Play "MY way"

[Kalari]

Isn't that what it's really all about? Enough with the tongue in cheek this or nerf that or don't tell me how to play this vs you need to be a team member that.

Its all about your play style and how it meshes with others. So basically use what we got in game lfm's, social tabs guilds and find people who agree with you, with the way the forums runs I am shocked more people don't find like minded souls who will support them. Or is that too much work compared to playing the game the way you see fit and demanding everyone who dares play your game to play your way?

There is a middle ground here people even if you refuse to see it over the popcorn bringing drama of the boards.

Not getting enough out of your class think you could do more if class x isnt as powerful?- - Find like minded players..

Think the game is too easy and need a challenge and don't want players who build to their best?- - Find like minded players..

You like to be a team player buff to your hearts content and want that same respect? Find like minded players..

You want to role play and want to spend your mana any way you see fit and choose your own race class combos?- Find like minded players..

You want to be completely needed and get every buff imaginable just in case something comes up and have blue bars in your groups?- Find like minded players..

I could go on but if you don't get the gist of this by now there is no help for you. Its such a simple factor that I find it funny most don't try this. Instead they go into pugs which is always a mixed bag with extraordinary expectations and when they are disappointed go on tangents that do nothing. You cannot change how people choose to approach this game but you can do a hell of a lot to make your own fun. Try it sometime its not as hard as it seems :)


This is my PSA without the annoying title.

[DoctorWhofan]

NOT FLEXIBLE: run with a guild...all thetime.

FLEXIBLE: PuG it.

Fences make friends. Please use them. You play your way to your exact standards and leave the PuGs to people who are not driven to perfection in every scenario.

[Ungood]

NOT FLEXIBLE: run with a guild...all thetime.

FLEXIBLE: PuG it.

Fences make friends. Please use them. You play your way to your exact standards and leave the PuGs to people who are not driven to perfection in every scenario.

This is very well said. You need a high level of adaptability (in all aspects) to pug successfully.

[Geonis]

NOT FLEXIBLE: run with a guild...all thetime.

FLEXIBLE: PuG it.

Fences make friends. Please use them. You play your way to your exact standards and leave the PuGs to people who are not driven to perfection in every scenario.

But then who would they lord their almighty skill and equipment(read- lack of a life) over? :D

[insaneuou]

Forum is a medium of sharing diffrent views and opinions.

If some one has a personal opinion on something u donot have right over it.

[grodon9999]

Forum is a medium of sharing diffrent views and opinions.

If some one has a personal opinion on something u donot have right over it.

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

[theboyftw]

/signed. you people whining about things being OP are ridiculous. sometimes things in life aren't fair. suck it up.

[grodon9999]

/signed. you people whining about things being OP are ridiculous. sometimes things in life aren't fair. suck it up.

That's just plain dumb, this isn't life it's a game.

[Battlehawke]

Oh god! You make it sound like life!!!!!

[Chai]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

Yeap.

DDO has an awesome in game community to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, coupled with complaining forumites, nerf requests, and criticism of those who disagree to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, heh. Sometimes its hard to imagine that its many of the same people. :p

[Thrudh]

Yeap.

DDO has an awesome in game community to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, coupled with complaining forumites, nerf requests, and criticism of those who disagree to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, heh. Sometimes its hard to imagine that its many of the same people. :p

There's a guy on these forums (he's long gone) who I pretty much hated for being such a jerk...

My very first abbot run, I got into a group, told them I was new, but good at listening. One cleric explained to me what I needed to do and was very helpful.

I got on the boards later and thanked him.... and it turned out to be the same guy.

:eek:

[Postumus]

NOT FLEXIBLE: run with a guild...all thetime.

FLEXIBLE: PuG it.





THIS GAME IS VERY IMPORTANT: run with a guild

THIS IS A GAME: PuG it!


IRON FIST: run with a guild

LAISSEZ-FAIRE: PuG it!



HIGH BP: run with a guild

LOW BP: PuG it!


DRINKING MALOX: run with a guild

DRINKING BEER: PuG it!


GET FRUSTRATED EASILY: run with a guild... all the time... then quit because they are gimps

RARELY GET FRUSTRATED: PuG it!


PEOPLE ARE MORONS: solo!

PEOPLE CAN BE PRETTY COOL: PuG it!

[Raithe]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

The forums is where I come to get away from the hostility and irrational behavior often involved in PUGs, particularly raid PUGs.

PUG more, it'll give you a different perspective.

[TheDjinnFor]

Explain how I can play a shuriken throwing drow rogue without being forced to solo every quest on casual once people know my name. I dare you.

In exactly the same idea, suppose Turbine continues nerfing melees while at the same time buffing casters. Explain how I can play a melee toon without being forced to solo every quest on casual once people know my name.

Nerf threads, at their core, have nothing to do with forcing people to play their way and everything to do with allowing people the freedom to play the way they want to without being ostracized or criticized.

[stille_nacht]

That's just plain dumb, this isn't life it's a game.

what is this "life" thing you speak of?

[grodon9999]

what is this "life" thing you speak of?

it's that thing that occasionally happens when I'm not zerging :)

[grodon9999]

There's a guy on these forums (he's long gone) who I pretty much hated for being such a jerk...

My very first abbot run, I got into a group, told them I was new, but good at listening. One cleric explained to me what I needed to do and was very helpful.

I got on the boards later and thanked him.... and it turned out to be the same guy.

:eek:

Same here, there have been people who I've flamed the **** out of on the forums who I finally meet in-game and get along fine. It's just the internet forum rules of human stupidity at work.

[Rodasch]

I only turn down people for pugs who are stupid IRL or childish in behavior (causing lots of drama), or if they didn't read the LFM.

I PuG a lot. When I'm not pugging, I'm soloing. I occasionally run with guild.

PuGs make this game more interesting, IMO, and let me meet new people who might just be awesome people to play with (or might not).

[somenewnoob]

I solved this and pretty much every other issue in another thread. Your welcome!

[varusso]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

Very very rarely do I see the amount of nonsense that is the forums reflected in-game. Then again, I tend to avoid those people in-game, because their LFMs tend to give them away, and if they join MY groups, they dont last long.

That being said, there *IS* a generally accepted "standard of expectation" among the majority of players, something which is reflected in the expectations when pugging. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting <insert whatever expectation you like here> when in a pug. This is HOW you find the guild/static group/etc folks that you want to run with regularly. When you run with someone whose playstyle/skill lvl/whatever does not match what you expect, you learn not to run with them again. There is nothing wrong with this. It is everyone's right to choose not to run with anyone else, for any reason (or none at all).

The caveat is to understand that, if you CHOOSE not to play to the accepted "standard", then everyone else has the right to CHOOSE not to run with you either. Everyone gets the same right to choose. There is nothing wrong with playing --- say a rogue who cant do traps, so long as you acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with other players EXPECTING a rogue to do traps, and choosing not to run with one who cannot/will not.

That whole "find players who play the way you do" thing goes both ways. And I rarely run into a problem with it either way. And the rare occasion when I DO, it is usually coupled with a player full of attitude that I would not want to group with anyway -- because they are a jerk with an attitude, not because they think Class X should/can be played differently than I do.

[kernal42]

In exactly the same idea, suppose Turbine continues nerfing melees

....What?

[Battlehawke]

A game is something you play, a passion is something you live, even in your dreams...

[Llewndyn]

I have neg repped all of you to hopefully fill the empty void in my soul.

"Just kidding, but not really" - White Goodman, Dodgeball

[TheDjinnFor]

....What?

U5 - Madstone Boots nerf, THF nerf, general DPS nerf
U6 - Pale Master Buff
U7 - Barb Capstone Nerf, Wizards get Archmage, New Summons
U8 - Crystal Cove loot favors casters
U9 - Universal caster buffs, minor melee nerfs, Sorc & FvS PrEs, autocrit change nerfs melees and buffs casters, epic trash can be instakilled.
U10.1 - An attempt to increased crafting costs for melee DPS shards; Caster-oriented shards untouched of course

Looks like pretty much non-stop melee nerfs since U5, with a few incomplete PrEs tossed in so that they can pretend like they're giving melees attention...

[kernal42]

U5 - Madstone Boots nerf, THF nerf, general DPS nerf
U6 - Pale Master Buff
U7 - Barb Capstone Nerf, Wizards get Archmage, New Summons
U8 - Crystal Cove loot favors casters (also, not really, but not a point worth arguing)
U9 - Universal caster buffs, minor melee nerfs, Sorc & FvS PrEs, autocrit change nerfs melees and buffs casters, epic trash can be instakilled. U9 buffed melees, except maybe for monks. Less hp on mobs and only slightly reduced dps = buff.
U10.1 - An attempt to increased crafting costs for melee DPS shards; Caster-oriented shards untouched of course

Looks like pretty much non-stop melee nerfs since U5, with a few incomplete PrEs tossed in so that they can pretend like they're giving melees attention...

Sorry, but no. Your original statement:



In exactly the same idea, suppose Turbine continues nerfing melees while at the same time buffing casters.

You don't get to cite caster buffs as melee nerfs, especially if you refer to them independantly (in red). The only actual nerf on your list is from U5; there were no nerfs in U6-10. There is hardly evidence for "non-stop melee nerfs".

Constant caster buffs? Sure. Also: Many melee buffs (but not as many, admittedly). But that's not the same as constant melee nerfs.

-Kernal

[Kalari]

Explain how I can play a shuriken throwing drow rogue without being forced to solo every quest on casual once people know my name. I dare you.

In exactly the same idea, suppose Turbine continues nerfing melees while at the same time buffing casters. Explain how I can play a melee toon without being forced to solo every quest on casual once people know my name.

Nerf threads, at their core, have nothing to do with forcing people to play their way and everything to do with allowing people the freedom to play the way they want to without being ostracized or criticized.



Excuse me what part of finding like minded people did you not read? I did put it in red maybe I should have bolded it mmm maybe next time.

If you play the game your way and cannot find people who enjoy your company just because I dont think its the fault of the game just saying.

