Not Another "Nerf the Casters" Thread

[mindlessdrone1991]

This thread is not intended to call for nerfs to insta-death spells, nor is it meant to suggest that such spells do not require re-balancing. I have no experience with insta-death spells in epics, and I do not have a wizard of sufficiently high level to use wail of the banshee or circle of death (the two spells that seem to be the big "issues" for some players). Therefore I cannot, in good conscience, side with either the pro-nerf or anti-nerf crowd.

What this thread IS about, is to point out that I don't think either camp in this ongoing forum battle is really being completely honest.

Take this post from SirGog, a well-known power-gamer here on the forums:


I don't think that would be enough, the main issue isn't that people are killing 30 mobs with one cast. It's more that you are rounding up 10 mobs, then killing 8 with one Wail, then rounding up another 8 or so, then killing 6 with Circle, then by the time you've rounded up a few more, Wail is off cooldown again. You've killed 14 mobs in 30 seconds, with little risk as DDO mobs are terrible at doing anything to harm moving players.

Back pre-U9, a whole party - let's say 3 geared barbarians, a bard, an arcane and a divine working together would kill about that number of epic mobs at most in 30 seconds. Now, each Wizard (and some clerics and favored souls) can do it themselves.

Bringing 4 casters to a 6-person Epic is like taking 24 players in. It's too easy to be fun. Even a mediocre arcane (say 39 DC Wail) outperforms 2-3 top-notch melees.

From this description, I am thoroughly unconvinced that the spells themselves are the issue. A meta-gaming strategy that is carried out nearly flawlessly will trivialize anything. It seems to me that the problem lies with the monster AI.

Obviously, a nerf bat is usually easy to swing compared to increasing AI capabilities, so why not use a cheesy fix like dungeon alert? If players are kiting dozens of mobs together to get the most out of each wail/circle, why not implement a slow effect, similar to dungeon alert, but specific to epics? Have it limit run speed and jumping height. Test it thoroughly to insure it does not hamper players who are fighting each encounter as they come to it; this should only affect a particular meta-gaming strategy that brings on the feeling of "god-mode."

This particular suggestion is not fully fleshed-out. I just think there might be a middle-ground between the "nerf insta-death" and "leave it be" crowds.

As for the "leave it be"/anti-nerf crowd, please stop using the argument that "casters aren't OP until raid leaders limit their groups to 2 melee," or the false dichotomy that the only two options are for casters to function at their current level of effectiveness, or be reduced to buff-bots.

TL;DR... I think combating meta-gaming tactics would make more people happier with regard to the perceived effectiveness of insta-death spells than either nerfing such spells or doing nothing.

[Kalari]

I have used that argument I think it is valid that people shouldnt assume all casters are going to be dungeon stompers or epic kings and queens. I also think its a very fair assessment that nerfing casters ability to kill and nuke would turn them back to the way they were played pre update 9. I play a caster I played one pre U9 which was a no fun buff bot dance atron to now which has more roles and functions. I never said casters were not over powered I just think there is a big shift between casters who do know how to cast and build for it versus all who play casters.

we the players have this mentality that if it is easy, works for, or happens for us that its the same way for every one who plays the game. This is not new and I have caught myself up in that logic when I complain about easy buttons. It has become hard at times to see from a point of view outside my own.

But when you got people asking to nerf casters because of the ease they are finding with the game without putting thought to others who do not have the luxury of Tr'ing green steel and other gear who may have been the buff/ fish crit, or stand back type caster pre U9 and now are getting to kill and lumping them into that view point thats where it becomes unfair.

It's real easy to cry for nerf and balance when it affects ya game play without thinking of how it would hurt others or even caring which I saw a lot in that other thread including the person you quoted. Im not saying its wrong for him to feel the game is becoming too easy with this Im saying he has ways to limit himself while others have to work to get better.

[Fejj]

The underlieing problem is "fun for melee". Not nerf the caster
It is not fun to run up to a mob,and have it fingered. Over and Over and Over.
If it's not fingered, its being one shotted by a 4sp Frost Lance, Lightning bolt or other SLA.
Or a whole mass of mobs is eliminated with Otilukes, Chain Lightning, Wail, CoD, ect......

Its not fun to see a caster solo an entire room killing dozens of mobs, while you bash away on one.

Scroll farming .... well that is a failed idea which encourages solo play and should be looked at separately. But as it stands is very very hard more a melee


The spell pass did a couple of things
Reduced Casting Cost
Free Spells with free metas
Lower HP on Mobs
Removed Epic Ward (necro spells FTW)
Free enlarge on all ray spells
Goloms are no longer immune to spells

Where all of them combined lead to spell point conservation being a joke. They also made playing a caster much much more fun.

