Defender of siberys or Stalwart Defender?

[EssenceofEvil]

I'm having fun with my lvl 10 rogue.. but I wanted to try a tank kind of character. I can't decide on whether I want to go fighter for the SD or Paladin for DoS. Now this will be her first life so no fancy schmancy tomes unless my rogue finds one eventually. So everything will be all natural for awhile.

I just say this in case somebody comes in with the advice "well with such n such a tome you can make a pretty good.."

I don't think the shields active DR when blocking stops elemental/force damage,.... so I'm sort of leaning towards DoS since they will have better saves and possible better ac with the paladins aura of good.

can someone help me decide?

[SpiritBoy]

My suggestion? Don't.
AC tanking requires a lot of grind, careful planning and knowledge of the game. Turtle tanking is generally frowned upon even worse than TWF AC, because of the drop in DPS. Wait until you have a capped toon and can support an AC tank. Otherwise, just do yourself (and others) a favor and don't do it.

[NeutronStar]

I'm actually enjoying my DoS. Sure there's a DPS drop (a pretty big drop actually but it's not enough so as to be a totally ineffective dsamage-dealer) but I have DPS toons. I wanted to do something different and a DoS intimitank is an enjoyable change of pace.

[Battlehawke]

Currently, if you are looking to tank, the most desired is probably a HATE tank with healing amp. You can do this through a lot of different class builds. Ultimately it sounds like you want a DOS Hate/Intim tank. Even if your intim isn't gear uber yet, it still adds to your hate (I think 100% when wearing a shield & 50% when not, even on intim fails). Search the Melee Forums for a Dos Hate Tank that you like and roll with that.... Pallies have extra Hate vs most mobs, and have enhancements that add to that. There are also a few races that can add enhancements to hate like WF, but if you do NOT have the gear or resources to tweak a Pally DOS WF out, then I would go Dwarf, Human or Horc. Good luck and have fun....

[mournbladereigns]

I have a 32pt half-elf 12ftr/6pal/2rog SDII intimitank build, with a +2 supreme tome. He has UMD, Shield Mastery/Improved Shield bash, CE for tanking ability. He is THF with bastard swords for Sword & Board, greater Slash specialization, PA, IC with Falchion/GA for pure DPSing. 14 starting cha for DMI, plus divine fav, and divine sac for extra dmg. W/force of personality and pal save bonus, he has solid saves across the board, and high intim score.

Intimi-hate tanking thanks to divine righteous & SDII he has +133% threat, with +233% for 12 seconds while sword & board intimi-tanking with max'd Intimidate.

He won't be able to reach high enough AC to matter for amrath/epics, but with shield dmg res, heal amp and solid HP's he'll be survivable, and will be able hold aggro with solid DPS & mass threat gen. I have epic cavalary plate, LIght & Darkness and some other good gear for him.

Its a serviceable build.

that said, You'll really want 32pt build and tomes to pull off a build like the above.

Otherwise, try a human 18pal/2ftr build, Bastard sword(Or DAxe) S&B with full THF line and falchion for dpsing (that way you can dump dex). You'll have solid smites & Divine sac, decent saves, and with Divine righteous, can do some effective hate tanking. Take shield mastery and with tower shield you'll have 20% Dmg resistance off top of incomging dmg. Throw in heal amp, and solid saves and you'll do ok. You'll still have solid burst DPS with falchion and smites. So will be serviceable end-game even when note hate-tanking.

[catpower]

Hi Mournbladereigns,

Your post reminded me of a question I have had about bastard swords and dwarven axes. If you have a second, I would appreciate your insight.

1) Do you get the same damage from STR and Power Attack while wielding a bastard sword and shield as you would from a regular two hander like a falchion? Ie. do you get the +10 for PA and double STR bonus?

Or do you only get glancing blows, and not the other benefits of THF?

Thanks in advance!

[Enoach]

Hi Mournbladereigns,

Your post reminded me of a question I have had about bastard swords and dwarven axes. If you have a second, I would appreciate your insight.

1) Do you get the same damage from STR and Power Attack while wielding a bastard sword and shield as you would from a regular two hander like a falchion? Ie. do you get the +10 for PA and double STR bonus?

