First TR Paladin/Monk TWF

[CanuckWisdom]

Hello all, sorry for the length

So I'm planning my first TR. Im coming from a sword and shield pal-rogue build who's biggest strength is survivability, and my goal for this life is to create an equally enjoyable, more damage oriented build (TWF) that can maintain the survivability (ac/saves) of my past life.

I'd like to hear input from ya'll, but Im not looking to change my build significantly, just polish it up if need be. Some choices are flavor. For example, I'm not interested in switching away from bastard swords.

What I would like to hear is; mistakes in basic mechanics (i.e. its not possible to take x before y), reorganizing feats (perhaps power attack earlier, or improved crit and ITWF reversed etc), different skill layouts (I think my UMD will top around 25 before buffs), enhancement reorganizing suggestions etc.

I think in the build below I have Force of personality. To replace it, I cannot quite decide, but am considering:
Shield Mastery (have this in my current life, I think its very nice, but with TWF most of the time it will be less useful).

Weapon Focus, I would prefer not to get this as it seems very minimal bonus for a feat, but my unbuffed attack bonus at 20 will be 26-28 (TWF/PA) and I am not sure if that will be too low for elite/epic high lvl content.

Maximize, havn't tried this out before, but between paladin past life, HElf healing amp, 20% from an item (either Leviks bracers or slotting it onto my DT armor) and the ship buff it might be worth while. Problems are I dont have devotion enhancements and I dont think I will want to squeeze anything else out. I most often play in groups, but I don't want to waste time getting back to 20 so I plan on soloing more often to get this character up. Is maximize better than empower healing for a paladin? I have a conc-opp and about 600 SP at 20 right now.

Any other suggestions for this feat slot? (edit) Leaning heavy towards maximize now that I've tried it out on other characters and done the math for self heals with expected healing amp.

My stat layout is based on the gear I have now or intend to have before TRing.

I took the elf faith line so I could save some action points on the rez enhancement (which I love in my current life, but feelin the squeeze on AP). Between this and a GS rez clicky, I think I can still back up resurrect sufficiently.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Merelye 2nd life monk2 Helf
Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Female
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 338
Spell Points: 270
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 21
Will: 23

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22 22
Dexterity 15 17 17
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 10 12 12
Wisdom 8 10 10
Charisma 15 18 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 8
Bluff 2 5
Concentration 2 10
Diplomacy 2 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 6
Heal -1 1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 2 28
Jump 7 11
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 6
Tumble 6 7
Use Magic Device 4 16

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Undying Call
Enhancement: Follower of the Undying Court
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III




With current/expected items, should look something like:

Stats:
Str-28 (9) (likely 30 when ToD rings come)
Dex-23 (6)
Con-22 (6) (likely 24 when ToD rings come)
Int-12 (1)
Wis-16 (3)
Cha-26 (8)

Attack Bonus:
Unbuffed:
-28
w/ Self-Buffs: (Long term/Short)
29 / 32

Hit Points:
498
518 self buffed
As well as two temporary hit point proc items

SP:
~600

AC: Unbuffed
50 TWF
58 With shield

Saves:
38/32/29

42/36/33 with epic Crystal Cove shield equipped.


Thanks for going through my long post, I have lots of thoughts, so I appreciate any constructive input. I have a few more questions though:

Monk animal path, I have chosen the monkey one for the 2 to resists.... does this stack with everything? Perhaps I should take hound for the + to hit to help mitigate my TWF penalties?

Half elf social skills.... are these the same as the regular skills but on a different cooldown timer?

ToD KotC ring... healing amp, exceptional strength, constitution or charisma?

Power attack at 18? Thats when I took it on my current life, I would like it earlier this time around but getting the others early seem rather important too, and not having PA while leveling would help keep my attack bonus up... thoughts?

I decided on 10 Int, instead of 16 dex to start. Will leave me with odd dex, but really its only -1 reflex (and -1 AC in outfit) vs. (23) skill points. I still can't get combat expertise, but I think this is the right move.



