There's only one reason to door Shroud.

[Beer_Dude]

Ok 2 reasons. If you need a shard to craft and will be tring once you craft ok i get it. Other than that the only reason you should door out is if that's your last toon that can run another drunken raid run in the Shroud and you still want to do more quests with a bunch of drunk idiots.

Otherwise thrpISA no

[Namey]

I personally DDoor out if I pull a Large Scale in part 4. That, in my opinion, is enough value for a non-completed run.

[altrocks]

Ok 2 reasons. If you need a shard to craft and will be tring once you craft ok i get it. Other than that the only reason you should door out is if that's your last toon that can run another drunken raid run in the Shroud and you still want to do more quests with a bunch of drunk idiots.

Otherwise thrpISA no

Just farming Shards of Power is enough reason, especially if it's your 3rd or later toon to hit Shroud. Mats are no problem when you're running multiple toons to completion every 3 days, but the shards are BTC and required to craft. and the SoP drop rate in phase 1 is horrible. I farmed it about 7 times on my rogue before doing my first completion and still didn't have a SoP to start crafting my GS weapon. Had the weapon and mats, though. It kinda sucks. And waiting 3 days between attempts at a SoP makes it even worse.

[Atenhotep]

Ok look .. ddooring out of shroud is a TERRIBLE idea.

First off ...

The whole ddoor thing started because of an old glitch where if you recalled out you'd end up in Korthos .. but that was like forever ago ...

Why is it stupid to DDOOR out?

1. You can slash/death or simply recall .. if you DDOOR you end up still in the raid but at the beginning and in the time it takes to use the ddoor somebody can still hit the altar thus you dont get your end chest but are now on timer with a completion.

Please just stop using Ddoors in shroud.

[grayham]

Finally, I'm glad someone has said it! I think noone really questions why this happens, and just believes whoever in the raid tells them 'why' they produce a DDoor. There's a wider issue here of newer players not seeking out answers from good sources-which in turn is a wider issue on believing what you hear and not critically engaging with information. More people should look on forums where folk who actually know the answers (not me, I hasten to add) can help, debate and offer multiple perspectives. Here's some incorrect information I've seen in party/general chat that those concerned have taken at face value...

-Min2 is the best dps in the game
-Doing chrono on elite gives more named loot than normal (not 100% sure on this one, but my forum led understanding is it makes no difference)
-It is easy-i.e normal- to TR in a week
-'Pure breeds' will always be stronger than multi-class

I could go on.....

[ddohombre]

Just an uneducated question, but, why does it matter if someone else DDOORS out? Does it impact anyone else?

[Niarda]

So was not just me that thought DDoor was just a bit weird as recalling is just as fast.
At least now I know there are other Grumpy old men out there,

[Niarda]

Just an uneducated question, but, why does it matter if someone else DDOORS out? Does it impact anyone else?


Nop it does not affect any 1 else, but to me is almost as if some runs make it sound like shroud cannot be run without DDoor.

[sweez]

Not finishing shroud and then farming it just makes you start to hate it that much quicker.

[sweez]

Just an uneducated question, but, why does it matter if someone else DDOORS out? Does it impact anyone else?

You've never seen 11 people waiting at the barrier in part 5 scratching their arses waiting for 1 person to confirm whether he's out or not? Sure you can say 'it's just a minute', but why hold people's time hostage ever for that one minute?

If you REALLY REALLY MUST not finish, just /death out when Harry's at 5%

[NinjaNeed]

Whenever I run a shroud I always give people the chance to finish out before we click the last alter. I wait about 2 mins, time it takes for me to go to the kitchen and get a new drink, when I come back I count down from 5 and finish on 0. If someone says something while I am counting down then I will delay a bit longer as is required.

Very rarely am I in such a huge hurry that waiting the extra minute will effect (or is it affect? Think its effect lol) my gameplay. If a group is waiting for me then I inform them "just waiting for people to FO and ill loot and be there", if they can not be bothered to wait the 30 seconds for that then I dont want to group with them.

[ddohombre]

You've never seen 11 people waiting at the barrier in part 5 scratching their arses waiting for 1 person to confirm whether he's out or not? Sure you can say 'it's just a minute', but why hold people's time hostage ever for that one minute?

If you REALLY REALLY MUST not finish, just /death out when Harry's at 5%

Ahh..that makes sense then.

[Postumus]

You've never seen 11 people waiting at the barrier in part 5 scratching their arses waiting for 1 person to confirm whether he's out or not? Sure you can say 'it's just a minute', but why hold people's time hostage ever for that one minute?

