AC and hps to tank Horoth?

[Thrudh]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

[grodon9999]

http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/showpost.php?p=3402132&postcount=5


77/83/91 are the magic numbers for Horoth's melee attacks to only hit on a 20, assuming Exhaustion is used. Lower ACs can still be useful - an AC nine points lower than these figures will make half of all melee attacks miss.

Beware, he can still do a lot of damage (far more than any other raid boss except the Abbot) outside of melee. Don't neglect HP, don't neglect saves, and most importantly, do have some contingency plan for a tank death during Blasphemy, a healer DC/lagspike, or whatever else causes it.

I personally prefer a 0 AC human barbarian with very high healing amp on Elite Horoth (you can heal them with only scrolls if two people use a scroll almost every cooldown), although it can certainly be done in many ways.

Suulo requires 77/82/87 to hit an AC tank only on a 20 (4 higher than VoD as he has Shavarath Greater Heroism here, otherwise he appears to be the same mob except for his HP), and Suulo really can't do much damage at all outside of melee.

I like 700 HP on a toon with enough AC to get missed most of the time, some people do it with less but I'm kinda conservative.

at 87 AC, Meathelmet's healer is usually meleeing Horoth more than healing on hard. On Elite i feel like Rhiana after a night with Chris Brown (for you old folks, think Tina and Ike Turner . . .). Still need that chattering ring . . .

And don't count on paladin aura unless you are the paladin! I'm TRing right now with three Paladins who'll have AC aura and I have a few others in my guild, and I still won't count on it :)

[Hobgoblin]

only thing i see for tanking horoth is the comparativly low hp.

you will be fine, right untill you roll a 1 on a disintrigrate. then you will be knocked down to 40-50 and are danger of getting either killed by meele, or taking a meteor storm to the face.

the ac should be a nice cushion though

hob

[maddmatt70]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

There are many ways to look at this. The more people that you have healing the less gaps there will be such that you will be close to full hp the entire time and thus a disintegrate will not be likely to kill you nor will just regular damage. I have tanked Horoth on normal and hard with my 610 hp paladin who has very good healing amp, but no ac. My paladin does have issues though because if the healers get stunned (no lt monk) or he could roll a 1 on a disintegrate and be obliterated. It really depends on the party and a variety of factors and you are almost certainly a better sulu tank then horoth tank.

[Thrudh]

you are almost certainly a better sulu tank then horoth tank.

Yeah, that is what it sounds like... Thanks for all the input guys... I'll stick to Suulo for a while... Maybe after I get madstone boots, a little more AC, and maybe a +4 CON tome, I'll try tanking Horoth.

[Thrudh]

And don't count on paladin aura unless you are the paladin!

And you can't count on bards either! They seem to have disappeared lately from the ToD raids I go on.

[Junts]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

The theoretical max ac to always be missed (except crits) is 86 on hard and 94 on elite for Horoth. Keep in mind that this is lowered by more than just your ac, like exhaustion and/or the fvs aura (meaning as low as 89 ac will be enough to take only grazes and 20s from Horoth on elite).

HP wise, I'd feel comfortable tanking hard with 560-580 if you have the ac, but below 600 is really iffy for elite. The problem isn't even stuns so much as simply ensuring that between badges and grazes (remember on elite he grazes you on 12-19 for 40-50 a swing) keeping your hp high enough to live through a disintegrate. 700 isnt necessary but it helps, and more hp helps a lot if you swing down below the maxed out number.

I usually tank elite at 627 and I rarely die unless something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession. There's always the chance that any tank is screwed by getting disintegrated during a blasphemy or having blasphemy go off when they're at 1/3 health or the like, but I've lived through blasphemies at half hp before becuase of the ability to block during daze (getting back the dex ac you're losing from the +5, and getting the dr). There's pretty much no tank that's totally safe from death - a disintegrate during power word: stun is about 900 damage, so even barbs might die to that. I also don't have evasion, but I do have enough ac to reliably get missed as much as possible.

I don't have sheild mastery: if you do, you'll probably find it a bit easier overall with that stacking damage removal.


There's no reason besides your ac being low you can't tank horoth on hard. Elite is a long ways off, though: you want 89 with fvs+exhaust or 91 with exhaust for that. Your hp aren't in the best shape but they're adequate if your ac was actually present. As it is, though, you can definitely tank normal.

[grodon9999]

And you can't count on bards either! They seem to have disappeared lately from the ToD raids I go on.

bards are a lot more plentiful than pallys with aura.

