafting skills. Every one has their own unique abilities or special perks that makes for added variety.

For the wow-haters.. there is a reason why the game has 12 million subscribers... The toons might be a little cartoony, I'll give you that, but if you think the world/environment is anything less than amazing at times, you've probably never gotten past the first few levels. Anyone that can go to a place like Crystal Song forest, Winterspring, Moonglade, and many many other places, especially on a flying mount or flightpath to real get a birdseye view, would definitely argue. There are times where the environment alone is breathtaking even though it's just a game.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/media/

A few videos worth mentioning are obviously the first original Cinematic. It's just good. The second I really enjoyed was the one for the Wrath Gate quest line. (Slight spoiler if you've never done it) If you do the wrath gate quest line you end up feeling truly epic, you're granted nonstop healing and mana. You fight alongside your city leaders in a giant battle to take back the Undercity. (horde side) Third one I really like, although out of date as Lady Sylvanas doesn't look like that anymore, is the Lament of the Highborne. Basically shows the story of how she became the queen of the forsaken. All these add to the lore and again, really make me want to know whats happening around me.

Flame on.

[The_Phenx]

Give me a pack as big as the desert and gimmie promos about it.

Hell give me a new city to go other than stormreach.

1-200 new quests would do wonders to the longevity of the game.

Afterall, what do you have to play that will actually challenge a toon whos been tr'd 12 times.

Oh and gimme epics that are a challenge. I want a war of attrition.

[SockMonkey]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

If it would take away from content creation of any type in any way? Then absolutely not.

[Tarragon12]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

Yes. As long as it just extra money spent by Turbine and it doesn't take time from people doing something useful like creating more dungeons.

[Chilldude]

In DDO, especially when questing, it can feel much too much like a single player game. In wow you're never really alone unless you're alone in some random dungeon somewhere.

For the wow-haters.. there is a reason why the game has 12 million subscribers... The toons might be a little cartoony, I'll give you that, but if you think the world/environment is anything less than amazing at times, you've probably never gotten past the first few levels.

Those two points are very significant in my opinion.

First Point: DDO often feels lonely to me, even more lonely than a single player game. The guild level system discourages like minded groups in favor of random player brute force. The highest experience is earned from solo or small party zerging. Even for players that are rather new, it's often easier and less frustrating to just go solo something a couple levels lower on normal with a hireling than try to find a group, wait for everyone to run around and get their ship buffs, and then listen to all the arguing because everyone in this randomly mixed group thinks their style of play is the accepted style of play and everyone else should conform to it. I hate to solo, I don't build my characters to solo I build them to party.

Second Point: The environment in DDO is drab. Subdued. Desolate. Muted. Depressing. If they just turned the color saturation up a bit it would be a thousand times better. Not to cartoon levels like WoW. I get it that they were going for a gritty realism, but it's depressing. Even though WoW is horrifically cartoony, the bright colors are uplifting and give you an overall feeling of hapiness everywhere you go.

If DDO turned up a the color, just a tad mind you, and added community building tools and a reward system that actually encouraged teamwork then it would be a night and day improvement. I think player retention would sky rocket.

A guild with 3 or 4 hundred random members who never play together can sail through guild levels while a small group of players who actually play together all the time will struggle to get to level 25. I've got one character in a guild that I don't know a single person and I've literally never quested with a single member, he has access to +2 stat buffs, 30 resists, and the like. Another character is in a guild with a small group of friends, after months of playing together we finally got a training dummy. Makes it kind of hard to recruit that like minded player when they'd have to give up 20+ 1 hour buffs that persist through everything but death for a training dummy on a ship that will only take you to the same places the teleporter will.

If loot and experience were significantly better at level on elite (than on normal several levels above), it would force all the good people out of their solitude and back into the general population increasing the quality and character of the average DDO player ten fold. I can't count the number of times I've run into someone who was friendly who told me they usually run everything solo because they got tired of dealing with people in randoms.