If you REALLY REALLY MUST not finish, just /death out when Harry's at 5%

Hostage for a minute? Stand up, look out the window, pet the dog, take a drink, check your inventory... who cares, it's sixty seconds of your life. Relax. You probably spent 10x that just waiting for it to start.

[FlyingTurtle]

Just an uneducated question, but, why does it matter if someone else DDOORS out? Does it impact anyone else?

The faster you pop out, the less chance of someone hitting the altar before you do.

Also, instead of having to cancel your recall countdown, if you see the quest is completed after you arrive out of the ddoor you can just go back and collect your large chest instead of suffering a loss for the completion.

Basically the window for being screwed by someone in the party is a bit smaller.

[Blank_Zero]

Hostage for a minute? Stand up, look out the window, pet the dog, take a drink, check your inventory... who cares, it's sixty seconds of your life. Relax. You probably spent 10x that just waiting for it to start.

Some of us have done Shroud enough times that every minute in there is a wasted one.

We run it fast and get out. If we had more quests that guaranteed one or more larges a run, Shroud LFMs would be abandoned by vets completely.

That minute we are waiting on you is a minute we could be forming for the next raid in the train.

[Ytteri]

Personally I've never entered shroud without completing it, but if someone asks for a ddoor I'll throw one. It's easier than trying to explain why ddoor is bad.

[Pwesiela]

The faster you pop out, the less chance of someone hitting the altar before you do.

Also, instead of having to cancel your recall countdown, if you see the quest is completed after you arrive out of the ddoor you can just go back and collect your large chest instead of suffering a loss for the completion.

Basically the window for being screwed by someone in the party is a bit smaller.

Actually, if you take the ddoor and then see completion, you're screwed out of your chests. The portal to part 1 is down, remember? Better to recall and cancel for the chest than ddoor and be stuck without it.

That having been said, recalling is faster for everyone involved.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

Also, instead of having to cancel your recall countdown, if you see the quest is completed after you arrive out of the ddoor you can just go back and collect your large chest instead of suffering a loss for the completion.

Silly Turtle. Ddoor puts you on the wrong side of a timed portal. There's no getting back to any chests if you Ddoor, unless they changed that on the sly.

It's like taking a ddoor in... well, any raid, I guess. Except Hound. Ddoor to your heart's content in Hound. And VoN6.

[Blank_Zero]

If you DDoor and get locked out of a chest, type /stuck. It will take you back to part 5.

[NaturalHazard]

I always complete, i find its better to complete with all my toons then go solo sins when they are all on timer, seem to get way more scales from sins than I would doing shroud part 4 over and over.

[gloopygloop]

Just an uneducated question, but, why does it matter if someone else DDOORS out? Does it impact anyone else?

It impacts me because I have to listen to them whine when someone hits the altar after they've taken the ddoor, but before they leave the quest.

[RJBsComputer]

Okay, the DDoor being thrown at the end of the Shroud started from a bug in the Finished button when the level cap was 16th level. As someone posted earlier, you would be thrown back to the "welcome to DDO" location of the game. When the level cap was changed to 20th level, the bug was found and stepped on. Now if you Finish Out, you well go back to the Merdia. However, there are way to many of us old-times that have done the DDoor exit. So all we "Old Dogs" know how to do is the DDoor trick. Now if it is loaded, then throw a DDoor, but if it is a scroll, that is a waste of resources now.

[FlyingTurtle]

Actually, if you take the ddoor and then see completion, you're screwed out of your chests. The portal to part 1 is down, remember? Better to recall and cancel for the chest than ddoor and be stuck without it.

That having been said, recalling is faster for everyone involved.

Ah. I stand corrected. :) I always complete.

[Ytteri]

If you DDoor and get locked out of a chest, type /stuck. It will take you back to part 5.

Doesn't abuse of /stuck get you suspended/banned?

[cdemeritt]

Lol! there are two different things being discussed in this thread. And I think some of you are answering issue a instead of issue b:

Issue A: the OP. The OPer is one of those people who seems to take great offense to the idea that someone doesn't want to complete a shroud run with them. The op is telling people they "must" complete shrouds or they are a drunken idiot. Yes, it is better to complete in the long run, but, in the short term, they may find it better for them not to complete, there game, there reasons. Personally, the only time I don't complete a shroud is when I'm shard farming, but I don't care if others want/don't want to complete as long as they stick around long enough to kill harry in pt. 5. It is yet another example of someone saying "play my way or else" thread. I don't get why it bothers some so much. (unless it is a speed shroud, and it said so in the LFM)

Issue B: The DDoor at the end. This is a old work-a-bout for broken mechanics... these broken mechanics have been fixed for a very long time, (well over a year), yet it just won't die, and every run someone starts crying if a DDoor isn't put up. The problem with DDoor is that it puts you in a spot where you can't get back to the chests should someone hit the alter, yet you can still get the timer. hitting the recall button is (depending on your computer/server loads) usually a bit faster, and has the advantage of you have a second or two to interrupt it if someone hits the alter early... also Teleport/Word of recall both get you out really fast too. Why it is better to use other methods to get out other than DDoor is because of issue A, where someone will hit the alter as fast as they can to screw people who are recalling.

