Build Concept: Holy Tank

[jakeelala]

So I've been throwing around ideas in my head the idea of a hybrid pally/FvS now that Angel of Vengence exists, I think there's good synergy. Paladins are good at getting beat on, and so are AoV's. I think the syngery between DoS and AoV could be a good one, though I'm hoping the stances can work at the same time. If they don't the build would have to go in another direction.

A few caveats up front: I have a lvl 20 Elf toon with a lot of good gear and +4 wis time I don't really want to lose, so instead of TR to get a more beneficial race, I would be sticking with elf for now. Also, she has a number of nice crafted (greensteel and cannith items) as well as a torq and some other goodies that might work well for this build.

So, requirements, at least for experimentation, would be longsword and TWF.

I'm leaning toward either a 14 Pal / 6 FvS split for AoVI, DoSII, and Zeal.
Or 12 Pal / 8 FvS for the all important Divine Power at Lvl 4. And finally, 12 Pal, 6 FvS, 2 Monk for evasion, feats and Wis bonus to saves, or 2 rogue for evasion and UMD.

I suppose the a flip could work with more FvS levels, and less pally, with more healing and spell casting at the expense of melee. For example, AoVII, Divine Punishment and Archon for more hate generation, and very strong self healing.

Anyway, I have little experience with Pally's, and some with experience with FvS with a WF Lord of Blades build, but haven't played him much since U9.

Any suggestions from the masters to make this work? Or is it a pipedream?

[EpiKagEMO]

First enhancement you should head for is divine sacrafices :D
im sure there are 12 fvs 6 pally 2 monk builds out there.

[ShadowFlash]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3780306#post3780306

here's my breakdown from that thread when I tried putting one of these together...some is relevant to you, some is not. being lvl 20 already and LRing works to your advantage as I would NOT want to level this up...way too many "wasted" levels...


Pros:

AoV Aura...nice with the -2 buff and awesome light de-buff for sweet Divine Sacrifices. However, I've yet to see comments on it proccing to higher stacks in typical play.

"Some" potential low-level buffing, but watching which spells stack with level progression is important.

Excellent Spell pool for the buffs you get from each class, considering the low pool Paladins usually get.

If your weapon of choice is one of the FvS's choices ya got that going for ya.

1 free persistent elemental resist 10. If you go FvS first, then most likely acid just for the sheer number of low-level acid traps. Your buffing will eventually replace this, but nice for leveling early.

You can actually have a decent Paladin Aura if you spec for it with 12 Levles, but AP's are very tight...something has got to suffer.

Exalted Smite II, Divine Might II and Divine Sacrifice II are all good breaking points and you should have the AP's for them.


Cons:

Pali 14 is so beneficial for holy sword and zeal ( you only have 1 slot, so spell swapping is mandatory ) but without the 2 monk, you'll lose the AC bonus and 2 feats. Doing AC the hard way is possible, but a lot more grinding.

Spell selection is actually pretty difficult considering you want to save the level progression ones for the higher class level paladin, and you'll run out of later level useful ones on the FvS

10 AP spent just for AoV, most of which are not useful to this type of build

Level progression stinks...you've got 6 levels adding not much later usefulness. Choosing where to take those levels is very tough. take them 1st to get your aura would be my guess...you still get your Paladin PrE @ 12, but any useful Paladin self buffs come so late and take to long to progress. At level 20 it won't matter, but the journey could be tough.

What it came down to for me, was what FvS brought to the table. The De-buff Aura was nice, but you don't get radiance guard on yourself. The buffing spells weren't worth it for me, considering Paladins get very useful ones ( personal only with the smaller pool ).

On the Surface I drooled on the apparent synergy, but working through the nitty-gritty of enhancements and feats, the mix just didn't seem to pull it's weight, even for a flavor build ( which I usually play ).

Consider Fighter Kensai I costs 11 AP vs AoV I's 10 AP and i think adds alot more to this kind of build, not to mention the 4 extra feats, better BAB and pre-req enhancement that are for more useful to a melee build.

[Battlehawke]

I haven't paid much thought to this build. But 6 DOS is probably the most powerful six levels in the game and you have to have 12 fvs to get AOV2, so that seems the most logical. Monk Synergy works very well with both Pally & FvS. And since you want Longswords, it seems like maybe the Whirling Blades/Monk thing might be a good idea, but I don't know much about it. The FvS has a Longsword deity too I belive which is even more damage. I'm going to go put all this together now.....and see..

[Battlehawke]

I played with this a little. I will have to sit down and fine tune it, but it looks pretty good. I got a lot to do to see if it is viable, but the DPS is pretty crazy when totalled. I didn't focus to hard on spells or hate aggro, but this is entertaining. I couldn't work in Empower Healing, Empower or Improved Crit: Slashing, which I would loved to have done. Improved Crit can just be replaced with two Min II Longswords. I was trying to figure out a way to get in some healing stuff to be a backup, effective healer, but not looking so good. I would probably get rid of the Pally Divine Sacrifice and get the FvS one instead to go tier two or three on it, and get rid of Sov Host on Pally side and get the Elven Longsword Enhancements, at least the Damage ones....

