Shroud incompetence reaching all time high

[Tarragon12]

In the spirit or recently closed thread, i want to discuss pug Shroud running. In the past, when 16 was cap, majority of 15+ toons ran it. Fail was rare and usually due to part4. Pots were rarely drunk.

These days, it seems every other shroud run struggles to finish part2. People start fighting mobs blindly, obviously expecting "others" to provide general strategy. This usually leads to several rounds of failures followed by wipe or sloppy success. Then comes the part3. Link to solver is posted, yet frequently three or more people ask for help or trash randomly on the tiles, until rescued by others. Idea of running water seems to be even more alien.

Part4 is suprisingly the least problem now. Usually 1round bore with nothing going wrong. Proves that while skill and cooperation declines or stagnates, average dps is on the rise.

Part 5 is a success most of the time as well, with a single sad note, that YEARS old practice or renewing mana slowly, which is pretty much obsolete, is still observed without a thought. There is no need of this, unless single lvl17 cleric decides to solo heal despite multiple other being present.
Memory of such a cleric chugging 4 pots in company of generalist FVS and leader who didn't bother to lead.

Back on Keeper, there were no such troubles. Back on Thelanis, there were no such troubles. This leads me to believe that these troubles are almost unique to our almost drama-free yet somewhat noobish(from noob=dual minVI or eSOS wielding incompetent player, not a newbie=player learning the ways of DDO) server.

[grodon9999]

You just have lousy luck. I've been taking the first 11 idiots who hit my LFM for well over a year and there is no issue completing smoothly 99.9% of the time.

Could be a timezone thing, run one at 6 PM eastern and you will not fail.

[knightgf]

With all of these 'failed shroud' threads, I have a bad feeling Turbine may decide to 'nerf' the shroud so that it is much easier for noobs and makes characters that can run it on pre-nerf normal run it on post-nerf elite. Do be careful Turbine; you might be making a mistake if you do.

[Syllph]

You just have lousy luck. I've been taking the first 11 idiots who hit my LFM for well over a year and there is no issue completing smoothly 99.9% of the time.

Could be a timezone thing, run one at 6 PM eastern and you will not fail.

Same here. Once in a long while it'll fail but I don't even bother with myddo or even what class they are. I grab them in the order they hit the LMF and rarely have trouble.

[Gkar]

I wonder what the common element in all those failed shrouds you were in was?

[Yazzman]

Dunno, usually only trouble i have in Shroud is in part2 when someone kills something too fast (doesn't even have to be on purpose, getting aggro on cat and cat killing itself on your cold shield - happened to me). Announcing the death of a part2 boss every time and not just the first time might help but it's usually down to bad coordination/communication.

[Battlehawke]

I have't been in a failed Shroud in a very long time. Years, it seems like. The biggest reason that I have seen them fail, when they have is due to lack of leadership communication. one great healer should be enough, but that depends on the party make up and THAT healer, not you. And if you ever complained about a healer trying to get his blue bar up in pt four, you would not be in any of my shroud runs. Maybe thats part of the problem......

[Chai]

Part4 is suprisingly the least problem now. Usually 1round bore with nothing going wrong. Proves that while skill and cooperation declines or stagnates, average dps is on the rise.


This is the symptom that stands out the most right here, because right now a good portion of the player base has been convinced that "contribution" and "DPS" are one and the same. They have even developed tools to measure who is better at running into the room, getting into attack animation, boosting that attack animation, and staying nailed to the floor to do the most DPS.

The issue with that is when the view becomes distorted to the point where people believe this is all that matters. Harry in part 4 of the Shroud is that exact encounter - run in and attack, boosting as much as possible. So you see huge amounts of success. This makes raids like Titan and Abbot much harder though, as well as discourages actual strategy in places like Shroud part 2 (ZOMG what do you mean STOP hitting the mobs when they are at 2% HP? does not compute!!) and TOD (if that dude cant hold aggro off me with all my threat gear on he shouldnt be tanking). When you apply a minor amount of strategy to these encounters they become easy peezy, even with less DPS being applied.

[RuneStriker]

Biggest problem I've seen lately is all the idiots who get into part 3 and despite the leader asking if anyone doesn't know what to do or needs help, they still manage to break crystals or drop water where they shouldn't and lock everyone out of the two middle chests.