[Enoach]

As one who has been running Shroud since the beginning I understand that DDoor is a habit that many from those days retained. It is unfortunate that this same habit has been passed down to others that never experienced the original bug.

The problem - It takes only 3 times for a bad habit to stick, it takes 11 consecutive times to break a bad habit.

A Call out to all that can cast DDoor - Please help people break this habit, it is up to us Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards to help them, they can't do it themselves.


Here is a list of FASTER ways to exit Shroud before completions: All have one load screen vs two load screens

Recall - Again has a cancel button if someone does complete on you
Teleport - Not always an option for everyone - But there is a Mask in Bring the Head Of Ghola Fan, scrolls for UMD and of course the spell itself.
Greater Teleport - Take the group that wants to leave to one side. Have a friendly caster teleport the group someplace else. If your caught in the GT and don't want to go, click Cancel or Wait out the timer.
Slash Death - Takes you to your bind point - personally I dislike this option but maybe because its all the XP Death Penalties that used to exist in the game giving you a real reason not to die.


Of course it would be real nice if a Dungeon Exit was added to the back wall opposite the shrine/chests. As that UI already has a confirmation about leaving an uncompleted quest.

Also if you are leaving a group, that is kind enough to let you leave, don't dilly-dally. Get out, say Thank you, drop group. It lets them know your out.

[Kovalas]

Some of us have done Shroud enough times that every minute in there is a wasted one.

We run it fast and get out. If we had more quests that guaranteed one or more larges a run, Shroud LFMs would be abandoned by vets completely.

That minute we are waiting on you is a minute we could be forming for the next raid in the train.

Ive run Shroud as many times as most, but 1 minute is 1 minute!! Get a grip......

DD for some people is quicker loading screen and then walk through front door, then rc'in from the end room....

I dont DD

Kov

[Oakianus]

I try to always make sure to provide a Greater Teleport to the Twilight Forge for anyone who wants to leave the Shroud early. Because I'm a helper. Helping is what I do.

[Beer_Dude]

This was really an inside joke for the 20-30 of us that participate in the drunken raid runs and don't realize its their last toon to run if they complete. Thus the ddoor let's them do another run and do more shots and stay in the group.

But since this got so serious I'll put my honest 2cp in. Every Shroud I lead and I've probably led 1000 of them ( and that's not stretching it either) has offered a door in the lfm. My lfm always says semi speed run with door. How I really feel is what someone stated above. The only need to door or finish out is if you're running for shards and not mats. Emili posted on here a while back the loss ratio and disadvantage of not completing. You're way better off if looking for mats completing. You will acquire your mats faster by hitting the last chest that always has a large than the chest in part four that rarely drops larges. This is especially true if you have multiple toons flagged for Shroud. Every one of my toons (17) has at least 1 gs item and one or two weapons. I still have close to 30 large devil scales in my ing bag. No way can I acquire that many mats for that many toons by not getting the last chest. Last night in the drunken raid runs someone spoke about how they got two large scales and a +2 tome the last time they ran shroud. That doesn't happen too often but gettin 2 larges is nice and isn't even a possibility if one finishes out before the xp dings.

As far as the ddoor thing. I agree I'm one of those old timers that is too stupid to break the habit as I never recall/ddoor so I just say ddoor. But yes we should get away from ddooring and start recalling it's safer and makes more sense since we don't get sent back to Korthos anymore

But again this was an inside joke directed to a handful of people that knew what it meant. Sorry if I offended.

[Arkat]

Just an uneducated question, but, why does it matter if someone else DDOORS out? Does it impact anyone else?

Honestly, I think it's just silly. After you've been shrouding for a bit, you'll want to make a second green steel item and you'll wish you actually completed all those previous times to get the Completions needed for a Cleansing Essence.

Not only that but you're GUARANTEED a Large ingredient upon completion.

So really, there are TWO very good reasons to get the Completion every time.

(I can MAYBE see why someone doesn't want to complete because they don't have their regular Shard of Power...I'm not too convinced though.)