Is my UMD at 25ish gonna be useful enough? And I can only get +3 from item swapping a ML 20 trinket. Can still do GH and prayer on top of this.

Im planning Knight of the chalice, but taking Hunter of the Dead until around lvl 13 seems like a good idea?


Anyways, Im quite pumped for this, between the extra feats, saves (monk splash superior to rogue splash for will), stat points (coming from 28pt) and half elf versatility (still have sneak dmg, healing amp and cheaper charisma enhancements) Im very pleased with how this looks; loosing very little from my past life and gaining a lot.

/ramble

Comments?

[Yoshikata]

UMD 28 is okay enough to throw down raise dead scrolls most the time so that's alright. I would suggest getting rid of force personality or at the very least switching it and power attack around. I don't have it on my Paladin and I don't really fail will saves short of 1's obviously. I would suggest another Toughness if that HP you have there is counted with a greensteel, if not that's not too bad for HP, Shield Mastery 10% damage off is quite nice, perhaps UMD skill focus, that might let you no fail raise dead scrolls with proper equipment. Probably won't ever get heal scrolls at no fail though. You also may want to consider the turtle path for extra HP. Madstones are fine just buff before putting them on and go to town, I use mine in raids and a few other situations.
KoTC is solid damage dealing PrC, nothing wrong with it.


I have very similar build to this planned out but mine uses the monk levels for wisdom to AC otherwise it's very similar.


edit: Another thing is when you post stuff, post your calculations with the total number because sometimes people forget things. Everytime I make a build I send it to my friends to make sure I didn't forget anything important in my calculations. Also just remembered Divine Sacrifice 3 is level 19 Paladin. >.>;

[CanuckWisdom]

Yea, I didnt post the calculations because of the length of my OP.

Good to know about UMD, I suppose swapping one item in for the +3 is not a big deal either if its after a fight to rez etc. And SF:UMD is a good idea I hadnt considered for the extra feat.

Regarding shield mastery, perhaps Ill wait till Im actually playing the build and see how often I switch to shield. Switching PA and FoP/whatever is a good plan.

Yes those HP are including GS HP items. Another toughness might be good, but after the first opens enhancements I feel like 22 extra HP might not be as good as other possible feats.

And just so its clear, do I understand correctly that Divine sacrifice and smite affect both weapons when used? Is this for sure (assuming offhand proc)?


Gimme a min and Ill post some calculations.

[FrozenNova]

Feels like I'm missing something here - you take 2 monk, then.. have higher ac with a shield / intend to use heavy armor / don't use spare feats to add extra features.

Take a look at the scion in my sig - it attempts to take full advantage of the /2 splash to ensure the loss of the capstone is worthwhile. Notably, the AC/hp/umd breakdowns and the bit on self healing.
Admittedly it's human for combat expertise, though you can forget AC and go helf-rogue if you prefer for an otherwise similar effect.

Is bastard sword personal preference/equipment convenience? Without THF it doesn't add anything to S&B.

Yes, madstone prevents spellcasting. I still use it on occasion, but remove it once its duration would surpass zeal and favor.



Spellpoints won't be a non-issue until you get the torc. At which point you are laughing.

[CanuckWisdom]

Accuracy check appreciated.

Saves: (seems I did have this a bit off in OP)
-Base from Pally/Monk (11/6/6 and 3/3/3)
--14/9/9
-With ( +6 item modified) stats: +6 Con, +6dex, +3wis
--20/15/12
-With +8 Charisma Bonus (w items)
--29/23/20
-With Aura/enhancements (+4)
--33/27/24
-With +5 resist item
--38/32/29

Hit Points:
Class- 196 (18/2)
Heroic Durability- 20
Constitution- 120
Toughness feat- 22
Toughness Enhancements- 40
Draconic Vitality- 10
Crystal Cove Trinket- 5
GS items- 45
Superior False Life from Epic Cavalry Plate- 40
=498 Unbuffed

