So are Casters now more un balanced than WOPS?

[Brannigan]

Well they nerfed WOPS - (and they were rare) in the name of 'balancing combat'.

Seems to me that certain caster spells / changes have now took combat out of balance again on a far greater scale than the WOP issue ever was.

Do you think Turbine wil address the issue?

[TheDjinnFor]

Eventually.

[Darkrok]

The cries for nerfs become tiresome after awhile. This is why we can't have nice things. ;)

[muffinlad]

The cries for nerfs become tiresome after awhile. This is why we can't have nice things. ;)

This. x10.

muffinstuffin

[Battery]

the classes are balanced, some are just more balanced than others :)

[Cyr]

The cries for nerfs become tiresome after awhile. This is why we can't have nice things. ;)

Actually the reason we can't have nice things is because of the yo-yo balancing act that we are priviliged to enjoy every other update. If things got changed gradually in game we would have both less cries of nerf this and our nice things sticking around longer then a couple of updates.

[Dawnsfire]

The cries for nerfs become tiresome after awhile. This is why we can't have nice things. ;)

Yaulthoon is that you?

[jillie]

Another day, another nerf request.

I can only assume that casters aren't allowed to have nice things, and that melees feel that they're the only ones entitled. At least, there seem to be a lot of melees having trouble sitting down and enjoying their new role as meat shields for their former buffbots. Maybe they're hurting somewhere down south ...

[karnokvolrath]

nerf it all!!!!


To many threads make my head hurt....i figured id round it all up for you into one simple post that everyone can just aviod. Feel free to add anything i missed :P


Once i see raids taking only two melees ill cry nerf. :P Till then....Matt Foly Says...

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ryancookpimp00/chris-farley-shirt.png

[Kamo]

Let the nerf bat swing where it will, casters are better!

[Yuesu]

Well they nerfed WOPS - (and they were rare) in the name of 'balancing combat'.

Seems to me that certain caster spells / changes have now took combat out of balance again on a far greater scale than the WOP issue ever was.

Do you think Turbine wil address the issue?

What spells do you feel are “out of balance” compared to WOP’s?

Please be specific. List the spells and how they are not balanced to the way WOP used to be. Also, if you would be so kind as to explain how you feel Turbine should bring them into balance.

I would like to be on your side on this topic but without more information I just do not feel right supporting this nerf request.

Thanks

[Emili]

Another day, another nerf request.

I can only assume that casters aren't allowed to have nice things, and that melees feel that they're the only ones entitled. At least, there seem to be a lot of melees having trouble sitting down and enjoying their new role as meat shields for their former buffbots. Maybe they're hurting somewhere down south ...

You may make a meat shield out of any class... and really the only place you may want a meat shield are on certain bosses you have to keep around because you're not allowed to kill it so quickly or your group just does not have the power to kill it quickly.

[sirgog]

Well they nerfed WOPS - (and they were rare) in the name of 'balancing combat'.

Seems to me that certain caster spells / changes have now took combat out of balance again on a far greater scale than the WOP issue ever was.

Do you think Turbine wil address the issue?

They nerfed WoPs because they made other approaches to combat useless. Nerfing WoPs made melee DPS viable.

I got screwed by that nerf, having a character pretty much wrecked by it. Doesn't change that it made the game better.

[Dirac]

Seems to me that certain caster spells / changes have now took combat out of balance again on a far greater scale than the WOP issue ever was.

Oh my goodness. Not even close. Not it the same ballpark, or on the same planet.

[barryman5000]

Instead of nerfing caster spells . . . how about making melee tactics a good bit better than they are?

Seems that would make melee more than a left-clicking machine. Stunning your own baddies and then wailing on them with gs should do some pretty decent dps . . . at least 50% more :)

[Brannigan]

Another day, another nerf request.

I can only assume that casters aren't allowed to have nice things, and that melees feel that they're the only ones entitled. At least, there seem to be a lot of melees having trouble sitting down and enjoying their new role as meat shields for their former buffbots. Maybe they're hurting somewhere down south ...

Not a request but a question of if you think Turbine will address this issue as they did the WOP one for example.

The above anology could have been applied to WOPS for example and yet they were rare, whereas casters are prolific.

[Brannigan]

What spells do you feel are “out of balance” compared to WOP’s?

Please be specific. List the spells and how they are not balanced to the way WOP used to be. Also, if you would be so kind as to explain how you feel Turbine should bring them into balance.

I would like to be on your side on this topic but without more information I just do not feel right supporting this nerf request.

Thanks

Hi,

It's not a nerf request more than a question of considering all the many threads on the topic (which list the specific spells people are complaining about) will Turbine adress the issue.

Yes WOPS were unbalancing however they were quite rare, not many players had them and yet Turbine chose to nerf them in the name of balance.

Casters are not rare and have access to certain spells that mean they can basically one click destroy one or several mobs repeatedly before a melee for example can even close on the mob - I'm not saying that itself is wrong but the frequency they can repeat this action is what makes it unbalancing and un enoyable for melee types - which is the basics of the argument for change across the threads I have read.

Therefore will Turbine change it or nor because it would upset a wider range of players (casters) than those melee types that had WOPS for example.

[Chai]

Well they nerfed WOPS - (and they were rare) in the name of 'balancing combat'.

Seems to me that certain caster spells / changes have now took combat out of balance again on a far greater scale than the WOP issue ever was.

Do you think Turbine wil address the issue?

No.

WoP was a MUCH larger issue and it would have been WORSE in epics. We had 8 str 40 dex rangers running around killing stuff faster than 60 str barbarians. Damage per hit builds could not hold a candle to rate of attack builds. The big bosses during that time were Harry and Sully. WoP was crushing most else.

In epics on a CR 38 mob Imagine a weapon whose prefix does 19 points of damage per hit, and the suffix does ~67 points per crit. This is insane, and makes holy burst greater bane weapons look like masterwork.

[Fejj]

Casters are not rare and have access to certain spells that mean they can basically one click destroy one or several mobs repeatedly before a melee for example can even close on the mob - I'm not saying that itself is wrong but the frequency they can repeat this action is what makes it unbalancing and un enoyable for melee types - which is the basics of the argument for change across the threads I have read.

Start your own group, and say no caster. Or say no necro spells please. Or say no Enchantment spells please.

Or grab a sorc hierling to keep you hasted so you can beat down mobs.

This game gives YOU THE POWER to play as you like. Please do not ask for nerfs to a whole class of players finally enjoying the game again.

Thank you

[BrightAsh]

All i can think of is:

How does everyone know every abbreviation people come up with? Is there a abbreviation dictionary somewhere where i can find what everything means? What the *censored invective* does WoP stand for? I figured out DoTs, AOE, S&B, PSA, every prestige enhancement or quest/raid abbreviation...... now for WoP? Some deductive reasoning leads me to think it is something melee, but what sort?

feeewwww, feel so much better now i've got this of my chest.

[Franke]

Wounding of Puncturing.

[Brannigan]

No.

WoP was a MUCH larger issue and it would have been WORSE in epics. We had 8 str 40 dex rangers running around killing stuff faster than 60 str barbarians. Damage per hit builds could not hold a candle to rate of attack builds. The big bosses during that time were Harry and Sully. WoP was crushing most else.

In epics on a CR 38 mob Imagine a weapon whose prefix does 19 points of damage per hit, and the suffix does ~67 points per crit. This is insane, and makes holy burst greater bane weapons look like masterwork.

I dont agree with your statement that it is a larger issue due to the rarity of WOPS.

Certains casters at present can virtually solo many epics, your average melee is unable to do that, and certainly not at the speed a caster can.

[Fejj]

All i can think of is:

How does everyone know every abbreviation people come up with? Is there a abbreviation dictionary somewhere where i can find what everything means? What the *censored invective* does WoP stand for? I figured out DoTs, AOE, S&B, PSA, every prestige enhancement or quest/raid abbreviation...... now for WoP? Some deductive reasoning leads me to think it is something melee, but what sort?

feeewwww, feel so much better now i've got this of my chest.

Wounding of Puncturing

Used to kill a mob when it reached zero con

Think duel wielding dex based rangers just destroying content Pre TWF nerf

[Brannigan]

Start your own group, and say no caster. Or say no necro spells please. Or say no Enchantment spells please.

Or grab a sorc hierling to keep you hasted so you can beat down mobs.

This game gives YOU THE POWER to play as you like. Please do not ask for nerfs to a whole class of players finally enjoying the game again.

Thank you

I would like to think all players can enjoy the game, but if something is radically altering that enjoyment for other players it should be looked at.

This thread is not about really calling for a nerf, but more that considering that Turbine nerfed WOPS (which were rare) due to peer pressure from forum posts etc, considering the many 'balance certain caster spells' threads do you think Turbine will bow to peer pressure again or not ? - due to the many more caster player types than there were melees with WOPS when they changed that.

i.e They will or they wont because of the greater level of potential 'rage / quits' from caster players as opposed to upsetting no where near as many melee types that had WOPS when that came in.

Hope that makes sense :}

[BrightAsh]

Wounding of Puncturing

Used to kill a mob when it reached zero con

Think duel wielding dex based rangers just destroying content Pre TWF nerf

aaah thanks!

[Fejj]

I would like to think all players can enjoy the game, but if something is radically altering that enjoyment for other players it should be looked at.

This thread is not about really calling for a nerf, but more that considering that Turbine nerfed WOPS (which were rare) due to peer pressure from forum posts etc, considering the many 'balance certain caster spells' threads do you think Turbine will bow to peer pressure again or not - due the many more caster player types than there were melees with WOPS when they changed that.

Hope that makes sense :}

Yes - I think Turbine will bow down to the noisey 1% of forum cry babies worried that their kill count is less, now that casters are no longer buff bots. (not you - others)

Your thread is all about nerffing casters. Don't be mistaken. Your not directly asking for a nerf, however you are implying that casters are as OP as WoP and Turbine should consider nerfing them. (Little difference to me)

I would expect much more forum rage if they ever nerfed casters back to buffbots than just leaving it alone.

[Eme]

i think you have a good point Bran, it certainly reminds me of the days wops ran around killing everything like crazy ..( ahh i miss my repeater wop bowbarian)...

I think the change to helpless has been good and bad at the same time, and IMO doesnt work properly yet..

The good points has been casters doing more damage spells and less of one type of ( hold) spells,, which is good..
its also narrowed the melee gap from critrange/multiplier weapons a bit, which is good as well,,,
but hten the removal of epicward on lots of epic mobs to make up for it has brought with it some serious split between DCs available to casters and insta kill spells vs damage for melees..

the lowering of HPs on mobs was an attempt to try to rectify this, but again IMHO it isnt enough still, they still need 'slightly' less HP, BUT to make up for it Mobs need to play smarter and more dangerously ( to us), requiring better tactics from us ( like tempest spine used to need when cap was 10 and noone had gear).
BUt when a caster can run an epic in 1/100th the time a well geared/played melee can something is wrong.. its not the caster spells, its what melee cant do, and what the mob 'cant' do.

You see it far too often , in every quest, casters can get somewhere/do something, and the mob will just stand there, mobs need to learn to climb ladders,notice their mob-mate 10ft away is in a fight,spot someone running up to them before they actually get hit 5 times, move out of area spells and do other things to rectify bad situations they might be in.
I think its the biggest issue with the game, and thats the terrible terrible terrible AI of mobs, and everything the devs are doing doesnt try to rectify this real issue, so they try to balance the player classes out around it.

[Forzah]

Start your own group, and say no caster. Or say no necro spells please. Or say no Enchantment spells please.


Comments like these are really tiresome, and completely useless. There is a balance problem, and you tell people to solve it by ignoring the things that cause the problem? That's not really a solution. I think there are plenty of ways to solve the problem that makes the game more fun for any class. For instance, making damage spells viable in epic and amrath, and reducing mob hp a bit more (while making mobs do a lot more damage).

[justagame]

A few things here:

Without WoPs, melee damage was still very powerful. It wasn't casters complaining, it was other melees. WoPs were an impediment to expanding the game and making quests harder, because they trivialized most mobs no matter how tough they were. There was no opportunity cost -- no limited actions or resources spent, no save or chance of failure, etc.

Also, the I couldn't think of a worse justification for a nerf than "many threads are complaining about it." For one, it's the same people in many of these threads (I'm not disregarding those people's opinions, just the idea that many threads = many people).

But more importantly, making radical game changes based on the whims of the forums is seldom wise. Consider that when U9 first came out, many many more people were complaining that casters had actually been nerfed, and were promising to quit over just how bad and un-fun their casters would be in U9. Those complains were far more numerous, and arguably more "spirited". What if, in response to that, Turbine had made them even MORE powerful, or nerfed melees to balance?

Lastly, and this goes back to the WoP comparison -- without WoPs, melees were still the go-to guys in raids. They were still powerful, viable, whatever term you want to use. Pre-U9, casters were very potent in non-epic content, but in endgame content, it was very limited. In fact, endgame content pre-U9 was UNBELIEVABLY BORING. There was one way -- a mass melee beatdown on mass held creatures, with high crit weapons. Little else mattered. IF you were a cleric with high DC's? DIdn't matter, it was heal, and when not healing, hope you had a dreamspitter handy to help with the autocrit beatdown (not that they needed the help).

Now, there is more than one way to kill in epics. Are some ways faster? Sure. But pre-U9, conventional wisdom held that if you brought more than 2 casters or 2 divines into a shroud, you wouldn't be able to complete. For all the complaints, for all of the changes, we wouldn't even THINK of looking at melees that way.

[Fejj]

Comments like these are really tiresome, and completely useless.

And threads about nerfing casters are new, fresh, and usefull

[Truga]

Once i see raids taking only two melees ill cry nerf.

This.

[Eme]

And threads about nerfing casters are new, fresh, and usefull

helps if you read the thread rather than kneejerk react to it, hes not asking for a nerf, he even said he wasnt, rather a discussion about how things work now, how they might work inthe future and comparing to things in the past

[sirgog]

Melees with WoPs soloed Elite Stealer of Souls but couldn't beat Sor'jek.

Casters solo Epic VON3, something meant to be an equal endgame challenge. They can kill the Marut.

[grgurius]

Yes - I think Turbine will bow down to the noisey 1% of forum cry babies worried that their kill count is less, now that casters are no longer buff bots. (not you - others)

Your thread is all about nerffing casters. Don't be mistaken. Your not directly asking for a nerf, however you are implying that casters are as OP as WoP and Turbine should consider nerfing them. (Little difference to me)

I would expect much more forum rage if they ever nerfed casters back to buffbots than just leaving it alone.

Interesting, in recent threads, kill counts are usually mentioned by people against changes to casters, mostly as part of a ad hominem attack on the person suggesting changes.

Then its usually followed by comments like, we are not buffbots, we don't want to be mass hold monkeys again, we want more variety etc.

Now, where is variety in casting one or two spells, and people are usually complaining about one or two spells. Where does the passion for that one spell comes from?

Here is the answer, and please repeat after me:
Don't touch my easy button, because it makes scroll farming easy.

[Aaxeyu]

Once i see raids taking only two melees ill cry nerf.

What's wrong with being proactive?

[Kriogen]

What's wrong with being proactive?
It's like a 'crime'. Can't be guilty of a murder if victim is still alive, kicking and whining.

It must first die.

And then: Not guilty until proved otherwise. Maybe that barbie died because of alchocol abuse or old age and not that witch did some foul magic, burn it!

[stille_nacht]

No.

WoP was a MUCH larger issue and it would have been WORSE in epics. We had 8 str 40 dex rangers running around killing stuff faster than 60 str barbarians. Damage per hit builds could not hold a candle to rate of attack builds. The big bosses during that time were Harry and Sully. WoP was crushing most else.

In epics on a CR 38 mob Imagine a weapon whose prefix does 19 points of damage per hit, and the suffix does ~67 points per crit. This is insane, and makes holy burst greater bane weapons look like masterwork.

heh, i think its even more... even if all epic mobs have, say, 70 con, they also have at least 2000 hp.

that means on each hit its about 29 damage, and on each crit, an extra 100. Now slap that on a rapier :P

[Kamo]

What's wrong with being proactive?

Because until there is evidence that melee have become the minority in the group, what would be the point of a nerf? That is proof enough to me it isnt game breaking.

I am still discriminated against on my caster when I try to join a shroud with 2 plus casters, Im not on my melee.

[krackythehoodedone]

In answer to the OP's question ..Probably

But why do we have to all cry ''Nerf'' in a fit of jealous indignation.

Let them have their fun.

Petition your own corner but dont call for your comrades heads on a silver platter.

I dont even play a caster but i dont begrudge them their days in the sun one iota.

And as a bonus ive done some serious piking in EDQ1 recently. Hordo would approve.

[Rawel_San]

Melees with WoPs soloed Elite Stealer of Souls but couldn't beat Sor'jek.

Casters solo Epic VON3, something meant to be an equal endgame challenge. They can kill the Marut.

Please show me all these casters. Seriously I want to see the casters that solo epic VON3. Unless you have
3 past lives wiz/3 fvs you will be chugging pots like there is no tomorrow or it will take you hours on end.
Obviously I'm a pathetically geared and pathetically played caster because with a 45 necro, 43 enchant DC
I just can't seem to be able to do these feats I keep hear about like casters soloing eVon3 or eTop faster
then full groups can.

Please stop spreading this nonsense. If there are 2-3 casters per server that can do that without pots and in
a reasonable time it's a lot and I highly doubt it. If you want to point out the OP of casters try claiming that after
good preparation they can take one side of eDeeps solo. That's something a well geared reasonably played caster
can do and it's definitely more then your average well geared well played melee can do. But stop with these
"casters solo eVon3" statements as if that was something every capped caster can do.

[sirgog]

Please show me all these casters. Seriously I want to see the casters that solo epic VON3. Unless you have
3 past lives wiz/3 fvs you will be chugging pots like there is no tomorrow or it will take you hours on end.
Obviously I'm a pathetically geared and pathetically played caster because with a 45 necro, 43 enchant DC
I just can't seem to be able to do these feats I keep hear about like casters soloing eVon3 or eTop faster
then full groups can.

Please stop spreading this nonsense. If there are 2-3 casters per server that can do that without pots and in
a reasonable time it's a lot and I highly doubt it. If you want to point out the OP of casters try claiming that after
good preparation they can take one side of eDeeps solo. That's something a well geared reasonably played caster
can do and it's definitely more then your average well geared well played melee can do. But stop with these
"casters solo eVon3" statements as if that was something every capped caster can do.

There were very few melees that could solo elite SoS back in the day too. I wasn't one of them.

The comparison is fair.

[Kamo]

Melees with WoPs soloed Elite Stealer of Souls but couldn't beat Sor'jek.

Casters solo Epic VON3, something meant to be an equal endgame challenge. They can kill the Marut.

Simply because a select few of elite can do it, does not mean that every capped caster in the DDO community can do it.

That is a lousy comparison.

[Rawel_San]

The 2-3 were eTop without pots in reasonable time.

Show me those 2-3 casters that can do eVon3 without pots in reasonable time. I don't know any and I think
I know a couple fairly good casters. I've seen achievements listing 20+ pots. That is an utterly useless result.
It's a laudable result and I bow to the people that achieve it but it's not something you should nerf over.
People solo'd shroud on a melee. So? There was a duo elite shroud. Solo Hound, solo ToD. None of these
reflect anything on the classes for the masses, they are done by incredibly driven players with huge knowledge
of the game and most of the time take many many pots to complete.

If you want to argue for nerfing casters point out the fact that a well played well geared Wizard can pull aggro
off dps specced barb on 0 fort enemies. That is a problem which is much bigger then the fact that the really
good wizards with really high dc's can instakill some stuff. I have a 45 necro DC and I still don't land stuff much
over 50% of the time in challenging epics (deeps, oob, chains, wk, DA).

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the premise that there needs to a bit more balancing done to casters, even
though I'd prefer it not take the route of instituting new mass immunities.

