TWF Khopesh Assassin Build

[Cryohazard]

Hey Forumites, Got a build concept up for some review.

I have a Lvl20 Ranger, armed with twin Lit II khopeshes, and I'm about ready to TR him into something better. I was initially aiming at the Exploiter. But then alot of my friends and guildies were raving about Rogue DPS from the assassin builds, and it piqued my interest. Alot of them recommend going the weapon finesse route and having twin Rad II rapiers. However, I didn't spend months farming the Shroud to make twin Lit IIs only to throw them away in the next life, so I wanted to see if I could mix TWF Khopesh and an Assassin Rogue.

Note: I'm fairly new to rogues, so I gladly welcome any constructive criticism.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Cryogex the TR
Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
(20 Rogue)
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 5

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23 23
Dexterity 15 17 22
Constitution 16 18 19
Intelligence 14 14 16
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 8 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 29
Bluff -1 28
Concentration 3 4
Diplomacy -1 7
Disable Device 6 26
Haggle 3 10
Heal -1 -1
Hide 6 21
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 7 26
Listen 3 7
Move Silently 6 27
Open Lock 6 29
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 6 26
Spot 3 22
Swim 3 6
Tumble 6 29
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Toughness II




Conceptually, this build would do everything an ordinary assassin would do, except with khopeshes. In order to successfully wield khopeshes, which aren't 'light finesse' weapons like rapiers, I think I'm forced to go with a STR-based rog.

Regarding HP, AC, saves, and Trap DCs: I'm a little concerned about the HP since this is a mele toon. I took the Barb Diletante to help, but 282 seems dangerously low to be fighting Harry or Horoth. I'm not completely sure what kind of AC I'll be looking at either. The saves aren't as impressive as my Dex/Wis Monk's but I think they'll be sufficient to dodge most of the stuff thrown at me. As far as Trap DCs go, 26 DC + 15 from items + rogue skill boost = 41+ search/disable, which sounds pretty good. (but then again, I'm new to rogues, so I could be wrong)

Again, this is just a concept build and nothing is set in stone, so any +5 Constructive Criticism is welcomed!

[brzytki]

I don't have much time so i'll keep it simple and brief.

Your stats look good, i don't think they need any adjustement. I assume u gonna stick with helf, so no info of other races from me, as i don't have much time and someone will evetually cover it.

About AC and saves: being a pure rogue (and STR based) will render your will save and AC at mid-end game completely useless so u'll have to find other source of damage mitigation, eg. radiance (guard), blur, displacement. GS items are invaluable in that department.

As for HP, starting with 16 CON, barb dilly and so many +hp enhancements will probably give u around 500 standing hp when fully geared at end game w/o much effort, which is really enough. I'd say 400hp is enough if u know how to play and it's certainly enough for Horoth, Harry, Sully or whatever boss. That said, the more hp u have the least likely you are to be put in the ground, obviously.

Trap DC's shouldn't be a problem for u, if u have max search/spot/dd item available. Starting with 14 INT helps too, but it isn't required. If u have the right gear and buffs u can get every trap in game at level and in epics even with 8 INT. Don't forget to stack some +5 thieves tools in ur bank before u TR, they really help early on (everyone loves +7 dd/ol at low levels :D).

Skills, investing in UMD is also a good idea to increase ur survivability. It won't be that beneficial in low-mid levels but later on u'll see that's a skill u gonna love. Throwing heals and razzing ur teammates will definitely come in handy. Not to mention if u want to solo some quests. I'd drop some points, if not all, from Jump, a couple more from Open Lock as u don't really have to max it and put them into UMD.

As for feats, drop WF:Slashing and take something meaningful, like PA for example. Defensive roll is another feat i'd throw away. It gives u a chance, based off ur reflex save, in percents to take half damage and avoid special effects of blows if ur hp is below 20% of total. It's not really a good feat unless u plan to run around at ~20% hp. Plus, DEX based toons benefit more from it. I'd take Skill Mastery instead, just for +1 to UMD alone.

Enhancements, u should drop Damage Boosts III and IV, some tiers in Faster Sneaking (unless u want to solo a lot), Rogue Dexterity III and maybe some more DEX enhancements. Take Haste Boosts instead, it's very big DPS boost. Having only one tier of Subtle Backstabbing will make u rogue who takes agro very quickly. One tier is not enough, get at least tier III, especially if u take Haste Boosts.