It's almost as if they don't want people to play together and form lasting friendships that are the corner stone of other MMO's such as WoW. Half the time the only thing that kept me playing WoW was friends. Yet here in DDO they say, "Here ya go... get a huge group of random players together in a guild and we'll give you a bunch of buffs so you can all run solo." Time and again, post after post, people in the forums are complaining about problems that only exist because of the lack of community building tools. The three main categories of players find themselves throw in together group after group and they clash to such a great extent and frequency that it ruins the experience for everyone. New players that are just learning to play, casual players who just want to have fun, and veterans who done it all a million times and are now only interesting in grinding out numbers as quickly as possible have very little means of finding each other, and more importantly, even fewer means of avoiding each other.

One comment line in LFM might be enough to send the message, "Know everything. Don't suck. Don't die." but it doesn't seem to work from all the posts I've seen in the forums by vet zergers who are fed up with the unwashed masses joining their groups.

I know one comment line isn't enough to say, "Looking for friendly and fun players with a sense of adventure, who enjoy a balanced party challenge and yet don't mind a death here and there. May or may not complete all the optionals based on the general disposition of the party. Don't mind helping new players learn the ropes, but we will be running at level on elite, so if you aren't very comfortable with your ability to play your role please send a tell before joining. If the party is otherwise solid we'll bring you along. Exotic builds are fine as long as you are able to fill your role and please make your role clear in a tell before joining. Please stay with the group at all times unless instructed otherwise. There will be a 5-10 minute break in between quests, please try to save your afk's for that time. Decisions will be made as a team, but the party leader breaks a tie. We will either meet at the quest entrance or on a ship if it's available, please do not enter the quest until everyone is ready to enter as a team. At the beginning of the quest the party leader or a designated guide will lay out the general strategy of the run, if you have any comments or opinions on the strategy make them known at this point. At no time should you be in front of the player who has been assigned point. To bolster a sense of adventure, please do not call out trap or otherwise forewarn the party unless your character has actually spotted danger, a secret, or a mob in the distance. Loot rules are 'Your loot, your rules.' If that barbarian loots the super wand of rainbow death, it was his to take, assume he had a reason for doing so, your day will come. Until the party fills feel free to do whatever you like, but be prepared to make your way to the ship or quest entrance and start the quest immediately once it does fill. Now is a good time to bio and get a drink, not when we get buffed up and enter the quest."

[KristovK]

I'd go for WoW

Awesomeness. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCnefPX2UY)

Devs you should do things like that.

If I used those videos as my basis for what I bought, I'd being suing Blizzard for breach of contract for failure to provide the content their cinematics appear to be offering up as what I'd see and experience in WoW. And as we all know, WoW looks and plays NOTHING like those cinematics make it seem. And that's nothing new for Blizzard, they've been doing that since they first put out the original Warcraft :) With their ability to craft beautiful and realistic CGI, I'm STILL amazed that Blizzard hasn't made and out put their own Warcraft and Starcraft full length motion pictures or television shows, they'd make a fortune off either venture. Then again, with the literally 10s of millions they make PER MONTH from WoW subs alone..why should they bother :)

DDO could definately use some cinematics that draw you into the stories being told, from Tempest Spine(which is the story hinted at in the opening cinematic) to Amrath, there's SO many stories going on and good cinematics would make us give a kobold's tail about doing them, give that immersion we've missing with just little text lines of story. Imagine if you would...watching the story of Venn and his torture at the hands of the kobolds in the Waterworks quests...a history lesson about Eberron and the Giants and Xen'drik under their rule as you get started on STK...the history of the Silver Flame in Catacombs...and on and on and on..there's SO many stories taking place all around us in Stormreach alone, not to mention all the places outside of it!

Sadly, those all take money and time to make, not to mention skilled artisans to craft them(CGI work is NOT game development!). Turbine didn't have that when DDO started, so we got very little in the way of them. The opening cinematic was 1 of many that shipped originally..we also had 1 for each class at the time, showing off the abilities and 'job' of each class. We lost the class cinematics some time ago..before F2P I think..but I don't really remember when they vanished, could be the F2P was when they removed them, to make the d/l of the game smaller? Movie files ain't small, so that has to be considered, especially in a F2P game with a d/l only distribution model.

