How high are Epic saves?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just what is the typical Fort save for a monster in an Epic or lvl 20+ quest?

Cause I play a whole lot more than the typical casual player. And my Wiz 20 Drow, PM, only reaches a 38 save DC.

Although with only a slight bit of more grinding I could easily hit 42 I think.

[Mrmorphling]

It varies wildly from mob to mob: typical caster type will fail 19 out of 20 a 40+ fort, while a typical fighter type will average 50% on the same 40dc; 40 is a resonable goal to aim for a first life with a moderate investment of time.

[perylousdemon]

My assassin has a DC40 assassinate, and she succeeds about 80% of the time in epics (higher against casters, of course).

[Shade]

Much lower then they should be imo. Especially versus insta kills.

[perylousdemon]

Much lower then they should be imo. Especially versus insta kills.

They already raised them once and made a good number of monks completely worthless in epics. What more do you want?

[Kakashi67]

They already raised them once and made a good number of monks completely worthless in epics. What more do you want?

For everyone to be a barbarian.

[Shade]

They already raised them once and made a good number of monks completely worthless in epics. What more do you want?

Incorrect.

Epic saves were massively nerfed in the DDO worst update ever (the dreaded u5) when they introduced the "minion" debuff. And not just for minions, but across the board for all monsters, evne ones that did not get the debuff.

It's true U9 increased minion saves (seems like by almots nothing tho imo, maybe 1-2 points tops). They are still massively lower the the real true original epic that I enjoyed.

Far as monks becomign worthless, also incorrect.
Original epics monks were 100% worthless. As they should be =)
Now there actually rather good in epic, which is certainly a mistake.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The reason I ask is so I can have an exact understanding of what DCs get what kinds of results....how often... In lvl appropriate quests.

Epics mostly, but also Hard/Elite Amrath, or other lvl 20+ quests.


And compare that to what a casual player can accomplish.


I have been turned down from Epics on my caster because I have less than a 40DC. And that was when people just held everything. (and most LFMs wanted a 42)

Totally unfair that a casual player (or a vet who just doens't like to grind stuff...or especially TR) is not even allowed in certain content....

And now we have people who claim the high DCs are overpowered.... :(
(ok....they are only overpowered when they result in the caster getting the kill)



Anyway, I just want to be able to put things in perspecitive.

Normal, average players are "not" getting very many insta-kills...from what I have seen.

A few uber guys who may represent a large number of players....but who are still a small percentage of the masses...... claim to get a whole lot of insta-kills.

There will always be someone with a higher DC. There will always be a better player out there.

You either allow insta-kills or you don't.
You either raise the DCs to a point where only the uberest of the uberest have a chance or you leave them at a lvl that allows the casual guy to have a chance also.....or you don't...

Someone is always going to have the best possible DC...that is super high above what the average guy will have.

Setting a DC to try to tame those guys is a futile effort.

And blanket imunities suck! that is why they changes Epic ward to begin with!


Of course, I still think the real problem is a lack of end game content. And variety in that content.

(btw, do people insta-kill everything in hard/elite amrath quests? ToD? I know I haven't seen that yet.)

Make real lvl 20+ content. With variety of monsters/wards/immunities.....
And everyone gets a time to shine!





(Epic Bugbears and Ogres....and especially Sahuagen! is Stupid!)

[grodon9999]

Far as monks becomign worthless, also incorrect.
Original epics monks were 100% worthless. As they should be =)
Now there actually rather good in epic, which is certainly a mistake.

That is possibly the stupidest thing ever said on these forums.

[perylousdemon]

Incorrect.Far as monks becomign worthless, also incorrect.
Original epics monks were 100% worthless. As they should be =)
Now there actually rather good in epic, which is certainly a mistake.

Really? Because my monk could stun stuff just fine before u9. After u9, I'm lucky I can stun casters, let alone melee types. Which is kind of odd, since my rogue has no trouble assassinating anything, and it's the same exact DC versus the same exact save (DC40 vs fort). My ranged stun works most of the time, but it's got a longer cooldown, costs more ki, and is fairly useless against casters (DC44 vs will).

[grodon9999]

Really? Because my monk could stun stuff just fine before u9. After u9, I'm lucky I can stun casters, let alone melee types. Which is kind of odd, since my rogue has no trouble assassinating anything, and it's the same exact DC versus the same exact save (DC40 vs fort). My ranged stun works most of the time, but it's got a longer cooldown, costs more ki, and is fairly useless against casters (DC44 vs will).

Does stunning fist still give a chance to stun off the off-hand proc? Stunning blow does not which is why I dropped the feat because I found even with a 50 DC it wasn't landing enough to justify having a weighted weapon in the off-hand. Anything reliably stunnable at 40 DC had so few HP that pure DPS would kill them fast enough anyway.

Just play a barbarian, it's what Turbine wants.

[krackythehoodedone]

I know that in some Epic quests the Monsters have much tougher saves.

EDQ1 & EDA are apparently the two whose denizens are the most difficult to enscorcle

But your 50 DC brigade wipe them out too

[Hendrik]

Much lower then they should be imo. Especially versus insta kills.

/agreed!

[perylousdemon]

Does stunning fist still give a chance to stun off the off-hand proc? Stunning blow does not which is why I dropped the feat because I found even with a 50 DC it wasn't landing enough to justify having a weighted weapon in the off-hand. Anything reliably stunnable at 40 DC had so few HP that pure DPS would kill them fast enough anyway.

Just play a barbarian, it's what Turbine wants.

