PVP update Idea

[mikeminimac]

So I hear over and over that DDO would be perfect if it had a good PVP system and crafting. I believe that DDo has made huge leaps in crafting, and, if they keep at it, may make a crafting system as deep as both their character development and combat.
Sadly, I don't see any possible advances in PVP.
Some things I have seen that are an argument against why DDO can't do PVP are:
1)it's a questing, party bases MMO, and
2)since everyone is on the same faction, it is hard to set up scenario's for PVP
That got me thinking of a way to have a fun, and maybe one day, deep PVP experience.
For starters, every character is NOT in the same faction. They are all mercenaries. Some do it for power, money, glory, or because it is the right thing to do, but none of them are tied to any arbitrary guidelines as to who they are allied with and not. Humans and Dark elves can party together. The game doesn't restrict players from one another unless the player themselves chooses to.
Which leads me to the next point. The game is a party based, instance questing game. And there is no need to set the players up in a tiny room to beat up one another and call it PVP. That's just dueling.
If Turbine made quests strictly for PVP, then that could solve the problem.
Here's a simple example. House Kunderak has been excavating some ruins recently, and some of their finds include a damning, ancient document that indicate the ancestor's of house Cannith in some evil pact. House cannith sent a strike force, and eliminated the dwarven excavators. Now, in Stormreach, the quest has two different givers, a represenative for Kunderak, and one for Cannith. Each contact gives a different, conflicting set of quest goals. Kunderak asks their party to reclaim the ruins, while Cannith asks them to find the document, find the shrine that protects it, destroy the shrine, then the document. The ruins are crawling with trash mobs of the slaughtered forces, and living miners and warriors of each force. The ruins are destroyed by the force released by the destruction of the magic destruction, so the Cannith crew must get to a safe place before they destroy it.
Kundrak wins, if: They secure 3 points in the ruins, and wipe out the opposing party.
Cannith wins, if: They find the Document, destroy the shrine's guardian, destroy the altar, and take the document to one of 4 different positions to safely destroy the document.
Obviously, there would have to be balancing issues.
If you complete one of these quests, you get XP. However, if you win, you get an optional XP equal to 50% of base XP, and you get to loot a special winners treasure chest, with the loot specifically geared towards PVP (weapons with halfling bane, spell resistances, enemy locators, et c...) and hard to come by gear (FF boots and such), although they would still have a low drop rate.
You could set up a room in house Denieth, kinda like a mercenary guild, that all of these quests are available, via Contracts nailed to the notice boards on the wall. You could even set up something similar to the Skirmish screen in LOTRO to aid in ease of finding parties. There are plenty of conflicting interests in stormreach, and you could use them to your advantage.
If they made Five quests to start, you could make one or two F2P, then release the others in a quest pack, then every few updates, maybe tied to major crafting updates, that releases another 3-4 quest PVP pack. I believe this is a way to keep the feel of DDO while letting me use my awesome character against other awesome characters, and making the experience of PVP actually entertaining.

[DoctorWhofan]

The problem with this is favour.

You lose favour in the Inn league if you choose the ale assoation in LotRO. Why would House D give me favour after fighting AGAINST them? I have seen this in other games. Favour is tied to TP. Bad idea.

Two: we have arena style protect the flag kinda places for PvP.

Three: Giving rewards for PvP (especially xp!) takes away from the PvE aspect. Special loot does the same, unless it was like LotRO: a title and only stuff you can use in PvP. That's acceptable.

THis was more thought out than others and far more interesting, but again, it comes down to wants and needs. Most people who play DDO and have played DDO for years would rather have time spent on new content than fixing PvP.

[mikeminimac]

I should have thought about that, to a degree. Maybe that can be one negative to PVP... no favor (not a loss in favor). And as to the PVE- this is not about reducing PVE at all. That's why I love DDO... the PVP is amazing, and why I want to incorporate a PVE feel to the game.
You are right on too much bonus, tho. The XP should be enough to make it worth it, but not so much that you can level solely on PVP. Maybe a daily XP cap.
And PVP only loot is a great Idea. That makes working hard in PvP worth it while not being a game breaker for people who'd rather not do PvP.
Remember, people said explorers were stupid. I thought so, at too. It gives a nice diversion, however.