You complain about effectiveness and nerfs but no one is forcing anyone to play with all hot shot over powered builds or people who build that way. It all comes down to choice the way people complain I would think Turbine is paying mercenaries to sit with guns and make us make all the choices for the game including paying them.

But go on blame whoever you want if it helps you feel better.

oh and the person who said I have no right to make these statements..just think about what you typed to me as your going on about my stance if they are free to whine so am I but in a fun way :) kiss off and don't read if you dont like I didnt put this thread up to make friends just get out my thoughts.

[Beld]

Turbine is paying mercenaries to sit with guns and make us make all the choices for the game including paying them.

They sit on my porch, and look like scarface....they scare me :o

[DoctorWhofan]

THIS GAME IS VERY IMPORTANT: run with a guild

THIS IS A GAME: PuG it!


IRON FIST: run with a guild

LAISSEZ-FAIRE: PuG it!



HIGH BP: run with a guild

LOW BP: PuG it!


DRINKING MALOX: run with a guild

DRINKING BEER: PuG it!


GET FRUSTRATED EASILY: run with a guild... all the time... then quit because they are gimps

RARELY GET FRUSTRATED: PuG it!


PEOPLE ARE MORONS: solo!

PEOPLE CAN BE PRETTY COOL: PuG it!

That's pretty much it, I justsaid it with out the cutesy sayings.

Seriously.

Is everyone done here?

Good.

Go play the game whatever way you want to play it with (or without) people who play the same way as you. Obviously you are spending way too much time on the forums.

[TheDjinnFor]

Sorry, but no.

Sorry, but no. You don't get to wand-wave away concrete examples of nerfs by pretending like they're not nerfs. If you're going to argue that they're not nerfs, actually pick an example and argue that it's not a nerf.

Update 5. Update 7. Update 9. And (maybe) Update 10.1. All had direct melee nerfs. Many more are not mentioned because I don't have all day. The release notes are there to read.


You don't get to cite caster buffs as melee nerfs, especially if you refer to them independantly (in red).

Actually, I do. Anything that makes casters behave differently is potentially a melee nerf, since melees largely rely on casters doing particular things to complete epic quests.

Suppose we take this scenario:
-Pretend all casters get +20 to their necromancy DCs
-Pretend all melees get double their hitpoints
-Pretend all epic mobs can be instant killed, even purple names

It's trivial to show that the melee has been nerfed despite appearing to have been given a buff. Here's a hint: what does the mass hold + melee beatdown strategy rely on? And what will casters be doing after this change?

[kernal42]

You're mincing words: Specifically, how "nerf" is used.

You began by specifying that melees are nerfed and that casters are buffed, which implies strongly you care about absolute nerfs; If you're discussing relative nerfs the statement is wholly redundant.

So I am discussing absolute nerfs (which, incidentally, is more sensibly discussed ;) ).

And in this respect, there's no question about whether or not melees are stronger now than they were after Update 6 (the answer is yes). Casters are also stronger, and in fact are more stronger which provides relative nerf that melees are now whining about.

Cheers,
Kernal

[azrael4h]

U5 - Madstone Boots nerf, THF nerf, general DPS nerf

Agreed, and one of the things nearly everyone was against was the idiotic THF and TWF nerfs, the Tempest nerf, etc... U5 was the worst "update" DDO has had.



U6 - Pale Master Buff

Pale Master was comparable to Deepwood Sniper originally.



U7 - Barb Capstone Nerf, Wizards get Archmage, New Summons

Not WAI, Archmage was only useful in the pre-U9 reign of Enchant Archmages + MHM = Happy Melee in epics. Summons are so useless as to not warrant comment.


U8 - Crystal Cove loot favors casters

You mean like the Seeker hat and the Brigand's Cutlasses? Lots of casters use those. Daggers were nerfed, remember.



U9 - Universal caster buffs, minor melee nerfs, Sorc & FvS PrEs, autocrit change nerfs melees and buffs casters, epic trash can be instakilled.

Casters can do more than buff and mass hold! Oh Noes! We must act quickly to nerf it before they have fun! Sorc and FvS both lacked any PrE of any kind and were due. Lower mob hp in epics buffed both casters and melees, autocrit ruined a poor design decision which pidgeon holed casters into hold-bots.



U10.1 - An attempt to increased crafting costs for melee DPS shards; Caster-oriented shards untouched of course

Looks like pretty much non-stop melee nerfs since U5, with a few incomplete PrEs tossed in so that they can pretend like they're giving melees attention...

U10.1... you mean the one that was axed? So you have one series of actual nerfs in U5, a bugged past life, and... an update that was cancelled due to general outrage by ALL players. Nice.

[azrael4h]

Sorry, but no. You don't get to wand-wave away concrete examples of nerfs by pretending like they're not nerfs. If you're going to argue that they're not nerfs, actually pick an example and argue that it's not a nerf.

Update 5. Update 7. Update 9. And (maybe) Update 10.1. All had direct melee nerfs. Many more are not mentioned because I don't have all day. The release notes are there to read.



Actually, I do. Anything that makes casters behave differently is potentially a melee nerf, since melees largely rely on casters doing particular things to complete epic quests.

Suppose we take this scenario:
-Pretend all casters get +20 to their necromancy DCs
-Pretend all melees get double their hitpoints
-Pretend all epic mobs can be instant killed, even purple names

It's trivial to show that the melee has been nerfed despite appearing to have been given a buff. Here's a hint: what does the mass hold + melee beatdown strategy rely on? And what will casters be doing after this change?

So if casters can do anything outside of buff you and cast mass hold monster, they are over powered then. Clear.

[irivan]

Isn't that what it's really all about? Enough with the tongue in cheek this or nerf that or don't tell me how to play this vs you need to be a team member that.

Its all about your play style and how it meshes with others. So basically use what we got in game lfm's, social tabs guilds and find people who agree with you, with the way the forums runs I am shocked more people don't find like minded souls who will support them. Or is that too much work compared to playing the game the way you see fit and demanding everyone who dares play your game to play your way?

There is a middle ground here people even if you refuse to see it over the popcorn bringing drama of the boards.

Not getting enough out of your class think you could do more if class x isnt as powerful?- - Find like minded players..

Think the game is too easy and need a challenge and don't want players who build to their best?- - Find like minded players..

You like to be a team player buff to your hearts content and want that same respect? Find like minded players..

You want to role play and want to spend your mana any way you see fit and choose your own race class combos?- Find like minded players..

You want to be completely needed and get every buff imaginable just in case something comes up and have blue bars in your groups?- Find like minded players..

I could go on but if you don't get the gist of this by now there is no help for you. Its such a simple factor that I find it funny most don't try this. Instead they go into pugs which is always a mixed bag with extraordinary expectations and when they are disappointed go on tangents that do nothing. You cannot change how people choose to approach this game but you can do a hell of a lot to make your own fun. Try it sometime its not as hard as it seems :)


This is my PSA without the annoying title.


Here, here!!

I concur.

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab349/mwhite2300/c30594c3e8.jpg

[Postumus]

That's pretty much it, I justsaid it with out the cutesy sayings.

Seriously.

Is everyone done here?

Good.



My bad. I didn't realize there was a 'two cutesy sayings' limit per thread (which you used up in your first post). (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3918558&postcount=2)

Far be it from me to steal your thunder.

/backs away slowly...

[Postumus]

So if casters can do anything outside of buff you and cast mass hold monster, they are over powered then. Clear.

Duh, don't you read the forums???

[Tirisha]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

It's more difficult to communicate on the forums than in game. It's a slower process of communication. Readers don't tend to relate to posters on the same human level as they might in game. Because of this, posts are often taken drastically out of context, assumptions are made about the "invisible" poster's views and agendas which are often simply conspiracy theories that readers can't get their minds out of. Edit: Reading all of the examples of opinions by the OP. Many of them may be fabricated beliefs that he/she has attributed to other posts that have a different meaning than what he/she pulls out of them.

Think about how hard it is to convince somebody of your point of view in person? Even if you provide an excellent argument, it's human nature to look at the issue with blinders on (People are afraid of being wrong). It is 1000 times harder to actually convince somebody of a different point of view on the forums, which leads to emotions like frustration that generally make communication harder.

[kernal42]

So if casters can do anything outside of buff you and cast mass hold monster, they are over powered then. Clear.

That's actually not the statement here.

The statement is that casters are more powerful than melees, and this is true.

For most quests/raids in the game, completion is easier and faster with a group of all casters than it is in a mixed group, and certainly easier than it is with a group of all melees. This demonstrates a fundamental imbalance (at least, within the context of current content).

It's also true that before recent updates (notably U9), the converse was true; most difficult content was more easily and quickly completed by bringing no more than one arcane (perhaps an exaggeration), although that single token arcane was generally requested. Turbine has worked hard to rectify that misbalance, but seems to have overshot the mark somewhat.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Dandonk]

Regrets, I've had a few - but then again too few to mention.

Oh, that's not what you meant? Sowwy.

[Tirisha]

There is a middle ground here people even if you refuse to see it over the popcorn bringing drama of the boards.

Not getting enough out of your class think you could do more if class x isnt as powerful?- - Find like minded players..

Think the game is too easy and need a challenge and don't want players who build to their best?- - Find like minded players..

You like to be a team player buff to your hearts content and want that same respect? Find like minded players..

You want to role play and want to spend your mana any way you see fit and choose your own race class combos?- Find like minded players..

You want to be completely needed and get every buff imaginable just in case something comes up and have blue bars in your groups?- Find like minded players..



This just seems oversimplified to me. I believe there is a lot more complexity to the issues you are addressing.

[DoctorWhofan]

My bad. I didn't realize there was a 'two cutesy sayings' limit per thread (which you used up in your first post). (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3918558&postcount=2)

Far be it from me to steal your thunder.

/backs away slowly...

:rolleyes::rolleyes: :D

[katana_one]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

Pretty much. I can only recall ever having issues with one player in-game, and his/her tirade was entirely in party chat in the middle of a fight, so I almost didn't notice it. /squelched. Moved on.