[suszterpatt]

Stats are OK, but I'd recommend a +2 INT tome at level 7 for 13 extra skill points and +1 Assassinate DC.

Skills: you'll want UMD. You can drop Spot. Also consider swapping Bluff for Diplo.

Feats: Swap the level of Opportunist and Crippling Strike. Drop Defensive Roll in favor of Skill Mastery. Drop Weapon Focus in favor of Power Attack: between Sneak Attack Accuracy and Backstabbing items, you won't have a problem hitting mobs. Even if you did, OTWF would be a +2 to attack instead of +1.

Enhancements: need a lot of work here.

- Drop Damage boost to II (for the assassin prereq). Put points into Haste boost instead. Much bigger DPS increase.
- If you're not going finesse, there's no real point to getting any Rogue Dexterity. AC won't matter, reflex and skills should be high enough anyway. Get the first tier to round up to an even score, but don't go beyond that.
- More points into Subtle Backstab. This is the one that both keeps you alive and lets you deal massive DPS. First rule of playing a rogue: never grab aggro.
- Consider Wrack Construct. Lets you sneak attack constructs, very handy. Also makes beating up the training dummy a lot faster. :)
- 1 point in Skill Boost never hurts.


Also, don't go assassin until you hit lvl 12. Assassin I and its prereqs are underwhelming. Max SA accuracy/training and Subtle Backstab, or go Mechanic. Then respec when you hit 12.

[Blank_Zero]

Str based assassins with khopesh are the best trash killers apart from necro focused arcanes.

Don't gimp it by going finesse.

[suszterpatt]

Str based assassins with khopesh are the best trash killers apart from necro focused arcanes.

Don't gimp it by going finesse.
There's a case to be made for INT based finesse builds who can reliably assassinate in endgame, though admittedly they're not as good against SA-immune trash.

[Blank_Zero]

There's a case to be made for INT based finesse builds who can reliably assassinate in endgame, though admittedly they're not as good against SA-immune trash.

You have to hit the mob though. It's far easier to buff Str into the 60+ range than it is to buff dex that far.

Maybe in Amrath normal you could get away with that. But not elite, and certainly not epics.

[suszterpatt]

You need nowhere near that sort of attack bonus to hit things though. My first life non-finesse rogue had 27 STR and could reliably hit epic trash (in Sands and VoN, at least).

[Blank_Zero]

You need nowhere near that sort of attack bonus to hit things though. My first life non-finesse rogue had 27 STR and could reliably hit epic trash (in Sands and VoN, at least).

Epic trash isn't what you should gear for, but the bosses. At least 4-5 that I can think of off the top of my head have an AC higher than 65.

[Cryohazard]

Your stats look good, i don't think they need any adjustement. I assume u gonna stick with helf, so no info of other races from me, as i don't have much time and someone will evetually cover it.

I toyed around with Human and Elf but they were both too squishy for my taste. Horc might have worked if I wanted to sacrifice some INT.


About AC and saves: being a pure rogue (and STR based) will render your will save and AC at mid-end game completely useless so u'll have to find other source of damage mitigation, eg. radiance (guard), blur, displacement. GS items are invaluable in that department.

So I'm not looking at Exploiter-esq AC then.


As for HP, starting with 16 CON, barb dilly and so many +hp enhancements will probably give u around 500 standing hp when fully geared at end game w/o much effort, which is really enough. I'd say 400hp is enough if u know how to play and it's certainly enough for Horoth, Harry, Sully or whatever boss. That said, the more hp u have the least likely you are to be put in the ground, obviously.

Thats what I thought. No tanking Horoth for this guy, but at least I won't get knocked out of Shroud pt4 early.


Trap DC's shouldn't be a problem for u, if u have max search/spot/dd item available. Starting with 14 INT helps too, but it isn't required. If u have the right gear and buffs u can get every trap in game at level and in epics even with 8 INT. Don't forget to stack some +5 thieves tools in ur bank before u TR, they really help early on (everyone loves +7 dd/ol at low levels :D).

I mainly boosted my INT to help with the Assassinate DC. (which with my math, I'm getting around 35-36 DC, good/bad?) I'm reluctant to drop INT because I love a decent instakill DC.