[Uska]

Problem making quests just for pvp is a lot of people have zero interest in such and resent any time spent on pvp I am one of those and pvp should give zero reward and zero xp it would be to xploitable to do otherwise

[DoctorWhofan]

I should have thought about that, to a degree. Maybe that can be one negative to PVP... no favor (not a loss in favor). And as to the PVE- this is not about reducing PVE at all. That's why I love DDO... the PVP is amazing, and why I want to incorporate a PVE feel to the game.
You are right on too much bonus, tho. The XP should be enough to make it worth it, but not so much that you can level solely on PVP. Maybe a daily XP cap.
And PVP only loot is a great Idea. That makes working hard in PvP worth it while not being a game breaker for people who'd rather not do PvP.
Remember, people said explorers were stupid. I thought so, at too. It gives a nice diversion, however.


ONLY PvP loot, I am ok with it.

Titles are ok.

xp rewards are a game breaker. Something like LotRO, possible (xp towards title)

[articwarrior]

tl ; dr version plz? I dont like to read walls o text

[mikeminimac]

I don't understand how it is a game breaker. You are still completing a quest. Just against other players. Have the reward reduce over time, until eventually you get none, you just play it because you like it. Maybe the max XP you can get per level is 20 percent, or ten percent.

[Uska]

I don't understand how it is a game breaker. You are still completing a quest. Just against other players. Have the reward reduce over time, until eventually you get none, you just play it because you like it. Maybe the max XP you can get per level is 20 percent, or ten percent.

Its still dev time spent on something most posters dont have an interest in if you read most of the pvp threads most posters dont want dev time spent on pvp notice I didnt say most players as we have zero ways of telling what most players want but we have seen most posters dont want time spent developing pvp that could be spent on pve content that it would seem more players would enjoy

[Pape_27]

I don't understand how it is a game breaker. You are still completing a quest. Just against other players. Have the reward reduce over time, until eventually you get none, you just play it because you like it. Maybe the max XP you can get per level is 20 percent, or ten percent.

How about playing Guildwars or WoW instead instead of changing the basic structure of ddo to suit your wants? They have a well formed PvP system you, would be happy there.

Leave the pvp out of ddo please.

[Lissyl]

So I hear over and over that DDO would be perfect if it had a good PVP system and crafting.

Strangely, I haven't heard this refrain very much AT ALL. Like...from about 2 forum posters at any given time. 'A good PVP system' is not only an oxymoron, it's unachievable. There is no metric for 'balance', and everytime PVP is brought up, balance is less than a second behind it. You aren't going to have a 'good PVP system' when PWS shuts down an opponent in a half second flat, for instance. Old WoW players can tell you about the Three Minute Mage, and it's modern comparison to an Arcane Archer. And if you go ruining this wonderful game by trying Blizzard's endless task of 'balancing', you'll have more ill will than I could ~possible~ begin to describe.

So seriously...pvp isn't happening. It isn't ~going~ to happen, it ~can't~ happen. This game is not made for pvp, the vast majority of players don't want it, and frankly Turbine doesn't want to open that can of worms. For the love of the Host...let it go. :)

[mikeminimac]

Most posters is an unprovable statement. Many people I talk to say they quit DDO because their was no PVP. Many people I play with want PvP. Now, this is NOT all people. I understand why you wouldn't want PvP. Many people do. That's why I said a few quests. There are 267 quests in DDO (I think). Five or so PvP quests plus a few (like 3 out of 12, max) will still leave tremendous amounts of questing for PvE only. Maybe have analogous releases... a PvE pack with a PvP quest of the same theme (but not necessary for completing the chain). A lot of people don't like raids. A lot of people don't like explorers. A lot of people do. I personally can't stand raids. Doesn't mean I don't think DDO shouldn't have 'em, as some other people get the most out of the game from those raids.