My experiences in-game are usually pretty pleasant, even though I PuG 90%+ of the time.

[Kalari]

This just seems oversimplified to me. I believe there is a lot more complexity to the issues you are addressing.

Perhaps but in the four years Ive played I can name two times I ever been frustrated enough to run to the boards to vent and you know what after seeing responses from those two times I realized I could have done something to mitigate the wrong I felt and thats when I started doing it. If something doesnt seem right or un fun for me I dont do it. I am not saying leave the game I hate when people tell others that I am saying that many of the moaning and groaning (not all but a good majority) is by people who can and should find another way to have fun.

But if its not for you if you want to keep running around the game and worrying about what Joe is doing or how trivial things are without trying to make a new path to fun. If your fun is so whole dependent on updates and what the developers can pull out despite the same over power vs mediocre nothing this thread says will help you. Im just getting it out take it as you wish I feel with all the nerf this and op that and god mode stuff its time for me to state how simple it is to Just play the game :)

[NaturalHazard]

Yeap.

DDO has an awesome in game community to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, coupled with complaining forumites, nerf requests, and criticism of those who disagree to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, heh. Sometimes its hard to imagine that its many of the same people. :p

I bet a a few people who actually come to loggerheads here on the forums actually might encounter each other in game and get along lol. :rolleyes:

[Tirisha]

Perhaps but in the four years Ive played I can name two times I ever been frustrated enough to run to the boards to vent and you know what after seeing responses from those two times I realized I could have done something to mitigate the wrong I felt and thats when I started doing it. If something doesnt seem right or un fun for me I dont do it. I am not saying leave the game I hate when people tell others that I am saying that many of the moaning and groaning (not all but a good majority) is by people who can and should find another way to have fun.

But if its not for you if you want to keep running around the game and worrying about what Joe is doing or how trivial things are without trying to make a new path to fun. If your fun is so whole dependent on updates and what the developers can pull out despite the same over power vs mediocre nothing this thread says will help you. Im just getting it out take it as you wish I feel with all the nerf this and op that and god mode stuff its time for me to state how simple it is to Just play the game :)

Some people don't post out of frustration, but out of concern for the current condition of the game. Those people who do vent out of frustration are emotionally compromised, which means they will not be able to communicate effectively.

Asking for a change in the game doesn't automatically constitute a concern about how other players build or perform in game.

Your overall message as it reads to me that you believe the players are responsible for making the game fun for themselves. *and again, since forums are a difficult place to communicate, I could be reading you wrong* Plz consider this however: If a dev made this statement as a general problem fixer for the game: "Make it fun for yourself" There would be a riot on the boards.

Can you imagine if somebody said on the forums: There's not enough high level content and the devs response was: TR? What about: "The game is imbalanced" and the devs response was: balance it yourself? "The game is not challenging enough" and the devs response: Make it challenging yourself. "There is not enough raids" and the devs respond: play another game with more raids.

These examples are borderline crazy out of the mouth of a Dev. However, these are likely the answers some of the people in the forum community will give.

[kitsune_ko]

U5 - Madstone Boots nerf, THF nerf, general DPS nerf
U6 - Pale Master Buff
U7 - Barb Capstone Nerf, Wizards get Archmage, New Summons
U8 - Crystal Cove loot favors casters
U9 - Universal caster buffs, minor melee nerfs, Sorc & FvS PrEs, autocrit change nerfs melees and buffs casters, epic trash can be instakilled.
U10.1 - An attempt to increased crafting costs for melee DPS shards; Caster-oriented shards untouched of course

Looks like pretty much non-stop melee nerfs since U5, with a few incomplete PrEs tossed in so that they can pretend like they're giving melees attention...

You forgot to mention "Removed deathward in epics, and then nerfed Vorpals". Nothing says fair like giving insta-kill in epics to casters then saying to melees "AhAhAh, silly melees this was not intended for you, we will just take those vorpals now, thanks".

[Kalari]

I bet a a few people who actually come to loggerheads here on the forums actually might encounter each other in game and get along lol. :rolleyes:

Definitely not me I dont get along with no one my guild puts up with me because I handle my liquor well. As far as those who still wish to argue this we will never see eye to eye I stated my purpose my name is never hidden feel free to avoid me if you feel I lean one way or the other. I still maintain that nothing in this game has been so bad save player attitudes that I am worried. I didnt leave when the store brought in the easy buttons, when they nerfed the hell out of all my challenging quests, DA, and the like if I can go threw all that and the mod 9 drought that killed guilds I used to run with then it will take this ship really sinking for me to go. Ive found my fun path and take what they throw at me and still have my fun if I stop well there are plenty of other places that will have me and my dough.

[TheDjinnFor]

You're mincing words: Specifically, how "nerf" is used.

No, I'm quite serious about the word 'nerf'. It is harder for melees to both group up and complete quests, relative to before, now that a group of 2+ moderately geared arcanes don't need melees to complete most epics.


You began by specifying that melees are nerfed and that casters are buffed, which implies strongly you care about absolute nerfs; If you're discussing relative nerfs the statement is wholly redundant.

Some buffs, like if arcanes were to get +500 sp, benefit arcanes but not necessarily at the expense of melee. Other buffs, like ones that make melee DPS redundant, directly nerf melees.

So I am discussing absolute nerfs (which, incidentally, is more sensibly discussed ;) ).


And in this respect, there's no question about whether or not melees are stronger now than they were after Update 6 (the answer is yes).

The answer is no. Competent arcanes are soloing even the harder epics now, which means that melees literally cannot complete these epics because their mass hold bot is gone.

[Beld]

Yeap.

DDO has an awesome in game community to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, coupled with complaining forumites, nerf requests, and criticism of those who disagree to the likes of which I havent seen in another MMO, heh. Sometimes its hard to imagine that its many of the same people. :p

And has a VERY passionate following. Couple that with the natural 'house rules' understanding and you get passionate people with differing ideas that all think they are right.

Further interject that scenario into an anonymous setting where inflection and intent cannot always be easily conveyed and it's easy to find yourself in the situation that we (as in the DDO forum community) find ourselves.

I have also met a couple of people in game that I had on my ignore list on the forums, and found them to be knowledgable, fun and a genuine good person to run with...and yet, we still don't get along on the forums, go figure :D

I think Kalari hit it on the head with the OP, play to have fun, if something isn't fun, don't do it and don't play with people that like to do it either. But also, don't ask for the game to be changed in a fundamental way because some of us 'other' people like some of the changes/updates. :cool:

[Beld]

The answer is no. Competent arcanes are soloing even the harder epics now, which means that melees literally cannot complete these epics because their mass hold bot is gone.

Jump in the group with the competent arcanes and pike....we were doing it as arcanes before, so you know, sit down, relax, eat a sandwich, take a load off....it's all relative ;)

[Enoach]

NOT FLEXIBLE: run with a guild...all thetime.

FLEXIBLE: PuG it.

Fences make friends. Please use them. You play your way to your exact standards and leave the PuGs to people who are not driven to perfection in every scenario.

And all this time I thought Fences make good Neighboors...

When playing with others like a PuG think of it more like a pick-up game at the park - Most of the time you don't know how good a person is until you've played an inning or two with them. Running with a Guild is like being on a Team where everyone knows their position and how the other person is going to react in a given situation.

My feeling is that everyone should PuG a little bit - if for no other reasons than:

To hone their own skills
Re-awake the senses that have been dulled
Learn a different paradiem
Even teach a lasting lesson for a new and up-in-comer
Meet new people that they have something in common with

[Beld]

Don't Worry, Be Happy :D

[Tembyr]

I should go to sleep soon, I read this in the OP:



Not getting enough out of your class think you could do more if class x isnt as powerful?- - Find mindflayers..

Think the game is too easy and need a challenge and don't want players who build to their best?- - Find mindflayers..

You like to be a team player buff to your hearts content and want that same respect? Find mindflayers..


I should get rid of that fixation =D.

[Arnhelm]

I play my way. I enjoy the game and have fun. When I join a pug, I have fun. If the pug stops being fun, I leave.

The one thing I consistently see in some folk playing DDO is impatience. I'm old. I've got time to play, and patience to find what I want in the game while having fun playing my way.

Did I mention my way is having fun while playing a game? ;)

[Raithe]

Asking for a change in the game doesn't automatically constitute a concern about how other players build or perform in game.


This.

The fallacy being continuously invoked in all these anti-discussion threads (note that they are not advocating anything other than for some people to shut their mouth) is that balance is a caster vs. melee (me vs. them) issue.

I would like to play one of my characters, namely my kensei or ranger, and feel like I brought something unique to a particular group that wouldn't have been better served by bringing my bard or sorc.

Right now:

1) Anytime DPS is king I should bring my bard or sorc
2) Anytime Instakill is king I should bring my bard or sorc
3) Anytime Crowd Control is king I should bring my kensei, bard, or sorc, and
4) Anytime Healing is king I should bring my spellsinger bard

I can bring my ranger into a quest and they will be self-sufficient and possibly contribute. That is simply not enough, they need a purpose.

Games need purpose.

[Lissyl]

That is simply not enough, they need a purpose.


That is simply not enough for me, I need a purpose other than completing the quest.

This is where the problem lies, Raithe. The purpose is to beat the quest, no matter WHO is 'stronger', 'overpowered', 'contributing', 'optimal', and so forth. If (generic) you have to attribute further requirements, then that is a problem that (generic) you are directly responsible for, and one that only affects (generic) you.

It is unconscionable to redefine all of the terms related to the quest, and then demand changes to other people's classes based on your redefinition.

[Raithe]

The purpose is to beat the quest,...

No, it isn't. If it were, then Turbine would simply grant completion for anyone who clicks on the door to the quest. Everyone would be satisfied because their purpose had been satisfied, and Turbine would go out of business because their game had been won by too many people.