I am saying that your arguments are hugely misleading not to the point and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[negativeprogression]

Casters seem to be all or nothing in 'balance' terms; I think the problem lies in the spellpoint system, not their abilities.

If instead of spellpoints they had some kind of magical overuse mechanic (that could potentially lead to death perhaps) they could be extremely powerful but would have to manage how they use their spells and metamagics because of the inherent risks such power brings.

I do however agree with previous posters that have said that AI (or lack of) is a much bigger problem for the game.

[Cholera]

I dont agree with your statement that it is a larger issue due to the rarity of WOPS.

Certains casters at present can virtually solo many epics, your average melee is unable to do that, and certainly not at the speed a caster can.

Ok, here you've compared "certain", suggesting exceptionally skilled casters to "average", meaning not exceptionally skilled melees. The problem with this as a parallel is obvious. The other issue here is that WoP weapons did not become unusuable after a limited number of swings (successful or not) then requiring a rest shrine before they would be usable again.

On the face of it, your argument may seem reasonable but it isn't. Casters run out of mana and then require either a rest shrine or deep pockets / friends generous enough to keep their casters flush with majors. As the old saying goes, the flame the burns twice as bright burns half as long. In the case of melees versus casters; melees get far more than twice as long.

If you're not a caster, stop focusing on what they can do and focus on what YOU can do. The fact is that casters and melees are now on much more equal footing than in the past and many of those that play mostly or only melee simply need to get used to it.

Or, if that doesn't work for ya - just dont run with necro spec'd casters. Run with enchant spec'd casters. They still do all the old stuff, holds, dance, etc (that's my personal preference - I find that its more cost effective to use melee as primary damage anyway - plus, the guildies have more fun that way).

Anyhow, GL and please, do stop trying to ruin my fun by prompting Turbine to limit my options again.

[Brannigan]

Ok, here you've compared "certain", suggesting exceptionally skilled casters to "average", meaning not exceptionally skilled melees. The problem with this as a parallel is obvious. The other issue here is that WoP weapons did not become unusuable after a limited number of swings (successful or not) then requiring a rest shrine before they would be usable again.

On the face of it, your argument may seem reasonable but it isn't. Casters run out of mana and then require either a rest shrine or deep pockets / friends generous enough to keep their casters flush with majors. As the old saying goes, the flame the burns twice as bright burns half as long. In the case of melees versus casters; melees get far more than twice as long.

If you're not a caster, stop focusing on what they can do and focus on what YOU can do. The fact is that casters and melees are now on much more equal footing than in the past and many of those that play mostly or only melee simply need to get used to it.

Or, if that doesn't work for ya - just dont run with necro spec'd casters. Run with enchant spec'd casters. They still do all the old stuff, holds, dance, etc (that's my personal preference - I find that its more cost effective to use melee as primary damage anyway - plus, the guildies have more fun that way).

Anyhow, GL and please, do stop trying to ruin my fun by prompting Turbine to limit my options again.

:)

A few nice pointers, however I could mention that while WOPS do not run out of spell points, melee's do run out of hit points which tend to drop fast when your up against an epic mob for example as AC isn't viable (another topic).

Your Wizzy does not even have to expose himself to that, as he has no need to close engage with the mob.

Ahem :P

Anyway I'm not calling for a nerf, it doesn't matter to me either way personally - what is interesting is what seems to be the opinion that Turbine react to forum trends and nerf calls (even if it effects a small percentage of players) like WOPS did.

Personally I think the system we have needs 'tweaking' more until we find a better balance that encourages more team play and a mix of different character types and team work to overcome quest objectives (rather than one over whelming class etc) - I'm not just talking about casters being over powered, but making AC viable in end game content, sorting out other things for rogues (like a character with 1 rogue level being able to do what a 20th level rogue can do on traps for example) stuff like that.

I wonder what percentage of gamers that play ddo actually use the forums? - either way if something is really unbalanced then it needs fixing, and I prefer the word balance to nerf as thats what it should do :)

Anyway thanks for the comments, some interesting opinions here.

[Truga]

Personally I think the system we have needs 'tweaking' more until we find a better balance that encourages more team play and a mix of different character types and team work to overcome quest objectives

What I'd personally like best would be that any kind of group can go through any kind of quest with about the same challenge, while keeping class diversity (where higher challenge = better). The company which first makes a game like that gets all my monies. :D

[KristovK]

All i can think of is:

How does everyone know every abbreviation people come up with? Is there a abbreviation dictionary somewhere where i can find what everything means? What the *censored invective* does WoP stand for? I figured out DoTs, AOE, S&B, PSA, every prestige enhancement or quest/raid abbreviation...... now for WoP? Some deductive reasoning leads me to think it is something melee, but what sort?

feeewwww, feel so much better now i've got this of my chest.

Wounding of Puncturing, WoP, was a super effective and rather overlooked weapon property that was originally found ONLY on Pierce damage type weapons, Rapiers, Shortswords, Picks, Bows and Daggers(all I can think of offhand). They drain 1 Con on every hit and 1-6 on every crit. The way stat damage USED to work, 0 in a stat meant death regardless of the actual damage done. Due to WoP being found on only Pierce weapons, and in particular, on Rapiers, which have a high crit range normally and the best in the game with 1 feat added..well..things got ugly quickly when attack speeds and rates were different then we have now. Anyone with all the TWF feats using a pair of WoP Rapiers could kill anything short of a Boss in nothing flat. A couple of WoP rapiers was simply Godmode, there was NO defense against it, it was used in the PvP pits as well as against the mobs, it was just THAT **** powerful. There were more then a few Barbs running around with an 8 Str base and high Dex and high Con, because DPS wasn't the king, stat damage and speed of attacks was..toss in the old Crit Rage Barbs had and it was just..well...put it this way. The playerbase didn't really raise any fuss about it, because it was fun and it made most content trivial, and some people got a LOT of gold ingame for finding the rare and elusive WoP rapiers. I had a few of them myself, almost everyone I knew had at least 1 set, they weren't THAT rare, but if you didn't have one, and you saw how effective they were, you were willing to pay for them :)

The devs saw how this was borked and they fixed it. This wasn't a case of a single class or set of classes having an ability that other classes didn't, this was a case where a base game mechanic was simply being abused to hells and back by the playerbase. In Pen and Paper, the WoP is an extremely powerful and potent thing..and you'll NEVER see a decent GM let an entire group of players get 2 WoP rapiers EACH, said group would be lucky to ever actually get ONE of those weapons total among the entire group, they are simply that powerful in PnP..and were in DDO as well...which has no GM sitting there making sure you don't bend the game over backwards :) So the devs addressed the issue and in the process ruined many an exploit build, lost one myself, didn't whine, I KNEW it would be changed, it's an MMO, any obviously OP thing WILL get changed.

To the OP, instakill spells are not OP, they are limited by the simple fact that you need SP to use them and the mobs have a saving throw against most of them, and the 1 without a saving throw has a rather long timer. And the DCs some people are throwing out as being 'easy to attain'..that's pure kobold ****, they aren't easy to obtain, takes a lot of work and a very dedicated build and gear. The AVERAGE DCs most Necros take into Epics when they start..not enough to instakill anything without some serious debuffing going on. 34 DC will SOMETIMES work after 3 Enervations in most Epics, but a 38 with 3 Energy Drains is just as often not enough, luck of the roll on mob saves. I've hit an Epic Gnoll Berserker with a DC38 FoD and had it drop the first time, no debuffs..I've also hit them with 3 Energy Drains before they dropped to that same DC38 FoD. 50 SP to drop 1, 200 SP to drop the other 1..there's no guarantee that you'll drop an Epic mob with an instakill with under a 48 DC..and even with that, any of them can save on a 20, even 50 isn't a promise of everything in Epic that isn't immune will drop. Sirgog and some others would have you believe that you can waltz through Epics with a 38 Necro and never have any problems with things saving, and that's pure bs.

No, the only issue with Casters currently is the unlimited SP they can attain due to ConOpp items, SP replenishing gear and SP pots from drops and the Store. I'm all for removing those from the game totally, that's the only thing that needs to be done to restore the limit to a Caster's actual power.

[tharveysinjin]

:)

A few nice pointers, however I could mention that while WOPS do not run out of spell points, melee's do run out of hit points which tend to drop fast when your up against an epic mob for example as AC isn't viable (another topic).

Your Wizzy does not even have to expose himself to that, as he has no need to close engage with the mob.

I beg to differ. I see mobs bypass my barbarian all of the time and head straight for the casters and clerics. There is nothing more frustrating for me, than to whack the mob a couple of times, only to have the mob run from me, to the cleric and start attacking the cleric.

Casters do have hitpoints and usually far fewer than the melee classes. It is yet another false argument to compare a caster's mana points to a melee's hit points, and then claim that hit points don't matter to a caster. I see casters die all of the time, because they happened to run out of hit points, of all things. Mana is the raw weapon that a caster uses against the mobs, just as the greataxe is the weapon that I use.

[Gremmlynn]

Another day, another nerf request.

I can only assume that casters aren't allowed to have nice things, and that melees feel that they're the only ones entitled. At least, there seem to be a lot of melees having trouble sitting down and enjoying their new role as meat shields for their former buffbots. Maybe they're hurting somewhere down south ...It's all the out of work melees caused by the upgrade from "mass hold them to death" (with melees doing the "to death" scut work) to the new automated "mass kill them to death" standard.

Those who lose their jobs, however menial those jobs were, due to more efficient systems tend to form a dislike to those systems regardless of how irrational it is. A similar outrage would likely have been seen if mass hold were still the standard, but the arcanes started employing harbor kobolds to clean up the helpless trash for a smaller cut of the loot.

[KristovK]

It's all the out of work melees caused by the upgrade from "mass hold them to death" (with melees doing the "to death" scut work) to the new automated "mass kill them to death" standard.

Those who lose their jobs, however menial those jobs were, due to more efficient systems tend to form a dislike to those systems regardless of how irrational it is. A similar outrage would likely have been seen if mass hold were still the standard, but the arcanes started employing harbor kobolds to clean up the helpless trash for a smaller cut of the loot.

I TRIED that, getting kobolds to do the cleanup, but the **** Union demands were just too steep! They didn't just want a cut of the loot, they wanted FULL medical, dental and life insurance!

Give me a few Barbs, just tell em that the boss said something nasty about their mother, like..'he said your mother wears a dress' to a HOrc Barb..they'll pay YOU for the right to kill that boss :)

[Xaxx]

This.

bingo

.. guess i should have also added the orginal quote to.. bah...

[Tirisha]

Now, there is more than one way to kill in epics. Are some ways faster? Sure. But pre-U9, conventional wisdom held that if you brought more than 2 casters or 2 divines into a shroud, you wouldn't be able to complete. For all the complaints, for all of the changes, we wouldn't even THINK of looking at melees that way.

Sry to nit pick but this is a bad example. Before U9: I routinely brought as many casters or divines into a shroud that would click on my LFM before it filled. Before U9, casters did do considerable sustainable DPS to Harry. It was a common misconception that they couldn't, a misconception that exists in some pugs today.

I always found it amusing when someone would express concern that there are 5 casters in the group, right before we one round harry (I know it's not a big deal anymore O.o, used to be in a pug at least pre U9). Now the more casters, the better. your chances of getting a non-caster pug that can out dps a caster pug on harry is probably worse than getting an unbound +4 tome this festivult.
.

[Lissyl]

I wonder what percentage of gamers that play ddo actually use the forums?

As an industry-wide approximation, less than 10% of players ever even look at the forum, and less than 1% ever make a single post, giving rise to the term 'The vocal 1%'.


What I'd personally like best would be that any kind of group can go through any kind of quest with about the same challenge, while keeping class diversity (where higher challenge = better). The company which first makes a game like that gets all my monies.

They would also be apt to spend their spare time walking on water! :p

[Quarterling]

IMHO, Turbine should nerf their ability to hand out nerfs.

[taurean430]

Sry to nit pick but this is a bad example. Before U9: I routinely brought as many casters or divines into a shroud that would click on my LFM before it filled. Before U9, casters did do considerable sustainable DPS to Harry. It was a common misconception that they couldn't, a misconception that exists in some pugs today.

I always found it amusing when someone would express concern that there are 5 casters in the group, right before we one round harry (I know it's not a big deal anymore O.o, used to be in a pug at least pre U9). Now the more casters, the better. your chances of getting a non-caster pug that can out dps a caster pug on harry is probably worse than getting an unbound +4 tome this festivult.
.

The poster you quoted was referring to epics. And I believe he is spot on correct.

I simply don't understand the plethora of complaints from players... the same players in multiple threads regarding casters. Melee remain just as viable as they have been. Melee still comprise up to 8 slots in any given raid, and up to four slots for any given epic.

What has changed in my observations thusfar is the playability of my arcane casters. It no longer takes hours of trying to join groups and being declined because there is already a caster present. This held true in epic and non-epic quests and raids. I can log into either of them and gain acceptance into groups just as easily as I can on my barb or fighters. This is a good thing.

I've been playing over two years now. And for over 22 months I've had to deal with constant rejection on a regular basis when playing my arcanes. This has changed, and I am still strongly of the opinion it is for the better. I've no doubt that there will be tweaking regarding DOT effects amongst other things. This in no way appears to affect my caster's viability. I was outdoing all but epic geared melee before the spell pass. And melee remain dominant in numbers in every end game quest or raid I've done since the spell pass. This leads me to the conclusion that most arguments I've read here are complete malarky. Some people; the same people over and over in multiple threads, are arguing what 'could' happen. Not what has happened. The need for a reality check is strong lately on these forums.

[Tirisha]

The poster you quoted was referring to epics. And I believe he is spot on correct.

I simply don't understand the plethora of complaints from players... the same players in multiple threads regarding casters. Melee remain just as viable as they have been. Melee still comprise up to 8 slots in any given raid, and up to four slots for any given epic.

What has changed in my observations thusfar is the playability of my arcane casters. It no longer takes hours of trying to join groups and being declined because there is already a caster present. This held true in epic and non-epic quests and raids. I can log into either of them and gain acceptance into groups just as easily as I can on my barb or fighters. This is a good thing.

I've been playing over two years now. And for over 22 months I've had to deal with constant rejection on a regular basis when playing my arcanes. This has changed, and I am still strongly of the opinion it is for the better. I've no doubt that there will be tweaking regarding DOT effects amongst other things. This in no way appears to affect my caster's viability. I was outdoing all but epic geared melee before the spell pass. And melee remain dominant in numbers in every end game quest or raid I've done since the spell pass. This leads me to the conclusion that most arguments I've read here are complete malarky. Some people; the same people over and over in multiple threads, are arguing what 'could' happen. Not what has happened. The need for a reality check is strong lately on these forums.

His specific example was Shroud. Which was what I was referring to.

Some of the things you've mentioned regarding slots are simply not true. They may be true for pugs who haven't figured it out yet *it being that a caster can easily fill multiple roles exceptionally well *including DPS which was the only reason for having multiple non-casters in a group pre U9* while non-casters struggle with the gear/trs necessary to fill one role as well as a moderately geared first life caster*

A party benefiting from having a variety of classes was a good thing. Now, you are better off with multiple of the same or like classes.

How many Caster classes are there? how many non-caster classes are there? What we had before U9 was undoubtedly balance in my mind.

Before U9 you could complete epic quests with multiple casters in the group it was just more difficult to encourage variety. After U9 you can complete epic quests with non-casters in your group, it is just more difficult to encourage not-variety.

[taurean430]

His specific example was Shroud. Which was what I was referring to.

I'd suggest you read the post you've quoted again. It says:


A few things here:

Without WoPs, melee damage was still very powerful. It wasn't casters complaining, it was other melees. WoPs were an impediment to expanding the game and making quests harder, because they trivialized most mobs no matter how tough they were. There was no opportunity cost -- no limited actions or resources spent, no save or chance of failure, etc.

Also, the I couldn't think of a worse justification for a nerf than "many threads are complaining about it." For one, it's the same people in many of these threads (I'm not disregarding those people's opinions, just the idea that many threads = many people).

But more importantly, making radical game changes based on the whims of the forums is seldom wise. Consider that when U9 first came out, many many more people were complaining that casters had actually been nerfed, and were promising to quit over just how bad and un-fun their casters would be in U9. Those complains were far more numerous, and arguably more "spirited". What if, in response to that, Turbine had made them even MORE powerful, or nerfed melees to balance?

Lastly, and this goes back to the WoP comparison -- without WoPs, melees were still the go-to guys in raids. They were still powerful, viable, whatever term you want to use. Pre-U9, casters were very potent in non-epic content, but in endgame content, it was very limited. In fact, endgame content pre-U9 was UNBELIEVABLY BORING. There was one way -- a mass melee beatdown on mass held creatures, with high crit weapons. Little else mattered. IF you were a cleric with high DC's? DIdn't matter, it was heal, and when not healing, hope you had a dreamspitter handy to help with the autocrit beatdown (not that they needed the help).

Now, there is more than one way to kill in epics. Are some ways faster? Sure. But pre-U9, conventional wisdom held that if you brought more than 2 casters or 2 divines into a shroud, you wouldn't be able to complete. For all the complaints, for all of the changes, we wouldn't even THINK of looking at melees that wa

I've highlighted it for you so you don't miss it this time. I again see no mention of Shroud there.


Some of the things you've mentioned regarding slots are simply not true.<snip>

To further the point I made in my previous post, I just logged in with my new bard and took a look at some of the lfm's up at this time. The raids are the same formula I mentioned. There are up to 8 melee slots as opposed to having up to 8 casters. This specific lfm has in it a number of players who are quite active at current endgame. It is typical to see lfm's like this at nearly any time of day on my server. Please take a moment and notice the caster to melee ratio. Because this is what is actually happening day in and day out:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1986/raidone1279217.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/i/raidone1279217.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

In terms of Epic Raids, here is another forming party. Notice that of the 9 slots already filled, there is one arcane. And they are looking for either three healing capable toons, or two healing capable toons and one additional arcane. Yet and still, only a max of two casters will be allowed in that party. A party that is typical of lfm's at nearly any given time on my server:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4779/epicraid22096784.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/epicraid22096784.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


These are common examples of the party makeup running endgame and near endgame content. They remain just as melee heavy as they always have been. So, once more I point you to my previous point.

The facts are clear in this matter. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase are not excluding melee from anything. This has been my observation since the first helter skelter thread appeared, and remains my observation as of this am. So again... malarky I say.

[Tirisha]

Sry Taurean but I didn't quote that. http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3927982&postcount=53 the qoute in my post specifically references the shroud.

[taurean430]

Which clearly was in post number #29. And as I've pointed out to you twice now, he is referring to epics.

[Tirisha]

The facts are clear in this matter. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase are not excluding melee from anything. This has been my observation since the first helter skelter thread appeared, and remains my observation as of this am. So again... malarky I say.

Firstly nobody here has claimed that people are not taking non-casters in there pugs anymore.

An lfm is not proof of anything. 2 things would need to happen for all or most LFMs to be comprised of Casters:

1) The DDO community would have to know how powerful Casters are as a whole (this clearly isn't true yet, since people are still trying to argue that being able to tank, heal, dps and CC exceptionally well on one character *no matter the gear* is not OP)

2) The DDO community would have to know how powerful Casters are as a whole long enough (possibly years) that the servers become polluted with casters, making it possible to fill a Pug with all casters in a reasonable amount of time.


What your LFMS don't tell you is that non-pugs are now routinely ran with all casters because many people who don't pug *not never, but don't always* may know how powerful casters are and since they have friends and guildies running with them, it's as easy as those friends/guildies logging onto their casters to fill a group with all casters.


It is a flawed logic to claim that because most PUGS aren't filling with all casters that casters are not overpowered. There are too many variables that go into it too make that claim.

