Paladin A desperate paladin in need of advices. [Archive]

Such755

07-14-2011, 05:31 AM

Here's a little story:
When I first creater my Paladin, I wanted him to be something that will contribute to the party, be an awesome defense tower in addition to providing minor heals (cure serious \ lay on hands) and res those who die (if there's no cleric, or if the cleric dies).
So my plan was to focus mainly on AC, leaving the DPS for others, drawing monsters to me with Intimidate.
Alas, about a week ago I was informed that it is all useless.
I was told that such build can never exist with the way Intimidate works now; rather than simply draw the monsters to me no matter how much damage they recieve from others, I get increased hate generation, meaning I still need to do some serious DPS to keep the aggro on me.
In order to maintain such damage, I must use a two handed \two hands weapons, something that will drop my AC dramaticaly (A whole 9, leaving my +5 tower shield aside).
So what I did is, I went to a nice guy named Fred and paid him 17k PP and that bloody dragonshard (Yes, I know I could get one feat change for free, I'm dumb.) and exchanged the feat Tower Shield for Two handed fighting.
Will this work?
Stats on creation:
16 str
10 dex
15 con
8 wis
15 char
At lvl 13 I have 20 base str, I used a +1 tome on Wis and Char.
My feats for lvl 13:
Force of Personality
Luck of Heros
Shield mastery
Toughness
Two handed fighting

With the old enhancemnets (Those build for the Defender presteige) I had about 38 AC unbuffed (with a tower shield), and fully buffed, defensive fighting and defensive stance I reached 55 AC (including the barkskin potion), even though I moved 33% of the speed (a bit faster than that with Haste or Retreat). The armor was a simple +5 full plate and the tower shield was +5 as well.

1) What should I do? Is it possible to go DPS as a paladin and actualy be good enough for the party? Or I should not give up the Intimi-tank build and retake the Tower Shield feat? (Please refer to what feats should I change aside from Force of personality, I love my saves, and why, as well as enhancements).
2) Right now I use a + 4 acid greatsword of pure good, dealing about 22+5+5 damage with it per swing, the highest damage I ever reached with this paladin was when I used an extalted smite and got a crit, something that rarely happens. How good is that for DPS?
3) If AC is REALLY that useless, how come all the high level people are still wearing armor? Why not just wear a robe with the same properties of an armor and suffer less Armor penalty?
4) If I buy the 32 points build now, can I apply it to already existing chars with the old 28 points build? (Like get the extra +4 stats the next level or something?)
5) If I TR this char, will I lose all my crafting levels? If you guys tell me this char is a piece of **** and paladins are absolutly useless, I'll just powerlevel to 20 and TR to something better, assuming I can keep my crafting levels.
6) If I TR with a char that is 28 build, will I still get the 34 build?

Thank you for your patient, I know I write too much stuff. Like now. I should stop, but I don't. See? Stupid.

Templarion

07-14-2011, 05:48 AM

1) -
2) -
3) Some types of armor grant other benefits than AC. Named loot has special effects. Also, AC still works on lower level quests so having high end armor makes soloing lower level content easier.
4) No.
5) You keep your crafting levels when you TR. But remember that level 13 is still low. You need 2mil xp to achieve lvl 20 at the first life. Rerolling your toon now wouldn't be so terrible waste of time. And I recommend you to use some other class than paladin until you TR or get that 32pt build.

tekkentroop

07-14-2011, 06:15 AM

Retaking feats is expensive (as you already noticed) and luck of heroes and force of personality dont do much for a pally who already gets save boosts from charisma and needs some wis item for spellcasting anyway. Powerleveling and TRing might not be a good idea unless youre exactly knowing what youre doing (if you got a lot of time and already TR experience with other chars, go ahead)

Better reroll the char now, and with better combat feats, some twink gear, and more experience it will probably be a bit faster than the first time. Dont forget improved critical (slashing) feat at lvl 9, its really crucial for any paladin.

my take on THF paladin feats:

toughness
power attack
THF
IC:Slash
ITHF
GTHF
1x free choice (maybe shield mastery for reduced damage)

Stats look fine, although you might take the two points out of dex and put them into cha. What race did you chose?

Claymorep

07-14-2011, 07:33 AM

Even for a exping alt You missed so much that I don't know where o start but gratz for this tread as at least we'll have a lolbased build no more ;)

Ok I was joking but at the end not so much ;)

Anyway I'm embarassed aboout what You are asking as You need to change so much that it requires a greater reincarnation...

What party need? not a useless pally! To stay behind your shiled while others deal damage, cast spells or heals and all mobs ignore You is like to have a piker that gone afk at start of the quest... What have to be your role? Dps and jolly! You have to be able to face 2-3 mobs and kill them without any support and play as jolly in a lots of situations (intimibosses, raise, use some heals or wands on you so healer can concentrate on heal-suckers barbarians, high saves and high ac to first focus attention of mobs, block at doors so archers, casters and 2handed dps can use full powers without worry too much of their health, etc)

Some considerations:
Ac is worth till lvl 14 then mobs hits so high that You need some raid/item/crafting investments
Aggro managment for what you have in mind needs a Helf as he has 2 separate intimidate attempts
Aggro managment on bosses needs dps too as it is a bit different now.
2 of your feats are near useless (force of personality and luck of heroes). Even for a no dps build You absolutely need improved critical slashing. As pally You'll have so high saves that only a 1 is a failure (only in epics you'll need more and only on traps).

For your questions:
1 For dps use a falchion (better vs criticable mobs) unless You have nothing better than Holy sword spell (+5 greatsword dr bypassing devil/demon holy burst) but a falchion is better for treat range. If you use tower shieled you do little dps as going on a scimitar and sincerely I don't know if an intimi build is of some use in exping...
2 Dps is very low and it would be more if You take power attack feat (a must in my opinion). Exalted smites are where pally takes his dps in combo with Divine sacrifice. Your cha is a bit low, but never enter combat without divine favor, divine might and, as long as You reach lvl, 14 zeal. So create your swords you need then change spell and use zeal like hot dogs for an angry rottweiler...
3 At high levels ALL use robes except some real tanks! Keep an eye on red dressed guys that wander somewhere. All use robes. (Me kotc and another dos pally are the only guys on the server with a red dragon medium armor on the server, but we surely did for nice look, not for ac...).
4 If You buy 32 point You have to create a alt from zero or use a greater reincarnation. You can reach 32 point build with 1750 total favor too.
5 With tr You'll have a new character with all gear and all crafting levels You had before, but You'll add 5% healing amplification from pally past life and You'll be 34 point build. There is nothing better than a pally ;) Anyway pally is near the harder way of life of the game: It's a stress guy that need continue clicking on something, so stat starved that You need a great investment in gear to be competitive, and a lot more...
9 on 10 pally select another way... At your decision ;)

Ralmeth

07-14-2011, 09:34 AM

It is possible to have a useful Paladin tank. This is what I run as my main, but it just doesn't work well the way you were thinking. In particular, as others have pointed out to you you don't want to build for all defense and no offense, but instead you want a mix of both offense and defense.

DPS vs Tank Mode
Every good Pally tank should have both a DPS and a tank mode. Your DPS mode can be as simple as using the highest DPS falchion you can get with power attack turned on. Sure, your AC is lower but DPS mode is all about having the highest DPS. There are many times in DDO where you just want to kill things fast and having an uber AC doesn't matter so much. Your tank mode is your S&B mode with as high of an AC as you can get along with being able to dish out decent DPS so that you can hate tank.

Hate Tanking
The days of tanking groups of mobs with intimidate are more or less over. Sure you can grab aggro of some monsters with an intimidate but with casters throwing area of effect spells left and right, the 15 second cooldown on intimidate, etc. it's very difficult for this to work like you're thinking unless your party works with you to make it work (i.e no AOE spells, letting you run ahead to grab aggro, etc), but do not expect a PUG to ever do this. Instead, Paladin DoS tanks excel at hate tanking one big, nasty monster at any one time.

Feats
Aside from Toughness, and possibly shield mastery, you need to swap out all of your feats. #1, you need to have combat expertise if you're going to be a DoS tank. You didn't list your intelligence, but this one feat gives you 5 AC when called upon. That's a huge boost! #2, you need to have power attack for your DPS mode. Sometimes I even mix the two modes by going S&B with power attack on. #3, improved critical. This is just an awesome feat to pass up. Then there's toughness which you already have. I would consider these four a must have no matter what.

lvl 1 - Toughness
lvl 3 - Power Attack
lvl 6 - Combat Expertise
lvl 9 - Improved Critical Slashing

After this, you have 3 more feats to choose from and IMHO there are two good options to go with on a newer Pally tank, either focusing more on your DPS mode or more on your S&B mode (which I prefer).

Option #1 - DPS Mode Focus
In this option you focus more on your DPS mode with the full THF chain
lvl 12 - THF
lvl 15 - ITHF
lvl 18 - GTHF

Option #2 - S&B Focus
In this option, you want to maximize your S&B tanking mode
lvl 12 - Extend
lvl 15 - Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash
lvl 18 - Dodge if you have the dex, otherwise take the other shield feat or khopesh

Hope this helps.

Claymorep

07-14-2011, 10:06 AM

elraido

07-14-2011, 10:07 AM

I approve of what Ralmeth says.

Otherwise I would be at a loss of words. :D

Corwinsky

07-14-2011, 03:54 PM

Definitely don't choose the TWF feats because Paladins don't have enough feats available to be able to take the whole TWF line with the any other feats that are necessary to them.

Improved critical might not be necessary.
With the new crafting system you might be able to find or buy on AH some usefull keen/impact weapons so that you always use one that has this attribute.
At higher level your GS min2 weapons will have keen, same for the epic antique axe.
it really depends on how much grinding you're planning to do to compensate the lack of this feat with the appropriate weapons.
If so you could consider taking an extra toughness instead.

unbongwah

07-14-2011, 04:07 PM

4) If I buy the 32 points build now, can I apply it to already existing chars with the old 28 points build? (Like get the extra +4 stats the next level or something?)
Not for free, no; you can Greater Reincarnate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reincarnation#Greater_Reincarnation) (GR) a 28-pt build into a 32-pt one, but it ain't cheap.

6) If I TR with a char that is 28 build, will I still get the 34 build?
Yes.

The other thing to note about tanks in DDO is they're pretty gear-intensive, so I'd be very wary of trying to make a 28-pt pally tank if you don't already have the resources to support it. My "beginner's tank" builds always focus on DPS first, hate & Intim second, then finally AC (with a side of shield feats if I can afford them).

