CR Rating and Hit Dice

[Eztrellaa]

Hi All,

I am just trying to get my head around the link between the two above terms. As an example, what would be the dirfference in Hit Dice between a CR2 Skeleton in a low level quest and a CR10 Skeleton in a mid level quest?

The reason I am interested is I was trying to work out how effective "Turn Undead" is at dealing with groups of undead as I level up a cleric. If I make the assumption that CR2 = 2HD and CR10 = 10HD, it appears that my ability to turn groups of undead actually decreases as I level up and go to do higher level quests! all other things being equal like dice rolls and a small increase in charisma modifier etc.

Ez

[Lissyl]

Hi All,

I am just trying to get my head around the link between the two above terms. As an example, what would be the dirfference in Hit Dice between a CR2 Skeleton in a low level quest and a CR10 Skeleton in a mid level quest?

The reason I am interested is I was trying to work out how effective "Turn Undead" is at dealing with groups of undead as I level up a cleric. If I make the assumption that CR2 = 2HD and CR10 = 10HD, it appears that my ability to turn groups of undead actually decreases as I level up and go to do higher level quests! all other things being equal like dice rolls and a small increase in charisma modifier etc.

Ez

From the books, certain abilities can raise (or lower) the CR in relation to the HD. Weaknesses give a lower CR, spells, SLA's, and the like raise CR. For a purely melee, non-special weakness mob, CR should equal HD (the runt minotaurs in Frame Work are a perfect example: CR 10 on normal, 10HD (as evidenced by the ability to nab them with Trap the Soul 1-10). Since the number of HD turned by Turn Undead (in the pnp books, and likely a function thereof in the game) is a 2d6+CL+CHA mod, though, you can see that the number of Undead turned would go way down as undead level rose. Example: A level 10 caster, +2 Sacred bonus rolls 2d6 for maximum 12. That's 24+Cha mod (say...6, for simplicity) or a total of 30. That's 15 2-HD skellies...or a mere 3 of the archer skellies from Delera's. He comes back 5 levels later, CHA bonus up by 2 for a total of 7 more...he hasn't even gotten enough to turn one additional Arcus Skelly yet (!). ((Source: SRD wiki, Turn Undead)).

I think in the game though because of required scaling, the HD calculation starts to change somewhere after about level 12. Maybe MrCow can shed some light on this topic further? IIRC he's the resident monster expert. :)

[TheDjinnFor]

Challenge Rating (CR) is based off of Hit Dice (HD) for PnP mobs and depends on how powerful the base monster type is and how many Player Character (PC) class levels the monster has.

Consider HD to be the monsters 'levels' in a 'monster class'. They get more HP, better BAB/AC/skills/etc. and new attacks.

CR is based off of a monsters HD and PC class levels. Weak monster types (undead, ooze) only increase CR by 1 every two HD. Stronger monster types will do a 3 CR per 4 HD progression, and the strongest do a 1 for 1 progression. All PC classes increase CR by one per class level.


As an example, what would be the dirfference in Hit Dice between a CR2 Skeleton in a low level quest and a CR10 Skeleton in a mid level quest?

If DDO followed PnP convention, the CR 2 skeleton would have an HD of 4, and the CR 10 skeleton would have an HD of 20. Turbine often creates enemies that break classic PnP rules, however (particular orange/red/purple-named monsters), so it's hard to say exactly.


The reason I am interested is I was trying to work out how effective "Turn Undead" is at dealing with groups of undead as I level up a cleric. If I make the assumption that CR2 = 2HD and CR10 = 10HD, it appears that my ability to turn groups of undead actually decreases as I level up and go to do higher level quests! all other things being equal like dice rolls and a small increase in charisma modifier etc.

You're right with that assumption; Turn Undead has, both in PnP and DDO, an extremely horrible rate of scaling to the point where it's really not very useful except for masses of CR 1 undead. In PnP that's not so bad since the ability is pretty weak anyways, but for a DDO cleric there are far better uses (specifically, the Radiant Servant healing Aura and burst). Save the Turns for some of your special abilities.