Armor Class:
Base- 10
Armor w/ dex- 19 (epic Cavalry plate)
Aura of good/enhancements- 3
Offhand GS sword- 4 (insight)
Protection- 5
Natural Armor- 5 (Crystal Cove Helm)
ChaosGaurd (bracers have +2 dodge, boots don't) - 2
Alchemical Shield and armor dodge bonus - 2
=50
IF Shield- 8
=58

Possibilities:
Defensive fighting
=60
(would like to get chattering ring, but no immediate plans, could fit onto build by removing feather fall/+balance ring)
=61/63


Spell Points:
Level ups and Wisdom- 303
Wizardy VI- 150
Energy of the Templar- 40
=493
-Next Green Steel will add 50-150
Concordant Opposition; possible SP regen

Attack Bonus:
-Base 19 from levels (-1 from monk lvls)
-(w/ Stats; Str mod of 9)
--28
-(w/ feats, -2 dual weilding, -5 Power Attack):
--21 (Both hands)
-(w/ +Items, +5 weapon)
--26/26
-(w/ self buffs, long [short]; Bless 1 [Divine Favor 3, Prayer 1])
--27 [31]

[CanuckWisdom]

Feels like I'm missing something here - you take 2 monk, then.. have higher ac with a shield / intend to use heavy armor / don't use spare feats to add extra features.

Take a look at the scion in my sig - it attempts to take full advantage of the /2 splash to ensure the loss of the capstone is worthwhile. Notably, the AC/hp/umd breakdowns and the bit on self healing.
Admittedly it's human for combat expertise, though you can forget AC and go helf-rogue if you prefer for an otherwise similar effect.


bastard sword is personal preference/past life, and you could say monk is too. I am pretty 'flavor' oriented.

I know its somewhat 'wasteful' to not use evasion, but for the bonus feats its between fighter or monk, and the monk benefits my saves more. Thats my logic, plus evasion is available, if I chose to switch it up. And shield use is not the main plan, I just included it in the build for comparison to my past life and to show potential ac.

The bonus feats are there because I want to include oversized/TWF chain/PA/Crit/Bsword/Toughness, which puts it at 8 (vs. 7 without bonus) and the one extra

Thank you for Madstone/SP response.

I will look at your link.

[FrozenNova]

If you're not actually after any of the features monk provides, you can achieve the above simply by going human, without losing the excellent paladin capstone. None of the extra feats you look at in OP are worth losing capstone.

Also, your breakdowns -
Cove stalwart trinket is 10 hp, not 5 - description is incorrect

With regards to your ac, see what you can reach using typical buffs - it's that number that matters.
However, it's still looking like you won't end up with an ac value that's actually noticible in any non-trivial content.

[CanuckWisdom]

To be honest, Im simply not interested in going Human, but if I did to get the bonus feat/capstone without multiclassing, I wouldnt have sneak dmg, and saves would be lower.

And what, in your opinion is the target for AC?

For non-epic high lvl content?

For epic?

[FrozenNova]

Mid 80's is the benchmark to justify a character aiming for tanking ac.
If you plan on using a shield while tanking, you are also likely to need adequate intimidate.
In epic, ac versus bosses is practically impossible for conventional builds, and lies more in the theoretical.

[CanuckWisdom]

Okay so I still havnt TR'd because Im chasing a couple items still (3 I think, 2x ToD rings and a rune or two for DT), but Im working on dragontouched vestments to swap in for evasion use. The item enchantments still wont be on par with the Epic Calvary plate, but it will be a good item to use for evasion. I can easily swap between the two depending on the quest/battle at hand.

[CanuckWisdom]

Im taking another look at my feat selection order too. I've swapped Oversized TWF from lvl 1 to level 6 so that if I get to 20 and feel like I can swap out of OTWF for shield mastery or another feat, more options will be available at lvl 6 for swapping than monk lvl 1.

I've also swapped GTWF with maximize to take advantage of strong self healing earlier in the leveling process.

So right now my order is:

1: Toughness, TWF (could still swap PA with toughness)
3: Bastard Sword.
6: OTWF
8: Power Attack
9: ITWF
12: Imp.Crit Slash
15: Maximize
18: GTWF

[eulogy098]

I know you said you like bastard swords but..... they are really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really bad for paladins.