[Indoran]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

and get heal amp 20% at least

[grodon9999]

and get heal amp 20% at least

Oh ****, this is so right, can't believe I forgot it.

have 20% (ring) and 30% (Claw-set) on my guy and it's a huge part in keeping him alive. I would get at least 20% in some way, shape, or form before doing this.

[Sweyn]

A lot of people say 650-700 for horoth, but i'd like at least 800 HP. At least that's what i feel comfortable on my melee and healers. When i was level 18 on my TR barb i had ~720 HP. One run the main tank died and i had to take over, with that many HP i felt as though the healers were having to put a lot more effort into healing me. Once I hit cap before i TR'd into HO, i had ~900 HP, and i felt as comfortable as can be taking horoth.

Last night i ran my healer through ToD, the main tank had ~750 HP, and i felt like his HP was dropping to rapidly and i was throwing too many heals. For me at least i prefer 800+ HP for horoth.

To me AC is not as viable as HP for tanking horoth. He does so much non-melee damage (Disintegrate, meteor swarm, DOTs, etc..) that having even 100 AC will not mitigate too much damage.

[grodon9999]

To me AC is not as viable as HP for tanking horoth. He does so much non-melee damage (Disintegrate, meteor swarm, DOTs, etc..) that having even 100 AC will not mitigate too much damage.

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

[Junts]

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

If you need 700 to do it with ac, then your healers are not very good at this.

[MrFister]

As a FvS beholden to the sovereign host, healing amp is awesome. Last ToD I ran, I spent nearly all my spell points stacking Divine Punishment on Horoth, while using Heal scrolls and capstone CLW to keep the tank at/above 90% hp.

[maddmatt70]

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

Yeah your ac is a little low. You said mid to high 80s so you probably need more of a cushion.

[Junts]

Yeah your ac is a little low. You said mid to high 80s so you probably need more of a cushion.

In runs where I happen to not have ship buffs for some reason, I tank at 88 - and I still don't feel like I'm missing 100 hit points or something.

Its a little harder, but it's not that big a difference.

Junk, don't you insist on always having light monks in your elite runs, too? I can't imagine why you're that worried about it in that case.

[Sweyn]

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

[maddmatt70]

A lot of people say 650-700 for horoth, but i'd like at least 800 HP. At least that's what i feel comfortable on my melee and healers. When i was level 18 on my TR barb i had ~720 HP. One run the main tank died and i had to take over, with that many HP i felt as though the healers were having to put a lot more effort into healing me. Once I hit cap before i TR'd into HO, i had ~900 HP, and i felt as comfortable as can be taking horoth.

Last night i ran my healer through ToD, the main tank had ~750 HP, and i felt like his HP was dropping to rapidly and i was throwing too many heals. For me at least i prefer 800+ HP for horoth.

To me AC is not as viable as HP for tanking horoth. He does so much non-melee damage (Disintegrate, meteor swarm, DOTs, etc..) that having even 100 AC will not mitigate too much damage.

Sowen you have been gone for awhile things have changed. For one the abashi set added 3 more to ac so its easier to attain a higher ac. Second you have never run with a high ac characer really I can tell from your comment here. I regularly run grumblegut my ac rogue (low 90s ac) twice a week on elite Horoth w/sulu and only require one healer and can be healed with just the FVS healing capstone and heal scrolls. There are about a dozen builds that with the gear can tank and its super easy to heal. AC is superior then hit points really what this says to me is you run with the wrong people.

[grodon9999]

If you need 700 to do it with ac, then your healers are not very good at this.

As you said above . . .




. . . I usually tank elite at 627 and I rarely die unless something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession.

We both roll with great healers but stuff happens. I've only died once on Horoth is is less often than rarely :) That was when my friend's bard was scroll-healing me as the only healer and he spaced out and accidentally dragged his scrolls off of the tool bar. We give him grief to this day as the only healer who ever let Meathelmet die :)

As you also said above, "something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession." And this does happen, I've seen 800+ HP fighters go from full HP to 0 in about 1 second when badges tick, meteor swarm bukakee hits, and then they roll 1 on the disintegrate. And this was on NORMAL.

[Sweyn]

Sowen you have been gone for awhile things have changed. For one the abashi set added 3 more to ac so its easier to attain a higher ac. Second you have never run with a high ac characer really I can tell from your comment here. I regularly run grumblegut my ac rogue (low 90s ac) twice a week on elite Horoth w/sulu and only require one healer and can be healed with just the FVS healing capstone and heal scrolls. There are about a dozen builds that with the gear can tank and its super easy to heal. AC is superior then hit points really what this says to me is you run with the wrong people.