Ungood

07-14-2011, 05:59 PM

Paladins are a Very versatile Build to play with.

Weapons:

To start with, you never need Two Handed Fighting to do good to decent damage with a two handed weapon on a single target: IE: Boss Mobs, Portals in Shroud, and pretty much every other encounter you will ever get into, not taking the Two Handed Fighting Feat will not hurt you. In this situation you will be using your Holy Sword anyway, so, a great sword or axe is the way to go (Shield it not your fiend in a Boss Mob Fight, unless you are main tank)

As such, if you decided to mostly Sword/Shield and then went 2HF for Raids/Groups, it would make minimal to near no difference in your performance in most raids.

So, if you do not feel like taking Two Handed Fighting, don't.

Two Weapon Fighting, is really not an option for a 28 Point Non-Drow build, I would suggest against it at all costs. At 32 Point, you can start playing with that.

Now, this is where I might get some flak, but, as it stands, if you are a Dwarf, you will want to take the Two handed Fighting, Since Dwarf Axes will deal Glancing Blow damage when used in one hand, and THF will increase your glancing blows, if you use a shield and a dwarf axe, with intimidate, you will be able to hit a wider range of mobs in a single swing, allow you to hold and even gain agro very quickly.

Also, note, if you are a human, consider Bastard Sword over Kopesh, for the same reason, the glancing blow range. (You could also dual wield the bastard swords when attacking portals, even if you do not take the TWF feat it won't make a difference)

But those are just considerations when it comes to weapons and what you can do.

Remember as a paladin, most of your damage will come from Smites, Sacrifices, and Capstone, not so much solely from the Str of your sword arm (Not that you can neglect that either)

Shield:

I would suggest you stay with the Tower Shield Feat and look into a greater/superior devotion or guard type tower shield.

Feats:

Toughness
Improved Critical: Slash
Mental Toughness or Extend

I do not suggest Power Attack as the tower shield gives you -2 to hit, and the power attack gives you -5 and that means you will miss a lot more then you might want to. But take it if you want to. You can always play with that as the time moves on.

Since you are going to tank your dex, you might want to take Brutal Throw,

I would not take Force of Personality, Or Luck of Hero's is optional, as paladins already get near to the best saves in the game if they bring up their CHA score.

Stats:

Your stat split is not bad, I would suggest:

16 Str
8 Dex (As you will max the Dex bonus on your armor very quickly with a + Dex item, given FP is +1 Dex)
15 Con
8 Wisdom (is fine, a +6 item and +2 Tome and your set)
16 Cha. (Now since paladins get saves and ac boons from their CHA score you do not want to let this slide, using the 2 build points from the Dex to the Cha, is better served for a THF or S&S Paladin)

Now, most of the time you want to keep taking the lay hands upgrades (to get a max of 4 of them) and Sovereign Host Faith Based belief line, for Unyielding Sovereignty.

32 Point Build:

As others have said: If/When you unlock/Buy the 32 Point Build, You can Greater Reincarnate (with a Greater heart of Wood) from a 28 to a 32 Point build, or you can level up to 20th and True Reincarnate into a 34 point Build (Yes, even if you start at 28, you will TR into a 34 point build)

And paladins can be a force to be reckoned with, just a matter of play style and build.

I am not sure if I missed anything, but, I hope I have given you some food for thought.

Happy Gaming.

Ralmeth

07-14-2011, 08:14 PM

Improved critical might not be necessary.
With the new crafting system you might be able to find or buy on AH some usefull keen/impact weapons so that you always use one that has this attribute.
At higher level your GS min2 weapons will have keen, same for the epic antique axe.
it really depends on how much grinding you're planning to do to compensate the lack of this feat with the appropriate weapons.
If so you could consider taking an extra toughness instead.

This advice is wrong...Op, please ignore. Improved critical is a must have feat. You will have so many weapons that don't have keen or impact on them. Also Paladins get the holy sword spell so they don't need to build a Min2 weapon. Or you could craft a boss beater. There is no other feat worth dropping improved critical for.

SilkofDrasnia

07-14-2011, 08:28 PM

just would like to say if you want to play a pally n have a good one u need atleast 32 point build even moreso if u want to be a tank pally

i suggest u look over junts build threads etc and also Anthios888

making a tank pally as a first build will be really hard as it very very dependant on gear

Claymorep

07-15-2011, 06:29 AM

This advice is wrong...Op, please ignore. Improved critical is a must have feat. You will have so many weapons that don't have keen or impact on them. Also Paladins get the holy sword spell so they don't need to build a Min2 weapon. Or you could craft a boss beater. There is no other feat worth dropping improved critical for.

+1 rep

I'm with Ralmeth at 100%. I want only to add that a keen weapon is anyway a lower dps weapon as its prefix can be filled with something better like holy burst.

The only case I'm studiing in which I will not take improved critical is for a tank pally that will use the new intended to be changed Epic Chimera fang (keen inside) if those Genasi suggestions will see the light but anyway not sure cause I'll be relegated to a single possible weapon for dps...

Ralmeth

07-15-2011, 09:58 AM

I do not suggest Power Attack as the tower shield gives you -2 to hit, and the power attack gives you -5 and that means you will miss a lot more then you might want to. But take it if you want to. You can always play with that as the time moves on.

This advice is also bad. As I mentioned previously, any good tank will have a DPS mode and power attack is critical to this DPS mode. With power attack turned on and a THF weapon even without the THF feats will grant you an extra +10 to damage on every swing. Why would you not want an extra 10 damage in a situation where you want to do as much damage as possible?

Ungood

07-15-2011, 10:04 AM

This advice is also bad. As I mentioned previously, any good tank will have a DPS mode and power attack is critical to this DPS mode. With power attack turned on and a THF weapon even without the THF feats will grant you an extra +10 to damage on every swing. Why would you not want an extra 10 damage in a situation where you want to do as much damage as possible?

As I said, play with it. I don't like the miss ratio of using it when I am using a tower shield. with the -2 and -5, giving a -7 to hit makes for a lot of misses. never seemed worth it in game terms.

If you want to say it a great, then so be it. But it would be around the last feat I would take like the one at 18th level, when you finally submit to doing just raids.

Mithran

07-15-2011, 10:17 AM

Unfortunately, OP, you've picked the most difficult Class to balance/play. Most Classes are min/max, ideally, with some rare and multiclass exceptions. Where Fighters are Skills-starved, Barbarians are Feat-starved and Paladins are Feat-starved, Skills-starved and Stat-point-starved.

To further complicate matters, Turbine just nerfed Intimidate and GTWF in favor of Barbarians and Fighters (or combinations of the two). I think they allowed Paladins a full two months of ruling the Intimidate field before taking it away (in retrospect, it was inevitable; DDO hates Paladins, by all appearances). This double-strike to my old main Nellas (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/nellas/) has turned me away from Paladins indefinitely. It was a huge waste of time and platinum for me.

Add to this the new player's desire to actually play Paladins, and you end up with a recipe for disaster.

OP, I would recommend buying a Lesser Heart of Wood from the DDO Store and following Ralmeth's advice, which is sound.

Provenance

07-17-2011, 12:54 AM

edited: to correct some grammar mistakes

I'll tell you my opinion about Intimidate, races, dex-based and AC. I AM AWARE I WILL RECEIVE CRITIQUES CUZ MOST PLAYERS LOVE TO ROLL HORCS AND WF, but sadly this is true.

• First topic, races: (my favorite)
Humans are still a solid choice, specially for FVS evoker and sorc (even thou WF get easier and cheaper healing, I consider the robots being a better choice), don't roll haflings (they do fine early/mid-game, but endgame dex is mostly useless even thou they have the guile), elves are probally the most underpowered race in the whole game, half-elves are fine but other races will usually do better, dwarves are good, but WF usually works better, drow (most times a poor fit). To be honest, I would never had imagine that I'd see more bards being horcs with that huge sword or axe than gnomes or races you are used from PnP. Watch TRs, I lost my count how many times I've seen a TR HOrc and WF, but what about other races?

• AC
Even if you go halfling dex/wis based pally/monk, on epics your ac will not be enough unless you have spent a big part of your life farming items and buying several packs, the gear is not nearly easy to grab. On epics toons with higher HP and damage are the ones who shine. Don't believe me? You have no idea of how many people start with dex-based toon and then TR to str-based.

• Intimidate
In DDO a big part of mobs and red nameds are immune to that, and even if they aren't, the endgame DC has to be way too high.

• Classes
Paladins are fun 'cause they have a nice survivability, HP and self-healing, can contribute to the party with some scrolls (high UMD) and quite decent damage output, good saves too, however in epics/endgame that WF barb or that HOrc fighter will shine more than your human paladin 'cause their damage is higher (haste boost/rage, etc).

Last advice: If you are a powergamer, go WF or HOrc, they are the best choices for melee.

And there will be people saying: "But my dwarf kensai is godlike and beats many HOrcs!" or "My half-elf sorcerer with pally dillettante has demigod saves and higher DCs than WFs!" - You still know these are the most overpowered races. They also say: "But DDO isn't all about Shroud, ToD, VoD, Hound and epics... but deep in your heart I know you want to build a toon that can do well from lv 1 to 20 and being capable of keeping up with other builds in epics. I'm SURE you are not building your toon to farm Delera's or lv in the Orchard. ;)

WF again...
Just reminding this is still DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, not Stars Wars.

Balkas

07-17-2011, 12:16 PM

Ungood

07-17-2011, 01:19 PM

You are suggesting Brutal Throw over Power Attack? That's pretty whacky.

I never suggested one over the other. Any implication on that is purely a fantastical fabrication on your part.

If you melee, you want Power Attack.

Totally depends.

If you had read the OP, they mention they want to Sword&Shield fight, and given Power Attack has a chance to increase your miss ratio by up to 25%.

Now for a Capstone KotC Paladin that is anywhere between 6 - 36 (6d6) Damage per swing by special abilities.

In a Sword&Shield fighting style, the numbers work against the Paladin to use Power Attack with a Tower Shield, unless the content is soo far below them that they can easily afford a -7 to hit and still hit on a 2 or better.

In that regard, the player would have to make the call, as if it is worth it or not, depending on their build and gear and the content they are running if they can afford that -5 To Hit.

Because on a single handed weapon (I used Bastard sword&Dwarf Axe, for the numbers, I did not check Khopesh, as the OP said they want to use 2H weapons for Grouping/Raiding, and Dwarf Axe and Bastard Sword gain glancing damage from THF line, while the Khopesh does not), if they so much as take a 20% increase in misses, the loss of the damage of Capstone and KotC will outshine any gain that Power Attack would have provided. Making it a very situational feat, (As I said, It would be a feat I might take at 18th when I succumbed to knowing I was going to be mostly raiding, and thus using 2H weapons) Because while using a 2H weapon, the +10 Damage from Power Attack easily Compensates a 25% miss increase.