Divine Sacrifice is completely reliant on a wide crit range, and Exalted smite is reliant on full critical profile. Bastard swords have the worst crit profile.

Truly, Scimitars would be drastically more damage output and not cost you a feat. Scimitars, for paladins, are very competitive with even Khopesh due the the larger benefit to Divine Sacrifice on wide crit ranges.

I know you didn't want to hear it, but for the sake of cringing at the thought of an experienced player (which is sort-of what TRs are representing) using a bastard sword makes me cry a little on the inside.

----

You don't need force of personality. Your saves will be spectacular as a paladin, you will not be failing saves. Dont blow a feat like that. trust me.

----


you will definitely want power attack sooner. I'd take it at 3 and either use Carnifex until ITWF or use a light-offhand (Scimitar + Kukri works very well) until you no longer miss.

---

dump int and put another point in CHA so you can at least get Divine Might 3 without wasting a level up point that will be needed in strength. (requires only level 15 paladin... not 19 as someone said.... trust me its 15)

having an odd cha, unless you have a +3 tome?, is silly... Divine Might is the large of the reason for CHA and it's only effected at even numbers. Divine Might 3 is worth much more then skill points. And losing even a single point of strength hurts in the end. Paladins don't have very good attack bonus compared to fighters and barbs, you need all you can get especially considering your starting -2 from max as it is.

---



Seriously consider Extend instead of Bastard Swords. You're dps will be higher and you will have more flexibility with your short term buffs making it easier/viable to use items such as Madstone boots... which is not reasonable without Extend.


I recommend feat order--

1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Power Attack (use a Two Handed weapon such as Carnifex or if you insist on TWF for flavor at low levels, light offhand)
6: Extend
9: Improved Critical: Slashing
12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (now swap to your Greensteels)
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18: Toughness

[CanuckWisdom]

Sorry to make you cry... Paladins should use straight edged blades. Ive got bastard swords, I like them, and its a game, so thats whats important to me. If I do decide to switch for better damage, I would keep exotic and go Khopesh when I got back up to shroud levels.

I'm sure you can run the numbers and prove to me whats best (Ive done some myself), but keep in mind that bastard swords, especially greensteel, have superior base damage.

Anyways. Im not taking force of personality, its likely maximize.

Ill still have divine might 3. Its divine might four that's level 20, and divine sacrifice 3 thats 19. Not keen on dropping down skill points, as it is I'll only have UMD and Intimidate.

I hadnt thought of extend allowing use of madstone, thats a good idea. I could switch out OTWF for that if I felt comfortable with it at 20.

Im not entirely sure yet where I'll take power attack. Looks like 1 or 8 right now, unless I didnt take TWF until a higher lvl.

[lord_of_rage]

Sorry to make you cry... Paladins should use straight edged blades. Ive got bastard swords, I like them, and its a game, so thats whats important to me. If I do decide to switch for better damage, I would keep exotic and go Khopesh when I got back up to shroud levels.

I'm sure you can run the numbers and prove to me whats best (Ive done some myself), but keep in mind that bastard swords, especially greensteel, have superior base damage.

Anyways. Im not taking force of personality, its likely maximize.

Ill still have divine might 3. Its divine might four that's level 20, and divine sacrifice 3 thats 19. Not keen on dropping down skill points, as it is I'll only have UMD and Intimidate.

I hadnt thought of extend allowing use of madstone, thats a good idea. I could switch out OTWF for that if I felt comfortable with it at 20.

Im not entirely sure yet where I'll take power attack. Looks like 1 or 8 right now, unless I didnt take TWF until a higher lvl.

It really doesnt matter if gs bastard swords have a higher base damage. Kopeshes and Scimitars still do much more damage period. Nevermind in the hands of a paladin. Paladins do alot of their damage on crits. Scimitars crit more. Kopeshes crit harder. If you have run the numbers you would know kopeshes and scimitars do more damage. But I understand you like the flavor of bastard sword. Just beware of the looks and questions.