I think it does have an offhand proc chance. Sometimes, when I successfully stun something, I hear two "dinks", which I assume is the main hand proc followed by an offhand proc.

As for the barbarian comment, I have a mutt already (FB I/kensei II), and she's able to hit well over DC40 for her stunning blow. Haven't played her in a while, so I'm not sure of the exact number (47 or 48 with a stunning +10 maul, I think). Hard to know the exact number since they changed the button to no longer list the DC.

[Hendrik]

You either raise the DCs to a point where only the uberest of the uberest have a chance or you leave them at a lvl that allows the casual guy to have a chance also.....or you don't...

Classic "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"

Someone is always going to have the best possible DC...that is super high above what the average guy will have.

Just a plain fact of playing any MMO.

Setting a DC to try to tame those guys is a futile effort.

Agreed! How can you balance vs a 99DC?

And blanket imunities suck! that is why they changes Epic ward to begin with!

They so do/did!!!

Make real lvl 20+ content. With variety of monsters/wards/immunities.....
And everyone gets a time to shine!

Variety is the spice of life and I cannot agree anymore!!!




In red.

[grodon9999]

The reason I ask is so I can have an exact understanding of what DCs get what kinds of results....how often... In lvl appropriate quests.

Epics mostly, but also Hard/Elite Amrath, or other lvl 20+ quests.


And compare that to what a casual player can accomplish.


I have been turned down from Epics on my caster because I have less than a 40DC. And that was when people just held everything. (and most LFMs wanted a 42)

Totally unfair that a casual player (or a vet who just doens't like to grind stuff...or especially TR) is not even allowed in certain content....

Honestly, if casual players can’t hang in the hardest content in the game I do not think this is a tragedy. The hardest content in the game should be balanced towards well-geared and experienced players. And my goodness do we have a hell of a lot of over-powered level 20 gear now!..Just TR’d my main and the difference between level 19 and level 20 is bigger than level 12 was to level 19.

A 40-42 DC does fine, a 45 DC is awesome but is NOT as over-powered as many on this forum would lead you to believe.



And now we have people who claim the high DCs are overpowered.... :(
(ok....they are only overpowered when they result in the caster getting the kill)



Anyway, I just want to be able to put things in perspecitive.

Normal, average players are "not" getting very many insta-kills...from what I have seen.

A few uber guys who may represent a large number of players....but who are still a small percentage of the masses...... claim to get a whole lot of insta-kills.

There will always be someone with a higher DC. There will always be a better player out there.

You either allow insta-kills or you don't.
You either raise the DCs to a point where only the uberest of the uberest have a chance or you leave them at a lvl that allows the casual guy to have a chance also.....or you don't...

Someone is always going to have the best possible DC...that is super high above what the average guy will have.

Setting a DC to try to tame those guys is a futile effort.

Various mobs with various weakenesses is the better was to handle this. If you need to attack the weak-save you can’t one-trick-pony your way to victory



And blanket imunities suck! that is why they changes Epic ward to begin with!

Blanket immunities do suck, but when you don’t have them you are going to need to accept the fact that the over-powered amongst us will eventually trivialize content. I can accept this, we just need more and newer stuff to do at cap.




Of course, I still think the real problem is a lack of end game content. And variety in that content.

(btw, do people insta-kill everything in hard/elite amrath quests? ToD? I know I haven't seen that yet.)

Make real lvl 20+ content. With variety of monsters/wards/immunities.....
And everyone gets a time to shine!

And this is the primary reason why Epic has failed. You cannot have an end-game with only one difficulty level in a game such as DDO where the power difference between the have and the have-nots is as profound as it is here. If “epic” is all there is to do at cap then everyone needs to be able to do it, hence it becomes a joke to the better-geared and more experienced players.

Level 20-25 content with a N/H/E setting is a better way to address this. Normal for those who are new and just capped, Elite for those who need to up things up a few notxhes to fins a challenge. Elite ToD is still the hardest raid in the game and it’s not “epic.”

This is why I have some faith in DDO’s future, the new mission packs as of late have been GREAT material. A hell of a lot of fun and they scale up to be much more difficult on elite. The lordsmarch quests are lover level than the GH quests, but the GH quest on elite are easier. To me it looks like the newer stuff is designed for TR’s in mind. The “In the Flesh” end-fight on Elite (which is level 17) is harder than the end-fight in many of the “epics,” I’m really looking forward to seeing what we have in store for the new level 20 raid.

[Kinerd]

The first time I took my barb into epic Claw, I was excited to try out his Epic Ratkiller, forgetting that scorpions are Vermin and not Animals. He had a 43 DC Stunning Blow, was very successful against the healing scorpions and was not successful enough against the fighter types.

[Eso]

Much lower then they should be imo. Especially versus insta kills.

Low?
You need around 45-46+ dc to kill in sands w/o fail and yes u gonna fail with less than a 45 ... i have 43 atm and never can kill a MAGE/CASTER/DIVINE gnoll w/o energy drain and fail again.

(not sure in sands) ...most anoying saves in the game .

in redfens u need around 44-45 with no fail (no drain but can fail sometimes)

in carnival u need around 39-41 with no fail (no drain)

in house d not sure i dont have that pack but the ppl say is so easy.

in Ecrono u need around 45 - 46 vs a melee

in evon u need around 44-46 to kill the wfs

All tested by me or friends ofc u can fail with the dcs ill test...its just a aproximate number to the exactly one.