The purpose that Turbine should be aiming at is gameplay and group dynamics. That second one is probably more important because this is an MMO (not really, but its multiplayer at least). That means choosing what type of character to bring to a quest or activity should be part of the game and its purpose.

I don't really like applying labels that carry baggage, but your attitude is called metagaming. You don't really want to be playing this particular game, you want to be reaping the rewards and recognition of completing quests, hording loot, and building god-like characters. That's fine, it's actually a very prolific mentality and a game can thrive for a while on it. It's exclusionary in nature, however, and those players that prefer the realtime 3D action, challenging gameplay, and interesting group dynamics will be leaving for games with better purpose.

[Lissyl]

No, it isn't. If it were, then Turbine would simply grant completion for anyone who clicks on the door to the quest. Everyone would be satisfied because their purpose had been satisfied, and Turbine would go out of business because their game had been won by too many people.

No, that argument doesn't even make sense. If the purpose of any particular quest is to beat that quest...then giving out an autocompletion would be the diametric opposite of what you would want to create to keep that sense alive. Instead, you would (as a developer) focus on creating content that requires as many different skillsets as possible while not making it impossible for a well-created character to solo, since a large portion of the playerbase plays solo.


The purpose that Turbine should be aiming at is gameplay and group dynamics. That second one is probably more important because this is an MMO (not really, but its multiplayer at least). That means choosing what type of character to bring to a quest or activity should be part of the game and its purpose.

...right. And this would be accomplished for the purpose of BEATING THE QUEST. The dynamics are pointless if you're not using the dynamics to create quests that people want to beat.


I don't really like applying labels that carry baggage, but your attitude is called metagaming. You don't really want to be playing this particular game, you want to be reaping the rewards and recognition of completing quests, hording loot, and building god-like characters. That's fine, it's actually a very prolific mentality and a game can thrive for a while on it. It's exclusionary in nature, however, and those players that prefer the realtime 3D action, challenging gameplay, and interesting group dynamics will be leaving for games with better purpose.

....
....
....
...I'm going to simply assume you forgot who you were talking to, or perhaps that you haven't read many of my posts enough to remember that powergaming is one of the few things in DDO that I absolutely despise. Do not even attempt to group me in with powergamers. Your reasoning on why it is bad (exclusionary in nature) is absolutely correct, and since I constantly argue for the inclusion of everyone (and NOT just 'melee vs caster', as I'm a ranged and specialist advocate as well), the idea that I would be arguing in favor of powergaming (while playing a Mechanic main nonetheless!) is laughable. What I DO advocate is that, in the absence of balance that has been a hallmark of D&D since...its inception, is that people should stray AWAY from the powergaming mentality to achieve their fun and isolate the powergamers to their own little groups (which isn't me being snotty...I recognize that powergamers find my kind of play intolerable just as I find theirs intolerable, and I'm perfectly content to let them play the way they want). And yes, sometimes that means when you're running with a caster who has more gear than Christ, you're going to feel kinna useless. And when your caster is running with a melee or two with more gear than Christ, you're going to feel kinna useless. It happens.

[Raithe]

And when your caster is running with a melee or two with more gear than Christ, you're going to feel kinna useless. It happens.

I admit I totally mistook your meaning when you said "beat the quest." I'll agree with you now. Beating the quest is definitely part of the intended purpose, while completing is simply a side-effect.

My caster, however, has never run with any other character, ever, who made her feel useless. I continually, and almost absentmindedly, dominate quests with her where no one but possibly another arcane, archer, or divine make any significant impact. You may have a different experience, and I cannot account for that, but that has been the truth since day one with her. It simply isn't a powergamer vs. casual player issue.

There was a time when my ranger could solo the Subterrane easier than my sorceror or bard. Even that is not really true anymore.

[Lissyl]

I admit I totally mistook your meaning when you said "beat the quest." I'll agree with you now. Beating the quest is definitely part of the intended purpose, while completing is simply a side-effect.

I ~thought~ something was wrong there. I read that and was like...me, a powergamer? ~Really?!~ No, he has to have thought I was someone else or ~something~. *laugh* :p


My caster, however, has never run with any other character, ever, who made her feel useless. I continually, and almost absentmindedly, dominate quests with her where no one but possibly another arcane, archer, or divine make any significant impact. You may have a different experience, and I cannot account for that, but that has been the truth since day one with her. It simply isn't a powergamer vs. casual player issue.

There was a time when my ranger could solo the Subterrane easier than my sorceror or bard. Even that is not really true anymore.

I think we've had very different experiences then, and I'm willing to bet it could be traced to knowledge. I can't think of ~any way on Earth~ a person could walk into a new, elite quest at-level and claim to dominate it unless it was ~retardedly~ in their favor (think...ShadowCrypt on a Fire Savant), particularly with well-geared people with them. I'm still new enough to remember my feelings the first time I ran ~every single quest~, and I still have several I haven't run yet, going on 9 months in-game. But I think that distinction is important too, because (here we go with the generic 'you's. :p ) you can't really balance a game around the assumption that the people playing know the quests like the back of their hand. You'll eliminate all the new blood very quickly by doing so (something I can attest to, having watched enough people leave after running into the first layer of players who expected them to 'know this' or 'how could you not know that' and so on). It ~has~ to be balanced from the perspective of someone new to the quests, ~at level~. If (for example) when Diplomatic Immunity came out, you ran it with your 20 then ran through it with an at-level character, you ~already~ know more than it was balanced for (and while I detest the word 'balance' being overly used in a D&D conversation, it does lend itself somewhat to this point at least).

So perhaps your caster doesn't ever feel overshadowed ~now~. Roll up a new one and level him/her to 17 (or whatever at-level is for the new raid/quest in U11) then stroll into it with at-level well-geared melee and see if your experience doesn't change. I can't guarantee it will, but I can guarantee that you won't simply trounce all over the opposition while the melee 'sit and pike'.

[Resindog]

Very very rarely do I see the amount of nonsense that is the forums reflected in-game. Then again, I tend to avoid those people in-game, because their LFMs tend to give them away, and if they join MY groups, they dont last long.

That being said, there *IS* a generally accepted "standard of expectation" among the majority of players, something which is reflected in the expectations when pugging. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting <insert whatever expectation you like here> when in a pug. This is HOW you find the guild/static group/etc folks that you want to run with regularly. When you run with someone whose playstyle/skill lvl/whatever does not match what you expect, you learn not to run with them again. There is nothing wrong with this. It is everyone's right to choose not to run with anyone else, for any reason (or none at all).

The caveat is to understand that, if you CHOOSE not to play to the accepted "standard", then everyone else has the right to CHOOSE not to run with you either. Everyone gets the same right to choose. There is nothing wrong with playing --- say a rogue who cant do traps, so long as you acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with other players EXPECTING a rogue to do traps, and choosing not to run with one who cannot/will not.

That whole "find players who play the way you do" thing goes both ways. And I rarely run into a problem with it either way. And the rare occasion when I DO, it is usually coupled with a player full of attitude that I would not want to group with anyway -- because they are a jerk with an attitude, not because they think Class X should/can be played differently than I do.

Your last paragraph sum up my thoughts on this thread exactly. The few horrid pugs I've had the pleasure to be a part of were horrid due to someone who was an ass. The bad experience had little to do with playstyle.

Luckily those bad experiences have been rare for me but I have run across a handful of folks that make you wonder about how they have survived this long in the world w/o someone taking them out based on their unpleasantness in a pug.

[Tirisha]

This is where the problem lies, Raithe. The purpose is to beat the quest, no matter WHO is 'stronger', 'overpowered', 'contributing', 'optimal', and so forth. If (generic) you have to attribute further requirements, then that is a problem that (generic) you are directly responsible for, and one that only affects (generic) you.

It is unconscionable to redefine all of the terms related to the quest, and then demand changes to other people's classes based on your redefinition.

that maybe some players only goal but there are a great deal of players who like to feel like they are apart of the reason why the quest was a success. When you can't fill a role well with a non-caster it becomes an issue to some of us. I understand that this isn't an issue for you, but ask you to understand that some of us desire a sense of Teamwork/diversity in our groups. When the most effective groups are the non-diverse ones. When bringing a non-caster means more harm to said group then help, some of us have an issue with that.

From a balance point of view it just isn't right that 1 Character can fill every role not just well, but exceptionally well all at once. No matter the gear, or time spent on a toon, this should not be obtainable. Furthermore, it shouldn't be the case that several classes, need a massive amount of gearing/work to play exceptionally well at a single role, and still not necessarily be able to fill that role as well as the 1 character that fills all roles.

[Chai]

This just seems oversimplified to me. I believe there is a lot more complexity to the issues you are addressing.

The issues can be as complex as all get up. The solution is still simple. Selective grouping.

[baddax]

ok. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XRshTP586I&feature=related

[Lissyl]

that maybe some players only goal but there are a great deal of players who like to feel like they are apart of the reason why the quest was a success. When you can't fill a role well with a non-caster it becomes an issue to some of us. I understand that this isn't an issue for you, but ask you to understand that some of us desire a sense of Teamwork/diversity in our groups. When the most effective groups are the non-diverse ones. When bringing a non-caster means more harm to said group then help, some of us have an issue with that.

I get that, I really do understand at ~least~ the ~source~ of your frustration. I see it very well from my time as a mechanic, listening to people who don't advocate playing a mechanic because they are 'useless', or 'a waste of a party slot'. What I find dishearteningly ironic though is to note that it is, by and large, these same players who now are all about 'diversity and teamwork'. The most 'effective' groups have ~always~ been non-diverse ones, and this is the playstyle that this segment of the populace prefers. Only ~now~ is it becoming a place where they suddenly see how they've been treating others, and asking them to respond. And for the most part, those of us who were told we were 'a waste of party slot' just kept right on going, because that's what we do. This is the primary disconnect for all the advocates complaining about 'non-necessary' melee. I've said it a hundred times, they define necessary as part of their own stipulations. Despite not being 'worth a party slot', I've had exactly one group tell me they wish I'd have been replaced with someone else. Maybe a few others thought it...but by and large, I'm welcomed back with open arms if I click on another players' LFM who I've run with before.


