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View Full Version : The Auction Tax Should be the Lesser of 30,000p and 30%



andepans
07-07-2011, 03:21 PM
1. Players Use the Black Market to Avoid Taxes
It makes very little economic sense to sell an item over 100,000p on the auction. Players know that common items like tomes, shroud and/or epic crafting materials, and highly desirable weapons may be sold with relative ease outside of the auction (i.e. the black market.) Any player can post on his or her's server trade forum and throw a few general chat "WTS's" out there and earn hundreds of thousands of plat. This practice is widespread and undesirable.

2. Black Market Trades Are Inefficient
A flat 30% tax is so prohibitively expensive that, for example, many epic scrolls are not put on auction at all, leaving players to use their bios, unofficial and official trade channels, or the forums to sell an item that could easily be placed into a searchable database that every player can access. Black market sales waste the vendors time through unnecessary marketing and the buyer's time through market research and limited availability. Vendors who do not want to go through the hassle of finding a fair buyer for their expensive items may elect to bank them instead of exchange them for their fair value (less 30,000p) and buy another item.

3. Black Market Trades Do Not Give Players An Indication of Fair Market Value
If every item was placed for sale on the auction, then the price players would be willing to pay for that item would be its value. That is the definition of value. This is not the case in DDO, where sales take place behind the closed doors of /tells. Unless someone has done a "average time to acquire" analysis for every item, I cannot imagine how value could possibly be determined. Market research should consist of moving your eyes a 1/4 inch up and down the auction window.

4. A 30,000/30% Tax Would Eliminate the Black Market and Accomplish the Tax' Original Goals
The Auction Tax presumably simulates the lost time a player must spend marketing his or her commodities and is a tool to reduce platinum inflation. If players choose not to use the auction because the tax is prohibitively high, neither function is achieved. By setting a reasonable 30,000/30% tax, players are encouraged to sell the expensive items that they would otherwise hawk almost exclusively on the black market. Increased use of the auction increases the volume of platinum taken out of circulation, the first goal of the tax. If there isn't a wikipedia article titled "volume, volume, volume" someone should make it immediately. Increased volume allows players to buy the items they do not wish to hunt for and continue playing the rewarding quests that they enjoy, increasing the fun level of the game. Players should not have to waste time shopping or farming for a common, saleable item. This accomplishes the second purpose of the tax.

5. The Black Market is Silly
I want to read about your epic scrolls in your bio as much as I want to read about the raid bosses you've killed and the 9,134 hp heal you made. The best way I've found to use the trade forums is a search of the entire forum (more complicated than a simple sort-by-item-and-level-and-hit-search) that usually comes up with irrelevant threads. Most of the trade chat is garbage and all of the trade chat is non-filterable by level and type. All other methods are a huge step backwards from the auctioneer.

camels
07-07-2011, 03:39 PM
The black market?!?!

you make it sound so dirty. XD
DDO is a "free" market, you can chose to use the AH or not.

i have no reason to explain how economics work, nor do i want to.

the AH is there IMO, for lazy people (like me) who would rather quest then try to sell twink gear in the harbor.

kernal42
07-07-2011, 03:43 PM
I see epic scrolls posted for, and selling for, 2.1 mil pp all the time on the AH.

A more significant reason that some epic scrolls aren't on the AH is that they're worth far more than the 2.1 mil AH cap. Perhaps more importantly, they're worth far more than the ~5 mil per character plat cap.

-Kernal

Cam_Neely
07-07-2011, 03:49 PM
I buy all my most fun things on the black market:)

Ivan_Milic
07-07-2011, 03:50 PM
Why u calling it black market?
Its not illegal,punishable to sell with trade,without using ah.

bando
07-07-2011, 03:50 PM
1. The game comes with a Trade Channel, ergo it's not a "black market"

2. There's an upper price limit on the AH (around 2mil I think), which means that trying to sell an item worth more than 2mil is impossible on the AH unless you're willing to lose money.

3. Most end-game players are not looking to add to their hordes of platinum. We are looking for large devil scales, flawless red dragon scales, or scrolls of the asbestos booties.

There's no point in trying to change my good epic scrolls --> plat --> LDS's when I could just do good epic scrolls --> LDS's.

4. You hit the nail right on the head that the AH is convenient for buyers and sellers. Just like in real life, that convenience comes at a price (30%, here). As a seller, it's really convenient for me to throw my extra Big Top scrolls on the AH and give people 3 days for people to decide to buy it instead of spam-posting "WTTS BIG TOP SCROLL in the trade channel". As a buyer, it's nice for me to browse things to see if there are any deals going on instead of spamming "BORED, WTB THINGS, SEND TELLS IF YOU HAVE THINGS TO TRADE"

5. Those of us who make friends with other players would often make better deals with them privately than we would on the AH. I might post an LDS on the AH for 800k, but I'll trade one to that friendly lady healer on Cannith for 400k if I saw that she was looking for one.