Just saying.

Balkas

07-17-2011, 01:27 PM

I never suggested one over the other. Any implication on that is purely a fantastical fabrication on your part.

You said you didn't suggest taking Power Attack, and then you suggested that he might want to take Brutal Throw.

If you had read the OP

as the OP said they want to use 2H weapons for Grouping/Raiding

That's reason enough to take Power Attack right there.

Ungood

07-17-2011, 02:08 PM

You said you didn't suggest taking Power Attack, and then you suggested that he might want to take Brutal Throw.

Why are you making it so hard to respond to you in a civil manner?

Ok. Lets see. Maybe I can walk you though this, and clear up whatever confusion you might have, maybe I can't. That depends on your ability, or inability as the case may be. To think rationally and draw conclusions.

I suggested they might like Brutal Throw. This was not suggested in lieu of any other feat, but as a feat in it's own right. They might like the feat Brutal Throw. That ends that suggestion. Notice it is in it's own paragraph, and it's own area of the post.

I also suggested they may not like Power Attack. This was a separate suggestion, not linked to any other feat, or proposed other options. I simply said they may not like it because of the additional -2 to hit from a Tower Shield.

Now, how you have come to conclude that I have suggested one feat over another, I have no idea. My best guess would be that the pretty colors in my post may have confused you, and since I made them both the same color, your mind sought to draw a link to them. This is a fault on your end, as I put no link up between the two feats, or suggested in any way shape or form that they would have to be either or, or in lie of each other, or that both or neither may be taken .

As such, any illusions you have on this, are a product of your own imagination. and Wrong.

That's reason enough to take Power Attack right there.

Sure, maybe at 18th, as my last feat. :p

Also, no offense, but your use of colors and the way you are applying them makes it hard to read what you have written. You might want to work on that.

Balkas

07-17-2011, 02:41 PM

I don't suggest taking X.

I do suggest you take a look at Y.

What feat do you think I rank higher than the other?

You don't have to suggest to take Brutal Throw in lieu of another feat, because by taking Brutal Throw, you in fact *are* taking it in lieu of all the feats that you haven't taken.

Power Attack and Brutal Throw are already linked together, they are both feats. They both take up the same finite resource. It is not a fantastical fabrication to infer that by positively suggesting one and negatively suggesting the other, that you'd rather have one over the other.

Also, no offense, but your use of colors and the way you are applying them makes it hard to read what you have written. You might want to work on that.

I was implying your use of colors does the same. :)

TheDearLeader

07-17-2011, 02:53 PM

Did I misread, or did I see someone suggest Mental Toughness and Brutal Throw?

Is this a Flavor build? I'm confused.

Perhaps we suggest Augment Summoning next?

Indoran

07-17-2011, 03:11 PM

lvl 1 - Toughness
lvl 3 - Power Attack
lvl 6 - Combat Expertise
lvl 9 - Improved Critical Slashing

combat expertise... is a no no. You dont have points to take 13 int (or 12 and +1 tome)

My suggestion, forget about AC concentrate on hp and dps. That's how you get a tank done with low investment of resources, getting AC is very dependant on gear. and you are new to the quest.

katz

07-17-2011, 03:32 PM

Balkas

07-17-2011, 03:36 PM

quick question Re: power attack... considering all stats and buffs of a decent paladin (not a gimp, but not a uber-epic-geared toon either) would you still hit on everything above a 1 with power attack turned on? or would that number rise? everything above a 3? a 4? miss a full 25% of the time?

If we are talking about end game, Epics are the only place you'll need to occasionally turn it off. Or you could slot Destruction on your DT armor and just go to town on everything. :)

Stacking Improved Destruction and Destruction makes everyone's life easier.

TheDearLeader

07-17-2011, 03:39 PM

quick question Re: power attack... considering all stats and buffs of a decent paladin (not a gimp, but not a uber-epic-geared toon either) would you still hit on everything above a 1 with power attack turned on? or would that number rise? everything above a 3? a 4? miss a full 25% of the time?

I will refer you to This Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=330005) to answer that.

It is about Monks. But, much of the same applies.

TL;DR version of that thread? Regardless of class, PA is situational, dependent on the Mob being fought, the build, the gear, the buffs given, and the debuffs applied to mob.

katz

07-17-2011, 04:25 PM

hmm. interesting info. thanks.

if i may offer a tiny bit of insight... Ungood has played a paladin to cap. twice. he has a lower opinion of power attack for the same reason the OP of the monk thread was questioning it. turn on PA and start seeing "miss, miss, miss" since a great deal of a capstone KoTC paladin comes from "extra" damage (holy, weapons of good, smites, etc), misses are worth alot more. miss on a 3 or a 4, and suddenly you are doing a good deal less damage with power attack on than without, unlike a fighter or barb where most of their damage comes from the strength of their sword arm.

he still HAS PA on his current paladin (as do i on mine), he's just... not that impressed *shrug*

------------

mental toughness *can* be useful if you are casting a bit more. not everyone goes (or wants to go) full-****** min-max builds. despite what some people say, you are not "gimp" for choosing to have enough mana to heal a few times or choosing the enhancements to raise. optimal? no. but fun and hardy? yes.

Brutal Throw... yes, it's a flavor feat. it buffs your thrown damage a little if you have higher str than dex (which is what a good THF or sword-and-board paladin would have, right?) yeah ranged is gimp... but everyone should have a way to range. there are some times when you really DO just NEED it.

that being said, i wouldn't recommend taking BOTH mental toughness AND brutal throw on a feat-starved paladin. one or the other is enough flavor without cutting into useful damage feats you DO want.

augment summoning? really? :rolleyes:

TheDearLeader

07-17-2011, 04:31 PM

if i may offer a tiny bit of insight... Ungood has played a paladin to cap. twice.

May I offer you the insight that so have I? Aneist, signature. Click it.

he has a lower opinion of power attack for the same reason the OP of the monk thread was questioning it. turn on PA and start seeing "miss, miss, miss" since a great deal of a capstone KoTC paladin comes from "extra" damage (holy, weapons of good, smites, etc), misses are worth alot more. miss on a 3 or a 4, and suddenly you are doing a good deal less damage with power attack on than without, unlike a fighter or barb where most of their damage comes from the strength of their sword arm.

I am aware of how and where KotC damage comes from. As I am aware of the three enemies in the entire game where I have to worry about turning PA off (eMalicia, eLailat, Turigulon). And that, of course, is still situational dependent on my buffs/their debuffs.

mental toughness *can* be useful if you are casting a bit more. not everyone goes (or wants to go) full-****** min-max builds. despite what some people say, you are not "gimp" for choosing to have enough mana to heal a few times or choosing the enhancements to raise. optimal? no. but fun and hardy? yes.

Greater Mneumonic pots are cheap and plentiful. Although without Mental Toughness, and sitting at 600 something SP, I have to wonder just what the SP gets wasted on.

Brutal Throw... yes, it's a flavor feat. it buffs your thrown damage a little if you have higher str than dex (which is what a good THF or sword-and-board paladin would have, right?) yeah ranged is gimp... but everyone should have a way to range. there are some times when you really DO just NEED it.

Having a ranged weapon? Yes.
Expending a Feat on ranged combat? No.

that being said, i wouldn't recommend taking BOTH mental toughness AND brutal throw on a feat-starved paladin. one or the other is enough flavor without cutting into useful damage feats you DO want.

augment summoning? really? :rolleyes:

I just thought we were tossing out the most ridiculous feats possible. Perhaps I should have suggested Enlarge, instead? Or Nimble Fingers?

katz

07-17-2011, 04:35 PM

May I offer you the insight that so have I? Aneist, signature. Click it.

i was simply offering insight why Ungood suggested some of the things he did, not questioning your ability. not everyone thinks the same way. no need for you to get snippy with me.

Indoran

07-17-2011, 04:41 PM

hmm. interesting info. thanks.

if i may offer a tiny bit of insight... Ungood has played a paladin to cap. twice. he has a lower opinion of power attack for the same reason the OP of the monk thread was questioning it. turn on PA and start seeing "miss, miss, miss" since a great deal of a capstone KoTC paladin comes from "extra" damage (holy, weapons of good, smites, etc), misses are worth alot more. miss on a 3 or a 4, and suddenly you are doing a good deal less damage with power attack on than without, unlike a fighter or barb where most of their damage comes from the strength of their sword arm.

he still HAS PA on his current paladin (as do i on mine), he's just... not that impressed *shrug*

------------

Having played a paladin to cap twice... doesnt mean having played well. yes sometimes its necesary to turn it off... but not having P.A. is just plain silly.

Yes my Gilmara was a capped pally, now I tr'ed her.

Taking counsel from a guy that can't hit stuff is not a good idea also. Go with the destruction on DT armor counsel... its a good one.

In any case you can get + to hit from several sources, like shintao set, verik's set, spectral gloves, the arrow from weapons shipment, partial epic abishai set...

Also I fail to understand how talking about damage +5 on each hand or +10 on a two hander is not something to be impressed. just think about how much ppl pay for the scrolls of the claw set... just to get +2 damage more (heal amp is nice, but that's not the reason for most of the ppl out there to get that epic set)

On another topic: mental toughness is a waste of a feat. get some equipment to give you mana. You are feat starved as pally. getting archmagi or wiz VI can be enough most of the time.

Now I see some silly suggestions here and I just think about junts guide to pallies... thats where you should be spending your time:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542

Balkas

07-17-2011, 05:02 PM

I've capped 2 Paladins also, but if someone was asking for help and I gave them poor advice, I would hope that people would call me out on it too.

Brutal Throw is not a good choice of a feat for practically anybody, especially a feat-starved Paladin who is going to be using regular ol' melee weapons 99.9999999999999% of the time. If you're a Barbarian or Kensei who wants to be the champion hammer thrower of your day, go ahead and Brutal Throw it up! Other than that, it is not useful.

If you're wanting to be a casting Paladin, Maximize and Quicken should be higher on your priority list than Mental Toughness. You'll rarely run out of SP with a Wiz-SP-SP-Conc Op/Torq.

Using PA with a two hander is giving you the same amount of damage that TWENTY STRENGTH would add.

TheDearLeader

07-17-2011, 05:07 PM

i was simply offering insight why Ungood suggested some of the things he did, not questioning your ability. not everyone thinks the same way. no need for you to get snippy with me.