From a balance point of view it just isn't right that 1 Character can fill every role not just well, but exceptionally well all at once. No matter the gear, or time spent on a toon, this should not be obtainable. Furthermore, it shouldn't be the case that several classes, need a massive amount of gearing/work to play exceptionally well at a single role, and still not necessarily be able to fill that role as well as the 1 character that fills all roles.

Okay...but I do have one distinction to make. "Killing stuff" isn't really a role, per se. I mean...it is, sort of...but it's not one that lends itself well to classification. There's 'healing', and there's 'trapsmithing', and there's 'CC'...and there's 'killing stuff'. Most mistakenly call it DPS, but its really not. It hasn't truly been DPS since the first instakill went into the game; barring that, or if you find yourself disagreeing with that, consider that 'DPS' -- Damage Per Second -- is truly important on exactly one phase of a dungeon: the end boss (where instakilling isn't possible). As such, the 'role' of melee is undiminished in this larger context -- they still provide rock-solid DPS on bosses. That a burst class can start pumping out DPS to rival them at it means nothing; even the vaunted DOTS take a LONG TIME to put up, in terms of the lengths of boss fights.

[kernal42]

No, I'm quite serious about the word 'nerf'. It is harder for melees to both group up and complete quests, relative to before, now that a group of 2+ moderately geared arcanes don't need melees to complete most epics.

I'm not sure why you're so serious about misusing terms, then. It's a strange thing to try to do. Regardless, ease of grouping is based on perception and not so much reality. It's a poor argument.

A better argument would be: How successful would 6-12 melees be now compared to U6 in difficult content? They would in fact, unarguably do better. This is how you separate relative from absolute, and this is why melees are (absolutely) buffed, and not nerfed. I don't see what is so hard to understand.

Sure, it's a relative nerf, but that is a different thing.



So I am discussing absolute nerfs (which, incidentally, is more sensibly discussed ;) ).

You actually aren't.


The answer is no. Competent arcanes are soloing even the harder epics now, which means that melees literally cannot complete these epics because their mass hold bot is gone.

It's still faster to complete (most) epics with a group than solo. I know my melees are just as welcome in runs as they were before.

Cheers,
Kernal

Edit:
In the interest of reasonable discussion, can you please clarify what you consider to be a distinction between absolute and relative nerfage?

[baddax]

Your overall message as it reads to me that you believe the players are responsible for making the game fun for themselves. *and again, since forums are a difficult place to communicate, I could be reading you wrong* Plz consider this however: If a dev made this statement as a general problem fixer for the game: "Make it fun for yourself" There would be a riot on the boards.

Can you imagine if somebody said on the forums: There's not enough high level content and the devs response was: TR? What about: "The game is imbalanced" and the devs response was: balance it yourself? "The game is not challenging enough" and the devs response: Make it challenging yourself. "There is not enough raids" and the devs respond: play another game with more raids.

These examples are borderline crazy out of the mouth of a Dev. However, these are likely the answers some of the people in the forum community will give.

To a certain extent this is true. That is why permadeath and roleplaying guilds exist, for example. Its not stated but it is implied. The main issues arise as differents groups interact with one another.

[Tirisha]

The issues can be as complex as all get up. The solution is still simple. Selective grouping.

lol well that may solve the issue for the people who don't have the problem:p

[Tirisha]

What I find dishearteningly ironic though is to note that it is, by and large, these same players who now are all about 'diversity and teamwork'. The most 'effective' groups have ~always~ been non-diverse ones,


I don't believe this to be true *at least for myself*. Not in epic content or raids. Diverse parties would consist of a healer or 2 a caster or 2 and 3 or 4 non-casters. Since there are more non-caster classes than anything else, this seemed like a good balance to me. Before Casters were a valued and fundamental part of the group. The group was encourage to stay together/ work as a team. Now melees are not a fundamental part of a group. Groups are encouraged to split up, tackling different objectives at once for quicker completions/loot and more challenge: 6 casters in the same room is often quite overpowering.



Okay...but I do have one distinction to make. "Killing stuff" isn't really a role, per se. I mean...it is, sort of...but it's not one that lends itself well to classification. There's 'healing', and there's 'trapsmithing', and there's 'CC'...and there's 'killing stuff'. Most mistakenly call it DPS, but its really not. It hasn't truly been DPS since the first instakill went into the game; barring that, or if you find yourself disagreeing with that, consider that 'DPS' -- Damage Per Second -- is truly important on exactly one phase of a dungeon: the end boss (where instakilling isn't possible). As such, the 'role' of melee is undiminished in this larger context -- they still provide rock-solid DPS on bosses. That a burst class can start pumping out DPS to rival them at it means nothing; even the vaunted DOTS take a LONG TIME to put up, in terms of the lengths of boss fights.

Killing stuff is a product of DPS. If you instant kill a guy with 3000 hp the outcome is the same as you doing 3000 damage, the difference is semantics.

Dots don't take very long to put up, 20 seconds is not long in an epic boss fight. It is not long enough for most melees to establish aggro. Heck most of the time even before they are stacked, unless the melee has a lead in or is built for threat, the caster will pull aggro. Non-casters won't likely produce as much sustainable DPS on an epic boss as a caster (with an AH clicky) unless the non-caster is extremely well geared and built for just DPS.

It simply is not likely that a group of 5 non-casters will contribute the same amount of DPS on an epic or raid boss as 5 casters over the coarse of the fight. This can lead to non-casters not filling a role *well* within the quest.

[Lissyl]

I don't believe this to be true *at least for myself*. Not in epic content or raids. Diverse parties would consist of a healer or 2 a caster or 2 and 3 or 4 non-casters. Since there are more non-caster classes than anything else, this seemed like a good balance to me. Before Casters were a valued and fundamental part of the group. The group was encourage to stay together/ work as a team. Now melees are not a fundamental part of a group. Groups are encouraged to split up, tackling different objectives at once for quicker completions/loot and more challenge: 6 casters in the same room is often quite overpowering.

It may not be true for you specifically; I know you caught the 'by and large' part, and I certainly don't direct accusations at people intentionally. Although...imo that's not a 'diverse' group. That's a 3 function group, all pigeon-holed (the very same thing that we have threads upon threads on the forum decrying). That's 'Healing', 'CCbot', and 'Killing/DPS', all within incredibly predictable roles. They're all important to the completion of the quest, yes. And the order of importance works out to something like 'Heal the Melee', 'CC for the Melee', and 'Hey Guys, Watch This Drive'.

A diverse group would be more akin to a Light Monk, a mech rogue, and a fighter with an offensive FvS and sorc with a battle cleric. Now I realize that that is an ~extreme~ example -- it's intended to be. But it does drive home the point that 'diverse' and 'most efficient' are very different (and quite often mutually exclusive) concepts.


Killing stuff is a product of DPS. If you instant kill a guy with 3000 hp the outcome is the same as you doing 3000 damage, the difference is semantics.

NOTE: I DO NOT ADVOCATE NERFS FOR ROGUES.
That said...I don't see one single person complaining about double and triple assassinations, despite the fact that no non-assassin melee can pull off a single 15,000 'dps' move. Only arcanes and, to a very lesser extent, FvS, are the targets of the complaints.


Dots don't take very long to put up, 20 seconds is not long in an epic boss fight. It is not long enough for most melees to establish aggro. Heck most of the time even before they are stacked, unless the melee has a lead in or is built for threat, the caster will pull aggro. Non-casters won't likely produce as much sustainable DPS on an epic boss as a caster (with an AH clicky) unless the non-caster is extremely well geared and built for just DPS.

Then casters should learn to control their aggro. C'mon, even WoW has this part right.


It simply is not likely that a group of 5 non-casters will contribute the same amount of DPS on an epic or raid boss as 5 casters over the coarse of the fight. This can lead to non-casters not filling a role *well* within the quest.

Look, even with '5 casters' nuking to their hearts content, you're just not looking at the same equivalency as being 'useless'. You're trying to convince me with all this 'performing well' 'contributing' 'optimizing' stuff that warriors/melee are suddenly mech rogues. No matter how often its' repeated, its just not true. If the melee feel useless on trash, have them gather the mobs so the caster can wail it down! There is always ~something~ you can do to 'contribute'. It may not be the contribution you're used to, but that's change.

It really is a Mexican Standoff, and there seems to be no solution that Turbine can produce that will please both sides. I could be wrong, but I think you'd better get used to strong casters, particularly in (generic) your guild runs. Find a way to be useful or hang up your melee and let the new thinkers have a shot at it, because the Big T isn't likely to change everything back to appease what amounts to ~maybe~ 8% of the population. I'm the kind of person who doesn't really believe in the no-win scenario, but the 'win' presented isn't enough to satisfy the folk who want things changed back. Maybe there's a development angle they can take; we know a ranged pass is coming, no doubt a melee one will come soon thereafter. We know they're not happy with epics, and from the way the forums are blowing up on this topic, neither are the most vocal 1%*. Maybe there's a development solution that's simple and elegant that we're all overlooking. I'd like to think there is, and as an optimist I'll have to hold out for that. But until then, to both sides, I'd say to try not to aggravate the other ~too~ much.

<<*The most vocal 1% refers to the often-repeated statistic on MMO boards that only 1% of the total playerbase, on average, ever post a single comment on the forums. It does not refer to the size of the melee and/or powergaming/optimizer playerbase, and should not be considered my opinion on their representation, which I put closer to about 8% by ~purely~ anecdotal experience. :) >>

[Luxx0r]

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do
I saw it through without exemption,
I planned each charted course,
Each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way...

Yes, there were times,
I'm sure you knew,
When I bit off
More than I could chew
But through it all,
When there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way...