Also annoying are all those who use summons after part 1 and cause issues, again despite the party leader clearly instructing no one to do so. This applies to all the clueless FvS AoV's who summon their Archons in part 2 and part 5 before Harry drops as well as all the noobs using the new Xoriat summon trinkets (note to the clueless, beholders and evil eyes will shoot at ANYTHING that is not another player, whether you want them to or not, this includes the crystals).

Personally I would love to see the ability to use summons removed from the Shroud entirely - they are just not necessary.

One or both of these issues have happened in the last 4 of 5 Shrouds I have run this week despite them being fairly clearly voiced for instruction. People just can't be bothered to listen to instruction lately.

[Miow]

Good communication goes a long way not all 11 of the other peeps won't listen. BTW healers will know by part 5 whether or not they need full mana to heal depending on dps...

[Tarragon12]

I wonder what the common element in all those failed shrouds you were in was?

Incompetence of the leaders. But your insinuation is appreciated.

[grodon9999]

Incompetence of the leaders. . .

Then lead your own.

[Tarragon12]

You just have lousy luck. I've been taking the first 11 idiots who hit my LFM for well over a year and there is no issue completing smoothly 99.9% of the time.

Could be a timezone thing, run one at 6 PM eastern and you will not fail.

I run around EU eve time. Hmmm. Maybe its us overseas people.
It seems, Devourer was not deleted for being gimped after all..

[Tarragon12]

Then lead your own.

That would lead to much drama.

[Thrudh]

This is the symptom that stands out the most right here, because right now a good portion of the player base has been convinced that "contribution" and "DPS" are one and the same. They have even developed tools to measure who is better at running into the room, getting into attack animation, boosting that attack animation, and staying nailed to the floor to do the most DPS.

The issue with that is when the view becomes distorted to the point where people believe this is all that matters. Harry in part 4 of the Shroud is that exact encounter - run in and attack, boosting as much as possible. So you see huge amounts of success. This makes raids like Titan and Abbot much harder though, as well as discourages actual strategy in places like Shroud part 2 (ZOMG what do you mean STOP hitting the mobs when they are at 2% HP? does not compute!!) and TOD (if that dude cant hold aggro off me with all my threat gear on he shouldnt be tanking). When you apply a minor amount of strategy to these encounters they become easy peezy, even with less DPS being applied.

Excellent post... sorry I seem to have already given you rep recently.

We're going to see epic levels of fail when the next raid is released, because 80% of the playerbase has been told that full ****** max DPS is the only thing that matters, and have never learned anything about group strategy.

Or maybe the devs will make the next raid boss another "circle him, and hit autoattack while you eat a sandwich" encounter. I have faith in the devs though. I bet it won't be quite that easy.

[Miow]

On the other hand is it group strategy to zerg through the raid? I saw an lfm last night saying they wouldn't even finish part 5 lol

[Thrudh]

When you apply a minor amount of strategy to these encounters they become easy peezy, even with less DPS being applied.

I was in a ToD the other night with a large Thelanis guild...

They used two meat-shields as tanks for Horoth and Suulo... I said, "I can tank Suulo if you want. He can't even hit me on normal." They said "We don't need AC in here. DPS is more important."

The guild clerics drank 2 pots each.

But hey, I got my completion (normally, I'd give them replacement pots, but if the guild wants to play stupid, I don't need to support them)

[grodon9999]

Excellent post... sorry I seem to have already given you rep recently.

We're going to see epic levels of fail when the next raid is released, because 80% of the playerbase has been told that full ****** max DPS is the only thing that matters, and have never learned anything about group strategy.

Or maybe the devs will make the next raid boss another "circle him, and hit autoattack while you eat a sandwich" encounter. I have faith in the devs though. I bet it won't be quite that easy.

i think you're probably right, I haven't seen the new stuff yet but the "In the Flesh" end-fight is definitely not tank-n-spank. On Elite I'd say it's harder than Epic Big Top. I'd like to see more of that.

[Gkar]

Incompetence of the leaders. But your insinuation is appreciated.

If there is a lack of leadership, for example in the coordinating of part 2, then one or two good players stepping up can complete. If something as basic as pt2 fails, that means that everyone in the group failed.

It's easy to blame others, especially when you report you are unwilling to lead the raid yourself.

[Arkat]

Incompetence of the leaders. But your insinuation is appreciated.

Gkar might have meant that maybe YOU should provide the leadership instead. Try putting up your own Shroud LFMs and actually show people how it's done instead of complaining on the DDO Forums.