[Lissyl]

Various mobs with various weakenesses is the better was to handle this. If you need to attack the weak-save you can’t one-trick-pony your way to victory

I like this idea, but I would prefer to see it expanded.

Do any of you remember 2nd Edition PnP? Or 1st Edition? I'm sure some of you do, and you would remember the dreaded Ultraloths. 110% MR (90%, IIRC, in 2nd Ed, flat). Or some of the other 100% MR monsters that were literally designed as caster killers. Or there was the converse...remember the 1st Edition monster (what was it again? Shocking Lizard, I think?) that, under the right circumstances, had 1HD damage of 10-100/rd? If that doesn't say 'melee killer', I don't know what does.

Everyone is upset that casters can mow down monsters with instakills. "They're one trick ponies!" But melee ARE one-trick ponies (to some degree by virtue of Turbine's failure to make epic mobs hittable by melee CC). Stack up the STR and start the chainsaw, it dies NO MATTER WHAT.

Envision an epic golem with me. It has an AC of 250 and DR of 1000. It doesn't hit HARD, but it NEVER misses (think a BAB of over 100, since that's about where AC can go at max). It's literally unhittable, un-DPS-able. But it's susceptible to being tripped. And, WHEN TRIPPED, its AC drops to reasonable levels and its DR is cut to 10, and each successive hit drops its AC by 1...or 5 if Ranged. It regens its AC at the rate of 2 pt/second, though, so you have to keep it down and being beat on. One final caveat -- it can't be destroyed by melee weaponry. At AC0, it's AC-regeneration stops and it slows, but it takes a powerful spell to finish it off. Say, a minimum 400-damage Polar Ray.

Is that an EPIC mob? I think so. It requires a full party of characters, each with different specializations, to beat optimally. Every class has to do its part, and not a single one-trick-pony will be able to beat it -- which also means it can't be soloed. Now move some good loot to this dungeon so people will have incentive to run it in addition to the challenge. Then put about 5 of these in that dungeon. Make variations on the themes.

It's an extreme example I made up off the top of my head while typing this out. Many other things could be done to ensure epic viability and REMOVE epic soloability. Personally, the idea of a 'soloable epic' is nonsensical to me. Kinna offtopic a lil I suppose, but in-line with the thread. Sorry so long. :)

[Bodic]

fort is resonable as I have seen them save 75% on assassinate dc39

my firee stanced monk has landed quivering palm, curse of the void, and triple dark very regular like with junk DC's.

a first life wisdom based AoV can land implossions often say 80% not severely gear for DC's just a napkin.

[sirgog]

Few mobs have any save over about 33.

The only living mobs I can think of that aren't totally obliterated by a DC 42 Wail are some Drow (due to SR), some Outsiders, some Scorpions and some monsters of the Giant type.

Even if mobs save on an 8 or 9 against your Wail, it's still the most powerful spell you can cast if you can get 6+ mobs into the area of effect.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I do not want to TR my favorite chars.

And I do not want to grind for rare loot.

Yet I do want to do the hardest content. And so far I can.
In fact, I find I am beter at handling the hardest stuff in the game than the average completionist-I-have-everything-I-could-ever-want guy.

Partially because I have way more experience than they do. And also because you can get good gear without grinding....and so far the game does not require the rare loot.

I think grinding till you drop is stupid. And I do not want to see that kind of play rewarded....not in the way that gives them grinder-dude-only content anyway.


But the fact is...that a casual melee guy can do anything in the game... just fine.
It's only the people that depend on DCs that are being hurt when you raise the saves to try to challenge the uber guys.

Like someone hinted at: it seems you either have to be an uber caster, or you are stuck playing a casual Barbarian... if you want to do tough content.

Not right IMO....not the way I want this game to go. This isn't that other game... ;)


Anyway....plenty of ways to challenge everyone here...in the same dungeons. They just have to get creative.

The debuffing Beholders in some of the newer elite quests is a good step. I hate them...cause my build depends on my buffs. But they do a great job of challenging everyone (every build/gear set) equally.

(ship buffs are a big mistake for the game though IMO)

Anyway....drop some mobs in a quest that have all the same gear and buffs we do...and see how many TRs get killed. ;)

Bigest problem is heavy fort...which hurts Rogues more than anyone else.
Deathblock items would hurt some mages.

But then.....code Mordekainen's to actually do something to a monster... and then feel free to equip them however you want IMO.

But variety will allow people to use their special super powers in one room, and then have to overcome Kryptonite in the next room.....

IMO that is how you make things both useful and not over-useful.

[Rawel_San]

Few mobs have any save over about 33.

The only living mobs I can think of that aren't totally obliterated by a DC 42 Wail are some Drow (due to SR), some Outsiders, some Scorpions and some monsters of the Giant type.

Even if mobs save on an 8 or 9 against your Wail, it's still the most powerful spell you can cast if you can get 6+ mobs into the area of effect.

Totally obliterated = kill 1 out of 2 mobs to you?

Scorps in epic claw have to have saves at least close to 40 since they have no SR and they still take at least
4 tries to kill without deleveling and very often save multiple times even after energy drains.

Elite amrath the saves are a little harder to judge since the mobs have some SR. Even so a 45 dc gets me about
1 out of 4 but the usual approach is debuff then circle then wail which usually kills half.

The ellies in sins have a save of at least 40 since I do not remember landing a FoD without deleveling first.

The mobs in the often run house P quests (PC, Snitch and eTop) have saves <25 in my estimation since I seem
to get them 19/20 times. The ones in Small problem seem to be closer to 35 again symbol of death+ crushing
despair is a must to get to 3/4 killed.