(Sorry, I could not resist)

[Tirisha]

It may not be true for you specifically; I know you caught the 'by and large' part, and I certainly don't direct accusations at people intentionally. Although...imo that's not a 'diverse' group. That's a 3 function group, all pigeon-holed (the very same thing that we have threads upon threads on the forum decrying). That's 'Healing', 'CCbot', and 'Killing/DPS', all within incredibly predictable roles. They're all important to the completion of the quest, yes. And the order of importance works out to something like 'Heal the Melee', 'CC for the Melee', and 'Hey Guys, Watch This Drive'.

I don't believe it's true for the larger part of the community either but that seems impossible to argue without extensive and diverse polls.



A diverse group would be more akin to a Light Monk, a mech rogue, and a fighter with an offensive FvS and sorc with a battle cleric. Now I realize that that is an ~extreme~ example -- it's intended to be. But it does drive home the point that 'diverse' and 'most efficient' are very different (and quite often mutually exclusive) concepts.



I was talking about class diversity. Not builds within a class. Certain builds will not be optimal. I'm advocating parties consisting of a rogue, fighter, monk, FVS, wizard and Paladin, being a balance party *or similar kind of set up* and should be in general, more successful than a party of 6 self healing Wizards. *currently 6 wizards are simply much more potent*




NOTE: I DO NOT ADVOCATE NERFS FOR ROGUES.
That said...I don't see one single person complaining about double and triple assassinations, despite the fact that no non-assassin melee can pull off a single 15,000 'dps' move. Only arcanes and, to a very lesser extent, FvS, are the targets of the complaints.
Then casters should learn to control their aggro. C'mon, even WoW has this part right.


1: Casters include in my mind is any class with a large SP pool. All of them are extremely powerful in a way, however my focus has been on Sorcerer and Wizard because as they stand, these classes promote the exclusion of other non-casters. These classes are complemented better by more of the same, than anything else.


2: Assassinate is much more limiting than the SP pool of a caster.

3: why would Casters control their aggro? Kiting is a much easier way of defeated most bosses assuming your party doesn't have a bunch of melees in the group. When that's not possible just shield block and you'll find you are likely a better tank than most non-casters.



Look, even with '5 casters' nuking to their hearts content, you're just not looking at the same equivalency as being 'useless'. You're trying to convince me with all this 'performing well' 'contributing' 'optimizing' stuff that warriors/melee are suddenly mech rogues. No matter how often its' repeated, its just not true. If the melee feel useless on trash, have them gather the mobs so the caster can wail it down! There is always ~something~ you can do to 'contribute'. It may not be the contribution you're used to, but that's change.


I'm gonna leave this alone because we are gonna disagree on this. I feel like I want to contribute a significant amount to a group, no matter what class I want to play, and you don't. So I ask that we agree to disagree on this.



It really is a Mexican Standoff, and there seems to be no solution that Turbine can produce that will please both sides. I could be wrong, but I think you'd better get used to strong casters, particularly in (generic) your guild runs. Find a way to be useful or hang up your melee and let the new thinkers have a shot at it, because the Big T isn't likely to change everything back to appease what amounts to ~maybe~ 8% of the population. I'm the kind of person who doesn't really believe in the no-win scenario, but the 'win' presented isn't enough to satisfy the folk who want things changed back. Maybe there's a development angle they can take; we know a ranged pass is coming, no doubt a melee one will come soon thereafter. We know they're not happy with epics, and from the way the forums are blowing up on this topic, neither are the most vocal 1%*. Maybe there's a development solution that's simple and elegant that we're all overlooking. I'd like to think there is, and as an optimist I'll have to hold out for that. But until then, to both sides, I'd say to try not to aggravate the other ~too~ much.

<<*The most vocal 1% refers to the often-repeated statistic on MMO boards that only 1% of the total playerbase, on average, ever post a single comment on the forums. It does not refer to the size of the melee and/or powergaming/optimizer playerbase, and should not be considered my opinion on their representation, which I put closer to about 8% by ~purely~ anecdotal experience. :) >>

I don't necessarily want things reverted back. Yes I believe a Pre U9 DDO was a better game, but going back on change is dangerous thing for a Development team.

I haven't advocated a fix for the problem as of yet. I'm just trying to make Turbine and other members of the DDO community aware that there is a problem *maybe not to everybody but to a sizable amount of players*

Off the top of my head a fix could be along these lines:

Maybe they could improve the Non-caster classes to make them more essential to a balanced party? that would make the people who like casters *as they are* happy while giving me and others a good reason to play our non-casters other than play for playing sake.

Another Solution would to be making the lv 5 dot spells more balanced in their damage output so that Non-casters could find a place as boss dps.

Making AC relevant in Epics would give some non-caster builds more appeal.

also lowering the AC of epic bosses would lower the gap between par non-caster dps and par caster dps.

An aggressive approach would be to re-evaluate the caster classes, find a way to make it impossible to fill multiple roles exceptionally well *like it is with other classes*

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

This is so true. That is because people are afraid to voice what they feel. Anonymity makes them a Superhero, in their mind.

In game, they actually have to somewhat INTERACT with people.

Look at Foxnews or CNN.com Look at all the racist derogatory comments cloaked as "political commentary" under the stories. If you could interact with those same people in their workplace? They wouldn't say shyite. Its the SAME PEOPLE!

The internet has gave birth to a whole new generation of Super Nerds. Further it has exposed many of them for being the phonies that they are.

Just be who you are. Sadly, it's too hard for some...

[DoctorWhofan]

This is so true. That is because people are afraid to voice what they feel. Anonymity makes them a Superhero, in their mind.

In game, they actually have to somewhat INTERACT with people.

Look at Foxnews or CNN.com Look at all the racist derogatory comments cloaked as "political commentary" under the stories. If you could interact with those same people in their workplace? They wouldn't say shyite. Its the SAME PEOPLE!

The internet has gave birth to a whole new generation of Super Nerds. Further it has exposed many of them for being the phonies that they are.

Just be who you are. Sadly, it's too hard for some...

Meh.

I am probably almost exactly who I am on the forums that I am in the game, or real life. I am not afraid of you or anyone else. Besides, it is easier to be ME than to be someone else.

[thakorian]

Also, voicing ones opinion usually provokes answers from others with the intention to provocate and the cycle continues. For example, the longer this discussion goes on, the more people will trench themselves in their own perspectives instead of taking a moment to look at the bigger picture. It's a very normal occurence in almost every "controversial" topic that goes on for long enough.

People tend to have a negative response when someone else tries to encroach on their comfort zone, this quite surely is to be expected, so as far as uncivil comments and unnecessary exaggerations go, you're pretty much fueling the flame for the opposition. I have no idea if this topic is beyond redemption, but surely it does seem to aggravate a lot of people regardless of their stance. People should focus on the common ground instead of their petty accumulated hatred for opposing opinions. Keep that in mind when voicing your opinion. It's a party based game after all.

[Lissyl]

...(Some portions snipped so it doesn't devolve into screens of text :) )...

I was talking about class diversity. Not builds within a class. Certain builds will not be optimal. I'm advocating parties consisting of a rogue, fighter, monk, FVS, wizard and Paladin, being a balance party *or similar kind of set up* and should be in general, more successful than a party of 6 self healing Wizards. *currently 6 wizards are simply much more potent*

Yah, I thought we might have two different diversity definitions. I'd like to see a bigger variance in builds, personally. And I'll ~give~ you the 'self-healing' part. After reading some more thoughts today, plus some more thinking on my own earlier, a lot of the problems really do seem to trace down to there ~also~.


3: why would Casters control their aggro? Kiting is a much easier way of defeated most bosses assuming your party doesn't have a bunch of melees in the group. When that's not possible just shield block and you'll find you are likely a better tank than most non-casters.

I ran a (regular) ADQ last night. She sure didn't think my blocking was very effective. In fact, she took that as a sign it was 'carve up and eat the halfling' time (I'm not a PM, personally I can't stand the playstyle). The large banks of hp make this somewhat more effective, but only when you add the gross healing in does it become routinely possible.


I'm gonna leave this alone because we are gonna disagree on this. I feel like I want to contribute a significant amount to a group, no matter what class I want to play, and you don't. So I ask that we agree to disagree on this.

NO! *cough* :p Fair enough. :)


I don't necessarily want things reverted back. Yes I believe a Pre U9 DDO was a better game, but going back on change is dangerous thing for a Development team.

Every caster I've talked to, with very VERY few exceptions, prefer the new things better. It almost always comes down to the same reason, too -- 'I get to do more than buff'. Now mind you, I very seldom -- if ever -- speak to level 20 characters. Since I don't have one yet, I'm still in that phase where the thought of bothering a 20 for something is still a bit much to ask. Once I actually hit cap, I'm sure that'll change. So most of these casters I'm talking to...they don't even ~have~ Wail yet. Many don't even have Finger, and a good half only remember being told that Circle was worthless (like it pretty much was before U9). By and large, casters are ~finally~ enjoying the game. The only thing keeping most of the non-epic-geared casters going before then was masochism and the joy of wizards/sorcs held over from PnP (or, of course, the soloing WF arcane archetype). So I can't agree that it was ~better~ before U9 when taken as a whole experience. Everyone can talk about how 'fun' mana conservation is, but it's an illusion that you've pretty much had to tell yourself to keep you going. Mana conservation is not, in any way, 'fun'. That's why all these store pots are going to TR arcanes/divines suddenly bereft of their torcs and conc opp's. (Not to say I support infinite mana; rather, I like the old druid 'Innervate' from WoW: Once every 6 minutes, you could restore roughly 1/2 of your mana bar, and that was it. Some minor trinkets existed for giving back mana points, similar in theory to the Torc. It's 'Infinite' from the perspective that it will ~eventually~ give you more spell points, but not infinite because its not always 'on demand').



Maybe they could improve the Non-caster classes to make them more essential to a balanced party? that would make the people who like casters *as they are* happy while giving me and others a good reason to play our non-casters other than play for playing sake. Another Solution would to be making the lv 5 dot spells more balanced in their damage output so that Non-casters could find a place as boss dps.