[Tirisha]

Which clearly was in post number #29. And as I've pointed out to you twice now, he is referring to epics.

lol did you read the quote? the specific example he used was shroud. I was replying to that. Regardless. Even in epics you could take more than 1 caster and still do just fine, the group might be better off with a more BALANCED party, but you could complete. Now a Balanced party consists of 6 self healing casters or 5 casters and 1 healer.

[Kalari]

Interesting, in recent threads, kill counts are usually mentioned by people against changes to casters, mostly as part of a ad hominem attack on the person suggesting changes.

Then its usually followed by comments like, we are not buffbots, we don't want to be mass hold monkeys again, we want more variety etc.

Now, where is variety in casting one or two spells, and people are usually complaining about one or two spells. Where does the passion for that one spell comes from?

Here is the answer, and please repeat after me:
Don't touch my easy button, because it makes scroll farming easy.

Seriously because I dont scroll farm I know many casters who dont find that particular way of doing epics fun. I play a social game when I am in epics its not alone its with a full group. IT is about kill counts on both sides I have been very vocal and admitted to it. I like being able to contribute more then buffing and holding and so has many of the people against nerfing.

but I do see a lot of melees who are trying to say its not about kill count then what is it? What makes you more viable or less viable then? if its not about the ability to kill trash or kill period what is the argument? See I can at least admit my bias and what I am arguing for and take the flames that come with it I am not hiding behind the think of other players. I dont want to nerf someone to have fun I have felt the nerf of the wop changes I could have easily let it frustrate me to the point of not playing but thing is my melee moved on and adapted.

Id like to think if heaven forbid they nerf my casters the amount of things that keep me playing ddo would keep me going but I honestly dont know anymore. You see I remember how eager I was to play my level 20 wizards and sorcerers pre U9 and it was not that much. Now that all the love and care I put into them can be felt in more ways then it used to be I want to play them again it gives me a reason to sign into the game. Take that away and Id have to hope that what I do have left is enough to keep me going.

Thats my argument for it not asking anyone to agree or even like what I say but at least I am being honest even if it is selfish.

[countfitz]

the classes are balanced, some are just more balanced than others :)

While this statement probably is just a clever joke, it in fact is why there is no need to nerf. CLASSES might be unequal, but WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THEM! If you want to make a WF Sorc Air Savant, go ahead and pwn the game all you want. The more the merrier. I'm still playing my Horc Pali and Horc Battle Cleric (that's right, Battle Cleric, cause any casting at all is better than pure melee, I said it, go ahead and prove me wrong). Point being, anyone can be uber if they want, or they can play a fighter.

BUT, when it came down to WOPs, not everyone was able to afford such a rare drop. In my year or so, I've looted two, a shortbow and a dagger, neither the best, and sold them.

Now, with crafting (yuck, still built one for fun, way over ML to be useful) and the twin short swords from the Lordsmarch chain (that you can add Vampirism to) yeah, everyone could get them and be good. BUT, back when they were nerfed it wasn't equal, not everyone could get them, and it was just unfair.

They do allow for more interesting builds though. My wifes evasion pali used the shortswords for a bit before she built greensteel, cause low dps doesn't really matter with them. I even carried around the greatsword version of it with her, kicks ass even after the nerf.

BTW, we do all know the WOP nerf still makes for some great options, even today, right? A party carrying those can own.

[Thoradin]

Ive run various casters/meleers for a good while now and have several TR toons. All I have to say on this subject is if you envy a class go run it. Crying for nerfs because your not the best or w/e is silly. For those that cry "Nerf the caster!" because they play one and do overpowered stuff with them.. good for you lol.. means you are really playing your class well.. for those that arent running one.. well nevermind on that train of thought. I have seen a LOT of crazy stuff done by casters... and healers.. and meleers... and archers... typically the people that are doing insane things have had one of 2 things happen.. either: A) they found (or were shown) an easy way to do things or B) they are just outplaying the average person and deserve it.. either way quick whining.. find your own ways to get it done. Sorry for the rant but im sick of every online game having the constant NERF NERF NERF chanting crowd running around.

[taurean430]

lol did you read the quote? the specific example he used was shroud. I was replying to that. Regardless. Even in epics you could take more than 1 caster and still do just fine, the group might be better off with a more BALANCED party, but you could complete. Now a Balanced party consists of 6 self healing casters or 5 casters and 1 healer.

I've read this entire thread. I've also read the others where people have seen fit to argue hypotheticals, potiental possibility, and what significantly less than 1% of the gaming community is actually doing. These arguments persist in multiple threads are based off of discontent that casting classes are not limited to only buffing/healing/holding mobs for others. I have taken the time to show you what you are not paying attention to, yet you still pose illogical conclusions.

Arguing the 'fear' that caster instakill and sla ability makes melee 'useless' is what you are doing. The trends do not support this arguement.

[NaturalHazard]

The cries for nerfs become tiresome after awhile. This is why we can't have nice things. ;)

so true +1 soon everything will be nerfed and we will all be forced to play the game one, way, and hey I dont even have a caster.

[Chai]

I dont agree with your statement that it is a larger issue due to the rarity of WOPS.

Certains casters at present can virtually solo many epics, your average melee is unable to do that, and certainly not at the speed a caster can.

Rarity? Everyone who wanted em had em. In 2008 you either had em or you were second best.

And with the crafting system, people were cranking out WoP flametouched weapons. Even in their current state they are insanely powerful.

Casters were able to solo epics melee couldnt even pre U9. That likely wont change unless you nerf em into the ground to the point that makes the class unplayable. If this is the point people are griping about, then they will never be happy unless casters are unplayable. This is why I dont support nerfs, because not only is the basis for the request weak (zomg someone else can do something better than my favorite class can, where they couldnt before!!!) but we all know what the end result of nerf requests are. The class goes from overpowered to meh. Even the people asking for the nerf wont be happy. I have observed that it is many of the same people who ask for nerfs who complain about them after the fact, when its too late.

[NaturalHazard]

Rarity? Everyone who wanted em had em. In 2008 you either had em or you were second best.

And with the crafting system, people were cranking out WoP flametouched weapons. Even in their current state they are insanely powerful.

Casters were able to solo epics melee couldnt even pre U9. That likely wont change unless you nerf em into the ground to the point that makes the class unplayable. If this is the point people are griping about, then they will never be happy unless casters are unplayable.

maybe the answer is not nerfing casters into the ground but maybe boosting stuff like stunning blow, sap, trip or what ever?

[Chai]

maybe the answer is not nerfing casters into the ground but maybe boosting stuff like stunning blow, sap, trip or what ever?

Yeap.

Melee have already been nerfed, so give em some of their candy back. We already know how alot of that stuff impacted the game because much of it was in the game for years.

[NaturalHazard]

Yeap.

Melee have already been nerfed, so give em some of their candy back. We already know how alot of that stuff impacted the game because much of it was in the game for years.

Im always catious about screaming for the nerf bat, because when it comes out it seems to hit a lot of foul balls. All that it seems to do is limmit your options more and pigeon hole people more. I would really like to see more tactics added to melee combate, and maybe some more added to ranged, maybe a slow effect on arrows and a teleport lock effect on those pesky devils? Heck I dont even have an AA or a repeater rogue, or a stun capable charactor. I dont know, maybe my warforged bard? lol. I just think that more nerfs and limmiting peoples options and playstlye is not a good thing for the game.

[Emili]

Wounding of Puncturing

Used to kill a mob when it reached zero con

Think duel wielding dex based rangers just destroying content Pre TWF nerf

Crit range barbarians with and evasive splash dual weilding wop rapiers and picks... often did it better. Came time for the boss and they were still chugging away dishing out acceptable dps.

[stille_nacht]

Crit range barbarians dual weilding wop rapiers and picks... did it better.



i think rangers were slightly better back when there was 10% alaclarity per tempest

[Emili]

i think rangers were slightly better back when there was 10% alaclarity per tempest

Actually depending on the scope of quest and character build... 13-20 crit range plus a 10% haste boost (from a rogue or fighter lvl) vs 15-20 and 10% alacrity. Six on one half dozen on the other...

There were quite a few barbs built that way and using nips outside of wops and could solo things alike etk and every other refuge quest with ease as they had enough dps to do so outside the wop while so many placed thier eggs in one basket... Piercing spec strength built melee were the route to take for well rounded bred characters cross the wop factor.All the same Wop was a very powerful toy in any hands...

Solo vs group... it's very funny actually. I've stated in a few threads now on these forums and others I typically solo everything outside epics or raids these days. Someone retorted the famous words "kill count" when I did... no sorry is not about kill count, more the fact is when you invest in a character you like to do something with it. There are no reasons waste a stun, trip, smite, haste boost cooldown (cc it) when overlap occur such as it's FoD'd while you're whacking on it... likewise is no reason to waste an FoD on a mob with 50hp left... nor waste CC on five when you know you'd wail them all or near all at their full hp. ;)

Also seems a little elitist of me I admit but sometimes you place up lfm and get filled with all these people you do not know - and they do not know the quest. You end up playing nanny on whatever toon you're on... farming sigil in inferno as example and telling them leave your air mephit alone for the third or fourth time because you're using it to blow out the torches is frustrating (suppose should have picked up a coc wand or picked an arcane up). Whatever...

Been soloing edq1 last night on my PM, three passes not a bloody scroll nor seal before I got called into raids...

The game today is easy ... for a lot of reasons, first - we know all the quests, second - the mob were toned down for all those people who left leaving an exit poll stating the game was too hard, third - every character class has the available tools to be self-sufficient in every manner , some more than others given light, forth - every class have ample gain of dps... list goes on.

Hmmm bards and rangers ... You know Matt once asked me what my favorite classes are? Scope being they always came up in mind - must be why i've two and three respectively. My SS being my favour'd bard I think because even though her melee not like my chanter ... she does melee and scope versitily to do all else bardic. Likewise with the rangers they all carry bows and melee weapons beit tempest or AA.

When you build a fighter or barb you do not have the luxury of having little perks - alternatives - on the side, like tactics for instance ... you have to press a fighter hard to apply for ample DC's and such is the scope those things are only useful on trash - Chai has some good ideas when comes to tactical approaches but I cannot help wonder even if a melee could stun or sap more often - they only pertain to trash mob so what's the use of that? I kind of miss the days when I could trip or stun a boss. I used to love my improved trip and stuns on my fighter pre-u9, those animations and loss of double-strike and dps to smash the key for them a turn off.

[Tirisha]

I've read this entire thread. I've also read the others where people have seen fit to argue hypotheticals, potiental possibility, and what significantly less than 1% of the gaming community is actually doing. These arguments persist in multiple threads are based off of discontent that casting classes are not limited to only buffing/healing/holding mobs for others. I have taken the time to show you what you are not paying attention to, yet you still pose illogical conclusions.

Arguing the 'fear' that caster instakill and sla ability makes melee 'useless' is what you are doing. The trends do not support this arguement.

I don't think you understand what I'm arguing. People are fabricating what they think the other believes and projecting onto them.

I've never once said that instant kill and SLA abilities alone make melee useless. If something I said in a previous post brought this misconception plz link it to me and I'll edit it for clarity.

[grgurius]

Seriously because I dont scroll farm I know many casters who dont find that particular way of doing epics fun. I play a social game when I am in epics its not alone its with a full group. IT is about kill counts on both sides I have been very vocal and admitted to it. I like being able to contribute more then buffing and holding and so has many of the people against nerfing.

but I do see a lot of melees who are trying to say its not about kill count then what is it? What makes you more viable or less viable then? if its not about the ability to kill trash or kill period what is the argument? See I can at least admit my bias and what I am arguing for and take the flames that come with it I am not hiding behind the think of other players. I dont want to nerf someone to have fun I have felt the nerf of the wop changes I could have easily let it frustrate me to the point of not playing but thing is my melee moved on and adapted.

Id like to think if heaven forbid they nerf my casters the amount of things that keep me playing ddo would keep me going but I honestly dont know anymore. You see I remember how eager I was to play my level 20 wizards and sorcerers pre U9 and it was not that much. Now that all the love and care I put into them can be felt in more ways then it used to be I want to play them again it gives me a reason to sign into the game. Take that away and Id have to hope that what I do have left is enough to keep me going.

Thats my argument for it not asking anyone to agree or even like what I say but at least I am being honest even if it is selfish.

First of all, i'm speaking this from a casters perspective, it really isn't about kill count. Problem is actually in the current state of the game. Between weak mobs and win button that is wail playing caster is like playing in god mode atm. That is the reason why after u9 my caster is more or less shelved.

Second, most of the people suggesting changes to casters are caster players, not melees crying about kill count. But i have noticed a trend in recent threads where kill count argument is used as part of a personal attack against the person suggesting the changes.

Then there is the variety argument. There you can really see that people want to keep their easy button. Most of the so called "nerf" suggestions revolve around a single spell, wail of the banshee. Judging by the comments from people against the changes any change to wail would make casters unplayable and that is kinda funny, considering all of the other spells at their disposal.

I'm just speaking what i think, not hiding behind anybody, but without some solid arguments i wont change my stand on the topic.

[Edyit76]

I dont agree with your statement that it is a larger issue due to the rarity of WOPS.

Certains casters at present can virtually solo many epics, your average melee is unable to do that, and certainly not at the speed a caster can.

Thats right some casters can. These casters are not your average casters. These are the guys that have multi TR's and are twinked out with full epic gear. How can you, in your own words, compare these casters to an average melee. An average caster and an average melee are just that. Average.

When you start using people that eat/sleep/breath DDO as an example you have failed. I'm sorry that someone that used to only cast haste and mass hold for you can now actually do something else.

[Hikup]

I have to agree with most here and say that nerfs are not the way to go. Making melee viable on the other hand would be good ;)

[TE5LA]

Wounding of Puncturing.
Oh, good! I was beginning to think it was a derogatory remark against Italians :)

[Kalari]

First of all, i'm speaking this from a casters perspective, it really isn't about kill count. Problem is actually in the current state of the game. Between weak mobs and win button that is wail playing caster is like playing in god mode atm. That is the reason why after u9 my caster is more or less shelved.

Second, most of the people suggesting changes to casters are caster players, not melees crying about kill count. But i have noticed a trend in recent threads where kill count argument is used as part of a personal attack against the person suggesting the changes.

Then there is the variety argument. There you can really see that people want to keep their easy button. Most of the so called "nerf" suggestions revolve around a single spell, wail of the banshee. Judging by the comments from people against the changes any change to wail would make casters unplayable and that is kinda funny, considering all of the other spells at their disposal.

I'm just speaking what i think, not hiding behind anybody, but without some solid arguments i wont change my stand on the topic.

Seriously wail of the banshee with its long cool down time the fact that you have to know how to round up mobs to even get it to do what it needs to properly. The fact that in a good balanced team it works better then a ton of casters spamming it with its 30 second cool down timer.

Ive read posts to according to some of these uber casters who are asking for the nerfs they go into epics and wail away. Id love to see how that is possible since even on a sorc there is a long enough cool down timer. It was faster pulling a bunch of mobs into a disco or hold and firewalling them down.

Then you add dc's which if your build properly no problem. But see there in lies the issue not ever pale master is dropped from the same graveyard not everyone will max out their spell pen get their dc's high enough to be the kind of caster that can do it all. But when people cry for nerfs behind the few who can it hurts us all as casters. Thats what I am getting at, there is emotional overstating on both sides, only thing is I am not asking for anyone to be scaled back or NERFED. And I **** sure am not going to sit back quietly while someone floods the boards with nerf my favorite classes threads and several of them bemoaning the same things over and over.

Anyone who is good at the game is going to shine, any caster who knows how to kite, heal themselves and blast away will be golden. But I cannot name more them maybe a handful I know personally who can do this I know a ton of melees who get threw content just fine I dont ask for anyone to be nerfed I just play and have fun. Maybe If I start worrying about how fast or easier others get threw content then I will have a reason to ask to nerf anyone but till then Id rather not Id rather enjoy the game and right now that my casters are not one trick ponies I am enjoying it more and more.

[KristovK]

Once again, as to the OP, no, Casters are not OP like WoP was, there's saves and SR checks for the instakills Casters can now use in Epics. Oh, btw, they've had those SAME instakills in NON-EPICS for years now, they do NOT work any different post U9 then pre-U9 outside of Epics, and NO ONE was complaining about them previously. Probably because MOST Casters pre-U9 were Enchant and Conj spec'd, because that's all you used in Epics huh so you didn't see lots of Necro spec'd Casters running around Wailing everything in sight. You saw lots of Casters running around CCing everything in sight while the Melees beat it down instead. NOW...now instakills work in Epics like they work everywhere else and guess what..you still see lots of CCing and Melee doing the wetwork because lots of Casters were already Enchant spec'd, no reason to change what's ALWAYS worked! But..you also see some of those Necro builds who can hit 40+ DCs having some fun in Epics by killing things themselves with their most powerful spells, builds that people have worked very hard on and spent years NOT being able to use them to their potential.

Non-Casters are just as effective, actually MORE effective in Epics then before, since the mob HPs were lowered. I'm sorry some of you feel that your Melee are no longer useful and are a waste of a slot, but that's YOU, not the game, the game actually made your Melee MORE useful, you just refuse to acknowledge that because you no longer are the BEST way to blast through Epics.

[Brannigan]

Once again, as to the OP, no, Casters are not OP like WoP was, there's saves and SR checks for the instakills Casters can now use in Epics. Oh, btw, they've had those SAME instakills in NON-EPICS for years now, they do NOT work any different post U9 then pre-U9 outside of Epics, and NO ONE was complaining about them previously. Probably because MOST Casters pre-U9 were Enchant and Conj spec'd, because that's all you used in Epics huh so you didn't see lots of Necro spec'd Casters running around Wailing everything in sight. You saw lots of Casters running around CCing everything in sight while the Melees beat it down instead. NOW...now instakills work in Epics like they work everywhere else and guess what..you still see lots of CCing and Melee doing the wetwork because lots of Casters were already Enchant spec'd, no reason to change what's ALWAYS worked! But..you also see some of those Necro builds who can hit 40+ DCs having some fun in Epics by killing things themselves with their most powerful spells, builds that people have worked very hard on and spent years NOT being able to use them to their potential.

Non-Casters are just as effective, actually MORE effective in Epics then before, since the mob HPs were lowered. I'm sorry some of you feel that your Melee are no longer useful and are a waste of a slot, but that's YOU, not the game, the game actually made your Melee MORE useful, you just refuse to acknowledge that because you no longer are the BEST way to blast through Epics.

I think you have missed the point of what I was saying.

And for some reason it feels like you left the words 'so there' off the end of your last paragraph.

I'm sure you may enjoy 'blasting' your way through Epic content killing mobs before the poor melee has even gotten close to engaging a mob and being the BEST as you put it.

What an enjoyable experience that must be for that player following you around.

In the same way it must have been not very enjoyable for players seeing a noodle barb armed with mobs single handedly walking through mobs before they could even get involved (in seconds).

That's why WOPS were changed, they removed challenge and were affecting the enjoyment of other players due to being unbalanced.

Regardless that a player may have to TR a few times to achieve the same unbalancing power with thier spells, imo makes them no harder than it was to get your hands on a pair of WOP rapiers (and is probably easier).

Enjoy it while you can.

[KristovK]

I think you have missed the point of what I was saying.

And for some reason it feels like you left the words 'so there' off the end of your last paragraph.

I'm sure you may enjoy 'blasting' your way through Epic content killing mobs before the poor melee has even gotten close to engaging a mob and being the BEST as you put it.

What an enjoyable experience that must be for that player following you around.

In the same way it must have been not very enjoyable for players seeing a noodle barb armed with mobs single handedly walking through mobs before they could even get involved (in seconds).

That's why WOPS were changed, they removed challenge and were affecting the enjoyment of other players due to being unbalanced.

Regardless that a player may have to TR a few times to achieve the same unbalancing power with thier spells, imo makes them no harder than it was to get your hands on a pair of WOP rapiers (and is probably easier).

Enjoy it while you can.