The sahuagin in red fens seem usually to be around 27-28 on the casters (almost always get them) go up
to 30ish on fighters and at least 35+ on the trolls (1/2-2/3 is usually as good as I can get even after circle of
death).

The tieflings in eChrono are around 25 on caster types, 33+ on fighter/ranger types.

Only quest in the desert I have run enough to be able to judge is OOB and the SR on the drow means
wail/circle is close to useless and even the scorrow seem to save almost all the time.

eDA with an enchant DC of 43 is fine. While most things will break within a fairly short period (6-12 secs on
casters) the fort saves on both casters and ellies are low enough that 45 necro dc lands almost always.
The spellbows are harder and usually save about 1/4 or so.

[Rawel_San]

I<snip>

But the fact is...that a casual melee guy can do anything in the game... just fine.
It's only the people that depend on DCs that are being hurt when you raise the saves to try to challenge the uber guys.

Like someone hinted at: it seems you either have to be an uber caster, or you are stuck playing a casual Barbarian... if you want to do tough content.

<snip>

This is actually hugely untrue. The only reason that casual melee's can do anything is that you can't gauge
how much dps they are actually doing. If you have 1 eSoS fighter/barbs in the group 1 good rogue, 1 good monk a good caster
and an ok healer it is utterly inconsequential if the last guy is beating on the devils in eDA with a club of the
holy flame. But the moment all 4 of your melees are dex based rangers with no or basic DR breakers and without
good gear you will find that you end up wiping on mana issues.

One of the biggest falacies of this game is that it is easier to do hard content on a melee then on a healer/
caster. It's not easier it's just that if the dancing ball or hold doesn't land everyone sees it and starts shouting
that it's the casters fault they are wiping. If the dps just stands there tickling the held/dancing mobs it's
a lot harder to tell especially if it's just one out of the 4 that's tickling and the remaining 3 are well geared.

[redoubt]

Just TR’d my main and the difference between level 19 and level 20 is bigger than level 12 was to level 19.
.

/sidebar

Which is bigger:

11 to 12

or

19 to 20?

My money is on 11 to 12. Putting on greensteel at that level and the other raid loot over the next couple levels is a lot more relative power increase than what I'm going to get when I put on 5 epic items and a TOD set at level 20

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is actually hugely untrue. The only reason that casual melee's can do anything is that you can't gauge
how much dps they are actually doing. If you have 1 eSoS fighter/barbs in the group 1 good rogue, 1 good monk a good caster
and an ok healer it is utterly inconsequential if the last guy is beating on the devils in eDA with a club of the
holy flame. But the moment all 4 of your melees are dex based rangers with no or basic DR breakers and without
good gear you will find that you end up wiping on mana issues.

One of the biggest falacies of this game is that it is easier to do hard content on a melee then on a healer/
caster. It's not easier it's just that if the dancing ball or hold doesn't land everyone sees it and starts shouting
that it's the casters fault they are wiping. If the dps just stands there tickling the held/dancing mobs it's
a lot harder to tell especially if it's just one out of the 4 that's tickling and the remaining 3 are well geared.

My next LFM is going to say: "Epic Devil Assault" "Link Epic Sword of Shadows" :cool:

[Rawel_San]

My next LFM is going to say: "Epic Devil Assault" "Link Epic Sword of Shadows" :cool:

I wasn't saying you need an eSoS to do eDA. Not by a long shot. What I'm pointing out is that you usually
have 3 other people to pick up your slack if you're the melee. That's usually not the case when you're casting
or healing. At best there will be a bard that can help with some cc or some healing or a little of both.

I can assure you if you take 4 casually geared dps into eDA even with a good caster you ill either end up chugging pots or you will wipe.
I tried casting an eDA for a pug the other day and even though in guild groups I end up with mana to wail and fod in 3rd wave and the healer hardly
goes through 2/3rds of his bar in the first 3 waves, in the pug I was down to 1/4th of my mana by wave 2 and that was using sla's for bats and scorps
to save some.

The difference in DPS output in attrition fights like the first part of eDA is huge.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

I have first life PM - 42 DC or 43 DC with yugo. Gear wasn't too hard to get.

If you energy drain first then finger/wail it feels like 90-95% success rate. (non scientific)

What I did find, that I haven't seen covered, is Spell Pen. I was having Spel Pen failure on a roll of 5 or less until I took all the Spel Pen feats and enhancements. Now it fails on a 3 or less without debuffs in E Chrono for example. With debuffs it is 95% success (only fails on a 1)

So if you debuff Epic mobs first then hit them then it is almost a 100% success rate if you max Spell Pen and a 43 DC.

Hope that helps.

[Rawel_San]

I have first life PM - 42 DC or 43 DC with yugo. Gear wasn't too hard to get.

If you energy drain first then finger/wail it feels like 90-95% success rate. (non scientific)

What I did find, that I haven't seen covered, is Spell Pen. I was having Spel Pen failure on a roll of 5 or less until I took all the Spel Pen feats and enhancements. Now it fails on a 3 or less without debuffs in E Chrono for example. With debuffs it is 95% success (only fails on a 1)

So if you debuff Epic mobs first then hit them then it is almost a 100% success rate if you max Spell Pen and a 43 DC.

Hope that helps.

There are no wizard debuffs for spell pen. If you can get a melee to slot shattermantle that is awesome.

[Mister_Peace]

Envision an epic golem with me...