[KillEveryone]

I could be lucky but in part 4, if I pull a large and DDoor out and run again I'll score another large so I'll DDoor out and run again and I'll score another large....I'll do this three or four times and score a large each time and then I'll finish on around the fourth run.

Then the next time I run shroud I won't get any larges in part 4 so I'll finish out but, then the next time I run Shroud, I'll score a large in part 4 so I'll DDoor out and run again and score another large so I'll DDoor out and run again....odd things happen.

I'll also run Shroud a few times if I'm needing plat for scrolls or haste pots since it has a lot of chests and there is almost always a Shroud up.

[Beer_Dude]

honestly, I Think It's Just Silly. After You've Been Shrouding For A Bit, You'll Want To Make A Second Green Steel item And You'll Wish You Actually Completed All Those Previous Times To Get The Completions Needed For A Cleansing Essence.

Not Only That But You're Guaranteed A Large Ingredient Upon Completion.

So Really, There Are Two Very Good Reasons To Get The Completion Every Time.

(i Can Maybe See Why Someone Doesn't Want To Complete Because They Don't Have Their Regular Shard Of Power...i'm Not Too Convinced Though.)

+1

[Blank_Zero]

Doesn't abuse of /stuck get you suspended/banned?

That's not abuse.

Also, you can only use /stuck once a day. That's the workaround to prevent abuse.


Eric, I figured it was related to the drunken stuff. I wish I could come more often, but having no booze and guild raid trains on my Thursday/Friday kinda kills my timers :p

[Arkat]

Actually, if you take the ddoor and then see completion, you're screwed out of your chests. The portal to part 1 is down, remember? Better to recall and cancel for the chest than ddoor and be stuck without it.

That having been said, recalling is faster for everyone involved.

No, you're NOT screwed.

Typing "/stuck" will get you back in so you can get your chests.


:shakes fist at Blank_Zero:

[Arkat]

Doesn't abuse of /stuck get you suspended/banned?

You can only use /stuck once a day (seriously) so nobody's gonna be abusing that if you can only do it once a day.


:shakes fist at Blank_Zero again!:

[Pwesiela]

You can only use /stuck once a day (seriously) so nobody's gonna be abusing that if you can only do it once a day.


:shakes fist at Blank_Zero again!:

Correction: the command is monitored for abuse. That means it's to be used where your character gets stuck in terrain and needs to get out. That's why they added it. Recognizing that it could be used for abuse, the Dev's put a timer on it and flagged it for monitoring. Using it as a work around for a quest mechanic is an exploit, as far as I'm concerned.

The once per day is to help prevent abuse, not to show that using it only once a day is not abuse. There's a difference.

[Arkat]

Correction: the command is monitored for abuse. That means it's to be used where your character gets stuck in terrain and needs to get out. That's why they added it. Recognizing that it could be used for abuse, the Dev's put a timer on it and flagged it for monitoring. Using it as a work around for a quest mechanic is an exploit, as far as I'm concerned.

The once per day is to help prevent abuse, not to show that using it only once a day is not abuse. There's a difference.

No



Please explain how using /stuck to get back into Shroud because someone hit the altar prematurely is an "exploit." In this particluar case, this seems more of a useful "feature" than an "exploit."

EDIT: Please post evidence of /stuck monitoring. A Dev post will do.

[Blank_Zero]

No



Please explain how using /stuck to get back into Shroud because someone hit the altar prematurely is an "exploit."

EDIT: Please post evidence of /stuck monitoring. A Dev post will do.

Or reversing an early portal entry ala ToD part 3.

They really should move those shrines farther apart...

:lulz at Arkat:

[gloopygloop]

Issue A: the OP. The OPer is one of those people who seems to take great offense to the idea that someone doesn't want to complete a shroud run with them. The op is telling people they "must" complete shrouds or they are a drunken idiot.


Beer_dude, how do you get different text to show up for different readers? Because cdemeritt apparently read a completely different opening post than I did. What setting do you have to check in User_CP to make that happen?

[Dagolar]

Doesn't abuse of /stuck get you suspended/banned?

It'd have to be some serious abuse to have the devs care. As long as it's used for convenience (Tempest, the Shroud usage mentioned in this thread) it should be fine- at least, I have yet to hear anything to the contrary.



EDIT: Please post evidence of /stuck monitoring. A Dev post will do.

Type /stuck and read the prompt. Regardless of whether they DO monitor it or not, they CLAIM to monitor it.

I hope they monitor it, honestly; I was pleased when I saw the latest patch mentioning fixing a possible stuck spot in Market.. but, I just checked, the place where I've gotten stuck before is still there. So perhaps they don't monitor it.