That is true, i haven't really been in a group with a "True" ac tank. You have me curious to see it now.

[Junts]

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

It isn't that hard to do if you prepare properly, and the window where you even have to worry about 'holding' aggro is pretty short - once everyone else goes to fight Suulomades, you could spend half ytour time blocking if you wanted and you'd have no chance of losing aggro by the time they get back.

Further, most people are smart enough to save smites/haste boosts/etc until Suulomades and don't burn them on the innitial horoth whacking, so its easier to hold aggro there than it would seem.

If you're really stressed about it, you can always grab initial aggro in a DPS mode, then swap away when the party leaves. When we do hard or elite speed runs, I tank with my epic sos+righteousness when I have all the healers available, then swap to shield when everyone else is on Suulo so I can be healed by a single person easily.

Aggro issues are bigger if you tank vod regularly, since he resets aggro so frequently. Vod is way easier, thoguh, with a lower ac threshold, so its easier to make other gear swaps that increase your dps and consequently your threat, like power attack, twfing, etc.

When you're packing +235% threat and 16% doublestrike with a silver chaosblade, its actually not nearly as hard to hold aggro as it might initially seem :)

[Sweyn]

AC is superior then hit points really what this says to me is you run with the wrong people.
Not wrong, just different playstyle. We can complete elite ToD with no pots with a 900 HP barb just as fast as you can complete an elite ToD with no pots with a 90 AC tank. It doesn't really matter, it's just different.

[Junts]

As you said above . . .



We both roll with great healers but stuff happens. I've only died once on Horoth is is less often than rarely :) That was when my friend's bard was scroll-healing me as the only healer and he spaced out and accidentally dragged his scrolls off of the tool bar. We give him grief to this day as the only healer who ever let Meathelmet die :)

As you also said above, "something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession." And this does happen, I've seen 800+ HP fighters go from full HP to 0 in about 1 second when badges tick, meteor swarm bukakee hits, and then they roll 1 on the disintegrate. And this was on NORMAL.

The thing is pretty much everyone dies in those situations: That you havent is as much a testament to having been fortunate as it is to having 80 more hit points. Last week, one of my guildies got an 890 pt disintegrate during a power word stun: find me a build who lives through that!

The thing is, dying doesn't matter anymore - it takes me about 12 seconds to get Horoth back (cast death ward, cast elec resistance, activate unyielding sov, reactivate stance, intimidate). That even restores you to the top of the threat list, and you can easily block while waiting for refreshers of ac buffs before you go back to swinging. Even the hp he regains isn't an issue - Suulo has so many more hp and better overall defenses that he's a much bigger worry than another 12% hp on Horoth, and it might lengthen the raid by maybe 20 seconds if you happen to die.

Since you -always- can die, its imprudent to plan as though it won't happen. That I die once every 3 or 4 runs has more to do with the fact that we don't insist on ideal party makeups than any other variance - I'd say theres probably not a light monk in more than 1/4 of my tower runs, and they're frequently done with only 2 people who can heal in total, and one of those being the person who's job it is to sing songs as well.

I've seen the way you build your elite towers - you don't have any business dying, and you wouldn't be dying in groups like that with 650 hp either.

[grodon9999]

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.


My DDO the guys from this picture: http://imageshack.us/f/94/run1i.jpg/ At least two of them were using ESoSs with Devils Ruin crystals and I think everyone had the Claw set.

This was an Elite Run though I was on Sulu. We typically use my fighter on Sulu on Elite because he's got the best threat to indestructible ratio of anyone in the guild. 5 second head-start and everyone goes ape, the faster we get Sulu killed the less likely we are to see anything strang happen with the Horoth team.

[Junts]

Not wrong, just different playstyle. We can complete elite ToD with no pots with a 900 HP barb just as fast as you can complete an elite ToD with no pots with a 90 AC tank. It doesn't really matter, it's just different.

They both work: the biggest advantage to ac IMO is that it provides you with more flexibility for the rest of the group, and its potentially faster overall because you can bring less healers.

I absolutely hate making people switch characters or waiting for a specific class or finding someone to play a specific role: I have an ac character for tower because I want to absolutely not care who the other 9 characters are after myself and a couple people with mass cure light and moderate and heal scrolls - I've made bards kite, I've done elites without casters at all, etc.

I absolutely refuse to **** around and be picky about who's there or ask someone to run a character besides the one they feel like playing today. An AC tank gives everyone else far, far more flexibility and allows the raid leader to spend the least amount of time ****ing around with composition.