[mikeminimac]

Would you read my statement? I'm not wanting the game to go to PvP focus... not at all. Tabletop d and d, some of my most fun times is taking our characters and bashing the **** out of each other. BY balancing, I mean the quests themselves.
I, of course, don't want the game to be like WoW. Otherwise I would play WoW. This is something else to do in an already wonderful game. Like crafting. You don't have to craft to enjoy this game. If you like crafting, it is something else you can do to add enjoyment to this game. That's all I want. Not a shift in focus, but another layer.

[Uska]

Most posters is an unprovable statement. Many people I talk to say they quit DDO because their was no PVP. Many people I play with want PvP. Now, this is NOT all people. I understand why you wouldn't want PvP. Many people do. That's why I said a few quests. There are 267 quests in DDO (I think). Five or so PvP quests plus a few (like 3 out of 12, max) will still leave tremendous amounts of questing for PvE only. Maybe have analogous releases... a PvE pack with a PvP quest of the same theme (but not necessary for completing the chain). A lot of people don't like raids. A lot of people don't like explorers. A lot of people do. I personally can't stand raids. Doesn't mean I don't think DDO shouldn't have 'em, as some other people get the most out of the game from those raids.

No its not look at the pvp threads and most people posting in them are againt it so its a fact period

[Uska]

Would you read my statement? I'm not wanting the game to go to PvP focus... not at all. Tabletop d and d, some of my most fun times is taking our characters and bashing the **** out of each other. BY balancing, I mean the quests themselves.
I, of course, don't want the game to be like WoW. Otherwise I would play WoW. This is something else to do in an already wonderful game. Like crafting. You don't have to craft to enjoy this game. If you like crafting, it is something else you can do to add enjoyment to this game. That's all I want. Not a shift in focus, but another layer.

Our pnp games disallow pvp and player conflict it creates to many problems and bad feelings face a fact ddo and dnd arent really meant for pvp

[Lissyl]

Would you read my statement? I'm not wanting the game to go to PvP focus... not at all. Tabletop d and d, some of my most fun times is taking our characters and bashing the **** out of each other. BY balancing, I mean the quests themselves.
I, of course, don't want the game to be like WoW. Otherwise I would play WoW. This is something else to do in an already wonderful game. Like crafting. You don't have to craft to enjoy this game. If you like crafting, it is something else you can do to add enjoyment to this game. That's all I want. Not a shift in focus, but another layer.

1. If these people all left because 'there was no pvp', then they would have left anyway with a mere '5 quests of pvp'.
2. Your group seemed to miss most of the reasons to play D&D. Just a stab in the dark here...but you didn't start with 1st or 2nd edition, did you?

[Pape_27]

Would you read my statement?

I would, if you would edit it to make it legible.

[mikeminimac]

Second edition, actually, and I loved the Oriental Adventers source book (played meself a LOT of kensai). Some of these people left because there wasn't Pvp, but many left because there was no PvP at all. many of them, like me, just wanted another thing to do, sit down and test my charecter against others in a scenario that wasn't the duel they have now. I love DDO because of the planning and on your feet thinking you have to do in a quest. Playing a quest against other humans (not just run at each other and kill them) would be tremendous fun, because they would never always react in the same way. It is a great way to complement the best feature of DDO.

[Doomcrew]

I don't understand how it is a game breaker. You are still completing a quest. Just against other players. Have the reward reduce over time, until eventually you get none, you just play it because you like it. Maybe the max XP you can get per level is 20 percent, or ten percent.

Game breaker: Me and my side against you and your side.

1st round, you lay down, we "win" a bundle of xp in 2 minutes.

2nd round, we lay down and you "win" ....

3rd/4th/5th6th ....... until 60 minutes later the quest has run out of xp.

what next, we all grab an alt ......

Can fathom any way this could work without being exploited.

[mikeminimac]

Doom, that is a really good point. A really good point. I would do PvP even if there wasn't any XP, just like I run skirmishes in LOTRO all the time for nil XP.

Maybe have a PvP only "XP", like crafting has it's own. you could cash it in for PvP only rewards.. so those who like PvP gain this from the game, those who don't never have to bother with it.