I think YOU missed the point..

WoP, NO save, NO resistance, worked on anything and everything except Undead and Portals. Everyone and their kobold footmen had sets of them, at least everyone I ran with on Argo, I even had WoP heavy picks on my Wizard.

Again, WoP, NO SAVES, NO RESISTANCES, worked on anything not undead or a portal.

Instakills, Arcane or Divine, have to beat their saving throw AND have to get around their SR when it's applicable. Doesn't work on anything undead or a portal or deathwarded or with deathblock. Bosses totally immune.

Getting DCs up high enough to ignore saves..not actually possible currently, but you can hit a 45 with a TR and good gear, 50 with a completionist and the top possible gear..still not a save on 20 only, but close as we can get. Spell Pen, same thing.

So..no, Casters aren't even in the same field as WoP was.

And MY Casters..a PM and Air Savant..neither of them wade through Epics like they were nothing. My PM with a DC 38 can't instakill without debuffing often enough to be effective, run out of SP before mobs. And my Savant..Necro DC of 32...yeah..not wading through Epics, necro spells are a joke with that DC. My Casters rely on a good party to get through Epics, preferably a nice group of meatshields with big pointy things to keep those mobs AWAY from my precious hide. Just because I don't advocate nerfing Casters, doesn't mean I actually HAVE one with a DC45+ who just strolls through Epics solo like it was nothing(not that that is actually happening, but that IS the example used so often). Casters are finally on par with Melee when it comes to DPS, and the simple fact is, they SHOULD have been higher then Melee all along. They've been higher in non-Epics and places without the Deathward effects, but no one noticed because Epics were what counted. And even still, they don't compare to the WoP issue.

[kitsune_ko]

I believe that WoP (or any weapon that drains CON) no longer results in a "Insta-kill" but rather that when their CON hits 0, that they become stunned now instead. I have also noticed in higher level content that some mobs can "shake off" the CON damage as I have seen hits showing up as "0,0,1,0,0,0,1" well before they hit 0 on some mobs I have attacked with a CON damaging weapon. That and I have also noticed that when they hit 0 CON, and stop taking CON based damage, in higher level content they still quite often have a fair bit of HP left.

My FvS is a very gimpy damage dealer being healing based, so I always use CON damaging weapons to help her out a bit when I get stuck with meleeing.

So while there is no saves for WoP damage, the fact that it now only results in the creature being incapacitated, until it regains a CON point, instead of being quite busy being dead (Which I believe is also much harder for your average mob to recover from) does make caster insta-kills a bit more powerful in my books.

WoP weapons deal stat damage, and this can wear off and in itself no longer fatal.

[Emili]

Non-Casters are just as effective, actually MORE effective in Epics then before, since the mob HPs were lowered. I'm sorry some of you feel that your Melee are no longer useful and are a waste of a slot, but that's YOU, not the game, the game actually made your Melee MORE useful, you just refuse to acknowledge that because you no longer are the BEST way to blast through Epics.

Actually ... the same DC's which were raised slightly to deal with arcane - affect melee tacticals - you must press a melee to higher tactic levels than you had to before u9.

And... even if your arcane is casting mass holds and CC on all the mob instead of dpsing and participating in other ways ... the melee does less than it did before u9m even with the mob hp halfed ... the ratio you took to the old way is not the same. Prior to the change CC'd mob were auto-crit ... that is x3 or x4 every swing. That is no longer true - now it is x1.5 every swing because they changed the effect on hopeless mob. Mind you they halved the mob hp and added x1.5 on element/alignment procs but before you were running off 300% and 400% of your character's hitting power ... now it's 150% instead plus 150% weapon procs. The weapon now becomes increased in more importance than your character's base abilities in that respect.

However, due the way we were doing things pre-u9 placed melee at their top form ... and is funny because it was in fact mostly the caster doing that. After u9 and change of many tactics melee actually do much less than half the damage they did before u9.

[KristovK]

Actually ... the same DC's which were raised slightly to deal with arcane - affect melee tacticals - you must press a melee to higher tactic levels than you had to before u9.

And... even if your arcane is casting mass holds and CC on all the mob instead of dpsing and participating in other ways ... the melee does less than it did before u9m even with the mob hp halfed ... the ratio you took to the old way is not the same. Prior to the change CC'd mob were auto-crit ... that is x3 or x4 every swing. That is no longer true - now it is x1.5 every swing because they changed the effect on hopeless mob. Mind you they halved the mob hp and added x1.5 on element/alignment procs but before you were running off 300% and 400% of your character's hitting power ... now it's 150% instead plus 150% weapon procs. The weapon now becomes increased in more importance than your character's base abilities in that respect.

However, due the way we were doing things pre-u9 placed melee at their top form ... and is funny because it was in fact mostly the caster doing that. After u9 and change of many tactics melee actually do much less than half the damage they did before u9.



I know the DC changes affect Melee, but unless they built a Melee like my Light Monk, Dex based with a whopping 24 Str, they should be doing just fine on Stuns, since their DCs will be a lot higher then even my Stunning Glance, which is Chr based with a 6 Chr and works every single time. My 15th Kensai has a higher Stunning Blow then my Stunning Glance, so really...should NOT be a problem for any well built Melee who's not Dex based :)

Yes, the change to damage while Held/Stunned does affect Melee..but thanks to the loss of HP, the change doesn't really slow them down if they are Str based and well geared..unlike my Light Monk, who must repeatedly stun things to kill them now :) I DO so miss those constant crits on my stunned targets with him, but oh well..we WERE rather rolling through content a bit fast...edging up to Ludicrous speed to be honest. Now the Assassins have time to kill more then 1 Held mob per encounter!

And the reason why I'm against nerfing is simple, nerfs are usually a bad way to fix things. And there's no reason why Casters should be lesser then Melee, they are actually much harder to play, and with the SP restrictions BACK in place, they are rather limited in their total DPS. We haven't seen that in years though, but nerfing casters won't fix the problem with unlimited SP, it'll just annoy everyone who ever plays a Caster.

*edit*
Kitsune Ko..uh..WoP in their CURRENT form are not what we're discussing, we're talking about how they USED to work. NO save, NO resistance, mobs didn't shake off the effects like they do now, and they worked on bosses as well as trash...and 0 Con meant death..actually 0 in any stat meant death. THAT was all changed due to the WoP outbreak, where everyone and their kobold footmen had WoP rapiers and picks and mobs were an endangered species. We literally had people making Dex based Barbs using dual WoP rapiers, it was funny as hells and it was so obviously OP that we all knew a nerf would be coming..not a fix, a nerf.

[Correlan]

Here is the answer, and please repeat after me:
Don't touch my easy button, because it makes scroll farming easy.

Off Topic

Scroll farming was easy way before the changes in U9. U9 didn't change anything regarding that.

On Topic

As a player that has 3 casters and 3 divines, the balance between those and my various melee toons is at this point in time, unbalanced. Although as a guild we've run epic quests without a healer, we haven't run an epic without a caster. Yeah, sure, you could take a healer and bard, but in all pracicality why would you? bards can buff, use fascinate and the epic would take 10 mins longer, but with a well versed arcane, the epic quest is done faster and more effieciently. Is the balance right? maybe, maybe not. Imo, there are other factors that need to be looked at before changing casters again. AI is one of them, changing the mechanic for the way epic items are made is another.

In all honesty, the reason for other threads crying nerf, is because how easy it is to 'Farm for Scrolls' on caster types. Jealousy from melee only Accounts? Who cares, there are issues that need looking at, Maybe one day Turbine will get round to looking at them.

[Emili]

I know the DC changes affect Melee, but unless they built a Melee like my Light Monk, Dex based with a whopping 24 Str, they should be doing just fine on Stuns, since their DCs will be a lot higher then even my Stunning Glance, which is Chr based with a 6 Chr and works every single time. My 15th Kensai has a higher Stunning Blow then my Stunning Glance, so really...should NOT be a problem for any well built Melee who's not Dex based :)

Yes, the change to damage while Held/Stunned does affect Melee..but thanks to the loss of HP, the change doesn't really slow them down if they are Str based and well geared..unlike my Light Monk, who must repeatedly stun things to kill them now :) I DO so miss those constant crits on my stunned targets with him, but oh well..we WERE rather rolling through content a bit fast...edging up to Ludicrous speed to be honest. Now the Assassins have time to kill more then 1 Held mob per encounter!

And the reason why I'm against nerfing is simple, nerfs are usually a bad way to fix things. And there's no reason why Casters should be lesser then Melee, they are actually much harder to play, and with the SP restrictions BACK in place, they are rather limited in their total DPS. We haven't seen that in years though, but nerfing casters won't fix the problem with unlimited SP, it'll just annoy everyone who ever plays a Caster.

*edit*
Kitsune Ko..uh..WoP in their CURRENT form are not what we're discussing, we're talking about how they USED to work. NO save, NO resistance, mobs didn't shake off the effects like they do now, and they worked on bosses as well as trash...and 0 Con meant death..actually 0 in any stat meant death. THAT was all changed due to the WoP outbreak, where everyone and their kobold footmen had WoP rapiers and picks and mobs were an endangered species. We literally had people making Dex based Barbs using dual WoP rapiers, it was funny as hells and it was so obviously OP that we all knew a nerf would be coming..not a fix, a nerf.

I'm sorry ... I was just pointing out the underlined statement is a fallacy.



Non-Casters are just as effective, actually MORE effective in Epics then before, since the mob HPs were lowered. I'm sorry some of you feel that your Melee are no longer useful and are a waste of a slot, but that's YOU, not the game, the game actually made your Melee MORE useful, you just refuse to acknowledge that because you no longer are the BEST way to blast through Epics.

I'm not for caster's getting nerfed but the truth is melee were nerfed by as much as 15% even after considering the mob hp reduction. They land less tacticals they hit much lighter ... crits may seem larger but in actuality over the course of one minute you did far over twice as much damage over a minute under the older rules... this is why even the top str melee even must attempt to stun the same mob again sometimes- they do not enough Pow to kill it when it during the first stun.

I wrestle with this do I wish to drop some other enhancement to grab another 1 or 2 points to tactics? It means I have to give up something else... heal amp? Haste boosts? is not an easy decision.

Are melee effective post u9 - Yes they are. Is the same melee as effective - No they are not.

More melee builds come into scrutiny under the change - people are going to rethink and rebuild many melee to accomodate the changes and they have to specialize even more to gain back areas they lost - as such they also have to give up a few of the little added perk they may have fit in Pre u9 to do so.

I stated for years I wanted the mob returned to prior EU specs as far as AC, saves and a few other things went ... plus I wanted my mob to be formidable - to a party - not just one... I want more of some reasons for your light monk to come, I want a reason for the PM to be there, I want a reason for my bard to be there ... not stating a "must have" this class but a must play team strategy rather than all these flavour of the month builds go by like they have over and over through the years.

Agree or not it is an arcane's world today ... is not so different than blitz, ravager, exploiter, crit barb, batman... well except an arcane always enhanced every group and has always been easilly configured through the years.

Do you know my PM is five years old? Well she was not a PM back then but all it took was the PP to change her enhancements and a couple syberous shards... which I made myself from collecting all these years. A build stands the test of time ... Arcane, Divine - I used to tell my guildies when they gone casual or left the game what to keep for when they came back - you never age on an arcane or a cleric.

[Faent]

If you're not a caster, stop focusing on what they can do and focus on what YOU can do. The fact is that casters and melees are now on much more equal footing than in the past and many of those that play mostly or only melee simply need to get used to it.

This response is no good. Casters and melees are not on equal footing. Casters dominate almost all melees in almost all content these days. Either casters need a nerf or melees need a boost. I prefer the nerf, since playing a caster is like playing this game in god-mode.

True, casters can now get into raid content just as much as melees (or at least, they can if folks know they have adapted to the changes, which many still haven't). That's about the only equal footing that exists between melees and casters. Whether you like it or not, your casters (and my casters) need a nerf. The fun you have playing your caster is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or not casters need a nerf, and that's why this claim of yours makes no sense at all:


Anyhow, GL and please, do stop trying to ruin my fun by prompting Turbine to limit my options again.

[Raithe]

For the record, WoP weapons were never nerfed. They still do exactly what they did years ago, and they work at the same rate per strike they always did.

Things that got nerfed:

1) Stat damage effects, such as 0 CON = death and weakening never being regenerated/healed.

2) Barb crit rage enhancements

3) Stat damage weapon effects on end-game mobs (many/most are now resistant)

4) Rate of attack for many classes

Wounding of puncturing is still a very powerful combination for non-epic content (outside of a few particular quests). The problem is that in epic and several other specific quests, wounding of puncturing is nearly pointless. Their "fix" for the issue was haphazard and lopsided, and a better fix would have been to modify the weapons directly so that content would behave more consistently.

I think the same applies to the current caster issues.

[grgurius]

Seriously wail of the banshee with its long cool down time the fact that you have to know how to round up mobs to even get it to do what it needs to properly. The fact that in a good balanced team it works better then a ton of casters spamming it with its 30 second cool down timer.

Ive read posts to according to some of these uber casters who are asking for the nerfs they go into epics and wail away. Id love to see how that is possible since even on a sorc there is a long enough cool down timer. It was faster pulling a bunch of mobs into a disco or hold and firewalling them down.

Then you add dc's which if your build properly no problem. But see there in lies the issue not ever pale master is dropped from the same graveyard not everyone will max out their spell pen get their dc's high enough to be the kind of caster that can do it all. But when people cry for nerfs behind the few who can it hurts us all as casters. Thats what I am getting at, there is emotional overstating on both sides, only thing is I am not asking for anyone to be scaled back or NERFED. And I **** sure am not going to sit back quietly while someone floods the boards with nerf my favorite classes threads and several of them bemoaning the same things over and over.

Anyone who is good at the game is going to shine, any caster who knows how to kite, heal themselves and blast away will be golden. But I cannot name more them maybe a handful I know personally who can do this I know a ton of melees who get threw content just fine I dont ask for anyone to be nerfed I just play and have fun. Maybe If I start worrying about how fast or easier others get threw content then I will have a reason to ask to nerf anyone but till then Id rather not Id rather enjoy the game and right now that my casters are not one trick ponies I am enjoying it more and more.

I can agree that there is a lot of emotional overstating, people tend to focus on the extreme examples on both sides of the argument. Casters were always a bit on the overpowered side, u9 changes only made that fact a bit more pronounced. Wail of the banshee is only a symptom of the problem.

In one of these "nerf" threads i already stated that i'm against nerfs of any kind, because nerfs tend to cause a lot of collateral damage. But i would still like to see some kind of changes to epics, ever since u5 they are a joke.


Off Topic

Scroll farming was easy way before the changes in U9. U9 didn't change anything regarding that.

On Topic

As a player that has 3 casters and 3 divines, the balance between those and my various melee toons is at this point in time, unbalanced. Although as a guild we've run epic quests without a healer, we haven't run an epic without a caster. Yeah, sure, you could take a healer and bard, but in all pracicality why would you? bards can buff, use fascinate and the epic would take 10 mins longer, but with a well versed arcane, the epic quest is done faster and more effieciently. Is the balance right? maybe, maybe not. Imo, there are other factors that need to be looked at before changing casters again. AI is one of them, changing the mechanic for the way epic items are made is another.

In all honesty, the reason for other threads crying nerf, is because how easy it is to 'Farm for Scrolls' on caster types. Jealousy from melee only Accounts? Who cares, there are issues that need looking at, Maybe one day Turbine will get round to looking at them.

Scroll farming was always easy, now its extremely easy.

As for the rest of your post, well said. +1

[ferrite]

This thread should be renamed to 'plz help caster is stealing my killz' or something silly to that effect. Because that's what seems to be the underlying idea here.

Casters are just fine. Heck I'd even wager that some caster builds need slightly MORE power (specifically the wiz archmage line who seems slightly underpowered atm, but that's just my take on it). The update brought sorcs more in line with what they should have been to begin with, and no issues with the PM, except maybe the god-awful skeleton summons in that class--if you can even call them that, more like dancing mincemeat.

Some players just play casters quite well. Some don't. Simple as that.

[Kriogen]

Well, did some thinking ... maybe I shouldn't?

1. Old-style w/p made arcane casters not required.

My pre-TR wizard/rogue was human with high enough DEX so I could take Improved TWF. I also took Imp Crit:Pierce. Found enough DP clickies. Was no so lucky and only found w/p Dagger and w/p Light Pick. Yes, on the bottom of the w/p food chain.

Oh, no Wail at that time. Cap was 16.

Funny, even with weak gear and build (doh, its a gimp wizzy that wants to be fighter) I noticed that overall kill speed with w/p was as good as Finger of Death. W/p was not insta-kill, but spell has cooldown and sometimes mobs can save. If you'd need to kill many mobs (lets say in Shroud part 1) it was take same average speed. If there was rapier Tempest or crit rage barb in group, it felt like Wail with no save.

In those days I wondered why I bother. My gimp wizzy was, in melee, killing as fast as with magic. And I don't think I was the only 'arcane' thinking why do I exist.

I guess devs listened and gave arcanes a reason to exist. Remove insta-kill from warriors and make it unique to casters.

My main is Caster. I like our new magical overlords :p

But if your main is Warrior, does this sounds familiar?

2. Unique feature of DDO is that insta-kill exists (vorpal, wop, finger, wail, etc). And it will be removed.

Most (all?) MMOs don't have this insta-kill thing. It makes DDO different, more special then other MMOs. Insta-kill in DDO is also the most 'problematic'.

If you look at what happened in the past, devs will remove insta-kill or make it very, very situational. I will not be surprised if one day devs say: Finger of Death is now like Touch of Death. 500 damage, save for half. OK, its 'caster' not monk and cost SPs, lets make it 1000 damage. And if you think i'm smoking something, just remember what happened with vorpal/smite/disrupt/banish. And it's kinda funny, that ability called Touch of Death is not really 'death' but 'damage'. It's also negative energy, very compatible with Finger of Death.

Soon arcane casters be will like in other games. Some buffs and big nuke. Sorcerer more into elemental damage (fire, cold, elec, etc). Wizards more into negative, dark, force, kinetic. Divine (cleric, FvS) some sort of hybrid. A bit elemental (very limited, more like divine fire), some kinetic, negative, positive (heal) and bane/light.

[Truga]

DOOOOoooooOOOOOOmmmmMmm

The day this happens is the day I quit ddo. :P

[Razcar]

Fact: At end game, casters are the most powerful classes at the moment. They are quite much more powerful than melees, and a bit more than divines.

The reasons are these:


Caster pros:

Mass instakills from a safe distance
Mass Crowd Control from a safe distance
Very high single target DPS from a safe distance
High mass DPS from a safe distance
Only one ability score needed (caster stat), rest can be used for convenience (Con)
Easiest and cheapest classes to equip for end game
Self healing
Strong versatility and speed through spells such as DDoor, Haste, Jump etc
Powerful immunities/defenses through their spells

Caster cons

Limited spell points - abundance of shrines and SP pots softens this, and cheap SLA's as well
Limited survivability through low HP and AC - not true at all, casters can easily get more Hit Points than e.g. Specialist due to only having one needed ability score and the abundance of HP items and abilities in DDO. AC is not relevant in end game, what is important for defense are spells such as Blur/Displacement/Stoneskin etc. and Crowd Control, where Casters excel. And most importantly, Casters never need to get into melee distance of opponents.

I think few dispute these points above, except maybe the most fervent Caster apologists.

And these are the most common arguments from those who want Casters to remain overpowered:

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Meeles are jealous.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the question if it is good and fun game design to make Casters dominate. Maybe all melee in existence are so jealous they are about to explode. But that doesn't change the imbalance in the Pro versus Con lists above.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters were weaker before update 9, and should thus dominate now.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the current situation. Even if it was true, two wrongs does not make a right.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters are stronger, but melees should not care about this and mind their own business.
Rebuttal: Since this is a game where you group, if one type dominates at overcoming the quest obstacles it affects the enjoyment of everyone else.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters should be more powerful because they are so in D&D 3.5.
Rebuttal: How Casters function in D&D 3.5 has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Caster should be more powerful because they are so in fiction.
Rebuttal: How arcanists in fiction are depicted has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

[dunklezhan]

Fact: At end game, casters are the most powerful classes at the moment. They are quite much more powerful than melees, and a bit more than divines.