To highlight his gameplay experience while understating mine is a lie by omission. It insults me.

The fact that the rest of your post moves on to attempt to lecture me about how Paladins work only furthers that emotional response.

katz

07-17-2011, 08:04 PM

i was describing someone else's reasons. you perceived a lecture. not my intention, but its hard to read tone on the internet anyway. :-/ sorry for the perceived insult.

on another note, tho

Greater Mneumonic pots are cheap and plentiful.

that's funny. i must be doing something wrong, then. they always seem to be rare and horridly overpriced to me.

meh

TheDearLeader

07-17-2011, 08:18 PM

that's funny. i must be doing something wrong, then. they always seem to be rare and horridly overpriced to me.

meh

You thinking Majors or Greaters? I said/meant Greaters, the the baby pots.

katz

07-17-2011, 08:22 PM

hmm. i never really bought m pots. they all seemed overpriced to me. just used what i found. i'll look in to it

katz

07-17-2011, 09:16 PM

If you're wanting to be a casting Paladin, Maximize and Quicken should be higher on your priority list than Mental Toughness. You'll rarely run out of SP with a Wiz-SP-SP-Conc Op/Torq.

Ungood makes a possible recommendation to give more mana, and you give 2 recommendations to take it away faster? oookay *ponder*

i get the vibe from the OP that he's a bit newer. i really don't think he's gonna HAVE a pile of greensteel, raid gear, and epic equipment to hike his SP, HP, and to-hit.

poor guy hasn't even responded to all this. he probly took one look at all the bickering and said "F this" and ran away with his sanity.

Using PA with a two hander is giving you the same amount of damage that TWENTY STRENGTH would add.

hmm. i *thought* that PA doubled your str bonus when using a two hander. if thats true, wouldn't it be the equivalent of 10 str, not 20? granted, still nothing to sneeze at... but...
can someone chime in please? whats the answer?:confused:

Ungood

07-17-2011, 09:17 PM

May I offer you the insight that so have I? Aneist, signature. Click it.

I did.. Your paladin is very well.... Geared.

I'll leave it at that.

Greater Mneumonic pots are cheap and plentiful. Although without Mental Toughness, and sitting at 600 something SP, I have to wonder just what the SP gets wasted on.

Ok. Now I am not being rude, but if you built a paladin with the idea they are going to have to drink a Sp pot, you made a mistake someplace.

Now, I said Extend or Mental Toughness. In that regard, it is matter of either just having a longer buff or being able to cast a few more cure spells.

Secondly: if you believe they are cheep and plentiful, Allow me to refer you back to the point this is a new player, and it seems you have lost touch as to what it means to be new to this game, if you think these pots are "Cheep and Plentiful" maybe Lesser are kinda cheep (if not plentiful), and even then, If I am gonna carry them, they are going to be for the Healer or the Arcane in the group, and if I need to chug them that means I playing one of those roles. In which case, I am better off having mental toughness anyway.

Having a ranged weapon? Yes.
Expending a Feat on ranged combat? No.

So sue me. I don't like making a build that has to stand there with their thumb up their.. well polishing their great sword... while the rest of the group breaks out their bows and ledge kills a few scorpions.

And if you tanked your Dex (Which this builds plans to do) by around 12th level, unless you have brutal throw, you might as well not have a ranged weapon.

Even with that, however, I will admit it s flavor feat. But one that can be expended.

I just thought we were tossing out the most ridiculous feats possible. Perhaps I should have suggested Enlarge, instead? Or Nimble Fingers?

It was a good try, I'll give you that. But at least Augment Summoing would have helped their hires be a little better, the most redicilous suggestion for a Meta Magic feat was by

If you're wanting to be a casting Paladin, Maximize and Quicken should be higher on your priority list than Mental Toughness.

Taking a feat that adds 25 SP to double the effect of a spell that cost 12 SP to cast, now that is a worthless suggestion.

TheDearLeader

07-17-2011, 11:13 PM

I did.. Your paladin is very well.... Geared.

I'll leave it at that.

Thank you, I think?

He was my first toon to 20, my first toon to TR again to 20. I identified early on that compared to other BAB 20 classes, there may be to-hit issues. I identified ways to solve that, gear being one of multiple areas focused upon.

Ok. Now I am not being rude, but if you built a paladin with the idea they are going to have to drink a Sp pot, you made a mistake someplace.

Abbot. Died in Inferno. Lost mah SPs. wanted Divine Favor/Zeal when I popped back up. Last time I remember drinking a Pot. And no, I don't use Torc/Concordant Opp - I know that's popular, but I guess it's just not me.

I don't normally use them - but I do level toons. And while leveling them, these little blue potions pop in chests. I put them in the shared bank, I accumulate them on one toon. Baby pots for the Paladin (to be passed to whatever the next baby caster/Bard is), Majors split evenly between the Spellsinger and Sorc.

Do I often use potions on any of my blue bars? No. But maybe that's why I feel like they're so plentiful - because I don't actually have to use the ones I pull.

Now, I said Extend or Mental Toughness. In that regard, it is matter of either just having a longer buff or being able to cast a few more cure spells.

I don't cast cure spells. For that matter, I hardly ever use my Lay on Hands - so little that I've thought about dropping the AP for the extra ones. If I'm soloing, I pop a Heal Scroll. If I'm in a party, I'm in range of masses, and keep on truckin.

Secondly: if you believe they are cheep and plentiful, Allow me to refer you back to the point this is a new player, and it seems you have lost touch as to what it means to be new to this game, if you think these pots are "Cheep and Plentiful" maybe Lesser are kinda cheep (if not plentiful), and even then, If I am gonna carry them, they are going to be for the Healer or the Arcane in the group, and if I need to chug them that means I playing one of those roles. In which case, I am better off having mental toughness anyway.

I addressed this above; I don't use them, so they tend to pile up. Even casting Fire Resist on everyone in a raid is only 180 SP. Still plenty for Zeal/Divine Favor.

So sue me. I don't like making a build that has to stand there with their thumb up their.. well polishing their great sword... while the rest of the group breaks out their bows and ledge kills a few scorpions.

And if you tanked your Dex (Which this builds plans to do) by around 12th level, unless you have brutal throw, you might as well not have a ranged weapon.

Even with that, however, I will admit it s flavor feat. But one that can be expended.

If you say so. If I'm really that worried about ranged combat one day, I'll Epic the Noxious Fang.

For now, I rock my Chill Shard. Oh yeah baby, the Chill Shard.

Feats are a finite number. Obtaining gear to make up for a perceived lack in a focus area is only a matter of time. I choose time over wasting finite values.

It was a good try, I'll give you that. But at least Augment Summoing would have helped their hires be a little better, the most redicilous suggestion for a Meta Magic feat was by

[MAXIMIZE]

Taking a feat that adds 25 SP to double the effect of a spell that cost 12 SP to cast, now that is a worthless suggestion.

I do believe Junts would be the first to tell you why Maximize is useful on a combat-oriented, self-healing build. Although, SP Costs were changed as of U9, so I'm not sure the same still applies. Again, I don't cast SP-based cures; guess I'm crazy like that.

Ungood

07-17-2011, 11:35 PM

I do believe Junts would be the first to tell you why Maximize is useful on a combat-oriented, self-healing build. Although, SP Costs were changed as of U9, so I'm not sure the same still applies. Again, I don't cast SP-based cures; guess I'm crazy like that.

Only if they were a cleric. A Paladin has no Offensive spells, and their best healing spell (Cure Serious) is 12 points a cast, even Quicken which costs 10 SP would be a wasted feat.

The division between you and I, is I play a heavy casting Paladin, and I do heal the party and myself with my Cure Spells. I have found this method to be quite effective in many situations.

As for the gear grind. To each their own on that, I am sure some might not see the virtue of running the same quest 20 or even 100 times to compensate for what one feat could provide.

A feat, I might add, that after having run those quests many times over is quite cheap to swap out at Fred. I suppose if I ever got around to epic gear grinding, and got an epic Chimeria Fang, I might then have a discussion with Fred abut that Brutal Throw, till then, I find it quite handy to keep a Holy Hammer and Brutal Throw at the ready.

But again, that is me.

TheDearLeader

07-18-2011, 01:07 AM

Only if they were a cleric. A Paladin has no Offensive spells, and their best healing spell (Cure Serious) is 12 points a cast, even Quicken which costs 10 SP would be a wasted feat.

The division between you and I, is I play a heavy casting Paladin, and I do heal the party and myself with my Cure Spells. I have found this method to be quite effective in many situations.

As for the gear grind. To each their own on that, I am sure some might not see the virtue of running the same quest 20 or even 100 times to compensate for what one feat could provide.

A feat, I might add, that after having run those quests many times over is quite cheap to swap out at Fred. I suppose if I ever got around to epic gear grinding, and got an epic Chimeria Fang, I might then have a discussion with Fred abut that Brutal Throw, till then, I find it quite handy to keep a Holy Hammer and Brutal Throw at the ready.

But again, that is me.

House Ds and Ps Epics items are fairly easy to acquire, because of how few seals/shards are in the loot tables. If someone pulls a Shard in Epic TTT, there's a 1 in 8 chance it's the one you're looking for. Naturally, the same applies to House P, except eBigTop gives you 1 Shard per person for a total of 19 items.

Translation : its less grindy than looking for a Planar Gird, but with a higher difficulty.

And who said I didn't heal people? They get LoH.. sometimes >.> Certainly, they get them more than I give them to myself. And I can pop a scroll on someone else just as easily as I can myself.

And again.. the U9 Spell pass in general made curatives spells cheaper. The usage of Maximize came back when spells cost more. Cure Serious, for example, would have cost 25 SP. While I don't really have a dog in this fight, I think the reasoning behind using Maximize was that less time spent healing is more time spent in combat? I 'm not sure.

Balkas

07-18-2011, 01:31 AM

doubled your str bonus when using a two hander. if thats true, wouldn't it be the equivalent of 10 str, not 20? granted, still nothing to sneeze at... but...
can someone chime in please? whats the answer?:confused:

It adds 10 damage when wielding a two handed weapon.

And again.. the U9 Spell pass in general made curatives spells cheaper. The usage of Maximize came back when spells cost more. Cure Serious, for example, would have cost 25 SP. While I don't really have a dog in this fight, I think the reasoning behind using Maximize was that less time spent healing is more time spent in combat? I 'm not sure.

Yes. And with Torq and Conc Op and a decent healing amplification, you're basically a rechargeable battery. Quicken + Maximized CSWs are also useful for when you're tanking big things like Horoth, and Quickened Remove Curses are nice for tanking Suulo (which you should be doing in ToD since you most likely generate the most aggro).