The AH is tons better than it was 2 years ago when it was non-searchable. It's still a valuable tool for me getting rid of the random harry-beater or smiting quarterstaff I find. As someone who goes through a lot of low level characters, too. It's great to be able to find that +3 dex item when I want it.

I am really, really happy by the options we have for buying/selling options in DDO. I think it's one of the game's strongest suits. Yes, the game discourages selling big-ticket items via the AH because of the "tax," but that's a valuable piece of plat-sinking in the game, plus it encourages real interaction and haggling over those big items.

TheDjinnFor
07-07-2011, 04:02 PM
I'm pretty sure the use of Black Market was figurative, guys. Settle down now.

Renvar
07-07-2011, 04:17 PM
The 30% tax is a great way to remove plat from the economy. However, you do find that it hampers trade with higher value items.

The forums and trades channels as well as the AH are full of poorly priced goods both to the low and the high end.

Biggest problem with the AH - Currency limitations. There is no ability to barter. Many players store their wealth in commodities. Red Scales, Large Devil Scales are the two most common. You cannot pay for AH transactions with anything but plat. This is limiting in itself as well as for the following reasons:

Many very valuable items exceed the AH limit of 2 million pp. A more important fix to make the AH more usable would be to raise this cap.

Many very valuable items exceed the character limit of 4 million pp. This would also need to be fixed.

These are more significant an issue in AH usage than the 30% tax.

danotmano1998
07-07-2011, 04:24 PM
While the 30% sure does hurt on some sales, IMO it's not that big of a deal.
Like others have said, it's a convenience.

Painful at times, yes.
Requiring a change? Not IMO.

brian14
07-07-2011, 06:07 PM
I am really, really happy by the options we have for buying/selling options in DDO. I think it's one of the game's strongest suits. Yes, the game discourages selling big-ticket items via the AH because of the "tax," but that's a valuable piece of plat-sinking in the game, plus it encourages real interaction and haggling over those big items.
+1

I would go further, and say that the most fun I've had in DDO is trading motes/coins/whatever during Festivults. I was rather annoyed that almost everything in Crystal Cove event was non-tradeable.

Sleepsalot
07-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Yes I made a Topic on this last week. LoL Great to see a second person talking about the taxes......BTW this is beating a Dead horse so to Say...

Sleeps

Fire_Godd
07-07-2011, 06:23 PM
I strongly second this notion and would be a much happier player if this would take effect.

As of now, every time I plan to make a sale on the good 'ole Auction house. I practice my bending over capability. After I make a sale on the AH, I shower and cry profusely :/

NinetyNineTails
07-07-2011, 07:34 PM
3. Most end-game players are not looking to add to their hordes of platinum. We are looking for large devil scales, flawless red dragon scales, or scrolls of the asbestos booties.

I don't get this, really. Every day, I could go to Thelanis' AH and buy enough LDS to make myself a new T3 GS piece with platinum. How does plat not stay interesting in that world?

andepans
07-08-2011, 01:44 PM
3. Most end-game players are not looking to add to their hordes of platinum. We are looking for large devil scales, flawless red dragon scales, or scrolls of the asbestos booties. . . .

5. Those of us who make friends with other players would often make better deals with them privately than we would on the AH. I might post an LDS on the AH for 800k, but I'll trade one to that friendly lady healer on Cannith for 400k if I saw that she was looking for one.

If the auction system accurately reflected valuation then you could sell everything on the auction, and gift exactly that which you wish to give to your friends, like it works in real life. Imagine going to a friends house with a case (that's 30) of beer, then immediately going to his or her fridge and taking a 6-pack. The fact that most end-game players are not looking to liquidate assets is a symptom of the auction's failure, not evidence that players prefer to barter.



The 30% tax is a great way to remove plat from the economy. However, you do find that it hampers trade with higher value items.

The 30% tax reduces the volume of items sold that are valued over 100k so significantly that it is a terrible way to remove plat from the economy. This is my opinion.


+1

I would go further, and say that the most fun I've had in DDO is trading motes/coins/whatever during Festivults. I was rather annoyed that almost everything in Crystal Cove event was non-tradeable.

I do not enjoy trading motes/coins/whatever. I would die alone and hungry if I was teleported into the middle ages and forced to barter for my living. I suspect most players also prefer running quests, having a conversation, etc. to trying to sell items.