[Vordax]

If DDO followed PnP convention, the CR 2 skeleton would have an HD of 4, and the CR 10 skeleton would have an HD of 20. Turbine often creates enemies that break classic PnP rules, however (particular orange/red/purple-named monsters), so it's hard to say exactly.

The 2 for 1 is a good baseline if you look at the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) a CR 8, huge undead dragon has 19hd.

Vordax

[cforce]

I recommend a thorough read through this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=135643&highlight=Monster+HD

[MrCow]

Data from 3 years ago on undead and their Hit Dice. You can probably ignore the critters flagged with "Solo" difficulty as that was changed to "Casual" with its own set of monster modifications.


Name Type CR HD Ratio Diff TurnRes TurnHD
Arcane Skeleton Undead 2 3 1.50 Normal 0 3
Arcane Skeleton Undead 3 5 1.67 Hard 0 5
Arcane Skeleton Undead 5 8 1.60 Elite 0 8
Armored Wight Undead 5 6 1.20 Normal 0 6
Armored Wight Undead 7 12 1.71 Hard 0 12
Armored Wight Undead 9 14 1.56 Elite 0 14
Blackbone Thrall Undead 12 24 2.00 Elite 0 24
Canton Parthilcar Undead 7 7 1.00 Hard 7
Captain of the Guard Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Solo 1
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 0.1 1 10.00 Solo 0 1
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 0.25 2 8.00 Normal 0 2
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 0.5 4 8.00 Hard 0 4
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 3 7 2.33 Elite 0 7
Dread Zombie Undead 12 18 1.50 Elite 0 18
Dread Zombie Undead 7 12 1.71 Normal 0 12
Dread Zombie Undead 9 15 1.67 Hard 0 15
Drifting Marauder Undead 8 9 1.13 Normal 2 11
Dwarf Zombie Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Elf Zombie Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Entombed Concubine Undead 7 12 1.71 Normal 0 12
Entombed Slave Undead 7 11 1.57 Normal 0 11
Eternal Hunter Undead 10 14 1.40 Normal 14
Eternal Warrior Undead 10 15 1.50 Normal 15
Eternal Warrior Undead 15 22 1.47 Elite 22
Eternal Wizard Undead 10 14 1.40 Normal 0 14
Frostmarrow Evoker Undead 14 19 1.36 Normal 0 19
Ghast Undead 3 4 1.33 Normal 2 6
Ghast Undead 5 6 1.20 Hard 2 8
Ghast Undead 7 10 1.43 Elite 2 12
Ghoul Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Solo 2 3
Ghoul Undead 1 2 2.00 Normal 2 4
Ghoul Undead 3 4 1.33 Hard 2 6
Ghoul Undead 5 6 1.20 Elite 2 8
Mummy Undead 5 8 1.60 Normal 8
Mummy Guardian Undead 10 12 1.20 Normal 12
Shadow Undead 7 8 1.14 Normal 2 10
Skeleton Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Skeleton Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Normal 0 1
Skeleton Undead 1 3 3.00 Hard 0 3
Skeleton Undead 3 5 1.67 Elite 0 5
Skeleton Arcus Undead 10 15 1.50 Elite 0 15
Skeleton Arcus Undead 6 8 1.33 Normal 0 8
Skeleton Arcus Undead 8 13 1.63 Hard 0 13
Skeleton Skirmisher Undead 2 3 1.50 Normal 0 3
Skeleton Skirmisher Undead 3 5 1.67 Elite 0 5
Skeleton Swordsman Undead 2 3 1.50 Normal 0 3
Skeleton Swordsman Undead 3 5 1.67 Hard 0 5
Skeleton Swordsman Undead 5 8 1.60 Elite 0 8
Skeleton Warrior Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Skeleton Warrior Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Normal 0 1
Slain Guardsman Undead 0.1 1 10.00 Solo 1
Slain Guardsman Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Normal 1
Slain Guardsman Undead 2 3 1.50 Hard 3
Slain Guardsman Undead 3 4 1.33 Elite 4
Spectre Undead 12 12 1.00 Elite 2 14
Spectre Undead 7 7 1.00 Normal 2 9
Spectre Undead 9 9 1.00 Hard 2 11
Umbral Gargoyle Undead 8 11 1.38 Normal 2 13
Umbral Worg Undead 8 11 1.38 Normal 2 13
Vampiric Knight of Vol Undead 14 14 1.00 Normal 14
Vampiric Priest of Vol Undead 14 14 1.00 Normal 14
Wight Undead 3 4 1.33 Normal 0 4
Wight Undead 5 6 1.20 Hard 0 6
Wight Undead 7 12 1.71 Elite 0 12
Wight Myrmidon Undead 7 8 1.14 Normal 0 8
Wight Myrmidon Undead 9 14 1.56 Hard 0 14
Wight Priest Undead 5 6 1.20 Normal 0 6
Wight Priest Undead 7 12 1.71 Hard 0 12
Wight Priest Undead 9 14 1.56 Elite 0 14
Wraith Undead 10 12 1.20 Elite 2 14
Wraith Undead 5 5 1.00 Normal 2 7
Wraith Undead 7 8 1.14 Hard 2 10
Zombie Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Zombie Undead 0.5 2 4.00 Normal 0 2