I don't really think Extend is super useful at endgame anymore; your buffs last long enough at that point.

Claymorep

07-18-2011, 05:38 AM

I prefer to don't participate anymore in this tread...

There are so useless and wrong advices I can understand why Pallies when they join a lfm need a look at "myddo"...
Everyone is free to play his pally as he wants in solo or for rpg sessions, but in party You need do be of some help, efficient and maxed. I hope that some good advices can be taken in consideration and putted in trash bad ones or we'll have an invasion of lol-based builded pallies that Epic Devil Assault is more likely a Tank division that encounter a spearmen militia in an open field...

Ungood

07-18-2011, 09:34 AM

While I don't really have a dog in this fight, I think the reasoning behind using Maximize was that less time spent healing is more time spent in combat? I 'm not sure.

As opposed to any feat you listed, Maxmize is the only feat that would actually hurt the builds ability to cast, as it makes the CSW spell cost 3 (25 for the Meta magic vs 12 for the spell) times what it should for 2 times the healing effect, so by taking this feat you would be throwing away spell points. It is not just worthless, it is a bad feat to take.

As for a Paladin's healing spell, Most of the use it gets it intermittent healing or to save an unconscious party member. I suppose if you got enough healing amp and enough devotion items you could do a pretty decent job of healing with a CSW spell, which would require you to focus on that, (not a bad choice IMHO) but even then, Maxmize would still be a horrible feat to take as it makes the spell cost you more and give you less. Which last time I checked, is epitome of what bad build advice is.
Just saying.

Ungood

07-18-2011, 09:54 AM

hmm. i *thought* that PA doubled your str bonus when using a two hander. if thats true, wouldn't it be the equivalent of 10 str, not 20? granted, still nothing to sneeze at... but...
can someone chime in please? whats the answer?:confused:

Power Attack gives +5 for 1 handed weapons and +10 for Two Handed Weapons. This is a Flat Gain.

Since Two Handed weapons have a Str Modifier for Damage of 1.5, that means you get +1.5 for every 2 Str you gain beyond a 10 Str (with 10 Str being the Zero mark)

So, Power Attack would be equal to gaining 13 Str (at 10.5 Extra Damage) but also equal to loosing 10 Str when it comes To Hit (-5 To hit) So even with a 2H weapon the overall gain vs the Loss, is almost in balance. (Still +3 Str is nice, I can respect that)

I have found nothing that supports that Power Attack is affected by the Critical Multiplier, if someone could get me an answer to that, that would be greatly appreciated. If it not part of the base damage, then it worth a lot less then it would be if it was part of the base damage.

As I have said several times now, the only time Power Attack shines is when the content is so easy (or below the gear level of the build) that they can afford to loose -5 to hit and still hit on a 1 or 2. How this is accomplished it is a separate issue. Perhaps you all might wish to give this guy a shopping list as to what they will need to make your build suggestions work.

I would love to see the "easy to get" stuff that gets listed.

elraido

07-18-2011, 09:58 AM

Personally, my build is more along the lines of: don't heal other party members, kill things, let team members die, raise the cleric as all the bad guys can't hit me, let him do the healing, kill more things, continue the mission. :D

If you are missing that much with power attack on with a tower shield, your build has obvious issues. My main isn't a str build, he uses power attack (or combat ex) with a tower shield 98% of the time and the only things he has trouble hitting: eMalicia, eLailat, Turigulon, and eVon6 Djinn. You know what the solution is? Turn those off, put on the eSwashbuckler and continue to miss on a 1 maybe a 2.

Balkas

07-18-2011, 10:21 AM

Power Attack gives +5 for 1 handed weapons and +10 for Two Handed Weapons. This is a Flat Gain.

Since Two Handed weapons have a Str Modifier for Damage of 1.5, that means you get +1.5 for every 2 Str you gain beyond a 10 Str (with 10 Str being the Zero mark)

So, Power Attack would be equal to gaining 13 Str (at 10.5 Extra Damage) but also equal to loosing 10 Str when it comes To Hit (-5 To hit) So even with a 2H weapon the overall gain vs the Loss, is almost in balance. (Still +3 Str is nice, I can respect that)

I have found nothing that supports that Power Attack is affected by the Critical Multiplier, if someone could get me an answer to that, that would be greatly appreciated. If it not part of the base damage, then it worth a lot less then it would be if it was part of the base damage.

As I have said several times now, the only time Power Attack shines is when the content is so easy (or below the gear level of the build) that they can afford to loose -5 to hit and still hit on a 1 or 2. How this is accomplished it is a separate issue. Perhaps you all might wish to give this guy a shopping list as to what they will need to make your build suggestions work.

I would love to see the "easy to get" stuff that gets listed.

Power Attack damage is multiplied in the case of criticals.

Power Attack is on practically all the time at end game.

"Shopping List" - All level ups into Strength, +6 Strength item, Holy Sword, Divine Favor, KotC

If you don't have Conc Op/Torq, I could see how you'd think Maximize wasn't useful. Get those items and try it out :-)

Ungood

07-18-2011, 10:24 AM

If you don't have Conc Op/Torq, I could see how you'd think Maximize wasn't useful. Get those items and try it out :-)

I understand that this is your advice and you think it is right, because you are giving it, but wasting a feat to do less healing for more spell point cost is bad build advice. I think I'll stick with brutal thrown then take that feat suggestion. TYVM.

Con Op and Torq, those are a dime a dozen, I think I'll go get one today even, Oh wait.....

Ungood

07-18-2011, 10:27 AM

Power Attack damage is multiplied in the case of criticals.

Can you back this up?

Power Attack is on practically all the time at end game.

That is because held mobs are easy to hit.

Ungood

07-18-2011, 11:06 AM

I will admit that I have heard that it stacks with the crit multiplier., but I never saw anything in the compendium or wiki that backed it up.

So I took my pally to Revers Refuge, and started to kill Ice Giants with my Starter Great Axe, (Gotta test with something)

Typically I saw an increase of up to 30 extra damage, which seems good on the surface, however, I had Orcish Power Attack on, and should have been doing in the realm of 36 (only took the first tier, so +6/-6, which should be +12/-6 for 2H weapons), crit on a great Axe is x3, so it should have made a 36 static damage extra damage. Which did not seem to be the case.

There was more, I'll admit, but it seemed to be more in the range of a low as around 20 and up to around 30 more damage, which seemed odd. My Lowest Crit without Power Attack was 92, my Lowest with Power attack was 114. (yes, yes, I am sure this where you will tell me. you Crit for over 9000 on every hit or some such e-peen thing) but it something to note.

I'm going to rest now and try again, and see what the numbers show. Maybe I'll get a rare in the process.

Edit Added: Just had some more fun.

It seems it adds to the crit multiplier, and trying to play with all the numbers, was starting to get a bit annoying, in any case, yes, it adds, and it can be easily tested (as long as you find a mob you can hit enough times to check it out) I also killed that wolf three times. So fun was had by all.

elraido

07-18-2011, 11:30 AM

Yes, power attack is in the crit multiplier. Khopesh that is an extra 15 points of damage on a crit. Remember with improved crit, that is on a 17-20. 1/5 of the time you would be doing that extra 15 points of damage.

Balkas

07-18-2011, 11:58 AM

I understand that this is your advice and you think it is right, because you are giving it, but wasting a feat to do less healing for more spell point cost is bad build advice. I think I'll stick with brutal thrown then take that feat suggestion. TYVM.

Con Op and Torq, those are a dime a dozen, I think I'll go get one today even, Oh wait.....

I guess it's just a matter of what you think is more valuable, time or SP. When you get to the point where you have lots of SP and it regenerates...

What GS items do you make for your Paladin? You don't need to make a weapon since you have Holy Sword. Conc Op Wiz/SP/SP and Min II HP/HP/HP are my choices.

Epic DQ can be difficult on a Paladin since we're Lawful Good, but it's not particularly hard if your party knows what its doing.

Ungood

07-18-2011, 12:20 PM

I guess it's just a matter of what you think is more valuable, time or SP. When you get to the point where you have lots of SP and it regenerates...

It is about making a sub par build that becomes gear dependent, which is bad build advice from the start. I suppose if you wanted to make a flavor build, and be a little off the mainstream rocker, just to see how far you can push something, meh, maybe I might give up my neck slot for to wear a torq and a go with a con-op on my pally. But. Maxmize will still be a waste of a feat.

What GS items do you make for your Paladin? You don't need to make a weapon since you have Holy Sword. Conc Op Wiz/SP/SP and Min II HP/HP/HP are my choices.Actually the only GS item I have on my Paladin is GS falchion, because that weapon type is not available in Holy Sword form, and the larger crit range lends itself well to Smite and Sacrifice, Thus a Green Steel weapon for a paladin is still a good investment. I took Double Pos, (because believe this or not not everyone has a pile of LDS and other large mats to toss on their any-build and spare cleansing stones laying around.) and the raise dead clicky is handy.

And I am not the only one that has acknowledged that Power Attack is situational, with its value being inversely proportional to the challenge of the instance.

Now, With that said and done, may I refer you to this topic (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=240780) if you need to recall what it means to be a starting player.

hermespan

07-18-2011, 12:31 PM

1) What should I do? Is it possible to go DPS as a paladin and actualy be good enough for the party? Or I should not give up the Intimi-tank build and retake the Tower Shield feat? (Please refer to what feats should I change aside from Force of personality, I love my saves, and why, as well as enhancements).
2) Right now I use a + 4 acid greatsword of pure good, dealing about 22+5+5 damage with it per swing, the highest damage I ever reached with this paladin was when I used an extalted smite and got a crit, something that rarely happens. How good is that for DPS?
3) If AC is REALLY that useless, how come all the high level people are still wearing armor? Why not just wear a robe with the same properties of an armor and suffer less Armor penalty?
4) If I buy the 32 points build now, can I apply it to already existing chars with the old 28 points build? (Like get the extra +4 stats the next level or something?)
5) If I TR this char, will I lose all my crafting levels? If you guys tell me this char is a piece of **** and paladins are absolutly useless, I'll just powerlevel to 20 and TR to something better, assuming I can keep my crafting levels.
6) If I TR with a char that is 28 build, will I still get the 34 build?

Thank you for your patient, I know I write too much stuff. Like now. I should stop, but I don't. See? Stupid.
3)- armor isn't useless. some builds can achieve useful AC. The problem with AC builds is doing enough DPS to hold aggro so you can put your tank to good use and this is where the art of tanking and building a tank comes into play. You need to do enough dps to keep the aggro off of other players, while having enough AC to be useful. It's not easy. I'd consider going DPS/HP all the way for your first character.

