Why can my barb hit better with a dagger than with a bow?

[RandomKeypress]

Hi - just started a horc barbarian - he's level 6 atm and I decided to treat him to a nice shiny silver bow as a levelling present. The problem is that he is awful with it - his to-hit bonus is +16. In comparison, he has a +3 returning dagger with a to-hit bonus of +26. As far as I can tell, they both use dex stat for to-hit (and my barb isn't very dextrous), but can someone explain to me why there's such a massive difference in their chance to hit? Thanks.

[domandi]

Well, first of all, do you have weapon finesse feat?

If you don't, then you area actually using your strength for your to hit with the dagger.

All but a few melee weapons use strength for hitting. The weapon finesse feat allows you to use your dex for hit on "light weapons" like daggers, light maces, etc.

Not only that, but normally bows add your dex modifier to dmg unless you have the bow strength feat.

[Emili]

Well, first of all, do you have weapon finesse feat?

If you don't, then you area actually using your strength for your to hit with the dagger.

All but a few melee weapons use strength for hitting. The weapon finesse feat allows you to use your dex for hit on "light weapons" like daggers, light maces, etc.

Not only that, but normally bows add your dex modifier to dmg unless you have the bow strength feat.

Finesse uses dex stat for a few melee weapons instead of using str. Also Dex does not get added to damage on anything save a couple special named weapons which state such. Finesse does nothing for thrown.

[Simplesimon1979]

I'm guessing you picked up the feat brutal throw which lets you use your STR instead of DEX for throwing weapons.
So if the need arises that you need a ranged weapon your best bet will be a returning weapon

http://ddowiki.com/page/Brutal_Throw

[Aesop]

Well, first of all, do you have weapon finesse feat?

If you don't, then you area actually using your strength for your to hit with the dagger.

All but a few melee weapons use strength for hitting. The weapon finesse feat allows you to use your dex for hit on "light weapons" like daggers, light maces, etc.

Not only that, but normally bows add your dex modifier to dmg unless you have the bow strength feat.

Need to correct some information here.


Weapon Finesse only allows Dexterity to apply to "to hit" bonus IF the characters Strength score is lower than their Dex Score. Also only for light weapons and special Finesse weapons.

Dexterity NEVER applies to ranged damage only ranged "to hit"

Bow Strength add strength to Bow Damage without Bow Strength you DO NOT apply any stat bonus to Bow Damage.

To confuse the issue slightly Zen Archery changes the "to hit" bonus from Dexterity to Wisdom.


Brutal Throw changes the "to hit" bonus with Thrown weapons from Dexterity to Strength. Thrown weapons always apply the characters Strength Bonus to damage

Aesop

[markusthelion]

You are a barb, put the bow in the trash and pick up the biggest, meanest, heaviest Axe you can find and SMASH things with it!

[Vellrad]

You are a barb, put the bow in the trash and pick up the biggest, meanest, heaviest Axe you can find and SMASH things with it!

This,
If you need to attack mob you can't reach in meele, use some thrower.

[bandyman1]

Well, first of all, do you have weapon finesse feat?

If you don't, then you area actually using your strength for your to hit with the dagger.

All but a few melee weapons use strength for hitting. The weapon finesse feat allows you to use your dex for hit on "light weapons" like daggers, light maces, etc.

Not only that, but normally bows add your dex modifier to dmg unless you have the bow strength feat.

Lol, and this is why general/advice chat in the Harbor/Marketplace is such a mess.

If you don't know the answer to a question, for the love of God, just let someone else answer it!!!

Weapon finesse is completely irrelevant when we are talking about a ranged weapon. The feat only works with unarmed attacks, light melee weapons, or a rapier.

Bows NEVER add your Dex modifier to damage.

[RandomKeypress]

Thanks for the help everyone. I don't have the brutal throw feat, but for some reason the throwing dagger and throwing axe are both using strength as their to-hit modifier. Which is nice.
I'm only using ranged weapons when I have to - Carnifex gets jealous otherwise.

[domandi]

Brandy, take a freakin pill man. I admit, I was wrong about dex to dmg with bows, my bad. But I was right about everything else. I was just trying to help. I am sure you have been 100% right on every thing you have ever said on the internet? dude, seriously.

Aesop is right, finesse only applies if your dex is higher than your str, but then if your str was that much higher, you prolly wouldn't have finesse in the first place.

[fluffybunnywilson]

You are a barb, put the bow in the trash and pick up the biggest, meanest, heaviest Axe you can find and SMASH things with it!

Mauls, falchions, greatswords, chairs and Halflings are also acceptable alternatives to Axes since Update 9.

[Arkadios]

Mauls, falchions, greatswords, chairs and Halflings are also acceptable alternatives to Axes since Update 9.

Halflings have always been acceptable.

[sephiroth1084]

Noticed this a while ago with thrown weapons on my barbarian as well. Seems like barbs are getting Brutal Throw for free.

[bandyman1]

Bandy, take a freakin pill man. I admit, I was wrong about dex to dmg with bows, my bad. But I was right about everything else. I was just trying to help. I am sure you have been 100% right on every thing you have ever said on the internet? dude, seriously.