Personally, I think it'd be a great move for Turbine to take with DDO, but I'm not certain the potential gains in new customers would offset the cost of making them, not if it's done properly :)

[AcesRHigh]

If I used those videos as my basis for what I bought, I'd being suing Blizzard for breach of contract for failure to provide the content their cinematics appear to be offering up as what I'd see and experience in WoW.

Actually.. they usually release a cinematic completely CGI content as an "announcement" trailer, but the release the following cinematics with actual in-game models and areas. You can go through their media section and see this first hand, as they've done this for each expansion. Almost every game does this... it's almost an industry standard. You're going to be sorely disappointed if believe CGI cinematics are how its supposed to look with every game and probably be "suing" every video game company. While not as crisp and "CGI like" the actual game is, the actual cinematic shows different aspects of what can actually be done in game. (IE shifting, hunter with pet, warlock with infernal, etc)


As for a WoW movie, it's been "coming out" forever, hopefully released this year and probably to be announced at Blizzcon alongside the new MMO (codename: Titan) they're working on.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_(film)

On your statement about needing money (sounded like you were saying a massive budget) to do a great cinematic, this is very much not the case. Watch any of the many good wow music videos/machinima out there and you'll see most of it is easily accomplished by people like myself, with minimal 3D animation, in-game models, and video editing experience.

(Edit: This is one of my favorites. http://vimeo.com/5241163 )

And back to the subject of great cinematics, check out this one for League of Legends.. which is essentially a pumped up version of DoTA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzMnCv_lPxI

[Phemt81]

So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

You translated DDO in french and deutsch, what about videos? ;)

[KristovK]

AcesRHigh, I was referring to Blizzard's cinematics for all their games, not just WoW. And that little machinima, not too bad, but it doesn't show WoW gameplay and it's definately NOT done using the game engine(says so on the page in case you miss it but you clearly see it anyway). Then again, neither are the cinematics Blizzard puts out for WoW once they actually release new content. Using a game model isn't using the game engine, not even close. And that's fine, it makes for great storytelling and increases sales and Blizzard has always been good about disclaimers..'this does not represent actual game play'.

GOOD cinematics, like the opening one for DDO and the trailers that Blizzard puts out, THOSE take time and money to make, some guy sitting at home with his off the shelf 3d prog ain't making those in a week. Now, Turbine could use the game engine and make cinematics for quest intros, storyline and all, it wouldn't be as expensive as the opening cinematic was, and could be done in less time, but it would still require people who are trained to do them not to mention all the time for post editing to get the ugly out of them and make them look good..and time is money. This is a professional game development company, not some guy sitting at home with some off the shelf 3d programs making something for his own entertainment, so it has to look better then you can make at home. I did 3d work, I know what it takes to make GOOD cinematics, and I've yet to see any good machinima that used the game engine..ever.

As to the WoW movie..yeah..since that info is now 2 years out of date, I wouldn't hold my breath :) But we can hope!

[AcesRHigh]

GOOD cinematics, like the opening one for DDO and the trailers that Blizzard puts out, THOSE take time and money to make, some guy sitting at home with his off the shelf 3d prog ain't making those in a week.


Again, I disagree with the "money" aspect of your comment. Most of the 3d cinematics, 3d movies (ie: avatar), and even home-made 3d youtube uploads etc.. are made with the same programs (usually maya or 3ds max). Most college students readily have them accessible at their homes and most people who know how to use a p2p program have them as well. As far back as I can remember I've known people with a copy of 3d studio max lying around which is more than enough with the addition of some video editing software (ie Vegas/After effects/premiere). It's just not that hard anymore... not near as hard as it used to be to create the most life-like stunning 3d animations on a basic home computer with a half decent graphics card.

And on using the game engine to create a good cinematic, that would require way too much work, it's completely unheard of, and I doubt it's even remotely feasible with the current code.

[KristovK]

Again, I disagree with the "money" aspect of your comment. Most of the 3d cinematics, 3d movies (ie: avatar), and even home-made 3d youtube uploads etc.. are made with the same programs (usually maya or 3ds max). Most college students readily have them accessible at their homes and most people who know how to use a p2p program have them as well. As far back as I can remember I've known people with a copy of 3d studio max lying around which is more than enough with the addition of some video editing software (ie Vegas/After effects/premiere). It's just not that hard anymore... not near as hard as it used to be to create the most life-like stunning 3d animations on a basic home computer with a half decent graphics card.