On dps characters armor is usually chosen for the other properties on it moreso than the AC boost.

4)- look into reincarnation you can reincarnate to a 32 pt build. I think it's greater reincarnation (greater heart of wood from store).
5)- there are no useless classes, only useless players. When you reincarnate you can fix your build. I strongly suggest you scour the forums for paladin builds and find one that meets your playstyle, then use it instead of trying to design your own paladin build. After you gain some experience building characters you can strike out on your own and design a build, but it's highly recommended that you try tried and tested builds and learn why they work.
6)- yes

Indoran

07-18-2011, 12:37 PM

If you had read the OP, they mention they want to Sword&Shield fight, and given Power Attack has a chance to increase your miss ratio by up to 25%.

Now for a Capstone KotC Paladin that is anywhere between 6 - 36 (6d6) Damage per swing by special abilities.

In a Sword&Shield fighting style, the numbers work against the Paladin to use Power Attack with a Tower Shield, unless the content is soo far below them that they can easily afford a -7 to hit and still hit on a 2 or better.

In that case one should be telling him maybe its not such a great idea to use S&B... as it's been long known it's gimp and with the way intimidate works now it's no good.

Specially with a tower shield (for which you as a pally need to take an extra feat in a very feat starved class) Also as a KoTC (I would never think of making a KoTC S&B) you wont have the AC you need to tank above level 16 +/- (or you may with LOTS of stuff that damage your dps and you wont hold aggro against a bad equipped barb)

And if Ungood accomplished it, it may be because he has way more time invested and more equipment.

Take the extra Kotc damage, take lorinthor's extra damage and use either THF or TWF that way with divine righteousness you can hold aggro. Forget that AC ever existed when you hit the Vale of twilight. Try to get as many hp as possible. Normally tanks survive thx to the healer keeping them up.

Why is that? AC gear is a pain to get. If you still want to AC tank... go ahead, but you better know that you will have to grind lots of content for 1 point of ac there and 2 over there.

1) What should I do? Is it possible to go DPS as a paladin and actualy be good enough for the party? Or I should not give up the Intimi-tank build and retake the Tower Shield feat? (Please refer to what feats should I change aside from Force of personality, I love my saves, and why, as well as enhancements).

Specially in the Vale and Amrath you will shine in dps if you are KoTC. and even more when you get the lorinthor's set. And yes, dump force of personality, you dont need it. I never took it and I did just fine.

2) Right now I use a + 4 acid greatsword of pure good, dealing about 22+5+5 damage with it per swing, the highest damage I ever reached with this paladin was when I used an extalted smite and got a crit, something that rarely happens. How good is that for DPS?

Go for a falchion. imo that damage is low. get improve crit, that way you will see lots of crits with smites. I used 2 rapiers (I was a drow, as it is the easy way to get a TWF pally with only 28 pt. builds) it was fairly common (around 30% of the time) to see 400+ crits on each hand only on the main damage, along with the bursts and the rest of the stuff. Pally is excellent burst damage, that's why it's important to get more chances at an exalted smite than to get higher weapon base damage.

Also regarding crafting a GS weapon... some ppl said dont do it... I would say, craft a Li2. It's way better than the min2 for trash and for the DR penetration use your pally holy sword for now.

3) If AC is REALLY that useless, how come all the high level people are still wearing armor? Why not just wear a robe with the same properties of an armor and suffer less Armor penalty?
Lots of ppl actually use dragontouched robes. I myself have a DT robe and a DT leather armor. As hermespan said, what matters are the properties you have on the armor.

4) If I buy the 32 points build now, can I apply it to already existing chars with the old 28 points build? (Like get the extra +4 stats the next level or something?)
I think you can do that with a greater reincarnation.

5) If I TR this char, will I lose all my crafting levels? If you guys tell me this char is a piece of **** and paladins are absolutly useless, I'll just powerlevel to 20 and TR to something better, assuming I can keep my crafting levels.
You will keep them, I just tr'ed my pally and she still has her crafting levels.

6) If I TR with a char that is 28 build, will I still get the 34 build?
yes.

hermespan

07-18-2011, 12:41 PM

As I have said several times now, the only time Power Attack shines is when the content is so easy (or below the gear level of the build) that they can afford to loose -5 to hit and still hit on a 1 or 2. How this is accomplished it is a separate issue. Perhaps you all might wish to give this guy a shopping list as to what they will need to make your build suggestions work..

+2 to-hit item (such as Tumbleweed)
+4 greater heroism
Strength is not a dump stat on non casters
Finesse is not a solution when you made strength a dump stat
weapon focus/greater weapon focus

Even characters that don't have str maxed can still hit with PA running. It's all about your gear and build... I run PA in all content at level above level 9 or so and have no problem hitting. The ONLY time I don't is when fighting some mini bosses that have excessive AC (such as some of the mini bosses in shroud).

Generally I take PA at around level 9. Before that, yea I agree you aren't going to be hitting much with it running.

As soon as your actual attack is around +5 above your BAB, you shouldn't have any issues running PA. That's my personal guideline on when to take it.

TheDearLeader

07-18-2011, 01:12 PM

As opposed to any feat you listed, Maxmize is the only feat that would actually hurt the builds ability to cast, as it makes the CSW spell cost 3 (25 for the Meta magic vs 12 for the spell) times what it should for 2 times the healing effect, so by taking this feat you would be throwing away spell points. It is not just worthless, it is a bad feat to take.

As for a Paladin's healing spell, Most of the use it gets it intermittent healing or to save an unconscious party member. I suppose if you got enough healing amp and enough devotion items you could do a pretty decent job of healing with a CSW spell, which would require you to focus on that, (not a bad choice IMHO) but even then, Maxmize would still be a horrible feat to take as it makes the spell cost you more and give you less. Which last time I checked, is epitome of what bad build advice is.
Just saying.

Again, most people took Maximize when CSW cost twice as much as it did now. Eff, I've tried saying it three different ways, and I don't even use curative spells. That said, if these people have the SP do to it constantly, why would they *NOT* want to get the most bang for their buck, in respect to TIME spent casting it which is TIME spent not swinging your sword?

Sure, they can cast CSW twice to get the same effect. At twice the casting time, plus a cooldown. If they have the SP to continue the fight? Well then, Maximize was a good choice of a feat for them. You're being impractical in just assuming because it's bad SP efficiency that it is the one, and only, factor here.

It is about making a sub par build that becomes gear dependent, which is bad build advice from the start.

All builds are gear dependent. Con +6, GFL, Heavy Fort, Toughness on an item. They have to come from somewhere. Sorry that his particular piece of gear doesn't agree with you. On gear..

Actually the only GS item I have on my Paladin is GS falchion, because that weapon type is not available in Holy Sword form, and the larger crit range lends itself well to Smite and Sacrifice, Thus a Green Steel weapon for a paladin is still a good investment. I took Double Pos, (because believe this or not not everyone has a pile of LDS and other large mats to toss on their any-build and spare cleansing stones laying around.) and the raise dead clicky is handy.

I'm fairly sure that a Holy Sword Greatsword outdamages a Double Pos GS Falchion in the case of bosses with DR/Good and Silver or DR/Good and Cold Iron, even on Normal difficulty settings.

Malicia's only DR/Good, so I guess you're fine there. But really, you've made a trash beater. And no one cares what you use on trash.

And I am not the only one that has acknowledged that Power Attack is situational, with its value being inversely proportional to the challenge of the instance.

I will refer you to This Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=330005) to answer that.

TL;DR version of that thread? Regardless of class, PA is situational, dependent on the Mob being fought, the build, the gear, the buffs given, and the debuffs applied to mob.

Page 2 bro. Being that we're only on Page 3, I'm kind of disappointed.

Also... you really didn't know that Power Attack applied to base damage, therefore to Crits/Divine Sacrifice crits/Exalted Smite crits? Well, obviously you've figured that out now, but I'm not quite sure how you missed it. I guess if you never toggle the feat...

elraido

07-18-2011, 03:03 PM

In that case one should be telling him maybe its not such a great idea to use S&B... as it's been long known it's gimp and with the way intimidate works now it's no good.

Specially with a tower shield (for which you as a pally need to take an extra feat in a very feat starved class) Also as a KoTC (I would never think of making a KoTC S&B) you wont have the AC you need to tank above level 16 +/- (or you may with LOTS of stuff that damage your dps and you wont hold aggro against a bad equipped barb)

.

Huh. I must have missed that memo. Funny how I can easily grab and maintain aggro on my main...all the while not using hate gear or abilities...in ToD or VoD. All the while maintaing a self buffed ac of 82-84 with no buff lasting less than 1:30 (haste and recitation). But yes, if there is no movement, I WILL be in stance for that incite bonus.

I also want to point out a couple things about "hard to grind" gear on an AC build. There are basically 2-3 "hard" pieces to get.
1) Chattering Ring. Yes, it can be a pain. But now you have a couple of other options with putting it on DT armor and there is one other way to get +3 dodge...I just can't remember off the top of my head

2) OPTIONAL. Leviks Defender Tower Shield. To get the same ac, you could also have a top tier Epic Swashbuckler from the event. Or you can avoid this completely and go DEX. If that is the case, get Icy Remnants...easily farmable in the Sub.

The on my main, the hard ones to get were Chattering ring (took 20 titan runs, saw it drop 2 times though before that). And the Leviks bracers...got those on my 20th. If you want the Defender of Siberys set...if it drops for anyone else, odds are they will give it to you. Plain and simple. It is a niche build that most people aren't going for. You SHOULD be able to get one in around 20 runs.

So you are looking at maybe 6 months of casual runnning of raids for that gear. The rest is just building around your dex stat to get the max out of your armor bonus....maxing your auras....etc. It isn't that hard.

katz

07-18-2011, 03:13 PM

Again, most people took Maximize when CSW cost twice as much as it did now. Eff, I've tried saying it three different ways, and I don't even use curative spells. That said, if these people have the SP do to it constantly, why would they *NOT* want to get the most bang for their buck, in respect to TIME spent casting it which is TIME spent not swinging your sword?

Sure, they can cast CSW twice to get the same effect. At twice the casting time, plus a cooldown. If they have the SP to continue the fight? Well then, Maximize was a good choice of a feat for them. You're being impractical in just assuming because it's bad SP efficiency that it is the one, and only, factor here.

if you DON'T have the mana, you gotta change your tactic. i know, i know, torq/con-op/SP item blah blah.