The reasons are these:


Caster pros:

Mass instakills from a safe distance
Mass Crowd Control from a safe distance
Very high single target DPS from a safe distance
High mass DPS from a safe distance
Only one ability scores needed (caster stat), rest can be used for convenience (Con)
Easiest and cheapest classes to equip for end game
Self healing
Strong versatility and speed through spells such as DDoor, Haste, Jump etc
Powerful immunities/defenses through their spells

Caster cons

Limited spell points - abundance of shrines and SP pots softens this, and cheap SLA's as well
Limited survivability through low HP and AC - not true at all, casters can easily get more Hit Points than e.g. Specialist due to only having one needed ability score and the abundance of HP items and abilities in DDO. AC is not relevant in end game, what is important for defense are spells such as Blur/Displacement/Stoneskin etc. and Crowd Control, where Casters excel. And most importantly, Casters never need to get into melee distance of opponents.

I think few dispute these points above, except maybe the most fervent Caster apologists.

And these are the most common arguments from those who want Casters to remain overpowered:

Argument from the arcane protectionist: Meeles are jealous.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the question if it is good and fun game design to make Casters dominate. Maybe all melee in existence are so jealous they are about to explode. But that doesn't change the Pro versus Con points in the lists above.

Argument from the arcane protectionist: Casters were weaker before update 9, and should thus dominate now.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the current situation. Even if it was true, two wrongs does not make a right.

Argument from the arcane protectionist: Casters are stronger, but melees should not care about this and mind their own business.
Rebuttal: Since this is a game where you group, if one type dominates at overcoming the quest obstacles it affects the enjoyment of everyone else.

Argument from the arcane protectionist: Casters should be more powerful because they are so in D&D 3.5.
Rebuttal: How Casters function in D&D 3.5 has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

Argument from the arcane protectionist: Caster should be more powerful because they are so in fiction.
Rebuttal: How arcanists in fiction are depicted has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

Don't dispute any of the above, but would add the following Argument (from me. I play all the classes so I don't consider myself an apologist or supporter! I must come clean and say end game is not my thing however):

Melees should be be asking for a melee buff, not a caster nerf.

Or at least, not much of a caster nerf. Reduced shrines in endgame perhaps. I don't really think anything else is appropriate - it shouldn't be a question of easy, it should be a question of fun. Previously, casters at end game were not fun*. Now they are, and its not because they dominiate, its because they have options instead of being a one trick pony of mass hold & buffs.

Melees need more effective options (e.g. AC should be much more viable than it is without screwing DPS, Melees need better AOE abilities and more effective CC - trips, stuns etc). Casters should be better than melees at some of this, but melees should be better than casters at some of the rest. No single class should be better than others at everything. But that isn't to say 'nerf it' where this is the case. Surely its to say 'buff it' to the others?



*this is my impression from reading the various threads on it over the last couple of years. Again - not really my thing, am not really meaning this as inarguable fact although I know that's how it's written.

[Razcar]

Melees should be be asking for a melee buff, not a caster nerf.

Or at least, not much of a caster nerf. Reduced shrines in endgame perhaps. I don't really think anything else is appropriate - it shouldn't be a question of easy, it should be a question of fun. Previously, casters at end game were not fun*. Now they are, and its not because they dominiate, its because they have options instead of being a one trick pony of mass hold & buffs.

Melees need more effective options (e.g. AC should be much more viable than it is without screwing DPS, Melees need better AOE abilities and more effective CC - trips, stuns etc). Casters should be better than melees at some of this, but melees should be better than casters at some of the rest. No single class should be better than others at everything. But that isn't to say 'nerf it' where this is the case. Surely its to say 'buff it' to the others?
Sure, I agree, good suggestions. First they could start with restoring melee attack speed to the one we had before Update 5. The slowing down of melee combat made it more boring and less visceral and engaging.

Then we need more melee CC options, more defense options, more healing options. For example healing surges from D&D 4.0 could fit in well in DDO. And many more CC options such as Coup de Grace, Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint and Charge for example. For all spells casters get melees should get new abilities and options, too. And melees should be able to get them in another way than one every 3 levels through a precious Feat.

Then the Dragonmark system should be revised and made much cheaper to give access to more spell-like options for non casters.

[Brannigan]

Well, did some thinking ... maybe I shouldn't?

1. Old-style w/p made arcane casters not required.

My pre-TR wizard/rogue was human with high enough DEX so I could take Improved TWF. I also took Imp Crit:Pierce. Found enough DP clickies. Was no so lucky and only found w/p Dagger and w/p Light Pick. Yes, on the bottom of the w/p food chain.

Oh, no Wail at that time. Cap was 16.

Funny, even with weak gear and build (doh, its a gimp wizzy that wants to be fighter) I noticed that overall kill speed with w/p was as good as Finger of Death. W/p was not insta-kill, but spell has cooldown and sometimes mobs can save. If you'd need to kill many mobs (lets say in Shroud part 1) it was take same average speed. If there was rapier Tempest or crit rage barb in group, it felt like Wail with no save.

In those days I wondered why I bother. My gimp wizzy was, in melee, killing as fast as with magic. And I don't think I was the only 'arcane' thinking why do I exist.

I guess devs listened and gave arcanes a reason to exist. Remove insta-kill from warriors and make it unique to casters.

My main is Caster. I like our new magical overlords :p

But if your main is Warrior, does this sounds familiar?

2. Unique feature of DDO is that insta-kill exists (vorpal, wop, finger, wail, etc). And it will be removed.

Most (all?) MMOs don't have this insta-kill thing. It makes DDO different, more special then other MMOs. Insta-kill in DDO is also the most 'problematic'.

If you look at what happened in the past, devs will remove insta-kill or make it very, very situational. I will not be surprised if one day devs say: Finger of Death is now like Touch of Death. 500 damage, save for half. OK, its 'caster' not monk and cost SPs, lets make it 1000 damage. And if you think i'm smoking something, just remember what happened with vorpal/smite/disrupt/banish. And it's kinda funny, that ability called Touch of Death is not really 'death' but 'damage'. It's also negative energy, very compatible with Finger of Death.

Soon arcane casters be will like in other games. Some buffs and big nuke. Sorcerer more into elemental damage (fire, cold, elec, etc). Wizards more into negative, dark, force, kinetic. Divine (cleric, FvS) some sort of hybrid. A bit elemental (very limited, more like divine fire), some kinetic, negative, positive (heal) and bane/light.

Excellent point.

They did nerf insta kill options in the main for melee (even down to the vorpal weapon).

If you look at that as reasoning, then logically casters will get balanced too in some respect.

[Raithe]

Melees should be be asking for a melee buff, not a caster nerf.


My melee characters are not the problem. They work decently in most content, except perhaps my kensei in content where the mobs trip easily and then never get up. Having DCs that hit such high marks unbalances a lot of content, regardless of the DC source.

I want a change to casters so that my sorc has to make decisions about spell usage. I want a change so that blowing things up is not always the best choice. I want a change so that I don't feel like I'm supposed to "tank" and instakill on my caster when she wasn't designed for that. I want a change so that taking 4 casters into a quest is actually a risk rather than an auto-complete.

This is not a melee vs. caster issue.

[Chai]

My melee characters are not the problem. They work decently in most content, except perhaps my kensei in content where the mobs trip easily and then never get up. Having DCs that hit such high marks unbalances a lot of content, regardless of the DC source.

I want a change to casters so that my sorc has to make decisions about spell usage. I want a change so that blowing things up is not always the best choice. I want a change so that I don't feel like I'm supposed to "tank" and instakill on my caster when she wasn't designed for that. I want a change so that taking 4 casters into a quest is actually a risk rather than an auto-complete.

This is not a melee vs. caster issue.

Ahhh but it IS a melee -vs- caster issue for many of those asking for the nerfs. How then do you explain that no one said a thing about casters being overpowered by being able to heal themselves for 4+ years, which is what REALLY makes them OP. Casters are supposed to be highest DPS. Casters are supposed to CC well, and have good defensive buffs. Its the self healing that is out of line, and I think you will find that if self healing for casters was removed, you would get your wish. Taking 4 casters into a quest would be a risk and not necessarily autocomplete. The majority of the exagerators would not get their wish though, because their blizt builds would not be on top again.

If this is solely about casters, why then did we not see all these "casters are OP" discussions previous to U9 allowing most of their abilities to be used? The answer is transparent of course. This is what you say it isnt - a melee -vs- caster debate, thinly veiled, but it still is nonetheless. If it was not, we would have had this conversation 3.5 years ago about casters being OP due to self healing. People didnt ask for this to be nerfed, right up to and until casters took their rightful spot as top end DPS and trash mob killers, and now the exagerators are complaining that melee is useless because casters are better.

Also of note what being asked for by the majority of the nerf supporters is a caster offense nerf, which makes their request even MORE transparent. Understanding what makes casters in this game OP, they should be asking for a self healing nerf, but that doesnt solve the issue they REALLY want solved, which is their khopesh swinging half orc is no longer on top of the DPS builds for this game. Take their healing away, and casters become the glass cannons they were designed to be, with the best offense in the game, and having to rely on good tactics + healing from other classes to stay alive.

[phum]

Fact: At end game, casters are the most powerful classes at the moment. They are quite much more powerful than melees, and a bit more than divines.

The reasons are these:


Caster pros:

Mass instakills from a safe distance
Mass Crowd Control from a safe distance
Very high single target DPS from a safe distance
High mass DPS from a safe distance
Only one ability score needed (caster stat), rest can be used for convenience (Con)
Easiest and cheapest classes to equip for end game
Self healing
Strong versatility and speed through spells such as DDoor, Haste, Jump etc
Powerful immunities/defenses through their spells

Caster cons

Limited spell points - abundance of shrines and SP pots softens this, and cheap SLA's as well
Limited survivability through low HP and AC - not true at all, casters can easily get more Hit Points than e.g. Specialist due to only having one needed ability score and the abundance of HP items and abilities in DDO. AC is not relevant in end game, what is important for defense are spells such as Blur/Displacement/Stoneskin etc. and Crowd Control, where Casters excel. And most importantly, Casters never need to get into melee distance of opponents.

I think few dispute these points above, except maybe the most fervent Caster apologists.

And these are the most common arguments from those who want Casters to remain overpowered:

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Meeles are jealous.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the question if it is good and fun game design to make Casters dominate. Maybe all melee in existence are so jealous they are about to explode. But that doesn't change the imbalance in the Pro versus Con lists above.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters were weaker before update 9, and should thus dominate now.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the current situation. Even if it was true, two wrongs does not make a right.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters are stronger, but melees should not care about this and mind their own business.
Rebuttal: Since this is a game where you group, if one type dominates at overcoming the quest obstacles it affects the enjoyment of everyone else.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters should be more powerful because they are so in D&D 3.5.
Rebuttal: How Casters function in D&D 3.5 has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

Argument from the arcane protectionists: Caster should be more powerful because they are so in fiction.
Rebuttal: How arcanists in fiction are depicted has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

Good post. Well thought out and concise. Imo originally the problems arise from not implementing initiative in any way (maybe biggest reason why casters have only 1 stat + con) and out of control power creep. Nothing you can do about those, but many of the symptoms can be treated.

[Raithe]

Ahhh but it IS a melee -vs- caster issue for many of those asking for the nerfs.


Possibly. It isn't for me, and if you want to address my arguments you'll counter by making that assumption. NOT making that assumption will most likely invalidate your argument due to it working off from a completely different premise than the one my arguments are based on.



How then do you explain that no one said a thing about casters being overpowered by being able to heal themselves for 4+ years, which is what REALLY makes them OP.


Its funny, cause I don't remember you from 4+ years ago. What's even funnier is that 2-3 years ago, I had several long discourses about AC and survivability on the forums that often talked about caster self-healing and survivability as a serious issue with game design. Other related topics included scroll and consumable availability (I was for reducing it), UMD effectiveness (I was for lowering it), and healing in general (I wanted it to have less impact on game success).



If this is solely about casters, why then did we not see all these "casters are OP" discussions previous to U9 allowing most of their abilities to be used?


Because people had largely given up? As I've already mentioned, the topic has been beaten to death. We have yet to approach even a small fraction of the outrage that was Mod 5 of DDO: Stormreach. You know, the quests that could be solo'd easily on any firewall-wielding caster, where melee had to fight incorporeal crit-resistant mobs that often imposed negative levels or strength damage?



People didnt ask for this to be nerfed, right up to and until casters took their rightful spot as top end DPS and trash mob killers, and now the exagerators are complaining that melee is useless because casters are better.


Casters have always been the best trash killers. Whether they used mass holds and firewall or they simply turned everything to stone, or they nuked with death spells. There has never been a time in DDO history where the best trash killer in the game was not some sort of caster.

I don't think anyone cared that much either. This is not about casters simply being the best trash killers anymore. As other people have brought forward, they are also often the best defense-oriented characters and the best boss killers.

The game is simply completely out-of-wack. How it gets balanced is less important at this stage than it achieving some sort of balance at all. If you have particular suggestions for how you would lower caster self-healing and survivability at this late date, I'd be making them, cause most of us have no clue what you are even getting at.

[Postumus]

There is a balance problem, and you tell people to solve it by ignoring the things that cause the problem?

There is no balance problem. This really just sounds like envy.

[Chai]

Fact: At end game, casters are the most powerful classes at the moment. They are quite much more powerful than melees, and a bit more than divines.

The reasons are these:

Yeap, lets go through these one at a time, shall we?


Mass instakills from a safe distance

So we now consider the middle of 8 heavy hitting mobs "safe distance"?


Mass Crowd Control from a safe distance

The only option they had to build for pre U9 - I dont see too many people arguing too much for or against this.


Very high single target DPS from a safe distance

The whole "safe distance" arguement falls apart at end game when we are talking about mobs that can teleport right on top of you and who can also toss 600 point disintegrates at you.


High mass DPS from a safe distance

The whole "safe distance" arguement falls apart at end game when we are talking about mobs that can teleport right on top of you and who can also toss 600 point disintegrates at you.


Only one ability score needed (caster stat), rest can be used for convenience (Con)

Versus what? Pure melee like fighters and barbs running around with 70-90 str and 50 + con, with a stat in the low teens on every other number?


Easiest and cheapest classes to equip for end game

Hardly. They have just as many slots as everyone else, and epic gear is a seal, shard, scroll, and item for every epic item. Torcs dont grow on trees. Eardwellers have to be farmed just like anything else. Casters have epic sets just as melee do.


Self healing

This is my dog in this fight. Self healing is what makes casters OP. They wouldnt be able to do all the stuff they do with impunity without it, without a healer to keep them propped up.


Strong versatility and speed through spells such as DDoor, Haste, Jump etc

Other classes get those as well. This isnt caster exclusive.


Powerful immunities/defenses through their spells

Immune to what exactly? DR yes, immune, no. There are RACES with more immunities than casters have.


Argument from the arcane protectionists: Meeles are jealous.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the question if it is good and fun game design to make Casters dominate. Maybe all melee in existence are so jealous they are about to explode. But that doesn't change the imbalance in the Pro versus Con lists above.

The only thing imbalanced is the self healing aspect. Casters are supposed to be top offense. Remove their self healing and they become the glass cannons they are in all other D&D games, having to rely on melee to draw the mobs attention and divine for healing.


Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters were weaker before update 9, and should thus dominate now.
Rebuttal: This has nothing to do with the current situation. Even if it was true, two wrongs does not make a right.

It has everything to do with it, because the exagerators are saying melee is useless, however, what we observe is much more of a level playing field then before when casters werent wanted in groups unless they were CC specced. We can make that comparison and it has everything to do with it. Melee are still invited to groups as they used to be. Being able to make this comparison, we clearly see the in game player reaction toward melee due to to casters being more powerful is not nearly as terrible as the in game reaction toward casters when melee was the accepted formula. The situation has gotten BETTER, and is not wrong for doing so.


Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters are stronger, but melees should not care about this and mind their own business.
Rebuttal: Since this is a game where you group, if one type dominates at overcoming the quest obstacles it affects the enjoyment of everyone else..

Funny that you werent saying this back when melee was stronger and casters were being told to mind their own business. :p This is a two way street.


Argument from the arcane protectionists: Casters should be more powerful because they are so in D&D 3.5.
Rebuttal: How Casters function in D&D 3.5 has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

False. D&D is what separates DDO from the other cookie cutter MMO clones, and in many cases, the differences between DDO (due to D&D) and other MMOS is the exact reason why people choose to play DDO in the first place. If we start casting aside the spirit of D&D as it relates to DDO, so too do we cast aside any distinction this game has versus its WOW clone counterparts.


Argument from the arcane protectionists: Caster should be more powerful because they are so in fiction.
Rebuttal: How arcanists in fiction are depicted has nothing to do with the enjoyment for everyone in this computer game.

Flase again. People play this game and relate to it through a number of influences through fiction they are fans of. The expectation people have is that of their influences, especially in a game that bears the same name as those influences. Delving away from those expectations makes it less fun for many fans of the literature which surrounds the D&D games, due to the expectations this developes. Nothing to do with it? I disagree.

As a business, what your customers expect has EVERYTHING to do with their enjoyment during their play experience. It makes perfect sense that their expectations will be derived mostly from Dungeons and Dragons, as we are playing Dungeons and Dragons online, after all.

[Truga]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Chai again. :(

[Postumus]

Fact: At end game, casters are the most powerful classes at the moment. They are quite much more powerful than melees, and a bit more than divines.

The reasons are these:




Actually, there are two MAIN reason casters are the most powerful class:

1- they can self-heal.

2- Spells that cause damage don't affect party members.

Low HP has always been the Achilles heel for magic based classes in almost every game. That's the trade off for such incredible power. But while allowing arcanes to heal themselves makes them better able to solo, it unbalances the power dynamic when players group.


The ability for a party members to be immune to friendly fire from AoE's like ice storm & wall of fire is understandable to prevent griefing, but it allows casters to spam spells in a way they could never do in PnP. Even in games like Dragon Age: Origins, your mage's spells can freeze you or stun you if you are in the AoE.

I wouldn't mind if AoEs actually affected party members, but I'm sure most of the DDO community would have a fit.


Rather than nerfing casters, I think there needs to be more monsters and situations where magic isn't the most effective option. Anti-magic traps (which would make trap monkeys more valuable as well), mana leeching areas, casters that actually use globe of invulnerability, mobs that actually try to protect themselves by running away from AoE... suddenly you need those ranged characters or melees who can go in, corner the mobs avoiding the ice storms, and beat them down.





Rebuttal: Since this is a game where you group, if one type dominates at overcoming the quest obstacles itaffects the enjoyment of everyone else.

That's not a logical deduction at all.

In this game you aren't FORCED to group with anyone, and you have total control over which players and which classes you choose to group with. People filter out classes from their groups all the time b/c they are 'gimp' or 'not dps' or 'need healer' or whatever. It's just as easy to filter out classes you think are too powerful from your groups.

[Raithe]

As a business, what your customers expect has EVERYTHING to do with their enjoyment during their play experience. It makes perfect sense that their expectations will be derived mostly from Dungeons and Dragons, as we are playing Dungeons and Dragons online, after all.

My expectations for this game hardly have anything to do with my D&D PnP experience, and while there was a time when I expected roleplaying and D&D-like storytelling to be a focus of development for this game, that time has long since gone.