[Uska]

Second edition, actually, and I loved the Oriental Adventers source book (played meself a LOT of kensai). Some of these people left because there wasn't Pvp, but many left because there was no PvP at all. many of them, like me, just wanted another thing to do, sit down and test my charecter against others in a scenario that wasn't the duel they have now. I love DDO because of the planning and on your feet thinking you have to do in a quest. Playing a quest against other humans (not just run at each other and kill them) would be tremendous fun, because they would never always react in the same way. It is a great way to complement the best feature of DDO.

You cant say it would be tremendous fun since most in this thread alone have already said they dont want it or find it exploitable you would find it tremendous fun me I would resent the time spent developoing something I would find a waste of time and then we wouild have to put up with the idiots who would want to brag how great they are destroying people in these quests so once again a BIG NO THANK YOU and there is pvp for you to test your character against just do the capture the flag or whatever and you wont people interfering

[mikeminimac]

I would also like to say I wrote this after long and careful consideration. SOme of you also replied with consideration... thank you. Some of you bashed me because... you didn't like the idea? Okay. I get that. Tell me why, not insinuate I am an idiot. I never insulted you, although you did to me, and this was an idea I thought would be fun. If this quest was up and running, you wouldn't try it once to see if you had fun? It could be fun. I don't know, as I *am not a develper, nor do I entertain ideas someone from Turbine will see it and make it reality* I was just having fun, and I thought this idea was interesting. I tell people to play all the time because of its great community... thanks for proving to me that there are people as immature as the players on WoW.

If you have something constructive to say (like actually telling me what you like and don't like, what I should change, what can't work [like Doom did] and why) please do. I rather not get insulted because I think this game has a beautiful play style and was having fun messing with it in my head.

[Uska]

I would also like to say I wrote this after long and careful consideration. SOme of you also replied with consideration... thank you. Some of you bashed me because... you didn't like the idea? Okay. I get that. Tell me why, not insinuate I am an idiot. I never insulted you, although you did to me, and this was an idea I thought would be fun. If this quest was up and running, you wouldn't try it once to see if you had fun? It could be fun. I don't know, as I *am not a develper, nor do I entertain ideas someone from Turbine will see it and make it reality* I was just having fun, and I thought this idea was interesting. I tell people to play all the time because of its great community... thanks for proving to me that there are people as immature as the players on WoW.

If you have something constructive to say (like actually telling me what you like and don't like, what I should change, what can't work [like Doom did] and why) please do. I rather not get insulted because I think this game has a beautiful play style and was having fun messing with it in my head.

I fail to see where anyone insulted you or bashed you disagreeing with you isnt insulting you or bashing you and if you feel that way I feel sorry for you yes some people said they dont read walls of text thats not insulting they were telling you that they didnt like your posting style and you need to change if you wanted them to read it.

[mikeminimac]

most of you seemed to talk wayyyyy down to me... thank you Drwhofan and Doom for not. Many of you keep saying how many people don't want PvP in DDO, and I keep saying this is undoubtably true. Most of the people I play with and ask this too want it... because we tend to surround ourselves with people like minded. I don't think DDO will ever have real PvP, this is all fantasy. Have fun with it. Look up posts on Explorers, Epic quests, and crafting, and so many of them have a huge amount of bashers until after the updates were made. Just saying, no need to talk down to me like I am an idiot. If you don't like it, move on. If you think it was a good attempt, or want to point out something specific and not a sweeping statement (even if it is a disagreement) go ahead.

[DoctorWhofan]

I would also like to say I wrote this after long and careful consideration. SOme of you also replied with consideration... thank you. Some of you bashed me because... you didn't like the idea? Okay. I get that. Tell me why, not insinuate I am an idiot. I never insulted you, although you did to me, and this was an idea I thought would be fun. If this quest was up and running, you wouldn't try it once to see if you had fun? It could be fun. I don't know, as I *am not a develper, nor do I entertain ideas someone from Turbine will see it and make it reality* I was just having fun, and I thought this idea was interesting. I tell people to play all the time because of its great community... thanks for proving to me that there are people as immature as the players on WoW.