Or do you only get glancing blows, and not the other benefits of THF?

Thanks in advance!

The answer is no.

The reason: only THW gain the double bonus to PA and 1.5x str bonus.

Now if Turbine decides to implement The Dwarven Axe and Bastard Swords as they were intended you would be able to use them either single or double handed - then the benefit of taking these exotic weapon feats would be fewer weapons to lug around.

[Enoach]

SD or DoS - That is the question.

Each bring to the table different aspects of tanking.


Now to make a point: Not all SD's and DoS's are AC tanks... These lines do benefit AC tanks more but both PrE's bring other options.

Such As:

Stances that Raise Str/Con/Hate Generation
DoS - Stance that Boost Resistance to Damage
DoS - No SP casts of Shield of Faith/Protection From Evil - Both Mass
DoS - Additional AC Bonus to Aura that benefits all party members within reach


Getting your AC to its highest point is an adventure (that at times will feel like a grind). Knowing when AC matters and when to pick up the Big Weapon and swing is the most important lesson to be learned by any Tank. Next is learning how to use intimidate, closely followed by how to midigate incoming damage - cause your going to get hit.

Personally I'm a DoS fan, but I have excepted the fact that I have access to fewer feats then a SD might have. But a paladin is a tricky/clicky class to play, but the benefits can be very rewarding.

[Rogann]

Board and sword builds fail hard, so just make a hate tank

[theboatman]

You can make a perfectly good hate tank that also has decent heal amp/intimidate/armor class.

The hard part is getting folks you play with to yield to you while learning the ins and outs of the class...A well build/geared/played defender saves a tremendous amount of resources, in the right situation.

The biggest thing I can stress with either class is that you have a viable dps spec built into the character; having support to respec your enhancements to go Kensai/Kotc can be wonderful for when your gear cant quite cut it, the situation calls for a different type of force, or when you just get bored of tanking. You can always go back to defender three days later.

[Rogann]

You can make a perfectly good hate tank that also has decent heal amp/intimidate/armor class.

The hard part is getting folks you play with to yield to you while learning the ins and outs of the class...A well build/geared/played defender saves a tremendous amount of resources, in the right situation.

The biggest thing I can stress with either class is that you have a viable dps spec built into the character; having support to respec your enhancements to go Kensai/Kotc can be wonderful for when your gear cant quite cut it, the situation calls for a different type of force, or when you just get bored of tanking. You can always go back to defender three days later.

Even with gear, board and sword fails due to the intim nerd

[Ralmeth]

Board and sword builds fail hard, so just make a hate tank
I strongly disagree, but that could just be your wording...S&B only intimitanks fail hard because of the change to intimidate, but a properly built S&B hate tank can work very well if you give yourself a good DPS mode to be in for when S&B isn't required. S&B for hate tanking named monsters, DPS mode for most of the other times.

To the Op,
What resources do you have available? Do you have 32 point characters and are willing to buy/eat some tomes? If you only have a 28 point character then I would recommend Fighter. I do not recommend a 28 point Paladin tank because a DoS requires so many stats to work well.

[NeutronStar]

Board and sword builds fail hard, so just make a hate tank


Even with gear, board and sword fails due to the intim nerd

No

[grodon9999]

AC tanking requires a lot of grind, careful planning and knowledge of the game . . .

EVERYTHING worth a **** in this game requires grind, careful planning, and knowledge of the game. This is really a cop-out.

[joaofalcao]

My suggestion? Don't.
AC tanking requires a lot of grind, careful planning and knowledge of the game. Turtle tanking is generally frowned upon even worse than TWF AC, because of the drop in DPS. Wait until you have a capped toon and can support an AC tank. Otherwise, just do yourself (and others) a favor and don't do it.

You should listen to this guy. Tanking is grindfull. Cap a toon first and think again.


Theres no such a thing as "all natural". You can surely make one, but you very likely wont have fun having a low DPS, low AC tank.