I'm totally with a melee CC improvement. Epic Trip, maybe (3+ mobs are tripped!)? Better cooldowns, too. I really don't see the DoTs doing as much damage as (apparently) so many people see in epic. Only one of the 2 is really going to be useful for any character (unless you took Lightning/Ice, but why pass up Force (Disintegrate)?). I'm willing to bet that (like much of this debate), it relies on ungodly gear levels. And I think that AC definitely needs its own full pass.

[Kalari]

Also, voicing ones opinion usually provokes answers from others with the intention to provocate and the cycle continues. For example, the longer this discussion goes on, the more people will trench themselves in their own perspectives instead of taking a moment to look at the bigger picture. It's a very normal occurence in almost every "controversial" topic that goes on for long enough.

People tend to have a negative response when someone else tries to encroach on their comfort zone, this quite surely is to be expected, so as far as uncivil comments and unnecessary exaggerations go, you're pretty much fueling the flame for the opposition. I have no idea if this topic is beyond redemption, but surely it does seem to aggravate a lot of people regardless of their stance. People should focus on the common ground instead of their petty accumulated hatred for opposing opinions. Keep that in mind when voicing your opinion. It's a party based game after all.

Every thread I post is to provide people a way to express themselves I know its a hot button issue and as long as people dont call each others names and the like I dont care what they post. Im tired of people being afraid to speak their minds I am not one of those types who puts up a thread and says only post if you agree with me and I enjoy healthy debates. That to me is more interesting then the latest X player stole loot that landed in his name but I wanted it threads or the spammage by certain posters who need more attention.

Point blank the forums are filled with nerf this viable that and a bunch of other stuff. Sure its easily ignored by just looking at the title but sometimes a person just wants to say how aggravated they are (in this case I am) with it all and how I and many others just play the game. Agree or disagree its your right to I feel more discussion leads to harmony better then quiet jabs every once in awhile. Have a voice and use it is what I grew up with and I will continue to go that path.

[thakorian]

Every thread I post is to provide people a way to express themselves I know its a hot button issue and as long as people dont call each others names and the like I dont care what they post. Im tired of people being afraid to speak their minds I am not one of those types who puts up a thread and says only post if you agree with me and I enjoy healthy debates. That to me is more interesting then the latest X player stole loot that landed in his name but I wanted it threads or the spammage by certain posters who need more attention.

Point blank the forums are filled with nerf this viable that and a bunch of other stuff. Sure its easily ignored by just looking at the title but sometimes a person just wants to say how aggravated they are (in this case I am) with it all and how I and many others just play the game. Agree or disagree its your right to I feel more discussion leads to harmony better then quiet jabs every once in awhile. Have a voice and use it is what I grew up with and I will continue to go that path.

Not to sound like an elitist, but uncivil discussion without any points is just blatantly unnecessary. If you feel like voicing your hurt feelings under a mask of opinionated untruths, you might as well not have posted at all. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof, and in light of that, even the smallest claims need a smidgeon of proof... outside of your own territorial stance. This said, what I've posted here is purely general nonsense regarding the way people communicate, nothing more and nothing less, and unlike in other threads, I refuse to take a stand for any side in this one, since quite frankly, it is getting a bit boring.

[Kalari]

Not to sound like an elitist, but uncivil discussion without any points is just blatantly unnecessary. If you feel like voicing your hurt feelings under a mask of opinionated untruths, you might as well not have posted at all. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof, and in light of that, even the smallest claims need a smidgeon of proof... outside of your own territorial stance. This said, what I've posted here is purely general nonsense regarding the way people communicate, nothing more and nothing less, and unlike in other threads, I refuse to take a stand for any side in this one, since quite frankly, it is getting a bit boring.

Well then hope you enjoyed posting that and find another thread if you dont like this one no one forced you to read this and as long as I am not breaking any forum rules I have just as much right to voice my game concerns as anyone posting a nerf, or funny or any other type or relevant thread. If you wish to keep going the rounds (which according to your claim of this being boring im feeling you dont) fine I will keep it civil Ive no wish to lose my thread or incur trouble for it, but your try to bash at me did not go un noticed nor is impressive at all. If you did not like the way I handled my position that is your right whether your bored or not is not my problem and there are plenty of more threads you can enjoy if this one does not suit your needs. Kthanksbye :)

[thakorian]

Truly sir, I cannot say if you're the master of irony or just really defensive. I thank thee for thy wall of text, but in all seriousness, wouldn't you reconsider reading what I wrote just one more time?

[Kalari]

Truly sir, I cannot say if you're the master of irony or just really defensive. I thank thee for thy wall of text, but in all seriousness, wouldn't you reconsider reading what I wrote just one more time?

Uncivil discussion without any points/ and disguised hurt feelings masked by untruths? gee where you saying this about my thread or just making a blanket statement in whole? many people have made plenty of solid points for their gripes about nerfing and why they are against nerfs in this thread alone. You may have found the back and forth pointless but I found it nice to get out peoples feelings on why others fun are being challenged versus those of us who are finding fun despite what the boards give off.

As I said before you came in with your attempt to say this thread was lame I read it and I answered you accordingly if that is not what you meant perhaps you should re write in a more clear fashion. Wall of text or not I try to make how I feel as clear as a bell.

And its not sir last I checked but im getting tired of verifying my gender on these boards so if people want to think im a dude have at it.

[DoctorWhofan]

Truly sir, I cannot say if you're the master of irony or just really defensive. I thank thee for thy wall of text, but in all seriousness, wouldn't you reconsider reading what I wrote just one more time?

THat's ma'dam to you. (Kalari is a GURL! :D )

And she's had lots of points, On this thread and others. Perhaps she feels you haven't read hers.

As for anything, something that important tends to spark arguments. But as I said, if you don't like how I play, leave my group. If you insist to play a certain way, create a group with that criteria or play with a guild with similar tastes.

If you can't handle chaos, don't PuG. very simple. If you are that picky on your playstyle, put up a fence made of friends of similer style to yours or create a LFM that lists your criteria.


END of story.


EDIT: Kalari beat me to it!

[Kalari]

THat's ma'dam to you. (Kalari is a GURL! :D )

And she's had lots of points, On this thread and others. Perhaps she feels you haven't read hers.

As for anything, something that important tends to spark arguments. But as I said, if you don't like how I play, leave my group. If you insist to play a certain way, create a group with that criteria or play with a guild with similar tastes.

If you can't handle chaos, don't PuG. very simple. If you are that picky on your playstyle, put up a fence made of friends of similer style to yours or create a LFM that lists your criteria.

END of story.

Thank you Trissa that was the heart of this though my point does tend to get loss in walls o text :p

[DoctorWhofan]

Thank you Trissa that was the heart of this though my point does tend to get loss in walls o text :p

yeah, but you type walls of text faster than me ggggrrrrr!!!!! :p

[Tirisha]

I'm totally with a melee CC improvement. Epic Trip, maybe (3+ mobs are tripped!)? Better cooldowns, too. I really don't see the DoTs doing as much damage as (apparently) so many people see in epic. Only one of the 2 is really going to be useful for any character (unless you took Lightning/Ice, but why pass up Force (Disintegrate)?). I'm willing to bet that (like much of this debate), it relies on ungodly gear levels. And I think that AC definitely needs its own full pass.

Trip or stun should be combinable with Whirlwind attacks or something:D

[thakorian]

Thank you Trissa that was the heart of this though my point does tend to get loss in walls o text :p

I do apologize for making the assumption that you were a man, but all in all, my control of the english language doesn't really comprehend such a title without an assumption for a gender.

I feel like this is the time I need to make myself really clear. I play a caster as my main and do NOT advocate nerfs of any sort without any real proof, as might be evident if you'd notice my snide remarks in other threads, to which you're implying I didn't take a look at... I was really talking about what turns this whole conversation has taken instead of taking any real stance (caster/anti-caster), since the topic has thoroughly been derailed into mutual hatred.

I was merely voicing my opinion on the matter that most of the facts have already been laid out, and the current discussion is mostly about both sides getting hurt by the fact that people are taking offense. Which is why I said to take a further look at my original post in this thread.

The fact that you're so deeply offended by my rhetoric, seems like you have already deeply embedded the thought in yourself that everyone that ever so slightly oppose your view is WRONG.

In conclusion, you really proved the point of my original post if you really look at it. I merely said what I thought about the conversion in general, and you took offense. See where I'm going here?

Sorry about the wall of text.

[Kalari]

I do apologize for making the assumption that you were a man, but all in all, my control of the english language doesn't really comprehend such a title without an assumption for a gender.

I feel like this is the time I need to make myself really clear. I play a caster as my main and do NOT advocate nerfs of any sort without any real proof, as might be evident if you'd notice my snide remarks in other threads, to which you're implying I didn't take a look at... I was really talking about what turns this whole conversation has taken instead of taking any real stance (caster/anti-caster), since the topic has thoroughly been derailed into mutual hatred.

I was merely voicing my opinion on the matter that most of the facts have already been laid out, and the current discussion is mostly about both sides getting hurt by the fact that people are taking offense. Which is why I said to take a further look at my original post in this thread.

The fact that you're so deeply offended by my rhetoric, seems like you have already deeply embedded the thought in yourself that everyone that ever so slightly oppose your view is WRONG.

In conclusion, you really proved the point of my original post if you really look at it. I merely said what I thought about the conversion in general, and you took offense. See where I'm going here?

Sorry about the wall of text.


No apologies for walls of text since I like to read. I am not offended by people who oppose my view I got upset by the notion I had no right to make a thread like this. I am bias against any caster nerfs yet have yet to tell anyone in this thread not to say they are for them not to post. But if you think my thread is pointless thats a whole nother fight and one I wont back down from. The way you came across was calling my ideals pointless which got me angry. I could care less about the caster vs melee angst save DONT NERF MY 20 Caster lol.