Looks like:
Good saves
Good DPS while wielding the Dual Long Swords with Smites, Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might Running as well as your Arcon and Divine Punishement.
Good AC (Icy Raments, +8 Bracers, CE, +4 Deflection, +3 Dodge, +7 Wis, +8 Dex, +2 Shield Spell, blah blah blah)




Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Holy Avenger
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(6 Paladin / 2 Monk / 12 Favored Soul)
Hit Points: 469 Total 314 (base) +60(Con6) +30 (GFL) +10 (Argo), +10
(Tough), +45 (Shroud)
Spell Points: 1153

BAB: 16/16/21/2626
Fortitude: 34
Reflex: 32
Will: 32

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 26
Dexterity 15 26
Constitution 14 22
Intelligence 11 14
Wisdom 12 24
Charisma 12 22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 15
Bluff 1 3
Concentration 6 29
Diplomacy 1 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 3
Heal 1 4
Hide 2 5
Intimidate 5 30
Jump 2 6
Listen 1 6
Move Silently 2 5
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 2
Search 0 4
Spot 1 6
Swim 2 5
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Whirling Steel Strike

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II

Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancemennt: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I

Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Deity) Favored by the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Smiting I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I

Level 10 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma I

Level 11 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic I

Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Favored Soul Smiting II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom I

Level 13 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Acid
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II

Level 14 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Life I

Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma II

Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Favored Soul Smiting III

Level 17 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Smiting II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom II

Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Favored Soul Smiting IV

Level 19 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Smiting II

Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Enhancement: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III

[ShadowFlash]

@ Battlehawke...

I'm a little confused on a few things. Why bother with whirling steel Strike at all ? does being offensivly centered actually bring any more to the table than access to a different feat ? ( assumes moving TWF to the monk bonus feat, thereby freeing up a regular feat slot. You mention swapping Divine sacrifice for the FvS one....which one is that ? Divine Sacrifice is about the ONLY thing that makes the pali synergize with AoV IMO. Where is this crazy DPS coming from ? I just don't see it. There's no way I'd level this up either waiting until 20 for Blade Barrier. Without completely maxing the smiting line, your 2 good boss worthy offensive spells ( searing light and Divine Punishment ), already gimped due to only 12 FvS levels, will not be as effective. If you max the lines, then I'd agree, they still could be viable. You do realize that the FvS smiting line only improves SPELLS right? and NOT exalted smites. The only thing that helps there is the light vulnerability proc from AoV. You also will not have the light guard, as that only works when you Name someone else champion, NOT on yourself. If you're counting on the -% stacking de-buff, I doubt it will proc more than 1 or 2 tiers in anything other than a long drawn out boss fight. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this work, I'm just not seeing the value. When you get around to spell selection, you'll understand even more difficulties just in buffing.

[Battlehawke]

Shadowflash,

I'm still working on this build, which obviously I said is not perfected and even when it is may not be tops at anything. I just through this together to see if we could make it work. Usually when people ask for help with a build, I try to steer them in the right direction and not tear their ideas completely apart. Just because a toon isn't the best at something in particular doesnt make it a horrible build. While this one needs a lot of work, I did just try to throw the concept together to see if it was even doable. These guys have been working on it for a while it seems. Maybe you could actually present a playable blend that is what the OP wants that would actually work better within the parameters that he wants. That would be helpful. Fell very free to help out...thanks

[ShadowFlash]

Shadowflash,

I'm still working on this build, which obviously I said is not perfected and even when it is may not be tops at anything. I just through this together to see if we could make it work. These guys have been working on it for a while it seems. Maybe instead of telling us what we can't do and how bad what I put together is (and it is right now), maybe, just maybe you could help out with the original intent of the post and actually help.....maybe....otherwise....you can rip builds up all day.....so can I...

I am truly sorry to come off like that...it is certainly not my intent. I have tried and tried quite a bit to make it work, and I'm at a complete loss. I would absolutely LOVE a build with this theme. One of my major caveats is leveling progression....it just plain stinks. I'm not attempting to "rip" the idea...I just haven't figured out how to make the concept work, and was trying to contribute the shortcomings I've found while trying many different variations. Whatever we come up with will not be Max anything, and I'm waayyy cool with that...games are fun, and i have fun playing em.

An angle that I haven't thought about until now, and this thread in fact brought up the concept, is leveling a build in such a way to make use of 1 or 2 LR+3's to spec INTO it at higher levels. It's expensive to be sure, but it just may work.