Skills, investing in UMD is also a good idea to increase ur survivability. It won't be that beneficial in low-mid levels but later on u'll see that's a skill u gonna love. Throwing heals and razzing ur teammates will definitely come in handy. Not to mention if u want to solo some quests. I'd drop some points, if not all, from Jump, a couple more from Open Lock as u don't really have to max it and put them into UMD.

Yeah, I somehow forgot to incorporate UMD into the build. It would be nice to wand heal for a change. I've heard of rogues having high UMD for heal and raise scrolls. Whats the Chance of Success I should be aiming for?


As for feats, drop WF:Slashing and take something meaningful, like PA for example. Defensive roll is another feat i'd throw away. It gives u a chance, based off ur reflex save, in percents to take half damage and avoid special effects of blows if ur hp is below 20% of total. It's not really a good feat unless u plan to run around at ~20% hp. Plus, DEX based toons benefit more from it. I'd take Skill Mastery instead, just for +1 to UMD alone.

I waffled about PA, because I wasn't sure how good this toon's to-hit would be. I usually don't take it if I know my toons are going to have trouble hitting stuff. Now that you reminded me about UMD, I probably will go for the skill mastery instead of Def Roll. It did look rather bland.


Enhancements, u should drop Damage Boosts III and IV, some tiers in Faster Sneaking (unless u want to solo a lot), Rogue Dexterity III and maybe some more DEX enhancements. Take Haste Boosts instead, it's very big DPS boost. Having only one tier of Subtle Backstabbing will make u rogue who takes agro very quickly. One tier is not enough, get at least tier III, especially if u take Haste Boosts.

One of my guildies mentioned that subtle backstabbing on his Rogue really didn't help much because he got 'so much' aggro from the sneak attack, so I waved those enhancements off. But from the replies here, it looks like we were wrong. And yeah, come to think of it, the haste boost would be more effective than the damage boost. Will have the build enhancements updated, shortly

[Cryohazard]

Build Updated. Thanks for the input!

Changes: +2 INT tome at Lvl 7 for extra Skill Pts
Tweaked skill points to focus on Diplomacy and UMD
Swapped WF: Slashing for Power Attack
Swapped Rogue Defensive Roll for Skill Boost
Enhancements overhauled.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Cryogex
Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
(20 Rogue)
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 17
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 15 21
Constitution 16 19
Intelligence 14 18
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 31
Bluff -1 15
Concentration 3 5
Diplomacy -1 28
Disable Device 6 30
Haggle 3 10
Heal -1 0
Hide 6 21
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 5 24
Listen 3 5
Move Silently 5 24
Open Lock 5 26
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 5
Search 6 30
Spot 3 20
Swim 3 7
Tumble 6 29
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Improved Search I
Enhancement: Improved Search II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Toughness II




...Working on gear...

[brzytki]

Thats what I thought. No tanking Horoth for this guy, but at least I won't get knocked out of Shroud pt4 early.

There is absolutely no point in tanking anything on pure rogue since u gonna lose majority of ur damage. 300+ hp on (imp) evasion toon is enough for Shroud and 500+ standing hp for epics where some disintegrates hit for 400-420 is plenty as well.


I mainly boosted my INT to help with the Assassinate DC. (which with my math, I'm getting around 35-36 DC, good/bad?) I'm reluctant to drop INT because I love a decent instakill DC.

37 DC at cap w/ +6 INT item, +1 (shrine), +1 (exceptional) = 39 From what i've found out 39/40 seems to be a threshold in Amrath to reliably land assassination. It's perfectly fine for instakilling casters in epics as well, melees much less reliably.


Yeah, I somehow forgot to incorporate UMD into the build. It would be nice to wand heal for a change. I've heard of rogues having high UMD for heal and raise scrolls. Whats the Chance of Success I should be aiming for?

Raise Dead scrolls have UMD of 36, Heal scrolls 40, so u'll need 39 to no-fail the latter as u always roll at least a 1 on d20.


I waffled about PA, because I wasn't sure how good this toon's to-hit would be. I usually don't take it if I know my toons are going to have trouble hitting stuff.

To-hit shouldn't be a problem if u have some DP clickies, destruction on your DT armor or Radiance weapon/guard.

Updated build looks good.