If you have something constructive to say (like actually telling me what you like and don't like, what I should change, what can't work [like Doom did] and why) please do. I rather not get insulted because I think this game has a beautiful play style and was having fun messing with it in my head.

They bash you because you are NOT the first person nor will you be the last person to suggest stuff. I was polite because you posed an interesting idea, but at the end, I side with the non-pvpers. Yes, I have not set foot in Ettenmoors, either.

What it comes down to it, PvP would be a waste of resources in part of designing and building new "quests" for it. Time taking away from PvE. PvP DOES HURT PvE. Bottom line. THis game was established without PvP, while it drove people away, it brought people who do not want PvP. Does it make it a niche game? Yes. THere is an audience that doesn't want PvP, and here it is.

As for the Wants and want nots, your "Lots of people said.." is less provable that the hundreds and hundreds of posts/threads/etc. written against PvP. We have valid proof, you have hearsay. Sorry. Now if you can point to the numbers...

All in all, sorry, this isn't a PvP game. In fact, I can say with great certainty that PvP, active REAL PvP, would destroy the game. I think Turbine knows that too.

[mikeminimac]

You may be right, Drwhofan and I thank you for actually replying. I just had an interesting idea. That's all. PvP may destroy the game, or not.
That being said, and I keep reaffirming this, it is ONLY am idea. And obviously if people keep posting things about it, more people want it than you seem to indicate.
Yes, I am going to keep playing regardless.
No, i don't think I'm brilliant.
I just wanted to spark discussion. The same reason people write fan fic. Or discuss shows online. Because it enhances the experience.

[DoctorWhofan]

You may be right, Drwhofan and I thank you for actually replying. I just had an interesting idea. That's all. PvP may destroy the game, or not.
That being said, and I keep reaffirming this, it is ONLY am idea. And obviously if people keep posting things about it, more people want it than you seem to indicate.
Yes, I am going to keep playing regardless.
No, i don't think I'm brilliant.
I just wanted to spark discussion. The same reason people write fan fic. Or discuss shows online. Because it enhances the experience.

Hey, you had to try. That's ok. At least you did listen, even to the grumpy people.

:p

Don't stop posting either. fresh faces on the forums are nice.

[Aashrym]

Real game reward for PvP are bad to start with. Adding them for opposing teams opens up exploitation potential as both teams take turns throwing the competition. XP and items are pretty shaky. Guild favor maybe but it still opens up the possibility for exploitation. Bragging rights is where the benefits should be if the old leader board worked.

I would quit if I had to participate in PvP to go through some quests for favor or rewards, just to be clear, so not a big fan of that at all, but map mods for capture the flag might not be bad for players willing to pay for them.

It's an overall not signed but I thought I would provide at least something constructive. That and I don't to spend dev time on PvP anyway.

[Gremmlynn]

The way this game is designed simply doesn't lend itself to meaningful PvP. Frankly MMOs in general don't as attaching player skill to advancement in such a direct manner just leads to those who have the skill advancing and those who don't leaving due to never being able to advance. Simply put, it turns those who aren't amongst the very best into mobs for those who are in that ratified company to grind...for as long as it takes those getting ground to figure out that being ground makes the game unsatisfying.

[Rogann]

That's cool and all but there's still a big balance issue... To win all u need is a party of casters, melees would get pwned.

[Beeeeeaner]

No its not look at the pvp threads and most people posting in them are against it so its a fact period

Then why are they bothering posting in the pvp threads in the first place if they dont even pvp? Why even have a section dedicated to it if they do not want to at least hear some ideas? It is so frustrating to see nothing get done because the people that do not even spend time there or see whats wrong and unbalanced in there, come here and complain about interference with pve. When clearly that is not the case because there is already some differnces in coding with what you can do in the pvp and pve arenas. Btw undead necros should be owned by lay of hands from paladins and not just make the turn disappear in an "attack" in that weird hard target bug. Your just undead form not blade, with all the strengths and none of the weaknesses.

[likuei]

PLEASE!!!!!! No additional work on PvP!!!!!!

If you are so interested in it, please play another game.