But if you insist on the idea, my suggestion is the paladin. Hes inferior to the fighter overall due to lack of feats and some traits, but can reach a sustainable lvl of play with less grind. (lvl 18 healling stance, free AC aura, etc)

[joaofalcao]

Even with gear, board and sword fails due to the intim nerd

Intimi nerd? Is that a new 5th grade offense? Is that what the cool kids are saying?

AHHHHHHHHH, intimidate NERF! lol took me some time to realize what youre saying.


Well, I got a sword and board intimitank. He got hit preetty bad due to the U9 Intimidate changes, but after some changes(no TR yet), He still can do his job.


I get, while pugging, some funny pants barbarian trying to steal agro from me to show the girls how big is their e-peen. Some of them succed with hate gear on(they wont after my TR), but seriously, what a spongbob bluebarpants they are.


No AC tank is a mana sponge. He drinks loads of sp and isnt lag safe. I am getting fond of watching no AC tanks die on the orthon lag wave that comes before sully´s death on VOD. If I dont have my high AC, high intimin char on the raid on a times like these, tsc tsc tsc..

Personally, I dont play the cleric when a low AC char is tanking. Its no fun spending pots just because the barbarian wanna brag its e-peen.

[coolpenguin410]

Board and sword builds fail hard, so just make a hate tank

Fail.

S&B builds work when played correctly. That means putting away the shield when high AC doesn't matter or when better DPS is more important. Not knowing that or not being able to do that is the result of a bad player and has nothing to do with the build.

@OP: I have to disagree with those saying to go hate instead of intim. Intim is a great tool to use to gain and hold aggro. Some +threat item will always be neccessary due to the changes to intim in U9, but intim is still very, very powerful for a tank.

[Creeper]

can someone help me decide?

I'd go with Paladin.

[Tsuarok]

Currently, if you are looking to tank, the most desired is probably a HATE tank with healing amp. You can do this through a lot of different class builds. Ultimately it sounds like you want a DOS Hate/Intim tank. Even if your intim isn't gear uber yet, it still adds to your hate (I think 100% when wearing a shield & 50% when not, even on intim fails). Search the Melee Forums for a Dos Hate Tank that you like and roll with that.... Pallies have extra Hate vs most mobs, and have enhancements that add to that. There are also a few races that can add enhancements to hate like WF, but if you do NOT have the gear or resources to tweak a Pally DOS WF out, then I would go Dwarf, Human or Horc. Good luck and have fun.... (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Skill:Intimidate)

I don't think the hate bonus from intimidate works if the intimidate fails.

[sephiroth1084]

Do you have 32 pt. builds available? If so, I'd go with paladin. If you have drow I'd think about paladin.

If you have neither, or don't want to play a drow (not suggesting that it's even a good choice necessarily for this kind of character), I'd go fighter.

Simply put, paladins (currently) make better hate tanks, especially for players with less gear thanks to big boosts like Divine Righteousness and high burst damage, but are very rough on build points.

If you solo or short man a lot, I'd go paladin.

[Aerendil]

Regarding hate tanks, be sure you grab Intimidate as well (because, honestly, there's no reason NOT to have it). I've seen numerous hate tanks these days who have 0 Intimidate and rely purely on dps and +threat gear to hold aggro, and this can create a real problem in raids!

First of all, the raid has to sit there for a minute or so while you build up enough hate/aggro so everyone else can attack freely; and secondly, if you happen to die (which happens - everyone rolls a 1 on a Disintegrate at an inopportune moment. Nothing we can do about that), then the raid can go south VERY quickly. Tank dead; chances are the Rogues who were sitting at #2 for aggro will be next to follow; and possibly the healer after that. Suddenly you have 4+ people slaughtered, and the raid struggling to prevent a wipe.

With Intimidate, however, that tank can quickly re-establish aggro after being raised, and you're golden.

So my point is, whether you go AC build (generally S&B) or not, be sure to pick up Intimidate.

But for the record, there's no reason a S&B build can't whip out a 2h weapon when not tanking and still be just as effective. The SDs will have plenty of feats to keep alternatives open, and the DoS will have exalted smites. Just know when to use the shield, and when to put it away (much like Rangers have to learn the critical moment of when to use a bow vs. when not to).