All builds are gear dependent. Con +6, GFL, Heavy Fort, Toughness on an item. They have to come from somewhere. Sorry that his particular piece of gear doesn't agree with you. On gear..

those are basics. everyone should have those, regardless of class. you started spouting multiple epic items, greensteel pieces, and raid gear. tumbleweed? torq? epic abashi set? really? YES those are very nice powerful items, but they take TIME to acquire. it's like you've lost touch with what it's like to be a new player. heck, my capped FvS and my TRed sorc don't even have torqs yet, and its not for lack of trying!

I'm fairly sure that a Holy Sword Greatsword outdamages a Double Pos GS Falchion in the case of bosses with DR/Good and Silver or DR/Good and Cold Iron, even on Normal difficulty settings.

duh

Malicia's only DR/Good, so I guess you're fine there. But really, you've made a trash beater. And no one cares what you use on trash.

yup. its great at beating down trash. the raise dead clickie is pretty handy when the cleric doesn't quite make it, too

meh.

elraido

07-18-2011, 03:20 PM

I do agree that every Paladin should have a trip pos weapon of some sort though. Especially when you are capped.

Balkas

07-19-2011, 12:21 PM

It is about making a sub par build that becomes gear dependent, which is bad build advice from the start. I suppose if you wanted to make a flavor build, and be a little off the mainstream rocker, just to see how far you can push something, meh, maybe I might give up my neck slot for to wear a torq and a go with a con-op on my pally. But. Maxmize will still be a waste of a feat.

Actually the only GS item I have on my Paladin is GS falchion, because that weapon type is not available in Holy Sword form, and the larger crit range lends itself well to Smite and Sacrifice, Thus a Green Steel weapon for a paladin is still a good investment. I took Double Pos, (because believe this or not not everyone has a pile of LDS and other large mats to toss on their any-build and spare cleansing stones laying around.) and the raise dead clicky is handy.

And I am not the only one that has acknowledged that Power Attack is situational, with its value being inversely proportional to the challenge of the instance.

Now, With that said and done, may I refer you to this topic (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=240780) if you need to recall what it means to be a starting player.

Pure Paladins who want to contribute DPS to a party don't have much leeway when it comes to choices in Feats. (This comes from a "I want to be useful at endgame perspective")

IC
PA
TWF, ITWF, GTWF (Or THF, ITHF, GTHF)
Toughness

That leaves one feat for non-humans and two feats for humans. If you're THFing some might say ditch the feats and just twitch, but Pallies have enough clicking to do already in my opinion (and I would rather go TWF anyway for triple Exalted Smites, unless you have ESOS of course :)).

Leveling up, I would suggest Extend. Keeping DF and Zeal up all the time can be a hassle when they don't last very long. Once you hit 20, I'd probably advise switching to something else. We have less DPS than Fighters and Barbarians, so we need to focus on our main advantage over them: Self-Sufficiency. Empower Healing is something I'd advise non-humans to take. With Devotion enhancements, Superior Ardor pots, and a good Healing Amp, you can definitely keep yourself going. Quicken is also an option. Since Concentration isn't going to help you when you're getting whacked for 90 points of damage, Paladins with Quicken are often used to Remove Curses on fleshie Suulo tanks.

Humans have it better off. Most take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh with their extra feat, but it's now very common to use the Brigand's Cutlasses from CC and use those 2 feats on Quicken and Maximize. It basically gives you a bunch of mini Lay on Hands - 200ish point CSWs that you can use instantly without retreating from battle. Conc Op and the Torq give you even more. You can top off with Wands in between battles.

At end game, all melees focusing on DPS need Power Attack. Not taking it is a disservice to your party or raid. Things aren't difficult to hit, and things that die faster take up less time and resources.

As far as only having a GS Falchion goes, you should at least make a tier 2 Wiz/SP Conc Op item when you can. It'll provide +6 Wisdom and an additional 200SP.

Ungood

07-19-2011, 12:50 PM

Pure Paladins who want to contribute DPS to a party don't have much leeway when it comes to choices in Feats. (This comes from a "I want to be useful at endgame perspective")

IC
PA
TWF, ITWF, GTWF (Or THF, ITHF, GTHF)
Toughness

That leaves one feat for non-humans and two feats for humans. If you're THFing some might say ditch the feats and just twitch, but Pallies have enough clicking to do already in my opinion (and I would rather go TWF anyway for triple Exalted Smites, unless you have ESOS of course :)).

Leveling up, I would suggest Extend.

Your good advice ended at this point.

Balkas

07-19-2011, 01:38 PM

Your good advice ended at this point.

I apologize my end game perspective doesn't suit you.

Although I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to make at least a tier 2 Wiz/SP Conc Op for your Paladin. He's currently using a robe for Archmagi and Time Sensing Goggles for Wisdom. Also, do you not have the Amrath pack? If you don't, I'm not sure how much weight your criticisms of my opinions of end game carry. If you do, there are a whole bunch of named +6 Con/GFL belts that get vendored that someone would give you if you asked nicely. It'd definitely be better than your +5 Con/LFL belt. What were your starting stats, anyway? You seem to have lots of Wisdom. You only need 14 Wisdom *with* an item, further Wisdom bonuses only give you 29 extra spell points per level at 20.

Is your advice to use no Metamagics at all for healing? You might as well be wand whipping.

As far as when to take Power Attack, it's all a matter of what is available to you.

Anger's/Pathfinder's Set + Goggles of Insight + Guild Heroism potions means I have it on pretty much all the time at the beginning of the game (where 10 extra damage is a lot!) and once you hit 9, you can GH yourself with Planar Girds.

JohnnyDangerously

07-19-2011, 03:19 PM

If you dont have 32 point, then a pally tank is not a good idea. If you want to go twf then go drow. If thf then go human.

Twf drow
Str 16
Dex 16 need a 1 tome for gtwf
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

Human thf
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16

Drow feats
Twf, itwf, gtwf
Toughness
Imp crit slash
Pa
Maximize

Human feats
Thf, ithf, gthf
Toughness
Imp crit slash
Pa
Maximize
Extend

Make sure you sart with at least 16 cha. With a 2 tome you will qualify for dm3.

Always run with pa on. Spam divine favor and divine power all the time.

Dont worry about the 8 wis. A +6 item will get you 14 so you can cast highest lvl spells.

elraido

07-19-2011, 03:25 PM

If you dont have 32 point, then a pally tank is not a good idea.

Explain.

JohnnyDangerously

07-19-2011, 03:52 PM

Explain.

Sample human pally tank
18 pal/2 fighter (need splash for optimal feats)
28 point
Str 15
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 12 need a 1 tome for ce
Wis 8 plus 6 item to cast highest lvl spells
Cha 16 need a 2 tome for dm3

Feats
Toughness
Pa
Ce
Shield mastery
Maximize
Extend
Bs or kophesh prof
Imp crit slash
Umd

As you can see, the stats are spread pretty thin. With a 32 point, raise dex to 12 and eat a 1 dex tome for 13. Drop umd, take dodge.
It can be done, but it is not a good idea. Not only is it stat intensive, but it is also gear intensive. Need solid bs or kophesh plus divine righteousness plus other threat gen gear to make it possible to hold aggro at higher lvls.

Edited
Could drop extend for thf.
A dps twf or thf requires alot less gear to be good, and stat points do not have to placed on int, instead you can use on str or con.

elraido

07-19-2011, 04:04 PM

Sample human pally tank
18 pal/2 fighter (need splash for optimal feats)
28 point
Str 15
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 12 need a 1 tome for ce
Wis 8 plus 6 item to cast highest lvl spells
Cha 16 need a 2 tome for dm3

Feats
Toughness
Pa
Ce
Shield mastery
Maximize
Extend
Bs or kophesh prof
Imp crit slash
Umd

As you can see, the stats are spread pretty thin. With a 32 point, raise dex to 12 and eat a 1 dex tome for 13. Drop umd, take dodge.
It can be done, but it is not a good idea. Not only is it stat intensive, but it is also gear intensive. Need solid bs or kophesh plus divine righteousness plus other threat gen gear to make it possible to hold aggro at higher lvls.

You do not need maximize or extend on a tank. Extend is by far the more useful between the two, but you don't need it. Also, dodge is not needed either. I worked with a 28 point gimp build for years. He worked just fine. When they let people redo with greater hearts, I fixed what needed to be fixed. Yes, str won't be as high as it could (-1 to hit and damage). Dex won't take advantage of mithral full plate like epic cavaliers, but it will max out Dragontouched Full Plate. So that is like -1 to -3 ac. Divine Might is just fine at a 3 as well. Or they can spend 2 ability points and a +2 tome to get up to the 20. Could be better served there vs Str.

JohnnyDangerously

07-19-2011, 04:14 PM

You do not need maximize or extend on a tank. Extend is by far the more useful between the two, but you don't need it. Also, dodge is not needed either. I worked with a 28 point gimp build for years. He worked just fine. When they let people redo with greater hearts, I fixed what needed to be fixed. Yes, str won't be as high as it could (-1 to hit and damage). Dex won't take advantage of mithral full plate like epic cavaliers, but it will max out Dragontouched Full Plate. So that is like -1 to -3 ac. Divine Might is just fine at a 3 as well. Or they can spend 2 ability points and a +2 tome to get up to the 20. Could be better served there vs Str.

Drop max take ithf. I also forgot a feat.
Tough
Pa
Ce
Thf
Ithf
Imp crit slash
Shield
Bs or kophesh
Extend
Umd.

If pure then drop umd and extend.

I did not say won't work. Just that it is the most difficult toon too make. Stat intensive plus very gear intensive = not the best idea, especially if you are new to pallys.

katz

07-19-2011, 04:36 PM

I apologize my end game perspective doesn't suit you.

Although I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to make at least a tier 2 Wiz/SP Conc Op for your Paladin. He's currently using a robe for Archmagi and Time Sensing Goggles for Wisdom. Also, do you not have the Amrath pack? If you don't, I'm not sure how much weight your criticisms of my opinions of end game carry. If you do, there are a whole bunch of named +6 Con/GFL belts that get vendored that someone would give you if you asked nicely. It'd definitely be better than your +5 Con/LFL belt. What were your starting stats, anyway? You seem to have lots of Wisdom. You only need 14 Wisdom *with* an item, further Wisdom bonuses only give you 29 extra spell points per level at 20.

Is your advice to use no Metamagics at all for healing? You might as well be wand whipping.

As far as when to take Power Attack, it's all a matter of what is available to you.