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness." - John F. Kennedy

[Yazzman]

Or maybe the devs will make the next raid boss another "circle him, and hit autoattack while you eat a sandwich" encounter. I have faith in the devs though. I bet it won't be quite that easy.

Part1 Chrono is kinda fun :) On the other hand, there is a reason why no-one* runs Titan/Abbot... *no-one = almost exlusively in small number of guilds

[grodon9999]

I was in a ToD the other night with a large Thelanis guild...

They used two meat-shields as tanks for Horoth and Suulo... I said, "I can tank Suulo if you want. He can't even hit me on normal." They said "We don't need AC in here. DPS is more important."

The guild clerics drank 2 pots each.

But hey, I got my completion (normally, I'd give them replacement pots, but if the guild wants to play stupid, I don't need to support them)

Going off on a tangent . . . . but what the heck, the original topic of this thread was a troll looking for drama . . . we did three ToDs last night and the one where we barbarian meat-bagged both bosses was by far the smoothest run, and my little 1906 SP cleric didn't drink any pots (neither did the other cleric or the spell-singer bard).

Granted the first run had our caster DC and then got banished and the second run was on a elite and our Horoth tank got disintegrated (fantastic recovery on their part BTW . . .) but still, sometimes a butt-load of DPS is the best strategy.

Is that good game design? Only if you like one-dimensional play. It should be important but they need to throw in some curve-balls like the CAD's special attacks.

[Beld]

Summer is here and I have noticed a lot more failed quests/raids.

I agree that the max DPS mantra has also played a major role in the lack of situational awareness in regards to efficient/complete runs.

Seems to me the pendulum has swung again to the first few weeks of F2P and there are a lot of new/newish players that have brought the 'if you don't succeed, bring a bigger hammer' mentality to a lot of the higher end content, but that could just be the PUGs I am running with :)

[Tarragon12]

Going off on a tangent . . . . but what the heck, the original topic of this thread was a troll looking for drama . . . we did three ToDs last night and the one where we barbarian meat-bagged both bosses was by far the smoothest run, and my little 1906 SP cleric didn't drink any pots (neither did the other cleric or the spell-singer bard).

Granted the first run had our caster DC and then got banished and the second run was on a elite and our Horoth tank got disintegrated (fantastic recovery on their part BTW . . .) but still, sometimes a butt-load of DPS is the best strategy.

Is that good game design? Only if you like one-dimensional play. It should be important but they need to throw in some curve-balls like the CAD's special attacks.

Indeed. There was this similar thread on other server, so i felt like we needed our own. Not that it was not warranted by our shroud runs. Though what you discuss is certainly related.

[MartinusWyllt]

Last night on Thelanis was an exceptionally uncoordinated shroud...we did complete, but it took 4 rounds in part 2 and circling Harry in part 5 seemed difficult, so we had to chase him down a bit. We did complete, it was just unusually long.

[Lemanchot]

This sounds like a promising thread.. I hope the OP feels better after writting! HOW DOES IT FEEL?!?! TO BE WITHOUT A HOME? LIKE A COMPLETE UNKNOWN? LIKE A ROLLING STONE! that's how a shroud should be run... a shroud should be... should shroud shroud should should shroud shroud should zomg confusion 1010010100000111001110 *BEEP CRASH*

[sweez]

This sounds like a promising thread.. I hope the OP feels better after writting! HOW DOES IT FEEL?!?! TO BE WITHOUT A HOME? LIKE A COMPLETE UNKNOWN? LIKE A ROLLING STONE! that's how a shroud should be run... a shroud should be... should shroud shroud should should shroud shroud should zomg confusion 1010010100000111001110 *BEEP CRASH*

I have a weird urge to +1 this.

[Mindspat]

These days, it seems every other shroud run struggles to finish part2.

Then comes the part3. Link to solver is posted, yet frequently three or more people ask for help or trash randomly on the tiles, until rescued by others. Idea of running water seems to be even more alien.


Quite difference from the shroud runs I've been experiancing. Every pug I've joined over the last 3 weeks have been entirely made up of pug'rs wihle each of those runs have been very smooth and quite quick.

I've not experianced a hicup in part 2 in an incredibly long time.

If you can't wait for someone to open a door and solve a puzzle that someone else wasn't able to do for whatever reason then you are part of the problem. the whole purpose and design of the puzzles are in-fact to be rescued by other players who are better at solving puzzles. Are you too frick'n lazy to play the game with the only means of your success reliant on an online cheater puzzle solver - how lame!