I personally believe that every time someone says "We need a _____, who wants to switch?", god actually kills a poor child in India.

[Sweyn]

My DDO the guys from this picture: http://imageshack.us/f/94/run1i.jpg/ At least two of them were using ESoSs with Devils Ruin crystals and I think everyone had the Claw set.

This was an Elite Run though I was on Sulu. We typically use my fighter on Sulu on Elite because he's got the best threat to indestructible ratio of anyone in the guild. 5 second head-start and everyone goes ape, the faster we get Sulu killed the less likely we are to see anything strang happen with the Horoth team.

I never said you couldn't, i just said if you could make it work then go for it. Looks like you did, congrats.

[maddmatt70]

Not wrong, just different playstyle. We can complete elite ToD with no pots with a 900 HP barb just as fast as you can complete an elite ToD with no pots with a 90 AC tank. It doesn't really matter, it's just different.

Can with no pots? What does this really mean. I have run with barbs and this has not really been my observation especially when taking out sulu as well. The healers always drink pots when you fight Horoth and Sulu and use non massive healing amped or ac characters at least if you do not take 4 healers with you or something of that nature. Barbarians make lousy tanks from a resource standpoint. Now if you would have said FVS, or Sorc or Wiz tank that might make sense from a resource perspective. We have been having warforge sorcs tank Sulu to great success on elite.

[Junts]

My DDO the guys from this picture: http://imageshack.us/f/94/run1i.jpg/ At least two of them were using ESoSs with Devils Ruin crystals and I think everyone had the Claw set.

This was an Elite Run though I was on Sulu. We typically use my fighter on Sulu on Elite because he's got the best threat to indestructible ratio of anyone in the guild. 5 second head-start and everyone goes ape, the faster we get Sulu killed the less likely we are to see anything strang happen with the Horoth team.

We occaisionally have an ac tank on Suulo, but its really rare in our guild to have two ac toons in the same party. I pretty much always take Horoth and the Suulo tank is usually 'whoever gets the aggro'. Suulo party healer+person tanking + anyone else who happens to help with curses is usually enough. Every now and then someone may be cursed 3 times in a row and die, but its generally a pretty insignificant thing.

If possible, I prefer to get FVS healers onto the Suulo party. Unless I've died in pt 1 or 2 and am in desperate need of the aura to reduce Horoth's to-hit, I generally find its far better to get the debuff rolling on Suulo from the aura of retribution, and if I was tanking him I'd actually drop my ac to stack the debuff as much as possible. Reducing Suulo's fort by 20-50% is the single best thing you can do to speed up a tower run, and its worth the risk of a tank death to maintain a debuff stack on him as high as possible.

[grodon9999]

The thing is pretty much everyone dies in those situations: That you havent is as much a testament to having been fortunate as it is to having 80 more hit points. Last week, one of my guildies got an 890 pt disintegrate during a power word stun: find me a build who lives through that!

OUCH! Dang, that had to hurt! That might even kill Axer! :)



The thing is, dying doesn't matter anymore - it takes me about 12 seconds to get Horoth back (cast death ward, cast elec resistance, activate unyielding sov, reactivate stance, intimidate). That even restores you to the top of the threat list, and you can easily block while waiting for refreshers of ac buffs before you go back to swinging. Even the hp he regains isn't an issue - Suulo has so many more hp and better overall defenses that he's a much bigger worry than another 12% hp on Horoth, and it might lengthen the raid by maybe 20 seconds if you happen to die.

Absolutely agree, that intim change worked out perfectly for us.



Since you -always- can die, its imprudent to plan as though it won't happen. That I die once every 3 or 4 runs has more to do with the fact that we don't insist on ideal party makeups than any other variance - I'd say theres probably not a light monk in more than 1/4 of my tower runs, and they're frequently done with only 2 people who can heal in total, and one of those being the person who's job it is to sing songs as well.

You may not bring a light monk, but your cleric of choice has a Pale Lavender Ioun stone which is the same thing :)



I've seen the way you build your elite towers - you don't have any business dying, and you wouldn't be dying in groups like that with 650 hp either.


If you saw our three back-to-back-to-back Elite ToDs thread from a few weeks back, some of those runs were FAR from optimal.

[grodon9999]

We occaisionally have an ac tank on Suulo, but its really rare in our guild to have two ac toons in the same party. I pretty much always take Horoth and the Suulo tank is usually 'whoever gets the aggro'. Suulo party healer+person tanking + anyone else who happens to help with curses is usually enough. Every now and then someone may be cursed 3 times in a row and die, but its generally a pretty insignificant thing.