An encounter that allows only one solution? That may have been acceptable back in the AD&D days, but such a restrictive design wouldn't fly today.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

There are no wizard debuffs for spell pen. If you can get a melee to slot shattermantle that is awesome.

Correct - I meant you need to debuff for saves AND you also need max out Spell Pen if you want to land reliably.

Example - I had 43 DC / debuffed mobs and still had them save 25% of the time until I realised that Spell pen was the problem. I reset enhancements/feats/gear and dropped that to 15% in E Chrono.

Spell Pen varies greatly from mob to mob as well. Drow in Sands have the highest Spell Pen I believe.

[Kromize]

Everyone is just mad cuz their kill count wasn't the highest...

[Lissyl]

An encounter that allows only one solution? That may have been acceptable back in the AD&D days, but such a restrictive design wouldn't fly today.

Well, given that tripping as a 'solution' could come from melee or divines, and a divine could nail the (example) 400 point spell (meaning a spell that hits for 400, the polar ray was just off the top of my head) does leave 'options'. It doesn't leave MANY options, but as long as there are 'many' options, the content will be too easy for SOME class to beat, ~or~ some class is going to be ridiculously left behind. Since people seem to want to get past One Class To Rule Them All (or One Role, as the case may be), then they're going to have to accept a break SOMEWHERE.

Besides, like I said it was just something right off the top of my head as I was typing. I'm certain a playerbase this god could come up with some inventive ways that include everyone. But if people don't WANT to include everyone, then we shouldn't be hearing anymore calls for nerfing casters ATM either, yannowwhatImean? It just seems hard to justify both complaints when they're on opposite ends of the spectrum.

[elricken]

Incorrect.

Epic saves were massively nerfed in the DDO worst update ever (the dreaded u5) when they introduced the "minion" debuff. And not just for minions, but across the board for all monsters, evne ones that did not get the debuff.

It's true U9 increased minion saves (seems like by almots nothing tho imo, maybe 1-2 points tops). They are still massively lower the the real true original epic that I enjoyed.

Far as monks becomign worthless, also incorrect.
Original epics monks were 100% worthless. As they should be =)
Now there actually rather good in epic, which is certainly a mistake.

Monks were amazing in epics before the minion debuff, unnerfed attack speed with weighted 5% wraps was god.

[Shade]

You need around 45-46+ dc to kill in sands w/o fail

Exactly the issue.

Epic is mean to challenge the best of the best. If you can insta kill a mob without fail, that is absolutely not challenging.

No single mob in epic no matter how weak should fail a death spell save 95% of the time without debuffing first.

If it was at all balanced against those DCs while remaining challenging we'd have at most a 50% success rate against mobs meant to be easy to insta kill (casters), and a 5% against ones meant to be hard to kill (melee).

Given the incredible amount of debuffs available, we can quickly bring a 5% to 50+% anyways, and for epic to be truely challenging, debuffing should be essential to land a insta kill.

Anyways this discussing is pointless, as im not talking about U9 as you guys keep mentioning. Im talking about the major epic nerf in u5 that really killed a lot of the quests challenge for me.

My point was just:
There are still a couple tough epics out there, just sadly most quests feature weak mobs with fort saves aren't really balanced against what casters can get DCs up these days.

Quick list for OP in terms of where you might run into trouble:
Most any desert melee mob - aside from maybe the generic non-typed gnolls in cof which are weak: as mentioned their saves are enough to slightly challenge a max DC caster, tho not really after a energy drain. a lower DC caster would have to use curse/crushing despair + energy drain first for a good chance at sucess. You shouldn't have too much trouble against the caster types, tho for offering of blood many are drow which means they have mega SR, if not fort save.
Epic DA:
Mainly the first wave being mostly oranged named, and the last waves orthons have very good fort saves.
Epic Chrono:
All the devils are oranged named. Tieflings of all sorts have terrible saves in all categories, even vs melee types an energy drain will pretty much guarentee suceess even with a moderate dc.

Every other epic? go nuts, there pretty low, especially casters and even most ranger types.

PS: Yea I rarely play a caster in epic (tho i have played my caster in pretty much every epic). My knowledge comes from heavy use of stunnign blow, which being a fort save exactly like insta kills gives me a good idea of the saves. (and a fort save I can easily manipulate to many different values via rage/pots/cookies.)

[grodon9999]

/sidebar

Which is bigger:

11 to 12

or

19 to 20?

My money is on 11 to 12. Putting on greensteel at that level and the other raid loot over the next couple levels is a lot more relative power increase than what I'm going to get when I put on 5 epic items and a TOD set at level 20


Only 5? :)

[Rawel_San]

Low?
You need around 45-46+ dc to kill in sands w/o fail and yes u gonna fail with less than a 45 ... i have 43 atm and never can kill a MAGE/CASTER/DIVINE gnoll w/o energy drain and fail again.

(not sure in sands) ...most anoying saves in the game .

in redfens u need around 44-45 with no fail (no drain but can fail sometimes)

in carnival u need around 39-41 with no fail (no drain)

in house d not sure i dont have that pack but the ppl say is so easy.

in Ecrono u need around 45 - 46 vs a melee

in evon u need around 44-46 to kill the wfs

All tested by me or friends ofc u can fail with the dcs ill test...its just a aproximate number to the exactly one.

You say that you can't kill a gnoll caster without a drain at 43 dc and at the same time at 45 you claim it's
no fail? The mob rolls a d20 when he's saving, that means if 45 was no fail (or as no fail as it gets which 19/20)
then 43 would be 17/20 not can't kill. A single energy drain lowers a mobs saves by between 2d4 points.