I propose allowing melee to be fun again. Standing there with auto attack on doesn't seem fun to me. Lets find ways for melee play to be more active, more fun and have melee characters be more useful in quests.

Some Ideas of mine:

Mobs should agro healers and casters first. Always. Just like we do. Mob that shaman before he casts!!!.

Mobs should get a chance to dodge ray spells based on distance cast

Mobs should avoid and get out of AOE spells

Necro spells should have a greater SP cost

"Echos of Power" feat should auto remove at lvl 12. No SLA spamming for you.

Vorpals should vorpal again on all trash. Who cares, its trash.

Lower the DC's on melee abilities like trip and stun.

Bring back more active AI, like casting mass prot, Mass DW, haste, spell resistance ... anything other than blanket immunities.

-----

But really the bigger problem is balancing noob casters and TR casters. If you make the game fun for a newb caster, then obviously a TR caster with all the gear and knoledge will still own content. Conversely, if you balance towards the TR, new casters will suffer.

Its a tricky thing to "balance" the power of casters, I hope they get it right.

@ the OP - thank you for not calling for generic nerfs, and trying to have a discussion. In that respect, I responded. In the past I have been confrontattional twards the nerf this and that thread, now I am trying to stay objective.

[kitsune_ko]

Self-limiting never works out well. When handed something that makes us better, we will use it. And use it, and use it until we can find something even better yet, then use that instead.

Unfortunately we all generally revert to self-indulgant behaviors when allowed. Much like a kid with access to the cookie jar unsupervised. Sure, they know they should/can get away with only have one, but always end up stuffing as much into themselves as possible in the shortest time possible. Even knowing that there will be consequences for this behavior later.

As a general rule; limits need to be imposed becasue people are terrible at self-limiting behaviors.

[mindlessdrone1991]

The underlieing problem is "fun for melee". Not nerf the caster


This is an issue that might be really hard to fix, given the current state of the game... or the state in which the game has been since maybe Shroud was released: the most effective melee combatant is one who maximizes DPS and relies on high hp to survive.

The reason this becomes problematic is that full-****** dps is boring (at least to me). My favorite character to play, more fun even than my level 20 sorcerer, is my gimpy finesse dark monk. Why? Active combat. If I was playing that character, it wouldn't matter if the rest of the group was each killing a dozen monsters in the time it took me to kill one; it is just fun to use all those monk moves.

Motionless, hold-down-right-click combat will never be fun to me. So I haven't really been able to understand the "fun for melee" argument regarding the power of spell casters.

I will say that I am surprised by the comment about nuking and SLAs being overpowered. I've messed around in epics a bit, and found monster HP to be silly-high... too high to kill efficiently via nuking. And the SLAs have really long cool downs, so I don't see those as very time-efficient means of killing things; it just means that a caster can shoot a few spells on each trash encounter and still have mana to blast when needed (if they're in a group), or they can win out through attrition (if they are soloing).

[danotmano1998]

Some Ideas of mine:

Mobs should agro healers and casters first. Always. Just like we do. Mob that shaman before he casts!!!.

Mobs should <snipped> get out of AOE spells.

Bring back more active AI, like casting mass prot, Mass DW, haste, spell resistance ... anything other than blanket immunities.


^^ These!

[Qhualor]

Since this whole argument with nerfs and easy buttons, I've always said we need balance. What I mean is, mobs need a brain. They tried that with hirelings but its still a work in progress. They are worse than ever. I play only melee toons and I'm not having that much fun swinging at air. I tried playing a cleric and I found fighting on the front line much more fun. I understand what the casters are saying. For once, power has shifted and dps isn't needed as much. I did a TOD last night with 5 fvs and a bard. Smooth as butter, but barely needed to swing because the fvs pretty much took care of the mobs. There may or may not be some fixes needed with spells, I think the problem is actually the quests themselves and the enemies there. They have no real strategy and just attack who they see first and they will run in circles following you until something happens like killing them or someone comes up and beats on it. THIS is what needs fixing. Make it so all classes have a purpose because I don't like breezing my way thru a quest.

[Silverwren]

Its not fun to see a caster solo an entire room killing dozens of mobs, while you bash away on one. Sure it is....if YOU'RE the caster. :D

I propose allowing melee to be fun again. Standing there with auto attack on doesn't seem fun to me. Lets find ways for melee play to be more active, more fun and have melee characters be more useful in quests. It is already fun, for me at least. It's not just about standing there whacking away at everything. I put thought into my fighting, such as: Where's the caster? What weapon works best on this creature? Should I use my STR boost or not? Is my healer getting mobbed?