Anger's/Pathfinder's Set + Goggles of Insight + Guild Heroism potions means I have it on pretty much all the time at the beginning of the game (where 10 extra damage is a lot!) and once you hit 9, you can GH yourself with Planar Girds.

yer very funny, ya know that? back we go to busting on gear and a belittling attitude. of course, i can't fault you, ya know... my.ddo only reports what the person had on LAST... it doesn't show you that they usually wear plate, or that the goggles were for a haste click, and the last thing we were doing before logging out was jumping for coins. but my.ddo's shortcomings are an entirely different matter.
i said he had 2 paladins... find me the other. i like this game. ^_^

maximize ....ehhh... i dunno :-/ . as a paladin, i'm going to be there to fight, not heal the party. my heals are more of an "oh s***" measure... if i'm main healing, something is very very wrong. topping off, yes, as a matter of fact i do use wands for that. but eh. playstyle thing i guess. just seems kinda odd to me to take a feat that seems like such a waste of SP on a class that's supposed to be front line melee.

Stat intensive plus very gear intensive = not the best idea, especially if you are new to pallys.
thank you for remembering that the OP sounded very new to paladins and giving a good tidbit of info.

Balkas

07-19-2011, 06:06 PM

yer very funny, ya know that? back we go to busting on gear and a belittling attitude. of course, i can't fault you, ya know... my.ddo only reports what the person had on LAST... it doesn't show you that they usually wear plate, or that the goggles were for a haste click, and the last thing we were doing before logging out was jumping for coins. but my.ddo's shortcomings are an entirely different matter.
i said he had 2 paladins... find me the other. i like this game. ^_^

I apologize if you took my advice in a negative way. I didn't mean to belittle him because of what he has; I offered suggestions as to where he can easily obtain better. I'm the last person who would be calling people out on there gear; my characters are far from "done" as far as gear is concerned.

maximize ....ehhh... i dunno :-/ . as a paladin, i'm going to be there to fight, not heal the party. my heals are more of an "oh s***" measure... if i'm main healing, something is very very wrong. topping off, yes, as a matter of fact i do use wands for that. but eh. playstyle thing i guess. just seems kinda odd to me to take a feat that seems like such a waste of SP on a class that's supposed to be front line melee.

You describe the exact situation where having a Quickened Maximized CSW is useful. It allows you to heal yourself in those "Oh S***" moments in the middle of battle. Anytime a Lay on Hands is useful, a Quickened Maximized CSW is useful.

:)

katz

07-19-2011, 06:18 PM

mm. ya came off a bit.. condescending. if that's not the way you meant it, sorry for my response. the character you were looking at, tho, is definitely not his... primary toon... and not wearing his best gear at the time, either. lol

and as for quicken and maximize on a paladin... as i said before.. to ME, in my opinion.. it seems kind of a waste to blow 2 feats that eat so much SP on a feat-starved combat class that doesn't really have that much SP to start with... and for a relatively small return. don't get me wrong, i know the value of quicken and maximize for healing. i <3 it on my capped FvS. but it seems... i dunno... silly for a paladin. http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt84/SVT-GT500/smileys/shrug.gif

etelan

07-19-2011, 08:37 PM

1) What should I do?...

I have a endgame DoS build posted which I will link below. First, here is my opinion on your questions:

1) DPS-Yes, AC-Yes, Tower-No, Intimidate-Maybe
2) This type of weapon will not hold up at any level. Better off using a ML4 Carniflex.
3) A lot of players wear armor for the looks or the non-AC related bonuses
4) Greater reincarnation
5) No
6) Yes

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305474

katz

07-19-2011, 09:41 PM

I have a endgame DoS build posted which I will link below. First, here is my opinion on your questions:

1) DPS-Yes, AC-Yes, Tower-No, Intimidate-Maybe
2) This type of weapon will not hold up at any level. Better off using a ML4 Carniflex.
3) A lot of players wear armor for the looks or the non-AC related bonuses
4) Greater reincarnation
5) No
6) Yes

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305474

wow. impressive paladin

Ungood

07-19-2011, 09:55 PM

I apologize my end game perspective doesn't suit you.

Although I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to make at least a tier 2 Wiz/SP Conc Op for your Paladin.

You wrong me. What I would make for my Paladin, on how I play, and how I build, is one thing, because I know what i can provide, what I will be able to provide and what I am willing to provide to get there.

However, as it stands, I also know what is not reasonable to a new player. This game has a standing joke of taking a month to make 20th and then a Year to outfit your toon with decent gear.

For a new player, or someone new to a paladin I would suggest their first wearable GS item to be a HP item, not a spell point item., for obvious reasons.

He's currently using a robe for Archmagi and Time Sensing Goggles for Wisdom.For the most part, I am wearing that robe because I like the way it looks (it does look snazzy FYI). The 100 extra spell points, not a big deal.

Also, do you not have the Amrath pack? If you don't, I'm not sure how much weight your criticisms of my opinions of end game carry. If you do, there are a whole bunch of named +6 Con/GFL belts that get vendored that someone would give you if you asked nicely. It'd definitely be better than your +5 Con/LFL belt.That +5 Con/Lfl is a place holder till I get that belt, again, ToD is not an easy raid for a new player because of the need for Boot Mats which can be very daunting, equally so, I have only seen a Vorne belt drop twice and I lost the roll both times (and none of the other +6/GFL), now I am not sure how the loot drops go on Khyber, but on Orion, people still want those belts.

I am sure the OP needs a wonderful shopping list of items that will take them quite a bit of time to grind out. Which is why I believe Build advice should not be gear dependent.

Typically if they are new, then you have to play with what they can get as a new player, if they are vets, they would be asking their friends not some people on a forum.

Is your advice to use no Metamagics at all for healing? You might as well be wand whipping.As pretty much everyone who ever gave any advice on how to build a paladin will tell you, the class is feat starved. You need to take specific feats to be at the top of the DPS game, and after that you, have a grand total of 1 feat to play with (humans get 2)

If you want to waste them on healing metamagics that decrease the healing /sp ratio of the spells open to a Paladin, that would be your game. Maybe that is a older player thing, as I have heard a big fuss about the game being too easy and that maybe this is play to make it harder.

I would never suggest that to a starting player, if they want to take meta magics, they can take Mental Toughness (to cast more spells) or take Extend to have their combat buffs last longer.

However, Wand whipping is not an alternative to casting healing spells, because then you need to un-equip your weapon which is not a good move (unless you are at a shrine or safe area) and then, why not wand whip if it will help out.

Equally so, if you need augment your healing for a situation, you are better served to either have an G/S Devotion (IV) item equipped (if you can spare the gear slot) or chug Ardor Pots (since they do not stack with devotion, you pick one or the other)

It would detrimental to a build to waste a feat that could be far better served taking any other feat, then to waste it on a healing meta-magic.

As far as when to take Power Attack, it's all a matter
of what is available to you.

Anger's/Pathfinder's Set + Goggles of Insight + Guild Heroism potions means I have it on pretty much all the time at the beginning of the game (where 10 extra damage is a lot!) and once you hit 9, you can GH yourself with Planar Girds.The problem with this, is that the players who can toss this out, have the fund and gear to do this, don't need "Helpful advice" on how to build a paladin, they can typically ask their guild mate who has a paladin (maybe a few) what to do, and we all know. they would make it 20th regardless.

Since you looked at the modest gear on my paladin, that is what you can expect a new player to have by the time they make 20th (maybe slightly better or worse as the case may be, if they were gear grinding while trying to level or just trying to level) if they were in a larger guild that could outfit them, again, they would not be asking our advice.

and I gotta ask, where do you get Greater Herosim pots?:confused:

etelan

07-20-2011, 01:44 PM

wow. impressive paladin

Thanks. Still need the Epic Hyena Claw, but he does pretty well :) If the devs go through with the Chimera's Fang change I may update it with a few changes.

Iwinbyrollup

07-20-2011, 02:32 PM

maximize ....ehhh... i dunno :-/ . as a paladin, i'm going to be there to fight, not heal the party. my heals are more of an "oh s***" measure...

This is exactly the situation in which Maximize is a good choice.

As a disclaimer, my paladin has never taken Maximize, and probably never will. However, if I was going to highlight why someone might benefit from taking Maximize, I would highlight the moment where everything goes pear-shaped as being the ideal Maximize moment because speed is generally more important than efficiency when things go bad.

Maximized cures are less efficient than non-Maximized cures, but they have the advantage of being quicker in cases where fast healing is more important than efficient healing. It works the same for Maximize and damage spells. My low level Sorc has Maximize. Most of the time, it's not turned on. But if I get to the boss at the end of a quest and I have a few hundred SP? Maximize on, nuke for quick kill. Less efficient, sure, but when the desire is speed rather than efficiency, who cares how much I'm using?

Most won't need it or want it, but some might find it useful.

elraido

07-20-2011, 02:34 PM

TheDearLeader

07-20-2011, 02:38 PM

One question I have for all the paladins out there who use the csw spell for healing...why don't you use heal scrolls instead? Granted it takes a second or two to swap from weapon to scroll back to weapon.

I'm assuming it's so they can use them to heal themselves while tanking raid/epic bosses. Apparently other servers don't have healers for tanks, I dunno.

I like the Heal scroll approach, and staying in masses for any other time.

Balkas

07-20-2011, 02:42 PM

and I gotta ask, where do you get Greater Herosim pots?:confused:

Not Greater Heroism Potions, just regular Heroism Potions. You can buy them cheap and at a lower ML from the Guild Potion Vendor if your Guild Rank is high enough.

katz

07-20-2011, 03:02 PM

This is exactly the situation in which Maximize is a good choice.

As a disclaimer, my paladin has never taken Maximize, and probably never will. However, if I was going to highlight why someone might benefit from taking Maximize, I would highlight the moment where everything goes pear-shaped as being the ideal Maximize moment because speed is generally more important than efficiency when things go bad.

Maximized cures are less efficient than non-Maximized cures, but they have the advantage of being quicker in cases where fast healing is more important than efficient healing. It works the same for Maximize and damage spells. My low level Sorc has Maximize. Most of the time, it's not turned on. But if I get to the boss at the end of a quest and I have a few hundred SP? Maximize on, nuke for quick kill. Less efficient, sure, but when the desire is speed rather than efficiency, who cares how much I'm using?

Most won't need it or want it, but some might find it useful.

if i had the feats to burn on it, i might consider it, but paladins really don't have enough feats for this kind of meta-magic play, in my opinion. i'll spring for extend, tho. call me crazy, but i like my 3 minute zeal :D

3-4 lay hands per rest and unyielding sovereignty are *usually* sufficient for a panic situation.