If possible, I prefer to get FVS healers onto the Suulo party. Unless I've died in pt 1 or 2 and am in desperate need of the aura to reduce Horoth's to-hit, I generally find its far better to get the debuff rolling on Suulo from the aura of retribution, and if I was tanking him I'd actually drop my ac to stack the debuff as much as possible. Reducing Suulo's fort by 20-50% is the single best thing you can do to speed up a tower run, and its worth the risk of a tank death to maintain a debuff stack on him as high as possible.

We do the opposite usually, put the AC guy on Sulu and the meatbag on Horoth. The curses are just a pain in the balls. If we use a Cleric it usually works out great as they can heal with Aura and dump their whole Blue-bar into Divine Punishment.

This is what I LOVE about tower, there's so many ways you can skin this cat and all are viable. We need more raids like this.

[Thrudh]

We do the opposite usually, put the AC guy on Sulu and the meatbag on Horoth. The curses are just a pain in the balls.

Yeah, that's how I like it too... You need someone dedicated to removing curses on the Suulo tank if said tank is a low AC high hp build... Put a high AC tank on Suulo and he can handle his own curses.

[Junts]

OUCH! Dang, that had to hurt! That might even kill Axer! :)



Absolutely agree, that intim change worked out perfectly for us.



You may not bring a light monk, but your cleric of choice has a Pale Lavender Ioun stone which is the same thing :)




If you saw our three back-to-back-to-back Elite ToDs thread from a few weeks back, some of those runs were FAR from optimal.

Its lovely to be healed by Fanfare, but it certainly doesn't happen to me as often as I'd like. Most runs, I'm dealing with both of us being stunned on every Blasphemy.

If we have a 3rd person capable of healing at all (IE one of the casters is a heal scrolling sorc), we'll often put them on 'healscroll the Horoth healer' duty when a blasphemy is called out. FVS and air savants are particularly awesome at that - wing over, throw scroll, cut stun duration in half basically. Having them heal the healer instead of me cuts down the distance they have to travel significantly.

[grodon9999]

I personally believe that every time someone says "We need a _____, who wants to switch?", god actually kills a poor child in India.

This is true, but I hate poor-children so it's a win-win.

[maddmatt70]

Yeah, that's how I like it too... You need someone dedicated to removing curses on the Suulo tank if said tank is a low AC high hp build... Put a high AC tank on Suulo and he can handle his own curses.

hmm either you go with a warforge or the healing on the main tank is so little you can just rotate the healers around to heal the sulu tank and spread the healers' mana more around that way.

[maddmatt70]

They both work: the biggest advantage to ac IMO is that it provides you with more flexibility for the rest of the group, and its potentially faster overall because you can bring less healers.

I absolutely hate making people switch characters or waiting for a specific class or finding someone to play a specific role: I have an ac character for tower because I want to absolutely not care who the other 9 characters are after myself and a couple people with mass cure light and moderate and heal scrolls - I've made bards kite, I've done elites without casters at all, etc.

I absolutely refuse to **** around and be picky about who's there or ask someone to run a character besides the one they feel like playing today. An AC tank gives everyone else far, far more flexibility and allows the raid leader to spend the least amount of time ****ing around with composition.

I personally believe that every time someone says "We need a _____, who wants to switch?", god actually kills a poor child in India.

I full endorse this philosophy. I hate formulaic approaches to things that force people to swap to characters they do not want to run, I hate waiting for the perfect group, and I like running things on the hardest difficulty the group can manage. Ran 4 epic dragon and 4 epic dqs last night and had one run where we had a monk, 4 casters, 2 ranged rangers, 1 bard and 3 cleric/fvs and another run where we had 2 healers, 7 melee, 1 bard, 2 casters both succeeded and neither run we had to wait and people got to run what they wanted on both runs which is a win.

[grodon9999]

I full endorse this philosophy. I hate formulaic approaches to things that force people to swap to characters they do not want to run, I hate waiting for the perfect group, and I like running things on the hardest difficulty the group can manage. Ran 4 epic dragon and 4 epic dqs last night and had one run where we had a monk, 4 casters, 2 ranged rangers, 1 bard and 3 cleric/fvs and another run where we had 2 healers, 7 melee, 1 bard, 2 casters both succeeded and neither run we had to wait and people got to run what they wanted on both runs which is a win.

but those are epic raids, not Elite Tower :)

[Thrudh]

Ran 4 epic dragon and 4 epic dqs last night

Also, you play too much.