I will not use a puzzle solver, even it means I must swallow my pride and exclaim "I can't get this one". Funny how cheaters think they're actually a better player, to each their own.

That Being Said, I've experiance worse organized groups in the last 3 weeks then I have pugs albeit I blame no one.

[ainmosni]

im curious as to how leading your own shrouds will start more drama?

i lead my own shrouds every time, even if there are 4 groups already up with healers or whatever.

then again, i like to create a 'zerg' climate in my shrouds, finish in under 25 minutes, with the first 11 to hit the lfm.

one healer, five healers, no caster, no light monk, 11 rogues (which in ghallanda are apparently known to contribute 0 dps....), whatever. just GITFQ and go.

havent failed a shroud ive led, ever. and they're pug every time.

i think if you go into a group where the leader isnt confident, the rest of the group becomes less confident and therefore begins to shuck.

then again, putting 'shroud ZERG, keep up' in your lfm probably keeps the "THAT GUY IS GOING TWO FAIL BCUZ HE DOSNT WATE 4 GH IN PART 1' types out of your party and the seasoned 'let's just get this **** over with' guys in.

[MartinusWyllt]

...
one healer, five healers, no caster, no light monk, 11 rogues (which in ghallanda are apparently known to contribute 0 dps....), whatever. just GITFQ and go....

Kinda funny to see people drop because of "too many divines/casters/etc."

[Chai]

i think you're probably right, I haven't seen the new stuff yet but the "In the Flesh" end-fight is definitely not tank-n-spank. On Elite I'd say it's harder than Epic Big Top. I'd like to see more of that.

We beat this in PD on elite using strategy only, on toons that would be considered pile ons by DPS number standards.

Then I logged on a double TR and pugged it on hard on another server, and it was **** near a wipe because no one else would listen. If I had a device which fired sould stones at targets for damage, I would have had enough ammo to take the entire quest out. :p

I would like to see more of this type of encounter in raids as well. I dont mind the occasional surround and pound, but it would get old if more of the same entered the game, because the only way to add challenge at that point becomes "more HP" and "moar immunities".

[Chai]

Part1 Chrono is kinda fun :) On the other hand, there is a reason why no-one* runs Titan/Abbot... *no-one = almost exlusively in small number of guilds

I bet if they increased the loot worth having in those quests people would run them more.

[Thriand]

hmmm I've haven't failed a shroud for as long as I can remember, maybe its you.

[Chai]

Or maybe the devs will make the next raid boss another "circle him, and hit autoattack while you eat a sandwich" encounter. I have faith in the devs though. I bet it won't be quite that easy.

I hope they make it something that needs a blunt weapon to break DR, and crittable with 0% fort, and a metric ton of HP. Acid does full damage, resistant to lightning, and fire, and very VERY resistant to cold.

Just take that cookie cutter, and smash it, heh.

[ainmosni]

I hope they make it something that needs a blunt weapon to break DR, and crittable with 0% fort, and a metric ton of HP. Acid does full damage, resistant to lightning, and fire, and very VERY resistant to cold.

Just take that cookie cutter, and smash it, heh.

all the cool kids have min2 mauls anyway



edit: i am not a cool kid.

[Yazzman]

all the cool kids have min2 mauls anyway



edit: i am not a cool kid.

Cool kids use clubs of the holy flame anyway.

[Tarragon12]

Hmmm, ubertoon with supreme tactical skills. Always appreciated in threads like these. +1

im curious as to how leading your own shrouds will start more drama?

i lead my own shrouds every time, even if there are 4 groups already up with healers or whatever.

then again, i like to create a 'zerg' climate in my shrouds, finish in under 25 minutes, with the first 11 to hit the lfm.

one healer, five healers, no caster, no light monk, 11 rogues (which in ghallanda are apparently known to contribute 0 dps....), whatever. just GITFQ and go.

havent failed a shroud ive led, ever. and they're pug every time.

i think if you go into a group where the leader isnt confident, the rest of the group becomes less confident and therefore begins to shuck.

then again, putting 'shroud ZERG, keep up' in your lfm probably keeps the "THAT GUY IS GOING TWO FAIL BCUZ HE DOSNT WATE 4 GH IN PART 1' types out of your party and the seasoned 'let's just get this **** over with' guys in.

[MrWizard]

In the spirit or recently closed thread, i want to discuss pug Shroud running. In the past, when 16 was cap, majority of 15+ toons ran it. Fail was rare and usually due to part4. Pots were rarely drunk.