[thakorian]

No apologies for walls of text since I like to read. I am not offended by people who oppose my view I got upset by the notion I had no right to make a thread like this. I am bias against any caster nerfs yet have yet to tell anyone in this thread not to say they are for them not to post. But if you think my thread is pointless thats a whole nother fight and one I wont back down from. The way you came across was calling my ideals pointless which got me angry. I could care less about the caster vs melee angst save DONT NERF MY 20 Caster lol.

Like I said, I usually take a stance on certain threads, but I really am getting bored defending my stance in other threads and would like to see civil discussion instead of people being overtly defensive on both sides and ignoring the fact and retort to petty insults. I certainly did not refer to your original post and most certainly did not want to come out as offensive in regards to your point, since I myself consider most of them close to mine.

[Kalari]

Like I said, I usually take a stance on certain threads, but I really am getting bored defending my stance in other threads and would like to see civil discussion instead of people being overtly defensive on both sides and ignoring the fact and retort to petty insults. I certainly did not refer to your original post and most certainly did not want to come out as offensive in regards to your point, since I myself consider most of them close to mine.

Well then I apologize I honestly thought you were attacking this thread its the way I read it but if that was not the case then you did not deserve my snippiness. I can be egotistical at times and an overly opinionated person but I can also admit to being wrong to begrudgingly so :)

[thakorian]

Well then I apologize I honestly thought you were attacking this thread its the way I read it but if that was not the case then you did not deserve my snippiness. I can be egotistical at times and an overly opinionated person but I can also admit to being wrong to begrudgingly so :)

I very much appreciate your honesty, and when people talk about things that result in the misfortune of others in the light of others fortune, things tend to get a bit exaggerated. I was merely talking about how this accumulates on the both sides of the conversation. And I can't stress this enough, but it is a bad thing for the original point that was made.

People make so many offensive comments these days its hard to determine which way you should have your shields up.

[jillie]

I love the chaos that pugging can lead to. Sometimes. I love running with geared guildies and friends and making EDA look like a cakewalk. Sometimes.

I love my kensai 3 dwarf, my wf wiz, my drow ranger (who gets epic traps) and all my other toons too. This update, my wizzie and sorc got a lot of luv from the devs, and i even got inspired to create a wf fvs to play with some friends on Khyber. Next update, maybe my exploiters (one at lvl 13, one at lvl 10) will get some love, or maybe ranged attacking will and i'll be able to play an AA with a straight face.

My wizzie spent two lives learning to buff and CC. Now she's learning to nuke, and is looking forward to instakills in epics. I don't want her nerfed back to a support role. I have a bard who's quite happy with that. My Kensai doesn't feel useless either. Sure, it's more likely that the mob she's happily beating the tar out of will suddenly turn into a pile of purple goo, but what the hey, there's another mob right over there!

So, no drama here (unless i'm roleplaying). I guess you could say that I "role" with the changes.

[Lissyl]

Trip or stun should be combinable with Whirlwind attacks or something:D

In all seriousness, I would LOVE to see a (and I know I'm going to feel the need to wash my mouth out with soap after saying this phrase, much like after the first time I grudgingly said 'build' :p ) 'viable melee CC build'. I know when I play a melee, and I'm probably a distinct minority here, the attacking is the ~least~ fun part. I get all into the trips, sunders, stuns, and whatnot much more. To have a 'feat line' that you could build up to for epic CC? Yes please! Trip+Whirlwind would be...pardon the pun...epic!

Unless it's a caster mob. Them...I like to take an axe to. They die so satisfyingly! :p

[Kalari]

I very much appreciate your honesty, and when people talk about things that result in the misfortune of others in the light of others fortune, things tend to get a bit exaggerated. I was merely talking about how this accumulates on the both sides of the conversation. And I can't stress this enough, but it is a bad thing for the original point that was made.

People make so many offensive comments these days its hard to determine which way you should have your shields up.

Yep sorry I caught ya in my cross hairs I can get pretty defensive when I feel im being told not to post but ya didnt do that and I got my signals crossed.

[baddax]

ok. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XRshTP586I&feature=related


Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do
I saw it through without exemption,
I planned each charted course,
Each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way...

Yes, there were times,
I'm sure you knew,
When I bit off
More than I could chew
But through it all,
When there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way...

(Sorry, I could not resist)
Thats ok i couldnt either.:D

[baddax]

Yep sorry I caught ya in my cross hairs I can get pretty defensive when I feel im being told not to post but ya didnt do that and I got my signals crossed.

I have to say i am very disapointed, I come home from a hard days work, only to read multiple WOT's (TM wall of text) and this is the way it ends? Everyone kisses and makes up?? Just when it looks like it is going to get good, and no flaming name calling or IBTL's no special apperance by the cube? Am i even on the right forums? or maybe im in some wierd alternate forums universe where threads are actually civil and people have discussions like adults????? Lol. Nah cant be.

[Raenef]

I've NEVER seen nearly the amount of hostility or stupidity in game that I see in the forums. I hope this mirrors everyone else's experience.

Beautiful. This is why I almost never come on these forums, I'm to busy playing or doing other things in life. People who like the game play it and people who whine about to come to forums. I don't think the OP is really whining for the record.

It is so very true that all the people you don't want to play DDO with are probably trolling forums rather than playing so don't be discouraged.

[DoctorWhofan]

I have to say i am very disapointed, I come home from a hard days work, only to read multiple WOT's (TM wall of text) and this is the way it ends? Everyone kisses and makes up?? Just when it looks like it is going to get good, and no flaming name calling or IBTL's no special apperance by the cube? Am i even on the right forums? or maybe im in some wierd alternate forums universe where threads are actually civil and people have discussions like adults????? Lol. Nah cant be.

fine...

you want flames?

I hate you, you look like an orc, and smell like Sorjeck after he left Tempest's Spine.

:p:D;)

Sorry they are half hearted. Tired of fighting.

[Letrii]

fine...

you want flames?

I hate you, you look like an orc, and smell like Sorjeck after he left Tempest's Spine.

:p:D;)

Sorry they are half hearted. Tired of fighting.

Well, he is a half orc

[Tirisha]

In all seriousness, I would LOVE to see a (and I know I'm going to feel the need to wash my mouth out with soap after saying this phrase, much like after the first time I grudgingly said 'build' :p ) 'viable melee CC build'. I know when I play a melee, and I'm probably a distinct minority here, the attacking is the ~least~ fun part. I get all into the trips, sunders, stuns, and whatnot much more. To have a 'feat line' that you could build up to for epic CC? Yes please! Trip+Whirlwind would be...pardon the pun...epic!

Unless it's a caster mob. Them...I like to take an axe to. They die so satisfyingly! :p

We can agree too.... agree on this. More role Versatility for non-casters would be a step in the right direction for sure.

[Kalari]

I have to say i am very disapointed, I come home from a hard days work, only to read multiple WOT's (TM wall of text) and this is the way it ends? Everyone kisses and makes up?? Just when it looks like it is going to get good, and no flaming name calling or IBTL's no special apperance by the cube? Am i even on the right forums? or maybe im in some wierd alternate forums universe where threads are actually civil and people have discussions like adults????? Lol. Nah cant be.

LOL oh dont worry I still plan on being a thorn in the nerf types side but that guy was not in the wrong I was Im not a good person but I can admit when I am wrong I took out my attitude with him cause I read what he posted wrong. Even us know it alls get it wrong :) :o

[Beld]

lol Oh Dont Worry I Still Plan On Being A Thorn In The Nerf Types Side But That Guy Was Not In The Wrong I Was Im Not A Good Person But I Can Admit When I Am Wrong I Took Out My Attitude With Him Cause I Read What He Posted Wrong. even Us Know It Alls Get It Wrong :) :o

Blasphemy!!!! ;)

[Orratti]

As for the play with like minded people op yep, you should. If you set up you lfm correctly or join one that is set up correctly or just run with guild you will end up running with those who are of the same mind as you are. I still don't think it would remove the undercurrent of competition between players but really the whining and complaining does get tiresome after a while doesn't it. Even when it is your own.

The melee vs caster competition part of the thread I see along these lines. Why would I bring melee into a group when 6 casters would be even better was one of the points. Why would I bring 6 casters into a group when one is enough? One caster alone is enough for a quest unless the enemies are immune to the abilities of that caster. Why bother to bring 5 other people that might screw it up? I can see one or two friends but even in those cases they create more chaos then a single caster would.

You're dealing with too many elitists if you can't get into a run because you're a melee and you're not needed. I doubt that is the problem, more likely the problem is not feeling needed. In order to appease this feeling might I point out that mages, outside of situations where the rules were skewed purposefully against them, have never needed a melee beyond the low levels, nor most of the time have they needed other mages. Of course raids are the exception, sometimes, depending on who the player is.

Epics were completely boring before from general concensus and that was coming from high standing forumites. I never thought blanket immunities were a good idea and they were around a long time.

We have no idea what is coming in the future of the game. Perhaps there will be a series of quests and raid that are loaded with quell or Mindflayers that feeblemind, or other more proper ways to knock out casters. There could be some major equipment boosts to melee dps or some minor nerf to caster damage output. There have been alot of equipment boosts to melee dps in the past. Turbine does listen to it's players although after a while it does make you wonder how they can stand it. Nag, nag, nag, whine, whine, complain. It's got to be like being in the worst marriage ever.

[baddax]

I know when I play a melee, and I'm probably a distinct minority here, the attacking is the ~least~ fun part. I get all into the trips, sunders, stuns, and whatnot much more. To have a 'feat line' that you could build up to for epic CC? Yes please! Trip+Whirlwind would be...pardon the pun...epic!

I have to say for the most part i agree with you. Either as a caster or as a melee i have always found CC the most satisfying. Dont get me wrong i like putting up the big dps numbers but the longer i have play the more i enjoy CC.

[baddax]

fine...

you want flames?

I hate you, you look like an orc, and smell like Sorjeck after he left Tempest's Spine.

:p:D;)

Sorry they are half hearted. Tired of fighting.
Thats ok its the thought that counts.
Oh and btw healbots suck and should be banned from the game.

Well, he is a half orc

Im not a horc but i play one on TV er in Game.