[SisAmethyst]

Well, I have a personal aversion against DDoor in Shroud ... its already a while ago that this happened ... but I finished a Shroud and wanted to tell a guildy I am ready via chat ... unfortunately I typed the R and started running, straight into the DDoor at the second I typed enter. While this sound funny in the end, it totally screwed me as I got a completion without a chest. So yes, in my opinion this stupid habit should stop ;)

[gloopygloop]

You can only use /stuck once a day (seriously) so nobody's gonna be abusing that if you can only do it once a day.


:shakes fist at Blank_Zero again!:

I kind of consider /stuck when you're thrown from the top of Tempest's Spine to be abuse because the people who use it are too lazy/fragile to make the run back up to the top of the mountain again, but that's my personal opinion. I don't know of anyone who has gotten a DDO vacation for doing that.

[Arkat]

Type /stuck and read the prompt. Regardless of whether they DO monitor it or not, they CLAIM to monitor it.

Interesting. I've only done /stuck once ever. I guess I didn't read the whole message. Thanks!



I hope they monitor it, honestly; I was pleased when I saw the latest patch mentioning fixing a possible stuck spot in Market.. but, I just checked, the place where I've gotten stuck before is still there. So perhaps they don't monitor it.

If you can only do it once a day, I would think it would be a waste of time to monitor it.

[Pwesiela]

No



Please explain how using /stuck to get back into Shroud because someone hit the altar prematurely is an "exploit." In this particluar case, this seems more of a useful "feature" than an "exploit."

EDIT: Please post evidence of /stuck monitoring. A Dev post will do.

Let’s look at the purpose of the /stuck command:


Have you ever gotten stuck in a corner? Caught between a rock and a hard place? Hung up in a tree? In Module 9, you can use the /stuck command to get out of sticky situations! By typing /stuck, your character will be scooted out of the stuck spot to freedom! Don’t forget to submit a bug report if you happen to find a stuck spot so no one has to be stuck by that spot again!

So, we know that the reason we have /stuck is to get out of quest geometry that our character is unable to move in. Further, they added a once per day limit mostly in order to prevent “nefarious purposes”


I'll double check with them on this, but the last info I had was 1 per day... mostly as a safety net against nefarious purposes. But I will double check it to be sure it's not sooner than that.

In other words, using /stuck as a means to teleport yourself to a location that you are no longer in despite your ability to move around freely, is, again in my opinion, misusing the game mechanic. For the record, I place tempest spine in the same category here as I would for the Shroud. No, we do not have a dev commenting that this use is against guidelines. But claiming all is allowed that isn’t expressly disallowed is a sure way to get yourself into trouble.

As for command monitoring, no there is no forum post saying explicitly that they monitor the command. However, the command tells you straight up before activating that the command is monitored for abuse. You are on notice that the developers know it can be abused and that they did not put it in game to be abused. I hope they monitor it.


I hope they monitor it, honestly; I was pleased when I saw the latest patch mentioning fixing a possible stuck spot in Market.. but, I just checked, the place where I've gotten stuck before is still there. So perhaps they don't monitor it.

/stuck does not generate a report for QA to look at for future fixing, you still have to write a bug report.

[Arkat]

Let’s look at the purpose of the /stuck command:



So, we know that the reason we have /stuck is to get out of quest geometry that our character is unable to move in. Further, they added a once per day limit mostly in order to prevent “nefarious purposes”


Using /stuck so that you can at least loot your chests because someone prematurely hit the part 5 altar is not a "nefarious purpose."

Thank you, come again.

[Pwesiela]

Using /stuck so that you can at least loot your chests because someone prematurely hit the part 5 altar is not a "nefarious purpose."

Thank you, come again.

Using it to bypass a quest mechanic is.

Blame the premature activator, but don't whine when you can't get the chest you didn't want to loot anyway. Being put on timer sucks, sure, but have a second character flagged or suck it up for 3 days. I doubt the premature activator happens that often.

Regardless, it's better to just recall out to prevent the whole mess.

[Blank_Zero]

Using it to bypass a quest mechanic is.

Blame the premature activator, but don't whine when you can't get the chest you didn't want to loot anyway. Being put on timer sucks, sure, but have a second character flagged or suck it up for 3 days. I doubt the premature activator happens that often.

Regardless, it's better to just recall out to prevent the whole mess.

How is it bypassing a quest mechanic? You did complete the quest after all.

[Arkat]

Using it to bypass a quest mechanic is.

No, for the reason stated above. You're the one pointing out the "nefarious purposes" stuff above. Since the case I presented above isn't "nefarious," you MUST agree /stuck is not an exploit. Using your definition or argument (nefarious purposes), logic dictates that is so.