:)

[mute_mayhem]

We occaisionally have an ac tank on Suulo, but its really rare in our guild to have two ac toons in the same party. I pretty much always take Horoth and the Suulo tank is usually 'whoever gets the aggro'. Suulo party healer+person tanking + anyone else who happens to help with curses is usually enough. Every now and then someone may be cursed 3 times in a row and die, but its generally a pretty insignificant thing.

If possible, I prefer to get FVS healers onto the Suulo party. Unless I've died in pt 1 or 2 and am in desperate need of the aura to reduce Horoth's to-hit, I generally find its far better to get the debuff rolling on Suulo from the aura of retribution, and if I was tanking him I'd actually drop my ac to stack the debuff as much as possible. Reducing Suulo's fort by 20-50% is the single best thing you can do to speed up a tower run, and its worth the risk of a tank death to maintain a debuff stack on him as high as possible.

The FvS aura (-2 to-hit, ac, saves, sr) does not apply to any enemy that is immune to fear, which includes Horoth and Suulomades. But you are right that stacking the crown of retribution on Suulo allows for a much faster beat down, I just have to remember to put the crown on the tank...

[Junts]

but those are epic raids, not Elite Tower :)

Which is to say, its a raid people actually are more likely to need to run a specific toon for as opposed to anything that's off timer, because they're a lot more likely to need a specific ring than they are a specific base item.

That makes flexible composition more important, not less: I don't want to run my caster in tod elites because he has no reason to run it, but running random epic raids with him is the same as all my other toons because he's just hunting sos shards or red scales or whatever.

Making sure my monk actually gets to run tod on timer is important: she still needs a fb ring. And ditto that for the others, with different rings (a ravager for jaerlach, shintao for aryenne and falstian).

Having to run a toon you already have the items you want for (especially likely for extra casters and healers, since those characters tend to not need as specific a set of rings, or to want items that are competed for less than the ravager/shintao combo) is a big burden. Most players are likely to have their healers already equipped and still have more melees who need melee rings. Gotta get as many of those people in as you can.

[coolpenguin410]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

This is pretty close to what I have on my WF SD tank. I usually do very well as the Horoth tank on normal. I can't vouch for Hard or Elite, though. I have somewhere around 567 HP unbuffed, IIRC.

In one really good group, I had a buffed AC around 85 and Horoth barely touched me. I can reliably maintain an AC of 80 in most groups and the healer's job is a cake walk.

[grodon9999]

Which is to say, its a raid people actually are more likely to need to run a specific toon for as opposed to anything that's off timer, because they're a lot more likely to need a specific ring than they are a specific base item.

That makes flexible composition more important, not less: I don't want to run my caster in tod elites because he has no reason to run it, but running random epic raids with him is the same as all my other toons because he's just hunting sos shards or red scales or whatever.

Making sure my monk actually gets to run tod on timer is important: she still needs a fb ring. And ditto that for the others, with different rings (a ravager for jaerlach, shintao for aryenne and falstian).

Having to run a toon you already have the items you want for (especially likely for extra casters and healers, since those characters tend to not need as specific a set of rings, or to want items that are competed for less than the ravager/shintao combo) is a big burden. Most players are likely to have their healers already equipped and still have more melees who need melee rings. Gotta get as many of those people in as you can.

My fighter, who is by far my most valuable toon for this raid, needs ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from tower. He has every ring he could possibly want and luckily got them kind of early. I still run it twice a week (though i'm taking two weeks off to TR my main) because my friends need rings, trophies, and chances of not getting +4 tomes.

I don't consider getting my friends/guildies equipped to be a burden, neither do the rest of the people I run with.

[LeLoric]

My fighter, who is by far my most valuable toon for this raid, needs ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from tower. He has every ring he could possibly want and luckily got them kind of early. I still run it twice a week (though i'm taking two weeks off to TR my main) because my friends need rings, trophies, and chances of not getting +4 tomes.

I don't consider getting my friends/guildies equipped to be a burden, neither do the rest of the people I run with.

It's not necessarily a burden but it's better if you can also run a raid with a character you have that needs an item. That's what more flexible parties allow.

[grodon9999]

It's not necessarily a burden but it's better if you can also run a raid with a character you have that needs an item. That's what more flexible parties allow.

burden wasn't a word I used.

+4 Tomes drop, I've gotten 4 from tower. Sure the drop rate blows but it's the only place I've gotten any. Large Shroud ingredients drop in the Sulu chest all the time. Who doesn't need those?

[Junts]

burden wasn't a word I used.

+4 Tomes drop, I've gotten 4 from tower. Sure the drop rate blows but it's the only place I've gotten any. Large Shroud ingredients drop in the Sulu chest all the time. Who doesn't need those?