The numbers you posted are way off. 45 dc gets eVon5 wf about 1/3 of the time (putting their saves
at about 38) and the no fail dc at 57 (58 gets you the same thing).

Red fens have a no fail on the casters somewhere around 50 imo. 55+ on melees and higher for trolls.

I don't even really use instakills in the desert due to the fact that with a 45 dc the kill/try is just not worth it.

[abbadon3718]

On a side note after u9 its 2d4x2 and I fully believe mobs in ddo use weighted dice for saves. In real d&d you are correcti don't think so in ddo, hence the need for 44 dc casters to be reliable.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

On a side note after u9 its 2d4x2 and I fully believe mobs in ddo use weighted dice for saves. In real d&d you are correcti don't think so in ddo, hence the need for 44 dc casters to be reliable.

Which excludes casual players.

I have a big problem with "exclusive" LFMs. Especially since they mean "exclusive, unless you play a Barbarian."

"Casual Wizards need not apply" is not acceptible to me.

[grodon9999]

Which excludes casual players.

I have a big problem with "exclusive" LFMs. Especially since they mean "exclusive, unless you play a Barbarian."

"Casual Wizards need not apply" is not acceptible to me.

Where you see "casual" I see "lousy." If you can't do what a party needs you to do your shouldn't join a group.

Ran with a "casual" wizard last night in Epic Into the Deeps. he sucked, couldn't do what was needed to get the job done. Couldn't crowd control or kill anything reliably. Out healer wasted a bunch of SP pots and we all wasted a lot of time on this mook.

My Melees didn't go into epics for a few months until they were properly equipped to do what they needed to do. I don't expect less from anyone else.

[Emili]

Which excludes casual players.

I have a big problem with "exclusive" LFMs. Especially since they mean "exclusive, unless you play a Barbarian."

"Casual Wizards need not apply" is not acceptible to me.

A casualy geared caster actaully trumps a casualy gear barbarian actually but a well geared caster all but duplicates anything a casual caster brings to group whereas the casual barb nobody worries much about - while not bringing much to group the little it does masked in scope of the other melee, though that has nothing to do here. :p

Reading through most the opinions in this thread I've tendancy to agree with Shade. He's correct and outlined some very good points.


imho... An epic should not be labeled epic when it's difficulty levels fall well below that of elite.



Where you see "casual" I see "lousy." If you can't do what a party needs you to do your shouldn't join a group.

Ran with a "casual" wizard last night in Epic Into the Deeps. he sucked, couldn't do what was needed to get the job done. Couldn't crowd control or kill anything reliably. Out healer wasted a bunch of SP pots and we all wasted a lot of time on this mook.

My Melees didn't go into epics for a few months until they were properly equipped to do what they needed to do. I don't expect less from anyone else.

Which is my viewpoint also... I will not bring a character into an "epic" unless I am sure it may contribute. A firend brought up as he was choosing a feat the other day on his TR - another toughness vs oversized - was his question. Promptly I asked him - "What's your to-hit?" He replied +55 ... at which point everyone in the channel agree'd "Oversized". All these arcane out here mark my words that the DC you complain about is nothing compared to the "to-hit" and DC most melee need to approach to be good.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Where you see "casual" I see "lousy." If you can't do what a party needs you to do your shouldn't join a group.

Ran with a "casual" wizard last night in Epic Into the Deeps. he sucked, couldn't do what was needed to get the job done. Couldn't crowd control or kill anything reliably. Out healer wasted a bunch of SP pots and we all wasted a lot of time on this mook.

My Melees didn't go into epics for a few months until they were properly equipped to do what they needed to do. I don't expect less from anyone else.

And just what equipment did your melees need to be able to do Epics?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

A casualy geared caster actaully trumps a casualy gear barbarian actually but a well geared caster all but duplicates anything a casual caster brings to group whereas the casual barb nobody worries much about - while not bringing much to group the little it does masked in scope of the other melee, though that has nothing to do here. :p

Reading through most the opinions in this thread I've tendancy to agree with Shade. He's correct and outlined some very good points.


imho... An epic should not be labeled epic when it's difficulty levels fall well below that of elite.




Which is my viewpoint also... I will not bring a character into an "epic" unless I am sure it may contribute. A firend brought up as he was choosing a feat the other day on his TR - another toughness vs oversized - was his question. Promptly I asked him - "What's your to-hit?" He replied +55 ... at which point everyone in the channel agree'd "Oversized". All these arcane out here mark my words that the DC you complain about is nothing compared to the "to-hit" and DC most melee need to approach to be good.


You guys must be playing a different Epic game than I am.

Cause the ones I play have people who contribute and complete by meleeing on classes that do not have a full 20 BaB, and chars who have an average of a 28 Str.

Do they hit on a 2 or better? No.... But they hit.


I am also constantly amazed that you people with the best of everything you could ever want....also claim that the quests are so hard that you need a full group of people equal or better than yourselves to complete.

[Draiden]

Incorrect.

Epic saves were massively nerfed in the DDO worst update ever (the dreaded u5) when they introduced the "minion" debuff. And not just for minions, but across the board for all monsters, evne ones that did not get the debuff.

It's true U9 increased minion saves (seems like by almots nothing tho imo, maybe 1-2 points tops). They are still massively lower the the real true original epic that I enjoyed.