Regardless, it's better to just recall out to prevent the whole mess.

I agree with you here.

[Pwesiela]

No, for the reason stated above. You're the one pointing out the "nefarious purposes" stuff above. Since the case I presented above isn't "nefarious," you MUST agree /stuck is not an exploit. Using your definition or argument (nefarious purposes), logic dictates that is so.

/stuck was implemented to get you out of terrain prohibiting movement. Using it other wise is contrary to its purpose and therefore nefarious. Or, in other words, using it to get yourself back to a location that you are not supposed to be able to get to is nefarious. Using it to get to chests that you are legitimately locked out from is nefarious, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the "justness" of getting the loot you earned. It's a question of means and ends. You argue that the means (misuse of a game mechanic) is permitted to get the end (looting earned chests). I argue that the means (staying in and looting or getting out without the risk) is just as important as the end (looting the chest or getting to rerun). Logic doesn't dictate anything in this case. It rarely does, my Vulcan friend.

[Arkat]

Or, in other words, using it to get yourself back to a location that you are not supposed to be able to get to is nefarious.

Ah, I see the problem.

Your understanding of what the word "nefarious" means is different from mine.

Here's my definition:



ne·far·i·ous
   [ni-fair-ee-uhs]

–adjective
extremely wicked or villainous; iniquitous: a nefarious plot.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nefarious


Therefore, according to the scenario I'm arguing about, using the /stuck command to at least get your loot because of someone else's undesired actions is not an exploit. In this case (and Blank_Zero's case below), doing so is not extremely wicked or villainous, iniquitous, or a villainous plot.

[Blank_Zero]

/stuck was implemented to get you out of terrain prohibiting movement. Using it other wise is contrary to its purpose and therefore nefarious. Or, in other words, using it to get yourself back to a location that you are not supposed to be able to get to is nefarious. Using it to get to chests that you are legitimately locked out from is nefarious, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the "justness" of getting the loot you earned. It's a question of means and ends. You argue that the means (misuse of a game mechanic) is permitted to get the end (looting earned chests). I argue that the means (staying in and looting or getting out without the risk) is just as important as the end (looting the chest or getting to rerun). Logic doesn't dictate anything in this case. It rarely does, my Vulcan friend.

So if a griefer throws a DDoor on the chests and you hit it, using /stuck is still an exploit?

[Pwesiela]

Ah, I see the problem.

Your understanding of what the word "nefarious" means is different from mine.

Here's my definition:




Therefore, according to the scenario I'm arguing about, using the /stuck command to at least get your loot because of someone else's undesired actions is not an exploit. In this case (and Blank_Zero's case below), doing so is not extremely wicked or villainous, iniquitous, or a villainous plot.

I too considered the definition of nefarious. I continued to use the word because it was the term used by Tolero in the original post. Is it extremely wicked or villainous, iniquitous, or a plot? Probably not. But Tolero's point was that they limit the command to prevent misuse. Her use of the word nefarious is likely hyperbole.

Contending that it isn't "nefarious" doesn't defeat the point that it is a misuse of a game mechanic. A griefer's actions have nothing to do with your choice to misuse the system. You're no more responsible for what I do than I am for what you do.

[Arkat]

I too considered the definition of nefarious. I continued to use the word because it was the term used by Tolero in the original post. Is it extremely wicked or villainous, iniquitous, or a plot? Probably not. But Tolero's point was that they limit the command to prevent misuse. Her use of the word nefarious is likely hyperbole.

Contending that it isn't "nefarious" doesn't defeat the point that it is a misuse of a game mechanic. A griefer's actions have nothing to do with your choice to misuse the system. You're no more responsible for what I do than I am for what you do.

In either case (mine or Blank's) I would use /stuck. I wouldn't be banned for using an "exploit" either because my use was not "nefarious." In fact, the way I used it, it would be considered a "feature."

I win.

[Pwesiela]

In either case (mine or Blank's) I would use /stuck. I wouldn't be banned for using an "exploit" either because my use was not "nefarious." In fact, the way I used it, it would be considered a "feature."

I win.

0.o Now you're just sounding like a 10 year old.

The use is still a misuse. Terming it nefarious or innocent doesn't change the nature of the act (bypassing a quest mechanic).

As for whether or not you would be banned for using an "exploit" we'll likely never know because 1) discussing bannings is prohibited (and thus we'll never know for sure if it's happened) and 2) because the dev's probably don't pay too close attention to the command (though I should point out that non-enforcement also doesn't prove the action's prohibition).