Even D&D, however, has a balance to its quests and stories that keeps a diverse party makeup useful if not outright necessary. The mechanics being completely wide open and full of different motives, situations, and applicable tactics are probably the greatest sources of balance that D&D has, which DDO does not. To top it off, many of the current customer base are actually against game design that promotes balanced group makeups, because they want casters to be able to solo content, they just want their melee to be "beneficial."

As for this topic never being broached before, here is a thread from 2007 discussing the topic. My post is #49:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=110495&page=3&highlight=Casters+powerful

[Taluron]

Wounding of Puncturing, WoP, was a super effective and rather overlooked weapon property that was originally found ONLY on Pierce damage type weapons, Rapiers, Shortswords, Picks, Bows and Daggers(all I can think of offhand). They drain 1 Con on every hit and 1-6 on every crit.

Just to clarify:

Wounding is a propery (prefix) that does 1 CON damage per hit
Punturing is a separate property (suffix) that does 1-6 CON on a crit (in DDO, in PnP it is different)


In Pen and Paper, the WoP is an extremely powerful and potent thing..and you'll NEVER see a decent GM let an entire group of players get 2 WoP rapiers EACH, said group would be lucky to ever actually get ONE of those weapons total among the entire group, they are simply that powerful in PnP..and were in DDO as well...

One thing - in PnP Puncturing only worked 3/day. And no Rest Shrines to reset the day.
In DDO it procs on every crit. Much more powerful in DDO.

[Chai]

My expectations for this game hardly has anything to do with my D&D PnP experience, and while there was a time when I expected roleplaying and D&D-like storytelling to be a focus of development for this game, that time has long since gone.

Even D&D, however, has a balance to its quest and stories that keeps a diverse party makeup useful if not outright necessary. The mechanics being completely wide open and full of different motives, situations, and applicable tactics are probably the greatest sources of balance that D&D has, which DDO does not. To top it off, many of the current customer base are actually against game design that promotes balanced group makeups, because they want casters to be able to solo content, they just want their melee to be "beneficial."

As for this topic never being broached before, here is a thread from 2007 discussing the topic. My post is #49:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=110495&page=3&highlight=Casters+powerful

I do like the fact that your view point extends far beyond the majority of melee angst, and also doesnt contain the high level of exageration (melee are totally useless zomg!!!) I see from many people requesting a nerf to caster offense.

That being said however, I still feel self healing, and not offense, is what makes casters OP to the point where they dont need to cooperate with a group mentality. The great source of balance D&D has regarding this issue is that casters cant heal themselves on a whim unless they are specifically prepared for it, and even then, its limited to a few times per day.

People are still asking for offense based nerfs, when casters being OP has more to do with self healing then offense, and theres only one reason for that.

[Chai]

One thing - in PnP Puncturing only worked 3/day. And no Rest Shrines to reset the day.
In DDO it procs on every crit. Much more powerful in DDO.

And in PnP, the DM throws 4 encounters at you per day, then evaluates your resources to determine if the party can handle a 5th encounter before resting.

This would be like walking into waterworks, killing the first ambush, disarming the trap, killing the ambush right after the fire trap, then killing the hall way fight to the first room, then killing the spiders in the first room, then resting.

Sounds about right to me. Still more powerful in DDO, but not by a huge margin. The higher CR the mob is, the more powerful WoP gets. In DDO epics we fight CR 38 mobs. Wounding is a prefix that does 19 damage per hit in that situation if we uncapped its potential. That makes holy burst look like masterwork, heh. It also lowers fort save by 1 every other hit. Sending a couple rangers in to WoP some mobs up followed by a rogue using assassinate or a wizard using FoD increased the probability of success for those things to work in many situations where the DC of those death effects was within the D20.

[Truga]

My expectations for this game hardly has anything to do with my D&D PnP experience, and while there was a time when I expected roleplaying and D&D-like storytelling to be a focus of development for this game, that time has long since gone.

Even D&D, however, has a balance to its quests and stories that keeps a diverse party makeup useful if not outright necessary. The mechanics being completely wide open and full of different motives, situations, and applicable tactics are probably the greatest sources of balance that D&D has, which DDO does not. To top it off, many of the current customer base are actually against game design that promotes balanced group makeups, because they want casters to be able to solo content, they just want their melee to be "beneficial."

As for this topic never being broached before, here is a thread from 2007 discussing the topic. My post is #49:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=110495&page=3&highlight=Casters+powerful

What's funny is, the argument is still exactly the same: Some casters know their deal, and can handle everything, while most (mostly casuals, they usually don't come to forums) can barely stretch their SP from shrine to shrine. You can see a post of reason every now and there in there, saying "what about those of us who don't have everything/don't know the quests yet".

This is still the issue here. Someone just starting epics shouldn't have major issues thanks to people that know every encounter and exactly how to play through it most efficiently. The dudes that do that should get harder content instead. Of course, this is also what makes "power creep" an issue. Items from said harder content then trivialize the previous harder content, etc.

Fake edit: Maybe what we need is random dungeons + encounters? :P

[Lissyl]

Fake edit: Maybe what we need is random dungeons + encounters? :P

Plus roaming bosses, 'guest appearance' bosses (oh look! Suulomades AND Malicia, having tea!), random traps that do unchristly damage, and 'effect' weaponry on more mobs. Antimagic fields, DR1000, and assassinate mobs.

If people want to complain about balance, the ONLY way to do it is to make every role a requirement.

[phum]

What's funny is, the argument is still exactly the same: Some casters know their deal, and can handle everything, while most (mostly casuals, they usually don't come to forums) can barely stretch their SP from shrine to shrine. You can see a post of reason every now and there in there, saying "what about those of us who don't have everything/don't know the quests yet".

This is still the issue here. Someone just starting epics shouldn't have major issues thanks to people that know every encounter and exactly how to play through it most efficiently. The dudes that do that should get harder content instead. Of course, this is also what makes "power creep" an issue. Items from said harder content then trivialize the previous harder content, etc.

Fake edit: Maybe what we need is random dungeons + encounters? :P

You are right about the powercreep origin, and the suggestion of random dungeons or encounters is great, but improbable in existing content. I'd really love to see something like that for new content^^

However, while I agree that "casual casters" or how ever they are called, do not yet know their ropes too well, I'm certain they will, if enough time passes and no changes are made. What then happens is, that the casual melees will begin to c the difference. No1 knows how long it will take, but.. they will have no answer and there will not be ropes for them to learn. Other than to tr/multiple lr/gr and/or come here. To the forums:) Tanks will almost always have some role in at least some content, but melee dps that can't tank...

God it makes me feel stupid saying that stuff again. I hate to repeat myself even if it's in another thread (at least I hope it is, too many of these around^^):D But your suggestion is good^^

[Kalari]

Actually, there are two MAIN reason casters are the most powerful class:

1- they can self-heal.

2- Spells that cause damage don't affect party members.

Low HP has always been the Achilles heel for magic based classes in almost every game. That's the trade off for such incredible power. But while allowing arcanes to heal themselves makes them better able to solo, it unbalances the power dynamic when players group.


The ability for a party members to be immune to friendly fire from AoE's like ice storm & wall of fire is understandable to prevent griefing, but it allows casters to spam spells in a way they could never do in PnP. Even in games like Dragon Age: Origins, your mage's spells can freeze you or stun you if you are in the AoE.

I wouldn't mind if AoEs actually affected party members, but I'm sure most of the DDO community would have a fit.


Rather than nerfing casters, I think there needs to be more monsters and situations where magic isn't the most effective option. Anti-magic traps (which would make trap monkeys more valuable as well), mana leeching areas, casters that actually use globe of invulnerability, mobs that actually try to protect themselves by running away from AoE... suddenly you need those ranged characters or melees who can go in, corner the mobs avoiding the ice storms, and beat them down.




That's not a logical deduction at all.

In this game you aren't FORCED to group with anyone, and you have total control over which players and which classes you choose to group with. People filter out classes from their groups all the time b/c they are 'gimp' or 'not dps' or 'need healer' or whatever. It's just as easy to filter out classes you think are too powerful from your groups.

These are good ideas Postumus and seriously thats all I am saying I can ignore casters are over powered whine threads most of the time but too many "nerf" threads have come about I am not about nerfing anything at all. I have felt nerfs on my melees which made me sore but I moved on. Casters are my favorite class instead of trying to make them do less why not put more challenges in. I have said a few times on the boards how id love to see anti magic type creatures or creatures who cannot be affected by any kind of magical properties (there were some from baldur's gate name escapes me) we had to use plain ole weapons to damage them and masterwork it was a blast.

Stuff like that seems like a better answer then to nerf anyone but oh no instead people are getting on griping about easy buttons but want those easy buttons their way. They are saying well its more efficient to run this way but it shouldnt be..well who is forcing them to? And this vocal amount don't realize because of the way they are running it may hurt casters who do not run that way. So yeah I get really annoyed with threads like these who call on things being over powered and asking even in a sly way for nerfs. Casters are not like wop's if we were wed have been nurtured a long time ago.

[dunklezhan]

My melee characters are not the problem. They work decently in most content, except perhaps my kensei in content where the mobs trip easily and then never get up. Having DCs that hit such high marks unbalances a lot of content, regardless of the DC source.

I want a change to casters so that my sorc has to make decisions about spell usage. I want a change so that blowing things up is not always the best choice. I want a change so that I don't feel like I'm supposed to "tank" and instakill on my caster when she wasn't designed for that. I want a change so that taking 4 casters into a quest is actually a risk rather than an auto-complete.

This is not a melee vs. caster issue.

All fair points.

I suppose the main point of my post was just that I don't understand why it's always about spreading the pain instead of the joy. Its always jealousy and a desire to bring people down to your perceived level instead of fighting to get yourself up. Drives me nuts.

[Razcar]

Yeap, lets go through these one at a time, shall we? .
Lets.

Or we could just dismiss your post as searching high and low for small details to nitpick at while refusing to see the whole picture? No, let's not let you get away that easily. :)



So we now consider the middle of 8 heavy hitting mobs "safe distance"?
Nitpicking to try to obscure the main issue. My point here is that casters can instakill large groups of opponents without having to touch them, like a melee would have to do to kill the same amount, one after one. "Safe distance" is not an exact measurement, and I see why you attack that - since that is all you have. :rolleyes:

Can melees/specialists do this? No, they cannot. So it's a great shiny "pro" for casters. How safe "safe distance" is, is of course not the point.



The only option they had to build for pre U9 - I dont see too many people arguing too much for or against this. I'm sorry? Is it a large advantage for Casters not shared by melees? Why, yes it is. What was your argument?



The whole "safe distance" arguement falls apart at end game when we are talking about mobs that can teleport right on top of you and who can also toss 600 point disintegrates at you.
No, it does not fall apart: Caster's attacks are almost all ranged. Would you agree that it is generally safer to attack an opponent from a distance than have to always be up in its face? I'm sure there's exceptions, and you found one. Yay. But sadly, one swallow does not not make a summer, as we say here. Generally it is safer to range - agree?



The whole "safe distance" arguement falls apart at end game when we are talking about mobs that can teleport right on top of you and who can also toss 600 point disintegrates at you. Please see above how this advantage of casting classes is not what's falling apart here at all.



Versus what? Pure melee like fighters and barbs running around with 70-90 str and 50 + con, with a stat in the low teens on every other number?Yes, THF Barbarians and THF Fighters have the same advantage. That's nice for them.

TWF Barbarians, TWF Fighters, Rogues, Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Monks however, do not. So this point is an advantage of two additional builds as well, besides casters. Great - but I never said it was exclusive to casters now, did I?



Hardly. They have just as many slots as everyone else, and epic gear is a seal, shard, scroll, and item for every epic item. Torcs dont grow on trees. Eardwellers have to be farmed just like anything else. Casters have epic sets just as melee do.
No, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect here as well. The "equipment" of casters is mainly their spells, and they are not scarce. Then you need to augment the effect of them, which is not hard at all.

Of course you can deck out your casters in all kinds of Epic and high-end gear, and many do, since it is so very easy to solo farm Epic quests with casters. But you don't need to. You can do 500 easy DPS on a raid boss with a sorc with only a Superior Potency VI scepter, all fight long. Please tell me how to do this on a melee with only one ML 14 random loot weapon.

Yes, to completely clean out Epic quests in 10 minutes without even breaking a nail a caster needs more than Superior Potency VI. Even past lifes. But sadly, scarcely anyone else than casters has a chance of doing this feat at all, regardless of how many past lives they have.



This is my dog in this fight. Self healing is what makes casters OP. They wouldnt be able to do all the stuff they do with impunity without it, without a healer to keep them propped up. Well yes.



Other classes get those as well. This isnt caster exclusive.Yes, Bards have Dimension Door and Haste too, and you can even spend UMD a DD scroll if you find one. Is it still a large advantage for Casters to be able to use these abilities how they want? Yes.



Immune to what exactly? DR yes, immune, no. There are RACES with more immunities than casters have.Ah, maybe a bad choice of words. Immunity to some effects, resistance to some more. Less than divines, more than melee with a few exceptions (Rangers etc) So it is a pro of Casters compared to most melee.



The only thing imbalanced is the self healing aspect. Casters are supposed to be top offense. Remove their self healing and they become the glass cannons they are in all other D&D games, having to rely on melee to draw the mobs attention and divine for healing.
There are many ways to try to balance Caster dominance, and I think this is one good one. Introducing Touch Attacks and To Hit rolls for all ray attacks - like in D&D - is another one I fancy.



It has everything to do with it, because the exagerators are saying melee is useless, however, what we observe is much more of a level playing field then before when casters werent wanted in groups unless they were CC specced. We can make that comparison and it has everything to do with it. Melee are still invited to groups as they used to be. Being able to make this comparison, we clearly see the in game player reaction toward melee due to to casters being more powerful is not nearly as terrible as the in game reaction toward casters when melee was the accepted formula. The situation has gotten BETTER, and is not wrong for doing so. Seems you misunderstood this one. An argument from the super heroes is that it's just and fair that Casters should dominate now, because they felt they didn't do so before.

It is like saying that if Billy was bullied in school, he has a right to bully others when he's grown up. It was wrong that Billy was bullied, but that doesn't give Billy the right to do the same to others when the tables have turned. Both were wrong. (Now, I'm saying that Casters have been the most powerful for a long time, but please see below.)



Funny that you werent saying this back when melee was stronger and casters were being told to mind their own business. :p This is a two way street. There was a need to make Casters more versatile in Epic questing (when they weren't soloing). In most other situations Casters have dominated for years. The solution to the "casters-in-Epic-groups" wasn't to make them more powerful in all situations, but that's what the devs did.



False. D&D is what separates DDO from the other cookie cutter MMO clones, and in many cases, the differences between DDO (due to D&D) and other MMOS is the exact reason why people choose to play DDO in the first place. If we start casting aside the spirit of D&D as it relates to DDO, so too do we cast aside any distinction this game has versus its WOW clone counterparts. False on yourself, buttercup. D&D 3.5 is not a perfect PnP game. It has several large flaws. Caster's utter dominance at high levels is one. Since we do not have a DM in DDO that can adjust the campaign to make other classes have fun too, we need Turbine to do that.



Flase again. People play this game and relate to it through a number of influences through fiction they are fans of. The expectation people have is that of their influences, especially in a game that bears the same name as those influences. Delving away from those expectations makes it less fun for many fans of the literature which surrounds the D&D games, due to the expectations this developes. Nothing to do with it? I disagree..
No Chai, since this is not a film, not a book, not even a PnP game.

What is it? It's a computer game. It is a computer game that is made to be played in group (yes, not required to). And a computer game works under completely different premises than a film, a book or a PnP campaign does.

While it is cool in Lord of the Rings to have Gandalf kick a Balrog's behind while the rest can do nothing but watch, it is not exciting, nor fun, to stand and watch the equivalent in DDO. And before you start to nitpick again, I should say: no, there are no balrogs or Gandalfs in DDO, per se. It was meant to illustrate a point.

And my main point, in case it was unclear, was that Casters have many very, very powerful pros and very few cons. This I find is a little lopsided. And that's that.

[Razcar]

That's not a logical deduction at all.

In this game you aren't FORCED to group with anyone, and you have total control over which players and which classes you choose to group with. People filter out classes from their groups all the time b/c they are 'gimp' or 'not dps' or 'need healer' or whatever. It's just as easy to filter out classes you think are too powerful from your groups.
Of course it is. If there is an elephant in your hallway there's an elephant in your hallway. You trying to squeeze past under it while trying to ignore the fact doesn't make it less of a problem (unless you like having elephants indoors, of course).

[Chai]

Or we could just dismiss your post as searching high and low for small details to nitpick at while refusing to see the whole picture? No, let's not let you get away that easily. :)

Thias is right where I should have stopped reading, because it where the debate stops and the personal garbage begins. Because in order to even have a point, you have to dismiss my points as irrelevant, when they clearly are not to the majority of the user base. You are also accusing someone who disagrees with you of not getting it and not seeing the total picture, which is pretty formulaic and well rehearsed as far as argumentation goes around these parts. No Razcar, in a business atmosphere, you cannot plaintively dismiss customer expectation simply because it doesnt support your opinion, and then expect to maintain a successful customer base. When that customer expectation is based on D&D lore and fiction, you either feed that to them, or you call your game something else.


And my main point, in case it was unclear, was that Casters have many very, very powerful pros and very few cons. This I find is a little lopsided. And that's that.

And my point is that there is only one reason why people are PO'd about this now when casters have been overpowered for 4+ years now. Its very transparent indeed. Their cookie cutter khopesh weilding half orcs are no longer telling casters to prop up their melee DPS with mass holds or not to join their groups.

Casters are OP because of their ability to self heal. Take that away, and they have to rely on melee to grab the mobs attention and divine to heal them when damaged.

But that doesnt solve the REAL issue here does it? Because it doesnt put melee back on top of the trash kills and boss DPS. This is the ONLY reason to ask for a caster OFFENSE nerf when it is their SELF HEALING which makes them the most OP in the first place.

So your wish could be granted by giving casters more "cons" bringing them in line with how they were designed in D&D, to be the best offense and have paltry healing, if any. That wont stop all this transparent complaining though.

And I'll add one more thing. Have we not figured out by now that nerf requests end result is not as good as what we even previously had, which is what we complained about in the first place? How many times do we have to go through the cycle before we STOP_ASKING_FOR_NERFS??!! LOL. People will moan that casters are too powerful until the nerf bat gets swung, and it will be the SAME PEOPLE complaining about the nerfs afterward. Mark my words on this, Ive been right on it quite a few times in the past.

[ferrite]

I think the only melees complaining about this (and thus doling out neg rep to dissenters) are the ones who can't seem to figure out how to left-click properly. And attempting to tie-in caster power with WoPs and force a comparison seems slightly nefarious and manipulative to me, in as much as valid arguments go. There's simply no comparison here at all, nor worthwhile argument.

Instead of being unbalanced, I would offer that its far MORE balanced now than it ever was. Since most parties are made up of mostly melee, casters typically took a back seat or performed more specialist roles in a party, like buffs, cc and softening bosses up. Now, casters can take a primary role in the battle along with melee, who before the rebalancing stole most of the limelight.

Need a tissue?

[Aashrym]

Thias is right where I should have stopped reading, because it where the debate stops and the personal garbage begins. Because in order to even have a point, you have to dismiss my points as irrelevant, when they clearly are not to the majority of the user base. You are also accusing someone who disagrees with you of not getting it and not seeing the total picture, which is pretty formulaic and well rehearsed as far as argumentation goes around these parts. No Razcar, in a business atmosphere, you cannot plaintively dismiss customer expectation simply because it doesnt support your opinion, and then expect to maintain a successful customer base. When that customer expectation is based on D&D lore and fiction, you either feed that to them, or you call your game something else.



And my point is that there is only one reason why people are PO'd about this now when casters have been overpowered for 4+ years now. Its very transparent indeed. Their cookie cutter khopesh weilding half orcs are no longer telling casters to prop up their melee DPS with mass holds or not to join their groups.