These days, it seems every other shroud run struggles to finish part2. People start fighting mobs blindly, obviously expecting "others" to provide general strategy. This usually leads to several rounds of failures followed by wipe or sloppy success. Then comes the part3. Link to solver is posted, yet frequently three or more people ask for help or trash randomly on the tiles, until rescued by others. Idea of running water seems to be even more alien.

Part4 is suprisingly the least problem now. Usually 1round bore with nothing going wrong. Proves that while skill and cooperation declines or stagnates, average dps is on the rise.

Part 5 is a success most of the time as well, with a single sad note, that YEARS old practice or renewing mana slowly, which is pretty much obsolete, is still observed without a thought. There is no need of this, unless single lvl17 cleric decides to solo heal despite multiple other being present.
Memory of such a cleric chugging 4 pots in company of generalist FVS and leader who didn't bother to lead.

Back on Keeper, there were no such troubles. Back on Thelanis, there were no such troubles. This leads me to believe that these troubles are almost unique to our almost drama-free yet somewhat noobish(from noob=dual minVI or eSOS wielding incompetent player, not a newbie=player learning the ways of DDO) server.

well, in defense of many....new players don't always know it all...or even come close. And many are from different language backgrounds (or just don't listen).

back in the day...there were lots of exploits and bugs in the shroud that ensured some victories...part4 bugged 100% of the time. Part 2 had exploits that ensured immediate success, or prolonged delay in mobs returning.

it used to be a lower level quest too. Many nerfs to fighting, casting, etc have been handed down also.

different game now...

one day these newbs that are messing up will get karma when they lead a raid full of noobs and bang their own head against the wall..

it is the cycle of life in a MMO

[westudi]

You just have lousy luck. I've been taking the first 11 idiots who hit my LFM for well over a year and there is no issue completing smoothly 99.9% of the time.

Could be a timezone thing, run one at 6 PM eastern and you will not fail.

This. I've even been one of the 11 idiots before. I do the same thing with my fvs, and have yet to fail.

Nowadays, I pretty much only play on weekends or late at night, and regardless of the time, I haven't had any issues.

I find that most people who complain about PUGs failing should look in the mirror. That's just the general observation I have made as a result of doing nothing but PUGing.

[Battery]

I've been taking the first 11 idiots who hit my LFM

so there's hope for me yet!

[sirgog]

Sometimes part 2 is a nightmare when you get a group where people refuse to listen. I've had a few groups where I've told people not to raise specific idiots under any circumstances. Once every other month it's so bad I've recalled.

As for parts 4 and 5 - usually a joke. These parts are (with current tactics) a gear check, and we outgear them so much that even having all the healer-types die stupidly in part 4 is usually fixable. But part 2 is a teamwork check that you can't just brute force through with gear.

[Jiirix]

In the spirit or recently closed thread, i want to discuss pug Shroud running. In the past, when 16 was cap, majority of 15+ toons ran it. Fail was rare and usually due to part4. Pots were rarely drunk.

These days, it seems every other shroud run struggles to finish part2. People start fighting mobs blindly, obviously expecting "others" to provide general strategy. This usually leads to several rounds of failures followed by wipe or sloppy success. Then comes the part3. Link to solver is posted, yet frequently three or more people ask for help or trash randomly on the tiles, until rescued by others. Idea of running water seems to be even more alien.

Part4 is suprisingly the least problem now. Usually 1round bore with nothing going wrong. Proves that while skill and cooperation declines or stagnates, average dps is on the rise.

Part 5 is a success most of the time as well, with a single sad note, that YEARS old practice or renewing mana slowly, which is pretty much obsolete, is still observed without a thought. There is no need of this, unless single lvl17 cleric decides to solo heal despite multiple other being present.
Memory of such a cleric chugging 4 pots in company of generalist FVS and leader who didn't bother to lead.

Back on Keeper, there were no such troubles. Back on Thelanis, there were no such troubles. This leads me to believe that these troubles are almost unique to our almost drama-free yet somewhat noobish(from noob=dual minVI or eSOS wielding incompetent player, not a newbie=player learning the ways of DDO) server.

Thelanis shroud pugs can have several rounds of part 2 too nowadays. Maybe it's because of the new "fire and forget" dot spells? And I often run water 2-4 times while others take a bath in the pool. Renewing mana isn't needed, but I can understand that some leaders feel more comfy with all blue bars at 100%. I have usualy 50% SP left after normal 2-healer-shrouds and 1/3 when solo-healing.