Command:
Select Name, Type, CR, HD, (CR/HD) as Ratio, Difficulty, TurnResist, HD + TurnResist as TurnHD From monster where Type="Undead" and HD != "" Order By Name


In general for turning:

Skeletons - Have x1.5 HD per CR.
Zombies - Have between x1.5 HD to x2.0 HD per CR.
Wraiths - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Add Turn Resist +2.
Specters - Have x1.0 HD per CR. Add Turn Resist +2.
Shadows - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Add Turn Resist +2.
Vampires - Have x1.0 HD. Add Turn Resist +4.
Wights - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Several wights past CR 6 seem to have a bonus +4 HD.
Ghoul - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Add Turn Resist +2.
Giant Skeletons - Have x1.0 HD per CR.

Undead I never collected data on:

Wheeps
Quells
Cinderspawn

[Lissyl]

Data from 3 years ago on undead and their Hit Dice. You can probably ignore the critters flagged with "Solo" difficulty as that was changed to "Casual" with its own set of monster modifications.


Name Type CR HD Ratio Diff TurnRes TurnHD
Arcane Skeleton Undead 2 3 1.50 Normal 0 3
Arcane Skeleton Undead 3 5 1.67 Hard 0 5
Arcane Skeleton Undead 5 8 1.60 Elite 0 8
Armored Wight Undead 5 6 1.20 Normal 0 6
Armored Wight Undead 7 12 1.71 Hard 0 12
Armored Wight Undead 9 14 1.56 Elite 0 14
Blackbone Thrall Undead 12 24 2.00 Elite 0 24
Canton Parthilcar Undead 7 7 1.00 Hard 7
Captain of the Guard Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Solo 1
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 0.1 1 10.00 Solo 0 1
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 0.25 2 8.00 Normal 0 2
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 0.5 4 8.00 Hard 0 4
Decrepit Skeleton Undead 3 7 2.33 Elite 0 7
Dread Zombie Undead 12 18 1.50 Elite 0 18
Dread Zombie Undead 7 12 1.71 Normal 0 12
Dread Zombie Undead 9 15 1.67 Hard 0 15
Drifting Marauder Undead 8 9 1.13 Normal 2 11
Dwarf Zombie Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Elf Zombie Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Entombed Concubine Undead 7 12 1.71 Normal 0 12
Entombed Slave Undead 7 11 1.57 Normal 0 11
Eternal Hunter Undead 10 14 1.40 Normal 14
Eternal Warrior Undead 10 15 1.50 Normal 15
Eternal Warrior Undead 15 22 1.47 Elite 22
Eternal Wizard Undead 10 14 1.40 Normal 0 14
Frostmarrow Evoker Undead 14 19 1.36 Normal 0 19
Ghast Undead 3 4 1.33 Normal 2 6
Ghast Undead 5 6 1.20 Hard 2 8
Ghast Undead 7 10 1.43 Elite 2 12
Ghoul Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Solo 2 3
Ghoul Undead 1 2 2.00 Normal 2 4
Ghoul Undead 3 4 1.33 Hard 2 6
Ghoul Undead 5 6 1.20 Elite 2 8
Mummy Undead 5 8 1.60 Normal 8