[Arkat]

0.o Now you're just sounding like a 10 year old.

A win's a win.



The use is still a misuse. Terming it nefarious or innocent doesn't change the nature of the act (bypassing a quest mechanic).

You brought up the term "nefarious." You made your bed now do be a good sport and lie in it.



As for whether or not you would be banned for using an "exploit" we'll likely never know because 1) discussing bannings is prohibited (and thus we'll never know for sure if it's happened) and 2) because the dev's probably don't pay too close attention to the command (though I should point out that non-enforcement also doesn't prove the action's prohibition).

How convenient.

[Pwesiela]

A win's a win.

You brought up the term "nefarious." You made your bed now do be a good sport and lie in it.

How convenient.

Is this seriously your argument against the misuse of the mechanic? Seriously?

You're supposed to say "It's not a misuse of the mechanic because the dev's clearly intend us to use it in this way" or something similar. And then you're supposed to back that up with a dev post proving that using /stuck to move back to a place that's impossible to get to or just to avoid running a long way in the first place is somehow a contemplated purpose of the command.

At least try to make the argument, rather than just say "I can do it, so it's ok."

:rolleyes:

[Blank_Zero]

"I can do it, and no one to anyone's current knowledge has been banned for it, so it's ok."

fixed that for you.

[Pwesiela]

fixed that for you.

Using a negative to prove a positive gets you nowhere.

[Calebro]

I understand what you're trying to say Pwesiela, but I disagree with it.
Earlier, you said that "it's to be used where your character gets stuck in terrain and needs to get out."
But couldn't that strict definition be slightly altered to "it's to be used where your character gets stuck by terrain in a place that he doesn't want to be, when moments ago he was in a place that he does want to be?"
With this slightly altered description, the /stuck method to retrieve your chests in Shroud makes perfect sense.

You're making it sound black and white, but sometimes there are gray areas.

[Blank_Zero]

Using a negative to prove a positive gets you nowhere.

Until someone is banned for it, it cannot be fairly called an exploit.

[Beer_Dude]

Beer_dude, how do you get different text to show up for different readers? Because cdemeritt apparently read a completely different opening post than I did. What setting do you have to check in User_CP to make that happen?

Again this was a joke for the drunken raid crew. I think he took it way too serious.

[Pwesiela]

I understand what you're trying to say Pwesiela, but I disagree with it.
Earlier, you said that "it's to be used where your character gets stuck in terrain and needs to get out."
But couldn't that strict definition be slightly altered to "it's to be used where your character gets stuck by terrain in a place that he doesn't want to be, when moments ago he was in a place that he does want to be?"
With this slightly altered description, the /stuck method to retrieve your chests in Shroud makes perfect sense.

You're making it sound black and white, but sometimes there are gray areas.

Ah HAH! A good counter argument!

I would counter that your character IS in the place that they want to be, just not at the time you want to be IN it. By your change, we should be able to use /stuck to get out of ambushes or other quest mechanics where we are likely to face things we don't like, such as death, dismemberment, or loss of loot, and still get the benefits the mechanic was built to protect.

[Vellrad]

Honestly, I think it's just silly. After you've been shrouding for a bit, you'll want to make a second green steel item and you'll wish you actually completed all those previous times to get the Completions needed for a Cleansing Essence.

Not only that but you're GUARANTEED a Large ingredient upon completion.

So really, there are TWO very good reasons to get the Completion every time.

(I can MAYBE see why someone doesn't want to complete because they don't have their regular Shard of Power...I'm not too convinced though.)

No, if new player recalls out of shroud, he/she probably is doing another rigth away until tired/bored/farmed what he/shee needs (and completes), so after X days guy who is always finishing and guy who is recalling couple of times, and then finishes, will get the same number of completions, but the second will get more mats, be more bored, and will miss things from other quests he could do, if he/she wouldn't farm shroud.

[Zigana]

-Doing chrono on elite gives more named loot than normal (not 100% sure on this one, but my forum led understanding is it makes no difference)

This statement is in fact, correct. Earlier content it was not the case, but it was changed at some point. Here's a past thread with the info:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3746610&postcount=28

[Calebro]

Ah HAH! A good counter argument!

I would counter that your character IS in the place that they want to be, just not at the time you want to be IN it. By your change, we should be able to use /stuck to get out of ambushes or other quest mechanics where we are likely to face things we don't like, such as death, dismemberment, or loss of loot, and still get the benefits the mechanic was built to protect.

Nope. That's what the extremely long activation timer is for. You know, the one that can be interrupted and takes twice as long as any other activation in the game. That timer prevents you from using it in that sort of way, so your counterargument fails.