Casters are OP because of their ability to self heal. Take that away, and they have to rely on melee to grab the mobs attention and divine to heal them when damaged.

But that doesnt solve the REAL issue here does it? Because it doesnt put melee back on top of the trash kills and boss DPS. This is the ONLY reason to ask for a caster OFFENSE nerf when it is their SELF HEALING which makes them the most OP in the first place.

So your wish could be granted by giving casters more "cons" bringing them in line with how they were designed in D&D, to be the best offense and have paltry healing, if any. That wont stop all this transparent complaining though.

And I'll add one more thing. Have we not figured out by now that nerf requests end result is not as good as what we even previously had, which is what we complained about in the first place? How many times do we have to go through the cycle before we STOP_ASKING_FOR_NERFS??!! LOL. People will moan that casters are too powerful until the nerf bat gets swung, and it will be the SAME PEOPLE complaining about the nerfs afterward. Mark my words on this, Ive been right on it quite a few times in the past.

Taking away a caster ability for self healing is a nerf. Reducing the opportunity to replenish the SP is an environmental control that might still be an indirect nerf but it has less impact on the actual game play for the players who enjoy those classes. We really cannot take self healing away from FvS players using divine punishment, blade barrier, and implosion anyway.

We see the same issues. Some casters have too much on the go because they are not glass cannons.

I am not for big direct nerfs. SP management is more appropriate. I also think we could stand some better incentive to not zerg DA on casters to gather more targets for efficiency.

Some spells could be adjusted. I think a 5th level spell should not be superior to higher level spells for direct single target damage. Adding a limit to the number of targets for wail of 1 per 3 casters levels sounds good too; I can see hitting up to 7 with bonuses not bad but I would be fine with a fixed number as high as 8.

I am in favor of changes made to AI (that sounds easier said than done for some reason).

I am in favor of improvements to melee. Not to make the abilities on par with SP abilities, but to make them a bit better. I have mentioned whirlwind attack before. Make the chain worth taking. Increase defensive options for shields and increase mob damage. Adjust items that provide hit points to provide them based bab or class so the difference in hp is more substantial (this might impact some classes as a minor nerf when they lose maybe 20-40 hp). Things like that to make the melee role benefits more realistic in actual game play.

HP, bab, and armor are not enough.

[KristovK]

Chai, we agree on the self healing aspect when it comes to Arcanes, that definately makes them a bit more powerful then they are in PnP. But the REAL issue isn't their ability to self heal, it's their infinite SP which gives them infinite DPS.

That old thread Raithe pointed out is from when we had ALL spells on scrolls at the vendors, and I mean ALL of them. There was a change to the game at the time that removed a number of scrolls from the game, like DDoor, Cloudkill, and some others that were being rampantly abused by the playerbase. Funny thing is, it wasn't CASTERS doing it, it was everyone ELSE doing it. THAT change cost DDO an actual noticable amount of it's paying customer base, because suddenly all the high UMD builds running around, bypassing all the content and abusing scrolls left and right COULDN'T anymore. Literally, people quit the game because an obvious exploit had been closed. The thread itself even discusses the fact that many people considered it a given that any Caster would have stacks of scrolls on hand at all times to avoid using SP because you could buy ANY spell in the game on a scroll from a vendor. Casters were powerful enough because of that, no need to make them more powerful, just buy more scrolls!

Without the scrolls, Casters were using more SP and running out much faster, so SP was upped a bit. And we had gotten SP replenishing items too, don't forget that! Torc..SP pots..Ring of Spell Storing..all added in right before they removed the scrolls. Hard as hell to find, no Epic back the either, and no Shroud, so making ConOpp wasn't on the table yet, and NO TP Store to buy SP pots from, so the infinite SP issue wasn't showing up...but it's entrance was being heralded.

NOW...SP..who cares, got ConOpp items, got a Torc, Twisted Talisman, the amulet from Korthos, Ring of Spell Storing, and other SP replenishing items AND we got the TP store with all the SP pots you could ever desire!

Self healing..not a good thing for Arcanes to have access to, but not what makes them too powerful. And removing that would hurt a LOT more then just the Arcanes, and doesn't address the Divines at all.

Infinite SP...horrible HORRIBLE thing to give Casters! Remove it, ALL of it, and see just how far the game changes. Simple test, take off ALL SP replenishing items your super Caster wears/uses, hop in EWiz-King and just clear the foyer. See how long your SP lasts without it being replenished by all those toys and pots. Casters use a lot of SP quickly trying to instakill things, those are the most expensive spells to cast, and when you add in the cost of buffs for self and debuffs on the mobs so the instakills land, plus CC to keep from getting overwhelmed because there's a few orange named in there..it's not a cakewalk, it's not easy, and it clearly shows the ACTUAL limits that Casters SHOULD have. It's been the REAL issue for years now but no one wanted to speak out about it cause..hey..infinite SP when the Casters are Healing and CCing..THAT'S AWESOME! But when that same infinite SP is used for the REAL power of a Caster, which is DPS...people get upset, go figure. Remove the SP replenishing items, ALL of them.

Oh..and IF that actually happens, you'd best get used to wiping on quests you now faceroll with ease, cause that happens due to infinite SP on the Healers, not just the Arcanes...

[Razcar]

Thias is right where I should have stopped reading, because it where the debate stops and the personal garbage begins. Because in order to even have a point, you have to dismiss my points as irrelevant, when they clearly are not to the majority of the user base.
Oh come on. Your argument against me saying that Mass Instakills are an advantage for Casters is not that that they aren't - but that I wrote "safe distance", while Wail is a spell effect that affects mobs in your vicinity. If that is not a small detail to nitpick while avoiding the main issue, please tell me what is. Man, it's a text book example for crying out loud.


You are also accusing someone who disagrees with you of not getting it and not seeing the total picture, which is pretty formulaic and well rehearsed as far as argumentation goes around these parts.
Oh I'm sorry if I failed your debate team criteria. I'm trying to get a point across because I think it would make the game better - I'm not arguing because I think it's fun.


No Razcar, in a business atmosphere, you cannot plaintively dismiss customer expectation simply because it doesnt support your opinion, and then expect to maintain a successful customer base. When that customer expectation is based on D&D lore and fiction, you either feed that to them, or you call your game something else. But Turbine already have. When DDO first came out in 2006 the forums were full of PnP players complaining and leaving in disgust because DDO wasn't "true" to the pencil and paper original. And boy, have Turbine continued to steer off that path or what - and for most parts, done so very well.

As we all know, in 3.5 a 18th level Wizards have spells such as Wish, Time Stop and Shapechange, while a Fighter can twirl his sword and take a couple of more slaps. Turbine could have added so many ridiculously overpowered spells from 3.5 that isn't even funny. But they didn't, because it seems to me that they wanted to keep Casters (and Clerics!) from becoming their D&D godlike counterparts. A good decision. It's a little sad to see that they haven't been able to stick to it.


And my point is that there is only one reason why people are PO'd about this now when casters have been overpowered for 4+ years now. Its very transparent indeed. Their cookie cutter khopesh weilding half orcs are no longer telling casters to prop up their melee DPS with mass holds or not to join their groups. So are you saying this serves the "cookie cutter khopesh weilding half orcs" right? That now it's their time to suffer? That is not a very constructive way to solve a problem.



Casters are OP because of their ability to self heal. Take that away, and they have to rely on melee to grab the mobs attention and divine to heal them when damaged.
Yes, but that's not the only one. They are overpowered because in DDO, their cons are close to nil, and their pros are legio and silly powerful.



But that doesnt solve the REAL issue here does it? Because it doesnt put melee back on top of the trash kills and boss DPS. This is the ONLY reason to ask for a caster OFFENSE nerf when it is their SELF HEALING which makes them the most OP in the first place.

So your wish could be granted by giving casters more "cons" bringing them in line with how they were designed in D&D, to be the best offense and have paltry healing, if any. That wont stop all this transparent complaining though..

And I'll add one more thing. Have we not figured out by now that nerf requests end result is not as good as what we even previously had, which is what we complained about in the first place? How many times do we have to go through the cycle before we STOP_ASKING_FOR_NERFS??!! LOL. People will moan that casters are too powerful until the nerf bat gets swung, and it will be the SAME PEOPLE complaining about the nerfs afterward. Mark my words on this, Ive been right on it quite a few times in the past.

If you would read my posts above (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3939095&postcount=97) you would see that I think it is a great idea to buff melee. I gave a list of options melee could be given to make the game more fun for them. And making casters more vulnerable while keeping their advantages is also an approach that might work.

Many of the nerfs the devs have done have made the game better. Yeah, some not, and it's strange that Turbine misses the mark so much as they do in some cases (Critical Rage + WoPs?) but the fact remains. I hope that in a while we can look back and say that it was weird that a Caster could finish a Epic quest solo in 10 minutes, when a melee couldn't finish it in 10 years. And if those CHANGES means that both melee and casters can run Epic quests with the same amount of success in about the same time - great.

[phum]

HP, bab, and armor are not enough.

I'm sorry:) What hp and armor?

I know there are a few cases^^ Barb for hp, and some fighters/monks for ac, but generally... what hp and armor?:D

Seriously tho, what do you guys perceive as acceptable/good hp different melees and casters have and how much does their generally attained ac benefit them? I'm sure every1 agrees that ac builds are currently quite rare.

Also, (sry I'm lazy to go back to copy the quote^^) Chai mentioned expectations of the target population, which is correctly an important aspect. However, I do not think players have realistic expectations of endgame balance in dnd before coming to ddo. On what do they base their expectations? PnP doesn't have endgame. There are no new dnd games (I haven't played any after nwn, which is already old. nwn2 is too different imo). Also, which casters in pnp ignores initiative? In pnp i've played, a slow casters is a quite dead caster. Which caster obtaines 30+ con in pnp? etc.. mana... etc.. mana regen items...:)

I'd say, if we talk about customer expectations for endgame (concerns new players. Old one's shouldn't have any expectations, just interests:D), they mostly nowadays come from other mmos. For many, that unfortunately means the game that this week had its own thread here. Unfortunately, two major selling points of that game are balance and polish. As ddo continues to hold its market share, it will have more and more of those players. Imo those will be the customer expectations. For end game that is^^

[svinja]

Is it necessary to keep opening new threads to cry about this? There are 2 right next to one another on the thread list...


Many of the nerfs the devs have done have made the game better. Yeah, some not, and it's strange that Turbine misses the mark so much as they do in some cases (Critical Rage + WoPs?) but the fact remains. I hope that in a while we can look back and say that it was weird that a Caster could finish a Epic quest solo in 10 minutes, when a melee couldn't finish it in 10 years. And if those CHANGES means that both melee and casters can run Epic quests with the same amount of success in about the same time - great.

My paladin can't solo a single epic quest (maybe claw once I get back to 20), but I don't care about this in the slightest... I don't see why people are so obsessed with this. I do like your suggestions for melee though. Melee is far too passive in this game. I like arcanes better here than in WoW, but melee is a lot more fun there, as they get just as many abilities as casters get spells. There should be less of an emphasis on autoattacking and more on using various active abilities. For example barbarians should be able to leap into a group of mobs and stun everything around them. :D 20 active abilities per class at least, and not ones that cost feats, would be AWESOME. :D

[phum]

Is it necessary to keep opening new threads to cry about this? There are 2 right next to one another on the thread list...



My paladin can't solo a single epic quest (maybe claw once I get back to 20), but I don't care about this in the slightest... I don't see why people are so obsessed with this. I do like your suggestions for melee though. Melee is far too passive in this game. I like arcanes better here than in WoW, but melee is a lot more fun there, as they get just as many abilities as casters get spells. There should be less of an emphasis on autoattacking and more on using various active abilities. For example barbarians should be able to leap into a group of mobs and stun everything around them. :D 20 active abilities per class at least, and not ones that cost feats, would be AWESOME. :D

This is a surprisingly valid and noteworthy point:D It's very true that playing melee in ddo is more passive than playing one in .../;) But, yeh. Wonder if these threads could be combined..

[Lissyl]

20 active abilities per class at least, and not ones that cost feats, would be FOURTH EDITION

I'd be alright with that if I could slap a little logo on it that says 'Game by Fisher Price'. :p

[Aashrym]

I'm sorry:) What hp and armor?

I know there are a few cases^^ Barb for hp, and some fighters/monks for ac, but generally... what hp and armor?:D

Seriously tho, what do you guys perceive as acceptable/good hp different melees and casters have and how much does their generally attained ac benefit them? I'm sure every1 agrees that ac builds are currently quite rare.

Also, (sry I'm lazy to go back to copy the quote^^) Chai mentioned expectations of the target population, which is correctly an important aspect. However, I do not think players have realistic expectations of endgame balance in dnd before coming to ddo. On what do they base their expectations? PnP doesn't have endgame. There are no new dnd games (I haven't played any after nwn, which is already old. nwn2 is too different imo). Also, which casters in pnp ignores initiative? In pnp i've played, a slow casters is a quite dead caster. Which caster obtaines 30+ con in pnp? etc.. mana... etc.. mana regen items...:)

I'd say, if we talk about customer expectations for endgame (concerns new players. Old one's shouldn't have any expectations, just interests:D), they mostly nowadays come from other mmos. For many, that unfortunately means the game that this week had its own thread here. Unfortunately, two major selling points of that game are balance and polish. As ddo continues to hold its market share, it will have more and more of those players. Imo those will be the customer expectations. For end game that is^^

Casters build 500 and 600+ hp in DDO while their abilities are primarily at range. So they have the advantage of being able to constantly move to also mitigate damage on top of defensive spells and gear. That is why the hit points are not such an issue currently.

Armor is virtually meaningless and shield blocking works on a caster. I would give better enhancements to melees for shields so casters do not simply get another advantage if feat changes become worth taking. Damage mitigation enhancements for fighters and pallies is what I was thinking, and enhancements that increase AC more. Make S&B worth something specifically and AC better in general. AC being non existent was my point. The free armor feats for melee classes do not give them an advantages over classes without armor feats.

BaB is offered through a spell or clickie. Melee do not have an advantage there, particularly because bab is not used for spell attacks.

The only advantage melee have is that their swinging a weapon doesn`t rely on a blue bar, but even then attack boosts, rages, smites, etc are limited to number of uses per day and have timers.

[Aashrym]

This is a surprisingly valid and noteworthy point:D It's very true that playing melee in ddo is more passive than playing one in .../;) But, yeh. Wonder if these threads could be combined..

You will find a lot of players have been asking for melee feat improvements for a while. It would be a step in the right direction. ;)

[phum]

Casters build 500 and 600+ hp in DDO while their abilities are primarily at range. So they have the advantage of being able to constantly move to also mitigate damage on top of defensive spells and gear. That is why the hit points are not such an issue currently.

Armor is virtually meaningless and shield blocking works on a caster. I would give better enhancements to melees for shields so casters do not simply get another advantage if feat changes become worth taking. Damage mitigation enhancements for fighters and pallies is what I was thinking, and enhancements that increase AC more. Make S&B worth something specifically and AC better in general. AC being non existent was my point. The free armor feats for melee classes do not give them an advantages over classes without armor feats.

BaB is offered through a spell or clickie. Melee do not have an advantage there, particularly because bab is not used for spell attacks.

The only advantage melee have is that their swinging a weapon doesn`t rely on a blue bar, but even then attack boosts, rages, smites, etc are limited to number of uses per day and have timers.

Ah, I know I know^^ My fail for trying to be sarcastic. Sometimes it helps in trying to make a point. Caster hp are very close to melee hp. The melee dmg mitigation enhancements have less importance than quickened (or even unquickened) defensive buff spells. The range is also a very important defensive factor. .. These points have been discussed in these threads quite a few times and I agree with you:)

[ThePrisoner]

Well they nerfed WOPS - (and they were rare) in the name of 'balancing combat'.

Seems to me that certain caster spells / changes have now took combat out of balance again on a far greater scale than the WOP issue ever was.

Do you think Turbine wil address the issue?

Good point! I hope they nerf death spells and sorc damage so that epics take waaay longer. I hate efficiency.

[Chai]

Oh come on. Your argument against me saying that Mass Instakills are an advantage for Casters is not that that they aren't - but that I wrote "safe distance", while Wail is a spell effect that affects mobs in your vicinity. If that is not a small detail to nitpick while avoiding the main issue, please tell me what is. Man, it's a text book example for crying out loud.

Its not nitpicking when youre pointing out the advantage, which is safe distance, really isnt an advantage at all. There are a couple things here. First off, mobs dont attack as fast as melee players do. If they did then attacking from a safe distance would be a huge boon. If an orthon could hit a kensai haste boost and start shredding the caster who tried to wail it from melee distance, id see your point. The other thing is that melee can both range attack for decent damage, spell attack for decent damage (this is what even melee takes the most damage from, AOE spells) and teleport to the location of who has the most aggro. Not to mention the single most OP thing about arcanes offense is herding up a BUNCH of trash mobs and wailing the entire pile down, which has to be done near melee range. Mass instakills from a safe distance? I dont see it.


Oh I'm sorry if I failed your debate team criteria. I'm trying to get a point across because I think it would make the game better - I'm not arguing because I think it's fun.

Yet many of your justifications for the points you make are to tell me that anything I stated has nothing to do with the issue, which is incorrect. Customer expectation has EVERYTHING to do with that issue. In many of my points, I am outlining where that customer expectation comes from. Companies cant simply ignore this and expect to turn a profit, and this includes MMOs based off specific games they share a name with.


But Turbine already have. When DDO first came out in 2006 the forums were full of PnP players complaining and leaving in disgust because DDO wasn't "true" to the pencil and paper original. And boy, have Turbine continued to steer off that path or what - and for most parts, done so very well.

There were also the people complaining the game was too hard and couldnt be soloed, and citing examples from every other MMO on the market where soloing is stupid easy. The end result of that was casual difficulty, stat debuffs, curses, and neg levels going from perminent to merely having a timer, and dungeon scaling. THe whole complaint about not being able to solo well back in 06 and 07 is what lead to being able to solo 97% of this game nowdays.


As we all know, in 3.5 a 18th level Wizards have spells such as Wish, Time Stop and Shapechange, while a Fighter can twirl his sword and take a couple of more slaps. Turbine could have added so many ridiculously overpowered spells from 3.5 that isn't even funny. But they didn't, because it seems to me that they wanted to keep Casters (and Clerics!) from becoming their D&D godlike counterparts. A good decision. It's a little sad to see that they haven't been able to stick to it.

And due to that decision, the most powerful spell in the game was a 4th level spell which casters used to solo epics for as long as epics have been out. This did not just start happening in u9. Something very different happened in u9 to cause as big a stir as we are seeing. Melee trash kills and boss DPS are being overshadowed by casters. Before then, no one even cared how much casters were OP.


So are you saying this serves the "cookie cutter khopesh weilding half orcs" right? That now it's their time to suffer? That is not a very constructive way to solve a problem.

No. What I am saying is its a valid comparison. The comparison being made here is casters ability to get into groups pre u9 -vs- post u9. Melee arent suffering one bit here. We still get into groups np and faceroll epics on melee daily. The mob HP were lowered to 2k-2600HP or so per trash mob. We got melee that have 50+ stun DCs in this game doing more than 500 DPS. Take four of those into epics with stunnable trash and see a beautiful thing in action. Suffering? I dont think so. Melee isnt suffering any more than it used to be, simply because by proxy they are now second best.


Yes, but that's not the only one. They are overpowered because in DDO, their cons are close to nil, and their pros are legio and silly powerful.

And asking for their offensive capabilities to be nerfed is not the solution, when its their ability to self heal that makes casters OP. The biggest "con" was removed years ago, and not in u9. Like I stated before, this is all transparent, because no one even cared about it until casters started outing melee in trash kills and DPS, and now its a sin, and exagerated to the point where people are saying "melee are useless".