Mummy Guardian Undead 10 12 1.20 Normal 12
Shadow Undead 7 8 1.14 Normal 2 10
Skeleton Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Skeleton Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Normal 0 1
Skeleton Undead 1 3 3.00 Hard 0 3
Skeleton Undead 3 5 1.67 Elite 0 5
Skeleton Arcus Undead 10 15 1.50 Elite 0 15
Skeleton Arcus Undead 6 8 1.33 Normal 0 8
Skeleton Arcus Undead 8 13 1.63 Hard 0 13
Skeleton Skirmisher Undead 2 3 1.50 Normal 0 3
Skeleton Skirmisher Undead 3 5 1.67 Elite 0 5
Skeleton Swordsman Undead 2 3 1.50 Normal 0 3
Skeleton Swordsman Undead 3 5 1.67 Hard 0 5
Skeleton Swordsman Undead 5 8 1.60 Elite 0 8
Skeleton Warrior Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Skeleton Warrior Undead 0.5 1 2.00 Normal 0 1
Slain Guardsman Undead 0.1 1 10.00 Solo 1
Slain Guardsman Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Normal 1
Slain Guardsman Undead 2 3 1.50 Hard 3
Slain Guardsman Undead 3 4 1.33 Elite 4
Spectre Undead 12 12 1.00 Elite 2 14
Spectre Undead 7 7 1.00 Normal 2 9
Spectre Undead 9 9 1.00 Hard 2 11
Umbral Gargoyle Undead 8 11 1.38 Normal 2 13
Umbral Worg Undead 8 11 1.38 Normal 2 13
Vampiric Knight of Vol Undead 14 14 1.00 Normal 14
Vampiric Priest of Vol Undead 14 14 1.00 Normal 14
Wight Undead 3 4 1.33 Normal 0 4
Wight Undead 5 6 1.20 Hard 0 6
Wight Undead 7 12 1.71 Elite 0 12
Wight Myrmidon Undead 7 8 1.14 Normal 0 8
Wight Myrmidon Undead 9 14 1.56 Hard 0 14
Wight Priest Undead 5 6 1.20 Normal 0 6
Wight Priest Undead 7 12 1.71 Hard 0 12
Wight Priest Undead 9 14 1.56 Elite 0 14
Wraith Undead 10 12 1.20 Elite 2 14
Wraith Undead 5 5 1.00 Normal 2 7
Wraith Undead 7 8 1.14 Hard 2 10
Zombie Undead 0.25 1 4.00 Solo 0 1
Zombie Undead 0.5 2 4.00 Normal 0 2


Command:
Select Name, Type, CR, HD, (CR/HD) as Ratio, Difficulty, TurnResist, HD + TurnResist as TurnHD From monster where Type="Undead" and HD != "" Order By Name


In general for turning:

Skeletons - Have x1.5 HD per CR.
Zombies - Have between x1.5 HD to x2.0 HD per CR.
Wraiths - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Add Turn Resist +2.
Specters - Have x1.0 HD per CR. Add Turn Resist +2.
Shadows - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Add Turn Resist +2.
Vampires - Have x1.0 HD. Add Turn Resist +4.
Wights - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Several wights past CR 6 seem to have a bonus +4 HD.
Ghoul - Have x1.0 HD + 1 per CR (so at 8 CR, 9 HD). Add Turn Resist +2.
Giant Skeletons - Have x1.0 HD per CR.

Undead I never collected data on:

Wheeps
Quells
Cinderspawn

I am humbled, and just sorta vaguely nod to look important. :p

Thanks Mr. Cow. :)

[Galeria]

Awesome data. Thanks, Mr Cow.