And on using the game engine to create a good cinematic, that would require way too much work, it's completely unheard of, and I doubt it's even remotely feasible with the current code.

The money comes from the salaries those people making the cinematics get paid, not the software required..well..the salaries of the people making the custom plugins comes into play there actually, since that's the real difference between what you can do at home with 3dMax and what the guys over at Turbine can do with it :)

Using the game engine engine to create good cinematics..not only possible, but it's been done, many times in many games. Quake series..Unreal series..quite a few other FPS titles have done it, as have other genres with their game engines, like Bioware with a number of their products over the years. Takes time due to the fact that it's just better to code all the action then let people move the characters around, then you've got your post production work, which is to remove the ugly and make it smooth and pretty. But it's been done, done very well indeed, using the game engine by professional studios.

[AcesRHigh]

Using the game engine engine to create good cinematics..not only possible, but it's been done, many times in many games.

Using the game looks worse than using a 3d animation program in 90% of the cases unless your game is already pretty flawless looking in terms of graphics. Adding a high res model alone can break the game prompting more coding. Adding lighting, better water, better fire, etc... Way too expensive and time consuming. As for creating extra plugins, not needed. Everything is already out there and most can be purchased for peanuts compared to what it would cost to create it. The act of simply "smoothing" and adding additional polys to a low poly model makes any animation look 100% better and more realistic in most cases. Lighting, particle effects, shadows, etc.. all out there for the world to use. You're over-complicating it man..

[KristovK]

Using the game looks worse than using a 3d animation program in 90% of the cases unless your game is already pretty flawless looking in terms of graphics. Adding a high res model alone can break the game prompting more coding. Adding lighting, better water, better fire, etc... Way too expensive and time consuming. As for creating extra plugins, not needed. Everything is already out there and most can be purchased for peanuts compared to what it would cost to create it. The act of simply "smoothing" and adding additional polys to a low poly model makes any animation look 100% better and more realistic in most cases. Lighting, particle effects, shadows, etc.. all out there for the world to use. You're over-complicating it man..

Look up the game The Witcher, tell me their cinematics aren't beautiful..and that's all game engine there. And that game is a few years old AND it's using a rather older game engine, the old Bioware Aurora engine from NWN. They revamped it a bit, but they were rather limited in just how much they could do with it, but they got amazing results none the less. Post production can do wonders, especially when dealing with low poly models and lack of properly rendered lighting and effects. Takes more then a simple 3d package and some video editing software to make good animation, it also takes a robust graphics software set and skill. That's what the dev studios use, not the stripped down free versions of those software packages you can get as a school or student...those ain't the same things as the commercial packages :)

Oh, if you do want to do that stuff for a living, learn to make your own plugins..there IS a reason dev studios do it instead of buying them, typically due to proprietary coding for your assets, be that models, game engine, artwork or whatever. Well worth the time to learn how to do it yourself, you never have to worry about plugins :)

[fire_claws]

And the Kobolds!

There is a renewed focus in this area. Partly because I'm annoying about it.


As for videos, there are really two views on this: Do you show gameplay, or do you show a crazy cinematic? I really like both but it depends on where in the cycle the game is. Pre-release a good cinematic can do wonders for the tradeshow/TV/gametrailers to get the ball rolling, but I think after that first one it should be all gameplay and Dev speak.
So a question...should DDO still be making videos?

I was thinking about this. For the basic story lines or whatever, sure, use the ingame models and make a vid for that particular story. But for stuff like raids i could see a cinema at the end of the quest when you recall out when you are done. I, for one, think that a video of a party bringing down Velah in a massive blaze of glory to be pretty neat. Or mabey, the end of DQ. Show her cutting up a few party members and them getting a heal. Then on to the act of dismembering her, limb by limb.

just a thought.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Wow Nostalgia eh? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCwmG7XYKp8

Best WoW vid ever. And its fan made! :o