Aesop is right, finesse only applies if your dex is higher than your str, but then if your str was that much higher, you prolly wouldn't have finesse in the first place.

Umm, no. You weren't.

I'll say it again; Finesse has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with ranged weapons.

Why? Because a throwing dagger, a throwing axe, and a throwing hammer ( which are the only versions of those weapons that can be thrown in this game ) all use Dex for the to-hit modifier, unless the toon has brutal throw. It doesn't matter if the toon has weapon finesse, doesn't have weapon finesse, or has a Str of 40 and a Dex of 2.

So, what were you right about again???


I understand that you were " just trying to help ". Apparently, that's what all the noobs in general/harbor/marketplace chat that are spamming totally wrong info are trying to do as well. What they're accomplishing however, is us seeing more and more peeps at higher levels, with no ****ing clue about basic game mechanics.

Us vets understand that you newer players to the game are excited, and want to help. That's great, and we want to to come to love the game as much as we have. But if people are making the effort to be informed, and you're not sure how something works yourself, just leave it to us to answer their questions truthfully, instead of sewing more confusion.

[domandi]

Well, let me start by taking my foot out of my mouth.

I missed the part where he said "returning" dagger. I thought he was talking normal dagger, as in melee hit. So I was trying to make the point that melee hit and ranged hit were different. But that is not important anymore since I was off topic.

So, I agree that finesse has nothing to do with thrown weapons, and I apologize for the confusion I caused.

But you also have to chill with the way you talk to "noobs". Makes you come off as arrogant. You could have stated your original point (to me) in a much more productive manner.

[kmau]

If you need to attack mob you can't reach in meele, use some thrower.

NO! Barb needs to press MORE W !!

[cunjar]

I wonder if they will ever let us throw our axes at the mobs XD

[ragwa1]

You are a barb, put the bow in the trash and pick up the biggest, meanest, heaviest Axe you can find and SMASH things with it!

Why people always recommend picking up an axe is beyond me.

A falchion or even a greatsword is miles ahead in terms of dps given the crit profiles.

[Doxmaster]

domandi V bandy

I think I'll side with Bandy here as his information was accurate. He could have used a...softer touch in his corrections, yes, but the spread of misinformation has become quite a problem indeed.

I have often recieved such information when fact checking what I presume happens in DDo vs what I know to happen in PNP...upon doing more research, as almost all questions were answered at some point by someone, the information proves to be incorrect in both DDo and PNP, leaving me to wonder where it is coming from.

[Khellendros13]

Why people always recommend picking up an axe is beyond me.

A falchion or even a greatsword is miles ahead in terms of dps given the crit profiles.

Ahead on 0% fort yes, miles no.

+70dmg mid, +6 seeker

Lit2 Falchion
Final Averaged Swing
124.05 = 99.85 + 24.2

Lit2 Greataxe
Final Averaged Swing
118.03 = 94.38 + 23.65

+4 Holyburst Silver Greater Lawful Outsider Bane versions Vs 50% Fort

Falchion
Final Averaged Swing
107.38 = 87.6 + 19.78

Greataxe
Final Averaged Swing
102.4 = 84.38 + 18.03

Most people saying Greataxe are from pre U9 where x3 or x4 crit multi ruled Epic. These days Falchion or Greatsword is a viable alternative, and yes Falchion is higher DPS than Greataxe, around 5%. Adding another 20dmg to the dmg mod, only moves the Falchion ahead another 1pt.

I would recommend Greatsword for a Kensai as it will make for a cheaper/seamless upgrade to ESoS.

Overall Falchion wins for a Barbarian, but what if you are a Dwarf?

Another +4dmg per swing will look like...

Falchion
Final Averaged Swing
107.38 = 87.6 + 19.78

Greataxe
Final Averaged Swing
106.6 = 88.58 + 18.03

Interesting, thought the extra 1 or 2 to-hit will put the Dwarf ahead if they are not near max geared IMO.

I wont say that an Elf Barbarian has more DPS than a Dwarf...I think the forums would explode :)

Oops off topic...

[Khanyth]

Hi - just started a horc barbarian - he's level 6 atm and I decided to treat him to a nice shiny silver bow as a levelling present. The problem is that he is awful with it - his to-hit bonus is +16. In comparison, he has a +3 returning dagger with a to-hit bonus of +26. As far as I can tell, they both use dex stat for to-hit (and my barb isn't very dextrous), but can someone explain to me why there's such a massive difference in their chance to hit? Thanks.

Simple:

Barbs have huge hands (and other parts, but that's for another topic) and our huge fingers and uber powerful crushing grip simply shatter those teeny tiny bows, regardless of the material the bow is made out of. So we lose a hit roll because the bow simply can't handle the awesomeness of being in the hands of a barb.


Why people always recommend picking up an axe is beyond me.

A falchion or even a greatsword is miles ahead in terms of dps given the crit profiles.

Because I'm a dwarf and I don't want to look uncool. Falchions are for elves.