If you would read my posts above (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3939095&postcount=97) you would see that I think it is a great idea to buff melee. I gave a list of options melee could be given to make the game more fun for them. And making casters more vulnerable while keeping their advantages is also an approach that might work.

Good, because nerfs are rarely the answer, and its usually the same people complaining about the nerf afterward who were asking for the nerf before it happened. I think we as individuals understand this, but we as a community sure as heck dont. We keep setting ourselves up for more u5 style nerfs, where the forumites ask for some surgery to be done and they get carpet bombing instead.


Many of the nerfs the devs have done have made the game better. Yeah, some not, and it's strange that Turbine misses the mark so much as they do in some cases (Critical Rage + WoPs?) but the fact remains. I hope that in a while we can look back and say that it was weird that a Caster could finish a Epic quest solo in 10 minutes, when a melee couldn't finish it in 10 years. And if those CHANGES means that both melee and casters can run Epic quests with the same amount of success in about the same time - great.

The reality is this in MMOs - including but not limited to DDO. If people want to solo, no amount of nerfs are going to make them group, simply because their solo capability was removed. They will either find other ways to solo, or stop playing and find another game that allows them to solo. On the converse, people who like to group are not going to stop grouping because they play an uber necromancer and dont technically need their friends to be there with them to succeed. They are going to group because they enjoy socializing and the cooperative aspect of this game.

One influence, D&D, is a forced cooperation game which requires players to work together to win, however, as a business, Turbine cannot ignore the portion of their customer base who likes to solo, due to influence from other MMOs as well. We have seen evidence that they understand this, as we merely have to point back to casual difficulty, debuff timers where they used to be perminent, dungeon scaling, and all the other ways this game has been made easier to play over the years. What does this mean? Creating a situation in an MMO where players cannot solo due to game mechanic reasons is a bad business decision. Even if players like you and I agree that we like forced cooperation gaming, theres still money to be made off people who like to solo their way through MMOs.

[KristovK]

The reality is this in MMOs - including but not limited to DDO. If people want to solo, no amount of nerfs are going to make them group, simply because their solo capability was removed. They will either find other ways to solo, or stop playing and find another game that allows them to solo. On the converse, people who like to group are not going to stop grouping because they play an uber necromancer and dont technically need their friends to be there with them to succeed. They are going to group because they enjoy socializing and the cooperative aspect of this game.

One influence, D&D, is a forced cooperation game which requires players to work together to win, however, as a business, Turbine cannot ignore the portion of their customer base who likes to solo, due to influence from other MMOs as well. We have seen evidence that they understand this, as we merely have to point back to casual difficulty, debuff timers where they used to be perminent, dungeon scaling, and all the other ways this game has been made easier to play over the years. What does this mean? Creating a situation in an MMO where players cannot solo due to game mechanic reasons is a bad business decision. Even if players like you and I agree that we like forced cooperation gaming, theres still money to be made off people who like to solo their way through MMOs.

THIS^^

When DDO was first released, there was NO solo options, didn't exist, the game was literally designed around forcing players to group together to complete the quests. It worked well in testing, some complained, but most loved it, it's an MMO, you SHOULD be playing with other people! That was actually a pretty common refrain on the forums back then whenever ANYONE brought up the non-solo design of DDO.

Within what..year, year and a half, we had Solo as a setting, which wasn't even remotely like what Casual is now. Solo just meant you had a SLIGHTLY less hard time running the quest..and it was literally solo, you couldn't take a party with you. Prior to F2P, Solo was reworked a few times to make it actually SOLO friendly, but it was STILL SOLO only, no friends in there with you! And there was a lot of content without a Solo setting.

F2P..Solo was here. Now it's CASUAL because SOLO was TOO HARD TO PLAY SOLO! Seriously, Solo, AFTER the F2P changes that made the game TOO EASY, was literally too difficult for people to play. I've encountered some of those people, like the group of 8th level toons I ran into in the Harbor who asked my 20th Monk to help them complete Lost Seekers on CASUAL! They'd spent 4 hours trying to run it on Casual with 5 8th level toons, 2 Melee, 1 Cleric, a Wiz and a Rogue. I thought it was a joke at first, but they were SERIOUS! I jumped on my little Mech who was 7th and the time and walked them through it on Casual, amazing them with my uberleet killing skills...*sigh*

Yeah..THAT is the market Turbine is aiming for boys and girls, do NOT be deluded into thinking otherwise. Min/Max Barbarians used to DIE just trying to get out of the Wavecrest Basement when the game was first released, now we solo Misery's Peak on Elite with a 2nd lvl whatever and no twink gear. You REALLY think Turbine is thinking about the top end players or even the decent players when they design new quests and change how the game works? Seriously? Can I have some of what you are taking?

[Aashrym]

THIS^^

When DDO was first released, there was NO solo options, didn't exist, the game was literally designed around forcing players to group together to complete the quests. It worked well in testing, some complained, but most loved it, it's an MMO, you SHOULD be playing with other people! That was actually a pretty common refrain on the forums back then whenever ANYONE brought up the non-solo design of DDO.

Within what..year, year and a half, we had Solo as a setting, which wasn't even remotely like what Casual is now. Solo just meant you had a SLIGHTLY less hard time running the quest..and it was literally solo, you couldn't take a party with you. Prior to F2P, Solo was reworked a few times to make it actually SOLO friendly, but it was STILL SOLO only, no friends in there with you! And there was a lot of content without a Solo setting.

F2P..Solo was here. Now it's CASUAL because SOLO was TOO HARD TO PLAY SOLO! Seriously, Solo, AFTER the F2P changes that made the game TOO EASY, was literally too difficult for people to play. I've encountered some of those people, like the group of 8th level toons I ran into in the Harbor who asked my 20th Monk to help them complete Lost Seekers on CASUAL! They'd spent 4 hours trying to run it on Casual with 5 8th level toons, 2 Melee, 1 Cleric, a Wiz and a Rogue. I thought it was a joke at first, but they were SERIOUS! I jumped on my little Mech who was 7th and the time and walked them through it on Casual, amazing them with my uberleet killing skills...*sigh*

Yeah..THAT is the market Turbine is aiming for boys and girls, do NOT be deluded into thinking otherwise. Min/Max Barbarians used to DIE just trying to get out of the Wavecrest Basement when the game was first released, now we solo Misery's Peak on Elite with a 2nd lvl whatever and no twink gear. You REALLY think Turbine is thinking about the top end players or even the decent players when they design new quests and change how the game works? Seriously? Can I have some of what you are taking?

In memory of olden days.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9dDBrxAySA

I do remember when I thought waterworks was hard. I do a double-take sometimes when I am in the harbor and some of the players in a pug have issues.

[KristovK]

In memory of olden days.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9dDBrxAySA

I do remember when I thought waterworks was hard. I do a double-take sometimes when I am in the harbor and some of the players in a pug have issues.

Oh my gods..I'd forgotten that ad, thank you so much for finding it, brings back some memories...

And it really shows you how much the target audience has been changed for DDO over the years.

[Aashrym]

Oh my gods..I'd forgotten that ad, thank you so much for finding it, brings back some memories...

And it really shows you how much the target audience has been changed for DDO over the years.

I really got a kick out of it when it came out. Nemesis was posting on the boards his goal of soloing the entire game on his cleric because the resources to heal one player were much less than trying to heal a party. Then of course he couldn`t because the dev`s tried to make it impossible to solo some quests. I wondered where he disappeared on my hiatus.

I`m glad the game is more solo friendly and development has moved away from forced grouping. It was rough for a lot of players back then.

[Postumus]

False. D&D is what separates DDO from the other cookie cutter MMO clones, and in many cases, the differences between DDO (due to D&D) and other MMOS is the exact reason why people choose to play DDO in the first place. If we start casting aside the spirit of D&D as it relates to DDO, so too do we cast aside any distinction this game has versus its WOW clone counterparts.




Quote. For. Truth.

[Postumus]

My point here is that casters can instakill large groups of opponents without having to touch them, like a melee would have to do to kill the same amount, one after one. "Safe distance" is not an exact measurement, and I see why you attack that - since that is all you have. :rolleyes:

Can melees/specialists do this? No, they cannot.

.

Ever play a Ranger?

Ever play a bard with a high perform skill?

Ever run necro-anything with a Hunter of the dead?

If you think specialists can't eliminate or incapacitate large groups or opponents without having to touch them, then you must not play specialist classes much.

[arrrcher]

In memory of olden days.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9dDBrxAySA

I do remember when I thought waterworks was hard. I do a double-take sometimes when I am in the harbor and some of the players in a pug have issues.

simply beautiful. well played sir. well played.

here's what I want in an mmo: my game, the way I want it.

hard, so its a challenge. Isnt there a dev with a sig that says: no challenge, no fun?

and balanced, so fools dont zergsolo the quest unless all are zergsoloing the quest with them.

I will never, NEVER, get that game. its very existence is a myth. because the market realities that corps have to deal force too many wants from too many people down their throats.

yes I could put up an lfm with these requirements: I might as well solo for all the time I would have to spend sifting through the chaff.

yes I could join a guild, but, yeah, been looking since 200? (look at my join date - I forget); not found one yet that offers what the ad in the quoted post said was here.

and now... crafting is borked. sigh...

DDO was supposed to be different.

[Razcar]

Ever play a Ranger?

Ever play a bard with a high perform skill?

Ever run necro-anything with a Hunter of the dead?

If you think specialists can't eliminate or incapacitate large groups or opponents without having to touch them, then you must not play specialist classes much.
Yes, I have.

It's nice that you've thought about some exceptions to one of my many points. But there always are some, so no golf clap for you. And regardless: Manyshot, Fascinate and Turn Undead does not rival a Caster in any way, shape or form.

And does these "exceptions" change my main point: Casters have many very, very powerful pros and very few cons? I can't see that it does - not even a little bit. Sorry.

[Eme]

If i want to have some monk fun now i have to go and solo,

.. 'partly ' due to casters not giving me a chance to get some KI to have fun with.. partly due to the devs pigeonholing monks into certain 'way of'/stance/gear that i dont want to use, and partly due to the change in auto-crit-Ki generation and stun changes

its terribly poor game mechanics, that now i feel i have to solo to have some 'fun' with certain classes

[KristovK]

Yes, I have.

It's nice that you've thought about some exceptions to one of my many points. But there always are some, so no golf clap for you. And regardless: Manyshot, Fascinate and Turn Undead does not rival a Caster in any way, shape or form.

And does these "exceptions" change my main point: Casters have many very, very powerful pros and very few cons? I can't see that it does - not even a little bit. Sorry.

Yer funny Razcar, please keep it up, you make the the nerf crowd look SO awesome!

'NO ONE BUT CASTERS CAN DO THIS, THEY ARE OP, NERF THEM!'
"uh..Raz, all these classes can do that"
'SHUT UP, NO ONE BUT CASTERS DOING IT MATTERS!'

Get my vote for MVP on the non-nerf team!

[Corwinsky]

I agree that casters are not as much OP because of their spells as because of their SP pool.
How does that affect melees, how does that unbalance the end-game?

Harder to find casters to do some epic quests to get scrolls as those better solo them on their own.
So melees end up having to buy them on the AH from these casters at some outrageous prices (all scrolls are routinely in the 200+kpp) they can't really afford because they don't have scrolls to sell themselves.

I can say that knowledgly because I actually have a wizard I need to use to farm scrolls on my own in order to find the scrolls my melees need and I have well enough pp to buy other scrolls on the AH.
Tried to do some scrolls farming with my melees and wizard in groups and gave up: scrolls are rare and dividing the chances by 6 made it all too impossible to get what I needed (scroll of antique greataxe at the time).

So how to fix that?
- First the unlimited access to sp through ConOp items should be fixed.
- Second all quests could be slightly modified to be more like VoN3 where initial mobs (3 packs of mobs for around 12 mobs) would not be epic ones and have some casters with them that cast see invis.
That way if caster players still want to solo these epic they would have to waste some of their resources to kill mobs that can't drop a scroll.
- Third scroll drop rate should scale according to the number of players (non hirelings) in the group.
Implementing changes 1 and 3 at least would definitely encourage casters to group again to farm scrolls while still allowing others to solo but they would need to use more resources (pots) to get the same chance to get a scroll.

[Rodasch]

So how to fix that?
- First the unlimited access to sp through ConOp items should be fixed.

Have you ever played a caster and made a ConOp item? Have you tried them and seen how low the proc rate really is and how low the sp return is? ConOp items are not the problem. Torc gives more SP over time, but even it's not the real problem. SP pots being spammable and AH sellable is the problem. If they made sp pots BtA and the store bought pots have a long reuse timer, it would go a long way to reducing the "infinite sp" issues that most unbalance the casters vs melees.



- Second all quests could be slightly modified to be more like VoN3 where initial mobs (3 packs of mobs for around 12 mobs) would not be epic ones and have some casters with them that cast see invis.
That way if caster players still want to solo these epic they would have to waste some of their resources to kill mobs that can't drop a scroll.

Why on earth would you want to screw everyone out of scroll drops just to "punish" exceptional casters who can solo the mission (and have been able to since long before u9)? Nerfing scroll drops in any epic nerfs them for everyone, including melees, but even more so for melees since apparently it's being claimed they cannot solo epics for scrolls and have to rely on grouping (and thus splitting their scroll drops with others)



- Third scroll drop rate should scale according to the number of players (non hirelings) in the group.
Implementing changes 1 and 3 at least would definitely encourage casters to group again to farm scrolls while still allowing others to solo but they would need to use more resources (pots) to get the same chance to get a scroll.

No, all that would do is encourage 1 caster to make 5 piking alts to drag around and get even more scrolls.

The answers don't lie in altering the scroll drop mechanics, but in altering the way SP pots work and their availability, coupled with altering epic mob AI and buffing/casting habits (maybe changing a few monsters archetype to include more caster enemies to counter caster PC's with buffs like death ward and freedom of movement, etc)

[Razcar]

Yer funny Razcar, please keep it up, you make the the nerf crowd look SO awesome!

'NO ONE BUT CASTERS CAN DO THIS, THEY ARE OP, NERF THEM!'
"uh..Raz, all these classes can do that"
'SHUT UP, NO ONE BUT CASTERS DOING IT MATTERS!'

Get my vote for MVP on the non-nerf team!
Why, thank you, I will be here all week.

It is also funny how you try to put your words in my mouth. Yuck. Instead, let's repeat my main point, just for you, since it seems that have whooshed you completely by:

"Casters. They have many advantages. Very powerful advantages. And very few disadvantages. That's skewed. If that can be alleviated by boosting melee, sweet."

There you go. A cliffs notes version.

Where you are right though, and what I agree with, is that the blind prince of the "Don't touch my easy button WHAAAAH"-kingdom is yet to be crowned. We have some solid runner ups though.

[Corwinsky]

I didn't want to mention potions because although they go a long way toward making sp "infinite" they actually force casters to consume resources which costs a lot of pp on AH or TP on the store so that's a fair trade compared to using an item like the Torc for example.

I don't want to punish good casters (and indeed it would somewhat punish whole groups too) that's why although I was mentionning it as a possibility in the conclusion I mentioned points 1 and 3 only. (indeed point 1 might be better to mention torc than just ConOp).

I don't think it would be as easy to make 5 alts and pike with them as you make it sound.
These alts would still need to be level 20 each and on different accounts (so BtA items can't be transferred) so maybe somewhat dedicated enough to do that would actually deserve to get 6 times more scroll than by soloing.

Why would they go to that extreme while they could just group with others and in the process kill mobs fasters than soloing without using resources, with the same chance of getting scrolls as in soloing and on top of that they would get the end chests (right now only the most uber ones can go up to and kill the end boss alone)

I really don't see any cons in scaling the scrolls drop rate according to the number of players in the group. And that wouldn't be a nerf to anyone.

[Rodasch]

I don't think it would be as easy to make 5 alts and pike with them as you make it sound.
These alts would still need to be level 20 each and on different accounts (so BtA items can't be transferred) so maybe somewhat dedicated enough to do that would actually deserve to get 6 times more scroll than by soloing.


It's not as hard as you might think. Many gamers already have multi-boxing systems from playing other MMO's that way (and some already play DDO with 2-3 characters at once, sometimes). Scrolls are not BtA, so the different accounts are irrelevent, and all BtA/BtC loot from chests can be transferred to any toon within the chest at leisure.

Hell, the extra accounts are even free here, and you can buy them guest passes til they have enough TP to buy the key epic packs.

[KristovK]

Corwinsky, I've mentioned SP pots multiple times now, as well as ConOpp items and other gear that replenishes SP. Remove them, remove them all, do NOT add them back in ever.

Giving a Caster extra SP by increasing their total is one thing, it has been limited so far to about the same amount possible in PnP, where you can get extra spell slots for X level of spells per day from stat bonus and from items. Keeping in mind that a 20th Wizard only gets 4 9th level slots a day, plus stat mod bonuses, 9 per day is pretty high for a 20th Wizard. And right now, we can attain up to 200 sp from Archmagi items, 400 for Sorcs. That's an extra 4/8 9th level spells at 50/9th lvl spell DDO uses, and that's a good number and quite possible to attain in PnP. SP additions of this sort are fine and work with the established PnP rules format, thereby helping keep a cap on the actual power of any Caster. While a DDO Caster has essentially 50 9th level spells as opposed to 9 in PnP, doing so costs them all their lower level spells, so it's a fair trade off.

DDO however has gone too far, it has ways to replenish those lost SP without resting, ConOpp, SP pots, SP replenishing items, thereby giving Casters unlimited SP without restrictions. Divine Vitality could be added to that list, especially now that we've got Radiant Servants who regen their Turns which means their DVs as well, giving us yet another font of unlimited SP for Casters to tap into. This removes the actual cap placed on a Caster's power that the game itself has built into it, both DDO and PnP, the actual number of spells you can cast without resting.

The fix for this is simple, remove ConOpp, remove SP pots, remove SP replenishing items, and either remove DV OR remove it from the Turn replenishing of a Radiant Servant(current engine probably makes that impossible though).

That's it, that's all it would take, and Casters would be just as powerful as they are and should be, but they would be LIMITED in how they use that power due to the simple fact of only X SP to use per shrine. This would have a serious impact on the ENTIRE game too, as this would change many aspects that people have grown dependent upon over the past few years. Imagine..ToD Elite..no way to replenish your SP at all...nothing...what's gonna happen? There'd be a lot more wipes happening across the board starting at midlevels and going to end game/Epic content, because THAT'S where that SP replenishing starts showing up as a factor.

No need to change HOW Casters work at all, spells and their DCs and what they effect are where they should be. Just remove that infinite SP..all is fixed without a single nerf.

[Chai]

Where you are right though, and what I agree with, is that the blind prince of the "Don't touch my easy button WHAAAAH"-kingdom is yet to be crowned. We have some solid runner ups though.

That "easy button" was all fine and dandy for the four years it was OP due to having the best offensive spells in the game coupled with self healing paralleled only by divine, right up to and until that "easy button" took the trash killing score and boss DPS title away from the previous easy button formula, which was inviting a buncha heavy beaters to the group and telling the arcane to CC and S7FU.

Now all of a sudden its unbalanced? Barely anyone cared about the perching and crit fishing scroll farmers the entire time, and all of a sudden now its OP? People are claiming that its NOW that casters dont need anyone else in groups? No, this has been the case for 4 years now. Who are you calling blind?

What did change in U9? The best DPS in the game is no longer a pair of khopesh. The most efficient way to kill trash is not a pair of khopesh. And players are calling for offense nerfs to a class thats OP due to its ability to heal itself. How wonderfully transparent.

The cookie cutter is broke and the bakery is closed, boys.

Film.
At.
11.

Meanwhile in other news, I get to play my caster again, and not be declined because there are already two casters in the raid, then have to jump on a melee just to get into the same group before it fills. I still dont see any of the issues the doomsayers are claiming will happen, where melee cant get into groups. We still faceroll all the same content the way we did before in melee heavy groups.