Mobs should agro healers and casters first. Always. Just like we do. Mob that shaman before he casts!!!. Already happens. As soon as I let loose a Chain Lightning whatever survived is on me. That's when I'm especially glad to have my melee buddies around because my wizzie isn't very good at close quarter combat.

Mobs should get a chance to dodge ray spells based on distance cast This already happens too. Moving targets are much harder to hit with ray spells from a distance.

Mobs should avoid and get out of AOE spells I agree with this. Creatures that are getting burned by a firewall that's active for 30 seconds or more should move out of it, even if they have sawdust for brains.

Necro spells should have a greater SP cost No comment, I don't play Necro.

"Echos of Power" feat should auto remove at lvl 12. No SLA spamming for you. I disagree. No feats should ever be auto removed. I worked hard for it and I'll be the one to decide when it goes away or gets replaced, thank you.

Vorpals should vorpal again on all trash. Who cares, its trash. There's a vorpal spell? :eek:

Lower the DC's on melee abilities like trip and stun. Nah, works fine already on my fighter.

Bring back more active AI, like casting mass prot, Mass DW, haste, spell resistance ... anything other than blanket immunities. What do you mean, "bring back"? Are you implying that mobs had better AI at some point in the not so distant past?

Its a tricky thing to "balance" the power of casters, I hope they get it right. Bottom line, IMHO I don't think anything needs to be balanced as far as casters go. The balance needs to be in the difference between classes. Melee don't have insta-kill abilities (for the most part, vorpal and banishment not withstanding) or AOE, but can (or at least, should be able to) stand inside a mob of bad guys and go toe to toe due to their increased AC and fortification and etc etc. Conversely a caster can't (for the most part) stand inside a mob and last for very long, but they can do a tremendous amount of damage to a large amount of bad guys. I think if we all build and play our toons appropriately this balance happens automatically and everyone has a good time.

Just my thoughts. See comments in red above.

[Kabaon]

The underlieing problem is "fun for melee". Not nerf the caster
It is not fun to run up to a mob,and have it fingered. Over and Over and Over.
If it's not fingered, its being one shotted by a 4sp Frost Lance, Lightning bolt or other SLA.
Or a whole mass of mobs is eliminated with Otilukes, Chain Lightning, Wail, CoD, ect......

Its not fun to see a caster solo an entire room killing dozens of mobs, while you bash away on one.

Scroll farming .... well that is a failed idea which encourages solo play and should be looked at separately. But as it stands is very very hard more a melee


The spell pass did a couple of things
Reduced Casting Cost
Free Spells with free metas
Lower HP on Mobs
Removed Epic Ward (necro spells FTW)
Free enlarge on all ray spells
Goloms are no longer immune to spells

Where all of them combined lead to spell point conservation being a joke. They also made playing a caster much much more fun.

I propose allowing melee to be fun again. Standing there with auto attack on doesn't seem fun to me. Lets find ways for melee play to be more active, more fun and have melee characters be more useful in quests.

Some Ideas of mine:

Mobs should agro healers and casters first. Always. Just like we do. Mob that shaman before he casts!!!.

Mobs should get a chance to dodge ray spells based on distance cast

Mobs should avoid and get out of AOE spells

Necro spells should have a greater SP cost

"Echos of Power" feat should auto remove at lvl 12. No SLA spamming for you.

Vorpals should vorpal again on all trash. Who cares, its trash.

Lower the DC's on melee abilities like trip and stun.

Bring back more active AI, like casting mass prot, Mass DW, haste, spell resistance ... anything other than blanket immunities.

-----

But really the bigger problem is balancing noob casters and TR casters. If you make the game fun for a newb caster, then obviously a TR caster with all the gear and knoledge will still own content. Conversely, if you balance towards the TR, new casters will suffer.

Its a tricky thing to "balance" the power of casters, I hope they get it right.

@ the OP - thank you for not calling for generic nerfs, and trying to have a discussion. In that respect, I responded. In the past I have been confrontattional twards the nerf this and that thread, now I am trying to stay objective.

I agree that some of these changes are ok, but a few I have issues with would be 1. Mobs move out or avoid AoE spells. 2. Necro spells should cost more.

1. AoE spells would be pointless if this actually happened. Why would anyone cast anything AoE if the mob takes 1 or 2 ticks of damage.

2. Necro spells are THE only spells in the game that can be fully ignored if you have Death Ward, and if your fighting undead (Except Undeath to Death). There ARE mobs that cast DW, Mass. And you think COST is the issue? If necro spells get raised all spells should (And I use energy drain, Necrotic ray, Death aura, WotB, CoD, and FoD far more than any other spells)