I personally think the 14 paladin/6 FvS has the greatest potential. The only thing I'd want from AoV is covered in the 1st tier as offensive spell casting would be ditched in favor of melee with the aura. Maximizing Divine Sacrifice would be the goal in this case. An AC defender TWFing build would be my personal wish, but not too uber AC, as you still wanna take some hits to proc the light de-buff. This should work nicely to reduce uber-gear grind and provide alternate modes of use. I would envision a low 60ish AC in self-buffed TWFing mode, and mid 70ish AC in defensive mode. I think this is relatively easy to achieve ( for an AC build ). Throwing Monk into the mix here sounds great, but i think it's too stat dependant for a paladin and I prefer to work in 14 paladin for zeal.

The 12 FvS/6 Paladin/2 monk shows potential as well, but I don't think paladin 6 adds enough melee potential, and being 12 FvS, you'd be more light spell based and I don't know that DoS adds enough survivability to make it worth while. Coming from a battle-cleric type background, I just think it gives up too much. Not to mention the FvS icon will get you in trouble, as there is NO AP room for healing specs.

I suppose it's what flavor you want...melee or light based spellcasting. I'll make ya a deal...you work on the 12 FvS attempt since that's what ya got going already, and I'll work on the 12 min. paladin attempt since it's what I got going....then we'll compare notes...sound fair enough ???

As far as not trying to be helpful, I've actually been sitting here for the past couple hours in the planner re-visiting this concept....I'm trying to make it work, I really am....I live for these strange builds and am more than happy to work builds out for hours on end. For me, It's just as fun as playing 'em :)

[ShadowFlash]

Quick question to the OP ( who hasn't responded yet to any posts ).....

If you're not TRing and want to do this, are we assuming you'll be spending a fortune and waiting a long time to stack multiple LR+3's into turning the toon into something completely different? That's kinda how I read your OP. If so, It would help to know what build you're coming from to minimize TR costs and LR progression layouts. A +4 WIS tome certainly favors the monk splash, but are you really prepared to give up zeal ? In a 14/6 split, the +4 WIS would simply net you more SP...does seem like a waste to me, but it's a tough choice. Battlehawke may have an easier time dealing with this caveat, as a 12 FvS version has more room to splash monk and at least get DoS I.

And I have to assume this is a 32-pointer..

Edit: if this is to be multiple LR'ed...waht other tomes have you taken, as it makes a huge difference in planning and you'll get incremental credit for them as you insta-level. I.E. a +2 CHA tome will apply +1 at level 1, and another +1 at level 7. Intelligence tomes would be a huge question as well.

[ShadowFlash]

It's getting late here, but this is what I have so far. I sacrificed zeal, and tried to max AC potential. I took decent concentration for mid-fight buffing and emergency healing, UMD for RR gear, and maxed intimidate for that option added to the natural hate gen of paladin. For some reason, the Character Generator borked up and never let me select Child of the Sovereign Host at FvS level 3, but it should be there to boost longswords. Notable Enhancements include maxing elven longsword line, Devotion III ( AoV required a meta, so maximize was chosen for half-***'d cures to top off between shrines...healing amp gear recommended ), Smiting Pre-Req's for AoV would lend itself to a weak-sauce no-save searing light/nimbus of light ranged option ( haven't done the math ), Divine Sacrifice II and Exalted Smite II (both acceptable breaking points), and Divine Might II.

There's both Combat Expertise with monk WIS-to-AC bonus and Power Attack for dual mode operation. Dos II and Aov I. Evasion ( usable with a heavy shield ). 4 Lay-on-hands. 6 Exalted Smites. 3 Remove Disease. 9 turn-undeads ( also used for Magic Circle, Shield of Faith, and DMII ) .+4 AC aura. and a slew of other stuff.

level 18 Imp. Crit: Slashing I'd be tempted to change to shield mastery for damage mitigation in defensive mode, especially if using recommended MinII's. Longswords are definately not my 1st choice here and I would consider making rapiers to make use of the same elven enhancement line. Paladin clickies LOVE the crit range. Using the wierd longsword from the reign of madness line along with the turbulent epee from the harbinger of madness line would be an easy option while waiting to craft GS rapiers and both would benefit from elf.

I don't have spell selection worked out yet ( PITA ), and final AC potential ( which on 1st glance seems decent ). I'll work out the nitty-gritty's and pro's and con's tomorrow and post again. The good news is with the torc the OP has and a rather large spell pool, emergency healing should be feasible. I don't know the math on the SP boost from items with a 6 level FvS splash, so I could use some help there.

This is only a rough draft, and I'll revise it more.





Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

jakeelala test build
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(12 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 6 Favored Soul)
Hit Points: 326
Spell Points: 732
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 22
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 9 14
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 8
Bluff 2 3
Concentration 4 21
Diplomacy 2 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 3
Heal 0 2
Hide 3 4
Intimidate 4 26
Jump 3 6
Listen 0 4
Move Silently 3 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 1 3
Spot 0 4
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 5
Use Magic Device 4 14

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Deity) Favored by the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire


Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Smiting I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Smiting II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II