Right, but imagine for a moment you dont have the time to timer every character. I'm sure some of your guildies are in that situation.

If they only have time to keep 2 of their 5 chars on timer in a week, don't they kind of want it to be the characters who still need rings?

Allowing those people flexibility is key.

[Emili]

Medal of Cruel, Pain Badge of Death, Honor of Fools

Those are the case... usually when a tank goes down it's due the healer is not paying attention, is distracted or temporarily detained. ;) (lagged or stunned)...

I mention those above because while 30-50 per tick every three seconds each, that winged rat B@stard likes to stack/stagger them so they become either 60-100 plus 30-50 every two seconds or 90-150 every three to five on the average. ;)

Pure case: Matt's AC toon Grumblegut is one of the best I seen for tanking him ... and reasons being I believe is the combination he has. Now Am pretty sure a high AC pally with an evasive option would also be a good choice too. I think for an AC based tank on him that decent saves seem to poise a lot of deflection of damages too...

Here's what I've seen from my perspective and in observing others:

While his melee attacks come in at 90 to 115 on elite he is a slow melee in number of attempts Horoth is more akin a mean meleeing caster mob as he tends to queue up spells flail spell spell flail spell flail in such order. The Disintegrate save is bout 40 which am not quite sure I do know 42 saved me a few times while DBF is mid 30s... Keeping the brunt of the high spikes down seem key at lower 600hp realms and of course the higher the buffer above 600 the better.

[Thrudh]

Right, but imagine for a moment you dont have the time to timer every character. I'm sure some of your guildies are in that situation.

If they only have time to keep 2 of their 5 chars on timer in a week, don't they kind of want it to be the characters who still need rings?

Exactly. Very few people play as much as you do Grodon...

I do 2 ToDs a week... Occasionally, I'll bring in my healer who doesn't need a ring, but I'm not going to bring him in every single run, and NEVER give my other characters any chances.

[Emili]

My fighter, who is by far my most valuable toon for this raid, needs ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from tower. He has every ring he could possibly want and luckily got them kind of early. I still run it twice a week (though i'm taking two weeks off to TR my main) because my friends need rings, trophies, and chances of not getting +4 tomes.

I don't consider getting my friends/guildies equipped to be a burden, neither do the rest of the people I run with.

While I'll bring my melee there ... they can very well get +4 tomes from epics as I seen just as many pop from epic raids. The last +4 I seen was Wis tome - my pally pulled it - although she could have used it I looked at the group there and gave it up. Often I will play a swing character just to play the game but all the same is nice when you're getting multiple chances of rewards you might be able - and still can - use.

[grodon9999]

Right, but imagine for a moment you dont have the time to timer every character. I'm sure some of your guildies are in that situation.

If they only have time to keep 2 of their 5 chars on timer in a week, don't they kind of want it to be the characters who still need rings?

Allowing those people flexibility is key.


I myself don't timer all my characters, I have 4 capped toons and typically run tower 6 times a week. But my most valuable guy just happens to be the one who doesn't need anything (120 runs in life one . . . Junk still couldn't get a friggin Shintao ring . . . sigh . . .) and he gets run almost every time he's needed.

We just don't have this as an issue for whatever reason, nobody in the group I run with minds switching out toons if it makes things easier for everyone. We also have people raising toons specifically to help others out (there are 5 Meathelmet clones last time I checked) for ToD and other raids/quests. it's probably because we usually do three runs in a row so if you want to bring something we'll find some way to squeeze it in in that night.

[maddmatt70]

but those are epic raids, not Elite Tower :)

The more I play post update 9 the more I disagree. FVS do the most dps in DDO with their darn divine punishment. You can easily replace all the melee in an elite tower with spell casters. Only thing is you can not have all 12 characters in the raid be all melee because they need some sort of healing and it is inefficient for all 12 melee to heal themselves not to mention difficult. That players have so much flexibility is bad and good. DDO is becoming far too individualistic for my taste. I like groups with defined roles and find that fun, but on the other hand it is nice to not have to wait for the perfect group or whatever and just play. Spellcasters are so OP right now in so many ways.

[grodon9999]

The more I play post update 9 the more I disagree. FVS do the most dps in DDO with their darn divine punishment. You can easily replace all the melee in an elite tower with spell casters. Only thing is you can not have all 12 characters in the raid be all melee because they need some sort of healing and it is inefficient for all 12 melee to heal themselves not to mention difficult. That players have so much flexibility is bad and good. DDO is becoming far too individualistic for my taste. I like groups with defined roles and find that fun, but on the other hand it is nice to not have to wait for the perfect group or whatever and just play. Spellcasters are so OP right now in so many ways.