Far as monks becomign worthless, also incorrect.
Original epics monks were 100% worthless. As they should be =)
Now there actually rather good in epic, which is certainly a mistake.

Do you honestly think making any class 100% worthless for epic questing is good for business? The game you enjoy is a business and only here because it makes money, pays for developers and staff, etc. When that ends, so does your game. I see why you've disabled your reputation... how bad was it before you decided to do that?

[grodon9999]

And just what equipment did your melees need to be able to do Epics?

And not be worthless pikers?

- Tharnes Goggles
- At least tier II Greensteel weapons.
- A ToD necklace set that boosts to-hit - Tempest for my rangers, kensai/Shintao for my fighter.
- Whatever's needed to get around 450-500 HP for evasion toons, 550-600 for non-evasion.

You need to be able to hit almost anything on 2 with power attack on. if you miss more than you hit you're not ready for epics yet and the rest of the group is carrying you. Tharnes and a ToD set with bonus to-hit a and Spectral gloves goes a long way. i don't think that un-reasonable.

My benchmark for "epic-ready" is this: is IQ elite for you and your group a joke? If it is you're ready for epics.

[grodon9999]

You guys must be playing a different Epic game than I am.

Cause the ones I play have people who contribute and complete by meleeing on classes that do not have a full 20 BaB, and chars who have an average of a 28 Str.

Do they hit on a 2 or better? No.... But they hit.


I am also constantly amazed that you people with the best of everything you could ever want....also claim that the quests are so hard that you need a full group of people equal or better than yourselves to complete.

Who's claiming that these quests are so hard you need the best of everything? Maybe EDA? that's about it. most epics are a joke to well-equipped vets.

Your DPS drop drastically if you're not hitting almost all the time with power-attack on. others are picking up your slack and carrying you. I prefer not to carry or be carried through content. Getting your to-hit upped is a lot of work on a lot of builds, not as much as getting that 45 necro DC but if you can't hit you aren't doing damage

[Rawel_San]

Who's claiming that these quests are so hard you need the best of everything? Maybe EDA? that's about it. most epics are a joke to well-equipped vets.

Your DPS drop drastically if you're not hitting almost all the time with power-attack on. others are picking up your slack and carrying you. I prefer not to carry or be carried through content. Getting your to-hit upped is a lot of work on a lot of builds, not as much as getting that 45 necro DC but if you can't hit you aren't doing damage

To be fair you don't necessarily need to be "carried" by "better" players through most epics even if you don't
hit on a 2. Most epics can be successfully completed by a group of players of which none hit on a 2 without the
healer or the caster or what have you potting. Only few places do you really need melee that are that geared
out eDA being one where it helps but even then it is not necessary. Two fully geared out dps +caster and healer
can finish that quest without potting which means that 4 well geared melee should be able to do the same.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

And not be worthless pikers?

- Tharnes Goggles
- At least tier II Greensteel weapons.
- A ToD necklace set that boosts to-hit - Tempest for my rangers, kensai/Shintao for my fighter.
- Whatever's needed to get around 450-500 HP for evasion toons, 550-600 for non-evasion.

You need to be able to hit almost anything on 2 with power attack on. if you miss more than you hit you're not ready for epics yet and the rest of the group is carrying you. Tharnes and a ToD set with bonus to-hit a and Spectral gloves goes a long way. i don't think that un-reasonable.

My benchmark for "epic-ready" is this: is IQ elite for you and your group a joke? If it is you're ready for epics.

Tier II GS is easy, but my Monk seems to hit without it. (and every other Monk I think)

And I do not think any of those other thingsd are required...especially not a specific set Ring from ToD.


But thank you for answering my question.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Who's claiming that these quests are so hard you need the best of everything? Maybe EDA? that's about it. most epics are a joke to well-equipped vets.

Your DPS drop drastically if you're not hitting almost all the time with power-attack on. others are picking up your slack and carrying you. I prefer not to carry or be carried through content. Getting your to-hit upped is a lot of work on a lot of builds, not as much as getting that 45 necro DC but if you can't hit you aren't doing damage

I do not like to be carried through a quest either. I much prefer to play with players of similar ability.

But you say Epics are a Joke to well equipped vets, but also say that people are piking if they are not well equipped.

So somewhere along the way there are people with less equipment who can complete epics but find it challenging.

That is where I am. And I find Epic fun because they are challenging.

I don't want a flawless, loot run completed in record time.
I want end game dungeons that are challenging to my lvl of play, that I can enjoy the content, and enjoy actually being in the dungeon.

Unfortunately, I have long noticed that I am in the minority here. :(

While there are many, many players with a similar mindset, most are new players who cannot handle Epics.

Few are actually up to my lvl....without being way above my lvl, or who still want to enjoy a challenge...rather than looking for a quick loot run.

And the few who are similar to me, tend to be in tightly nit guilds who run exclusively with each other.

[Thrudh]

One of the biggest falacies of this game is that it is easier to do hard content on a melee then on a healer/
caster. It's not easier it's just that if the dancing ball or hold doesn't land everyone sees it and starts shouting
that it's the casters fault they are wiping. If the dps just stands there tickling the held/dancing mobs it's
a lot harder to tell especially if it's just one out of the 4 that's tickling and the remaining 3 are well geared.

I have to agree with this.

[Thrudh]

But you say Epics are a Joke to well equipped vets, but also say that people are piking if they are not well equipped.

I have to agree there's a wide area in the middle...

I find the shorter epics moderately challenging too and actually fun... My groups may not finish fast, but we always finish...