[Arkat]

You're supposed to say "It's not a misuse of the mechanic because the dev's clearly intend us to use it in this way" or something similar.

Obviously, you don't know what it means when a game designer calls something a "feature" instead of a bug or exploit.

[mullmachine]

You've never seen 11 people waiting at the barrier in part 5 scratching their arses waiting for 1 person to confirm whether he's out or not? Sure you can say 'it's just a minute', but why hold people's time hostage ever for that one minute?

If you REALLY REALLY MUST not finish, just /death out when Harry's at 5%

Cool i'll try that /death trick at 5% as primary healer and laugh when everyone dies so noone get's completion :D

[Beer_Dude]

Cool i'll try that /death trick at 5% as primary healer and laugh when everyone dies so noone get's completion :D

That's not likely to happen. We lost our only healer last week when Harry was at 40%. He still dropped like a portal and I think we only had 3 people die. So at 5% it's not too likely we would wipe and those that do die can hit the alter & res.

[Miahoo]

Ok 2 reasons. If you need a shard to craft and will be tring once you craft ok i get it. Other than that the only reason you should door out is if that's your last toon that can run another drunken raid run in the Shroud and you still want to do more quests with a bunch of drunk idiots.

Otherwise thrpISA no

Or if u're a newb and want to craft your 2nd tier gs asap.

[Dagolar]

/stuck was implemented to get you out of terrain prohibiting movement. Using it other wise is contrary to its purpose and therefore nefarious. Or, in other words, using it to get yourself back to a location that you are not supposed to be able to get to is nefarious. Using it to get to chests that you are legitimately locked out from is nefarious, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the "justness" of getting the loot you earned. It's a question of means and ends. You argue that the means (misuse of a game mechanic) is permitted to get the end (looting earned chests). I argue that the means (staying in and looting or getting out without the risk) is just as important as the end (looting the chest or getting to rerun). Logic doesn't dictate anything in this case. It rarely does, my Vulcan friend.

If you can push aside your irritation at the other replies you've faced for a moment, take this next element with a clear mind:
What you're arguing above- and in most of your replies- is that the mechanic cannot be used as a method of efficiency, and that it's an exploit to save yourself a bit of time. Correct?
Well, you've implied that such is a slippery slope moving to exploitation. However..
You're arguing against efficiency and method of acquiring. So, taking the next LOGICAL steps we would first have to:
Ban people from entering quests once they're completed: Thus, people running loot runs and inviting others to join once it is completed for the loot alone could not do so- after all, the people just entering didn't do anything to earn the loot- never mind that the loot was earned by someone who decided to use it to their own intent, it's still bordering as an exploit, correct?

Okay, good. But from that, we'd have to next ban people from entering a quest as it has started- period. Even if they're only entering late, they haven't EARNED the progression into the quest, correct?

And finally, we'd have to move to the last logical step: We'd have to ban high level players from running low level quests since, after all, they're using a method of efficiency to bypass limitations. Are all those people running elite chrono with level 20s in tow EARNING their loot? Are the level 20s even EARNING it?

These are actually ACCEPTABLE views to have.. they do follow logically, after all. However, they're brittle in their strictness and serve no purpose other than to be strict. After all, we all know there are easy and hard ways to do things: Hence xp farm quests, loot farm quests.

Not only is it unfeasible to even begin to try and 'balance' that out, it's unwise- that wiggle room in so many areas is one of the things that makes the game interesting, even to people who aren't exploiters or powergamers. Who wants a bland, straightforward, overly limited game- isn't the point of a game to, in some precise measure, escape limitations?

The people in question have, through whatever method, earned their chests or have had them earned for them. It may not be a guaranteed system of A provides B, but it's still valid and acceptable, and certainly not an exploit.

Now, the actual form of an exploit:
An exploit is using a feature or element to BYPASS a requirement. Can you get up the mountain again? Did you already get up the mountain and fall when there was no guarantee that you would? Okay, no exploit. Did you find a way to teleport through a wall and BYPASS an area? Okay, exploit.

Deciding whether something should be treated as an exploit can be tricky. But defining if something should be considered for such determination is not. Just like many rules of grammar or logic, it's about placing your element into the structure and seeing if it fits.

You may not like how this element works, and that's fine, reasonable, and worth arguing for if you feel strongly about it. But it isn't an exploit in the strictest sense- and, we are, after all, working in the strictest senses, are we not?- and addressing it will have more powerful consequences than leaving it in will.

So, I offer you this focus for your determined consideration instead:
Kobolds, Gnomes. We should be able to play as them.
Power to the movement!