I'd LOVE to try a 12 melee ToD, I'm absolutely sure we could do it and it'd be a fun change of pace though to be honest i don't think i'd be than hard.

My joke was referring to Elite ToD (hell, hard even) being harder than the epic raids. I've taken some real cross-eyed groups into eChrono that did very well, EDQ is an absolute joke now, and Dragon's easier than Chrono.

But yeah . . . and it's a topic for another conversation . . . I've been noticing that as well regarding the individualistic approach that's come to this game lately. I'm still not sure if it's good or bad as though I get where you're coming from it's kinda fun to play those toons. What is nice is that different toons can play different roles just fine, that flexibility I like.

[grodon9999]

Spellcasters are so OP right now in so many ways.

We're bordering going off on a tangent . . . oh what the heck . . .

I think casters are APPROPRIATELY powered right now in regards to the damage output they can do. I'm an old-school D&Der and the pre-U9 method of the caster's just being to mass-hold mobs for me to heavy-pick was just way more stupid that what we have now. More changes need to be made so melees can be more than just flavor builds, hopefully we'll see them sooner rather than later.

[MrWizard]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

lowest hit points I ever tanked on normal/horoth was 497. Luckily I did not roll a 1 on disintegrate. Nice to have 600+, less than that and just pray no one is rolled or the healer is keeping you topped off.

This is with an ac tank with high dr though. A no ac tank with less DR I would assume you would be taking 80+ damage every second or two and need a lot more HP to stay above 520 hit points.

76 AC on your own is more than enough. Done it 72 self buffed in a no caster/bard/pally run once on normal. A bit rougher.

Currently tank him with about 630+ hit points.

[MrWizard]

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

The last few times I ran tod there were people who were wearing their claw sets and epicly geared. I tanked using sword/board/stalwart which greatly increases your threat.
I would wait until he started to turn the first time and then hit intim.
On the very rare occasion he would start to turn I would hit intim again.

the new intim works great. Other than the ToD stalwart set, I have no threat gear and no epic stuff, just greensteel. I have never lost the aggro of horoth yet.

I think they did the numbers and I have to say I think they got it right.

[Emili]

More changes need to be made so melees can be more than just flavor builds, hopefully we'll see them sooner rather than later.
Melee tend to be flavour toons due to little spacings for utility gain outside splash, PrE and gear. This is why caster based characters survive from change to change so well... spell switch, enhancement switch a few more items in gear and off and running. Those non-sporting mana scoped in other directions good examples... batman, bowbarians, crit raged barb, exploiter, pure kensie, ravager, now blitz... minor changes in multiple areas tend affect those borrowing from all those areas more, ultimately they age down into medium levels if not off the board after a couple years. Now for example take something most people build for like the skill umd ... the most immportant aspect of it entirely is allows you to 'cast spells.' The fact many melee pursue such when can is indicative of the true utility and self-sufficiency spells provide.

I cannot help but wish turbine would give my melee their tactics back and their weapons of specialty but make them tweakable to use producing effectiveness the way they were ... not pre-u9 but pre-Orchard. ;)

[Xeraphim]

Came here for some numbers to throw on an LFM for a ToD Hard, was wondering what I had to build for a ToD Elite... nothing very helpful. I do see a lot of these folks talking about how much they play though.

What AC NUMBERS do we have to aim for to do a ToD Hard, Elite?

If it's not a solid number, I and other readers will just ignore your post and wonder why your green bar is so big for being no help at all.

I did get an aim for Normal elsewhere, and this thread makes mention of the same range, although without referencing the actual range.

[aristarchus1000]

Came here for some numbers to throw on an LFM for a ToD Hard, was wondering what I had to build for a ToD Elite... nothing very helpful. I do see a lot of these folks talking about how much they play though.

What AC NUMBERS do we have to aim for to do a ToD Hard, Elite?

If it's not a solid number, I and other readers will just ignore your post and wonder why your green bar is so big for being no help at all.

I did get an aim for Normal elsewhere, and this thread makes mention of the same range, although without referencing the actual range.

Did you see reply #2?
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3888347&postcount=2

[Faent]

I'd LOVE to try a 12 melee ToD, I'm absolutely sure we could do it and it'd be a fun change of pace though to be honest i don't think i'd be than hard.

See here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310534

[grodon9999]

See here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310534

The pally I'm growing MIGHT be able to self-hjeal through hard/elite. That's when the fun starts :)