[grandeibra]

Gotta side with Shade on this one. Instakills on epics is way way too easy (both for casters and for assassins). To me epic instakill should need tons of debuffs and tons and tons of great gear.


I found these two comments in consecutive posts to be humorous:

"My assassin has a DC40 assassinate, and she succeeds about 80% of the time in epics (higher against casters, of course)."

"They already raised them once and made a good number of monks completely worthless in epics. What more do you want?"

[dingal]

It varies wildly from mob to mob: typical caster type will fail 19 out of 20 a 40+ fort, while a typical fighter type will average 50% on the same 40dc; 40 is a resonable goal to aim for a first life with a moderate investment of time.

I'm not even sure what that means.

A fighter with a 40DC stun fails just as often as a wizard with a 40DC Wail, both are fort saves.

To the OP, I have a 43-44 wail DC and it really depends on the quest and the mob. I find that Archers in chrono can often require an energy drain while the assasins die almost every time.

Prior to the U9 update the devils almost always required 1 or 2 energy drains so clearly they have very high saves.

Honestly though you're fine with a 40+ DC and you won't struggle in epics if you use the right combination of debuffs.

Having a lion headed belt buckle to give the Shaken effect to mobs that hit you (-2 to saves) and then using Symbol of Death in big crowds (another level drained for each pass through) combined with Crushing Despair can quickly get mob saves down by 4-6 in a heartbeat. Wailing right after that will normally wipe the entire group unless they roll high (I'd assume probably 20's).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm not even sure what that means.

A fighter with a 40DC stun fails just as often as a wizard with a 40DC Wail, both are fort saves.

To the OP, I have a 43-44 wail DC and it really depends on the quest and the mob. I find that Archers in chrono can often require an energy drain while the assasins die almost every time.

Prior to the U9 update the devils almost always required 1 or 2 energy drains so clearly they have very high saves.

Honestly though you're fine with a 40+ DC and you won't struggle in epics if you use the right combination of debuffs.

Having a lion headed belt buckle to give the Shaken effect to mobs that hit you (-2 to saves) and then using Symbol of Death in big crowds (another level drained for each pass through) combined with Crushing Despair can quickly get mob saves down by 4-6 in a heartbeat. Wailing right after that will normally wipe the entire group unless they roll high (I'd assume probably 20's).

And this sounds like the way it should be IMO.

Rogues (assassins) have low Fort saves.
Rangers (archers) have high Fort Saves.
Devils and other outsiders have high saves in every category.

Players with less than (I can't believe I'm going to use this word) "optimal" DCs... have to play smart and use the debuff tools we have been given.

They don't breeze through as easily as the uber gang, but they complete just fine by knowing the game and using tactics (in this case debuffs) to get the job done.

[grodon9999]

I do not like to be carried through a quest either. I much prefer to play with players of similar ability.

But you say Epics are a Joke to well equipped vets, but also say that people are piking if they are not well equipped.

So somewhere along the way there are people with less equipment who can complete epics but find it challenging.

That is where I am. And I find Epic fun because they are challenging.

I don't want a flawless, loot run completed in record time.
I want end game dungeons that are challenging to my lvl of play, that I can enjoy the content, and enjoy actually being in the dungeon.

Unfortunately, I have long noticed that I am in the minority here. :(

While there are many, many players with a similar mindset, most are new players who cannot handle Epics.

Few are actually up to my lvl....without being way above my lvl, or who still want to enjoy a challenge...rather than looking for a quick loot run.

And the few who are similar to me, tend to be in tightly nit guilds who run exclusively with each other.


Running epics is like getting a rectal exam, I just want to get it over with. When you've done Epic Offering of Blood literally over 100 times, for you the challenge is in the speed you can get it done.

Once you've "won DDO" you just want to get the stuff done as fast and painlessly as possible so you can get your loot and move on. I don't like grinding epics but what else is there to do at end-game? TRing to me is WAY more fun, if I could keep my tomes I'd TR every week. My most recent guys ran nearly everything on Elite at or close to level, that to me is the most fun you can have in the game.

Stuff is a challenge at first, eChrono kicked our asses the first couple of times we ran it and now it's easy for us. eDragon used to be crazy for us, now my "gimpy" elf ranger solo's base 1. The challenge mostly comes from unfamiliarity, once you learn something it's not going to be hard for long.

Some stuff is challenging and still fun, Elite tower is always fun even if you crush it because things can go wrong at any time. Some of the new content on elite is great as well. Elite Sins get's my adrenaline flowing more than 90% of the epics because the mobs are more dangerous.

But epic? Epic's are a lame pill you swallow for better toys.

[maddmatt70]

And just what equipment did your melees need to be able to do Epics?

This was back when epics were tougher, but I ran a brand new tr barbarian (had one barb past life) with no epic or raid gear. I used the korthos anger set, spec gloves non epic, and a +4 holy brust of pure good with icy burst kit on it greatsword, and everything else was +6 stat or greater false life or minos helm. I was not that far off in kills from the top melee and actually led the killcount in a few epic quests. I built my wf barb correctly of course.

I like running with people that actually think about the game and our team players. People that have to play the build they want to play even though that character is a gimp can go somewhere else as far as I am concerned. A dex based ranger in epics is not going to cut it especially if its running an epic where there is not favored enemies. I ask the question then why that person does not spec to a strength based ranger? Why does that person not run another character where it does not have favored enemies? They basically are asking the spellcasters to drink pots which is not cool. Selfish people blah because there is no room for them in a video game or the real world for that matter.